0:00

- <silence> - Hey, there it is, the landscape,

0:08

your show about America's parks and public lands.

0:10

I'm Erin Weiss with the Center for Western Priorities,

0:13

waiting for our inevitable march snowstorm

0:16

to roll in here in Denver. - And I'm Kate Retinger in Salt Lake City,

0:20

where I think it's gonna be sunny for the rest of the week.

0:23

Nice. This week on the pod, we're talking to three members

0:26

of the reporting team behind an incredible investigation into

0:29

how lithium mining could affect the West's water supply.

0:32

But before we get to that, let's do the news. Last week, the Bureau of Land Management

0:37

and Forest Service dropped the long awaited draft management

0:40

plan for the Bears Ears National Monument. Now, every new monument gets a management plan, so

0:45

that's not in and of itself very newsworthy.

0:48

But the thing that makes this so exciting is

0:50

that it's the first management plan developed in

0:52

collaboration with tribal nations. The BLM and Forest Service published a handful

0:57

of potential plans for the monument per regular practice,

1:00

and identified the plan that includes the most tribal input

1:03

as their preferred plan. That's great news since the agency's preferred plan is

1:07

usually the one that ends up going into effect. The preferred plan released last week includes a number

1:12

of tweaks to allow activities inside the monument's boundaries,

1:15

like a complete ban on recreational shooting

1:18

and some grazing closures and limits on off-roading.

1:21

In order to protect archeological resources, around 90%

1:24

of the monument will remain open to grazing,

1:27

and around two thirds would remain open to off-road vehicles.

1:29

Under the draft plan, it also places an emphasis on indigenous knowledge

1:34

and practices for vegetation management, such

1:36

as cultural burning and wood gathering. A 90 day comment period kicked off on Friday, March 8th.

1:42

We'll drop a link to the comment form along with resources

1:44

to learn more about that plan in the show notes, and we'll try to line up an interview

1:48

with some folks involved in drafting the plan in the coming month.

1:52

- In other news, lithium prices are falling along

1:54

with all other EV metals. Now that's mainly due to a slowdown in demand

1:59

for electric vehicles in China and in the us.

2:02

That's of course, caused in part by high interest rates,

2:05

also the somewhat slow rollout of a charging network across the country.

2:09

In the meantime, China has been pumping out lithium

2:12

and lithium containing batteries. So the supply side of the equation is dragging down prices.

2:18

In other words, this is a classic mining boom

2:21

and bust cycle globally only.

2:24

The boom was more of just a loud popping noise as far

2:26

as mining in the US goes. Now ultimately, lithium demand will eventually go up,

2:33

but it's hard to say when I, I'm seeing some companies

2:36

and economic studies, uh, suggesting

2:39

that supply is gonna outpace demand until 2030 or beyond.

2:44

And that's something to keep in mind as you listen

2:46

to this interview about lithium and water.

2:49

And the companies that are insisting their minds won't

2:52

damage Western aquifers. We have seen this story play out

2:57

for 150 years across the west.

3:00

The minute a mining boom goes bust, mining companies pack up

3:04

and go, and everyone else is left to clean up the damage.

3:11

- We're excited to have two reporters and an editor from the Howard Center

3:14

for Investigative Journalism at Arizona State University's.

3:18

Walter Cronkite School of Journalism here today.

3:20

They're part of a large team of editors, photographers,

3:23

and reporters who worked on a groundbreaking investigation

3:26

into the groundwater threats posed by lithium mining in the West.

3:30

Their reporting found that lithium mining could suck up billions of gallons

3:33

of water in some of the driest states in the US

3:37

and that the federal government has no way to stop this.

3:40

First up, we've got Emma Peterson, a graduate

3:42

of the Cronkite School, who led the team's reporting on the

3:45

Thacker Pass Mine and Tailings. Emma, thanks for being here. Thank

3:49

- You for having me. <laugh>. - Next up, we've got Morgan Casey, also a graduate

3:53

of the Cronkite School, who's reporting spread across multiple states

3:56

principally in the West. - Hey, thanks for having me.

4:00

- And finally, we've got Lauren Olo,

4:03

a professor at the Cronkite School who helped edit the story.

4:06

Lauren, thanks for being here. - Hi, thank you so much for having us.

4:10

- All right, Lauren, let's start with you. Why did the team decide

4:13

to look into lithium mining in the west? - Yeah, sure. So we started looking into lithium mining, um,

4:20

because, you know, we had seen a lot of spot stories looking at, um, a mine project

4:26

that had been proposed in northern Nevada, which is actually a mine that, um, Emma, uh, spent a lot

4:32

of time digging into. So that project is called Thacker Pass,

4:35

and there had been a series of lawsuits against the mine,

4:39

um, against the company behind the mine, uh, lithium Nevada,

4:42

which is owned by Lithium America's Corporation.

4:45

And that had been in the news quite a bit. So we were curious about that.

4:48

We saw that there was also a lot of federal funding around,

4:51

um, mining projects like the Lithium mine

4:55

and some of the spot reporting we had seen also suggested

4:57

that the backer pass mine was being fast tracked

5:01

through the regulatory process with the federal government.

5:04

So we, so basically seeing that sort of series

5:08

of different spots stories said to us, all right,

5:10

there's something going on here that's worth digging deeper into.

5:14

And so that's what we did. We started with Thacker Thacker Pass,

5:17

but it soon became pretty evident that this wasn't the only lithium mining project underway.

