0:17

Hi, everyone, I'm delighted to be joined today

0:19

by two of my colleagues, Rachel Mordecai,

0:22

our digital learning developer and

0:24

Rosalyn Sword, one of our learning designers.

0:27

Both of whom work in the Learning Design Studio

0:29

team at Primeast. Welcome both

0:31

of you. I'm really glad we could get together

0:33

today, especially as we're about to launch our Learning

0:35

Design Studio, which is really exciting.

0:38

Of course I know about the work you do, and I wanted

0:40

to be able to find out more about this and share

0:43

your experience with those listening. So

0:45

Rachel, as a digital designer, tell

0:47

me more what's going on in the world of learning and development

0:50

for you?

0:51

yes, it is constantly changing.

0:54

I think the biggest challenge for me is

0:56

the technology side of things. Technology

0:58

is constantly evolving. Just in

1:00

the past couple of years we've seen AI

1:02

become such a huge thing. VR

1:04

and AR you know, more clients are wanting

1:07

this new and cool immersive thing we

1:09

can create. But it's good fun. I

1:11

really enjoy keeping up with all of that,

1:13

keeping up with the technology. And it's making it better.

1:16

It's making learning better for our participants,

1:18

for, the learner. It's really engaging

1:21

them and making it a better experience,

1:23

a better learner journey. So, yeah, it's great.

1:25

Can I just jump on something that you just talked

1:28

about there, Rachael, which sounds really interesting cause

1:30

obviously we are now a year to two

1:32

post-pandemic and we

1:35

all experienced the kind of working

1:37

from home, remote working not

1:39

being able to connect with people. So for

1:42

you, that must have had a huge change

1:44

on the kind of approach that you took,

1:46

cause obviously everyone moved to digital learning or

1:49

is it obvious?

1:50

Yeah, it did. It had a massive effect. I

1:52

think, all these companies that did face-to-face

1:54

training or face-to-face learning, all

1:56

of a sudden they couldn't do that anymore. So it's quite

1:59

a big panic. I think a lot of people were panicked, kind

2:01

of, what do we do now? How do we take this face-to-face

2:04

program that we've got and make it, blended,

2:06

make it virtual. It was a challenging

2:09

time for everyone. I think everyone will agree. But

2:11

one good thing that came out of that

2:13

was I think Covid highlighted

2:16

the issue around accessibility

2:18

in kind of digital learning. As

2:20

we all know, like people have different needs

2:22

and it really highlighted

2:25

the issue that we have in the industry

2:27

that not all of our stuff is

2:29

accessible as it should be. So that

2:31

was great because now people are more aware of that

2:34

and it's becoming a bigger thing.

2:36

Fantastic. So, actually to bring Rosalyn at

2:38

this point because you mentioned about blended

2:40

learning. One thing I wanted to pick up on, you spoke about

2:43

immersive learning, which I

2:45

thought was really interesting from

2:47

your point of view, Rosalyn, you

2:49

are involved in designing programs

2:51

that are often blended actually so

2:53

have to be immersive and digital

2:56

and face-to-face. So they include all

2:58

elements. So what's your perception of how

3:00

things have changed over the last few years

3:02

for learning and develop?

3:05

I think a lot more companies

3:08

now are open to having

3:11

blended programs. Like we were

3:13

saying. So it's not

3:15

just everything has to be face-to-face

3:17

in a classroom and it

3:20

has to be one week and you

3:22

do everything in that week and then you go home. So

3:24

that's really good from the learning design

3:26

perspective, because it's more effective if

3:29

we're doing it the way that we're doing it now, so we can space

3:32

it out so that people have time to

3:34

practice, they have time to apply it, and they don't get overwhelmed.

3:38

And then we can also do sessions online

3:40

as well as face-to-face so they don't have to

3:43

travel and it costs more

3:45

to have it face-to-face, whereas they can just do

3:47

it at their desks in their homes.

