0:00

thank you all for coming today i'm

0:01

rachel sexford i'm the vp of marketing

0:03

here at learner publishing group um we

0:05

are very excited to discuss graphic

0:07

novels with our esteemed panelists

0:11

betsy byrd is the collection development

0:13

manager of the evanston public library

0:15

and the former youth materials

0:16

specialist at the new york public

0:17

library

0:18

she brought blogs frequently at the

0:20

school library journal site a few's

0:22

number eight production and reviews for

0:24

kirkus and the new york times on

0:25

occasion

0:26

betsy is the author of the picture books

0:28

giant dance party and the great santa

0:30

stakeout she is a co-author on the very

0:33

adult wild things acts of mischief in

0:35

children's literature

0:37

editor of the middle grade anthology of

0:38

funny female writers funny girl and

0:41

author of the middle grade novel long

0:42

road to the circus illustrated by

0:44

caldecott award-winning illustrator

0:45

david small

0:47

betsy hosts two podcasts story seeds

0:50

which pairs kids and authors together to

0:51

write stories and the very funny fews 8

0:54

and kate where she and her sister debate

0:56

the relative merits of classic picture

0:57

books you can follow her on twitter at

1:00

fuse8

1:01

schwetta miller is the author of hacking

1:03

graphic novels eight ways to teach

1:05

higher level thinking with comics and

1:06

visual storytelling published by times

1:08

10 publications in 2021

1:11

she taught high school english language

1:12

arts in new york city public schools and

1:14

at a few colleges throughout asia where

1:16

she honed the process of teaching

1:18

students how to critically read and

1:19

craft texts of all kinds from tv sitcom

1:22

scripts to graphic narratives and

1:23

parodies of classic novels

1:25

now a teacher leader and literacy

1:27

specialist she presents nationally on

1:28

research-based instructional practices

1:30

and coaches teachers in their classrooms

1:32

and online

1:34

she advocates for teaching with comics

1:35

and graphic novels through position as

1:37

director of curriculum for reading with

1:38

pictures the incoming vice president of

1:40

the oregon state literacy association a

1:43

board member for the portland reading

1:44

council and through participation at

1:46

conferences and comics festivals reach

1:48

out to her on svedenmiller.com to

1:50

connect and find her on twitter as at

1:52

schwetta miller

1:54

susannah richards is the associate

1:56

professor at eastern state eastern

1:58

connecticut state university where she

2:00

teaches courses on literacy and

2:01

literature for youth she's also a

2:03

literacy and literature consultant who

2:04

works with authors illustrators

2:06

publishers teachers and librarians and

2:08

has presented at hundreds of

2:09

international national state local and

2:11

district conferences

2:13

she has been an advocate an advocate for

2:15

all kinds of children and young adult

2:17

literature for more than 30 years

2:18

coordinating events moderating panels

2:20

writing teacher guides and connecting

2:22

teachers librarians parents and young

2:24

people with books whenever possible

2:26

follow her on twitter and instagram at

2:28

sussingoutbooks

2:30

ted anderson is a librarian educator and

2:32

comics writer from minnesota his book

2:34

the spy who raised me illustrated by

2:36

gianna miola was published by learner

2:38

publishing group's graphic universe

2:40

imprint in 2021 where it was a minnesota

2:42

book award finalist

2:43

he has written licensed and

2:44

creator-owned comics for multiple

2:46

publishers including boom studios idw

2:48

publishing and aftershock comics he

2:51

lives in minneapolis with several plants

2:52

and zero regrets and to the best of his

2:54

knowledge he is not an internationally

2:56

renowned spy

2:58

and our moderator greg hunter is the

3:00

editorial director of learner publishing

3:01

group's graphic universe imprint

3:03

and the acquiring editor of multiple

3:05

eisner-nominated or star-reviewed

3:07

graphic novels he is based in

3:09

minneapolis minnesota

3:10

and with that i will hand things over to

3:12

greg

3:14

all right thank you uh panelists and uh

3:16

viewers both for joining us

3:18

uh let's start today with a question

3:20

that we could probably spend all hour

3:23

talking about and might uh what is

3:26

driving the popularity of graphic novels

3:29

today

3:38

oh my god uh there's so many different

3:41

things the first place is it's part of

3:43

the way the brain works we are wired for

3:45

visual images and we know that

3:48

cognitively and otherwise we've always

3:49

been wired for visual images so

3:52

there's so much to enjoy about graphic

3:54

models in terms of visual images it's

3:56

also where stimulus driven society as

4:00

the world has gotten smaller and both um

4:03

wider in terms of the internet and other

4:05

things we're just constantly looking at

4:08

and evaluating the visual stimulus that

4:11

we have so the combination of text

4:13

captions framing and visuals is just an

4:17

explosive way to gather information and

4:20

since graphic novels are a format not a

4:23

genre as we all agree

4:25

then there is just an enormous infinite

4:28

amount of possibility with the graphic

4:29

novel and so i started and i'm done

4:32

oh it's good and i'll just pick that up

4:34

and say it's always been the case we've

4:36

always loved comics i mean there's never

4:38

been a point where we haven't if the

4:39

difference now is that a uh more people

4:42

who are in charge aren't poo pooing them

4:44

and writing books about how they're

4:46

subverting the youth and turning them

4:47

into juvenile delinquents and uh and

4:50

then second there's more of them the

4:51

publishers are actually finally

4:54

beginning i'm just gonna say beginning

4:56

to meet the need um whereas ten years

4:59

ago when i had a kids book club at near

5:01

public library a girl would come in

5:03

every week so the book will be like

5:05

where are all the new comics this week

5:07

and i'll be like oh honey

5:08

no no no so

5:10

yeah it's always been the case

5:13

it's also i mean they are starting to

5:15

receive enough critical attention it's

5:17

pretty cool in the academic sense and a

5:19

recognition of the fact that yes you can

5:21

tell engaging narratives yes you can

5:23

engage students yes you can create forms

5:25

or um forums for critical thinking you

5:27

can you can engage the reader in all the

5:29

same ways that you teach all these other

5:31

lessons with comics just as you can with

5:34

with prose um and in different ways and

5:37

of course there are different tools that

5:38

have to be applied to analyzing

5:39

different media and so forth but

5:41

the the fact that there is enough

5:43

recognition that like oh yeah you can do

5:45

this and it can still be a very serious

5:47

worthy you know and gigantic bleeding

5:49

air quotes they can be still a very you

5:51

know worthy area of study is is also

5:53

partly driving that is this recognition

5:54

oh yeah comics can be smart now

5:57

um yeah

5:59

yeah and connected to that also with it

6:02

the explosion happening in schools is

6:04

part of that difference like betsy's

6:06

saying you know it we've always enjoyed

6:09

comic comics and visual

6:11

storytelling um but part of the

6:13

difference is that it's being brought

6:15

into these other spheres like education

6:18

and i think part of that is it sort of

6:20

corresponded with this increase in

6:23

narratives about our students not being

6:25

readers about american students

6:28

having these deficits in reading skills

6:31

um and just more of this deficit mindset

6:34

about things like this word gap that may

6:36

or may not exist and um

6:39

and and then that coupling with

6:42

teachers actually seeing and librarians

6:44

in schools actually seeing their kids

6:46

piled up in front of the library aisle

6:50

section with the comics and the graphic

6:52

novels that the library media

6:55

specialists at the district where i work

6:56

with cannot keep up with the requests

6:58

for manga series that the manga in our

7:01

school district is

7:03

the one format that is consistently

7:06

always checked out the longest wait

7:08

lists and teachers seeing that in their

7:11

independent reading corner students are

7:13

passing around the same torn up

7:15

scholastic copies of

7:18

rayna telgemeier's books with the pages

7:20

falling out you know so i think there's

7:22

this

7:24

corresponding kind of jarring

7:27

side by side narrative of our students

7:30

don't read

7:31

and then what we're seeing in the

7:33

classrooms um and then that kind of

7:35

fusing together for uh this real drive

7:38

