0:00

- <silence> - Welcome to the Landscape, your show about America's parks

0:09

and public lands. I'm Erin Weiss with the Center

0:12

for Western Priorities in Denver. We've made it through second false spring.

0:16

Maybe this is the real one now. Uh, we can hope as we head into April.

0:21

- And I'm Kate Retinger in Salt Lake City.

0:24

Today on the podcast, we're talking to author Betsy Gaines Kwaman.

0:27

Betsy has written two books about public lands in the West

0:30

and is one of the foremost experts on public lands extremism.

0:34

We're super excited to share that conversation with you.

0:36

But first, some news. - The Bureau of Land Management released its final methane

0:42

waste rule this week, bringing years of legal

0:45

and administrative wrangling to a close.

0:48

We hope. Methane, of course, is a powerful greenhouse gas.

0:51

It's the main component of natural gas.

0:54

It's often produced as a byproduct of oil production

0:57

and fracking, since it is so much cheaper than oil

1:01

companies sometimes waste it by either burning it off

1:05

or releasing it straight into the air, rather than trying

1:08

to capture and sell it. Well. This new BLM rule requires companies to

1:13

reimburse taxpayers when they waste methane paying royalties

1:17

when that methane is vented or flared.

1:20

The new rule also requires companies that drill on federal land to take steps

1:24

to reduce their meth methane waste by limiting their venting

1:28

and flaring and fixing leaks on the front end.

1:31

Now, this BLM rule really compliments a nationwide rule from

1:35

the Environmental Protection Agency that was released in December,

1:39

also aimed at reducing methane waste across the entire

1:42

oil and gas sector. Now, just a quick flag.

1:46

We are expecting a very busy month ahead

1:49

for public land management. BLM needs to roll out a bunch of stuff

1:53

that we've already talked about on this podcast, oil

1:55

and gas rules, conservation, restoration leasing.

1:59

Uh, they just finalized another rule today about

2:02

broadband infrastructure. We are, of course, keeping track of all of this.

2:07

We will wrap it up for you sometime within the next month,

2:10

because honestly, there is so much happening right now.

2:13

Even I have trouble, uh, keeping track of it.

2:17

Also, a quick note that if you are heading to the Society

2:20

of Environmental Journalists Conference in Philadelphia next

2:24

week, track us down. Kate and I are both going to be there ready

2:28

to talk about all of these upcoming rules.

2:31

So we'd love to grab coffee and give you the rundown.

2:34

- Also, we've got a new video out in our Road

2:37

to 30 postcard series. This one is about the proposed Chuck Walla National Monument

2:41

in Southern California. The proposal would protect approximately 600,000 acres just

2:46

south of Joshua Tree National Park,

2:49

and is named for the Chuck Walla Lizard, one

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of the species found in the region. Establishing the monument would help ensure more equitable

2:56

access to nature for local communities

2:58

and safeguard biodiversity, wildlife habitat

3:01

and wildlife migration corridors. We spoke to three community leaders about the proposed

3:06

monument in the video, which you can find linked in the show notes.

3:12

Our guest today is author Betsy Gaines Kwaman.

3:15

Betsy has written two books about public lands extremism in the West.

3:19

Her first American Zion looks at the connection

3:21

between Mormonism and Extremism. Her second book, which came out last year,

3:26

digs into the myths that define the West.

3:28

Betsy, thanks so much for being with us today. - I am so glad to be here, Kate

3:32

and Erin, it's just a, a delight,

3:35

so thank you for having me. - Awesome. Well, we are very excited to have you here.

3:39

Your name comes up a lot in our meetings,

3:42

and we were like, finally, we said, wow,

3:44

we should really just call her up <laugh>.

3:47

Um, so tell me how you first became interested in this topic

3:50

of public land extremism. Well,

3:53

- It's kind of weird. So I started out in conservation.

3:56

My master's degree is in conservation policy from Montana

4:00

State University, actually, environmental studies.

4:03

Um, but I learned all the great acronyms back there, nepa,

4:08

flipma, um, all the things, and became really, really interested in public lands

4:14

and public land law and the way

4:16

that public lands were being managed. My heart is in conservation, uh, wildlife, you know,

4:23

public lands as, as we've mentioned. And, um, and I really felt like, uh, we were

4:30

as conservationists, uh, preaching to the converted

4:33

and we weren't building broader coalitions.

4:35

And I thought that that was really important to think about.

4:37

So I became very interested in how

4:41

various cultures see landscape

4:44

and in particular religious ways of seeing landscapes.

4:47

So I began working in Mongolia with, um,

4:52

Mongolian monks who were interested in protecting

4:54

rivers and fisheries. I worked with, uh, mon,

4:58

or excuse me, Bhutanese monks, um, on

5:01

snow leopard conservation. Again, looking at how they viewed landscape

5:06

and wildlife as sin sentient beings as sacred.

5:10

Uh, and that was a very easy group of folks

5:16

to, to work with. And, and it was, it was fun.

5:18

They, they had a great interest in conservation biology

5:23

and in, um, you know, really seeing landscape as, as a very,

5:28

very important and, and rivers

5:30

and wildlife as important things to,

5:32

to protect and take care of. I came back and decided that I wanted to do a dissertation.

5:39

And, uh, initially I thought about, well, I'll, I'll do something in Mongolia or Bhutan,

5:43

but I couldn't read primary texts.

5:45

It would've taken me 10 years to get up to speed on that.

5:49

So I thought, well, what can I do in my own backyard

5:52

that it sort of takes on religious ways of seeing landscape?

5:56

And lo and behold, I decided to look at Latter Day Saints theology

6:02

and began to look at early Mormon settlement.

6:05

Um, and they had a very different way

6:08

of looking at landscape. There were, there were sort of shades

6:13

of Joseph Smith talking about the importance of utilization

6:17

and building the city of Zion to please the eye of God.

6:21

So it was the idea of building landscape rather than keeping it, uh,

6:25

intact as is. But also Brigham Young had, uh, real sort of environmental,

6:31

um, foresight and,

6:34

and talked about keeping places protected.

6:36

So it, the, the Mormon culture

6:41

has different ways of seeing landscape, but when I started to look about, uh, look at public lands

6:47

and the Sagebrush Rebellion and the Bundy family in particular,

6:50

they really were embracing these early church ways of seeing

6:56

land as a place that needed to be built, utilized, uh, and,

7:00

and, um, and altered in order to,

7:04

to become sacred. - And, and that brings us to your first, first book,

7:10

which was American Zion. It focuses on the Bundy family.

7:15

Uh, a lot of folks are obviously familiar with

7:19

the first and second Bundy,

7:21

standoffs Bunkerville in Nevada at Clive Ands Ranch was, uh,

7:25

well, 10 years ago. Uh, what a lot of folks don't realize is there is that

7:32

theological connection. Uh, what was that like visiting the,

7:37

the Bundys at their ranch and exploring that with them?

7:42

- So, American Zion is a version of my dissertation,

7:45

which I very much hope isn't as boring

7:49

as my actual dissertation was <laugh>.