5:23

Um, and so then we expanded our search and discovered that there were actually dozens of projects,

5:29

uh, that were in various stages of, um, proposal planning,

5:33

um, getting, you know, sort of, uh, uh,

5:37

environmental disclosures written. Um, there, some of them were mines

5:41

that were federal projects. Some of them were projects on state and private land.

5:45

Uh, but there were many, many coming

5:47

and it seemed like the sort of regulatory environment around

5:50

that, at least for one mine raised a lot of questions.

5:53

So just so it was fertile ground and we dove in

5:56

and fortunately we had a team of very strong,

5:59

very passionate reporters in the Howard Center this semester

6:02

that we, we decided to delve into this topic who really ran

6:06

with it and made that reporting their own. - Morgan, walk us through some of the basics here.

6:11

Number one, why are we seeing this lithium boom right now?

6:15

And then why is it so water intensive? People may hear about mining

6:18

and you think you're, you're just taking rocks outta the ground and that's that.

6:23

But there is a lot of fresh water in particular involved in lithium mining.

6:29

- Yeah, so really why we're seeing the lithium boom is,

6:33

I mean, the computer, we're recording this on right now,

6:36

the AirPods I'm using the phone I have next to me.

6:38

All of this stuff that's rechargeable requires lithium,

6:41

and that includes electric cars. So as the, as America is trying to transition away from gas

6:47

and oil and into electric, we need lithium to do that.

6:51

So it's requiring a lot more lithium, and we're hoping, um,

6:55

or at least the American government is hoping to have

6:58

that sourced here rather than where it's currently sourced mostly in South America

7:03

and then processed in China. Um, our team member, Alex Appel, really looked into,

7:10

um, why this process is so water intensive.

7:14

So mines need the water to process the lithium.

7:18

So when it's taken out of rock,

7:22

it's actually mostly taken out of this kind of mineral rich,

7:25

salty water that is technically called brine.

7:29

And, um, to process all of that,

7:33

you need fresh water to do that. Um, and we use fresh water mostly just

7:38

because we know how it reacts chemically

7:41

at a commercial level. There are mines that are looking into using like salt water

7:46

and other types of water, but really what we're using right now is fresh water.

7:51

Um, in terms of recycling it, there is a couple

7:54

of California mines that are looking into it, but nothing developed yet.

7:59

- Awesome. Um, Emma, so Morgan mentioned that we get a lot

8:03

of lithium from South America. Um, which country does the US get the most

8:08

of its lithium from and do we have any domestic lithium mining?

8:14

- Yeah, so we're gonna mention the primary place

8:18

that we're getting our, um, lithium batteries

8:21

and lithium production from is actually from China.

8:23

About 90% of our lithium battery imports currently are

8:27

coming from China, um, and a few other different Asian countries.

8:31

Um, but China is the majority of that.

8:35

Um, and yeah, we do have one, um, we have had one,

8:40

um, location in the US called Silver Peak.

8:43

Um, our team member, Jordan Gerard did most

8:45

of her work specifically on Silver Peak and looking into the environmental impacts of that.

8:50

Um, but they're producing, or they have been producing up to this point about 1%

8:54

of the world's Lithium, um, which is pretty impressive

8:58

for it being just one spot in the us. Um, but obviously now there's

9:02

more popping up all over the place. But, um, yeah, as of right now,

9:06

silver Peak is the only one

9:08

here, and most of it's from China. - Lauren, I want to dive into Silver Peak a little bit more,

9:13

and it's one of the most impressive bits of reporting here

9:17

that the team really showed up with receipts as

9:20

to this question of whether the mine at Silver Peak is

9:25

impacting the freshwater.

9:27

Uh, in the area reporter did a Zoom interview,

9:33

uh, and Alber Mall, the Marle, the owner of the mine,

9:37

followed up with a statement in bold albermarle operations

9:41

do not underline impact the freshwater aquifers

9:45

in, in the area. And yet that is immediately followed up, uh, with,

9:51

uh, the receipts. Uh, and wa walk me through that reporting process

9:55

and what Almar did in effect tell the Securities Exchange

10:00

Commission about its fresh water use? - Yeah, no, this is, thank you for, for that question.

10:05

'cause this is one of the findings I think that we're probably, uh, most proud of.

10:09

And I was actually just speaking with a, um, a classroom

10:13

of students about, you know, something quite similar.

10:15

This is what I call a hiding in plain sight discovery.

10:19

So the, the, um, information about

10:23

how much water was being taken from the ground in Nevada is

10:26

not, we weren't out there making measurements in the ground.

10:29

We weren't, you know, trying to unearth something

10:32

that nobody had had known before. There are county, um, people, there are, there are jobs,

10:39

there are there, there is a, like, um, mechanism

10:42

for actually doing these measurements on a regular basis.

10:46

Um, and so we found an annual report from one of the sort

10:50

of regional water, um, councils in Nevada, uh, that,

10:54

that basically monitors, um,

10:57

water groundwater across the state and just right there in plain sight, this report,

11:02

which is available to the public, stated that groundwater measurements throughout the sort

11:06

of Silver Peak area, um, had decreased significantly.

11:10

And the, the hydrologist, the water scientist behind

11:13

that report was very direct in his statement saying,

11:16

and this is attributable to the, the mine,

11:19

the lithium mine at Silver Peak. So we had the work of a, of a scientist who had previously,

11:24

you know, had spent I think 30 years working

11:26

for the US Geological Survey. So somebody, a very credentialed person, um, was,

11:32

was taking these measurements and the county knew about it.