and need to um do what i think ted was

7:40

talking about

7:42

bring that that heft and uh

7:44

and learning experience

7:47

along with it

7:50

well it was only a matter of time i

7:52

think so reina talgemeyer came up uh we

7:54

managed to do it within the first 10

7:56

minutes uh so i wanted to ask uh you all

7:58

also

7:59

um in terms of either personal favorites

8:03

or or uh graphic novels of obvious

8:06

recent historical importance uh which

8:08

books really helped graphic novels gain

8:10

acceptance in educator circles and what

8:13

was it about them that changed minds

8:18

um march is one of the ones that i've

8:19

seen has obviously for a variety of

8:21

reasons you've gotten immensely popular

8:23

i mean partly because it's about the

8:25

extremely important figure in american

8:27

democracy um and just the the

8:32

the the importance of that of that

8:34

subject and of course also the excellent

8:36

execution of it and therefore and all

8:37

these other elements i mean that was a

8:38

huge one we have 30 copies of that

8:41

sitting in the in the

8:42

back room that are used by the eighth

8:44

grade english ela classes because that's

8:46

i mean that's one where it's you know

8:48

you have this combination of extremely

8:49

important subject and extremely well

8:51

executed

8:53

book um that makes it really valuable in

8:56

terms of recent vintage uh as a

8:58

classroom text

9:02

yeah this one oh good oh sorry

9:04

um it's interesting because we forget

9:07

like literally it's almost 30 years ago

9:09

that the graphic novel was on the cover

9:11

of the new york times magazine and other

9:13

things and

9:14

that

9:15

talking about books like mouse and

9:17

persepolis and the watchmen and other

9:19

things like that which really were a

9:21

little bit wider known than some of the

9:23

manga the dc comics the marvel and you

9:25

know some of the other things but the

9:27

truth of the matter is that it's still

9:30

taking a long time in certain venues for

9:35

teachers and parents to realize that

9:37

graphic novels have um

9:40

so much content to offer i mean i just

9:42

think of in one of the early first

9:44

second graphic novels the photographer

9:46

which was out about a doctor without

9:48

borders and was just such an exceptional

9:51

literally it was the only book for young

9:53

people or older youth on doctors without

9:56

borders and it presented itself as a

9:58

graphic novel and was of course as

10:00

equally valuable as anything that could

10:02

have been written in prose

10:04

and so i think that's really important

10:06

to think about the fact that for many of

10:09

us and those of us on this panel you

10:12

know we live with piles of incredibly

10:14

heavy graphic novels where we know that

10:16

they're so heavy because there's so much

10:18

ink in them and that um

10:20

but so many people in the general

10:23

population haven't found the science

10:25

comics or the history comics or the

10:26

world civic comics or they don't know

10:29

that there's a harper alley or graphics

10:32

or tune books or other things like that

10:34

um but of course reyna

10:37

reyna did have a lot to do with

10:40

uh changing parents perceptions of

10:42

graphic novels betsy has you know new

10:44

kid in her hand we we had jean's book

10:47

when us uh

10:49

prince and then we had jerry croft's

10:51

book win a newbery and i'm done

10:53

no and i i just want to play off of that

10:55

because i feel like

10:57

you can say like well a mouse won a

10:59

pulitzer and therefore it changed the

11:01

entire world and to a certain extent it

11:02

did but a lot of people haven't heard of

11:04

it even though it's being right now

11:06

banned again okay

11:07

um

11:08

but i think it's different for each

11:10

person who is one over to comics you

11:12

know people look at dog man and they're

11:14

like

11:15

dog man it's just a bunch of poop jokes

11:17

and like no man dog man's deep it's got

11:20

all sorts of emotional clarity and it

11:22

gets into like the nature of good and

11:25

evil but on like a personal level it's

11:27

just oh it's really good but you

11:29

wouldn't know that from it's about a dog

11:30

and his head was so done to a cop it's

11:32

funny

11:33

but um i think when you have books like

11:35

the arrival for example these are books

11:37

that just completely can change your

11:39

personal perception on it um and it

11:42

helps when they win a big shiny awards

11:44

to a certain extent but again you know

11:45

it's an individual thing some people

11:48

will never be convinced

11:51

i mean a little more historical i mean

11:52

historically it only dates back to the

11:54

90s but like i mean jeff smith's bone

11:56

was of course that was probably the

11:58

first scholastic like major acquisition

12:00

of a comic that was an indie pop an

12:02

indie darling not darling but it was an

12:04

indie published book that that was

12:06

scholastic suddenly deciding to

12:08

you know bring this into the mainstream

12:10

and bring it into the colorado book

12:11

sales and color it yeah the colored

12:13

version i still have the black and white

12:14

version i still have the

12:16

the brick black and white paperback

12:18

that's how i prefer to read it those

12:19

ring sequences they work so much better

12:20

black one anyway um

12:22

but yeah i mean bone was

12:24

in recent vintage like the the real

12:26

progenitor of a lot of school club

12:29

comics in schools simply because that

12:31

you that was in your scholastic book

12:32

fair and that got everything started

12:35

more or

12:36

less i think part of what uh in terms of

12:40

gaining acceptance in educator circles

12:42

like with the teachers and the

12:43

professionals themselves in terms of

12:45

bringing it into instruction was a

12:48

combination of uh

12:50

i support teachers now with curriculum

12:52

and lead uh district-wide curriculum

12:54

adoptions and they're we're constantly

12:56

looking for things that check many boxes

12:59

if we're going to choose a text it's got

13:01

to do a lot of things for a lot of

13:03

students and so

13:05

when you know persepolis and mouse and

13:07

march started popping up on syllabi all

13:10

over you know grade middle middle

13:12

through high school and higher ed it was

13:15

things like okay i can teach content

13:18

along with actual skills and standards

13:21

with this one text so um and then you

13:25

know they're if they're approved by the

13:27

gatekeeping communities they are

13:29

orderable there are study guides that

13:31

often come with them um curriculum

13:34

materials and resources so those were

13:36

definitely kind of why

13:39

um why they started to gain acceptance

13:41

in educator circles is that it's not

13:43

always about oh well this isn't high art

13:46

or this isn't what i you know

13:48

got into teaching for i teach classics

13:51

or i teach

13:52

steinbeck you know it was it's often

13:54

like okay this is my job it's very

13:56

overwhelming i have a lot to accomplish

13:58

for a lot of students um what can i do

14:01

that's really efficient and meets a lot

14:03

of needs and i'm supported with that

14:06

so i think you know things like what

14:08

learners doing and other big publishers

14:10

and curriculum companies

14:12

and state departments of education in

14:15

terms of providing high quality

14:17

resources and materials and training and

14:19

webinars

14:21

is what is what will continue to move

14:23

that move that forward

14:27

now we definitely throughout the hour

14:29

want to talk about the specific uh

14:31

literacy skills that can be taught using

14:34

graphic novels uh

14:35

but because uh there have been a few

14:37

mentions already about the gatekeeping

14:39

element um and the fact that it is still

14:41

an ongoing issue to an extent uh

14:44

i wanted to ask everyone also

14:46

where

14:47

do educators still encounter uh

14:50

non-believers in graphic novels uh you

14:52

know whether that's

14:53

parents or administrators um you know

14:55

where do you see this happening most

14:57

often we were talking about this before

14:59

we started the call um

15:01

the official meeting uh english teachers

15:03

are where i get a lot of pushback

15:04

because i mean

15:06

i i i mentioned that i i'm the librarian

15:08

at a middle school and one of the

15:10

english teachers here specifically tells

15:11

her students you know it's gonna be you

15:13

gotta get a book it's gonna be 100 pages

15:14

and it can't be a comic can't be a

15:16

graphic novel none of this comic stuff

15:18

um and that's

15:20

oh boy yeah i mean there's a lot of

15:21

things wrong with that but it's i mean

15:24

it's it's

15:25

i think there's there's partly a

15:26

resistance because i mean this is a

