0:18

So I was joined through a brilliant

0:20

conversation, by Emma Heaps,

0:22

who heads up the Learning Design Studio team

0:25

and Simon Allistone, one

0:27

of the senior consultants and Michelle

0:29

Kerfoot who designs programs

0:32

for clients organizationally,

0:35

and it was great to hear about the work that they do

0:37

for all sorts of organizations

0:39

in different sectors. And it was great

0:42

to hear a little more about some of the

0:44

challenges a lot of the clients they work

0:46

with are struggling with today. And

0:48

also some of the huge opportunities

0:50

that are there as well to take advantage

0:52

of. So business is changing

0:55

at such a speed. There's so

0:57

much going on in the world right now we've been

0:59

through pandemics. We've got conflict

1:02

in Europe. We've got cost of living.

1:04

How on earth can organizations be

1:06

prepared and get ready? For

1:08

those challenges their people are struggling

1:11

their leaders are struggling. What

1:13

advice would you give organizations when

1:15

they're thinking about their learning

1:17

and development how they can equip people for that

1:20

disruptive future?

1:22

I think it's just a question of reality

1:24

that you can't ever go back to what

1:26

it was before. We need to be adaptable

1:29

for the change situations that we're in now today

1:32

and support each other through that. Everybody

1:35

has experienced things differently and still

1:37

experiencing things. So it's how we

1:39

can support each other through that

1:42

journey. And the L and D department

1:44

can do that by building that

1:47

ecosystem of a learning culture

1:49

within the company, because that's

1:51

really key. For people to

1:53

realize that it's okay to learn

1:55

whilst they're earning in

1:58

so many ways. So you need to be able

2:00

to build that. Learning culture

2:02

around what people are doing in their jobs,

2:05

in the workplace. And then it's okay.

2:07

To take time out to learn

2:09

whilst you're at work and that's a really good

2:12

thing. You'll be a better person for

2:14

it, you'll do a better job, you'll be a better

2:16

leader, you'll be a better team member and

2:19

the senior leaders of the organization

2:21

need to lead from the front and show that

2:24

that is good and have all those positive

2:26

messages and stories that people are doing

2:28

this and that is a good thing for

2:30

the organization to push them forward

2:33

into the future.

2:34

Okay. So that's interesting because in your

2:36

answer there, you mentioned a number of different levels

2:39

within an organization. You talk about

2:41

younger generations up to senior leaders.

2:44

Are you experiencing with

2:46

the organizations that you work with, that people have

2:48

experienced the last few years in very different

2:50

ways and therefore might have different needs?

2:52

Yeah, definitely. I think it's the first

2:54

time in history that there's five generations

2:57

working in the workplace together

2:59

now, which is a big challenge, but also

3:01

a big opportunity to learn from each other.

3:04

And everybody should be able to learn from each other.

3:06

It doesn't matter what level you're at. Some

3:09

people who have experienced recently

3:11

in higher education and then coming into the

3:13

workplace may have had a different,

3:15

well not may, they will have had a different experience

3:18

to what other people have had. And getting

3:20

people ready for work and supporting

3:22

them in that so it's not a barrier

3:25

in terms of their new job coming into the

3:27

workplace. So helping them

3:29

be aware of their own brand,

3:31

their own identity, workplace norms,

3:34

all of those things that come into when you start

3:37

a job, what do I do? How do I behave?

3:39

Is it different to what I did before?

3:42

Fantastic. And I guess over that

3:44

period during lockdown, you must

3:46

have had to adopt some quite

3:48

different approaches when designing

3:51

programs for organizations.

3:53

Simon I know you've employed a number of technological

3:57

approaches in the programs that

3:59

you've designed. Can you talk a bit more

4:01

about how

4:03

that period has impacted on

4:05

learning and development?

