0:00

Hello friends.

0:02

Michael Gungor here. So

0:06

Lisa and I did an interview

0:09

with our friend Audrey Assad a

0:11

couple weeks ago in

0:14

anticipation of the release of our new

0:16

record that came out. eleven

0:18

eleven. It's called love song to life. I hope

0:20

you've hope you've been able to listen

0:22

to it.

0:25

And I would like to explore some of

0:28

some of it musically more

0:31

and and even thematically me on

0:33

the podcast, but haven't been able to make it yet.

0:35

All my energies have

0:38

been going into getting

0:40

the music out into the world, and

0:43

it finally's out, and

0:46

I'm tired. So I haven't

0:48

been able to make any podcast lately. but

0:51

thought I would share this podcast that Audrey

0:53

made. Audrey, as some of

0:55

you may remember, was part

0:57

of the group that made

1:00

the last season of the liters podcast,

1:02

the non dual Christian season.

1:06

She's an amazing artist and

1:10

thinker and beautiful

1:12

person. So

1:14

I hope you enjoy this interview that

1:16

she did for us and

1:20

check out her stuff at audreyesat

1:22

dot com.

1:51

This

1:51

is Audrey Asad. Today,

1:53

I'm chatting with Michael and Lisa Gungor of

1:55

the band Gungor about their new album

1:57

which comes out on November eleventh.

2:00

That's right. That's eleven eleven

2:01

for all you number people. We

2:03

discuss everything from non

2:05

duality to some rather

2:08

unconventional percussion instruments that

2:10

were used in the creation of this astounded

2:12

music. The songs are scattered

2:14

throughout this interview so that you can get a taste of

2:16

what they are about to unleash on the unsuspecting

2:18

world. Without

2:19

further ado, I hope you enjoyed

2:22

my conversation.

2:22

this gonger.

2:29

How would I want to conduct this?

2:31

Because I'm not I'm not a professional

2:33

Interview. I'm not Audrey Gross.

2:35

I'm not known

2:37

for doing this, but I felt

2:39

so compelled to say, hey, like, can

2:42

we have a conversation when you tweeted

2:44

out Michael that you were looking for,

2:46

you

2:46

know, opportunities to talk about

2:49

the record. Looking for attention. I'm just looking for

2:51

attention. Yeah. You're looking for

2:53

An approval.

2:54

Yeah. Want people to apply

2:57

and and it made me really happy

2:59

to offer something. I was like, I could give that.

3:01

Yeah. Well, yeah. So

3:03

I was thinking about, like, how how do I wanna do this?

3:05

You know? How do I how does one interview

3:07

the hologram known as Gungor

3:11

exactly. And

3:13

so I decided

3:14

that I

3:17

would start by reading your Wikipedia intro

3:19

to

3:19

you. Interesting choice. Interesting choice.

3:21

Because

3:21

because I thought to myself,

3:25

like, I'm

3:26

just diving right in here. If if Gungor

3:28

is a is a story

3:29

that our egos are making up in somewhat,

3:31

you know. mixed with

3:33

the essence of both of you as beings.

3:36

the I thought it'd be

3:38

cool to look at, like, crowdsourced linear

3:41

information

3:41

yeah

3:42

on the fractal of God that is

3:44

your

3:44

band. So Wonderful.

3:46

What does it look like through that frac? fractal?

3:49

Yeah.

3:49

We can start there and it gave

3:51

it let it gave rise to several questions

3:53

actually for me. So I

3:56

wanted to start with this. So for listening

3:58

who is not familiar with

3:59

Gungor, you're about to find out what the Interview

4:02

believes about it. Interesting. And

4:05

the do

4:06

So, Gungor

4:07

is a musical collective, formed

4:10

by husband and wife duo, Michael Gunther, and Lisa

4:12

Gunther. The group's music has been compared

4:14

to the music of Sutheon Stevens, Bonewear,

4:17

and arcade fire, not too shabby.

4:19

Oh my god. Oh my god. I

4:22

know. Oh my ago. The

4:24

band has released the band has

4:26

released seven studio albums, the

4:28

last one appearing in March of twenty nineteen.