11:35

Um, but actually the state, um, gives out, you know,

11:40

something that we learned through the process of our reporting.

11:42

When the state gives out water rights to industry, um,

11:46

to other stakeholders, it's based on an antiquated system

11:50

that's not actually <laugh> related to

11:53

how much water is really available. Um, and that was kind of one of the discoveries.

11:57

And you're, you're seeing a lot more of this in, in the media kind of across the country.

12:01

We're learning that groundwater management across the board

12:05

in America is, is is being done very poorly.

12:09

Um, we don't really have a strong infrastructure for that.

12:11

And Nevada is, is kind of, is no different.

12:14

It seems that Nevada is starting to, you know, even I think Morgan, um, if it was either you

12:19

or Jordan Gerard who spoke to, I think it was Jordan actually who spoke to Nile Pennington

12:23

as we were getting near to publication, um, about, you know,

12:26

we're not there, there's a real problem with the amount

12:29

of data that's available. And he said, yeah, Nevada needs to measure, go measure

12:32

how much water it really has so that we can start working off of informed, um, numbers

12:37

and make informed decisions instead

12:39

of using this antiquated system. Uh, but Almar basically said, you know, we're allowed

12:43

to use, we have the permits, the, the state water engineer has

12:46

allowed us to take this much water. So what we're doing is within our rights, it's legal, it's,

12:51

it's under the sort of, you know, government oversight

12:55

and yet you've got these different entities and government not really speaking to each other,

12:58

not sharing data and big data, you know, big data gaps.

13:02

So that's what we really, uh, were able to uncover.

13:06

- Awesome. Morgan, Lauren just mentioned, um,

13:09

the water issues at Silver Peak. Are there any other lessons from that mine that sort

13:14

of apply to mining, that should apply to mining going forward?

13:18

- I mean, I think Lauren really touched on it pretty well is

13:21

that there's a lot about mining that

13:26

we know about in terms of scientific research,

13:29

but we're not necessarily legislating.

13:31

So kind of there's a large gap that we're seeing between

13:34

what the legislation allows versus what environmentalists are kind of advocating for.

13:39

And not even just environmentalists use water scientists

13:41

that, you know, it is their job to go out there

13:44

and keep track of all of this, and they're kind of like, yo, what is going on?

13:50

Why, why aren't more people concerned about this?

13:53

I mean, you know, Nile's been measuring that same well

13:56

for decades. Um, as we,

13:59

as we wrote given giving it the old Nile Pennington test

14:03

and just seeing year after year

14:06

after year, that rock hitting further

14:09

and further down until now it's not even hitting

14:12

water 'cause there's no water left. - Emma, I wanna bring you back in

14:16

and ask about Thacker Pass. Uh, it's a name that probably a lot of listeners here

14:23

recognize due to, uh, the efforts of the Reno Sparks Indian Colony

14:26

and the Summit Lake Ute tribe, uh, pushing to stop the mine,

14:31

which is located on the site

14:33

or the very least very near an 1865 massacre, uh,

14:39

so far it looks like that, uh, that fight they, they are losing.

14:44

What makes Thacker Pass so important

14:47

or such a big deal in terms of

14:51

lithium development in the us? - Yeah, and first I would just say that as far

14:55

as the tribal issues going on there, Noelle Smith

14:58

and Pacey Garcia have ran a really great article about that,

15:02

um, specifically during our project.

15:05

Um, but yeah, as far as domestic lithium, um,

15:09

development Thacker paths is gonna be incredibly important.

15:12

It's going to decrease our dependence on foreign, um,

15:16

companies significantly, significantly, um,

15:19

for both lithium production but, and battery manufacturing.

15:22

Um, so Lithium Americas is actually signed a huge deal

15:26

with their largest stakeholder, um, general Motors.

15:30

Um, and they have basically, um,

15:35

verbally have told, guaranteed, I guess, um,

15:38

that everything will be kept domestically.

15:41

Um, everything from production to, you know,

15:44

selling these products is gonna be within the us.

15:47

Uh, now technically nothing actually stops 'em from selling

15:51

outside of our borders. Um, nothing legally would stop them from doing that.

15:57

Um, and there might be good reason to even think that they would, there might be a broader market for

16:00

that out there, um, especially since a lot of their

16:04

locations, um, for manufacturing these batteries are

16:07

outside of the us. Um, but that being said, they have

16:13

invested a lot in, um, expanding the US EV production.

16:19

So, um, you know, that is definitely encouraging

16:23

and it definitely shows us that, um,

16:27

there are efforts being made to make sure

16:29

that these products stay within the us. - And then what's the groundwater situation

16:33

potentially at Thacker Pass? - Um, well, as far as groundwater, um,

16:41

basically we've been, um,

16:43

so Tim Crowley was someone we spoke to over there.

16:46

He's the VP for government affairs over at Lithium Americas.

16:49

Um, and according to him, um,

16:53

there won't be any damage, um, any negative effects

16:57

to people living in the area surrounding Thater Pass.

17:00

Um, though he does confirm that there will be 10 feet

17:04

of drawdown, um, in the groundwater levels.

17:08

And so, you know, that can create, you know,

17:11

different envir, there's different environmental implications for that and how that could affect the soil,

17:16

um, groundwater quality. Um, but he ensures, he stated

17:21

that there will be no negative effects. Um, and so that water is going to be sourced primarily from,

17:29

um, they had bought a ranch that's in a nearby town that,

17:33

um, the farmer there was growing alfalfa. And so when that farmer had sold them his ranch, he also

17:39

with it sold his water rights. And so Lithium Americas has technically bought 22% more

17:45

water rights than they plan on using. Um, which in, you know, according

17:50

to them will be a great thing because that means that less water

17:53

will be used in the long run. Um, but you know, it's hard to guarantee that

17:59

there won't be any negative impacts when there's 10 feet

18:03

of drawdown happening within several miles of a radius

18:06

of the facility. - Emma, quick dumb question for you.