3:51

And it is a nice thing to have a mix of both.

3:53

I think it's the best of both worlds.

3:55

Great. And so you seeing a preference for

3:57

one over the other from the organizations that

3:59

you work with?

4:02

I think recently they

4:04

were preferring VILT sessions.

4:07

But I think now it's starting to switch

4:09

back again. So people are wanting to get back

4:11

into face-to-face, but then the

4:13

VILT can compliment what they're doing face-to-face.

4:16

So yeah we are, we're doing a lot

4:18

of blended things at the moment.

4:19

And so just to pick up on actually you refer

4:21

to VILT can you just explain what

4:24

that means?

4:25

Yes, Uh, Virtual Instructor Led Training. So

4:28

it's, there is an instructor taking

4:30

you through the program, but it's online.

4:34

And that's, and some people might have a certain perception

4:36

of what that is in terms of you sit

4:38

in front of your screen, you constantly

4:41

get bombarded with your email notifications

4:43

which you go off and then turn your camera

4:45

off and attend to those while you're supposed to be learning

4:47

or what you know is that what we're talking about

4:49

when we're talking about virtual learning?

4:52

Well, hopefully not. I

4:54

think it's, we encourage

4:57

everyone to switch everything off while

4:59

they're learning because it's a shorter session

5:01

anyway, if it's VILT because your brain couldn't handle

5:04

sitting in the same place for eight hours, so

5:07

it's normally only three or four hours

5:09

or less, and you

5:11

just have time to focus, you still get breaks,

5:13

and then you go back to your work afterwards and

5:16

hopefully can apply the learning.

5:19

And it's quite interactive as well, isn't it? So

5:21

I think a lot of people might get confused between a VILT

5:23

and a webinar. Very different a webinar

5:25

is just sitting there watching a presentation almost.

5:28

But VILT it has a lot of interaction. It has questions,

5:30

you know, we use Slido, we ask the

5:33

learners to give us feedback. And it's live.

5:35

It's all live so we can see the results instantly.

5:37

So yeah, it's great, it's more personal, isn't it?

5:39

Yeah. Breakout rooms. Talking to the

5:41

other participants, I think all of

5:43

our VILTs probably have at least one

5:45

breakout room.

5:48

Actually, I'm really glad you jumped in there, Rachael, actually, because I

5:50

meant to go back. That really comes back to your point

5:52

you spoke about at the beginning, about how you

5:55

make learning online, much

5:57

more immersive than people might

5:59

actually perceive that to be.

6:01

Can you explain how you can do that when

6:04

you are sat in front of a screen, that must be really

6:06

difficult to do.

6:07

Yeah, I think one of the main things

6:10

for me is storytelling. I think storytelling

6:12

is, plays a huge part in

6:14

making learning engaging and immersive.

6:17

Stories resonate with people. People can relate

6:19

to it. They can, really put

6:21

themselves in the shoes of kind

6:24

of whatever you've built. We can do simulations, scenarios

6:27

games, stuff like that is

6:29

really great for learners. We get good feedback with

6:31

those types of things and therefore more

6:33

likely to remember that if it's more

6:35

of a story. So I think that's the key thing

6:38

that I think about when I build, try and build

6:40

out more immersive experiences for people.

6:44

I love that Rachael. We've all been

6:46

on some kind of training or learning

6:49

program where we can then recount

6:51

the stories that we've heard and how people's experiences

6:53

are. And I suppose we're human beings, aren't we?

6:56

And we, that's what we are used to doing around the

6:58

campfire. And that's quite an important part of our

7:01

society and structure, isn't it?

7:02

Yeah. And it really helps those soft skills as well.