15:28

complaint that also relatives of mine

15:30

who don't necessarily understand the

15:31

comics format have had is that there's

15:32

not enough words you know it doesn't

15:34

describe enough i don't i don't get how

15:35

you can read a comic there's there's not

15:37

enough words there to really get and

15:38

it's

15:39

it's a very different skill

15:41

i mean some of what an english teacher

15:43

does what an ela teacher reading teacher

15:45

does is applicable to analyzing comics

15:47

in the sense of being able to analyze a

15:49

narrative or you know character arcs or

15:51

elements of a story in that sense but

15:53

elements like analyzing the craft

15:55

analyzing sentence structure or phrasing

15:57

or you know is this a reliable narrator

15:59

um things like that those are not

16:00

transferable and as such i mean

16:03

they're sort of too close and yet way

16:05

too far from what some of what an

16:08

english teacher does that there's

16:09

there's i think a large resistance there

16:11

when it'd be more applicable to analyze

16:12

them and say an art class

16:14

um i don't know i'm kind of spitballing

16:16

here but that's

16:17

the most resistance i've seen has been

16:18

among english teachers some english

16:20

teachers to be clear some of my starters

16:22

allies have also been english teachers

16:23

the other two of those teachers here

16:25

love the graphic novels so it depends on

16:27

the teacher depends on their the way

16:28

that they're teaching and what how they

16:30

how they approach the pedagogy

16:32

i also think it really also depends on

16:33

what they know i mean i know a lot of us

16:35

go back to scott mccloud and

16:38

uh i'll never forget when somebody put

16:41

scott mccloud's understanding comics in

16:43

my hands and i was like oh a graphic

16:45

novel to figure out how to read a

16:46

graphic novel i get this

16:48

you know i get this and

16:51

so often they don't they aren't actually

16:53

aware of the details and the facts and

16:55

uh that graphic novels can have a wider

16:58

range of vocabulary in the same way that

17:00

a series has restricted vocabulary

17:02

because they're all trying to say the

17:04

same voice but graphic novels will span

17:08

you know the spectrum with all the

17:09

vocabulary

17:11

and i find that for me

17:13

as a teacher educator working everywhere

17:16

i guess that the resistance can come

17:18

from any part of the audience that i

17:21

didn't anticipate grandparents parents

17:24

guardians elementary school teachers

17:27

even libra librarians who are just less

17:30

familiar and haven't explored and but i

17:33

do agree really with ted i think it's

17:35

really important that one ally by the

17:37

way one ally in this situation can

17:40

really change everybody's perspective

17:44

uh on the value of graphic novels and i

17:47

don't understand why we're so afraid of

17:48

the visual because if we were television

17:51

and movies would never have become

17:52

successful theater would never have

17:54

become successful the in the camera and

17:57

quite frankly the phone like we wouldn't

18:00

care about having smartphones because

18:02

that's one of the biggest changes in how

18:04

we work so why are we so afraid of

18:07

visual images um on so many levels by

18:10

the way well but you just mentioned

18:12

scott mcleod and he himself talks about

18:14

this and he has a wonderful example he's

18:16

like look we understand visuals are art

18:18

i go into a museum i'm looking at a

18:20

painting that's art we understand

18:21

literature written word that is art this

18:24

is moby dick it is art put the two

18:26

together and that's not i don't know why

18:28

that is but it's not art um there was a

18:30

question in the comments about reading

18:32

stamina uh as well and i would like to

18:34

say uh you know a lot of these graphic

18:37

novels have a ton of text um it really

18:40

kind of depends on which one

18:42

and i do feel like

18:45

the more you read even if there are

18:47

pictures that doesn't mean that your

18:49

stamina because if you watch a kid read

18:51

graphic novel after graphic novel

18:52

graphic novel after background now just

18:54

think about the word count that's going

18:56

down there the pictures don't detract um

18:59

it's not like oh there's pictures there

19:01

therefore they're not reading the words

19:03

that is not what's going on um

19:07

yeah and then also the amount that they

19:09

re-read right like graphic novels and

19:12

comics are known for and we know that's

19:14

why we have all of i have them sitting

19:16

down here at my feet all of the

19:17

collected um peanuts cartoons and the

19:20

baby blues comic strips and anything

19:22

that you know lasted over five years in

19:24

serial form is anthologized and you go

19:27

to a bookstore and they're taking up

19:29

shelves and shelves so it because we yes

19:32

we've read them before but we're re

19:34

reading them and restudying them and

19:36

when you talk about building stamina

19:38

um and connecting to um what uh we were

19:41

hearing before about just the visual

19:43

imagery that we're surrounded by and

19:45

that phones are visual and and

19:47

connecting back to parents concerns is

19:49

what i found is really helpful is um

19:53

communicating to parents

19:55

how this is valuable in students daily

19:57

lived experiences like they see their

19:59

own children consumed by media and

20:01

scrolling maniacally not really

20:04

processing thoughtfully what they're

20:06

seeing

20:07

in visual form and that this is one way

20:10

to help them build the capacity and the

20:13

stamina for in taking all of that visual

20:16

stimulus that they can actually control

20:19

the pace of that through this medium and

20:22

process it more thoughtfully that we're

20:24

teaching them questions to ask we're

20:27

helping them look very closely the way

20:29

that we do close reading of texts we're

20:32

doing that with visuals we're

20:33

considering what if so we're considering

20:36

what do we not see what do we see that

20:38

others don't see how does who we are

20:41

culturally and ethnically racially and

20:44

all of these ways influence what we are

20:47

actually seeing and how we're making

20:49

meaning of it and so i think you know

20:51

whatever the concerns are um they're

20:54

they're valid and they're they're just

20:56

as varied

20:58

um as any other concern and and valid

21:02

and i think it helps really with opening

21:04

those lines of communication and

21:06

maintaining that school-to-home

21:08

partnership and and asking you know what

21:10

are the concerns if if there is a

21:12

concern about reading stamina where does

21:14

that come from what are you really

21:16

asking and worried about and then you

21:18

know how can this actually um how can i

21:21

show you that what we're doing is

21:22

actually in support of that goal that we

21:24

share for your child

21:26

you know the irony of so much of this is

21:28

it's uh some of you are too young to

21:31

remember but for a long time picture

21:33

books there was this whole idea that you

21:35

would only read picture books up to this

21:37

certain point and there was also an idea

21:40

about um

21:41

series books and you were you know any

21:45

serious book that you read was that was

21:48

not acceptable and that was less we've

21:50

gone through all these periods of time

21:52

um

21:53

really since the 1920s where some kind

21:55

of literature

21:57

was not valued in in an entire area not

22:01

just a specific book so we're not

22:03

talking about the banning and the

22:04

censorship because that's a whole other

22:06

webinar

22:07

extended

22:08

so i think all of these points are so

22:11

valid but it is about that perspective

22:14

it is about that perspective and

22:16

literally just doing something to say

22:18

hey

22:19

what if or i like to say so what what if

22:22

i mean no child has ever

22:24

gotten a disease or died as a result of

22:26

reading a graphic novel in the same way

22:28

that you don't

22:29

if you read anything you don't have a

22:31

negative physical experience unless it's

22:33

related to the mold so you know if we

22:36

keep mold out of books then we should

22:38

just put books in the hands of kids

22:41

there's a there's a phrase i forget

22:43

where i picked it up from first but it's

22:44

applicable to comics i think it was

22:45

about comics that i read it but it's

22:47

applicable to a lot of other new media

22:48

too which is that a lot of it

22:50

anytime there's a new medium or a new

22:52

specific variation on that medium or new

22:53

genre it's seen as simultaneously

22:56

worthless and or sorry harmless and

22:58

harmful

23:00