18:11

Is that groundwater or Colorado River Water?

18:14

- So this is going to be, so it's groundwater.

18:17

Um, so yeah, their, their primary water source from the farmer

18:21

is gonna be groundwater well water. Um, but then they also, that's a primary source,

18:27

but they will also be taking from the Quinn River Basin, um,

18:30

in Nevada as well, so that, um,

18:35

those are their primary places. So the Colorado River doesn't necessarily have a strong

18:40

connection as far as use to this project specifically, um,

18:44

but definitely for others. Yeah. - Yeah. And you know, of, of the dozens

18:48

of projects we looked at, based on where they are in this sort of regulatory and,

18:53

and permitting process, you actually don't even disclose

18:56

how much water you're going to use and where you're going to get it from

18:59

until pretty late in the process of actually getting all the formal approvals.

19:05

So you can be pretty far into a project in the middle

19:08

of the desert in New Mexico or Arizona

19:11

or Nevada, um, where there's no water in sight.

19:15

Um, and, and have already invested quite a bit of money

19:18

and resources and time and bought up claims to lithium deposits in

19:23

that area without having any requirements to start,

19:26

you know, thinking about where you're gonna get the water from. - I mean, it's not even just buying up claims,

19:30

it's also getting other people's money. Um, a lot of these projects are making pretty big promises

19:35

to their investors before, like Lauren said, guaranteeing

19:40

that they have a source of water to even operate the mine

19:43

that they're promising to investors. - Hmm. Um, Emma, returning to Thacker pass briefly, the,

19:50

when you talk about the drawdown, is that from the brine

19:54

that they're going to be extracting or is that from fresh water? So

19:57

- That'll be fresh water. Thacker Pass is a hard rock mine,

20:00

so they actually won't be using any of that saltwater brine.

20:04

Um, so yeah, when we talk about draw down, that's literally

20:08

to visually explain it, them pumping water from the ground,

20:12

freshwater from the ground, um, to a lot of

20:15

what they're using it for is just gonna be

20:17

for dust mitigation and, um, part of their,

20:22

'cause they have a processing facility on their site,

20:24

and so that will also be used for that. Um, but yeah,

20:27

it's literally just gonna be pumped from the ground.

20:30

Um, and Tim Crowley has claimed that there will be,

20:33

you know, an extent of, um,

20:37

reuse in that as well. Um, and that's something that, you know, kind

20:41

of Morgan had touched on it, there's not necessarily like a

20:44

super refined system for that yet, but a lot of these companies are promising, um, this type

20:50

of reuse and recycling of the water. - I, I, I wanna make sure we make more super refined jokes

20:55

here in this mining episode. <laugh>, uh, one last Thacker pass question.

21:00

Uh, speaking of refining is the bi the byproducts,

21:03

the waste called, uh, mine tailings?

21:06

Uh, what is the tailings situation looking like?

21:10

It's gonna be at Thacker Pass? - Yeah, so the tailing situation was really interesting

21:15

to look into because, um, I mean, the biggest thing that

21:20

I really wanted to portray in that story is that tailings last forever,

21:23

and they can contain toxic materials, radioactive materials,

21:27

um, and specifically at Thacker Pass that will be happening,

21:31

um, in fact, they're gonna be producing 272 million metric

21:35

tons of tailings that will be containing this toxic waste.

21:38

Um, some in levels that they don't actually know for sure

21:41

yet, um, as far as their, its radioactivity concentrations.

21:46

Um, and so obviously this is a huge issue

21:48

and a big part of what I was looking at, um, that the spring, um, kind of how we developed our stories,

21:55

some of the students from the spring semester had looked

21:57

into was this idea that the way

21:59

that they'd be containing their tailings is unsafe.

22:04

Um, obviously we get more into detail about

22:06

that in the story, but, so that was something

22:08

that really drew to my attention

22:11

because if it's unsafe, you have 272 metric tons

22:15

of tailings, um, that could

22:18

- Sitting out there getting rained on

22:20

leaching, who knows where - Exactly.

22:23

And so that is, um, the anticipated production over their 40 year mine life.

22:27

Um, but even still, that's a huge amount

22:31

and relatively it is still a big amount compared to

22:34

what we see at other mines as well. - Yeah, and I think one of the really interesting things

22:38

Emma did, but you should talk about Emma, is just seeing are there any rules,

22:42

any laws about tailings across the country?

22:45

- Yeah, so no, I mean, yeah, that's the big thing we found

22:49

that there are no federally federal protections

22:51

or, um, protections for citizens surrounding these mines

22:55

or federal, um, guidelines really.

22:59

Um, you know, there's guidelines globally, like different,

23:04

um, basically just suggestions I suppose.

23:07

And states have their different rules for that. Um, some were strict than others.

23:11

Some I found had really great management on that.

23:13

Some had none. And so I think the biggest thing that was concerning about

23:18

that is that some of these states, there were no, um,

23:22

tailings management plans. They had proposed lithium mines.

23:26

Um, and so if that's the case, that's something

23:29

that should be happening before the mine is developed and not after.