7:52

I wouldn't wish reading that on anyone.

7:55

Um, but, uh, yeah, I went and visited the Bundys a year

7:59

after what is known as the Battle of Bunkerville.

8:02

And so at 10 year anniversary, uh, of this standoff,

8:07

when Cliven pulled in, uh,

8:10

militia groups from all over the country to, um,

8:14

standoff against law enforcement

8:17

and BLM, uh, who were working to confiscate his cows

8:21

that were in trespass, he hadn't paid grazing fees in 20 years.

8:25

He'd had a number of fines stack up.

8:27

He owed over a million dollars. And so the government after this had been in the courts

8:33

for years and years and years and years. Finally, um, a judge issued a confiscation order, and, uh,

8:39

and as a result, this became a big galvanizing event

8:44

in, um, you know, sort of modern militia culture.

8:48

I went to talk to, uh, Clive and a year before Ryan

8:53

and Amman went and did the takeover of the Malhere Wildlife Refuge.

8:58

So this was in 2015.

9:01

And, uh, and I went to talk to him specifically about his religious points of view

9:06

and why he believes that his

9:11

religious war, which this is something,

9:13

this is his language, uh, is very much justified

9:17

by early church doctrine.

9:19

He, he talks about the Constitution as a sacred document.

9:24

He says it's divinely inspired, and this is, I'm quoting him here,

9:27

which basically means j Jesus wrote the Constitution.

9:31

He, uh, talks about this importance of, um, and,

9:36

and this is kind of apocryphal, this, this idea of the,

9:39

the White Horse prophecy. Uh, it's not really, um, certain

9:45

that Joseph Smith said this, but essentially there was this idea

9:48

that when the Constitution is hanging by a thread, uh,

9:52

Mormon heroes will come to its rescue,

9:55

and that's something that motivates him.

9:57

And the other thing that I think is really interesting is

10:01

that when Clive and talked about, uh, his, um,

10:05

you know, entitlement to the land, he talked about a hypothetical ancestor,

10:12

and he talked about that ancestor coming

10:15

and the horse drinks in the Virgin River

10:18

and creates a quote unquote beneficial use.

10:21

And again, that starts to tie into water law,

10:25

but it also, to me, was very evident in this telling

10:29

of the story that his history begins

10:33

with the first Mormon settler the day before.

10:37

It was a Southern Paiute river. So the, the history really begins

10:42

with white settlement rather than understanding that this is

10:47

indigenous land that, that he, um, he is living on.

10:52

- So you sort of got into this next question I wanted

10:55

to ask, which is to describe the connection

10:58

between the LDS religion and Public Lands extremism

11:00

and the Sagebrush Rebellion. They're all kind of tied up,

11:03

but this is not all LDS folks, right?

11:07

This is kind of an offshoot. Can you say more about that?

11:11

- Sure. And, and, uh, I think it's really important, Kate,

11:14

to make that, um, point in the sense that the,

11:17

the church doesn't condone what the Bundys are doing,

11:21

although they justify their actions based on their

11:24

particular understanding of their faith.

11:28

But no, it's not all LDSI do in American Zion

11:33

make, it's my thesis that one

11:37

of the reasons why there's such an ardent, uh, you know,

11:41

sort of movement on the part of some LDS,

11:45

particularly in rural places, southern Idaho

11:48

and southern Nevada, is that there is this idea

11:52

that Joseph Smith said Zion.

11:56

Zion was, um, and that's promised land

11:58

or sacred land, uh, is something

12:01

that God was going to give the Mormons.

12:03

And when he made this prophecy, they were in Missouri,

12:07

and there was a lot of, um, militia, uh,

12:11

action in Missouri on the part of the mobber,

12:14

quote unquote the, the Missouri militia who were

12:18

fighting the Mormons, because they were, some

12:20

of them were abolitionists, and they were really worried that this, um,

12:24

abolitionist contingent was going to vote to prevent some

12:29

of these folks that, that wanted to, um, have people

12:32

that they'd enslaved continue to be, you know, uh, legal.

12:38

So the, the Mormons, um, ended up,

12:40

or the Latter Day Saints left and went to Illinois to Navu, taking with them this idea

12:46

of Zion, this idea of promised land that,

12:49

that Joseph Smith said God had given them.

12:52

And when Joseph Smith was assassinated,

12:54

Brigham Young took the idea of Zion with him

12:57

to the Great Basin and the Colorado Plateau,

13:00

and initially tried to set up this empire called Desere,

13:03

which spanned from Oregon down to Mexico.

13:07

And, uh, and this idea that, um,

13:11

this was promised land, I think really continues to,

13:15

to influence the way some latter day saints see public land.

13:21

And, and I think it is a layer in this,

13:24

and I, I think that, you know, the state's rights movements,

13:29

although they weren't solely, um, LDS, I think

13:33

that there was this intimacy, this, this, um, this real

13:37

notion that this is their land, uh,

13:41

based in part on early Mormon church theology.

13:46

- A a and you touched on this, obviously, this was all indigenous land

13:50

before LDS showed up.

13:54

So how, in their theology, and,

13:56

and if this gets back to beneficial use, uh, how,

13:59

how in in their theology do they justify

14:02

taking the land from the southern PA in the case of,

14:05

of Nevada or throughout, uh,

14:08

throughout the Kingdom of Deseret? How does that work theologically for

14:13

th these Bundy type extremists? - Yeah, and I, I talk about this in, in American Zion,

14:19

that the idea of, in particular, let, let's talk about Clive

14:23

and, uh, and Gold Butte and his idea of the hypothetical first Mormon settler.

14:29

So the, the Mormon folks came to these areas

14:34

that were overlooked by other, uh, white,

14:37

you know, colonists. These were really remote lands.

14:40

They weren't particularly productive. They were very hard to, to settle.

14:46

Um, the, the Southern Paiute had been much more effective

14:50

at, at operating in these areas

14:52

because they would move with, uh, the, the game

14:57

and with, um, different types of harvest.

15:00

And they were utilizing the land in a much,

15:03

much better way than Mormon settlers who were coming.

15:06

And, and, you know, they were sedentary <laugh>.

15:10

They were, they were, um, creating, um, farms

15:13

and ranches around water sources.

15:16

And, um, and so this was their idea of promised land.

15:21

This was what God had given them. The Southern Paiute had an idea

15:24

that this was their sacred land, and this was land that was stingy in some ways

15:30

that couldn't accommodate two different cultures, ideas

15:34

of sacred land, so many of the Southern Paiute starved.

15:39

And, uh, and it's, I mean, it's a really heartbreaking history.

15:42

Um, and, and again, you know, when,

15:46

when this indigenous group was really,

15:49

the Southern Paiute were really counting,

15:51

counting on water sources, and all of a sudden Mormon settlements were, uh,

15:56

you know, co-opting them.

15:59

And, and that was enormously problematic and, and tragic.