that is to say it's either frivolous and

23:02

silly and completely unworthy of any

23:03

sort of serious study and slash or

23:06

corrupting our children and you know

23:08

driving them to horrible acts and so

23:10

forth and it's thomas was the victim of

23:12

that thomas has been the victim of that

23:13

several times comics has been a victim

23:15

of a moral panic well like three or four

23:17

times now um but i mean the same with

23:20

true you know video games rap music

23:21

whatever other sort of new media panic

23:22

you want to put in there but it's that

23:24

it's either harmless or harmful which

23:26

means that there's no way to analyze it

23:28

critically and you know dispassionately

23:30

and realize you know here are the things

23:32

you can do with comics and also there

23:33

are some things you can't do with comics

23:35

i mean there there are limits on every

23:37

medium that you can use that when you're

23:38

when you're teaching in any format

23:46

those are such great points uh from

23:48

everybody uh

23:50

before we segue into a more uh these

23:52

granular discussion of comics and

23:54

literary skills um

23:56

i just wanted to go around one more time

23:57

and ask um you know what's uh you know

24:00

for you personally or or you know

24:03

through anecdotes you've picked up along

24:06

the way uh you know most effective in

24:08

helping

24:09

uh you know graphic novel non-believers

24:12

uh see the value in using graphic novels

24:15

or literary literacy development or

24:18

you know

24:20

within

24:21

the grounds of a school period

24:32

i have this exercise that my teachers do

24:35

where they take a graphic novel and they

24:37

type up the language from a graphic

24:39

novel and they take a prose text that

24:42

has a similar idea theme or content and

24:45

type it up and then they compare not

24:47

knowing which is which

24:48

not knowing which and which and then

24:51

they often find that

24:53

they're of equal or stronger value in

24:56

terms of the vocabulary the sentence

24:58

structure the point of view the liter

25:01

the literary perspective and other

25:03

things it's just a quick little thing

25:04

when we're talking about it

25:06

um the other thing that i think is super

25:08

important in teacher education programs

25:10

and librarian programs is to teach

25:12

people how graphic novels work if they

25:14

don't already know

25:16

and there's so many ways that you can do

25:18

it sveta's got lots of good things in

25:21

how she does this they're just so many

25:23

great ways that you can teach them the

25:26

vocabulary the the difference between um

25:30

literal and inferential literally can

25:32

often be a speech bubble versus a

25:35

thinking bubble i that's literally how i

25:37

teach literal and inferential

25:39

comprehension skills and boom

25:43

you get a few can you get a few

25:44

converters that you didn't even

25:46

anticipate you get a few that you didn't

25:47

even anticipate

25:49

well and that was something that really

25:51

shocked me when i we have to remember

25:53

there are people who simply

25:55

either don't know how to read a graphing

25:56

novel or have a great deal of difficulty

25:59

in doing so because they didn't grow up

26:01

with them i worked with a woman at the

26:03

library who

26:05

who really had a very difficult time you

26:07

know and would look at the graph and

26:08

i'll be like okay so what do i read

26:09

first the pictures or the words and for

26:13

someone who had grown up with you know

26:15

every karl barks comic in the world at a

26:16

7-eleven

26:18

this just blew my mind like

26:21

yes

26:22

um so there but so we have to kind of

26:25

bear that in mind that when people say

26:27

there is no value to this sometimes they

26:29

simply can't read them themselves this

26:31

this does happen too

26:35

yeah i think that speaks to really how

26:37

how uncomfortable people are with

26:39

anything that is destabilizing you know

26:42

in any way and then they feel that way

26:43

as well for their children and often

26:45

teachers may feel that way for their

26:47

charges you know in their classroom and

26:50

i know a lot of teachers i've worked

26:51

with you know want to teach something

26:53

they have full confidence in and there's

26:54

a lot of reasons for that and benefits

26:57

to that but simultaneously we want to

26:59

support teachers with modeling and

27:01

experiencing that jarring and slightly

27:04

uncomfortable discomfort around

27:07

something that is unexpected unpredicted

27:10

experimental to them and to be

27:13

vulnerable and brave at the same time

27:16

with engaging with that

27:18

with that work and i found what what

27:20

tends to really um

27:22

turn that needle or uh make that turning

27:25

point that you asked about earlier

27:27

with non-believers if that's what we're

27:29

calling them is uh is just inviting them

27:32

in to see you know as soon as they see

27:35

what work students are producing what

27:38

questions we're helping students ask of

27:40

the visual storytelling that they're

27:43

engaging with

27:45

then then that's where where you start

27:47

to see a shift like oh my student my

27:50

child is asking questions i've never

27:52

asked of a visual before or my student

27:54

has skills and techniques

27:56

to make meaning and process this visual

28:00

page that i have never seen before i

28:02

don't remember learning when i was in

28:04

high school you know whereas a parent

28:06

who's like oh you brought home romeo and

28:08

juliet i remember when i was reading

28:10

that and you know you can easily connect

28:12

to that and you still have that very

28:14

comforting feeling of being the

28:15

authority or someone who knows about

28:18

that or has something to offer your

28:20

child um so it it's just it's that

28:23

that's always going to be a little bit

28:25

discombobulating um but we want people

28:28

to step into it and lean into it and

28:31

and welcome it and

28:33

and feel confident to be a little

28:35

unconfident with it

28:38

yeah and just to play off of that a

28:40

little bit to sort of remind me that

28:42

there are book comics that are covering

28:44

topics that simply don't exist uh as

28:47

pros so if you can find me a whole bunch

28:50

of menstruation parody uh p-a-r-i-t-y

28:53

parity uh

28:55

books for young people uh go to it but

28:58

uh right now this is this is all she

29:00

wrote

29:03

i think that's just a really good point

29:05

there are so many things i know i

29:07

recently been dread and caught up on all

29:09

the history comics from first second the

29:12

stonewall riot one the national parks

29:14

one which i dreaded i did not want to

29:16

read the national parks one because i

29:18

thought why am i reading the national

29:20

parks one i learned so much and it had

29:23

such a good contemporary

29:25

um like look at the questions and think

29:28

the considerations we should have about

29:30

the national parks and it's funny

29:32

because

29:33

betsy and i often have some of the same

29:35

things sitting here and

29:38

whether it's the world civics comics and

29:40

ending i think the other thing we really

29:43

have to think about is so often we can

29:45

make a topic accessible

29:47

for an audience either a highly able

29:50

audience a less able audience um

29:53

or just any audience uh

29:56

the science comics and crows i've read

29:58

two books in my life on crows one was

30:00

the scientists in the field book on

30:02

crows and the other one was the science

30:04

comics on crows i now feel i can answer

30:06

the basic jeopardy question on crows um

30:09

so i think one of the keys will be that

30:10

we get a jeopardy winner

30:12

and he she or they says that they

30:15

studied for jeopardy by only winning

30:17

graphic novels and i think that will be

30:20

a really good moment

30:22

uh i study for my ap us history uh test

30:25

back in high school by reading larry

30:26

goenig's cartoon history of the united

30:28

states so like yeah larry going against

30:30

that's another really early example of a

30:32

non-fiction comics guy who i would love

30:34

to see more of his stuff being

30:35

circulated even though it's somewhat

30:36

outdated by this point like because that

30:38

was cartoony the universe was the stuff

30:40

i was reading back in high school which

30:41

was probably way too young for it but

30:43

um anyway

30:47

i want to touch on something that we're

30:48

seeing in the chat quite a bit um

30:51

just because i think it's really

30:52

relevant to

30:53

this conversation about uh

30:55

you know not just gatekeepers but uh

30:57

what people have you know alluded to

30:59

with sometimes the gap between parent

31:01

and child in terms of

