0:00

A kid who grows up poor in America

0:02

is four times more likely to graduate from

0:04

college than a kid who goes through the

0:06

foster care system. What's going on at these

0:08

colleges is that's not the real world. This

0:10

is the real world. What are the best

0:12

and worst things about these ivy leagues? The

0:14

balloncy of campus. Professors are being fired

0:17

left and right. Self-censorship is at an all-time high. If

0:19

I had known how hard it would be, I don't

0:21

know that I would have done it. That blows my

0:23

mind. I've never been asked that. I think a lot

0:25

of people's eyes are going to be opened. I

0:27

was just like floored by this. Your mom's

0:29

deported, your dad's gone. Tried to put on

0:31

a briefcase. I would trade all of it

0:33

to basically have never been in foster homes. It's crazy

0:35

to say that to the guy who is living that life

0:38

as we speak. Why do you think that is? Welcome

0:44

to The Learning Leader Show

0:47

presented by Insight Global. I

0:49

am your host, Ryan

0:51

Hawke. Thank you so much for

0:53

being here. Text Hawke to 66866

0:55

to become part of Mindful Monday.

0:57

You, along with tens of thousands

0:59

of other learning leaders from all

1:02

over the world, will receive a

1:04

carefully curated email from me each

1:06

Monday morning to help you start

1:08

your week off right. You'll also

1:10

receive the first two chapters for

1:12

free of my upcoming book, The

1:15

Score That Matters, if you text

1:17

Hawke to 66866. Now,

1:21

on to tonight's featured leader. Wow,

1:23

Rob Henderson grew up in foster

1:25

homes in Los Angeles. He joined

1:27

the United States Air Force when

1:29

he was just 17. He

1:32

has a Bachelor of Science from

1:34

Yale. And then Rob received a

1:36

PhD in Psychology from St. Catherine's

1:39

College in Cambridge in 2022. His

1:42

writing has appeared in New York Times, Wall

1:45

Street Journal, Boston Globe, and

1:47

many others. He's the author

1:49

of an amazing new book

1:51

called Trouble, a memoir of

1:53

family, foster care, and social

1:55

class. During this

1:57

conversation, we discuss the impact that...

2:00

growing up in foster homes

2:02

has on children and how

2:04

Rob was able to beat

2:06

the almost insurmountable odds and

2:08

graduate from an elite university.

2:10

Then Rob describes the difference

2:13

between motivation and

2:15

self-discipline. And finally

2:17

he shared a touching story about

2:20

why parents should read to

2:22

their kids. This conversation

2:24

is unlike any I've ever had.

2:26

Rob's life story is truly a

2:29

movie. He's right in the middle of it.

2:32

You'll laugh, you'll cry and you'll

2:34

certainly be inspired. Ladies and

2:37

gentlemen, please enjoy my conversation

2:39

with Rob Henderson. Rob,

2:45

that's awesome to have you here on The Learning

2:47

Leader Show. Welcome. Thanks, Ryan. Great

2:50

to be here. Throughout the course of your book, I

2:52

had my eyes opened so many

2:54

times. It's both heartbreaking and uplifting. I was

2:57

reading it again this morning on the elliptical

2:59

and it's like just killed me, man. There's

3:01

definitely tears throughout. It's one of the best

3:03

books I've ever read, man. And I'm super

3:06

grateful that you sent me an early copy.

3:08

But I found this wild stat that was

3:10

almost hard to believe. 11%

3:12

of kids in a poor family

3:15

who grew up in a poor family graduate

3:17

college. And the percentage of

3:20

foster kids who graduate college is

3:22

3%. That

3:24

blows my mind. Can you go

3:27

deeper on that stat, why it

3:29

is, and a little bit

3:31

more about that? Yeah. So

3:33

this was something that I've been curious about

3:35

for a while. A lot of the book

3:37

is about class, it's about differences, it's about

3:39

what life is like at each sort of

3:41

social strata in America based on my experiences

3:44

going from foster homes in the military and

3:46

then later to Yale and Cambridge. But

3:48

yeah, by the time I got to college and became

3:51

interested in these questions, I started looking at the statistics

3:53

of when I grew up with went to college,

3:55

I was basically the only one. The

3:57

first one in my adoptive family to go after an

3:59

interview. the foster system I was adopted. And then digging

4:02

into the stats and I'm like, okay, so on

4:04

average and across us adults, about 35% of

4:08

Americans obtain a bachelor's degree, which

4:10

I think that's that alone. It's funny. I would bring this up

4:12

sometimes with my classmates and Yale or later in Cambridge,

4:15

and they're like 35% seems really low because in

4:17

their world, everyone went to college. That's just the

4:19

reality of like where I went to high school,

4:21

my expensive private boarding school, all of us went

4:23

to fancy expensive colleges. And so

4:26

I just thought everyone went. And

4:28

then, so that seems low

4:30

to some people to me, it seemed relatively high because no

4:32

one I knew went. And then I'm

4:34

going into some of the socioeconomic differences.

