0:16

Clive Wilson: Hello there. I'm Clive Wilson at Primeast Limited,

0:20

specialists in Purposeful Leadership, and I'm delighted to

0:23

be joined with James Dixon today. James is the Associate Director

0:29

of sustainability at Newcastle Hospitals and also the

0:34

Sustainability Lead for Northeast and North Cumbria Integrated Care

0:39

System. James, thank you so much for being with us today. I was

0:43

impressed to learn about your work in sustainability for the

0:47

NHS. How did you get into this and what achievements are you

0:51

most proud of? James Dixon: Well thanks for having us, Clive. Really pleased

0:56

to be here. Always a pleasure to talk about something I'm very

0:59

passionate about and so how did I get into this? So when I was

1:03

younger I was always very interested in the natural world

1:06

and being outdoors. I think growing up in rural

1:08

Northumberland, in a pre-internet era, no doubt helped that. And

1:13

then I took that through school. So geography and biology were

1:16

some of the subjects I was interested in, and then onto

1:18

university, I got an environmental degree. And then I

1:20

struggled to try and get a job when I qualified- vicious circle

1:24

of no experience. So I got a master's, but it had a workplace

1:27

module at Newcastle City Council. And that gave me a great

1:31

foundation to work on, a variety of environmental management

1:34

topics of different services. Then it took me to Newcastle

1:38

Hospitals in 2010 It was a waste focused role, but kind of did

1:43

sustainability on the side cuz that was my passion. So built up

1:46

a bit of a network and some projects and that kind of built

1:49

over time really. So in terms of achievements, I think starting

1:57

from what you would call a one man band in a very big

2:00

organization. So Newcastle Hospitals at the minute is about

2:03

18,000 staff. It sees, it serves a population of about 3 million

2:09

in the north of England. About 2 million patient contacts a year

2:12

and a billion pound turnover. So, they're just numbers you can

2:15

pluck out the sky, but it gives you an idea of the scale of things. So I was one person, one lone environmentalist but there

2:21

was a lot of people keen to recycle, and do things like that

2:25

as well as build a bit of a governance. So I think taking

2:30

that from nothing up to, getting a board approved strategy and

2:36

building a bit of a network of engaged doctors and nurses and

2:39

other staff to do good stuff. So that's something I'm proud of.

2:42

And then, some key achievements in doing that. Winning some kind

2:46

of grassroots sustainability projects with some good people

2:50

and then a bit of a brand and developing the team. That's

2:54

something I'm proud of. But I think the something I, if I was

2:57

to look back on my career, something we're known for is

3:00

being the first healthcare organization in the world to

3:03

publicly declare a climate emergency. So people will be

3:07

aware that a lot of local authorities declared a climate

3:10

emergency. And there was a bit of a groundswell of kind of raising

3:13

the alarm. And I took that and rode that wave, and I'm sure

3:18

we'll come onto it a bit later, but we managed to declare a

3:20

climate emergency and the board agreed to saying that there was a

3:23

priority for us. So I think garnering that support from our

3:26

senior leaders of such a big organization is definitely

3:29

something I would say. I would be proud of. Yeah.

3:32

Clive Wilson: Indeed. I mean, declaring a climate emergency is

3:35

a massive step. It's a massive commitment and a massive step,

3:39

and I'm guessing that others are following your lead.

3:43

James Dixon: Yeah, so when we declared it was June of 2019 and

3:47

it was us sticking our head above the parapet, you could think of

3:50

it as a political act with a small p because public service is

3:53

quite a bit of, Politics with a small p. So breaking rank and

3:56

saying, we're a big organization and we feel this is important

3:59

definitely ruffled some feathers, I would say. But it also,

4:03

certainly what I've learned afterwards it also allowed

4:07

department of Health and other people to kind of think about it

4:10

more. And then, some great work happened after that. Other trusts

4:13

did declare. At the time when we were pulling it together, the

4:15

likes of Manchester and Bristol and others were really hot on our

4:19

heels and they declared not long after, and some integrated care

4:22

systems as well. I wouldn't say it has had the surge that local

4:26

authorities have. Cause I think the last time I checked Clive it

4:29

was, more than 50% of local authorities had publicly

4:31

declared. Certainly not that many numbers in the NHS. I think there

4:35

was maybe a dozen or so proactive trusts that have done it, but

4:39

people have done, and it's kind of garnered a bit of a network of

4:41

people that wanted to push for net zero or more sustainable

4:45

healthcare ahead of government targets and wanted to stimulate

4:49

that work. But leading on to that with the national work, after we

4:52

declared our CEO Dame, Jackie Daniel, who's a big advocate of

4:56

this work was part of a group that considered it was called a

5:00

Net Zero expert panel- how soon the NHS could get to net zero.