31:02

comfort and familiarity with a graphic

31:04

novel um and how the popularity of manga

31:07

factors into that um if you know if a

31:10

parent or an educator is making a good

31:12

faith effort

31:13

to understand the form uh but also

31:16

encounters you know graphic novels that

31:19

we that read left to right and graphic

31:21

novels that read right to left

31:23

um

31:25

uh what advice you'd give them or if

31:26

you've seen that that confounding the

31:28

process uh even during those good faith

31:30

efforts

31:32

i want to jump in with that one i

31:33

actually just recorded a webinar

31:35

yesterday on manga teaching with manga

31:39

for a group of librarians i think it'll

31:41

be live next week next tuesday um i can

31:45

maybe share the link in our resource

31:47

guide but we had a rich discussion on

31:49

this yesterday and how actually the

31:51

idea that it reads um

31:53

in a reverse way is actually not as much

31:56

of an impediment as we would think like

31:58

that doesn't actually have anything to

31:59

do with the the grammar of japanese

32:02

visual language that's really at play in

32:05

a manga that's quite different from the

32:08

visual language that western readers are

32:10

used to with north american comics and

32:13

european comics so um we talked a lot

32:15

about that idea of japanese visual

32:18

language and our manga readers our

32:20

students here in the us

32:22

or north america are

32:24

bilingual

32:25

visual language speakers

32:28

and and there's a lot to really learn

32:30

about the different choices that a manga

32:33

creator is employing and experimenting

32:36

with and using and i think that might be

32:38

more of the

32:40

the disconnect when a parent looks at

32:42

the manga their child is reading it's

32:43

like

32:44

throws their hands up you know there are

32:46

things that aren't translatable

32:48

immediately like some of the iconic

32:50

symbols don't have the same cultural

32:53

meaning as they would here where drops

32:56

of sweat means something very different

32:58

a bloody nose means like sexual interest

33:00

and romantic arousal um so there are

33:03

some things that you just sort of learn

33:05

and become fluent with as you read more

33:07

manga the way that that anyone learns a

33:10

new language

33:11

um

33:12

but also

33:14

well i'll just pause there and invite

33:15

others to talk but there's a lot more at

33:18

play with whether reading manga is

33:20

actually

33:21

less of a cognitive load and demand and

33:24

or more and actually it's it's both it

33:28

fits one of the the special

33:30

golden criteria of a good teaching

33:33

resource which it has a low floor and a

33:35

high ceiling so it can be overly

33:38

cognitively demanding while also being

33:40

very accessible

33:42

i think that's such a good point about

33:44

the fact that a we have to all be

33:46

decision makers as readers as thinkers

33:48

for decision makers and as readers were

33:50

decision makers and the reading of manga

33:53

the reading of a graphic novel the

33:55

reading of determining whether something

33:57

is a fact or point of view all of those

33:59

are just decisions and any human being

34:02

who can navigate decision making those

34:05

are really good skills

34:07

and super important and with the fmris

34:10

that we're able to get now looking at

34:12

two people one who's reading prose texts

34:15

and one who is reading

34:16

um a graphic a graphic visual or a

34:19

graphic novel or manga by the way

34:22

they're firing differently but they're

34:23

both firing like the internet or a

34:26

baby's young brain

34:28

um and it reminds me often of a video

34:31

that tiffany schlain did which is um

34:34

from networks to neurons and how babies

34:36

work and it's just a different kind of

34:38

firing it's not good it's not bad it's

34:40

just a different kind of firing so it's

34:42

that i think that's so incredibly

34:44

important and i also think going back to

34:46

something that betsy said i think a lot

34:48

about this i think about the fact that

34:51

when it comes to memoirs you know when

34:53

it comes to memoirs

34:55

and when it comes to

34:57

biographies how much more interesting

35:00

some of them are in a graphic format and

35:04

how

35:04

you don't necessarily get bogged down

35:07

in different parts of it and

35:10

we've really been exploring memoir and

35:13

biographies in graphic

35:15

whether it's the center for cartoon

35:17

studies collaboration with i don't know

35:19

if it's disney now or little brown it

35:21

kind of must be a little brown now

35:23

keeping up or whether it's people who

35:27

literally

35:29

you know talk to us about covid and

35:31

would post their graphic their their

35:34

comic or their graphic for covid and now

35:37

are putting it together putting it

35:38

together so i think that's there's just

35:40

so much there

35:42

let's stay on that topic then let's talk

35:44

a bit more about graphic non-fiction

35:46

specifically um and what you found are

35:48

the benefits of uh teaching history or

35:51

science through graphic novels um

35:54

graphic non-fiction or um just in

35:57

sharing

35:58

uh

36:00

you know

36:01

topics uh with readers through those

36:04

formats

36:05

i mean one thing that i feel like is

36:07

kind of important to note is that

36:08

nonfiction has already had a long

36:10

tradition of at least the ones that i'm

36:12

seeing in schools having illustrations

36:14

or photographs to go with it so in a

36:15

sense they're already aping cues from

36:17

graphic novels in a larger sense um

36:21

in the way that they're using both

36:22

visual and uh and verbal information on

36:24

the page um this is this is sort of just

36:27

a side note for me but it's something

36:28

i've been thinking about a lot about the

36:29

the the viability of certain genres in

36:31

different media like why

36:33

certain genres seem to work better in

36:35

one medium as opposed to another like i

36:37

i have a personal feeling that like for

36:38

example horror works much better in a

36:39

movie format than it does in a straight

36:41

prose book and in the same sense i feel

36:43

like part of the explosion of graphic

36:44

memoirs is that memoir and biography

36:47

tend to work really well in comics and

36:49

it's something about the way in which

36:51

an experience described in comics can be

36:54

both subjective and objective whereas in

36:57

a pro's biography it would be treated as

36:59

inherently

37:00

at least at least the way that i'm

37:01

reading them it's treated as inherently

37:03

a fully subjective experience i was like

37:05

this is how this person felt entirely in

37:07

this moment but there's no broader view

37:08

whereas a film biopic would be entirely

37:11

objective because or it feels that way

37:13

because you're seeing it happen

37:15

sort of more or less with completely

37:17

clear unobstructed views and then comics

37:19

sort of straddle that line and being a

37:21

an illustrated version of an actual

37:22

event

37:23

to maintain the author's perspective on

37:25

that event because this is how they're

37:26

drawing it but at the same time

37:29

has the feel of being objectively

37:30

recorded i don't know this is sort of a

37:32

conversation for a different webinar i

37:33

suppose but

37:35

graphic memoir has rapidly become yeah

37:37

it's

37:38

memoir biography more generally have

37:40

become such a huge part of comics just

37:41

because it it both personalizes and also

37:45

not objectifies um

37:47

maintains a level of objectivity about

37:49

this subject um in a way that pros

37:51

biographies find i i've found to be they

37:54

have a real difficult time doing

37:55

i'm really excited by this idea

37:57

particularly because i'm such a stickler

37:59

for accuracy in my picture book

38:01

nonfiction where people are putting in

38:03

fake quotes and stuff and it drives me

38:04

mad yet i have absolutely no problem

38:07

with nathan hale's hazardous tales which

38:09

is done in a comic format and i'm like

38:11

why is this because i think you've

38:12

really hit on this because this book is

38:14

not pretending that this isn't being

38:16

seen through a specific lens

38:18

um everything that we all non-fiction

38:21

that kids are reading is seen through a

38:22

specific lens the difference is when you

38:24

have comics they're being really really

38:26

overt about it saying you know what the

38:28

lens is yeah you know what the lens is

38:30

we know for a fact that you know this

38:33

particular you know doctor at this

38:34

particular time wasn't leaning on this

38:36

particular lamp post but we have to show

38:38

it in some sort of format so i feel like

38:40