4:36

Once you break down by income category,

4:38

okay, obviously poor people are less likely

4:40

to go. And so when

4:42

you look at that bottom income quintile, kids

4:45

who are raised in the bottom fifth in

4:47

terms of family income, 11% go,

4:50

which is that is like noticeably lower than the

4:52

average of 35%. And

4:54

then I started digging into the statistics for

4:56

foster kids and yeah, it's 3%. There

4:59

are some stats that suggest less than three, but

5:01

yeah, 3%, which is basically to

5:04

put this in very simple terms, a

5:06

kid who grows up poor in America is

5:08

four times more likely to graduate from college

5:10

than a kid who goes through the foster

5:12

care system. And so that's

5:14

how long the odds are stacked against

5:16

them. And there's a lot of discussion

5:18

in America about inequality and poverty and

5:21

how to improve social mobility for kids

5:23

in impoverished backgrounds, but not

5:25

a lot on the foster system. And to me,

5:27

this, this is an important point to concentrate on

5:29

as well as just how difficult

5:31

life can be for kids in foster care

5:34

and how that can redirect their trajectory. I

5:36

remember I think only knowing one or maybe two when

5:39

I grew up with both my parents, both my parents

5:41

are still a huge part of my life on the

5:43

go out to dinner with them tomorrow. And my brothers

5:45

like this, the kind of the family that you write

5:47

about that you wish you had. So

5:50

I didn't really understand. I'd

5:52

have dinner, I have one of these foster kids over for

5:54

dinner every once in a while. And quite

5:57

frankly, I thought he's a little bit weird and we felt

5:59

a little bit bad. for him but I

6:01

also I think my parents developed

6:03

an awesome compassion and wanted to take care of people

6:05

and try to just have a good night with a

6:07

kid every once in a while but I didn't fully

6:09

grasp what that system is like until I read your

6:11

book quite frankly and I think a lot of people's

6:13

eyes are gonna be opened. What's the

6:15

foster system like for a guy who went through

6:18

it for I guess first seven years of your

6:20

life? Can you explain what that system is actually

6:22

like from having gone through it? Yeah

6:25

yeah so just briefly to your earlier point about

6:27

having your family having foster kids over and some

6:29

of your friends from school and stuff like yeah

6:31

I remember that experience of like going I'd have

6:33

some friends who had I grew

6:36

up in core areas it was like often maybe like a

6:38

single mom or step-parents or something but it was still like

6:40

more stable and conventional than the kind

6:42

of life that I had and so I'd go

6:44

over to their houses and like I don't know

6:46

like they did have like family dinner or like

6:48

they have cable so you could watch cartoons or

6:50

it was just a completely different reality compared to

6:52

the foster system where it's just total chaos multiple

6:54

kids coming in out of an hour it's not

6:57

a lot of adult supervision so yeah what is

6:59

it that was one of the questions that I

7:01

got which is I lived in I lived

7:03

in seven different foster homes when

7:05

I was in the system in LA

7:07

before moving to Northern California and

7:10

people asked me why did you live in so many homes like why

7:12

are you changing homes all the time and

7:14

one of the reasons why the foster system is set

7:16

up this way is often

7:19

a child's biological relative their mom or

7:21

their dad usually the mom they think

7:23

the child is taken from them for

7:25

reasons of maybe neglect sometimes abuse abusive

7:27

issues sometimes drug addiction which was the

7:29

case with my mom a bit of

7:31

all the above there and

7:34

so sometimes the mom will become go through treatment

7:36

program they'll get sobered up and then they re-enter

7:38

the kids life and if the kid has been

7:40

spending the last whatever two years living with the

7:43

same foster family this can create issues with loyalty

7:45

of the kid is now they think of this

7:47

foster family as their family and now their mom who

7:49

had been having seen in a couple of years suddenly wants them

7:51

back and so the system is set up

7:54

to like basically keep the kid moving all the time

7:56

so they don't feel like attached to any particular parent

7:58

and then this also can It

8:00

works this way for the foster parents too,

8:02

that if the foster parents get attached to

8:04

a kid and then the biological relative Re-enters

8:07

the picture they're often have difficulty letting go

8:09

of the child They're not fighting for keeping

8:11

custody retaining the child in some way And

8:13

so the system is just set up to create this

8:15

whirlwind of different homes for the kid and

8:18

it's really I Guess in

8:20

some cases it can make sense. But for someone

8:22

who was in my situation was really suboptimal

8:25

because I never knew my

8:28

Biological father. I didn't know who he was

8:30

my birth mother was severely

8:32

addicted and She

8:35

so she was she came to the US from

8:37

South Korea as a young woman

8:40

And then I was born in LA and

8:42

because she'd had run into the law multiple

8:44

times she was eventually deported while

8:46

I was in the system and

8:48

I was US citizens I renamed and Yeah,

8:51

I didn't know anything about my father wasn't until

8:53

later I took this 23 and me DNA test

8:56

and the only information I now have about him one

8:58

is his name I was named after him and the

9:00

other piece of information is that my father was Mexican.

9:02

He was Hispanic I had no idea about this until

9:04

I was an adult and Yeah,

9:06

that was that's a short story. It's just Constantly

9:10

moving the kid around that was my experience

9:12

all the time That's

9:14

what you wrote about the fact that didn't make

9:16

sense with for you because nobody was coming back

9:18

to get you your mom's deported You did dad's

9:20

gone. There's no other family members So it for

9:22

you, it didn't make sense to

9:24

keep moving you from house to house because

9:26

they weren't gonna come get you That's

9:29

right. Yeah, and but the system is such a

9:31

first of all, like it's such an overflow. There's

9:33

like a Surplus of foster kids.

9:35

I don't know if that's the right word, but there's just

9:37

so many kids in the system, especially in

9:40

like major Metropolitan areas like

9:42

Los Angeles where I grew up and

9:44

I've been so there that's one issue It's just

9:46

it's just massive bureaucratic system where no one's actually

9:49

Really that focus on any particular child

9:52

is just as impersonal system of okay

9:54

This is just how things go and

9:56

there's not a lot of focus

9:59

paid to any tailored to a

10:01

particular child's situation. And

10:03

I just yeah, I think

10:05

the big reason why is just there's too many

10:07

kids, not enough homes, sort of

10:10

social workers with massive caseloads,

10:12

super busy, super stressed. So

10:14

it's moving homes all the time. That

10:17

was one difficulty. Another difficulty was just

10:19

seeing my foster siblings taken too. So

10:21

day to day, I wasn't sure of course, whether

10:24

I would be taken to another home. But

10:26

then I wouldn't know if my foster siblings would remain or

10:28

not. I'd make friends with them or hang out with them

10:30

or grow attached to some of these other kids. And

10:33

then the next day, they'd be gone. And then

10:35

I'd ask another one of the older kids or

10:37

one of the foster parents like what happened to

10:39

Jimmy or whatever, he's off, his mommy got sobered

10:41

up and she's taking him back and or the

10:44

kid would come back two weeks later. It's like,

10:46

what happened there? Oh, his mom relapsed. And so

10:48

it was a lot of just day to day

10:50

uncertainty like that. And

10:52

then you get adopted, right? You have a

10:54

family, a mom and a dad and a

10:57

sister named Hannah. And here we go, you're

10:59

moving your it's like, wow, I'm gonna get

11:01

a family. At least that's what we think.

11:03

But what happened at that moment? And

11:05

then what happened, I guess, after that,

11:08

that that kind of puts you in

11:10

turmoil once again? Yeah,

11:12

so I was adopted by this

11:15

working class family, we settled in this kind

11:17

of blue collar town, this dusty town in

11:19

Northern California called Red Bluff. And

11:22

yeah, it was it was

11:24

the picture perfect kind of conventional family, I

11:26

had a mom and a dad. And I

11:28

remember, at first, I would call them Mr.

11:30

and Mrs. Henderson, because that was just how

11:32

I refer to all my foster parents.

11:35

But then my adoptive mom was like, Oh, you

11:37

can just call us mom and dad. And I

11:39

remember feeling elated by this like,

11:41

wow, I have mom and dad because I would

11:43

hear kids at school say my mom and my

11:45

dad or I'd see kids on TV. And I

11:47

would just think, why don't I have a mom

11:49

and a dad? And suddenly I did. And yeah,

11:51

I had a sister, it was their biological

11:53

daughter, but she became my adoptive sister, and

11:56

we became very close. And

11:58

so for a little over a year, it was just really nice.

12:00

I remember in the foster homes I was

12:02

changing schools all the time, different schools, different

12:05

homes, and I was just really unfocused

12:07

in terms of academic work. My

12:09

grades were always really bad. There was a

12:12

period where they had a learning disability, but

12:14

then when I was adopted and my life stabilized,

12:17

and once I fully came to accept that I'm

12:19

not moving anymore, my sister is not going to

12:21

be taken, like we're just two kids living in

12:23

the same home with the same family all the

12:26

time. And once I fully

12:28

accepted that and you know

12:31

directed my attention to my homework and my schoolwork and

12:33

my grades and my mom and dad who need that

12:35

reinforcement and checking in on me, are you doing your

12:37

schoolwork, are you doing your teacher calls, where's your science

12:40

project, that kind of thing. My grades

12:42

improved a lot. I had to teach myself how

12:44

to read in the foster homes and

12:46

I always found that like a difficult experience, but

12:48

then after I was adopted I got third place

12:51

in the school spelling bee. Let's say this was

12:53

third grade or fourth grade, and

12:55

yeah my mom and my dad,

12:57

they were really happy about how things were progressing because

12:59

that was one worry they had was like a

13:02

lot of the documentation from my social workers and reports

13:04

from foster parents are like Robert is not a very

13:06

good student, he may have a learning disability, we're not

13:08

sure, he's having some difficulties, and so I remember they

13:11

were really worried about this, but then

13:13

once they saw that I was doing

13:15

finding school, their concerns evaporated and that

13:18

was it was a really nice sort

13:20

of year or so, and then they

13:22

got a divorce, they

13:24

separated, and for

13:27

the first couple of months or so after

13:29

their divorce we went back and forth. My

13:31

mom moved into this gloomy duplex

13:33

behind this gas station in town, a

13:36

rundown area, and so

13:39

we'd go back and forth between her place

13:41

and my adoptive father's place, and

13:43

then one day my mom, my adoptive

13:45

mom, she sat me down and said that's just going to

13:48

be your sister this time, she's going to go basically explaining

13:50

to me that my

13:52

adoptive father was really angry at

13:54

her for separating from him, and

13:57

this was basically his way of

13:59

retaliating. and by

14:01

cutting off ties with me because he knew this would

14:03

be really painful for her to see that. And

14:06

it was really hard. I tried to put on a brave

14:09

face and when my mom explained this to me, I didn't

14:11

want her to be hurt. And so I tried to be

14:13

strong for her. And it

14:15

was still really hard on me after

14:17

never knowing my birth father and then all

14:19

the foster homes and then having a dad for

14:21

a while and then basically being abandoned by a

14:24

second father. It was just hard from that point

14:26

on. And then my mom, she was a single

14:28

mom, so she was working all the time. I

14:30

was left unsupervised. I

14:32

was this kid who had spent most of his

14:34

childhood in foster homes and I befriended a lot

14:36

of other troublemakers and we'd go off and they

14:39

have nine years old. I was smoking

14:41

weed and drinking and taking pills and

14:44

that sort of latent sort of tendency

14:47

toward misbehavior. So it was always there. It was

14:50

contained when I was in this family. But

14:52

once the supervision was gone and

14:54

once that emotional security I had was

14:56

gone, it all came back. Man,

15:00

the book reads like a novel. That's why I

15:02

told you before we start recording, I fully expect

15:04

it to be the rights to be purchased and

15:06

made into a movie. It's crazy to say that

15:08

to the guy who has actually not only lived

15:10

that life, but is living that life as we

15:12

speak. You're still a really young guy. We'll

15:15

fast forward a little bit though. And I

15:17

believe there's some people who believed in you

15:19

as you progressed in school and maybe saw

15:22

something in you. And I think it's a

15:24

leadership podcast, but this is a little bit

15:26

of a departure because I'm just blown

15:29

away by your story. And I think

15:31

your story alone is worth spending basically

15:33

the whole conversation on. But this idea

15:35

of a leader believing in somebody, I

15:37

think is a portable lesson that could

15:40

show up anywhere. And so maybe if you

15:42

want to share a specific story or more

15:44

than one about leaders or a

15:46

leader believing in you and how impactful

15:48

that was on you, especially in your

15:50

formative years. I

15:53

was, this is, I think a misconception

15:55

a lot of people have about social

15:58

mobility or how to. get

16:00

more kids from deprived

16:03

backgrounds into college. It's just we need to

16:05

improve the school system. We need better teachers.