23:33

Um, especially when, you know, as I said, there

23:37

have been thousands of people in the past a hundred years

23:41

who have been killed from these collapses. And most, not notably the burino collapse

23:45

that happened in Brazil, um, a few years ago

23:48

that killed 300 people nearly.

23:50

And, um, you know, there will be decades if not hundreds

23:54

of years, um, of damage to their land, their soil,

23:58

their crops, and so yeah, obviously it's, um,

24:00

it's a pretty big deal and it happens more commonly than people think.

24:05

And I had never heard about it before and I didn't know that it was even a thing,

24:10

but, you know, it's a big deal. So,

24:12

- Um, Emma, where does Nevada fall in terms

24:15

of state regulations for tailings?

24:18

- Um, the companies are definitely, um,

24:23

they are able to kind of set their own rules.

24:25

I, I guess is probably the best way to say it. I think that they have, um, decent

24:29

regulatory systems in general for mining compared

24:32

to some other states, but they don't necessarily have laws

24:36

pertaining very specifically to tailings management.

24:39

A lot of times, and this is what I found in a lot of states,

24:42

that, um, tailings are kind of a part of a broader category

24:46

of waste and, um, sometimes there's no differentiation

24:51

between, um, chemical waste versus,

24:57

you know, um, you know,

24:59

non-radioactive versus radioactive waste, that kind of thing.

25:02

And that's something that's important too, because all these waste need to be handled differently.

25:07

They have different effects when, um, there's exposure.

25:10

And so that was something that was interesting about tailings, is that it was kind

25:13

of in this collective group of sometimes not even just

25:16

waste, sometimes it just was in the category of, um,

25:20

you know, kind of just their, I forget the word for it,

25:23

but they're just kind of rock waste, which I guess is entirely, that's even more broad.

25:28

And so that's something that, um, I think Nevada is also doing.

25:32

So - One of the things I really appreciated about this piece,

25:37

starting with these very high profile examples,

25:40

but then pointing out that these problems are going

25:44

to scale up rapidly and you, your, your team, Lauren discovered 72

25:51

proposed lithium mines pending in the US right now.

25:54

Of those 72, 40 of them are in Nevada,

25:59

I've never seen that number collected in one place before.

26:01

How how'd you put that together? - Yeah, isn't that wild? Um, there we weren't able

26:07

to find a place where that number had been collected either,

26:09

and we looked <laugh>, we looked quite a bit. Um, so we did the sort of, you know, the, the boots

26:15

and leather work of, of reporters, um, you know,

26:18

that reporters have done for generations of, of trying

26:21

to determine what that number would be based upon our own research.

26:25

So, um, you know, Morgan and Emma were a big part of this.

26:28

In addition to the, to our, you know, the rest of the team,

26:31

which was a, as a total group of 15 reporters, um,

26:35

we looked online as much as we can for media reports

26:39

that suggested that there was something kind

26:42

of in the works in a, in an area. And then we, we dug

26:45

to find if there were any actual filings done by the company

26:50

regarding the project so that we could vet if the project was real or not.

26:53

So we didn't base our number just on finding media reports.

26:56

We based our number on using media reports as, as sort

27:00

of like a, what I would call a breadcrumb trail

27:02

and then trying to follow the bread breadcrumbs home somewhere.

27:06

And so we found technical reports, we found environmental disclosures, we found SEC, um,

27:12

you know, uh, corporate, uh, filings, financial filings, um,

27:16

that describes these projects

27:18

and all the sort of various stages. Some of them were just in exploratory phases.

27:21

Some of them were farther along in the permitting process

27:24

and had already reached the point in their process

27:26

where they had to identify the source of water.

27:29

I think of the 72 mines and work, and you'll be able to correct me on this,

27:32

of the 72 mines we identified, was it less than 10

27:36

or around 10 that had already disclosed

27:39

how much water they would be using.

27:42

It's a very low number. And so to know these, these mines are, are coming

27:47

and they're coming in different states and they're, some of them are on state land, some

27:50

of them are on federal land, some of them are on private land.

27:53

So their sort of regulatory journeys will,

27:55

will vary depending on all those different criteria.

27:59

But there's a lot of incentives from the government

28:02

to get these mines online as quickly as possible

28:05

and get them extracting lithium in its large, you know,

28:09

quantities as possible. Um, so we really did the, the labor of,

28:13

of pulling together all of these different reports,

28:17

vetting them and, and determining, uh, this number of 72.

28:21

- Um, Morgan, did you have a number you were gonna pull up there?

28:24

- Yes. So the number of mines

28:28

that specified the amount of water that they would need was only 17 out of, um,

28:34

the 72 that we looked at. And then the number of mindset specified, um,

28:39

that they would be using up a water source was six,

28:44

is what we have on hand. - Wow. So they came out

28:47

and said they're gonna completely use up a, the water,

28:50

- Not necessarily completely use up, but use like a

28:53

- Okay. In - That <laugh>. - Mm. Um, Morgan,

28:57

tell us a little bit more about those water findings.

28:59

You said 17 specified may, something about

29:02

how much water they were gonna use. Um, were you guys able to sort of project

29:06

and put together a, an estimate of how much water they could all use if they

29:09

were all to come online? And if so, um, tell us about that.

29:14

- So, um, we really tried <laugh>, um,

29:19

but this kind of goes back to what Lauren was mentioning earlier about the kind

29:24

of wishy-washy federal regulation on water use

29:27

when it comes to mining. When I say 17 mines specified water use,

29:33

that could literally just be like, Hey, we think we're gonna use this much,

29:38

or we're gonna use this much per day,

29:40

but not necessarily tell us how many days they're operating

29:43

or we're going to use this much

29:47

for this part of the mine, but they're not giving like, the full life cycle.