there is almost a kind of honesty to a

38:43

non-fiction comic um that

38:46

would be a little harder to find with a

38:48

work of nonfiction that was purely prose

38:50

this is fascinating yeah

38:52

the example i keep going back to and i

38:53

wish i had one of his books going around

38:54

but joe sacco has done a whole bunch of

38:57

i mean he's kind of he's not the only

38:58

person doing this but he's he was a

39:00

a a non-fiction comics journalist for

39:02

the longest time when his any any of his

39:04

works but like severe garage day in

39:06

particular is one that i read up i read

39:08

many times like during college and the

39:10

fact that he's reporting as sort of

39:12

as as bloodlessly and as objectively as

39:14

he can but still very much aware that he

39:17

is and you know he is he is an outsider

39:19

he's a foreigner he's a reporter in a

39:21

particular time and place who has no

39:22

real connection to this culture and the

39:24

the balance that those books of his

39:26

maintain

39:27

he's he's someone i highly recommend

39:28

because his work is he's been doing it

39:30

for years he's been perfecting that hard

39:32

um but yeah sorry again i'm kind of

39:34

dragging it off topic but yeah there's

39:36

something about

39:37

the visual information being processed

39:39

that that lets you understand oh this

39:41

isn't really happening but it's close

39:42

enough you know

39:44

yeah i think that part that's really

39:46

where the science comics are the most

39:48

interesting when they move away from

39:50

this sort of clinical

39:52

diagram you know i often hear science

39:54

teachers say like oh why you i use

39:56

science comics but it's it's in a way

39:58

that just really

40:00

supplements or really replaces or mimics

40:02

what the textbook is doing or you know

40:04

traditional curriculum textbook and

40:05

science is also going to have visuals

40:07

and diagrams and coloring sheets where

40:10

students color in different color codes

40:12

of organ systems and all that and i

40:14

think what's interesting about the comic

40:16

format that you both have been speaking

40:18

about is that it

40:19

brings in that layer of subjectivity

40:21

involved and even science reporting um

40:24

you know the metaphors that a typical

40:26

science textbook uses unknown to the

40:29

curriculum writers have a lot of power

40:32

in how they're communicating how science

40:35

topics work like the whole field of

40:38

physics is just completely inundated

40:40

with metaphor um and and they're you

40:42

know we'd be we'd be remiss to not

40:45

educate students and call awareness to

40:47

the fact that we are actually telling a

40:49

story even when we think we're not um

40:52

and we're communicating about scientific

40:54

truth um and then and then when you when

40:56

you do have that subjective element in

40:58

the comics form it's inviting

41:01

conversation and study about the

41:03

implications and emotional impact of

41:05

those science topics and

41:07

um how they have real world um

41:11

connections you know and then and then

41:12

that's where our students are really

41:14

brought into like what what does this

41:16

knowledge of viruses have to do with my

41:18

lived experience and what i want to be

41:20

in the world and how i want to

41:22

manage

41:24

what i'm experiencing

41:28

yeah i think that's a great point and in

41:30

its way it's an answer to the

41:33

comic skeptic who might say you know as

41:35

soon as someone is drawing a sequence

41:38

and

41:39

you know claiming that it's non-fiction

41:41

they are they are creating a fiction you

41:42

know it's a reminder that

41:44

um you know

41:46

people are working in metaphor and

41:48

bringing their subjectivity even to

41:49

these other venues that are also

41:51

theoretically um you know neutral

41:54

omniscient objective

41:56

um

41:57

let's see we've got about 15 minutes

41:59

left altogether uh and i want to make

42:01

sure we get to some

42:03

attendee questions but first let's let's

42:05

touch a bit as promised on graphic

42:07

novels and literary skills um

42:10

for

42:12

uh

42:12

beginning readers say

42:14

what literacy skills um

42:17

can be taught using graphic novels

42:19

all of them

42:22

i mean it's really simple we can go from

42:24

phonological awareness how sounds work

42:26

in the reading aloud to alphabetic

42:28

principle to fluency vocabulary and

42:32

comprehension i mean the truth of the

42:33

matter is it's like

42:35

the material isn't the destination it's

42:37

the vehicle to the destination and with

42:40

the combination so there's i would argue

42:44

that there is nothing that cannot be

42:45

done with the appropriate graphic novel

42:48

i just recently sergio rougey has

42:51

these i can read comics and then the

42:54

second one is just out fish and wave

42:57

fish and wave and i was just looking at

42:59

it and thinking how i was going to work

43:01

with early

43:02

like really young educators so uh my

43:05

panelists may disagree with me but i

43:07

think that there's nothing that can't be

43:09

done

43:13

no objections here toon books as well

43:15

also does a lot of the early easy

43:17

reading um books as well and it kind of

43:19

depends on which artist that they do but

43:21

i can say that if you're looking for

43:23

easy reading non-fiction for example

43:26

my son was freaking obsessed with

43:28

antonio for a couple years there so

43:31

yeah i mean there's when i keep thinking

43:33

of what comics do really well it's it's

43:36

it's helping to

43:39

get across subtleties in in narrative so

43:41

helping across subtleties in the

43:43

narrative that would be difficult for

43:44

people who aren't necessarily fluent in

43:46

the language or don't have full

43:47

comprehension of it or who are in any

43:49

way working on their language skills

43:50

still understand you know if you have a

43:52

character who is acting untrustworthy

43:54

you can have that you know be expressed

43:55

through body language and gesture and in

43:57

extreme cases even like the shape of the

43:59

word balloon or background or things

44:00

like that um

44:02

and people will still get across those

44:04

get those elements even if they don't

44:05

necessarily have the full vocabulary so

44:07

it's it's useful for students who may be

44:10

high low readers maybe striving readers

44:11

maybe english language learners who want

44:13

to participate in understanding a

44:14

narrative but don't necessarily have the

44:16

linguistic tools not to say that all

44:18

comics are best for for kids who can't

44:19

speak who have limited skills i mean

44:22

there's a lot of nuance that can be you

44:23

know squeezed out of any of these books

44:26

but there's something particularly

44:27

helpful i think about

44:29

uh part of the reason that i think reina

44:30

telgemeier has

44:31

been the unmatched queen of the new york

44:34

times bestseller was for so long is

44:35

because she's so very good at drawing

44:38

extremely simple but very very readable

44:40

expressions gestures body language you

44:43

can always tell in her in her books sort

44:45

of how this person feels about what

44:46

they're saying or how they feel about

44:47

the other person because those lines are

44:49

so very crisp and clear and that's i

44:51

think what comics do really well is

44:52

getting across that

44:54

that this the nuances the subtleties of

44:56

conversation of character um the way in

44:58

which a place makes you feel or an

45:00

object has you know what what weight an

45:01

object has to this person um yeah i mean

45:05

for me comics aren't necessarily even

45:09

for me what comics do is story is king

45:11

someone was someone on my tumblr was

45:13

just posting about this recently for a

45:14

webinar they did but like story is

45:16

always king and what comics do really

45:18

well is put that story first front and

45:20

foremost so you cannot ignore this

45:22

character is you know this character is

45:24

crucial this character is a villain this

45:25

character is a hero whatever but this

45:27

character always has a visual weight to

45:29

them that is really just unmistakable to

45:32

even the casual reader

45:34

that's beautiful ted i like that

45:36

description um and it it makes me think

45:38

of um

45:40

the

45:41

with the reina telgemeier the crispness

45:43

and cleanness and how much is

45:44

communicated with the visual of these

45:47

characters and what they're navigating

45:48

and their anxieties um is that when

45:51

you're talking about early readers

45:54

and you compare a typical early reader

45:56

text that's not a graphic novel or like

45:58

if we're thinking of those bob books or

46:00

something like that where

46:02