16:05

Now I've forgotten the rest of your question, - <laugh>, the notion of beneficial use, then how, okay.

16:11

- Thank you. Thank you. So that, that I'm afraid, you know,

16:14

when you look at different ways of utilizing the land,

16:17

the Southern Paiute and the Latter Day Saints, there,

16:22

there was this notion that if you utilize that,

16:27

if you, if you farmed, you were somehow

16:31

doing something that was more productive than, um,

16:35

communities that, that were moving around on a landscape,

16:40

um, rather than settling landscape - In, in a divine sense, that, that God gives you the right

16:46

to the land because you are settling on it as opposed

16:49

to a more nomadic, uh, lifestyle. Is that the

16:54

- Yeah, and I, I mean, I would even say that, um,

16:56

that again, it goes back to what we talked about a few minutes ago, that God

17:02

is delighted, his eye is delighted by a built environment.

17:06

So if there is utilization, if there is cultivation

17:10

that's pleasing God in a way that leaving the land as is

17:15

or are, are actually, I mean, we know

17:17

that indigenous communities were farming, they were,

17:21

they were utilizing lands. They, they, they weren't building permanent structures.

17:27

Um, and, uh, and so there was this idea on the part

17:31

of early Mormon settlers and, and an idea that continues to perpetuate that,

17:37

that the early Mormon settlers

17:39

and Mormons today are, are utilizing the land in a

17:44

somehow better way. Yeah. - And, and that Utah's state motto today still is

17:49

- Industry it Yes. <laugh>. Yeah, very much is. Yeah.

17:51

Um, um, so I wanna circle it back to the Bundys.

17:56

Um, they're super interesting

17:58

because they pop up all around the west kind

18:00

of capitalizing on and fomenting discontent

18:03

with the government in different ways and places like, um, am Amman recently getting in

18:09

that legal spat with the hospital and protesting a child abuse case, <laugh>.

18:14

Um, uh, how did they become

18:17

so radicalized against the government?

18:19

Like, I'm curious why their activism has broken out

18:23

of just sort of the ranching public lands realm, and

18:26

and why do you think they're so good at organizing

18:28

and motivating people to take up arms with them?

18:32

- I've thought a lot about this, and when I met with the Bundys,

18:36

I really saw them as outliers. And so that was in 2015.

18:40

And what's happened, I think in the last several years

18:46

as the journalist, uh, Todd Wilkinson says he's seen the ification of the West.

18:52

And I would argue that we've seen the Ification

18:54

of America in some ways.

18:56

And so in, in True West, I look at how the Battle

19:01

of Bunkerville, that event in 2014, uh,

19:05

became in some ways the beginning of a trajectory

19:08

for some folks to get to January 6th.

19:14

And, and how this event was particularly galvanizing,

19:17

particularly to, to Stewart Rhodes, who is the head

19:22

or, you know, was the head of the Oath Keepers and now in prison for 18 years,

19:26

and he was involved in the Battle of Bunkerville.

19:29

I also think that, you know, again, as I said,

19:32

I saw these fa, this family as outliers.

19:34

They've actually been really front

19:36

and center now in American pop culture.

19:39

I don't know if you all have seen Season five of Fargo,

19:44

but, uh, John Ham plays a constitutional sheriff,

19:47

and he refers to Amon, and he refers to LaVoy Finicum in this very

19:52

popular television show. So, so it's something that, that they have really,

19:57

they have really risen to these levels of, of pop culture.

20:02

They, there's a great deal of adoration, uh, out there

20:07

for what the Bundy family did in terms

20:09

of taking on the government. Again, it was kind of the, the whole appeal of David

20:14

and Goliath and, uh, and so I think that that really, uh, created, uh, um,

20:21

a great deal of, of support for them,

20:23

but also created momentum in, in the militia movement.

20:28

And, um, and in terms of, uh,

20:31

why they're particularly successful, I,

20:36

I, you know, it's, first of all, they got away with it.

20:39

They, they got away with both Mal here, and they got away with, um,

20:42

the event in the standoff in Nevada, in Mal here in Oregon.

20:47

They were acquitted. This was Amon and Ryan, uh, in Nevada.

20:52

There was, there was a mistrial declared,

20:55

and that was Amon Ryan and, um, Cliven.

20:59

And so they've been able to get away with it. In terms of this St.

21:03

Luke's thing, this actually is something,

21:06

and this is the hospital invoice. This is the hospital invoicing we're jumping ahead with.

21:09

Sorry about that. Yeah. So this is what I've come to kind

21:13

of think about Amon. I talked to Amon at the beginning of Pandemic,

21:19

and so it was in March of 2020,

21:22

and he was kind of hot under the collar about restrictions

21:27

that involved private businesses

21:30

and the limits of, uh, are, are you, you know, the, the,

21:33

the sort of shutdown of gathering for worship.

21:36

So essentially gathering, being in places in public

21:40

and how that was impacting churches and businesses at the time.

21:45

He said, you know, I don't believe in any of

21:47

that other stuff alluding to Q Anon.

21:50

Um, because, you know, that's when Q Anon was really starting to kind

21:55

of put its tentacles into the, the COV pandemic, uh,

22:00

misinformation, sort of, you know, social media stuff,

22:04

a perfect storm of conspiracy theories, right? Right. And, and, uh, at the time he said, no, uh, uh,

22:08

that's not something that he believes in, although a number of sup his supporters did.

22:13

And, but he made that specific point to me, I think that

22:17

Amon, unlike Cliven, who I really, truly believe

22:23

buys all of this, the, the religious layer, the, the fact

22:26

that he is meant to be fighting this battle, the fact

22:29

that the government doesn't or can't have public land or can't own it.

22:33

I think that Amon saw this as this opportunity to

22:38

build a big coalition to run for governor of Idaho

22:42

to raise money. And I think he embraced these kind of Q Anon pieces.

22:47

And, and again, the St. Luke's piece that you talked about, Kate, this is a hospital

22:53

that, um, that was looking at this malnourished

22:58

child, baby Cyrus. And this happened to be the grandchild of one

23:03

of Amman's close associates.

23:06

This baby was not, um, physically capable to, to,

23:11

um, take on nourishment. I, the mother, I don't, I mean,

23:15

the mother I think, was feeding the baby. The baby had an issue with being able to absorb nutrition.

23:21

And so the hospital wanted to make sure that this baby was okay.

23:24

Uh, the family was unwilling to bring the baby back

23:27

for a check in a checkup. And, and all of a sudden thought, and,

23:32

and I shouldn't say that, I, I don't know what he thought,

23:34

but Amon made this a campaign that the,

23:38

that the hospital was trafficking. Uh, and, um, he started to docks, uh, hospital staff.

23:45

They had a big protest, um, Amons, uh, group,

23:50

the People's Right Network, which was something

23:52

that he created during Pandemic. It, it essentially was, I mean,

23:56

he called it a neighborhood watch group. It was enormously disruptive and,

24:00

and communities including my own. And, um, and so they protest in front of St.