4:30

These albums explored a broad musical

4:33

soundscape and chartered the couple's changing

4:35

beliefs from traditional Christianity through

4:37

a more pan and theist stick WorldView.

4:39

Not Amphastick. Interview. Amphastick.

4:42

Hang on, please. I had to

4:44

Google it. Other religions

4:46

and apathetic

4:47

theology, which we'll get to because

4:49

I have

4:50

some things to ask and say about that.

4:53

In early twenty eighteen, they announced

4:55

the shift in direct that would see Gungor return

4:57

to the progressive spiritual space whilst

4:59

the less the less mainstream material.

5:02

We got a team. We got an s team

5:04

that was just good to say that. I

5:06

was like, wait. Wilt's Wilt's. Yeah.

5:08

Wilt's. Wilt's. Yeah. That was a bread that

5:11

wilt's. I I actually added

5:13

that.

5:13

It says wild. You I

5:15

added a wild phone. Oh, okay. I'm

5:17

sorry. I was excited that that was in

5:19

there.

5:19

Yeah. I'm sorry. No. I'm sorry.

5:22

Maybe I'll get logged in into with the VPN

5:24

change. it

5:24

or you know, it's just better and

5:26

better. While

5:27

while the less mainstream

5:30

material will move to other

5:32

projects, including my Michael and Michael.

5:34

Sorry. Michael and Lisa's solo projects.

5:37

So that was the intro to your Wikipedia

5:39

page and then there was

5:40

other sections of

5:42

your history.

5:43

Yeah. You knew Crazy

5:45

your history. wrote that.

5:47

How about that? If they care.

5:49

And

5:49

then yeah. I've never done

5:51

that. I

5:52

care a lot about people, and I've I've

5:54

never done that, and I don't think I ever will.

5:57

I think that, well, I know for a fact that there

5:59

are people who just care about Wikipedia

6:01

existing. And so they do

6:04

I I've met with someone once who

6:07

specializes in updating Musicians pages.

6:09

You can't pay him to do that because it's

6:11

illegal, but if

6:13

he's interested in working on your page, he'll

6:15

contact you and ask you questions, and then he'll

6:17

back check everything and go through

6:19

news

6:19

articles. Legal based on Wikipedia's laws,

6:22

I assume. not the law.

6:23

Yeah. It's just it's not supposed

6:25

to be able to be influenced by

6:27

the person who's

6:28

being written on the check. Right? Interesting.

6:29

So it's supposed to be Wiki is

6:32

sort of

6:32

Right? Like, modern slang for

6:35

crowdsourced. So it's crowdsourced

6:37

by graphical material. Oh.

6:39

You

6:39

can be part of it. You just can't be the one

6:41

updating it. And if you pay him to do it, then

6:43

you might as well be doing it yourself. Right.

6:46

Makes sense. So anyway, your Wikipedia

6:48

page led me Google Pen and Theism

6:51

because I've heard of Pen Theism,

6:52

which is basically all

6:54

all gods, all beings are gods, and

6:57

all

6:58

beings are god and god is all beings.

7:00

Whereas, pan and theism is

7:02

apparently

7:04

teaching that the universe lives

7:07

within God, but that God is

7:09

nevertheless somehow transcended and

7:11

separate from it in some way. Yep.

7:13

Yep.

7:14

Oh. I had to Google that as well because someone

7:16

asked me, they were like, oh, so you're a pen and thiism.

7:18

I was like Well, what are you asking? I

7:20

was like, oh, I

7:22

don't even know. Right?

7:24

It's interesting. So I found out

7:26

that you were apparently pen and theists

7:29

today on Wikipedia, but I was curious,

7:31

a, is that true?

7:32

And b, I thought that

7:35

it would be fun for everyone if we also

7:37

talk about apathy apathetic theology,

7:39

but not for too long. I just I

7:41

remember I wonder if that statement's ever

7:43

been made. I think it'll be fun for everyone

7:46

if we talked about episodic ideology.

7:48

It's been It's

7:49

the first time, and there's another one

7:51

that I wanna share with you. Another

7:53

sentence that I

7:54

know has never been uttered in here in this case. Okay.

7:56

It's not the one texting. So I have no.