there's decodable text on the page and

46:04

maybe a visual to support it and when

46:06

you think about being a parent or even a

46:08

teacher who's conferring with a young

46:10

reader in the in a literacy workshop um

46:14

and you're thinking about what what else

46:15

can i ask this child you know how can i

46:18

have this meaningful discussion about

46:20

what's on the page with my child and

46:22

prolong the time that we're looking at

46:24

this page together it's like well if

46:26

you're looking at a graphic novel a

46:28

comic version of an early reader text

46:30

suddenly you have so much more you can

46:33

ask about you know what just even the

46:35

two simple questions what do you see

46:38

what do you notice

46:40

why do you say that what do you see that

46:41

makes you say that what's happening how

46:43

do you know

46:45

all of that those nuances ted was

46:48

describing are

46:49

at work in really sophisticated ways in

46:51

something as deceptively simple as a

46:54

three

46:54

panel calvin and hobbes strip i've done

46:57

this in a second grade classroom where

46:59

i've walked in and just simply said

47:00

what's happening

47:02

how do you know and i charted their

47:04

responses and we had three butcher

47:06

papers full of observations because once

47:09

they start noticing little things like

47:11

hobbes's paws are over the blanket you

47:14

know not under the blanket i wonder you

47:16

know why are they over the blanket and

47:19

you know we had discussions with second

47:21

graders about how you know it made him

47:23

more human and it reminded us that

47:25

calvin is the only one who actually sees

47:27

him and that he's actually mimicking

47:29

calvin's own fear it's really calvin

47:31

who's got his hands over the blanket

47:33

that's afraid to go to bed at night but

47:35

but his stuffy is doing that you know so

47:38

um could i have had that same

47:40

conversation with a bob book

47:43

that you know that's fascinating what

47:44

you were talking about is

47:45

especially with um my sister is a an art

47:48

an art educator she works at the

47:49

minneapolis institute of art um

47:51

there's a there's a very specific i

47:53

don't know if it's a tool or a framework

47:54

or something for analyzing um

47:56

paintings with uh young children where

47:58

it's essentially that exact process

47:59

where you say what is this picture what

48:01

are you seeing you know what is

48:03

happening it's not from our educators

48:05

there you go okay yeah it's that

48:07

framework it's there's no there's no you

48:08

don't go into it with any context you

48:10

don't have any leading questions you

48:11

don't know the history or the you know

48:13

the biography of the person who created

48:14

or anything you just look at it what do

48:15

you see on the page and what in what

48:18

information can you

48:19

distill from all of that that's

48:21

fascinating yeah and then the comics

48:23

format beyond just sort of a static

48:25

painting that you might do in an arts

48:27

education class is that

48:29

i think

48:30

we talked about this earlier but all of

48:32

the inferencing and what's not on the

48:34

page you know is as much ripe for

48:37

conversation in a conferring

48:39

teacher-student conversation or a parent

48:41

child um where so much is left that this

48:45

the child is filling in so many of the

48:47

gaps between the panel sequences whereas

48:50

in a in a painting yes you can have

48:52

equally as robust and rich conversations

48:54

about what students notice but what i

48:57

find more

48:58

exciting and rewarding is when i talk to

49:00

them about an actual sequence of panels

49:02

or sequential art because

49:05

they're when when you ask them what do

49:06

you see that makes you say that and then

49:08

also what do you wonder

49:10

um you get so much variety in there like

49:13

all the different ways that they're

49:15

likes own experiences or lack of

49:17

experiences have influenced how they

49:20

filled in those gaps

49:22

is exciting

49:24

yeah i think those mentions uh

49:26

of nuances even in early readers graphic

49:29

novels are so important i'm trying to

49:31

stay in my lane as moderator but i'll

49:32

mention quickly a couple times i've

49:35

taught uh you know a seminar on

49:38

uh an introduction to graphic novels for

49:40

interested children's book writers an

49:42

introduction to

49:43

the the real early nuts and bolts of

49:45

graphic novel scripting and one of the

49:47

things i try to do is uh

49:50

the theoretical graphic novel script

49:52

that has a caption describing a bear

49:55

climbing up a tree

49:56

i try and convey the difference between

49:59

that caption

50:01

and a drawing of the bear climbing that

50:02

tree with ease or the bear struggling to

50:05

climb that tree

50:06

which i mentioned just as a way of

50:07

saying uh

50:09

fundamental you know literary high

50:12

literary value like irony i think can be

50:14

conveyed

50:15

very efficiently very legibly even in

50:18

the simplest uh

50:20

early reader graphic novel in a way that

50:22

i think is useful for

50:23

uh literacy altogether um but i want to

50:26

touch on the other end of the spectrum

50:28

quickly um

50:29

in terms of

50:30

you know the what continues to be the

50:32

curious place of graphic novels in

50:35

schools and libraries in the classroom

50:37

um

50:38

ted um

50:39

a while ago touched on the question of

50:41

whether

50:42

uh they're a better fit an art class

50:45

or an english class which is you know

50:46

another hour entirely but i'm curious

50:49

um

50:52

uh guess what you would say to the

50:54

english teacher who

50:56

the the 12th grade english teacher who

50:59

in

51:00

deciding their their reading list for a

51:02

semester

51:03

you know if they're choosing between

51:07

a teenager's introduction to faulkner

51:09

versus

51:10

uh

51:11

you know whether or not to put a graphic

51:13

novel

51:15

on their list for that semester

51:17

um

51:19

how you make that case

51:21

if the

51:22

there are you know still better venues

51:25

for graphic novels in an educational

51:26

environment or

51:28

or whatever whatever thoughts that

51:30

generates in our last uh five minutes or

51:32

so

51:33

yeah i wanna i wanna respond by just

51:35

saying that

51:36

i found it more helpful in those

51:38

conversations to move away from a

51:42

structure of this or that

51:44

because then teachers always feel like

51:46

there's some kind of loss

51:48

or trade-off well if i do that then i

51:50

can't do this um and this is important

51:53

because you know and i

51:54

and i want talking about what we said

51:57

earlier where teachers need things that

51:59

are going to do a lot of things for a

52:01

lot of students um and so i would

52:04

introduce it more as

52:06

you know we we also need to move away

52:07

from this idea of having to teach a

52:09

whole class novel all the way through

52:12

you know that was i taught 12th 12th

52:14

grade english for years and i was doing

52:16

that the whole class now and while

52:18

there's a lot of value and for sure we

52:20

should still do some of that um i wish

52:22

that the first time i taught persepolis

52:24

in the classroom i had just done

52:26

excerpts

52:27

i wanted and i write about this in my

52:29

book and different ways to incorporate

52:31

graphic novels without feeling like

52:32

you're losing out on some other thing um

52:35

or not exposing kids to something you

52:37

feel like they need to be exposed to

52:40

and and just moving more towards wider

52:43

exposure to everything so teaching less

52:46

and offering more

52:48

um and and using excerpts i mean the

52:51

graphic novel and comics medium is so

52:54

perfect for that right because you have

52:55

three panel comics or you have a splash

52:58

page that you could simply bring in to

53:00

supplement or complement a study of

53:03

a faulkner's short story

53:06

or enrich an understanding of that time

53:08

period or what was going on with a

53:11

subpopulation and who's in the

53:13

background of a factor story um what

53:15

else was happening in the south and in

53:17

that turn of the century um how were

53:19

other people envisioning this historical

53:21

event that is a pivotal um part of a

53:24

faulkner plot um and so the graphic

53:26

novel comics medium can really enhance

53:29

the instruction that a teacher may

53:30

already be doing where the text they're

53:32

very comfortable and proud to teach um

53:35

so so that that's one way to

53:38

to

53:39

support those questions

53:42

i think it's also really

53:44

we forget that we can do things i agree

53:46

with everything that has been said and

53:48

like think there's so many ways to go