24:06

Luke's Hospital. Um, they had to divert ambulances

24:10

for people who really were sick. And, uh, and so St.

24:14

Luke's decided to fight back against Amon

24:17

and ended up winning $52 million in a defamation suit.

24:20

So, and now he's just gone. W you know, you hear rumors here

24:24

- And there. We, no one's seen him, in se several, several weeks

24:27

or months now at this point. Right. He tried to sell the house

24:29

and didn't get away with that. And, uh, do we know where he is right now?

24:33

- Uh, I keep hearing rumors. I don't know for sure.

24:35

I had, I was just at the Tucson Book Festival,

24:38

and I had a woman say, I think I know where Amon is,

24:41

and kind of <laugh> tell, tell me a little bit of a secret. And

24:44

- Anyway, - It was, it's, - I don't, yeah, we'll see.

24:48

I, I don't know that we need to turn, you know? Yeah.

24:50

Where, where's, where's Amon into a a Where's Waldo book?

24:53

It just helps, helps with the, the myth <laugh>.

24:55

Uh, let, so let's get back to some of these myths

24:59

that you really get into, into the, in your second book,

25:02

you mentioned Constitutional Sheriffs Now making it all the

25:05

way into Season five of Fargo.

25:08

And that was the myth, of course, that got

25:11

Levo Finicum killed this during the second Bundy standoff in Maller, uh,

25:17

they left the Mallard Wildlife Refuge,

25:19

and were trying to go get Safe haven from what they believed

25:22

to be a constitutional sheriff in a neighboring county.

25:27

And when they got pulled over, uh, Amon said, we're going

25:31

to see the Sheriff as if that's somehow a, you know,

25:34

a get out of jail free card, the FBI will be like, oh, sure.

25:37

Get on your way, sir. Uh, right.

25:40

E explain this Constitutional Sheriff nonsense and,

25:43

and how it ties into public lands extremism.

25:46

- Yeah. I write about this in American science,

25:49

so I might be a teeny bit rusty on this,

25:51

but <laugh>, uh, so Richard Mack is,

25:56

he heads the Constitutional Sheriff's

25:59

and Peacekeeping Association,

26:02

and he is in very, very, uh, he's been in, in, um,

26:07

cahoots with Stewart Rhodes. I, I saw them present together at something called

26:14

The Red Pill Expo, which is a gathering

26:18

- Of, oh boy, send, send me my tickets. - Yeah, it was a, it was quite a show.

26:23

And so this was a gathering

26:25

of every conspiracy theorist that you can imagine.

26:28

This happened, I saw it in October of 2020,

26:32

and they were already talking about the election being stolen.

26:35

So they were already positioning themselves, and I'm, I'm talking about Richard Mack,

26:40

this constitutional sheriff, uh, Stewart Rhodes, who, again,

26:44

the head of the Oath Keepers, there were some adamant,

26:47

adamant anti-vaxxers. There were, uh, Q Anon folks, uh, one guy in particular

26:53

who talks about the lizard, people who walk among us.

26:56

And then at lunch, the film was, the Titanic never sank.

27:02

So this was <laugh>. - Oh, wow. So we're, we're from the crazy

27:06

to the Totally nuts - Here. Yeah. So, so there was, it

27:08

- Was quite - A group, and I tell you at the time, it,

27:10

it is easy to laugh, but I, that's when I realized this was a really

27:15

broad coalition. These were, this was unprecedented in terms

27:18

of bringing these groups together.

27:21

So you had yoga moms who didn't wanna vaccinate their kids,

27:25

hanging out with lizard people, believers

27:29

and constitutional sheriffs. And the Constitutional Sheriff is, um, the idea is

27:35

that they are the, uh, they have the most authority

27:40

of, of any law enforcement in the land, in court, um,

27:43

including the government because they're elected.

27:46

It's absolutely bogus. But it is a belief that, again, you know, the belief

27:52

that the federal government can't own public land.

27:56

It's the same thing with the constitutional sheriffs,

27:58

that they believe that they're the highest law

28:00

of the land. And it, - Even though the world sheriff doesn't ever appear

28:04

in the Constitution, it, - It's, it's go and it goes back to, um,

28:08

religious extremism again. I mean, it, it's, these are, these are, um, folks

28:11

that came out of, of real, real, uh, religious,

28:17

like, I mean, people sort of positioning themselves for

28:21

anti-government, um, activism and civil war, um, mentality.

28:27

- Um, Betsy, I am curious, as you're talking about this,

28:30

how do you, how do you feel when you go to these meetups,

28:34

um, and how, and when you talk to these people, like where do you,

28:38

how do you approach them? How do you find the common ground necessary

28:42

to have a conversation with them? - I will be honest with you, I am very, um,

28:50

willing to talk to folks. I, I worry about people being vulnerable to these ideas.

28:57

So I'm willing to talk to folks

29:01

before they're fully indoctrinated. But I really believe that there are bad guys out there.

29:05

And, and, and so I, when I talk to Clive

29:09

and I, I stuck

29:12

with talking about L-D-S-I-I,

29:15

we really focused on his religious beliefs.

29:18

And when they began to talk a little bit about the Battle

29:21

of Bunkerville, and I, I'm telling you, it was a thrilling event to a number of people.

29:26

Uh, there was a lot of adrenaline, a lot

29:28

of feeling of victory. Um, and so you can understand where

29:34

that could be somewhat contagious. I've, I've thought a lot about that, you know, why this,

29:40

what it did in terms of motivating individuals

29:43

and, and this culture. But, um, but I, I have talked to folks that I talk,

29:50

I've talked to folks who've left the movement. Um, I've talked to folks who've been vulnerable to it.

29:55

And, and, um, you know, again, my idea being very much,

29:59

how do we keep our communities healthy so that social media

30:04

and cynical politicians and,

30:06

and people making power plays don't own the day, don't,

30:10

aren't able to, to indoctrinate, um, and,

30:14

and spread extremism. So I think it's really important to,

30:18

to have these conversations. However, there are people who were really dangerous.

30:23

And I, I did have one incident that,

30:27

that I'm not particularly proud of.

30:30

Um, but I went to, this was not the Red Pill Expo,

30:34

which was a national event. This was the Red Pill Festival, which was a regional event.

30:40

<laugh> God, no. So, so I went to a little town called St.

30:44

Regis, which in the last or the week or two

30:46

before they had this Red Pill festival,

30:51

um, the, the saw mill, uh,

30:55

or this, the, the, there was a timber, um, industry,

30:58

timber business that had, that had laid off 97 people in a town of, I, I have

31:04

to believe it's less than 500 people. So that kind of thing does leave folks vulnerable

31:10

to, to extremism. I mean, that anger, that, that belief

31:14

that somehow environmentalists are behind all this, and,

31:18

and these, these folks pick these small towns

31:22

that are vulnerable to extremism.

31:25

So I was at this event, the, the mc, Derek Skis,

31:29

who is a former state legislature, was

31:33

unbelievably awful to, I mean,

31:35

just really vindictive, really ugly.