8:00

No. because

8:00

I've rather that one before. But

8:02

I

8:03

have an award to present you. Do

8:06

you

8:06

wanna know what it is? I do. Oh my

8:08

god.

8:09

It's the best use of the

8:11

phrase apathetic mystic

8:13

in a pen and theistic slash

8:15

maybe pantheistic

8:16

musical context.

8:23

It's not a serious award ceremony. No.

8:26

No. No. They use, like, Cassios and

8:28

stuff because it's not a What off?

8:30

And here it's right here. This

8:32

is it.

8:33

I'm gonna mail it to you. Thank you. Thank you.

8:35

I would like to thank the Academy.

8:39

And my Lord and savior My

8:41

heart is Oh, thank you. Pan

8:43

Epiastic. Jesus Christ.

8:46

What

8:46

if Jesus just came down? I was like, you're

8:47

welcome. Who is not not my my

8:50

who is not not the savior of the world?

8:52

Oh, my

8:53

Exactly. He's not an honor. This is the second conversation

8:55

we've had about this though today because we did

8:57

a live really live Instagram

8:59

deal and someone asked about.

9:01

What is that? I love I love it. It's

9:03

one of my favorite ways to think,

9:06

and

9:06

I happened to know the term when you did

9:08

use it in a song. But I was like, and

9:10

my head did a double take because I heard it come

9:13

over the speakers. I was like, I

9:15

just heard air you die, and now I'm

9:17

hearing apnea like

9:19

beautiful, meditative melody

9:22

and fell in love

9:24

with that album which was called IAMOUNT,

9:26

if anyone here has not. thank

9:28

you. that. Please go look at it and say,

9:30

like, pop lyrics

9:31

or your

9:32

dad. Yeah. So I wanted to

9:34

read that, and then that will lead me into

9:35

my questions. for Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

9:38

Now, this

9:38

is hilarious, but I don't have my prescription

9:40

glasses. I only have my prescription sunglasses,

9:42

so I am

9:42

Yes. You

9:45

read this. Oh, yeah. Okay. So

9:49

are you know

9:53

Looking.

9:55

Yeah. Right. You have your the glasses. You

9:57

just wanted to wear them. No. Just looking

9:59

rocking

9:59

and Oh my god. So

10:02

email. Alright. So

10:03

this is from a song called Long Way Off, which

10:05

was released in two thousand thirteen, if I'm

10:07

not

10:07

mistaken. Is that right? Oh, where sunglasses

10:10

now?

10:11

classes like We really need beat mix or something. You

10:13

just

10:13

need sun in your face because these are

10:16

transition lips.

10:20

Total. Two bright ring lights and just

10:22

get a very bright ring light, you

10:24

know. Alright. Go ahead. Sorry. Keep it updated.

10:26

So

10:26

So a long way off was released

10:28

in twenty thirteen. Right?

10:30

Correct.

10:31

the Okay.

10:33

So this is the Lyric.

10:35

to which made very tiny at its for sake

10:37

of

10:37

brevity, but it's basically exactly

10:40

this. So the smartest

10:41

men they built a rocket,

10:44

aimed it at a target far, far

10:46

away. But by the time they knew

10:48

they lost it, it was a long

10:50

way.

10:50

We're a long way off. The

10:52

smartest men, they saw a world with

10:54

corners and endings far,

10:55

far away. But when they drew it

10:57

out and searched it, they were a long

10:59

way. We are a long way off.

11:01

The

11:01

airy diet composed of thesis. Everything

11:04

we see is all

11:05

there is. But as

11:06

an apathetic mystic, we are

11:09

a

11:09

long way off. When

11:11

the waves of time wash the shores, stark

11:13

clean of the memories, the

11:15

last of me, with my castles gone

11:17

to the constancy, Will

11:19

you stay with me? Mhmm.

11:21

That's nice.

11:23

Yes. Really special.

11:25

And I hope that felt good to hear

11:27

because I think hearing your lyrics

11:28

back to and years later. It is fun,

11:31

actually.

11:31

Yeah. Even like as we've been on Instagram

11:33

listening to the albums, it's like it's

11:36

wild how some of the things

11:38

that I didn't really know

11:40

I

11:40

believed or thought or,

11:42

like, holy.