29:52

Um, so we really tried, Alex really, really tried

29:56

to get us an entire estimate, um,

30:00

but we just really weren't able to, 'cause if they're just not required to really kind

30:04

of outright tell us, um, or tell regulators even really throughout most

30:09

of the process, um, most of the regulatory process,

30:12

both state and federal, um, how much water they're gonna need.

30:16

So unfortunately we were not able to come up with a cumulative total.

30:20

- And with some of these mines, I mean, they're all using different processes to extract lithium.

30:25

So, you know, Emma alluded to Thacker Pass using a ore

30:29

or rock, um, you know, sort of format

30:32

to extract lithium from the rock in Silver Peak they're

30:35

using, they're pulling lithium out of brine water out

30:38

of this salty, uh, mineral rich water

30:41

and extracting it from there. So depending on the process they're using,

30:44

it'll involve a slightly different, um, you know, amount

30:47

of fresh water and technique of fresh water. Um, you know, there's some people saying they're gonna

30:52

recycle water, but they don't know how. Um, or, um, you know, there, there's, there's other people

30:58

who are saying that they plan to use no water,

31:01

but we know that's not true because, you know, um, uh,

31:05

'cause we've seen how that's done, where we've seen places that are trying to use new techniques

31:08

that have never been done at scale before. I mean, and, and the salt and sea, uh,

31:12

the water use around that project. Those projects in California, um, they're, uh, they're using

31:20

less brine water, but more fresh water that I think even Silver Peak is using.

31:25

Uh, but it looks like they're using very little water

31:27

because of the way that their mechanism, way that the actual pro processing

31:30

and extracting of the lithium works. Um, there's a lot of projects that are going

31:34

to extract lithium from clay, and I don't think there's a process

31:38

for extracting lithium from clay that's been agreed upon

31:41

as a sort of scientifically sound way to do it.

31:44

So again, charging ahead with these projects,

31:46

getting permits and would not only do we know, not know

31:48

how much water is gonna be used, but we're not even sure necessarily

31:51

how we're gonna get the lithium out to begin with. <laugh>

31:55

- Something else I also wanna add about kind of

31:57

how these companies are presenting their water use.

32:00

Something that almost everyone on the team had

32:03

to get familiar with was the unit of measurement acre feet.

32:07

Um, which, you know, we spent time

32:11

and Alex spent time kind of memorizing the conversion

32:14

to gallons. And it's a really,

32:22

I don't wanna say deceptive, but it's a way to present the amount of water

32:25

that they're using, um, in much smaller means than kind of

32:30

how the normal person can kind of wrap their brain around it.

32:34

Um, I'm gonna take the time

32:37

to give you the <laugh> the conversion that I have no longer memorized.

32:42

Um, of course it is a saved

32:46

search in my Google. Um, so one

32:54

acre feet is approximately,

33:00

um, 326,000 gallons of water,

33:05

um, or just of anything. Um, so that is like such a big

33:12

number to just have like a one to that number ratio.

33:16

So it was kind of crazy to

33:20

be doing these conversions and be like, oh, this number on paper that they're filing

33:24

with the SEC seems like nothing.

33:27

And then you do the conversion and it's like, wait a second.

33:30

How many swimming? How many Olympic size swimming pools is that?

33:32

How many cups of water can I like, consume <laugh> of

33:37

that amount of water? Um, so yeah, that's just something

33:40

that I thought was really interesting and kind of was a challenge in writing this was trying

33:45

to convey just how much water all of this is

33:50

to kind of really wrap your mind around it.

33:52

- I I wanna take a step sideways and ask about the process of reporting this story, uh,

33:58

by my count, I think that there are 15 credited reporters on this piece, which gives you a sense

34:04

of the scale and importance of it.

34:07

Uh, for any of you, maybe this is starting with Lauren

34:10

as the editor and professor, uh, but what's that process like coordinating a team

34:17

that big on a project of this scope? - Yeah, that's a great question.

34:21

Um, the, the, the short answer is, it, it ain't easy

34:25

<laugh>, but the, but, uh, let me give you a little context.

34:28

So this project was reported

34:31

and produced out of the Howard Center for Investigative Journalism, which is a unit

34:35

of the Cronk High School of Journalism at a SU,

34:37

where we do original investigative reporting.

34:40

And so the students who come through that program like Morgan

34:43

and Emma, um, are, um, were master's students.

34:47

Um, they've now graduated, um, who at,

34:50

as their capstone experience would enroll in the Howard

34:53

Center and participate whatever investigative reporting

34:56

project was taking place that semester. Um, but prior to arriving in the Howard Center, Emma

35:01

and Morgan and, and their peers went through a very, very,

35:04

um, uh, you know, intentional curriculum to learn about

35:09

data and how we use data in investigative reporting.

35:12

Uh, they, they study just the techniques

35:14

of investigative reporting, how to, how to do public records requests, how to do depth research and

35:20

and depth interviews with sources, how to do, um, sources

35:23

with potentially confrontational, um,

35:26

or, you know, challenging sources. Um, how to, how to find, you know, these kinds

35:32

of documents from like offices of Inspector General

35:35

or the Government Accountability office where,

35:37

where government programs are audited. Um, so they're prepared through this program

35:44

to get to the Howard Center and then dive deeply into an original national

35:49

investigative project. And so managing the group of 15 reporters, yeah, not,

35:54

not an easy thing to do, but what we did is we had students focusing on sort

35:59

of different reporting threads at different times.