31:38

He was being, there was a Washington Post person there,

31:41

there, vice News was there, there were other, uh,

31:44

journalists there from Montana. Uh, I was there. I don't, I'm a historian and a researcher.

31:50

I don't consider myself a journalist, but I, I do journalism in, in some of this work that I do.

31:56

So he was being horrible, and I, the every person

32:01

who got up there was just spreading lies.

32:04

And it, I, it's the only time that I got really mad.

32:08

And one of the guys who got up there was Joey Gibson,

32:11

who's from Patriot Prayer, and he'd been the one who'd been just horrible

32:16

to the Black Lives Matter protesters.

32:18

And he'd showed up with folks and their ars

32:21

and he just, he was so nasty.

32:23

And he got up there and he is saying, you know,

32:26

what the right thing is to do? I mean, or rather, God is telling you what to do.

32:30

God is in your heart. We know we have to fight against the liberals, and we know we have to.

32:36

I mean, essentially, it's a, it's a religious mandate.

32:38

And I went up to him afterwards, <laugh>, and I just, I went up to his booth

32:42

and I said, what about God telling other people

32:46

to do completely different things?

32:48

Like what if God is saying, you know, get in there and,

32:51

and protest for Black Lives Matter. Make sure that we're taking care

32:55

of people in our community, spread the love.

32:58

Like what if God is saying, leave your ars at home?

33:01

You know? And, and, and he was so, um, sort of,

33:06

I mean, I think he just said, oh, well, um,

33:09

God can talk to you too. I mean, it was just like one, I think he was so, um, but,

33:15

but he is like, no, that's, I think it's, God talks to everybody.

33:18

And I said, but you're telling us that God talks

33:21

to one set of folks. And I, anyway, I got into a little bit of a discussion

33:26

with him because I was so sick of it.

33:29

Um, that probably wasn't my finest moment,

33:31

but I was, I was, I, I didn't, I, I wasn't, I was ready

33:36

to just, uh, knock my head against a wall.

33:40

- So I wanna talk about geography then. 'cause this is St.

33:43

Regis, Montana that you're talking about, which is along I 90, right?

33:46

Real close to the Idaho border.

33:49

And we are seeing a, a growing stronghold of extremism

33:54

in Idaho, especially the further north you get.

33:58

So what is going on up there that you have these extremists

34:02

choosing to settle in, in Idaho,

34:05

and what does that mean, both for public lands

34:08

and I suppose democracy writ large

34:12

when you have this kind of movement

34:15

of people into a specific area? - Yeah, and I, I mean, let's think a little bit

34:20

about public lands. I if, if on January 6th, you know, hundreds and hundreds

34:25

and hundreds and hundreds of people can take over the

34:28

capital, imagine how easy it is

34:31

to do another action on public lands. I, I, I mean, public lands are vulnerable,

34:35

and it's a, for better

34:38

or for worse, great stage for these folks to, to be able

34:42

to go in, uh, federal employees leave

34:45

and they can, you know, they, they, it was so easy

34:49

to take over the Malhere Wildlife Refuge

34:51

and, uh, the Battle of Bunkerville over Gold

34:53

Butte National Monument. Again, they, this was, this was something

34:57

that was very easy to, to stage.

35:00

And it, and it's effective. They, they get their platform.

35:03

So I think public lands are extremely vulnerable.

35:06

And when you look at places in the West

35:08

that are becoming ever more extreme, of course,

35:10

they're right next to public land. I mean, you know, the Idaho Panhandle is right next to the,

35:15

um, river of no return wilderness, Frank Church River

35:18

of No Return Wilderness. Um, so, and I, I, again, I I don't know

35:23

of any specific action right now. Um, and one

35:26

of the reasons why these folks really like these places is

35:29

because of wilderness attributes. I mean, there, there are places where people can kind

35:34

of get escape or get lost, or have places where they can retreat.

35:38

And North Idaho is particularly

35:43

interesting because in part, it's part of this campaign

35:46

by John Wellesley Rawls, the American readout,

35:50

which is Go west, create like-minded communities,

35:55

and let's get ready for either a civil war

35:58

or the second coming. So the, these are religiously motivated folks.

36:02

Many of them are, um, white Christian nationalists

36:05

going into communities that, that have had, uh,

36:11

economic, um, declines. I mean, you know, some of these places are old sawmill

36:15

towns, and they can go in and they feel like they can re recreate communities based on

36:21

their own ideologies. And so that North Idaho is one of those places.

36:26

And we know that North Idaho has been vulnerable to that for a while.

36:29

I mean, Richard Butler was there. Uh, Ruby Ridge took place there.

36:35

So these, this is not the, the Unabomber, well,

36:38

the Unabomber was in, um, Montana. Montana, Montana, Montana, that's right. Yeah.

36:42

But, but, but it does definitely, uh,

36:45

spread into Western Montana.

36:48

So, so Raws talks about Colorado, um, east, um,

36:53

Oregon, Eastern Washington, uh, the I, uh, Idaho.

36:59

Um, and so he's talking about this as a place to,

37:02

to build homeland. And again, as I get into mythologies, this is the mytho

37:07

or the myth of homeland, the mi myth of a blank slate,

37:11

the myth of a frontier, the myth of a front line.

37:15

And, and this is in part what motivates some of these folks.

37:19

That said, I was really happy to see

37:23

that there are people fighting to, to, um,

37:27

push these folks out fighting extremism in Idaho.

37:32

Uh, the take back Idaho is really a movement launched

37:35

by conservative Republicans

37:37

to thwart extremism in their party.

37:41

- Betsy, can you say more about that? Who is working to sort of push back on this?

37:44

Is there any, and what tools do you see working,

37:48

um, out of those? - Yeah, I, I have a story. I, I, who do I see?

37:53

I see Greg g Graff, I see Krista Hazel, uh,

37:57

I see Alicia Abbott, who's

37:59

with Idaho 97 Percenters, which is, uh,

38:04

- Opposite, the opposite of the 3%, because I love that.

38:06

- Um, and Mike SATs, who started, uh, Idaho, um, 97%

38:11

or so, the, these are groups that are both, um, you know,

38:15

the, the 97 percenters are more on

38:17

the liberal side of things. The take back Idaho folks are, um, Republican,

38:22

but they're working together to, to get these folks

38:27

who have come in apart from unite the Right.

38:29

They're, they're, because Idaho has, um, be,

38:33

and I should say that, uh, I, I should, I should reiterate

38:36

that, or or rather I should rephrase that, sorry.

38:39

<laugh>. Um, because people

38:43

who have moved into Idaho are trying to

38:47

promote it as a white Christian nationalist homeland,

38:51

folks who've lived in Idaho who, you know, predate this

38:55

and maybe have lived there for many generations, uh,

38:59

are are trying to thwart the,

39:02

unite the right people there. There's, um, some neo-Nazis from California coming in there,

39:08

there are, right, right, right.