5:04

Now I'm a hundred percent confident she wouldn't have been

5:07

invited to join that panel if we hadn't have done the kind of

5:10

advocacy work that I led on here. But that meant that there was a

5:14

leading provider trust at the table that said why we need to do

5:18

it, advocate for this work, but also to add a bit of realism as

5:22

to, the challenges of getting there. And so we weren't under

5:25

any illusion there. So yes, had a little piece of history. And then

5:28

the greener NHS team are doing amazing work behind the scenes to

5:33

bake it into regulatory requirements, the money that the

5:36

NHS spends, and then the big advocates for other health

5:39

systems globally. So Nick Watts is the Chief Sustainability

5:43

Officer for NHS England. That's a completely new role. That's

5:46

something that people in the business world will be familiar

5:49

with, but certainly not in NHS land. So that was a good rallying

5:53

call. So yeah, it gives me hope.

5:55

Clive Wilson: I'm pleased. You mentioned the challenges that you

5:58

had along the way to those achievements. Are you happy to

6:01

share a couple of these and say how you responded?

6:05

James Dixon: Yeah, well we've certainly, if you'd ask any

6:08

environmental sustainability professional, they could probably

6:10

reel off a lot of challenges, I'm sure. But I think a couple spring

6:14

to mind, so buy-in is definitely a challenge and there's a good

6:18

story around that, how we've overcome it, and also just the

6:21

scale and breadth of the challenge and that doesn't go

6:24

away. You can secure leadership buy-in and try and maintain it,

6:27

but the scale and breadth of the challenge is huge. So that's

6:29

probably the two ones. I would say spring to mind. So in terms

6:34

of buy-in if I think of my journey, as a junior

6:37

environmental professional working in the council it was

6:40

more about assessing your environmental impact and,

6:44

probably just agreeing some incremental actions that are

6:46

quite easy and quick win and probably save money and that's

6:48

why people wanted to do it. So that's not true buy-in, people

6:52

are doing it for other reasons, but if it works for environmental

6:55

sustainability, that's great. And that kind of approach I think is

6:58

still rife even 20 years later in most organizations. And it was

7:03

the same here in the NHS and in Newcastle. And how I kind of

7:06

worked on that in the early days was, go where the energy is. So

7:12

as many doors that might close for, oh, you can't do that, or,

7:15

that's too hard, or, oh, there's no one else doing it, oh, we're a

7:18

bit risk averse here I don't wanna know. There are plenty

7:21

other open doors, as a lone professional in, a big

7:24

organization- somebody wants to increase recycling here or

7:28

somebody wants to trial, some innovative reuse, just work with

7:30

them. You've only got so many hours in the day. And if you let

7:33

the setbacks and the closed doors, affect you too much, then

7:39

you'll never have the energy to push forward. So I think it's a

7:42

mindset certainly that I did from the start. I think not being too

7:46

phased by the scale of it, I mean, I was in an organization on

7:49

my first day, I had to spend 1.4 million because it was just waste

7:55

contracts and things that people hadn't managed. So suddenly I had

7:58

to come in. So as long as you're not daunted by it and take

8:01

opportunities. So people would come to me. James, we need to do

8:04

a waste audit for our mortuary, for example. So I've got great

8:08

waste stories, by the way, Clive, but I know that's Clive Wilson: Maybe that's a podcast for another day,

8:13

James Dixon: absolutely. The life of an NHS Waste Manager. You

8:16

could, there could be a podcast series in books I'm sure. But

8:19

that was actually the first manager that reached out to me

8:21

and said, look, we've got human tissue authority regulation

8:24

coming in. We need to do some waste audit. Could you do that?

8:26

Yes, absolutely, Jeff. But. Could I come and you just show us

8:29

around about what you do. And I did that with a lot of areas, and

8:32

then you recruit your green champions and you find your

8:34

energy and that's quite rewarding, working with people

8:37

who wanna do something and you can help unlock that potential.