7:05

Using stories to help

7:07

people build their soft skills. So help people build

7:10

what type of conversations they have. So we

7:12

use quite a lot of video based scenarios,

7:15

so it's like a first person video and you're walking

7:17

around the office and colleague stops

7:19

you and asks you a question, and it's all about

7:21

your response. And the great thing about

7:23

that is it's kind of a, it's

7:26

a fail safe environment, so,

7:28

you know, if somebody fails at it, they get

7:30

feedback and then they can try again

7:32

and there's no hard feelings. You haven't actually

7:34

hurt that colleague's feelings because

7:37

it's all virtual, it's all digital.

7:39

I love that. And that's actually, that's really important

7:41

cause that's something that the Learning Design Studio

7:44

you really focus on,

7:46

aren't you about that learner experience.

7:48

Yeah. Learners are at the center of

7:51

everything that we do. And we really see that

7:53

in the feedback that we get. The

7:55

evaluations at the end of programs we really

7:57

get that. So that's really nice. And it kind

7:59

of goes back to accessibility as well and designing

8:01

for everyone, you know, making it inclusive

8:04

so everyone can do our programs,

8:07

I think is really important.

8:09

So, tell me more about that, Rachael. What

8:11

kinds of things are you talking about there?

8:14

In terms of accessibility? I think

8:16

for me the main thing is choosing the right

8:18

tool and, building whatever

8:21

it may be, building the e-learning, for example,

8:23

in the right tool that is responsive

8:26

and accessible. So people can do

8:28

it on their iPad, people can do it on their mobile

8:30

phone, people can do it on their desktop you

8:32

know, giving the ability to people so they can

8:34

do it anywhere in the best time

8:36

that suits them, I think is really important

8:39

in terms of accessibility. And

8:41

making sure screen readers can

8:44

go through the course, making sure you can navigate

8:46

it with keyboard, things like that

8:48

because people think accessibility just

8:51

is for, you know, if you're deaf or if you're blind.

8:54

And it's not it's for like a whole array of things.

8:56

If somebody breaks that arm and, you know,

8:58

if I broke my right arm, I wouldn't be able to use

9:00

my mouse. I can use my keyboard

9:03

with my left hand. So I would still be able to navigate

9:05

a course by myself. That

9:07

kind of, that links back to Covid, when you were

9:09

alone and you didn't have that person. I couldn't

9:12

turn to a colleague and say like, can you help me go through

9:14

this course? We need to be giving learners the

9:16

ability to do it themselves. And that's something

9:18

that I personally feel really strongly about.

9:21

Fantastic. I love that. And actually,

9:24

I want to sort of pull you in, Rosalyn, because

9:26

actually I know I've heard you speak a lot about

9:28

the different generational preferences

9:31

that we have to deal with when we

9:33

are designing programs and

9:35

how people respond and

9:37

have different preferences for different kinds of learning.

9:41

Yeah. Yeah it is interesting

9:43

how we sort of

9:45

have to try and create things in all different

9:48

modalities for all the

9:50

different learners that might be out there, because if we

9:52

just create for one person in

9:54

terms of accessibility, but also in terms of

9:56

the content and whether it lands

9:58

for them, then we

10:00

wouldn't hit the mark for most of the people.

10:03

So that's why it's really important for us

10:05

to speak to the learners if we

10:07

can and find out what's

10:09

interesting for them and what

10:11

do they think they need to know to be able

10:14

to do their job a bit better. So,

10:18

yeah, I think that's really key. And in terms of

10:20

generations, obviously

10:22

the younger generation at the moment are preferring

10:25

having things online, or at least find

10:27

it easier to do that. But

10:29

equally, I think we've

10:31

found in the research, that the research has been showing

10:34

lately that everyone learns

10:36

in a similar way. So if we can include all these

10:38

different modalities, then

10:41

we can hit everyone

10:43

hopefully.

10:43

And it's interesting you talk about speaking

10:45

to the learners that's something you

10:48

would embed in the process of when you

10:50

are working with a client organization.

10:52

Is that right? Can you talk me through a little bit about that

10:54

process and how it might work?