39:11

Um, wing Republicans from Orange County, that, that

39:15

may not feel uncomfortable throwing their lot in with,

39:20

with white supremacists. And, um, and they, they've moved to the state.

39:25

So those that have been there for a while, who,

39:27

who feel like this is absolutely awful, uh,

39:31

are working really hard to protect their communities.

39:35

I have one story just Kate, based on, um,

39:38

an example which shows both a tenacity,

39:41

but also how, um, how this is really going to be a marathon

39:45

and not, not a sprint. Um, in Bonners County,

39:49

or excuse me, in Bonners Ferry in Bonners County,

39:51

there were extremists who tried to take over the school board there,

39:55

and they won two of them.

39:58

And I think there are five people on the, the school board,

40:00

there might be four, but I think there are five. Uh, two of them were extremists,

40:05

and they won by something like five or seven votes.

40:09

And so the folks at Bonners Ferry, a conservative,

40:14

one of the most conservative places in Idaho, in already one

40:18

of the most conservative states, uh, demanded a recount.

40:22

And they kicked these guys out of there.

40:24

And the, the, the extremists who had been on the school board wanted

40:28

to defund the school. They'd appointed a superintendent

40:31

that had no interest in public education.

40:34

And so they had this recount, and everybody was feeling great.

40:38

And then the next election came and the extremists got on the school board.

40:41

So there are, there have been some successes,

40:45

and I think the same vote saw a lot of, um,

40:49

pushback against, this is the Idaho Freedom Foundation,

40:53

which is, which is an ex, they have an extremist agenda.

40:57

And, um, I think there was some success on the part

40:59

of Takeback Idaho, but it's going to be a fight that they, they have

41:04

to keep fighting, and there has to be a vigilance,

41:07

because this is a really tenacious movement.

41:11

- Betsy, how do the rich folks who are moving into the west,

41:15

into these sort of resort towns that we think of,

41:17

like Big Sky, Jackson, sun Valley, how

41:21

do they play into any of this, if at all?

41:23

Do they, is is there, do they, does that sort

41:28

of, I don't know, gentrification if you will, sort of, um,

41:31

set off these radical folks? Or are they in completely different worlds at this point?

41:38

- I think it's an interesting question. It it's, and it's, and it's complicated. I would say.

41:44

I'm not sure that rich people moving to places like, um,

41:47

the Yellowstone, um, or what is the name of that place?

41:49

The Yellowstone Club <laugh>, who are the one percenters coming in

41:54

and, you know, punching into wilderness impacting habitats,

41:59

uh, polluting rivers. It's a nightmare. And it really does impact

42:06

the cost of living. I mean, for people who cater to them,

42:10

there's no places to live. Um, they're working th two to three jobs, and

42:16

and these folks come in, they're there for, you know,

42:19

two weeks maybe in the summer, two weeks in the winter.

42:23

They, they don't directly impact this.

42:27

And yet these ha the Yellowstone Club in, in, um,

42:32

particular has become a place for fundraising.

42:36

And so you're seeing candidates that are coming in, uh,

42:40

that are become, you know, these candidates

42:42

that are moving ever more to the right.

42:45

So, um, who did we just have, I guess,

42:48

who was here this winter? Um, uh, not God,

42:53

that awful guy from Texas, you know who I'm talking about?

42:55

There's so many of them. Senator Ted, Ted Cruz. Ted Cruz.

42:59

So Ted Cruz. Yeah. So Ted Cruz is coming in

43:02

to fundraise at the Yellowstone Club. So, yeah, you know, I mean, if you look at it that way,

43:08

extremist candidates are benefiting from the one percenters

43:11

that are moving into these places. So that there's that.

43:15

But also I think, uh, because it is so hard for, as these folks move in

43:20

and prices increase, it's really hard for people to,

43:24

to afford places. And I'm not sure that that's necessarily creating extremism,

43:29

but there is a perception now about places like Bozeman

43:34

that we're so, we're so much in a bubble,

43:37

and we're so out of touch with the rest of Montana

43:40

that when I, as a person from Bozeman,

43:43

and I've lived in Montana for 31 years,

43:46

and I go out to a rural community, I don't wanna have a Mon Montana or a, a Bozeman

43:51

or Gallatin County license plate, because I do know that my car there, there's a lot

43:57

of resentment against our community.

44:00

And so I, I, I've had, um, friends who've gone

44:04

to fishing accesses that, that have their tire slashed

44:08

and that, and it's not, you know, I get it.

44:11

I understand why people think Bozeman's full of shit.

44:14

I mean, there's so much there. We are a, a, a liberal little bubble in Montana,

44:21

but I do think it's really imperative that we make even more

44:26

of an effort to understand the rest of Montana,

44:29

because there are a lot, lot of people who live in my community

44:32

who have no idea about Eastern Montana and rural culture.

44:38

And I think that's bad. I do think that, um, we cannot, if we're going to be a part

44:44

of Montana, and we're gonna understand politics,

44:46

because we've gone from a purple state since I first moved

44:50

here to an ever reddening state.

44:53

And if there are folks that live in communities like mine

44:56

that aren't making an effort to understand the rest

44:59

of Montana, those communities are ever more

45:03

vulnerable to extremism. And it's in part because they resent our community

45:09

and our culture, even though we're not all living in

45:12

the Yellowstone Club. But it's, but so Kate, that, that's a,

45:16

that's a complicated way of answering your question,

45:18

but I would say it does play a role, and it's, and,

45:22

and more than anything, I think it's really important

45:25

for people in communities like Missoula

45:28

and Bozeman to understand that Montana is,

45:31

is a lot bigger than Missoula and Bozeman. I,

45:35

- I think it's fascinating, first of all, just to know that when it gets cold in Texas,

45:38

Ted Cruz doesn't just go to Cancun. <laugh>, I, I wanna ask about what happened

45:45

to all of these groups post January 6th.

45:49

Obviously, you have Stuart Rhodes in prison

45:51

for a very long time. You have Amon Bundy underground

45:56

and owing, uh, tens of millions of dollars

45:59

to a hospital system. So what's happening now in those circles?

46:06

Uh, are they regrouping? Are they humbled

46:10

and, uh, acknowledge the error of their ways now that

46:12

so many of them are in prison? What, what's the, the state of play,

46:16

particularly heading into, uh, another election year

46:21

where Donald Trump, uh, surely is going

46:23

to once again claim any election is stolen

46:26

if he does not win? - Okay, so I'm gonna preface this as, um, the, I I,

46:34

I am working now on a completely different

46:36

thing for my new book. So I haven't been following them as vigilantly as I do, um,

46:43

or I have in the past. However, I have a couple of, um, sort of observations.

46:48

Number one, the oath keepers seems to have disintegrated.

46:53

I don't, I, I, and, and that said, there might be people

46:55

who are going to rise from the ashes because that happens.

46:59

Um, but, but the Oath Keepers doesn't seem

47:01

to be very viable right now. The Proud Boys, I think is still, it, it still has,

47:06

um, um, some structure. Um, I think that's still a threat.