8:40

So I got my buy-in and my energy from the grassroots, I would say

8:44

in the early phases. And that's all good, but then there comes a

8:49

point where incremental change is not gonna get you the

8:52

transformational change that you need. And that's where a bigger

8:57

challenge for me in 2018, the Intergovernmental Panel on

9:00

Climate Change they produce regular reports. I'm sure people

9:03

are aware, but it's bringing together all the scientists,

9:06

climate scientists of all the world nations. They come together

9:09

and agree the state of the nation around carbon emissions and

9:13

impact on the planet and kind of give forecasts to where we are.

9:16

Now the 2018 report was when, and the chances are even worse now,

9:20

but at the time it was a 50 50 chance to stay within the Paris

9:23

Agreement, 1.5 degrees global warming. And the way that kind of

9:29

hit me, even though I knew all this, I've been doing it forever

9:31

had young kids. I have young kids. They're a bit older now, at

9:35

the time my kids were, still at primary school and I was

9:40

genuinely worried for their future. You would never flip a

9:45

coin for a life or death situation and be happy with those

9:49

odds, Clive Wilson: Yes. James Dixon: whether it's a cancer diagnosis or an abseil.

9:56

Who in their right mind would say, you can do this, but you

9:58

know, it's a flip of a coin about whether that snaps and you die.

10:02

So for one reason or another that really hit me, and I thought, I'm

10:06

complicit in this, I'm an environmental professional that's

10:09

advocated for incremental changes and oh yeah, let's just tinker

10:12

around the edges. So I felt enormous guilt and anger and

10:16

frustration at government inaction and fossil fuel lobby,

10:21

just continuing to kind of downplay the science. You name

10:24

it, It was a very dark winter I have to say. And we know of it

10:29

now as like eco anxiety or climate anxiety, but at the time,

10:32

those kind of phrases weren't around. But I'm very lucky to

10:35

have a clinical psychologist for a wife, so she saw that the

10:39

depression was setting in and that, the lethargy and the

10:42

hopelessness and I wasn't good to be around. And so, but what she

10:48

allowed me to do was, own that and appreciate it and, know the

10:52

helplessness that you can experience and focus on where you

10:57

can act to have hope. And there's a great book that I did want to

11:00

have a shout out to Dr. Joanna Macy. There's a great book called

11:04

Active Hope. She is a fantastic psychologist and climate

11:09

activist, and I would encourage anybody that is, any of this

11:13

resonates with people. That's a book that certainly helped for me. So you focus on the areas where you do have control and

11:17

influence, and where you can act and feel that element of hope.

11:22

You can still have your climate grief and your grief of what is

11:24

to come for the loss for your kids. So they're not gonna see

11:28

the beautiful biodiverse world that I've experienced. Even if

11:31

we've managed to avert the worst of climate breakdown, that's

11:34

still gonna be a challenge. So that book really helped. And it

11:37

might seem crazy, but she convinced me, the wife, to look

11:40

at, you know, I was in a head of sustainability role at the time

11:43

on a very big organization within our city, biggest employer anchor

11:47

organization. 50,000 tons of direct emissions compared to my

11:53

five tons. I think I worked out of personal emissions. You have

11:56

got some influence. So long story short, I was able to, refocus on

12:01

that. Push my director to say, look, all these other things that

12:05

I happened to have taken on as a willing horse. He can move to

12:08

other people and we'll focus on this. And then engaged our

12:12

executive team with a proposal. And then that eventually got to

12:15

board and Channel four news covered it and then we declared.

12:19

So, and I felt vast relief. I have to say, Clive, I didn't know

12:22

what would come but I just wanted them to feel what I felt, the

12:28

fear and why it was important for health. So we framed it as

12:31

climate emergency is a health emergency. So, you know, if

12:34

patients in population health is important for us. Why aren't we,

12:39

you know, would be fools not to do something in this space.