4:07

It's caused a big jump forward

4:10

in a lot of the organizations and their

4:12

thinking about the delivery, the

4:14

technical delivery of L

4:16

and D interventions and our

4:19

learning design studio was the busiest it's ever

4:21

been doing lockdown because

4:23

every single client needed to

4:25

shift from face-to-face delivery

4:28

to online delivery. We've

4:31

always as a design concept

4:33

of Primeast, put people

4:35

first and it's interesting what you and Emma was saying

4:38

previously, the word people keeps

4:40

coming up and one of the

4:43

problems that people in organizations,

4:46

but also society more generally has

4:48

a difficulty with is they look

4:50

at processes and technical things. And

4:53

going back to your question about how we've changed

4:55

our delivery, people say, oh, well, it's all on

4:57

zoom or teams or WebEx or

4:59

whatever platform. Yes,

5:02

we have to factor

5:04

all of that in, but if we think about

5:06

how people are experiencing

5:09

the world and during

5:11

lockdown we shifted

5:14

to make. What would perhaps have been a

5:16

three day face-to-face learning and development

5:18

activity into modular

5:21

online, delivered through whichever

5:23

platform our clients were particularly

5:26

using at the time. But

5:28

if you put the person, the

5:30

experience of the person at the core

5:32

of what you do and then build out from there. As

5:35

opposed to taking the technology

5:37

and trying to apply it to to categories of

5:39

people, you get a far better

5:42

experience, you get a far more

5:45

effective learning activity.

5:47

And we always tried to build it into a blended

5:50

activity as well, it's not just about

5:52

the face-to-face however that's

5:54

mediated, it's about, the

5:56

learning that people can go off and do for themselves.

5:58

As Emma said, it's about the culture

6:01

of learning and we try to encourage our clients

6:03

to think, why not make,

6:05

learning and development of your people, a KPI

6:08

for managers, rather than just seeing

6:10

it as a separate activity done by

6:12

HR or the L and D department put

6:15

the person at the center of it and you will have

6:17

far more effective results.

6:19

That's really interesting. So that goes back to the comment

6:22

you were making earlier about creating this

6:24

learning ecosystem within

6:26

an organization. So when

6:28

you talk about blended Simon, how

6:30

are you finding organizations

6:33

responding to that blended mix?

6:35

Are you seeing a preference for virtual

6:38

learning over face to face or

6:40

a mix of both? Tell me more about

6:43

what organizations are looking

6:45

for and what

6:47

you're delivering to get the best impact.

6:50

We see a mixture of both, some

6:53

organizations, depending on the nature

6:55

of the content being delivered and the kind

6:57

of learning objectives that you want to get

6:59

to will have different needs. Quite

7:02

a lot of clients have, liked the

7:04

properly blended approach where if

7:06

you've got, let's say eight modules

7:09

in a program four of them are face-to-face

7:11

and they're delivered in a specific

7:13

way so that you can make best use

7:15

of different tools and activities

7:18

and also, you've got the more, specific

7:20

socializing element of it.

7:23

But four of those modules will be done

7:25

as virtual instructor led trainings.

7:28

Again, Primeast's experiential

7:30

focus is at the fore of all that. It's not

7:32

just sit there and listen to a webinar for three

7:34

hours, because nobody wants to do that. But

7:36

we have that blend in there, but we

7:39

also then overlay things that people

7:41

can go off and do. Some companies will leverage

7:43

different learning platforms that they've got, for

7:45

example, LinkedIn learning or, reading Get

7:48

Abstracts or things like that, or preexisting

7:50

things that got in their learning management systems.

7:53

But we also ask people to,

7:55

go and fill in their personal development

7:57

plans as a thread, which keeps

8:00

them engaged all through the program and has

8:02

that sort of overlay of learning

8:04

that they can do all the time. Going back

8:06

to what Emma said, encouraging learning

8:08

as a culture and as a activity that

8:10

everyone does, and it's not

8:13

just I'll turn up for three hours however

8:15

my training is delivered and then

8:17

go away, because you also need to

8:19

apply it back into the workplaces as well. We

8:21

want people to swim in the sea of learning rather

8:23

than seeing it as a separate

8:25

activity to their lives.

8:27

And I guess it's interesting, isn't it? Because, that

8:30

technology advancement and

8:32

being able to provide that blended mix is giving

8:34

us a huge opportunity for

8:36

example, from the sustainability point

8:38

of view allows us to be much more flexible.

8:41

It allows us to get away from

8:44

having to ship people

8:46

around the world to different locations, working

8:48

in international teams, for example, that

8:50

must be quite exciting as that as an opportunity

8:53

for learning environment.

8:54

It is. I mean, Primeast have always tried to manage

8:56

that sustainability issue and

8:59

pre pandemic if we were delivering in

9:01

Kuala Lumpur or Thailand,

9:03

we would never send somebody racking

9:06

up air miles to those locations,

9:08

we would always source a local

9:10

trainer. And, obviously

9:12

that would cut down on their mileage and they would

9:14

also have local knowledge that they could then apply

9:16

to the learners in situ.