10:56

Yes. So ideally

10:58

what normally happens is the client

11:01

gets in touch with us and says, we

11:03

think we have a need in this

11:05

area, and then if we can talk to

11:07

them, more about their need,

11:10

then that's really helpful because sometimes

11:12

they might perceive that they're having an issue

11:15

with one thing, but when you dig

11:17

down and you ask them more questions, it's actually

11:19

the root cause is something different. So

11:21

that's why it's really good to be able to talk to not

11:24

just the HR department or

11:26

the senior executives, but also the

11:28

people who had actually been going on the course to

11:30

get their perception about it all. And

11:32

then, the HR

11:35

department are obviously helpful in tying

11:37

it back to the business outcomes. So

11:40

we could say to them, what would success

11:42

look like if we give you a

11:45

solution training in this instance?

11:48

How would you know that we've been successful?

11:50

So would it improve a

11:52

certain metric in your business? It

11:55

really depends what the training was, with

11:57

what they would come up with, but that's a nice way for

12:00

us to show them the

12:02

ROI I suppose?

12:04

And with ROI you're talking about the

12:06

impact on the investment?

12:09

Yeah, and also ROE I

12:11

think is a newer one, so their expectations,

12:14

if we're hitting them or not, we

12:16

have to really talk to them for a while

12:18

to get down to the root cause of what do they want

12:20

to happen?

12:21

So I've heard you say in conversations,

12:24

and we've had conversations about this before, that

12:27

your approach to learning design

12:29

is very much outcomes based.

12:32

Is that right?

12:34

Yes. I think we are keen to

12:38

focus on the outcomes because at

12:40

the end of the day, that's what we're doing the

12:42

training for, is so that we can change the learner's

12:45

behavior in some way. Because normally,

12:47

especially when we're focusing on soft skills or future

12:50

skills, it's not about knowledge

12:52

that they need to have, it's about

12:54

behavior change or mindset

12:57

change. So that's

12:59

a slightly different slant

13:01

on things.

13:02

I love that. That's really interesting. So

13:04

that's quite different to the kind of training

13:07

that some organizations might be used to.

13:09

You are saying that you bring

13:11

in a focus on changing

13:14

mindset and behaviors as well.

13:17

Yes. And that fits with our whole in

13:19

Primeast with being experiential. We're

13:22

trying to emulate the work

13:25

environment in our training so

13:27

that we can show the learners this is how you

13:29

would apply what we're teaching you. We're not just saying

13:31

there is a theory that exists that

13:34

could help you, we're just saying this is exactly

13:36

what you need to do to help you in your job.

13:39

Fantastic. Okay. So, it's tough

13:42

for HR and OD

13:45

directors to think about selecting training

13:47

partners and organizations to work

13:49

with. What do you see in your experience as some

13:51

of the biggest challenges that they might have

13:53

to deal with?

13:57

In their organizations or when choosing?

13:59

When choosing learning and development partners.

14:02

I think it's difficult for them to

14:07

know what kind of value they're

14:09

getting for their money. So it's,

14:12

nowadays it's so important to have a whole

14:15

learner journey. It's not just a

14:17

one-off training event and then it's

14:19

up to the learners to put that into practice,

14:21

and if they don't, then it won't work. It's the

14:23

kind of added value where you commit

14:26

to sending them nudges. So after

14:28

the training, every, say six weeks,

14:30

you send them a scenario and you get them to

14:32

apply their learning to that scenario again.

14:34

Or you send a follow-up survey

14:37

to see how they've applied the learning, or a bit

14:39

of a reminder if it's about a knowledge

14:41

check. It's a whole package nowadays

14:43

I think, it's definitely not an isolated event

14:45

that they should be looking for.

14:48

Fantastic. So I suppose that speaks

14:50

to every individual

14:52

is on their own journey and therefore

14:54

we need to tailor those.

14:56

Is that what I hear you saying, Rachael?