12:41

Clive Wilson: Of course. James Dixon: So the fact that they listened, the fact that they

12:45

agreed, the fact that I didn't have a fully costed up 45 point

12:50

action plan for them to sign up to, they were really brave. They

12:54

got it. Greta had a hand in it, I have to say. So if I had enough

12:57

time, another time Greta's book and what have you was in that

12:59

story, but, Yeah, so I didn't know what would lead to, and

13:04

still now, we're kind of doing actions and feeling we way around

13:08

and leading as best we can, but in a long way, that's how the

13:11

challenge of buy-in I was able to meet. Yeah.

13:14

Clive Wilson: I so love your positivity, James, that even in

13:18

and amongst the obvious fear that the climate emergency presents,

13:23

you use language like open doors and green champions and going

13:30

with the energy of the leaders. To tap into the things that they

13:34

want to do and to get that head of steam on the sustainability

13:37

movement. I think it's amazing. And speaking of positivity, as

13:42

you know, I'm writing a new book this year, leading Beyond

13:46

Sustainability, which aims to translate the challenges we

13:50

undoubtedly face as a global society. Into a positive vision

13:55

for a better world that we can all relate to. And the way I

14:00

describe this world is highly connected at peace, healthy, and

14:05

where there is an abundance of all that makes life worth living

14:09

and where people have the opportunity to lead their best

14:12

life. And it's also a world where wise leadership is the prevailing

14:16

means for achievement. And I'm just wondering, James, if you

14:20

were to describe your vision for the NHS in those most compelling

14:25

terms, what would be your big headings?

14:30

James Dixon: Wow. That is a hell of a question, Clive. And it

14:33

sounds, I, that's a place I want to live in. So that vision sounds

14:36

amazing. For nhs. I think that fits nicely into that vision that

14:41

you've got. In simple terms, my vision for the work I'm trying to

14:45

do in the nhs. Sustainable healthcare in particular, is that

14:51

this would be the catalyst for transformative change in society.

14:55

And I make no apologies for being as bold and as ambitious at that

14:59

because I do think the NHS is something like the world's, it's

15:02

the fifth biggest employer. So when you talk to doctors and

15:05

nurses, they feel quite powerless in the big system that is the nhs

15:09

they. Change much. But then if you are afforded that helicopter

15:14

view, you're able to see that it's I think you, you can maybe

15:18

look it up separately, Clive and Chuck something out there for

15:20

people. But I'm sure there's, it's like the Chinese army, the

15:23

American Army, Walmart and McDonald's. They're the only, big

15:27

employers, bigger than the nhs, so, the potential there is huge.

15:31

We can, if we get this right, we can change society, we can put

15:35

our money in the right places. We can advocate prevention, rather

15:39

than the national ill health service, it can be the National

15:41

Health Service. So all of this I'd like our work to champion the

15:46

fast tracking of decarbonization to stimulate that. And if it's

15:50

public money and it's for public good, then we should be

15:54

absolutely using that. Not for the vested interest of, those who

15:58

are in power and are the decision makers, but to actually do good

16:02

with it. And that's the kind of vision that I have. And my small

16:06

piece in that is what gets me up in the morning.

16:19

Clive Wilson: I've been exploring the work of Stephen Pinker and

16:22

his latest book Rationality and Stephen Pinker advocates getting

16:29

data to prove the benefits of the things that we're doing and to

16:34

identify the trends that are taking us to a better world. And

16:37

as you were speaking and talking about the transformation of the

16:42

NHS from being In service of ill health to promoters of good

16:46

health. Then I can't wait to see the data that shows how doing

16:51

that makes such a difference, which you kind of instinctively

16:54

know is gonna be the case. I'm conscious that you've made some

16:58

amazing gains, James, and I'm so proud of the work that you've

17:02

done. I'm curious as to in your experience, what changes do

17:06

leaders need to make in order to succeed in this work? You know,

17:11

whether it's to do with their inner development and so on. What

17:15

are your thoughts on that? James Dixon: Again, a very good question. I think leaders need

17:22

from my lens and the sustainability world and

17:24

sustainability in healthcare, I think people just need to get

17:27

that action in this space will pay in the long run, whether it's

17:30

financially, whether it's for health gain, whether it's for

17:34

market share, whether it's for sticking money locally, so that

17:39

you're investing, public money for local good. There's core

17:42

benefits in all the work that we do. So I think leaders need to

17:45

move from what is the kinda, Kate Raworth shines a light on this

17:51

really well in "doughnut economics", there's another Clive Wilson: Yes.