36:02

Um, so every once in a while we would, we would flare out,

36:05

people would start kind of go running. Jordan was our main reporter looking at Silver Peak.

36:10

Uh, we had several reporters, um, including Daisy Tanner

36:14

who ran with the, the Salton Sea Projects.

36:17

Morgan spent a lot of time looking into some projects in Utah

36:20

and North Carolina. Emma was looking closely at Thacker Pass as, as well

36:24

as her colleague Annika Tolas. So we had, we had a team of people kind of all looking in,

36:28

in sort of different directions. Uh, we had a student, uh, Josh Shim Mki

36:32

who really managed the sort of data for the team pulling together everything we were learning

36:38

from the technical reports that we were acquiring about these different projects,

36:42

plotting them on a US map so we can see where they were,

36:46

where they were in relation to groundwater basins,

36:48

particularly groundwater basins that may have been already designated as a,

36:53

as a groundwater basin that's already stress.

36:56

Um, which in Nevada that's most of them <laugh>.

36:59

Um, so it was, you know, it, it involved basically a lot

37:03

of like flaring out, everybody run and go, go hunt

37:07

and then come back to base and let's, let's see where we got

37:10

and then we will re reorient ourselves

37:14

and then go do it all again. So we kind of did that process for a while.

37:18

And then we really landed just by the sort of in, you know,

37:22

uh, the commitment to reporting so deeply onto these different minds.

37:26

We landed on the Silver Peak finding. We landed on the fact that Salton Seas reports, uh,

37:31

technical reports were disclosing plans to use Colorado River Water, you know, one

37:35

of the most notoriously stress water,

37:37

uh, resources in America. Um, so you, you know, that's as we went through the process

37:43

of, of flaring out and, and coming back to base, we made these decisions

37:48

and that's how we kind of directed our reporting. Um, and then pulled together this really great multimedia

37:53

project working with NewsHour West, um,

37:56

and their senior producer, Phil Ravi, um, working with,

38:00

um, USA today. They, they came on as a partner kind of late in the game,

38:03

but provided, um, you know,

38:05

just absolute tremendous exposure for, for our reporting.

38:09

Um, and so, so yeah, so that's how we kind of, we,

38:12

we built the team, we, we built out relationships

38:15

to get the story out there, and then we just jammed <laugh> <laugh>.

38:20

- Yeah, and there's a lot of content on the

38:22

website for this project. It's not just the story you've got,

38:25

you've even got an interactive game, um, that takes you

38:28

through the process of, uh, proposing your own lithium mine,

38:32

which is really fun and interesting. Um, and we'll drop a link to all of that in the show notes.

38:37

So I wanna wrap up here by, by putting some questions

38:40

to Emma and Morgan, um, about groundwater regulations and laws.

38:44

Emma will go to you first. What do you think needs to change, if anything,

38:49

to protect communities and ecosystems in Nevada from being sucked dry

38:53

by these lithium mines? - Yeah, um, I mean, as far as just the damage that comes

38:59

with that over pumping leads to just so many issues

39:02

that I don't think people understand. Also, it outside of just, you know,

39:05

at Brian's when you're pumping so much water out, you risk

39:10

deteriorating that water source and, um, creating salt water intrusion.

39:15

But outside of that, even there's issues

39:17

that just happen environmentally. Um, even kind of what we did look at at Silver Peak,

39:22

you see, um, kind of these land fissures

39:25

and, um, sinkholes that are a direct result

39:28

of over pumping groundwater

39:31

and not having, um, you know,

39:34

the land not having the support to really stay up

39:36

and keep from compacting. Um, so yeah, I mean it's a big issue.

39:41

And as far as things to change from that, I mean,

39:44

I think the very general answer that, um, I mean covers most

39:48

of it is just having more federal, um, guidelines

39:51

and having more of a just basic

39:56

overall standard that each state would have

39:59

to adhere to as a minimum. Um, 'cause I think that's a big thing

40:02

that we notice kind of all over the board.

40:05

Um, with my tailings research, with the water research

40:08

with a lot of these state laws, um, there's just kind

40:11

of this general lack of having a bare minimum

40:15

set standard federally. Um, and historically, I mean, that's really hard,

40:20

been really hard to implement in the mining industry,

40:22

but, um, kind of where we are right now, especially

40:25

concerning these water issues, that's definitely, um,

40:29

I mean, I think we think that that's something that's necessary now.

40:33

- Absolutely. Um, Morgan, anything to add to that?

40:35

Um, I know you looked at mines outside of Nevada,

40:38

so I'm curious if there, if there are state level things you noticed

40:42

or, um, other federal regulations that you think should be in place? Yeah,

40:46

- So in terms of what would honestly help Nevada the most,

40:49

because most of these line mines are on federal land,

40:53

federal, um, policy would,

40:56

and updating that from the 1850s law

41:00

that it's currently governing most of the state, um,

41:04

would really be ideal. So there is currently proposals, um,

41:10

in the federal government to update, um,

41:14

the mining law that's governing most of Nevada land

41:17

that would require projects to prove

41:19

that there are enough water, like there are enough water resources

41:23

to actually execute the project without over draining it.

41:26

Um, however, it only has democratic support,

41:29

so it has an uphill battle, but something like that, um,

41:32

would definitely help nevadans the most in terms

41:36

of state policy. There's actually a house bill

41:40

that was just passed or passed last year.