16:07

We need this, that and the other for

16:09

the education system. But I'm not denying those

16:11

things. I'm sure the education system could use

16:13

some improvements, but by and

16:15

large, like even in the, I went to public

16:17

schools, some of the schools were run down and

16:19

I know the teachers, it was like overflowing classrooms

16:21

and everything, but teachers are still like, the people

16:23

who become educators are usually pretty good at spotting

16:26

curious kids who maybe have

16:28

some latent academic

16:31

inclinations, but are just having some difficulties in

16:33

their home lives. Like teachers are usually pretty

16:35

good at spotting things like that. And so

16:37

repeatedly, basically almost all of my teachers saw

16:39

this with it be like even the ones

16:41

who were concerned with my attention, they could

16:43

tell that maybe I was a curious or

16:45

smart kid, but I was just having difficulty

16:48

with attention and this was in the 90s. So I

16:50

don't know if the whole like ADHD thing had really

16:52

taken off the way it is now, but they thought

16:54

something was going on. They couldn't really tell, but they

16:56

were like, you have some potential Robert, like

16:59

what's going on with you? And or they'd call my

17:01

foster family, my foster parents and ask, is everything okay?

17:03

That kind of thing. But later

17:06

by the time I was in high school, I

17:08

had, it became

17:10

even more apparent. Like by that point I

17:12

was, I had some more

17:14

solid periods in my childhood and I knew how

17:17

to do things. I would practice the math exercises

17:19

in my textbook, or I would read books on

17:21

my own. And so teachers would notice things like

17:23

this, even if I wasn't doing my homework, even

17:26

if I was just barely passing my classes, they

17:29

would say, you're, you have potential.

17:31

You're just in a, you're just a very

17:33

kind of angry, teenage kid and you're having,

17:35

I could tell you have some issues at

17:38

home. Something's going on with you, but you

17:40

do. They would repeatedly tell me this and that would help

17:42

actually. I, it gave me a bit of reassurance to

17:44

hear this. Even if I was

17:46

snarky or sarcastic back to them when they would

17:49

say things like this, it did put plant the

17:51

idea in my mind that maybe I could go

17:53

to college later, would have some kind of hopeful

17:55

future. I enrolled in a boxing

17:58

class when I was a kid. It was a coach. top

18:00

boxing in Muay Thai so I go to this

18:02

gym and one of the other students

18:04

in the class was this high

18:06

school guidance counselor and he and

18:09

I became friends or

18:12

at least like we were friendly with one another in

18:14

the class and he was an older guy and he

18:16

would tell me about his experiences in the army or

18:18

he'd tell me about some interview he watched about Muhammad

18:21

Ali or Mike Tyson or something we just talked about

18:23

this stuff and then he would one

18:25

day he just told me like I can tell you're

18:27

you have a lot of potential you're gonna be okay

18:29

no matter where you end up I

18:31

can you're basically you're

18:35

all the material is there for you you just need

18:37

to be put in a probably in a better environment

18:39

and so then later I talked

18:42

to one of my high school history teachers

18:44

who had been an Air Force veteran he

18:46

recommended that I joined the Air Force and

18:48

one of my friends fathers who

18:50

I lived with my senior year of high school he

18:53

also he could also detect some potential in being

18:55

he had also been in the military so he

18:58

also softly suggested this he gently said this might be

19:00

a good path for you and I was 17 when

19:02

I graduated high school I really had no plans for

19:04

my future I knew the path I was on wasn't

19:06

a particularly promising one and

19:09

so I took their advice

19:11

seriously I didn't really know what to expect

19:13

in the military I didn't really like I

19:15

picked my job on a whim it was

19:17

half impulsive and yeah I

19:19

just left right out of high school and shipped

19:21

out for basic training at age 17 I read

19:24

that one of your favorite parts

19:26

of training was the camaraderie said

19:28

I especially enjoyed drill and marching

19:30

the synchronized movement with others moving

19:32

as a single element instilled a

19:35

feeling of belonging the

19:37

military provided a structured environment

19:39

for you as someone who didn't necessarily have

19:42

that it feels like the military provided to

19:44

you and that's why you excelled yeah

19:47

yeah I did that synchronized movement that was a big

19:49

one of just like moving together as a unit we're

19:52

all in this together all of the

19:54

teamwork all of the trust that we had on one

19:56

another I remember yeah even had

19:58

friends in high school and We were

20:00

just goofballs. I don't know if we really

20:02

trusted each other in the way that you

20:04

would trust someone in that sort of military

20:07

context. And so I had friends there that

20:09

I developed that trust with mentorship, the discipline.

20:12

That was one of the things that I learned that

20:14

I write about in the book was this distinction

20:17

between motivation versus the self

20:19

discipline, which is a lot

20:21

of people when they want to accomplish a

20:23

goal or a task, they think they have

20:25

to feel motivated or they say, oh, I

20:27

don't feel motivated to do that. Or I

20:29

like the motivation. Or how

20:31

do you motivate people to do something? But

20:34

really, motivation is just a feeling.

20:36

It's just something internal. Whereas

20:39

self discipline is I'm going to do

20:42

this task or complete this goal regardless of how

20:44

I feel. It doesn't matter what's going on inside.

20:46

What matters is the actions that you take. Even

20:48

if you don't want to do this thing, the

20:50

fact that you're doing it will incrementally get you

20:52

to what you need to do towards your goal.

20:55

And that was something that I learned in the military too, it

20:57

was just like, we don't care how you feel. Are you getting

20:59

the job done? Are you completing the mission? That

21:01

was important for me to learn, especially as

21:03

an unfocused teenager was

21:06

just you have to do XYZ regardless. And

21:08

that's and once you implement that into your

21:11

itinerary, into your routine, good things start to

21:13

happen. I don't want to fast forward

21:15

too much, but for some reason, the phrase that

21:17

you talk about a lot, luxury beliefs, popped

21:20

into my head when you talked about

21:22

the difference between motivation and self

21:24

discipline. Meaning like, because I remember this, I learned this

21:26

from football coaches. I played in high school and college

21:28

and after college for a little bit, which then created

21:30

the work ethic for my entire life. And

21:33

it was a lot of the discipline because I almost

21:35

never felt like doing any of that stuff, but we

21:37

had to do it. And I feel like my coaches

21:39

were military guys. And it's

21:43

almost like this luxury belief

21:45

of like, no, we got to be motivated first.

21:47

Like that's not how it works, man. Like, so

21:49

I'm curious if you could relate that at all

21:51

and you could expand more on luxury beliefs, even

21:54

though we're jumping ahead of how

21:56

that relates to this motivation versus discipline. Yeah.

21:59

So luxury beliefs. That's an idea I coined later

22:01

when I was doing my PhD. Luxury

22:04

beliefs are ideas and opinions that confer

22:06

status on the upper class while inflicting

22:08

costs on the lower classes. And

22:11

a key component of a luxury belief

22:13

is that the believer is sheltered from

22:15

the consequences of his or her belief.

22:17

When it's implemented in culture or into

22:19

policy, once it is promoted in some

22:21

way. And yeah, connecting

22:23

that with the motivation versus self-discipline. One

22:26

thing that I noticed a lot among

22:28

people who went to, especially people who

22:30

went to these highfalutin expensive colleges was

22:33

they would make excuses for people,

22:36

especially people who they'd never met or had any

22:38

kind of contact with. Working class or poor people

22:40

who were living on the margins of society and

22:42

trying to get by, I'll give you an example.

22:44

So a friend of mine in high school, he

22:47

could have been recruited on a football

22:49

scholarship to play for, I want to

22:51

say with Sac State, Sacramento. He

22:53

was like, it wasn't a great student, he was a decent student, but he was

22:55

a good football player. And his coach

22:57

told him he could have been recruited, but he was

22:59

failing a class. All he had to do was go

23:02

to this like two week makeup course, essentially, get a

23:04

B in that, lift his GPA to the right level.