47:11

My feeling now, I'm less worried about militias than I am about how

47:17

mainstream their missions have become.

47:20

So I'm seeing evangelicals taking up these,

47:25

these kind of issues as a way to,

47:29

to fight the good fight for God.

47:32

I see the, um, these arm, I, I actually see this as,

47:37

I think that we are going to see if Donald Trump loses the same amount of,

47:43

of uprising. And it's not going to be from militias,

47:46

it's gonna be from folks who are radicalized evangelicals who've decided

47:51

that this is their chance to fight for God's guy, uh, Trump.

47:56

And, um, and so I'm, I'm worried about feeling that.

48:00

Um, but I, I don't think the militias being intact is, uh,

48:05

necessary at this point, uh, because I think that it's become so mainstream, in part

48:10

because Trump did do hi during his debate, you know,

48:14

stand back and stand by to, to the, to the, uh, proud boys.

48:19

And he does actively, you know,

48:22

and I, it's not even a dog whistle at this point. No,

48:26

- It's explicit. Sure. - Explicit. I mean, he will, he will do a call to arms,

48:31

and there are any number of, of folks that have guns

48:35

and will look for an occasion to, to fight for him.

48:39

So, um, so again, not having followed it as closely

48:43

as I have, that's my hunch. - That's so interesting you bring that up, Betsy.

48:48

'cause I was gonna ask you about that sort of, um,

48:53

sense that these groups have faded a little bit in the past

48:55

couple of years, and how that that's not

48:58

what we normally see under a Democratic president.

49:00

We usually see more, um, more discontent

49:05

and organizing on the right. Um, but,

49:08

but I think that you're spot on in saying that it's probably just

49:11

'cause the, the, the mainstream politicians on the right have fully embraced

49:16

their, a lot of these causes now, and it's just sort of, they're not feeling

49:21

voiceless, I guess. - Yeah, yeah. I I, I, I hate to say that,

49:26

but I'm not sure these groups are really necessary at that,

49:30

at this point, to, in order to, to continue

49:34

to promote these, these very dangerous, uh, ideas and,

49:39

and this kind of militancy and these, these deep right wing ideas.

49:47

- So I have a question to sort of selfishly bring it back

49:51

around to public lands, but this is a legitimate question that I, that I wanna ask, which is that, you know, we see,

49:57

like I live in Utah and our state legislature just wrapped

50:00

and they pushed a ton of dismal legislation about trans bathroom things.

50:05

And every single, like, you know, banning abortion again

50:09

and all of the things that are kind of top of the

50:13

priority list for these culture war, um, legislators.

50:17

And, but what we didn't see much action on the public lands

50:20

front, it, it feels like public lands are not at least a,

50:26

a, a, a policy bottle, uh, battleground, um,

50:30

or at least are not maybe at the top of the agenda

50:33

for these sort of evangelical right wingers.

50:36

What do you think about that? Do you, are we missing something?

50:39

Do you think that there, that there's a chance

50:41

that they might rope our public lands back in, in a big way?

50:44

Or, or, um, are they focused on more religious, you know, issues?

50:50

- Oh my gosh. Okay. So my thought is, and because I'm not in Utah,

50:55

but I certainly know what you're talking about, my thought is, is that they're working right now

51:00

on hot button issues. They, they're speaking to their constituency.

51:03

So right now, trans bathrooms are more important than public lands.

51:08

And, uh, and yet I don't think it's the end of it.

51:11

I mean, once public lands become important again,

51:14

we'll be right back to at public lands

51:17

and attacking public, um, you know, as essentially,

51:20

you know, pushing, uh, extraction on public lands or,

51:23

or, you know, eroding, uh, regulations that, that, um, are,

51:28

are, are part of public lands management.

51:30

But it, it's really interesting to see how

51:37

they jockey, uh, uh, to, to, to, um, you know,

51:41

galvanize or, or, or engage their, their constituencies

51:45

and trans issues right now are, are such, I mean,

51:49

that was one of the biggest things in our state legislature.

51:52

When did that happen? I, I, it, I mean, it, it just, it, it, it's, you know,

51:57

it's basically what can we do to raise money

52:01

to make people become outraged, to scare them?

52:05

Uh, and right now it's trans, um,

52:08

athletes in women's sports.

52:11

I mean, it just, but, but it's, it's, and that's the issue of, of the day.

52:15

Um, so no, we, we have not seen the end

52:18

of attacks on public lands. It just isn't in vogue right now for, um,

52:25

right wing culture. - I, I wanna wrap on a, maybe a, a less

52:33

bleak note. 'cause you, you do end your book on a somewhat hopeful note.

52:39

Do you, do you have some real hope that the, the extremism

52:43

that we are seeing here in the west can dissipate

52:46

or that there can be some reconciliation?

52:49

And what, what would that path look like? - Oh my gosh. Okay. So we got our work cut out for us.

52:56

It's not gonna be easy. And, um, and,

53:00

and yet I ended this book feeling far more

53:05

hopeful, uh, than I did when I began it

53:07

because I, you know, I started out when we were all just kind

53:11

of siloed in our houses, sheltering in place.

53:14

We were getting versions of each other over social media.

53:17

Everybody was super mean. And, and so I, I felt pretty bleak. And I also felt mad.

53:24

I mean, mean, I, I I started out feeling just as angry

53:28

as everybody else, you know, oh, this misinformation,

53:31

this disinformation, what a bunch of idiots.

53:34

And when I started to go out in these communities

53:37

and talk to people, and again, I I said it earlier,

53:40

not everybody, you don't wanna talk to these extreme Christian nationalists that, and

53:46

because they are so intent on taking over places, and they,

53:50

and they have othered people. And that's what scares me is this othering.

53:55

And if we play into othering and,

53:57

and by we, I, I'm, I'm talking about me as somebody who is

54:02

a liberal with a PhD and, and, um,

54:05

and you know, the, I mean, I, I'm sure I'm viewed as, um,

54:10

an elitist, uh, you know, sort of, I, I,

54:13

maybe I'm condescending, maybe you know, these things

54:15

that I tried very hard to, to not be, um,

54:20

when I, when I went into these communities to talk to people.

54:23

And so, uh, you know, both, and,

54:25

and I, I'm not gonna both sides us because there is a real threat from right wing

54:30

extremism left. There is some left wing extremism,

54:34

but it is like, it's absolutely eclipsed by the right wing.

54:38

However, I do think that folks like me need

54:43

to be a little less on their high horse, um, uh, and,

54:47

and to be willing to, um, talk to folks that,

54:51

that may be coming from different points of view.

54:54

And, and I'll be honest with you, I actually had a really good time.

54:58

I, I, I talked to a lot of people

55:00

who did have very different ideas than I did.

55:03

I, I mean, one of the conversations I had, which I thought was really interesting, was some, uh,

55:09

one rancher and a guy who owned a hotel, um,

55:12

who were talking about LaVoy Finicum, you know,

55:15

resisting arrest. And I said, not only did he not I, I mean I, sorry,

55:21

they didn't think he resisted arrest, let me start that again.