41:42

Now at this point, <laugh>, um, in Utah, HB five 13 that,

41:47

um, states it governs the great Salt Lake, um,

41:51

and mining from the waters in the Great Salt Lake.

41:54

And it says that anyone

41:57

that mines on the great Salt Lake needs to put back in the same amount

42:01

or about equivalent, um, water that they took out.

42:05

So what gets taken out must go back in.

42:08

It doesn't necessarily specify how that should happen.

42:11

Um, I'm pretty sure there's still kind of rules

42:13

that are in proposals, but something

42:16

that really requires either from the federal government

42:19

or from the state government to make sure

42:21

that water is a priority, that not only the mine is gonna have water,

42:24

but the populations that rely on that same water,

42:27

the ecosystems that rely on that same water, um,

42:30

that everyone's gonna get their fair share. But it's kind of hard to give the perfect legislation.

42:36

Obviously I'm not a legislator, I just write about them.

42:39

Um, when we're really trying

42:42

to balance all of these different things. We're trying to balance, you know,

42:45

providing economic opportunity for these places,

42:48

we're trying to balance environmentalism, um,

42:51

and preventing climate change. So I think legislators have their work cut out for them,

42:56

and I wish them the best of luck. <laugh> - <laugh>.

42:59

Lauren, I wanna wrap with a 30,000 foot question for you.

43:02

Since you're sitting here as a J School professor leading a team doing this

43:08

spectacular reporting that, let's be honest,

43:13

is not happening nearly as often in local newsrooms right now,

43:17

particularly coming out of a, a,

43:20

a really terrible few weeks in terms

43:22

of journalism jobs across the west,

43:24

including publications like the LA Times

43:27

who should be theoretically in the driver's seat when it

43:30

comes to big investigative environmental reporting.

43:33

So what does this say to you in terms of how

43:39

we collectively, as I wave my arms generally at all of this,

43:43

uh, how, how do we as a country, as a democracy

43:47

make sure there are enough resources

43:50

or that the reporting that is happening at levels like this,

43:53

if it's 15 dedicated grad students are getting in front

43:57

of the people, the policy makers, the people

44:00

who live near these water supplies.

44:02

H how do you balance all of that given the changes in the industry right now?

44:06

- Yeah, no, the, the, the, the news industry is going

44:09

through tremendous changes and it's something that, you know, I talk about a lot

44:13

with my journalism students, myself and my colleague in the Howard Center, um,

44:17

executive editor, mark Greenblatt. The students who are graduating are concerned about the

44:21

industry that they're entering into. But what's clear is that the importance of this work

44:26

and the importance of a good investigative journalism

44:29

that spends the time and takes the care, um,

44:32

and does the fact checking, um,

44:34

and gets all the sources to weigh in that the sort of value

44:38

and the importance of that kind of reporting.

44:41

Um, this, this is the time for it,

44:43

this is the time it's ever been so important. Um, and what, it's one

44:47

of the great things about a program like the Howard Center,

44:50

which I'm very fortunate to have been a part of since, um,

44:53

since we opened up shop here in 2019.

44:56

Um, the programs like, um, the Howard Center and,

44:59

and other sort of collegiate investigative journalism

45:02

programs are hopefully kind of filling some of that space

45:05

that, um, you know, professional newsrooms just can't afford to maintain anymore.

45:10

I think one of the biggest challenges for a professional newsroom is

45:13

to maintain an investigative team. 'cause they're the most buck for the least bang, <laugh>,

45:18

- <laugh>, - You know, they're, they, they require a lot

45:21

of resourcing and they don't put out as many stories,

45:23

but actually their stories are, can be incredibly impactful.

45:26

So they actually do have quite a bit of bang. So not to, not to undercut that, but, um,

45:31

but we need these kinds of programs. We need partnerships like the partnership

45:34

that the Howard Center had with NewsHour and with USA today to get a project like this out.

45:39

Um, and so I'm hoping that the role

45:42

of places like the Howard Center can, can help for

45:45

what it's worth, um, in this, in this battle.

45:48

Um, but I'm also just hoping to see a lot more health in the news industry and,

45:51

and we'll see as, you know, our next year, um, you know,

45:55

our election year takes place, what, how things play out.

45:58

<laugh>. - Awesome. Well, we'll leave it there.

46:01

Emma Peterson, Morgan Casey and Lauren Olo with a's Howard Center

46:06

for Investigative Journalism. Thank you all for being with us today. Thanks

46:10

- For having us. Thank you. Thank you. - Here's some good water news to close out this episode.

46:19

Fonda Monte, a subsidiary of Saudi Arabia's largest dairy company,

46:24

has stopped pumping groundwater on state leases in Arizona.

46:27

The state announced last fall that it would not re-up the leases, which expired at the end

46:31

of February because groundwater is largely

46:33

unregulated in Arizona. Funde paid only $25 per acre to farm alfalfa on state land

46:40

and was able to pump as much groundwater as it needed to do

46:43

so the groundwater was pumping, came from an aquifer designated

46:46

as a future water source for the city of Phoenix.

46:48

So this is great news for people who live there. - We, well, that is it for today's episode.

47:02

Thank you, of course, for downloading and listening.

47:05

As always, feel free to pitch us an episode.

47:08

Send us your thoughts, comments, complaints at address

47:11

of course [email protected].

47:14

- Thanks again to Morgan, Emma, and Lauren for joining us today.

47:18

And thank you for listening to the landscape.