11:43

We're, like, making their way in the lyrics and

11:45

in the songs.

11:46

yeah,

11:47

you get to see your evolution in

11:50

flow and in

11:51

process versus your take on it

11:53

from a, like, linear

11:55

thought perspective, thinking back.

11:58

It's

11:58

cool to hear where you were at that

11:59

moment.

12:01

Yeah. And having known you both quite quite a

12:04

long time now, I think

12:06

it's really special to kind

12:09

of know a little bit

12:11

about your journeys and your experiences as

12:13

people and then hear

12:14

your songs. and

12:15

get to synthesize my experience

12:18

of you with

12:20

both. It's very special. I'm so glad

12:22

you guys do what you do.

12:24

Andrew? Thank you, Audrey. How about what you do

12:26

too? Oh,

12:27

thank you. Okay.

12:30

So I

12:32

listened to most of the

12:34

new songs you sent me and fell in love

12:38

with, like, the sort of

12:39

what felt very kaleidoscopic and

12:41

polyrhythmic in a lot of

12:43

moments. It felt like AAA

12:45

dance

12:47

worship pan

12:48

and theistic slash

12:51

pantheistic as well sort

12:53

of, like,

12:54

both. I hear that. I hear both things in

12:56

your music a lot. Mhmm. Sort of this

12:58

is Zoom out perspective of sort of all

13:00

being one and then a zoom

13:02

in

13:02

of we are here experiencing

13:04

life with shadow and light. And

13:07

yes and

13:07

no, and good and bad, and all of those things.

13:11

And,

13:11

and yeah, so

13:12

I just I would love to

13:15

know what when was was there a

13:17

moment? When you

13:18

began composing for this record and you

13:21

knew it? Like, you were like, where

13:23

I am sitting down to start this

13:25

album? Or was it a

13:27

situation where the songs were

13:29

already flowering out of the ground and you picked

13:31

them specifically for this

13:33

project. I wanna hear about

13:35

that and where

13:35

it all began for you when you knew, like,

13:37

we're making this. This is

13:39

the album we're making. How did that happen?

13:41

Well, I'm

13:43

kind of I've got, like, lots of

13:46

songs

13:46

always going in my computer.

13:48

And

13:49

most of the time, I would say,

13:52

I'm not going this is I'm going

13:54

to sit down for this project.

13:57

Even if we're in the middle of a project,

13:58

I

13:59

I

13:59

usually don't I kinda, like, try to let

14:02

it live

14:03

before the the

14:05

evaluator starts doing anything with

14:07

it. just

14:08

on its own as much as possible, like

14:10

right at the beginning, just like, what is this? What

14:12

do you wanna be? It's almost like just the birth

14:14

of this new little life. and sometimes, like, well,

14:16

this isn't for this record, but maybe it'll end up being

14:18

on something else.

14:20

So

14:21

I I don't

14:23

Yeah.

14:23

It's very rare. There's been a

14:25

couple sessions that I can think of in the past

14:27

on other records. I don't think it was any on

14:29

this record. It was like, we gotta write

14:32

us on for this record. Let's sit down and write

14:34

us on for this record.

14:35

That's just not usually help. It's usually

14:38

very, like,

14:38

organic and

14:40

Well, here's a

14:40

little idea that just came through me right now. I'm gonna go

14:42

throw it down the studio, and let's see what happens.

14:44

Do

14:46

you this

14:47

is random, but it's encouraging me to ask

14:49

you both.

14:51

Are you particularly

14:51

structured people around creative

14:54

practice at all? Or is it a is it a

14:55

goal? It's flow moment moment to moment

14:58

thing that you both engage in, or is it

15:00

different for both of you? It's

15:01

more so been just moment to moment and

15:03

for me, just

15:05

vision it.

15:05

But I did I did recently do, like,

15:07

a two week dance

15:09

where I was like, I'm gonna come up with, like, an

15:11

idea every day and and

15:13

post it because it's just

15:15

not my normal thing. And it

15:17

was it was hard. It's like I would sit down

15:19

at the piano and would be like, Nothing.