23:06

And, and he had a chance to get a football scholarship

23:09

and he just didn't go. I think he went for

23:12

two or three days. And then he decided to just

23:14

come hang out with me and my friends and screw

23:16

around and completely neglect that makeup class. I told this

23:18

story to someone who I was in my PhD program

23:20

with. And he basically said

23:22

like, if that's who he was and that's what

23:24

he wanted to do. Maybe that

23:27

was okay. Like if he wasn't the kind of person who

23:29

wanted to go to class, like it's maybe it's not right

23:31

to like force him to do that, right? Cause he didn't

23:33

feel motivated. So it's okay to just let him do whatever

23:35

he wants. And so I asked

23:37

her, what would you do if that was your son?

23:39

You have some wayward teenage son who, you know,

23:42

all he has to do is go to class

23:44

for two weeks, get a decent grade. And he

23:46

could go on to play football for college versus

23:48

drop being a sort of a high school grad

23:50

working minimum wage, which is where my friend ended

23:52

up. And she

23:54

thought about it for a second. And she was

23:56

like, if that was my son, I would force

23:58

him to go to class every day. and threatened to kill him if he didn't.

24:02

And I was like, that's the right

24:04

answer for, but not just for yourself, that's

24:06

the right answer for everyone. But in her mind, it's

24:09

okay if, you know, my friend and me and guys

24:11

that I grew up with, it's okay for us to

24:14

squander our futures because we didn't feel motivated

24:16

to do something, but it's definitely not okay

24:18

for people that she cares about or for

24:20

her children or for, so

24:22

it's the sort of double standard that

24:24

they accept excuses and create excuses for other

24:26

people that they would never accept for themselves

24:29

or for their loved ones. Why

24:31

do you think that is? I wanna say,

24:33

I think it's just maybe a

24:35

misplaced sense of compassion or

24:38

wanting to feel tolerant or they

24:40

don't, I think they feel

24:42

maybe uncomfortable with the idea of

24:45

promoting certain values

24:47

that reliably lead to success because it's

24:49

unpleasant in the moment, right? Like short

24:52

term, it's painful, it's unpleasant, it

24:54

makes you feel maybe a little bit like a jerk to

24:56

say, like, actually, if you wanna be successful, you have to

24:58

like go to class and work and study hard and not

25:00

screw around, and to take that football

25:02

coach or that military instructor attitude, you feel a

25:04

little bit like a jerk for saying, like you

25:06

can't just screw around, you have to get things

25:09

done, versus like, oh, being

25:11

like the parent of like a little baby,

25:13

like, oh, it's okay, that's what you want,

25:15

it's fine, and it's, one

25:17

of those feels really nice in the short term,

25:19

but can be catastrophic in the long term, whereas

25:22

the taking that sort of football coach mentality is

25:24

the opposite, where in the short term, it's painful

25:26

and unpleasant, but long term, it's actually the right

25:28

call for future success. Think about the

25:30

people in your life that you, like,

25:33

I'll do all the play for me and then I'll

25:35

ask you, but like the ones I love and respect

25:37

and admire the most from throughout

25:39

my life, that some of

25:41

them I actually hated them in the moment. This

25:43

can actually be a parent at times, definitely

25:45

football coaches, where I hated them in

25:48

certain moments, and now I

25:50

literally love them with all my

25:53

being, and like because they saw

25:55

something more and were willing to do

25:57

the uncomfortable thing, which was make me

25:59

feel better. mad at them by pushing because they said,

26:01

you've got more, you've got more and I'm going

26:04

to get every ounce out of it

26:06

because you alone are not going to do it

26:08

without this push. And now I

26:10

don't get a college scholarship without those guys. No

26:12

chance, no way. But because of them, I play

26:14

to a level that then gets the, attracts

26:16

those college coaches and here we go.