14:59

Yeah I think that's a great thing with how

15:01

we are evolving the industry as well, is

15:03

that we are getting to

15:05

be more personal, which is really great. So

15:08

it's not a one size fits all. The technology

15:10

is advancing that much, that we

15:12

can give learners a much more personal

15:15

experience than what we could five years ago,

15:17

10 years ago. And I think that just makes the training

15:19

that little bit more effective.

15:31

So, what's coming down the pipeline

15:33

in the future then? What do you see on the horizon?

15:35

I think, like I said, AR and VR is becoming

15:37

a huge thing. But yeah, like cloud-based learning,

15:40

so the ability to learn wherever

15:42

they want to learn. At the end of the day, each learner

15:44

has to have their own drive to, to

15:47

learn. And I think just giving them their ability

15:49

to do that when they want to do it, as opposed

15:51

to having set dates and times for everything,

15:53

I think that is going

15:56

to become more in the future than what it is now.

15:58

And yeah, AI is such a huge thing and it's

16:01

so exciting to see where it's going

16:03

and how fast it's developing. Especially

16:05

like I said before, with the soft skill side of

16:07

things. Really bringing that kind

16:09

of human feel to

16:12

learning and not having like

16:14

a cold experience making it like a warm experience

16:17

for people. It's so exciting. So I'm excited

16:19

to see where it goes. Yeah. Where we'll be in

16:21

this time in five years time.

16:23

You talk about a drive to learn we are seeing

16:26

that much more, particularly with organizations

16:28

when they're thinking about recruitment, that

16:31

to get talent, employees

16:35

are expecting this kind of investment

16:37

and support, aren't they? Because they do want to learn,

16:39

they want to grow, they want to develop in their

16:41

careers, don't they?

16:43

Yeah, they do, they do. People do want to

16:45

develop and, get that better job, get that dream

16:48

job and get a better wage. So

16:51

employees do need to really invest

16:54

and I think that's a great thing

16:56

for us, like as Learning Design Studio, to work

16:58

with clients who are really investing

17:01

in their employees and to

17:03

be able to see it on, LinkedIn six months

17:05

later that person on that course got that dream

17:07

job, and that's how you know that it works.

17:09

You've just given me my next question, which is I

17:11

wanted to ask you about what is it that you both

17:13

love about the work that you do.

17:15

I personally love just the

17:17

ever-changing kind of landscape

17:19

of technology. It just, every year there seems

17:22

to be something new and it's something new

17:24

for me to learn. So, you know, I'm a learner as

17:26

well. And I really love that. I really love the challenge

17:28

of that. And with this new technology,

17:31

how can I use this to give learners

17:33

a better experience? So it's every year

17:35

it's, right, okay, I did this last year,

17:37

but now what can I do this year to make it even better?

17:41

Yeah, I think it's really creative,

17:43

like Rachael's saying, and there's so many

17:45

ways that you could take the training in to make

17:47

it as good as it can be, which

17:49

is really nice. So it's

17:52

a bit like putting a puzzle together in a way,

17:54

because you've got all these threads of what you

17:56

want them to know and what

17:58

the client wants to happen at the end and

18:01

what the learner wants. And you have to kind of put

18:03

them all together into something that's engaging

18:06

and it's going to keep their interest. So, it's

18:08

a really good challenge.

18:11

And what gives you the buzz Rosalyn

18:14

in what you do?

18:14

Me I think, it's probably

18:18

right at the end when you put it all together and then you

18:20

get to, sometimes if it's a VILT session

18:22

or we go and observe in person, or

18:25

we can just sit there and see the way it

18:27

lands with the participants. So it's really nice

18:29

if you see them saying, "Oh yeah, this scenario

18:31

happens to me all the time... so, I didn't know

18:33

I could react in this way... or, you

18:36

know, this has given me food for thought". And that's

18:38

really rewarding for me.