55:25

I talked to <laugh>, I talked to a rancher in Eastern Montana

55:28

and a guy who owns the longest continuing operating hotel

55:32

there, and they had talked about George Floyd resisting arrest.

55:36

And I said, not only did he not resist arrest, you know,

55:40

your guy LaVoy did. And, and they, they had,

55:43

and it's not like they were big supporters of LaVoy Finicum,

55:46

but they had kind of, they'd heard about, um, the mal here events.

55:50

They'd heard that LaVoy had been shot.

55:52

There'd been some state troopers from Oregon

55:55

who had stayed at the hotel who had said, you know, we

55:58

LaVoy didn't have to die. And I was like, guys,

56:01

he was pulling a gun from his pocket screaming, shoot me,

56:04

shoot me, shoot me. And, and, but just to be at this table drinking coffee

56:10

with these guys, it was really good.

56:14

I mean, we had, it was really good to be able

56:16

to talk about climate change with them, to be able

56:19

to talk about police with them, to be able

56:21

to talk about Black Lives matter with them and,

56:23

and to do it in a way that was face-to-face,

56:26

where we could all say how we were feeling.

56:29

And I think, I mean, we didn't change our mind that day.

56:32

It's not like we all walked away and said, boy, you know, I

56:34

really have a different point of view. But what we had is the beginning of a relationship.

56:40

And one of the guys I've continued to keep in touch with,

56:45

and I've now visited him three times,

56:47

and he was the one who told me, if I hadn't met you,

56:50

I would've been afraid of you. And that is exactly the agenda that some of these

56:56

folks are trying to create. I mean, Trump wants us to be afraid of people

57:00

that don't agree with him, um,

57:03

and to hate people that don't agree with him.

57:05

And we gotta get around that. Or we are gonna be in a position where, where, I mean,

57:11

othering happens fast and it leads to violence fast, and,

57:15

and it's something that there's, I mean,

57:18

I'm not even gonna say there's real potential. We've seen it at the Pulse nightclub,

57:22

we've seen it at the Walmart in El Paso,

57:25

we've seen it at the grocery store in Buffalo. This is something that could happen more. And, and it does.

57:31

I'm not, I don't even know why I could say I say could.

57:34

It is happening more and more often,

57:37

and that's why we cannot let this campaign of othering

57:41

stop us from being in relationship with each other,

57:44

because it's incredibly intentional

57:46

and it's so easy to fall into. It's so easy to be mad and to be unwilling to talk to folks

57:52

because there are so much gross stuff happening right now,

57:55

just like you're talking about, you know, why are we focusing on transgender bathrooms?

58:00

I mean, these are wonderful people who are trying to,

58:04

to just survive in our world, and we're, we're focusing on transgender people.

58:09

What is going on here? And, and why are these campaigns finding such success?

58:14

In part, it's because we're letting them have the narrative

58:19

and we need to take it back. - Hmm. Well, I know that we could talk about this for hours

58:25

because it's a very, um,

58:30

complicated issue, but also it seems obvious.

58:33

It's just how do you get people who don't see eye

58:36

to eye politically to actually get together and have coffee if you're not writing a book about them?

58:41

Um, <laugh> So I, I have a similar experience in working in rural Utah.

58:45

I got to sit down and talk to a lot of people I didn't agree with

58:47

and got to even, um, to the point where I called some of them my friends.

58:51

But, um, normal people don't often have those opportunities

58:54

in their day-to-Day lives. So, um, I hope that that's

58:58

what your next book is about, <laugh> - Well, I I'm hoping that we can scale it.

59:02

I'm talking to Tory House Press about figuring out, I mean,

59:05

as we see our institutions, um, sort of collapse

59:08

as we still see small town newspapers collapse,

59:12

we're we're having fewer and fewer opportunities.

59:15

Yeah. So I, I'm really hoping that we can scale some of these conversations.

59:19

I, I do know that there are groups that, that do work on this.

59:22

There's, um, I I

59:25

and I, I, I am not articulate enough, um, at this point

59:29

to talk about specific groups, but I, I do know that there are, um,

59:34

efforts along these lines, and that's something that I'm really, really, um,

59:38

interested in, in working on with universities,

59:41

with different nonprofit organizations, um,

59:44

with Community Town Hall get togethers.

59:47

And, um, because we, we got out of practice and,

59:50

and, you know, our, our kids weren't playing sports together.

59:52

We weren't going to PTA meetings together. We weren't doing things that we,

59:57

we normally did having book clubs together, um, that,

1:00:00

that we would perhaps be with people with different points of view.

1:00:03

And I, I think that a lot of us have decided

1:00:06

to dig in our heels and, and not continue with those kind of,

1:00:10

um, you know, opportunities. And we have to figure out ways to do it.

1:00:14

We have to organize and consider it

1:00:16

and look at community resiliency. I do think it's possible community

1:00:20

by community if there are people willing to really consider

1:00:25

how they can make that work. And I actually think libraries are a great place to, um,

1:00:29

think about these things and universities are a great place

1:00:31

to think about these things, and bookstores are a great

1:00:33

thing, way to or place to think about these things.

1:00:37

- Awesome. Well, we'll leave it there. Betsy Gaines Kwaman, author of American Zion

1:00:41

and True West, thank you so much for joining us today.

1:00:45

- I really, really appreciate the opportunity. It's been fun to be in conversation with you guys.

1:00:54

- Here's a little good news to close us out. California's Yurok tribe will be the first native people

1:00:59

to manage tribal land with the National Park Service.

1:01:02

Under a historic memorandum of understanding,

1:01:05

starting in 2026, the tribe will have ownership of 125 acres

1:01:09

that will serve as a new gateway to Redwood National and state parks.

1:01:13

The land is called Ooo, in the Yurok language,

1:01:15

and was stolen from the Yurok tribe during the gold rush

1:01:18

of the mid 18 hundreds, along with 90%

1:01:21

of the tribe's territory. The tribe plans to construct a traditional Yurok village

1:01:25

of Redwood plank houses and a sweat house, a new visitor center displaying Yurok

1:01:29

artifacts and over a mile of new trails that will connect

1:01:33

to existing trail systems in the adjacent parks.

1:01:36

- I am really excited to see all of that when it gets built.

1:01:38

It's long past due that tribes, uh, have co-management

1:01:43

and co stewardship, uh, on our national public lands.

1:01:45

It's, it's really great to see. All right, well that is it for today, folks.

1:01:59

Uh, as always, feel free to reach out with your Thoughts

1:02:02

and Comments [email protected].

1:02:05

Uh, and as Kate mentioned earlier, go check out that pod.

1:02:10

And as Kate mentioned earlier, uh, go check out that Road

1:02:12

to 30 postcard video, uh, from Chuck Wall.

1:02:15

It really is a really spectacular piece of work. The team

1:02:18

- Did a great job with it. - Thanks again to Betsy for joining us today, and thank you.

1:02:23

For listening to the landscape.