26:18

We're not paying for college. We're going

26:20

to play football. And that's 100%

26:22

because of those guys and my teammates. But like, but

26:25

we have a chance now, you rob me,

26:27

like we have a chance of leaders listening

26:29

to be that for other people, but it's

26:32

not comfortable all the time. In

26:34

fact, a lot of times it's not comfortable to

26:36

be the people that are willing to help

26:38

people do more or push for more than

26:40

they think they're capable of. And I'm curious

26:42

what you think of that. Yeah,

26:45

I think that's right. That you have to

26:47

accept that sort of cost in the short

26:49

term. If you're put in a position of

26:52

influence or responsibility for other people,

26:54

especially junior people or people who

26:57

aren't as fortunate as you or don't have like, we

26:59

have the same power influences you that you have to

27:02

take responsibility. And

27:04

part of that entails being the

27:06

bad guy, quote, bad guy for a little while,

27:08

be willing to accept

27:11

that people are going to hate you in the moment,

27:13

even if in the longer term, they will

27:15

thank you or be grateful for you for

27:18

doing that. And I think fewer and

27:20

fewer people seem to be willing to accept

27:23

that costs like that people would just rather

27:25

be liked all the time rather than respected

27:27

in the longer term is just no one

27:29

wants to, no one wants to

27:31

be in that position anymore. And it's,

27:34

I think it's hard to do that. But

27:36

yeah, one of the points that I try to make in the

27:39

book and through conversations like this is that, yeah, so you have

27:41

to do those things. I find it myself, honestly, when I talk

27:43

to younger guys or younger people or people who ask me for

27:45

advice or people who ask me what to do, I

27:47

find it difficult to do those things to basically be

27:50

very blunt or be very truthful or tell them what

27:52

they need to do or tell them where they're, where

27:55

they're blundering. But I understand

27:57

you just remind myself in the long term, this is

27:59

going to be helpful even if in the moment they're

28:01

like screw you like how dare you criticize my actions

28:03

or whatever it's just you got to do it. I

28:07

read page 256 you wrote that whenever

28:09

you feel or felt like an outsider

28:12

you sought refuge in helping others and because

28:14

of this you volunteered at New Haven Reads

28:17

when you're at Yale and while

28:19

there I believe you met a kid named Guillermo

28:21

and I'm curious what you

28:25

learned from your time helping Guillermo learn

28:27

to read. So yeah it

28:29

was him there were a few other kids I tell

28:31

that story just as a way to illustrate what the

28:33

experience was like there of tutoring these

28:35

kids from low-income families in New Haven

28:38

which is so Yale is housed within

28:40

New Haven it's located there. It's

28:43

a weird situation because you have this very

28:45

rich university but then it's located within like

28:47

a very sort of blue collar run

28:50

down area in New Haven itself

28:53

and yeah I volunteered at New Haven Reads

28:55

tutoring these kids and one

28:57

thing that stood out to me right away

28:59

was that most of these kids had very

29:01

similar backgrounds to what I had I

29:04

could have easily been like one of the kids there seeking

29:06

assistance or seeking tutoring. I mean

29:09

he opened up to you more

29:11

and was more into it once

29:14

you shared a little bit of your story and

29:17

to me from a leadership perspective because I that's

29:19

always like my slant I think Rob it

29:22

illustrates the importance

29:24

of a person who's trying to help somebody or lead

29:26

somebody else which you were doing you're trying to help

29:28

them you're leading right of taking

29:31

the time to connect with them taking

29:33

the time to relate to him taking

29:35

the time to be vulnerable with him

29:38

which you were you shared and

29:40

then all of a sudden he's like oh

29:42

he saw him at least how I read

29:44

it he saw himself in you

29:47

and all of a sudden this kid who doesn't want to read

29:50

is meeting with a guy from Yale who you may

29:52

make assumptions all these Yale guys these rich guys or

29:54

whatever which he may I don't know and

29:57

says like wait this guy is like me. It's

30:00

like when Steph Curry made it like these shorter

30:02

guys think I could make it in the NBA

30:04

or something the little guys skinny guys And I

30:07

and that to me is super powerful from a

30:09

leadership perspective to show how

30:11

important it is to work hard to connect to

30:13

our people that we're going to lead to be

30:15

vulnerable to be willing to share and Then

30:18

that's almost the immediate flip of a

30:21

switch of how he got into reading

30:23

much more Than he was prior

30:25

when you guys were just like alright. We're gonna read this

30:27

book. Yeah, I was yeah, I

30:29

remember Yeah, that second or third session When

30:32

you know, I didn't just start describing my life

30:34

to these kids But if they told me something

30:37

about their life and I felt

30:39

that it was relevant or the timing was right I would bring

30:41

up something like that too And so he would tell me that

30:43

he never met his dad or how his mom was always busy

30:45

those kinds of things And so I would tell him a little

30:47

bit about my life too that I never knew my dad and

30:49

I also had difficulty with Reading

30:52

and that it's there's nothing there. You shouldn't be embarrassed

30:54

by it It's fine like this is it's

30:57

nothing to worry about because you're here now and you're trying

30:59

to learn to read and that's what's important Not the fact

31:01

that you're having difficulty with it It's like having setbacks

31:03

is perfectly fine But are you trying to overcome

31:05

them? And so I would try to explain this

31:07

to them and once they learned a little bit about me or the

31:09

way that I explain things a lot of them would connect with me

31:11

and And it was always gratifying to connect

31:13

with kids in that way because a lot of these kids did

31:15

have especially difficult home lives some

31:17

of these kids now like they just didn't want

31:20

to read or their parents put them there but

31:22

they just There's there was nothing that

31:24

they had no interest in doing it And so I would

31:26

just sit with them and speak with them and not even

31:28

talk about reading or anything Just have to them on a

31:30

personal level and they did see the kids

31:32

go from that point to the point of okay Let's

31:34

learn how to read. Let's work on our spelling and

31:37

literacy Yeah, I mean that

31:39

always that was always it took me out of the The

31:42

chaos or the what the lunacy

31:44

of campus identity politics and what I was seeing at

31:46

Yale and to just like spend time with Those kids

31:49

and realize like what's going on at these colleges? That's

31:51

not the real world This is the real world here

31:53

is like what these kids are going through. What was

31:55

the fit like for you at Yale? I? Didn't

31:59

really For a

32:01

lot of reasons, right? What was just like my whatever,

32:04

like socioeconomically, there are more

32:07

students in Ivy League schools, there are

32:09

more students from the top 1% of

32:11

the income scale than from the entire

32:13

bottom And

32:16

I didn't really know, I had some inkling

32:18

of this. These are expensive, famous places. I

32:20

know that ordinarily they're quite expensive. I

32:22

had the GI Bill after the Air Force, which covered the

32:24

tuition, but I just didn't realize

32:26

quite the extent, the sort of the gap in terms

32:28

of like, there aren't even that many middle class people

32:30

at these places. Why do you want to go there?

32:32

I thought that they were like the best place to

32:35

go. I was like, there were a couple of reasons.

32:37

What? Like, I didn't know that much

32:39

about it, but like, I felt like if I was going to

32:41

college, I wanted to go to the best one possible. So

32:43

that was number one. And then the second thing

32:46

was that I didn't want to feel like I

32:48

was starting from square one. So

32:50

I was, by the time I was thinking about college, I was I think 24. And

32:54

I remember I had this conversation with a coworker

32:56

of mine. This was when I was like a brand

32:58

new recruit, asking him about the future and college and what

33:00

he wanted to do later. And he was like, I'm not

33:03

going to go to college, man. You're going to be

33:05

so far ahead of your peers. It's not

33:07

like really worth it. Like if you really want to

33:09

be like the old man on campus, that kind of

33:11

sounds like, oh, yeah, I guess not. And so then

33:13

later I thought, I'm going to go to college. At

33:15

least I wouldn't feel like I was completely starting from

33:17

square one. If I'm at like a really good school,

33:19

a lot of resources, at least that was my impression

33:21

of these places, that they're really rigorous education. And

33:24

so then, yeah, so socioeconomically, there was

33:26

that gap. But then also in terms

33:28

of our outlook on life, in terms

33:31

of what predicts success,

33:33

in terms of like family background,

33:35

I remember one class

33:37

that I was in, the professor administered

33:40

this anonymous poll to

33:42

there were about 20 students in this seminar.

33:45

And we and the question she asked us was,

33:47

were you raised by both of your birth parents?

33:51

And she anonymized the results and put them up on

33:53

this PowerPoint slide. And I

33:55

remember seeing like the number

33:57

of yeses versus nos. It was like one

33:59

huge. bar than one tiny bar. It was

34:01

like 18 out of the 20

34:03

students were raised by both of their birth parents. And so

34:05

I didn't know who the other person was, but it was

34:07

me and one other person who answered no to that question.

34:09

And I was just floored by

34:11

this and like 90%, like basically

34:13

the vast majority. And then like once

34:15

I started talking to students and realizing

34:18

like, Oh, that's the norm here is

34:20

like two parent family parents who put

34:22

an emphasis on education and ensuring that

34:24

their kids were basically focused and on

34:26

a good academic track versus where

34:28

I grew up, which was me. Like I

34:30

had five close friends growing up. None of us were raised

34:32

by both of our birth parents. That

34:34

was me raised in foster homes. I had friends raised

34:36

by single moms, one raised by a single dad, friends

34:39

raised by a grandmother or aunt because their

34:41

parents were either in prison or addicted to

34:43

drugs. That was the norm where I grew

34:45

up. And so realizing not

34:48

only was there this economic difference,

34:50

this financial difference, but also the

34:52

sort of the social difference, that

34:54

sort of family difference between me and these

34:56

other kids too. That was that was

34:58

actually more, more surprising because expected a lot of these,

35:00

Oh, they came from rich families. Fine. But the fact

35:03

that they also came from a completely different kind of

35:05

social world in terms of them

35:07

and everyone they ever knew that they

35:09

were raised by a basically like a

35:11

mother and a father divorce was extremely

35:13

rare. Single parenthood was practically non-existent. Even

35:16

so there were in my cohort, there were seven

35:20

other enlisted military vets with

35:22

me that entered Yale

35:24

around the same year. And even

35:27

when I spoke with them, all of them were raised

35:29

by both of their birth parents, which even that is

35:31

was a little surprising because you would think, Oh, the

35:33

military kind of recruits for maybe lower middle class, more

35:35

blue collar backgrounds, or maybe the family

35:38

situation is a little different than the typical Yale

35:40

student. But even they, and so basically

35:42

like this planted the idea in my mind

35:44

that probably if you

35:46

want to get into a school like this, it's no

35:48

act. It's no coincidence that they came

35:51

from families that were intact that would basically

35:53

prioritize their kids futures in a very different,

35:55

it was just a very different environment than

35:57

the one that I came from. best

36:00

and worst things about these Ivy

36:03

Leagues, Harvards in the News, Pens in the News,

36:05

they're in the news right now. I like my

36:07

show to be evergreen, but this is happening as

36:09

we speak. So what would you say are

36:11

the best things about them and the worst things about them? I've

36:14

never been asked that, but let's see. I

36:16

focus a lot on the bad stuff, but

36:18

okay, good thing. Okay, so one thing that

36:21

I write about in the book that I

36:23

did have a lot of respect for the

36:25

student's work ethic, it very much

36:27

is. You do have to meet minimal thresholds for

36:29

test scores and grades and so on. And it

36:31

is true too that if your family's rich enough

36:33

and they donate a building or something, that often

36:35

you can just get in that way. But by

36:38

and large, I would say most of

36:40

the students were also very hardworking. They

36:42

were academically focused. The courses, at least

36:44

the courses that weren't infected with identity

36:46

politics, just the sort of standard science

36:48

courses or courses where the professors just

36:51

didn't have any interest

36:53

in the day-to-day political

36:55

nonsense, those courses were actually

36:57

usually very difficult. And so the students were good at

36:59

being focused of good study habits, all of those things.

37:01

And I picked up a lot of good

37:04

skill sets and academic habits from them because

37:06

I liked them. I was a bad student

37:08

in high school. I had been in the

37:10

Air Force for eight years. I just was

37:12

completely rusty in terms of my skill

37:15

set there. And so I learned a lot from these

37:17

students. It is a

37:20

place where you can carve out. Like if

37:22

you're a curious person, you have weird niche

37:24

academic interests, but you can pursue

37:27

them. You can find professors. Usually

37:29

they're pretty responsive, those kinds

37:31

of things. So there's a lot of good to

37:33

be said about these places, even

37:35

despite the headline news and stuff,

37:38

but you have to seek it out now. I

37:41

think it used to be the norm that

37:43

yes, you could study things without it being

37:45

tainted by any kind of bias and people

37:47

would indulge. You could indulge your curiosities without

37:49

having to walk on eggshells to not

37:51

offend people or worry about the taboos of the

37:54

day. I think as recently as maybe

37:56

15 years ago, that was true. You

37:58

can still find it, but now you have to make an effort. effort to

38:00

do that, to find the right social circles to

38:02

do that and the right professors. The

38:06

worst things, I think a lot of people would

38:08

be familiar with the worst things, which is self-censorship

38:10

is at an all-time high. Professors

38:12

are being fired left and right for expressing the wrong

38:14

view, or if not fired, they're

38:16

just being strongly pressured to resign, or the environment

38:19

is so uncomfortable for them that they just leave

38:21

because why would you want to work somewhere where

38:23

everywhere you go people are calling you this, that,

38:25

and the other because something you

38:28

wrote or something you said, the students

38:30

are also very, they're organized, a lot of

38:33

them, they're activists on campus that are waiting

38:35

to take other students out or to

38:37

destroy their reputations for

38:39

political reasons too. And then we saw

38:41

this with the Harvard Penn and MIT

38:44

testimonial where the professors of these universities

38:46

were more or less condoning

38:48

anti-Semitism because of that sort of oppressor

38:51

oppressive, yeah, oppressor oppressed

38:54

sort of duality that pervades these universities of

38:56

okay, if you're a member of this privileged

38:58

category, then we can say whatever we want

39:00

about you, even up to

39:02

and including anti-Semitic remarks, whereas if

39:04

you're a member of this category, so there's this double standard of

39:06

what you're allowed to say based on your sociological

39:09

identity category. So

39:11

there's a lot of, there are a lot of issues in

39:13

higher ed, and that's one of the reasons why I decided

39:15

not to pursue a traditional academic career. How

39:17

did that happen and why is that going on? How

39:22

did it happen? How did it happen? I

39:25

think a lot of it is due to cowardice.