15:21

I nothing I

15:22

wanna say. This is business

15:24

of

15:25

Did that bring up any unsecurities or

15:28

frustrations?

15:28

Yeah. Yeah.

15:31

It well, even just

15:33

posting about it, really, I was doing

15:35

it because I felt insecure about

15:37

posting things that were, like, in process

15:39

or oh,

15:40

like, it

15:40

weren't,

15:42

yeah,

15:43

well hushed out or well written. And

15:45

it was just like, this is this is just what it

15:47

is. So after posting, I

15:49

would feel a lot of insecurity come up that

15:51

was like, oh, that wasn't good enough or I should have done

15:53

this or just my face being on a video.

15:55

felt -- Mhmm. -- but I really

15:58

I really enjoyed the practice

15:59

of having a structure instead of just

16:02

waiting for inspiration

16:03

to hit it

16:04

was nice to be like, alright. This is what I'm

16:06

doing and whatever. Just practicing not

16:09

being

16:10

perfectionistic about about it.

16:12

Not

16:13

really nice. Yeah.

16:15

And for

16:15

me, I I

16:17

I'm pretty

16:17

structured, actually, more than

16:19

you might because

16:21

I go to I just work every day

16:23

during office hours. So Yeah.

16:26

If I

16:27

have other more urgent

16:29

things on my to do list other than making music, which

16:31

is a lot, especially these days.

16:33

the Host

16:34

recording it now. It's like getting it

16:36

released. Now most of my day is not creating

16:38

it music. But unless

16:40

I

16:41

just go into

16:43

the studio and then I just work

16:45

I won't

16:45

work day.

16:46

Oh,

16:48

conventional. It is. I'm like, I'm a Not

16:50

much. that too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

16:52

I mean, pretty much, you know.

16:55

more

16:55

like eleven to four, if I'm

16:58

honest, but something like that.

17:00

Yeah. So

17:02

I I noticed that

17:04

in this

17:06

the scope

17:07

of this album, there are several places where

17:10

you take

17:11

religious

17:12

phrases or names

17:14

and turn them into

17:17

syllabic chants that are the

17:19

name, but not exactly or

17:21

the word,

17:21

but not exactly. And

17:23

so, for example,

17:26

that

17:27

with the word, Aluya, in

17:29

one song, which might be

17:30

my favorite one. Aluya?

17:33

Mhmm. Cool. Yeah. That's

17:35

pretty effervescent and,

17:37

actually,

17:37

as fuck, and very spiritual, which I

17:40

just really love.

17:42

But

17:42

and then also with

17:45

yahweh, the name the Hebrew name of God

17:47

that was, I believe, said,

17:49

you know, not

17:49

to be uttered -- Yeah. --

17:52

without certain, like, ceremonial reference

17:54

for the uttering of

17:55

the name. And I remember

17:57

you tweeting a while

17:58

back, Michael, about whether or saw a

17:59

song, like, months and months ago about

18:02

this, about whether or not a song

18:04

should say the

18:05

name -- -- in some those minds or should

18:07

we should it be syllabic and an invitation,

18:09

a

18:09

stipulation, that's the name, let's

18:12

say. And so, yeah, I wanna hear more about

18:14

that process. Were you already in process of writing

18:16

that song making that decision and want to

18:17

It was already recorded as y'all way.

18:19

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

18:21

Yeah. because it started off, like, mean,

18:23

in some of these, like, the the

18:26

Yahoo! and hallelujah was kinda

18:28

interesting. How they were both

18:29

came from

18:30

a similar place that was, like, well, everything

18:32

just is that

18:33

everything that is

18:36

happening is this,

18:37

hallelujah or yay. So, yeah, the

18:39

whole thing was recorded.

18:41

And then You had read

18:43

somewhere that it was often

18:45

to

18:46

speak. Because so in

18:47

trying to create something that was inclusive for

18:50

everyone, any of

18:51

the changes. It

18:52

was a really it was a tough choice for me

18:55

because I'm hum

18:57

i'm you

18:58

know, if you follow you do follow me on Twitter so you know, I'm

19:00

not afraid of offending necessarily. You're

19:02

a little iconoclastic

19:03

iconoclast

19:04

iconoclastic vibes for sure.