17:53

James Dixon: I'll chuck that one in there. So people need to

17:55

advocate not for this continual growth, which is crazy at the

17:58

expense of people and planet. That is the kind of business as

18:01

usual we need to throw that away, smash it up and go to this donut

18:05

principle of keeping that foundation of society and don't

18:08

exceed the planetary boundaries of the world that we live in and

18:12

keep that beautiful space to thrive. So, framing your previous

18:17

question about beyond sustainability, I think that bit

18:20

of the donut is what your vision alludes to Clive. So I'm going

18:23

off a little bit on that one, but I think. Leaders if they can

18:28

appreciate what true sustainability is, and not just

18:32

financial sustainability and they kind of get social

18:36

sustainability, I think. But it's normally at the expense of the

18:39

planet, which fundamentally you need the planet's resources, the

18:43

air that we breathe. You know this and others do so. If they

18:46

can truly get that. And I've been lucky enough to work with some

18:49

fantastic leaders that have listened and heard what I'm

18:54

saying and are then able to interpret that and weave that

18:57

into their organizations. Now, I'm not crazy enough to think

19:02

that it is the NHS' number one priority. It should be patients

19:05

and population health. But without planetary health, there's

19:11

no human health. And someone else said that, you know, healthcare

19:14

without harm. I think at Global Charity, Gary Cohen might have

19:17

said that. Sorry if it was someone else, and I completely

19:20

believe in that and I should mention that I sit on the board

19:23

of the charity Healthcare Without Harm Europe. So, I think leaders

19:26

need to get it, and I think some do, and increasingly we're

19:28

starting to see that more CSOs on boards and others. But in terms

19:32

of the bits you touched on Clive, around, inner development and

19:36

Emotional intelligence, I think absolutely. So I'm lucky enough.

19:39

I'll give her a shout out. Dame Jackie Daniel, our CEO at

19:43

Newcastle Hospitals. Almost. She's brought in a completely

19:47

different kind of leadership style. There's more empowering

19:50

and not quite servant leadership, but you know, that kind of model

19:54

rather than the previous regime. I'll say, you know, is quite

19:59

traditional NHS a bit more siloed. So there's this systems

20:03

thinking that she's really, good at. And the, thinking Fast and

20:06

slow. Daniel Kahneman another book, keep Chucking Books in

20:09

there. Other than that, I saw the opportunity to kind of pitch this

20:13

as why it's important for our business. Number one, as in.

20:17

Patients population health. She was very keen to collaborate with

20:21

local anchors in the city. So was reaching out to the city council

20:25

and the universities and on a more collaborative kinda

20:29

leadership style. That had never happened in the previous years of

20:33

my experience here. So, I think if leaders can embrace that

20:38

Emotional Intelligence and cultural intelligence. I was

20:41

introduced to recently on a common purpose run a fantastic

20:44

program that I took part in called Sky Blue. So a big shout

20:48

out to them. And I was introduced to cultural intelligence. you

20:53

have IQ and then eq and then you have cq. And not just in this

20:58

sense, different cultures from different parts of the world. It

21:00

could be, you're in a meeting or you're out with a community event

21:04

and there are artists and engineers and train drivers or

21:07

nurses and their cultural work life. It's very different and

21:14

they'll come at it from different ways. So I think just being aware

21:17

and whether that's empathizing with people more and

21:20

understanding the priorities from different lenses. I think when

21:25

you're talking about leadership and beyond sustainability, I've

21:28

certainly benefited from people that I've worked with in, in that

21:31

frame of mind for sure. I'd be a big advocate of that. Now,

21:34

sometimes things need to get done and those leaders can, you know,

21:37

make decision. Absolutely. a foundation, I think that's

21:41

something that I would like to see more. Clive Wilson: Well, I'm so pleased and reassured by what

21:46

you've just said there, James. And we spent an awful lot of our

21:49

time here at Primeast working with organizations on emotional

21:53

intelligence on cultural change on values, personal values, and

21:59

corporate values. So it is reassuring that is all part of

22:02

the mix in taking an organization of any sort in that direction of

22:08

creating a better future. There is so much that we could branch

22:13

off and talk about, but I am conscious of your time, James and

22:17

I would love to just explore for. The last few minutes, some of the

22:22

next big goals for your work in the coming months. The coming

22:26

years. What have you got on your list of priorities going forward?