18:39

Are you saying that you are constantly

18:42

moving forwards? That must be tough if

18:44

you are completely looking at new

18:46

and next and better all the time?

18:50

Well, yes, but also I

18:52

think our team is a

18:54

good support network for all of that. So, we

18:56

can draw on all of our collective

18:59

knowledge. We've got people that have been in

19:01

the business for, you know, 10 years

19:03

or 20 years, and they've

19:05

got resources that they've built up over time,

19:07

and then we've got the newer people

19:09

who've got ideas that are slightly

19:11

different. So we can just bring all of that together and

19:14

it makes it a lot more manageable.

19:17

So working with clients the

19:20

way that you work must be quite collaborative as

19:22

well. Is that right?

19:24

Yes, we always

19:26

take on the client's ideas because they're normally

19:28

inside the organization, they've got a kind

19:30

of viewpoint that we wouldn't

19:32

be able to have otherwise. So it's

19:35

really valuable working with them and getting their opinions

19:37

and their suggestions on what

19:39

we could do.

19:40

And especially in that needs analysis

19:43

stage where you're scoping the project that's

19:45

so important to collaborate, because like you said,

19:47

Rosalyn, they might have an idea of

19:49

what the issue is, but actually after a conversation

19:53

it could be an entirely different issue. And

19:55

that's gonna help us create something that actually

19:57

fixes that issue. So that's really important.

20:00

Definitely, yeah.

20:03

So actually it's really, the better you

20:05

can do, the best job that you can do by

20:07

really getting under the skin of the organization

20:10

and really understanding how the

20:12

culture plays out, what situations

20:14

might arise. And then you feed that into

20:16

the programs. Is that right?

20:18

Yeah. Normally we might get the opinion

20:21

of the senior executives start

20:23

with, because they will have come to us about the problem. But

20:25

then once we're actually running the

20:27

program and we're talking to the participants every day,

20:30

and they might have different viewpoints on what's

20:32

going on and issues that they're having,

20:34

which the other people in the organization

20:37

might not know about. So that's

20:39

quite valuable for us to be able to

20:42

feed back to each other where

20:44

the disconnect is in the middle.

20:46

Fantastic. Really interesting. So actually

20:49

you are really working as an extension of the team, aren't

20:51

you?

20:52

Yeah, we try to.

20:55

So, I want to go back to some

20:58

of the challenges that organizations

21:00

are facing and how you can

21:03

support that with learning design.

21:05

Share your experience about what you feel

21:09

possibly are the biggest pitfalls and mistakes

21:11

that can be made when thinking about designing

21:14

programs like this.

21:16

I think personally in my experience,

21:18

the biggest mistake I've seen is

21:21

having one or the other in terms of face-to-face

21:23

or online? I've seen a lot of that over the years

21:26

and I honestly believe

21:28

in that blended learning approach and

21:30

having that balance of, face-to-face,

21:32

e-learning, VILTs. I think it suits

21:34

the learner more because we can create digital

21:37

toolkits that are really varied. So

21:39

we can have podcasts, we

21:41

can have interactive PDFs,

21:44

we can have simulations, games

21:46

and it's just giving

21:48

that learner a better experience because

21:51

it is varied and we all have different learning preferences.

21:53

So personally, yeah, that's

21:55

what I think is one of the biggest mistakes

21:57

is choosing one or the other as opposed

21:59

to that blended approach

22:01

So that's interesting s o when would you choose a face-to-face

22:04

experience and when would you choose a virtual experience?

22:08

I think that's hard cause it, I think it just depends

22:10

on the project and depends on the client.

22:13

There's a lot of factors that go into it. I

22:15

think virtual is great for

22:17

pre-work. So having a little micro-learning

22:20

course for participants to

22:22

do before they go in the program is great because

22:24

they can just get a basic understanding

22:27

of the kind of content that they're

22:29

going to be looking at. And they'll be looking at like

22:31

in-depth more with a trainer.