39:27

A lot of the professors and

39:30

a lot of this, yeah, I think some

39:32

of it is due to cowardice. The professors

39:34

don't want to push back. A lot of

39:36

them are just, they tend to be nerds

39:38

who just want to keep their head down,

39:40

do their research, do their work, write their

39:42

papers, and they don't want to have pieces

39:44

of their time taken because they said the

39:47

wrong thing or someone accused them of something

39:49

and now they have to redirect their attention

39:51

to do conflict management, reputation management. And

39:53

so they just withdraw into themselves, withdraw into their lab

39:55

or their research center, and they don't

39:57

say anything in public. They see one of their colleagues being

39:59

attacked. And the right thing to do would

40:01

be to say, hey, like I support academic freedom. That

40:04

person should not be fired or should not be vilified

40:06

for what they said. But then they know that if

40:08

they say that, then the attention will turn on them.

40:11

And so they just stay silent. And so you scale that

40:13

up. And eventually everyone is just

40:15

very quiet, very careful. Another

40:18

phenomenon, yeah, another piece of this is that, and

40:20

this is a bit more controversial, but

40:22

there's really good work from Corey Clark,

40:24

who's a psychologist at Penn. And

40:27

what she has found, she and some of her colleagues,

40:30

basically they find that if you

40:32

compare the personalities and preferences of

40:35

male versus female academics, on

40:38

average, not always, but on average, female

40:40

academics are much more preoccupied

40:43

with and concerned with social justice, of emotional

40:45

safety, of ensuring that students don't feel unsafe

40:47

or harmed in any way, subjectively. If they

40:49

tell you they feel harmed, then therefore they

40:52

are harmed. And so we have to prevent

40:54

that. Whereas male academics tend to

40:56

be, if you give them a forced choice,

40:58

what's more important, emotional safety or academic rigor,

41:01

on average male academics tend to favor

41:03

rigor, whereas female academics tend to favor

41:05

emotional safety. And so over the last 30 or 40

41:07

years, women have overtaken

41:09

men in academia. So there are more women

41:11

on campus, there are more female students, there

41:13

are now more female professors, senior professors, it's

41:15

still majority male, but that's going to change

41:17

in the next 10 or 15 years as

41:20

the men age out. And now there are more

41:22

and more women PhDs. There are more women PhDs

41:24

than male PhDs now. So they're going to take

41:26

those professors' positions. And so I

41:28

think this kind of, some people have used

41:30

this term, the feminization of academia is also

41:32

playing a role here, where women on average

41:35

tend to have different priorities than men. And

41:37

this is also giving way to this

41:39

feelings-based social justice, identity politics,

41:41

movement that we're seeing on

41:43

campus. And so I think

41:46

both of those students play some role. As you were about

41:48

to graduate Yale, cool

41:57

story you write about, you're going out to dinner. with

42:00

your mom and your sister. And

42:03

I believe it was the New York Times. They called

42:06

you. You had written a piece and

42:08

he said this will make for a cool

42:10

story. Can you talk to me more about

42:12

that whole idea of writing? I'm going to

42:14

dig deeper on writing here in a second,

42:16

but writing that piece and that phone call

42:18

and the night, take us inside that time.

42:22

So I

42:24

had attended

42:27

this writing seminar at

42:29

Columbia while I was in college. It

42:31

was a one week writing seminar. Was that the

42:33

War Horse writing seminar? Is that what it's called?

42:35

Yeah, it's called the War Horse. I don't know

42:38

if it still exists, but this was

42:40

2017 that I attended. Really

42:43

useful program where essentially they invited

42:46

veterans who were either

42:48

students or recent graduates onto

42:51

the Columbia campus and they had writing

42:53

instructors and guest speakers and so on,

42:55

basically inviting them to learn

42:57

how to structure their experiences in

42:59

a written format, essays and sort

43:03

of personal reflections and basically

43:05

publishing their skills and to communicate

43:07

their experiences. And

43:10

so while I was there, I worked on some

43:12

essays and improved my writing skills. And

43:16

one of the guest speakers was this guy, Jim

43:18

Dow, who was then the Op-Ed editor at the

43:20

New York Times. He and I

43:22

spoke for a while. He gave me his email. I

43:24

sent him an essay and then they took

43:26

it and then they just like, they ghosted me. They

43:28

were like, oh yeah, we like this essay. And

43:31

then I didn't hear back from them. Literally for,

43:33

I want to say for over a year, it

43:35

was radio silence. I would follow up every so often because

43:38

they said yes and then they never said no after. So I'm

43:40

like, until they say no, I'm going to keep following

43:42

up on this. And so

43:44

then like a little over a year later, the day I graduated

43:47

from Yale, I got this phone call. Yeah,

43:49

I'm with my family. I'm in this restaurant.

43:51

It was our like graduation celebration dinner. And

43:54

I Noticed a bunch of missed calls on my phone.

43:56

I Finally pick up and yeah, one of the editors

43:58

at the New York Times. right? Hey so

44:01

we ran the online version today

44:03

the preparations going out tomorrow and

44:05

ask me couple of clarify of

44:07

questions and. Then. And

44:09

area of it and congratulated me. And there was

44:11

this really surreal kind of is. What?

44:14

Like capstone to that day of white white

44:16

person my family graduate from college and on

44:18

the same day they ran this are bad

44:20

and and up the at him and proceeding

44:23

lot of attention and indirectly like said said

44:25

to me writing this book but while I

44:27

was speaking to her Aaron the editor and.

44:30

Was. Run outside the restaurants looking

44:32

at. The campus.

44:34

Was. Behind me of my family to the

44:36

window pane and it was the first. I

44:38

was happy but then it turned into this

44:41

ambivalence of whites. The only reason why. This.

44:44

As As A was noteworthy enough to

44:46

get his editors attention was because like

44:49

I didn't have that many family dinners

44:51

like this growing up because of how.

44:54

How much I liked bad when I was

44:56

a kid and how just disorderly my upbringing

44:58

was and how I tried to communicate experiences

45:00

I hadn't that are bad and why they

45:02

sounded mean Fall and. When. I'm looking

45:05

back at Yale thinking why am I doing all

45:07

this like what I wanted I write this op

45:09

ed: why am I going to college? Why am

45:11

I like leaving the country A damn. I'm going

45:13

back across overseas to continue to get a Phd

45:15

and. I. Basically came to this

45:17

conclusion that. You know,

45:20

I spent so much of mine. Early

45:22

lies and especially my teenage years and early

45:24

twenties trying to become like one hundred percent

45:27

self sufficient. I did want to have to

45:29

rely on anyone. I didn't want to have

45:31

to ask anyone for anything that any anything

45:33

that I did it was on my own

45:36

end. It was this. Coping

45:38

response to a that I grew up at. Any time

45:40

I did trust someone. only time I did reliance on

45:42

one. Inevitably there was some kind of disappointed that would

45:44

follow and so I decided to on the press my

45:47

can rely on as myself. And.

45:49

I realized then that the this was

45:51

maybe it was useful during that period

45:54

that mindset. But then. When.

45:56

i really should be doing now at that point when

45:58

i had that realization i was twenty years goal that

46:00

I should be trying to shape myself into someone who

46:02

could be relied upon to be the

46:04

kind of person that I lacked when I was a

46:06

kid, someone who other people could go to and know

46:08

that I wouldn't disappoint them, know that they could count

46:10

on me. And

46:12

essentially to be able

46:14

to take care of the family that couldn't take

46:16

care of me to be a better father than

46:18

my father's were to me. And

46:22

that was what the success was for. That's

46:24

what I'm trying to accomplish. And

46:28

all of that sort of came together

46:30

in that one moment in that call.