22:31

James Dixon: Well spanning over different timeframes, I guess.

22:33

Clive. So we, declared a climate emergency. We took time to pull a

22:37

strategy and an action plan together. The strategy is running

22:40

for five years, so that was 2020 to 2025, and we're coming up to

22:46

the middle of that strategy. So we almost want a bit of a look

22:49

back as to what we've achieved, are we, where we thought we might

22:51

be? So we're in that at the minute. And still learning and

22:55

evolving. Absolutely. But ultimately we have managed to get

23:00

our organizational carbon budget. So this is based, it's science

23:05

aligned carbon budget. It takes the Paris agreement, 1.5 degree

23:10

aim, and the Tyndall Center are Fantastic. They're based in

23:14

Manchester, but they've got a of a cohort in Newcastle University

23:17

as well, and they can bring it down to a local authority

23:21

footprint. And say Newcastle as a footprint have with grandfather

23:25

rights of all of the carbon we've put up coals from Newcastle and

23:29

all the Industrial Revolution. With that in mind, you've put all

23:33

that carbon in the atmosphere with the Paris agreement

23:37

scientific goal of 1.5, but also the global equity principle of if

23:41

you have polluted this much, you need to decarbonize faster.

23:45

managed to take that and as an NHS first brought it down to our

23:49

own organization. Now it gets a bit technical in detailed because

23:52

it's only for carbon, not the other greenhouse gases, and it's

23:54

only for energy rather than other bits. But it gives you a bit of

23:58

an idea. If you think of it as you've got a pie and you've only

24:04

got that amount of pie to eat, and if you've already had half of

24:07

your pie, but you've still got eight years left, you need to

24:10

slow down. Otherwise you're gonna be pretty hungry by the end of it

24:14

or you, it's all gonna be gone. So that analogy was terrible, but

24:17

you get the principle of we have a budget. And we've been able to

24:21

do that. And it's shown that we are, we've had. Gains in buy-in

24:27

and plans and some long-term strategic decisions on

24:31

decarbonize. Now, our heat of our gases that we use in clinical

24:34

areas are very damaging. So pain relieving gases or gas to put you

24:39

to sleep in anesthetics. Huge global warming potential. So we

24:43

now know about these clinicians know about it. We are either

24:46

stopping the use of them or we're doing technology technological

24:50

kind of advances that allows us to use them but stops the

24:53

environmental impact. So lots of good work in that space. But as

24:57

the NHS expands or our footprint gets bigger, and the UK in

25:02

particular still very gas, fossil fuel kind of reliant for its

25:05

energy mix. We basically have a lot of hard yards to get ready to

25:11

decarbonize, and heat is the biggest challenge, but I would

25:13

say we have a longer term goal by 2030. We want to have net zero

25:18

carbon for all of the emissions we control. So that's 10 years

25:22

ahead of the NHS' target, and that does align with Newcastle

25:26

University and Newcastle Council, declare a climate emergency and

25:29

aiming for 2030 as well. So we're all aligned. The challenge is

25:32

huge, but what that has done is it's brought us together and

25:36

we're starting to think strategically. So we all want to

25:38

decarbonize the. We are a huge heat load hospital in the set

25:42

center of the city, 24/7. Huge volume needs lots of energy, but

25:47

so do the university, albeit not 24/7. And you have the city

25:50

council. So these anchor heat loads all want to decarbonize.