9:19

But, since then, we can do things

9:21

where, we can get people in different

9:23

time zones together, we can access

9:26

trainers and facilitators from all around the

9:28

world. And that can, add a

9:30

lot of richness to the stuff that we're

9:33

able to deliver to people.

9:34

I love that. So the world really

9:36

is your oyster. And Michelle it's

9:38

interesting, we've been talking about this, because I know that

9:40

you've been involved in designing

9:43

some really exciting programs that

9:45

bring all of these elements together.

9:47

Can you talk a little bit about the

9:49

kind of nature of those programs and

9:52

how those have been structured using

9:54

all of these approaches?

9:55

Yeah. We have, been involved with the program

9:58

that has a blended approach.

10:00

We get them together, they are a cohort

10:02

so a lot of the emphasis is on them learning

10:04

from each other and with each other.

10:07

Whether that's done in the workshop

10:09

on the day, or then on

10:11

demand in their own time. We

10:14

have videos, we've got webinars, they

10:16

have a book club. Which they

10:19

then come together and discuss, they share

10:21

that reading out. We are getting them

10:23

off site. We are getting them to

10:25

learn from other leaders in different industries.

10:28

And so tell me more about the onsite opportunity.

10:30

So you're obviously doing some

10:32

different elements in terms of blended virtual

10:35

and face to face. So how are you bringing

10:37

that experience of being

10:39

together to life

10:41

as a learning opportunity?

10:43

We're planning to get a cohort of learners

10:45

offsite for three days. Taking

10:48

them out of their work environment.

10:50

A matter of focusing on what they can learn. Skills

10:54

wise, but in a very different way.

10:56

So it won't be in their normal

10:59

day to day environment,

11:02

but it will really challenge their thinking.

11:05

Get them to experience the

11:07

learning in a completely different way and

11:09

hopefully, that will just

11:12

really enrich the experience for them.

11:14

That's very different to what people

11:16

might expect from traditional training,

11:19

sitting in a room. Isn't it.

11:21

Yes, definitely

11:22

people go away quite energized.

11:24

Oh yeah. They really enjoyed it.

11:26

We've had fantastic feedback about this

11:28

program it's completely different to what they've

11:30

had before.

11:31

And I think, the point you were making

11:33

previously about everything post pandemic,

11:36

a lot of our clients are more open to that

11:38

kind of, approach now. We've been suggesting

11:41

it for years, but given the different

11:43

ways in which we've necessarily had to do things

11:45

a lot of the clients are now seeing the

11:47

benefit of that as Michelle's pointed out.

11:50

I suppose, we're human beings and

11:52

we are social animals aren't

11:54

we, and the lockdown taught us that

11:56

I guess we do like to connect with people

11:58

and build those relationships

12:01

and that fosters all sorts of good things.

12:04

There's so much you can learn from each other as

12:06

well. Isn't there? It's not just, this

12:09

is the content absorb it, it's that

12:11

conversation that really brings out

12:13

the richness.

12:23

So talking about what the future holds

12:25

because, nothing ever stands still for very

12:28

long as with all that. It's a very

12:30

familiar concept to us. Where

12:32

do you see the future for learning and development?

12:35

Well, I think ever-changing

12:37

landscape for L and D I think in terms

12:39

of even recent surveys

12:41

out at the moment Donald Taylor mentioned

12:44

in his global sentiment survey and

12:46

he does that every year. That's a really

12:49

good temperature gauge or what's going

12:51

up, what's going down in terms of L and

12:53

D. Of course this year.

12:56

AI is near the top it's

12:58

it's top of everybody's minds and

13:00

in the media. But in terms of up-skilling

13:03

and re-skilling, that's still up there

13:05

because people realize that as

13:08

the future of work changes

13:11

everybody needs to either upscale

13:13

in the role they're in or be ready

13:15

for their future role and

13:17

to go into something different. That has

13:19

to be a priority for organizations

13:22

to give people already in roles,

13:25

the skills to be able to do their jobs and how

13:27

that's changed, but also look to the

13:29

future what's going to be needed in the future.

13:31

What's going to fill that gap. Some

13:33

of that we just don't know, we don't know what's

13:35

coming, but to be ready for that.

13:38

And some of that automation that's coming in

13:40

some of the AI that's coming in is

13:42

inevitable. But it's an opportunity

13:44

for us to take, rather than

13:46

see it as a challenge

13:49

or something scary.