46:32

Because I realized that I would have

46:34

traded everything. I would have traded Yale and

46:36

Cambridge and Writing Near Times and this book. I would

46:38

trade all of it, like all of the experiences that

46:40

I've had as an adult to basically have

46:42

never been in foster homes, to have never had that kind

46:44

of life in the first place, to have if I

46:47

had like an ordinary childhood, what a

46:49

conventional family, not so much

46:51

sort of chaos and disrepair and uncertainty, and

46:54

then just gone on to have like a normal life after

46:56

that. And I would prefer that.

46:58

I'm trying to create meaning from those experiences

47:00

through what I'm doing now. But

47:03

ultimately the trade-off isn't worth it. I think most foster

47:05

kids, even if you told them, hey, someday you're going

47:07

to go to a fancy college and have a career

47:10

and all this, that and the other, I think

47:12

a lot of them would actually just rather have a, they'd

47:14

rather have two parents, they'd rather have a family, they'd rather

47:17

have some emotional safety and those kinds of things.

47:20

The perspective, man, from reading this part

47:22

about external achievement, you wrote, upon obtaining

47:24

a few totems of achievement,

47:27

I came to realize that they

47:29

are flawed measures of success. External

47:32

accomplishments are trivial compared

47:35

with a warm and

47:37

loving family. Going to

47:39

school is far less important than having a

47:41

parent who cares enough to make sure you

47:43

get to class every day. Like, dude,

47:47

It just perspective shift for somebody

47:49

who takes this stuff for granted,

47:51

which is me. Then

48:00

to be able to weave in and put

48:02

yourself you wrote it from. The. Perspective

48:04

of being at the age of each plan

48:06

on how you did that it may be.

48:08

Took me to the time when you're a

48:11

little kid and then you're in high school

48:13

and you're in the military and and ceo

48:15

these fancy colleges. I'm just blown away by

48:17

the imagery and how vivid you were able

48:19

to go back in time and then share.

48:21

and such a compelling way. It's extremely well

48:23

done. Thank. You I remember right

48:26

after I signed the book deal and agree

48:28

to do this project. I had no idea

48:30

how difficult it was gonna be If I

48:32

had known how hard it would be to

48:34

do this to write this book. Know that

48:36

would have done it Really, they are in

48:38

a way I'm almost got. I didn't know

48:40

how would it means if I violate the

48:42

writing books hard in itself, but you mean

48:45

that conjuring up the memories, the structures i

48:47

each chapter, I wanted to be relatively self

48:49

contained but also be part of an overarching

48:51

story to like I get conjuring up. Ah,

48:53

the memories, making sure they were accurate. To

48:55

the best of my ability talking to my friends,

48:57

of my sister, my family and saying the a

48:59

member this or what do you remember from that

49:02

time and it was just like a lot of

49:04

research and thinking and reflecting and try to put

49:06

it all together but then also the. The.

49:08

Emotional energy was unexpected right? So I wrote this

49:10

book at the same time as writing my phd

49:13

thesis which is also essentially it's like it's a

49:15

book, but it's academic writing which comes much easier

49:17

to me. It's very intellectual, it's very talkative, It's

49:19

different part of the brain that you're using when

49:22

you're communicating information and academic research and writing about

49:24

kind of thing I wasn't into the pick of

49:26

had been personal stuff before. With that off at

49:28

I've written sort of short articles and essays about

49:31

my life. But. he's

49:33

a very short pieces right vs eighty thousand

49:35

words trying to cover it all i didn't

49:37

anticipate how exhausting it would be i was

49:39

taking naps in the middle the day i

49:41

never take naps on not a guides for

49:43

when i was riding the first of the

49:45

first half of the book those early memories

49:47

of like really trying to dig deep and

49:49

try to recall experiences but then on my

49:51

emotional reactions to them and reliving it was

49:53

like with just like exhausts i'd write for

49:55

two hours and said my just pass out

49:57

of my desk for little while and combat

49:59

and And so at that part it was

50:01

just completely unexpected. But then that was what

50:04

I wanted to do was to recapture those

50:06

memories and that moment I talked to an

50:08

author. I was trying to find

50:11

a way to approach this book and

50:13

the right way to communicate those experiences

50:15

but initially it just

50:17

wasn't happening for me. Something wasn't clicking and

50:19

then one author told me the question

50:22

with memoir isn't who am I but who am

50:24

I in this story. And

50:26

for whatever reason that unlocked something in me and I

50:28

realized like oh like who am I in this story

50:31

who am I in this chapter. Oh I'm seven years

50:33

old in a foster home and that's

50:35

the story I need to tell not 30 year

50:37

old Rob retrospectively looking back and oh when I

50:39

was seven XYZ happened no it needs to be

50:41

immersive. It needs to be what do you remember

50:43

from that time and what was like a day

50:45

in the life in a foster home really like

50:47

for a kid in that environment and fortunately my

50:49

memory of that period is actually pretty good and

50:52

pretty vivid and I only told the most vivid

50:54

memories anyway. I had an anecdote

50:56

pinging together. Not only have you written that

50:58

but you're a sub stack writer, you

51:00

write it on Twitter, X, all a

51:02

lot of stuff. You write other articles. I

51:05

have a full page of notes just

51:08

on one of your essays that

51:10

maybe we'll have around to the lessons I learned the

51:12

hard way like we're not going to get to any

51:14

of them today but we've touched on some of them

51:16

but there's that alone is worth the podcast the lessons

51:18

I learned the hard way essay that you wrote. I

51:21

share this to say I think leaders need to be writers.

51:23

I think all leaders if you want to lead you have

51:25

to be a very clear thinker if you want to be

51:27

a good leader at least and I

51:29

think one of the greatest ways to clarify your thinking

51:31

is to get the words out of your head onto

51:33

the page regularly and even better

51:35

if you can publish them. How

51:38

has writing helped

51:40

you clarify your thoughts?

51:44

It helps a lot. It's one

51:46

thing to have an idea

51:48

in your mind just somehow when we have thoughts they

51:50

all make sense when it's just like living up here.

51:52

You know, of course that opinion or that view or

51:54

that sort of chain of logic, oh it makes perfect

51:57

and then you try to get it doubted suddenly you're

51:59

like wait a minute. Like I made a leap there

52:01

or why do I think this or where did that

52:03

come from? And so

52:05

forcing yourself to write it down. So that's

52:07

like a second point in trying to truly

52:10

understand what you really think or try to inch closer toward

52:12

the truth is getting it down on paper. And

52:14

then the third step I think which is really helpful

52:16

is to like you said like to publish it put

52:18

it out there, get feedback from the world. What do

52:20

other people think people you respect other smart people let

52:23

them have a look at it and see

52:25

where they agree or disagree or because we're

52:28

all this is classic psychological research we're all

52:30

very sort of egocentric we all think we're right

52:32

about everything and it takes other people to see

52:34

our blind spots and maybe where we went wrong

52:37

and that's an ideal world that's how academic publishing

52:39

works is you have peer review you have people

52:41

who are in the same line of

52:44

research as you who read your paper too and so

52:46

before it gets published in an academic journal you have

52:48

other people give you feedback on it and that's been

52:50

helpful for me too is to when I write on

52:52

the substat or I write articles to I read the

52:54

comments I'll read the feedback or I'll send it to

52:56

my friends or other people and before I even publish

52:58

it I'll say does this look right to you or

53:00

like what am I missing here or I'd be

53:03

curious just give me your thoughts give me your gut

53:05

reaction to what you get from this so writing

53:07

has been really helpful and it's something I've when

53:09

I was younger I would get engaged in it

53:11

on and off I would journal especially like my

53:14

early days in the military 17 18 19

53:16

years old I would just drop some notes

53:19

down or it was very haphazard and erratic where just one

53:21

day I would just start writing and then months would go

53:23

by and then I'd write something else or I'd go for

53:25

a stint stint of two or three weeks where I'd write

53:27

every day so it's something I've

53:29

always practiced but wasn't until

53:32

college and grad school that it became

53:34

more organized so I'm gonna

53:36

ask you a question I know you don't

53:38

like to give unsolicited advice so maybe you

53:40

take a lesson or two but let's

53:43

say you're meeting with somebody who is right

53:46

around the time of college graduation and they want

53:48

to do good in the world but they don't

53:50

know what they want to do outside of that

53:53

what are some general pieces of life

53:55

slash career advice or a life

53:57

lesson you would share with them. We're

54:00

thinking of like a conventional college grad age 22,

54:02

that typical path. Yeah,

54:05

I think I would recommend maybe not

54:07

going straight to work. I know people

54:09

say travel, but I wouldn't, when

54:11

a lot of students or recent

54:13

graduates travel, they like take that cookie cutter

54:15

path of like, I'm going to go stay

54:17

in an expensive Airbnb. Oh, I'm going to

54:19

Thailand, but you're not really going to Thailand.