53:50

but

53:51

why why is it that some kids don't read

53:54

the prose first version of long way down

53:56

and some kids read the graphic novel

53:58

it's really in certain people at certain

54:00

times under certain circumstances

54:02

there's absolutely no reason

54:05

that kids can't read different texts

54:07

because as i always say if we can't all

54:10

agree on the 50 text that every human

54:11

being must read by his her or their 50th

54:13

birthday

54:14

um

54:15

then there probably aren't 50 texts that

54:17

we all we all have to read so

54:20

let's just let them read let's just let

54:22

them read

54:24

but i also love this idea of

54:26

supplementing

54:27

um

54:28

you know your faulkner whatever it is

54:30

with

54:31

marginalized voices that are in comics

54:34

now um that you wouldn't necessarily be

54:36

seeing you know um you know books by

54:39

indigenous writers you know who would

54:41

not necessarily be on you know the canon

54:44

of what you were supposed to read but

54:45

then could supplement and you could have

54:47

these as well in the reading experience

54:49

i just think that's very interesting

54:53

we just have a few minutes left now uh

54:55

i'm seeing the chats uh more than one

54:57

request for uh graphic novel

55:00

recommendations um especially for

55:02

families or first-time readers uh we

55:04

will of course have uh you know a

55:06

substantial reading list that we'll send

55:08

out but uh just in these last few

55:09

minutes um since uh at least a

55:12

couple of you folks brought hard copies

55:14

uh

55:15

to hold up to the camera i'd welcome to

55:17

do that um

55:19

if there are any elevator pitches for

55:20

for favorites you'd particularly like to

55:22

deliver uh please feel welcome in these

55:24

last few minutes

55:25

i want to make sure i get one title in

55:27

um it's called oh no i'm blurred

55:31

it's called

55:32

here

55:33

by uh richard mcguire and it's gonna be

55:36

i wanted to bring it up so many

55:37

different times but i i'm mesmerized by

55:40

uh the the titles that keep getting

55:42

popping up so um

55:44

so efficiently and expertly um but this

55:47

one because if i have to just say one

55:50

this is the one that i

55:51

will will hand over to a parent to a

55:54

young child to a high school senior to

55:56

an educator who's been doing this for

55:58

years to someone new to teaching with

56:00

comics or graphic novels it's almost

56:03

entirely wordless with some minimal text

56:07

um it's a blend between a science comic

56:10

fiction

56:12

so really the idea in a nutshell is that

56:14

he visualize he portrays one corner of a

56:19

room in a house

56:20

that's the whole graphic novel but he

56:22

takes it through

56:23

thousands hundreds of thousands of years

56:27

throughout the earth's history so you

56:29

see that room in 1986 you see it in 2015

56:33

with that mid-century modern decor you

56:35

see it in um

56:37

2215

56:39

where he's imagined this futuristic uh

56:41

space um that that comes out of changes

56:45

due to

56:46

climate uh

56:48

problems climate change and you see it

56:50

in you know thousands of years bc you

56:53

see um just how it so all of the

56:57

so not only are you learning about how

56:58

the earth and our relationship with it

57:01

has evolved over time but it brings in

57:03

questions about population change

57:05

gentrification um uh architecture how

57:09

does that how does the house itself

57:11

change and evolve over these decades um

57:14

what was there before what was there

57:16

before the before and then to extend

57:19

that imagination to what could be there

57:22

in 200 more years if you had to draw

57:24

those pages at the end where mcguire

57:27

envisions this kind of post-apocalyptic

57:29

world um what what would you

57:32

just the possibilities are endless and

57:34

when we talk about doing more

57:36

with one text doing everything with one

57:39

text this is really

57:41

the kind that i think this medium

57:45

uh offers you to be able to do that

57:48

um i'm gonna really quick talk about two

57:50

that are kind of on opposite ends of the

57:51

spectrum the first is a manga volume i

57:53

just picked up on a whim just recently

57:54

called my brain is different which is

57:56

like nine short non-fiction chapters

57:59

based off of the author interviewing um

58:01

people with developmental disorders

58:02

things like adhd or depression or who

58:04

are on the autism spectrum and also like

58:07

the first chapter is about the author

58:08

themselves discovering oh i have adult

58:09

adhd that's never been diagnosed and

58:11

it's also it's also kind of a look at

58:13

the japanese health care system and

58:14

about how zappy society

58:16

uh at least in this portrayal response

58:18

to individuals who have different who

58:20

are not neurotypical um

58:22

and it's i mean it's extremely clear and

58:24

crisp and well illustrated it expresses

58:26

a lot of emotion despite being very very

58:28

simple

58:29

um and i've really been thoroughly

58:31

enjoying it on the opposite of the

58:32

spectrum though i really want to

58:33

recommend dungeon critters by natalie

58:35

reese and sarah gettner because that has

58:39

this incredible visual style and if you

58:41

want to talk about like you know

58:42

exaggerated figures and how you can use

58:44

the word bullets to convey emotion and

58:46

like just layouts and everything

58:47

visually it's just a feast it's

58:49

incredibly good it would also be great

58:50

for excerpts because it's very it's also

58:52

very chapter based but um yeah those two

58:54

are some of the some of the favorite

58:55

comics i've had this year

58:58

um really fast i love comics that

59:01

completely upset the form if you want

59:03

something that's just bizarre mr

59:04

invincible is fantastic it's where the

59:07

panels no longer his superpower is that

59:10

he is not bound by the panels and so he

59:12

can therefore defeat people um by

59:14

upsetting the very nature of the comic

59:16

itself it will blow your mind another

59:19

mind blower meanwhile uh where it is um

59:23

maybe more of a math and physics uh book

59:25

in some ways but it's just so much fun

59:27

and it has so many possibilities because

59:29

it has all these tabs that you can

59:30

follow to different possibilities it's

59:32

like choose your own adventure if choose

59:34

your own adventure was about physics

59:38

um i'm just like nuts over kind of

59:40

everything um but i have to say lately

59:43

i've been having real a lot of fun with

59:45

things like the world citizen comics

59:47

where families

59:49

are reading and discussing it of all

59:50

ages

59:52

like stargazing clash

59:54

clash and other things like that um i i

59:58

think they're just so many possibilities

1:00:00

with the 7 200 books published every

1:00:03

year i'm so glad that a higher

1:00:04

percentage of them are of them for youth

1:00:07

i'm so glad that a higher percentage of

1:00:09

graphic novels and i delight with the

1:00:12

fact that we get new graphic novels

1:00:14

available every week

1:00:16

and so whether they're from three four

1:00:18

three year olds or 103 or 113 year olds

1:00:22

there's so many different so many

1:00:24

different things and i think the fall is

1:00:26

looking really really exciting

1:00:28

um for some new titles but

1:00:31

there are some great old ones as well

1:00:34

all right thank you everyone we're at

1:00:36

time i'll just reiterate for our

1:00:38

attendees

1:00:40

we'll we'll take a little time to

1:00:41

research and make sure that we have full

1:00:43

bibliographic information for all the

1:00:44

books that have been held up ever so

1:00:46

briefly or discussed in the chat or

1:00:48

elsewhere and we'll get that along with

1:00:50

the reporting out to you in a day or so

1:00:52

in the meantime you can go to

1:00:55

learnerbooks.com

1:00:57

graphic novel webinar and we already

1:01:00

have a book list posted there for

1:01:01

everything that was submitted ahead of

1:01:03

time either by panelists or

1:01:05

by

1:01:06

the folks who registered to attend the

1:01:08

webinar so there's a lot of books there

1:01:09

already

1:01:10

60 or so but we'll have more and we'll

1:01:12

send that out um maybe tomorrow maybe at

1:01:15

the beginning of next week depending on

1:01:16

how quick we get through this research i

1:01:18

just want to say say thank you again so

1:01:19

much to our panelists for this really

1:01:21

great discussion i hope you all enjoyed

1:01:23

it as much as i did i've been

1:01:24

frantically ordering books from my

1:01:25

library um as we've been going along and

1:01:29

thank you so much for your time have a

1:01:30

great rest of your

1:01:36

day you