13:51

Well, you've almost started my next question from

13:53

me, cause actually I was going to ask. But you're saying

13:55

it's difficult to predict and we don't know

13:57

yet, but are there some things that learning

14:00

and development can plan for

14:02

in terms of what skills might be needed

14:04

in the future. If we don't know what the jobs

14:06

are. What skills are going to

14:08

be important?

14:09

I think if we look at some research and data

14:12

that's been done, maybe in terms of

14:14

the McKinsey, the 56 deltas

14:16

that they have researched, there are

14:18

things in there that businesses can look

14:20

at when they're either building a skills matrix

14:22

or updating that skills matrix within their

14:25

organization, that these may be

14:27

needed and let's get ready for some

14:29

of this that's coming. People coming into

14:31

the workforce as well are going to have different skills. It's going

14:33

to have updated skills than people that are already

14:36

in the workplace. So let's learn from each other

14:38

and. And have people mentor each

14:40

other. Like Michelle's saying you can

14:42

learn from each other a lot. In terms of

14:44

experience, knowledge, skills,

14:47

so that it's not just about coming

14:49

in and reading a book or learning

14:51

about a model, it's about how will the

14:53

people of high the hat to have a difficult conversation

14:56

and how they've handled that and how they've hundred

14:58

different personalities within their team.

15:00

You can learn so much from that from different

15:02

people, rather than just here's the model.

15:05

This is how you should go away and do it. It

15:07

just doesn't happen like that.

15:09

Because a lot of leaders are challenged with

15:11

this concept of having multi-generational

15:13

workforces. And we've been hearing about

15:15

the knowledge cliff for a long time.

15:18

So how

15:20

are you saying leaders can connect

15:23

those multiple generations

15:25

within the workforce and somehow

15:28

share that knowledge and experience

15:30

and different skillsets?

15:33

I think it's being aware of it to start

15:35

with and the everyone brings something different

15:37

and that's valued. Everyone

15:39

should be valued in what they bring. A leader

15:41

should enable that and create a

15:43

safe space for that to happen. They

15:45

should encourage it, they should be honest,

15:48

they should be truthful in things that

15:50

they have gone through in the past and how they have

15:52

learned from either failing

15:54

and that's okay. That's a lesson to

15:56

be learned. It's not necessarily their failure.

15:59

It's just a lesson. Anything that they

16:01

can do to encourage. That

16:03

culture to build that up. Is

16:05

a good thing to do, and then they should be

16:07

doing that and they should encourage their teams

16:10

to do that. And the more everyone does it,

16:12

it just becomes a normal behavior.

16:14

And I think a lot of the time this is foundational

16:17

stuff. The knowledge cliff, as a concept you

16:19

know, we were looking at baby boomers and their retirement.

16:22

We've then overlaid that with the pandemic

16:24

and the great resignation so-called

16:27

but we still return to the foundational

16:29

core of you're dealing with people. People

16:31

skills are important. It's not soft skills

16:34

in that sort of dichotomy of soft and hard

16:36

skills. How your people react

16:39

and work with each other. Is important.

16:41

And as Emma said, build a learning

16:44

culture that develops

16:46

everyone. And you

16:48

can reflect different methods of working

16:50

if you're working hybrid, or if you're returning

16:52

to the office, different age ranges,

16:55

different technical skills that people

16:57

have, but focus on the person and work

16:59

out from that. And the benefits

17:01

are going to be huge and

17:03

Primeast have always said this to

17:06

some extent, the world is catching up

17:08

with what we've said previously,

17:11

but we do still need to keep ahead of that and

17:13

focus on the person and make development

17:16

at actual muscle that organizations

17:18

can use.

17:19

It doesn't happen overnight. It's not

17:21

something you can just switch on and then it's

17:23

there. And everyone will do it.

17:25

You've got to work at it. And it's everybody's

17:27

job to be able to do that.

17:30

Okay. So you're saying there's a real role for

17:32

those managers, frontline managers,

17:35

to be developing that people. In

17:37

the workplace, not just sending

17:39

them off on training programs.

17:41

Absolutely. Absolutely. They should be

17:43

interested in what their people are learning

17:45

day to day. If they want to develop

17:48

and go on a certain cost, whether that's a cost

17:50

or whether it's going to maybe

17:52

have two weeks in another department and learn

17:54

what they're doing and how they do it, there's different

17:57

ways to learn. But if your managers

17:59

encouraged by that and helps

18:01

you and mentors you and guides you.

18:03

And can help you develop in that way then

18:05

that's always going to be a benefit to the organization.