22:34

And that's where the face-to-face comes in because it's more personalized

22:36

and you can really start to unpick the

22:39

issues that you might be having with a real

22:41

life person as opposed to, just a screen

22:43

with some words on.

22:45

And so what about anyone that's listening and

22:47

going "Pre-work? No chance.

22:50

People are far too busy. We can

22:52

never manage to get people to do pre-work"?

22:54

You can, if it's designed in the right

22:57

way. And e-learning isn't what it

22:59

used to be, it's no longer this three hour course

23:01

where you have to sit and look at your desktop

23:03

computer. We can make

23:05

micro-learning courses, which is great because it's

23:08

a lot snappier and people actually

23:10

take in the information. And like I say,

23:12

we can create it so you can do it on your

23:14

phone or on your iPad, or if people

23:16

wanna do it sitting at their

23:19

desk having lunch and just do

23:21

five minutes little e-learning course then

23:23

they can.

23:25

And Rosalyn what's your view on face-to-face

23:27

versus virtual?

23:28

I think everyone appreciates

23:30

face-to-face when they don't

23:32

have to do it all the time. So if

23:35

you can intersperse it a bit, so you have a virtual

23:37

and then a face-to-face and then a virtual throughout the

23:39

program, then when it comes to those

23:41

face-to-face sessions, people can do the networking

23:44

and talk to everyone else and they think

23:46

it's nice to be together, but they're not constantly

23:49

exhausted from traveling. And

23:53

the virtual sessions, I

23:56

think, yeah, they

23:58

have their place, they're a bit more tiring because

24:00

you just have to sit and look at the screen like

24:03

Rachael was saying. But also when

24:05

we are giving them the digital interactions that

24:07

are really learner led, that's

24:10

a slightly different thing again. So

24:12

it's more of playing

24:14

on their curiosity, getting

24:16

to find out more about subject in

24:19

a different way to just sitting in the classroom

24:21

and listening to someone talk.

24:23

And actually you mentioned a really important point there about

24:25

the travel element that, sure, the organizations

24:28

these days are under real

24:30

pressure to consider the environmental impacts

24:33

of this, you know, dealing with organizations

24:35

that are in multiple continents.

24:38

Definitely.

24:38

You know, should we really be moving

24:41

people around in the way that might

24:43

have done it previously?

24:45

Yeah, exactly. I think they're starting to recognize

24:48

that, and it's a lot easier to scale

24:50

up training for all these different continents

24:52

and departments across the world if it's

24:55

either VILT or digital.

24:58

And I suppose, of course, Rachael you'll have experience with

25:00

this, that the technology allows you to do that

25:02

much more effectively now with the ability to

25:04

do live captions, translations, et cetera.

25:08

Yeah we can do all of that. And like I said

25:10

it really helps the learner. And all these global

25:12

teams, we can bring them together, and it is a

25:15

lot more sustainable and a lot better for,

25:17

everyone's carbon footprint. So yeah, technology

25:19

really is really good in

25:22

that aspect. And I think, like Rosalyn

25:24

said, a lot of companies have realized this

25:26

and realized how much money they can save, and

25:28

they can still get the same outcome. They can still get

25:31

that same experience as what they

25:33

were getting before.

25:36

And actually you mentioned outcomes, which is of

25:38

course is really important. That's the point of what we're doing,

25:40

isn't it? How do we measure, how

25:42

do we evaluate if something's worked and have

25:44

we made the right decision?