25:55

Want to come off gas so we can get together, get our heads

25:58

together, use some government grant funding to start planning,

26:01

and we're going to manipulate mine water heat and use that as a

26:07

renewable source of heat. We are gonna look at the River Tine and

26:09

get water source heat pumps into there and up and then pipe

26:13

through the city and, dynamically kinda meeting the demands of

26:17

whoever needs it. Also, we can look at ground source heat. Those

26:21

of you that are familiar with Newcastle, we have a huge green

26:23

expanse known as the Town Moor that's just next to the R.V.I and

26:27

there's cows walking around it. And you think I'm in the middle

26:30

of a city here and there is a cow field and it's got its own act of

26:33

parliament. There's a, quiz for you Clive. It's the only town

26:37

moor that has its own act of parliament. that green space, Can

26:41

be used for renewable heat, whether it is ground source heat,

26:44

that kind of stuff. All of these conversations would never have

26:47

happened if we'd got together. Agreed, a stretch target, and

26:51

worked out the difficult ways of, getting to that. So that's quite

26:54

exciting. and then I haven't got all day, but we have three main

26:59

goals in our strategy. I've touched on zero carbon care that

27:02

is by 2030 for the emissions that we control. Vast majority of that

27:06

is energy, but there's some clinical ones, and our fleet is

27:09

quite small, quite easy to electrify. Our fleet as a city

27:12

center hospital trust 2040, we want to be net zero carbon for

27:16

all the emissions that we influence. Now, you can imagine

27:19

the NHS buys a lot of stuff, whether it's medicines or wipes.

27:24

Gloves or aprons, you name it. And that accounts for between 60

27:28

and 70% of your total carbon footprint in the nhs. And that is

27:33

huge. The embodied carbon in those services are huge. We can

27:37

only influence them. It's quite hard to control. But we've got a

27:40

great program of work and Anna, Lisa Mills works and my team and

27:43

now procurement director to engage our supply. Tell 'em what

27:47

our goals are, tell them by 2030 the NHS won't be doing business

27:51

with people that aren't decarbonizing. So you've gotta

27:53

start investing and then we'll help them. And also we want them

27:58

to start reporting their scope one and two emissions, so their

28:01

direct emissions to us. And then how we do, it's a, bit of an

28:05

accountant methodology, the Greenhouse Gas Protocol, but we

28:07

apportion whatever our percentage spend to them is. We'll say it. I

28:13

dunno, 5% of your scope one and two emissions because we have 5%

28:17

your business are our scope three emissions and we work with them

28:20

to reduce it so we can use our influence and purchase and power

28:24

to encourage them to switch to heat pumps and electrify their

28:27

fleet and localize some of their production. So that's quite

28:31

exciting. If you think about the scale of the NHS kinda purchasing

28:36

power and getting into wider society.

28:39

Clive Wilson: James it's fabulously exciting. And I've

28:42

only got one additional question to ask you, which is prompted by

28:45

what you've just said. And that is, you mentioned taking stock.

28:49

Of all the things that you've done and the progress you've

28:51

made, will you be putting that into some form of. Report or case

28:55

study that others can learn from because you've had to navigate

29:00

all sorts of challenges that other NHS trusts and other

29:04

organizations beyond the NHS will be grappling with and just

29:09

learning from you would just save them so much effort. So will you

29:14

be doing that documentation in any form? Sorry to put you on the

29:17

spot James Dixon: So yes and no. So I'm quite well connected in NHS

29:21

sustainability, you know, there's it's, getting bigger. Absolutely.

29:24

But environmental professionals were like hen's teeth in the NHS

29:27

maybe 10 years ago. now there's a good network, with the heads of

29:30

sustainability and various people across different trusts, and we

29:33

share our experiences. That's much stronger, but maybe out with

29:38

that it's, not as good. And certainly that's why I've been on

29:41

different development kinda networks just to try and expand

29:44

my own experience and get beyond sectors. And that works in the

29:49

supply chain work that we're doing because you get into

29:51

businesses that are supplying in. we do produce an annual Shine

29:55

report that does summarize. The work that we've done over the

29:59

year, how this aligns with the targets that we're hope to

30:01

achieve. And it's got some nice case studies in there about,

30:04

we've done this, we've managed that website is starting to get a

30:07

bit better in Newcastle Hospitals with a few more of those case

30:10

studies. So we, absolutely do. In our annual report and everyone

30:15

can access that. They can just look up the Shine report. We've

30:17

done that for a few years. that, there is you know, we try to get

30:22

it in our Dame Jackie's blog. She does a four 90 blog, so

30:25

occasionally she'll. On how you know, her leadership and the

30:29

pressures on the system, but also some of the good stuff that we're

30:31

doing on sustainability as well. And coming onto, things like

30:34

this. I think I was on a Irish Doctors for the Environment

30:37

podcast about some of the work that we're doing. So I think you

30:41

are only my second podcast conversation,

30:44

Clive Wilson: Second in a string of many I should imagine. James

30:47

Dixon, it's been a pleasure spending time with you. I hope we

30:50

get to speak again before too long and I wish you every success