18:08

And if other team members see that it's happening,

18:10

They want a part of it. So it just evolves

18:13

in that way, but it is a key

18:15

role for a manager. It should be the first bullet

18:17

on their job description, their first role

18:20

is to manage their team and develop

18:22

their team.

18:23

I think the younger generation, they're absolutely going

18:25

to demand this as well. You know, you've

18:28

got to get on board because otherwise they will leave

18:30

and they will take those skills and that talent

18:32

somewhere else. If they can't see a development

18:34

path for themselves.

18:36

Yeah. Retention is important.

18:39

Just development in general because people

18:41

have Necessarily begun to look at themselves

18:43

and what they can do. And the

18:45

separation between your home life

18:48

and your work life is starting to

18:50

break down a little. So, yeah, I think Michelle's

18:52

exactly right.

18:54

So what you're hearing is that

18:56

personal growth is as important as

18:59

skills as well.

19:00

Yeah, absolutely. That mindset,

19:03

the self-awareness, the

19:05

personal growth, whether that's if you're happy

19:07

in the role that you're doing and you don't necessarily

19:09

want a promotion or you don't want to move up in

19:12

the organization, but you can still grow within

19:14

that role that you're in as a person and

19:16

as a colleague to other people in that team.

19:19

And I guess get better at that role and become

19:21

a high performing individual

19:23

in that role. Yeah. Great.

19:26

I love also the fact that you mentioned a little bit

19:28

earlier that organizations need

19:30

to be developing everyone in their organization,

19:33

so are we moving away from the

19:36

concept of high-potentials

19:39

and focusing, learning, and development

19:41

on a certain group?

19:43

I don't think it's necessarily an either or approach

19:46

because high potential people will

19:48

have different needs, but

19:50

then it comes down to meeting the needs of different

19:53

people at different stages in their lives,

19:55

their careers, their job journey.

19:59

Using the tools that we have,

20:01

and, you know, going back to AI for a moment,

20:03

perhaps the potential of other

20:05

tools that are coming on line to

20:07

be able to give managers

20:10

leaders, L and D people a view

20:12

of what their people want, what

20:14

they've been on, how we can make best use

20:17

of all these different learning

20:19

opportunities to develop

20:21

everyone.

20:22

Okay. So actually what

20:24

you're saying is that leaders,

20:27

as we go into the future need to be thinking

20:29

about how they're developing their teams

20:31

forward. Should

20:42

we talk a bit about learning and design,

20:44

because you design programs in all

20:46

sorts of different sectors. Are the common

20:49

themes across sectors?

20:51

There are to some extent, they just built on what

20:53

I was saying earlier about people skills

20:55

being important. So, being able to interact

20:58

effectively, handle problematic

21:00

and difficult conversations, Influencing,

21:03

both up and down the organization, you know, people

21:06

influencing without authority

21:08

is important. And these have

21:10

been the staples of Primeast's

21:13

approach for decades, but they don't,

21:15

they don't go away. We find different

21:17

models to help people conceptualize things. We

21:19

find very importantly, the experiential

21:22

hook that allows them to a

21:25

understand what's being told to

21:27

them. But most importantly, be able to

21:29

say that back into the workplace. But yeah

21:31

those things are still core

21:33

to what we do.

21:34

It is a amazing, the different clients

21:36

that we talk to across the range of sectors

21:39

that we work at Primeast that

21:41

the same core skills, those

21:43

human skills. Are always

21:45

a nonissue but a

21:47

development need. Always

21:50

those core communication skills just

21:52

down to how you listen well, how you

21:54

question? How you have a difficult

21:56

conversation. All of those things come up

21:58

over and over again. But as Simon

22:00

says to, to help people

22:02

contextualize that in their role

22:04

and in their environment, we always

22:07

want to speak to them. The learners

22:09

that are actually going to go on the course, as

22:11

well as their managers to really

22:14

see what they experience every day.

22:16

How the examples that are playing

22:18

out in their day to day work. We

22:20

could use to bring those

22:23

models to life to help them

22:26

then go back into the workplace and say, I can

22:28

use that. I can use that tomorrow. If

22:30

they can do that, then the Learning Design Studio

22:32

have done their job well. If we can teach

22:35

them something on a session that they can think I

22:37

can apply that tomorrow. Then that's

22:39

a job well done for us.