25:47

Yeah, that's a really difficult

25:50

question because I

25:52

think a lot of things have been changing

25:55

recently in the way we're trying to measure whether

25:57

a program has worked or not, Because it's

26:00

maybe not enough anymore to just

26:02

find out if the learners enjoyed

26:04

it because that doesn't necessarily tell us

26:06

whether they learn anything. So

26:09

the way we are trying to do it at the moment is

26:11

to find out a few months

26:14

after the program. So if you ask them straight

26:16

after, they're likely to be really optimistic and say,

26:19

yes, this was amazing, I'm definitely

26:21

gonna apply it, it'll change

26:23

my life. And then if you

26:25

ask them three months later, quite often

26:27

they might have just forgotten everything and

26:30

they haven't managed to apply it because other things have

26:32

come up and they've been busy. So, the

26:35

way we are designing, we're trying to design so

26:37

that it's easier for them to apply it, but we're also

26:40

trying to send these follow ups

26:42

and these reminders, and make

26:44

sure that we are asking them at the right point of

26:46

time how they've managed

26:48

to use this knowledge.

26:50

And actually that was my last question because

26:52

that impact is very often we'll have people that

26:54

come to us, clients that will come to us and say,

26:57

"Yeah, it was great for the month or so

26:59

that they came out of the training and

27:01

then possibly behaviors returned

27:03

to the way that they were done before". You know, how

27:06

is it possible to make that meaningful,

27:08

lasting impact?

27:10

Yeah. I think it's a

27:12

slow process and I think that's something that we always have

27:14

to try and manage clients' expectations of is,

27:17

you are not going to see a huge change

27:19

within a few months. It's probably gonna be

27:21

over at least a year if you're

27:23

trying to shift culture or mindset

27:26

or, yeah, have a huge impact. So

27:29

we can start the process, but then this is why

27:31

it is a journey. So we have to come back

27:33

in at various points and make sure,

27:35

keep it going. What obstacles are people facing?

27:38

How can we help them remove that? Make

27:40

sure that the training's filtered down to all the different

27:42

levels because you need everyone in the organization

27:45

speaking the same language. So

27:48

it's challenging but there's definitely ways

27:50

to do it. And if we use the

27:52

sort of science of habit formation, which

27:54

we try and incorporate into our programs, then

27:57

that's really helpful for the learners too.

27:59

Fantastic. And actually Rachael. that

28:03

feeds back to how you design

28:05

it, doesn't it to make sure it's taken

28:07

back and integrated.

28:09

Yeah. Yeah. It goes back to that thing is

28:11

we want to teach learners what

28:13

to do, not just knowledge. So,

28:16

you know, scenarios and stuff are great for things

28:18

like that. There's a great book called

28:20

Map It which Rosalyn recommended to me by

28:23

Cathy Moore and that is a main

28:25

concept of her book, is that we really need to

28:27

not just be teaching people knowledge, but you

28:29

know, letting them apply it

28:31

in the workplace.

28:32

Yeah. And the top tip from that book that

28:34

you've just reminded me of was training

28:37

is not always the solution. So that's something,

28:39

even though we're the learning design team, that

28:41

doesn't mean that we just do training. But

28:43

if someone comes to us and says they've

28:46

got a problem that wouldn't be fixed by training, then

28:48

there's other solutions that we would have to recommend,

28:50

because there's no point giving training if it's not

28:52

gonna work. So I think that's an

28:54

issue that we always have to keep in the back of our mind

28:56

is sometimes it might be a job aid that you have

28:59

to give them, or just even

29:01

a conversation that you have to have.

29:03

And of course, it's worth the investment in terms

29:05

of the design because it actually makes a difference

29:07

when they go back to the office. And that's, I suppose that's

29:09

really what you are saying, that Learning

29:12

Design Studio is about giving

29:15

people the tools and

29:17

the space to really

29:19

practice and build confidence in how they can

29:21

think and do better.

29:24

Absolutely.

29:26

Fantastic. Oh, it's been

29:28

so great talking to both of you today.

29:30

Thanks Rosalyn, and thanks Rachael for your

29:32

time. Really enjoyed it and I'm really excited

29:35

to see more of the work

29:37

that you do at the Learning Design Studio.

29:39

So thank you so much and

29:41

look forward to seeing more.