54:21

You're going to go hang out with other

54:23

Americans or other Westerners and not really. I,

54:25

I, so I guess one option would be

54:27

be truly be that sort of fish out

54:29

of water, go somewhere where you're going

54:31

to have to learn a little bit of the language. You're actually

54:34

going to have to learn how to survive on your own for

54:36

a little bit and not whatever rely on

54:38

your smartphone for navigation and have your

54:40

little group of friends with you

54:42

who I think just finding ways to make

54:44

yourself a little uncomfortable. So some 22 year

54:46

old, some recent grad people ask me, should

54:49

I'm thinking about going to OCS? I'm thinking

54:51

about going to the military ROTC, something along

54:53

those lines. And usually I say, yes, I

54:56

tell them like, what are your goals? There are things

54:58

you need to think about, but just in terms of

55:00

personal development, just doing something that you don't really want

55:02

to do, but it's going to be hard and you're

55:04

going to be glad you did it later, that would

55:06

be something I would recommend. Doesn't have to be the

55:08

military. It doesn't have to be travel. Could be participants

55:10

that could be some MMA could be

55:12

Brazilian Ujitsu. It could be being a volunteer

55:14

firefighter. There are a million things

55:16

you could do, but just something hard, something

55:18

that will stretch you beyond what you think

55:20

you're capable of and

55:22

not go straight into some kind of

55:24

corporate office environment, do something else first.

55:27

This is a great part of your book. I'd like

55:30

to close with it and maybe get your thoughts as

55:32

well. A couple of your mom's friends came to you

55:34

for advice and they were talking

55:36

about their six year old son and

55:38

they were concerned with how smart he was.

55:40

And they asked you, saying all these things.

55:43

They eventually said, should we be reading to

55:45

him more? And you responded. Yeah,

55:48

but not because it will expand his vocabulary.

55:51

Read to him because it will remind him that

55:53

you love him. And I thought,

55:55

God, this guy's so good. What

55:57

a thoughtful way to do it. Like as a dad myself, I

55:59

was just. like, man, this is good. And maybe you

56:01

take me back to that time and just expand on

56:03

what you think about that. Yeah,

56:06

I think a lot of I ended with that

56:08

story because I wanted to just reiterate that, you

56:11

know, so many parents, they I think they

56:13

take this kind of instrumental approach to child

56:15

rearing of like, Oh, the ultimate goal is

56:17

to get this kid into a good college

56:19

or to be materially

56:21

successful, professionally successful. But

56:24

that's not what the kid is worried about. Like the

56:26

kid isn't thinking about what college am I going to

56:28

go to? Or maybe later as a teenager, a little

56:30

kid, right? I'm talking like before puberty, especially just a

56:32

small kid. What are they thinking about?

56:34

They just want to be close with their parents. They just

56:36

want to feel loved. They want to feel nurtured. They want

56:38

to feel safe. And take the

56:40

kids perspective. Why are you reading to them? It's to

56:43

be close to them. It's to make them feel attached

56:45

and bonded and all of those things. Because when

56:47

they asked me that question, should we be reading

56:50

to our kid more? The first thing that came

56:52

to mind was, you know, when I

56:54

was learning to read in the foster homes, I

56:56

just felt lonely. I felt like sad. I felt

56:58

isolated. And I would

57:01

sometimes want someone to read to me, but

57:03

it wasn't because of some far flung future

57:05

ideal of getting into college or something. It

57:07

was just because I wanted to feel secure

57:10

or attached to someone. So I feel like

57:12

someone cared about me,

57:15

which really didn't have that when I was in a foster home. So

57:18

I think that's something that more parents should realize. It's

57:20

not just a foster care thing. I had a conversation

57:22

with a friend recently. He did

57:24

go to college. He did have a he's a successful

57:26

person today. But one thing he got when he read

57:28

my book was that he was like, my parents were

57:30

like, just like very hard on me and my brother.

57:32

They wanted us to go to college. Like basically every

57:34

decision they ever made around us and they would just

57:36

speak openly about it. That's not going to get you

57:38

into college. So you're not doing that. Or you need

57:40

to do this because it's going to look good on

57:43

your transcript or your record or your whatever. And they

57:46

felt this from their parents that they weren't kids

57:48

to their parents. They were just like these little units

57:51

of future success or something. And

57:54

To this day, he still feels like he's happy with

57:56

his parents in the one sense because they did make

57:58

good decisions to get them. The into the position

58:00

there today but they also feel this kind of

58:03

irritation and this lingering sense of resentment of like

58:05

I just wanted a mom and dad. I didn't

58:07

want these two people who were just trying to

58:09

coach my way through and I think parents sort

58:12

of mistake what their ultimate goal should be. It's

58:14

is not just getting them to the best college

58:16

or whatever as part of a cab and also

58:18

to in the moment the kid feel like they're

58:21

part of the family matter. Loved. So

58:24

go. The book is called Troubled a

58:26

memoir of family, foster care and social

58:28

class. I cannot recommend it enough and

58:30

will knock you on your back as

58:32

emotional you're probably cry but there he

58:34

also be inspired and you're in the

58:36

middle living the stories like he wrote

58:38

this when you got old, you wrote

58:40

this when you're young. I think it'll

58:42

be a movie. I love it man

58:44

and I'm a very priests have you

58:46

for writing it and for being here

58:48

today. I would love to continue our

58:50

dialogue as we both for harassment. Yeah

58:52

I was about. Figuring Thanks man!

58:57

It is the end of the Podcast

59:00

Club. Thank you for being a member

59:02

of the End of the Podcast Club.

59:04

If you are some you know Ryan

59:06

at Learning leader.com let me know what

59:08

you learned from this incredible conversation with

59:10

Rob Henderson. What a story! I absolutely

59:13

believe that his book will be Ops

59:15

and and one day turned into a

59:17

movie. It's incredible Up you take away

59:19

from my notes. Self discipline beats motivation.

59:21

Often people say they need to feel

59:23

motivated to perform a task motivates in

59:26

those Just a feeling. Self Discipline

59:28

is A I'm going to do this

59:30

regardless of how I feel and I

59:33

think this is a skill. Yes, a

59:35

skill that we learned through doing hard

59:37

things. And for me it was helpful

59:39

to have coaches and still this and

59:42

Meats and Rob learned this early in

59:44

life as well as when he was

59:46

in the Airforce and then. His.

59:49

Life/career Advice: Be a fish

59:52

out of water, do something

59:54

hard, be uncomfortable. He.

59:56

gave advice for a twenty two year old

59:58

recent graduate but i think we all would

1:00:00

agree that that is useful advice

1:00:02

for all of us. Be a fish out

1:00:04

of water, do something hard, be uncomfortable.

1:00:07

And then 35% of people in

1:00:09

America graduate with a bachelor's degree,

1:00:11

11% of people from poor families

1:00:13

graduate from college, and just 3%

1:00:15

of foster kids graduate

1:00:18

from college. When you think about Rob's story,

1:00:21

it's hard not to be inspired. He's

1:00:23

beaten almost impossible odds to not only

1:00:26

graduate from college, but he served our

1:00:28

country, then went to Yale, graduated, and

1:00:30

got his PhD from Cambridge. It's just

1:00:33

awesome to see what he's done. And

1:00:35

he's still so young and at the

1:00:37

beginning of his career. I love it

1:00:40

when good things happen to good

1:00:42

people. Once again, I would say

1:00:44

thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and

1:00:47

telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this

1:00:49

episode of The Learning Leader Show with Rob Henderson. I think

1:00:51

it will help you gain perspective

1:00:53

and become a more effective leader. And

1:00:55

because you continue to do that and

1:00:58

you continue to go to Spotify or

1:01:00

Apple Podcast and subscribe and rate the

1:01:02

show five stars and write a thoughtful

1:01:05

review, doing that spreads

1:01:07

the message. And also telling

1:01:09

friends spreads the message. And that's how

1:01:11

this show has grown over the past

1:01:13

nine years and will continue to grow. And

1:01:16

by doing that, I'm so,

1:01:18

so grateful and will forever be grateful.

1:01:20

Thank you so, so much. Talk to

1:01:22

you soon, can't wait. Thanks.