22:41

And just to go back to what Michelle said earlier, if you're

22:43

also create learning, which is a space

22:46

where everyone can learn off each other, it's not just

22:48

the expert. However you want to define

22:50

that at the front of the room, everybody has

22:53

the opportunity to learn from each other.

22:56

I want to ask a typical participant that

22:58

might come on your program. What do you want them to

23:00

go away and say?

23:01

Well, there's no such thing as a typical participant. But

23:03

what would we want them to go away with?

23:06

We'd want every learner to get something

23:09

from a session with us. No

23:11

matter how big or small that is, there's always

23:13

going to be certain things that resonate with people more

23:15

than others and people are at different stages

23:18

of development, they're in different stages

23:20

of their careers, their experiences.

23:22

But if there's something that they can take away

23:24

that they can apply at work or at home

23:27

because we find that quite a lot, that some

23:29

of the skills that we include on our courses.

23:32

You can use them in everyday life it's not

23:34

just at work and it does make an impact

23:36

for people. And it really means something to

23:38

us. If people are then saying in their feedback

23:40

or any follow up conversations

23:43

that we have with participants, that this

23:45

has really made a difference to my relationship

23:47

with my daughter or anything like that.

23:50

That's really good that people are able

23:52

to be able to take those skills

23:55

that they've learned and input

23:57

them into their everyday life.

23:59

And I think also in terms of how we design

24:01

from a user standpoint

24:04

making materials compelling and

24:06

interesting that when they take them away and

24:08

6, 8, 10 months, whenever

24:10

down the line. They return to

24:12

something that they learning

24:15

memory is triggered in them and they can still

24:17

continue to use this collateral that we've

24:19

given them. Long after the

24:22

the training program that they've been on is finish.

24:25

Am I right in thinking that you support learners, all different

24:27

stages of that journey.

24:29

Yes, we do. We have, obviously

24:31

we're driven by what the client need

24:33

is. And they will have different organizational

24:36

levels that they need to look

24:38

at. But we try to

24:41

provide materials that will work

24:43

for anyone in that sense,

24:45

not in a, bland generic sort

24:47

of way, but in a way that will come

24:50

alive for them depending on where they

24:52

are. Some of the content that Michelle's focusing

24:54

on at the moment is about developing people

24:57

who've been identified as a potential

25:00

stars of the future and yeah. And working

25:02

in that way.

25:02

Aspiring leaders of that

25:04

company.

25:05

So, wow, this stuff's really

25:07

important. It makes a difference, not just

25:09

at work, but at home as well. And

25:11

I guess where

25:13

people are really struggling to recruit

25:16

people. We all hear about the

25:18

fight for talent and the talent

25:20

drain, this then becomes

25:22

even more important is that. Is

25:24

that right?

25:26

Yes, definitely. I think people

25:28

are across generations are looking

25:30

for organizations that they can

25:32

do meaningful work at. They're looking

25:34

at what their purpose is, what

25:36

their sustainability vision is

25:39

and what their training opportunities are,

25:41

how important learning development is.

25:44

If that's coming through on the recruitment

25:46

advert, and when you're going for an interview,

25:48

that it's really important that learning is

25:51

in the culture of the organization, and

25:53

you're going to be supported to grow and develop

25:55

and have those pathways. That's

25:58

what people want and they're going to be looking at organizations

26:00

who provide that.

26:02

And actually, I guess, if

26:04

an a potential employer is looking at two different

26:07

roles, similar salary

26:10

offering, they're going to choose one

26:12

as the best value for them as an individual.

26:15

Yeah, absolutely and organizations

26:18

need to be able to see that right

26:20

from the start as their communication messages

26:22

and their recruitment strategies that it's

26:24

key.

26:25

Okay. And I love the fact that you bring in purpose

26:27

and values because I know that's important

26:29

in the work that Primeast do, and

26:31

you integrate a lot of that into the programs you design.

26:34

We certainly do and to some extent,

26:37

like I said earlier an approach that we've taken

26:39

for many decades, a

26:41

lot of the rest of the world is catching up with

26:43

us. The whole shift towards values,

26:46

purpose, and making it, not just

26:48

some kind of relatively fluffy

26:50

aspirational thing, but something which is key

26:52

to people's meaning about themselves

26:55

meaning about what they do and

26:57

being effective on a larger

26:59

scale, whether it's in your own personal

27:02

life or for our clients. You

27:04

know, organizationally.

27:06

Well, I'm really excited to see what

27:08

else comes from the Learning Design Studio,

27:11

looking forward to watching your progress.

27:14

Thank you so much for your time.