19:07

I'm I'm I'm I'm happy to

19:10

offend if I need to.

19:12

But this

19:12

I'm like, one thing

19:14

I find value. I actually

19:16

would eventually like to do a record that's

19:18

only names of God from different traditions and stuff.

19:20

I think that'd be fun. And

19:23

I think there's something interesting and powerful about

19:25

just chanting a name of

19:27

God. But

19:28

because it I

19:29

was reading the perspective of some Jewish

19:31

people who just it really is

19:33

a especially from

19:35

like a Christian heritage.

19:37

It's like Christians took their

19:39

name, their word.

19:41

And

19:42

So it's I was, like,

19:44

with the little, like, colonial

19:46

piece, like -- Mhmm. -- it just kinda

19:48

pushed it over the edge to, like, okay.

19:51

I'll let if if the there's

19:53

a lot of Jira's people saying, this is our

19:55

word, stop saying it.

19:56

them even

19:58

though I don't I think, ultimately, as

20:01

a technology to name Yahoo!

20:03

is

20:03

potentially a powerful spiritual

20:06

technology to use and to chant,

20:08

this

20:09

Yeah. That was my

20:10

mixture. So going with Yahoo! kind

20:13

of a feel free to sing

20:15

Yahoo! if you'd like. I'm

20:17

gonna be respectful of our Jewish brothers and

20:20

sisters over the

20:20

public recording of it. But it's

20:22

-- Yeah. -- the the truth

20:25

of it, to

20:25

me, like, what's powerful about even the name of

20:27

y'all. Wait. If it's tied to breath, which is kinda what

20:29

that song is about, is,

20:31

like, just let it remind you of your breath. Like, actually,

20:33

just feel your body right now. Let

20:35

let a mantra bring you into your breath

20:37

and your breathing more than

20:39

a name that's represented up about

20:41

being in your head. You know,

20:42

just get your meaning I

20:52

love that. Well,

20:55

I have to

20:58

tell

20:59

you I

21:00

think the interpolation of the name is actually

21:02

really powerful because

21:05

it's it

21:07

for me, as an ex

21:10

well, III don't know,

21:11

to speak in very dualistic terms as

21:13

an

21:13

ex Christian or a post Christian

21:16

or a whatever, you

21:18

know, right

21:18

today, twenty twenty two.

21:21

I find

21:24

names like that to be still

21:26

a little tricky to

21:28

sink. Mhmm. And, like, thing things

21:31

concepts I I want to embrace, but maybe

21:33

have a hard time because I still carry some

21:35

charge

21:35

about them

21:36

and I'm still working through

21:39

whatever that is because, ideally,

21:41

maybe in my own fantasy,

21:42

I just except all truth with

21:44

an open arm and an open heart,

21:46

like equally no matter where it comes from and

21:48

that's what

21:49

I aspire too, but I'm still, like,

21:51

on the journey. So when I heard it,

21:54

I thought, oh, it feels really

21:56

nice to, like,

21:58

be

21:58

almost, like, politically, metaphorically

22:02

referencing this without

22:04

actually uttering it at felt

22:06

really good to me. I really enjoyed that about

22:08

it. Mhmm. It's kinda striking. And it

22:10

does remind me of breath because of the way you're singing

22:12

it. Mhmm. Really has

22:15

that h sound, hey, so you know

22:17

that. Yeah. And I think that that's really

22:18

effective for whatever it's worth. Cool.

22:20

I really loved that about it. Yeah.

22:22

And we at the beginning well, throughout it,

22:24

I think even, you know, we were, like, just

22:26

doing that breath going.

22:30

Yeah. Yeah. Just making it sound like this very effortless.

22:32

Like, this is just the flow

22:34

-- Really? -- and this

22:35

is just the life

22:35

happening. So making it

22:38

I I like that as well. I like that it didn't

22:40

direct, like, yay, because it feels a

22:42

little bit more like a little bit

22:44

more like glassyalia.

22:46

Yeah.

22:46

Oh, I love that. It

22:49

felt that way to me

22:49

too. And And

22:52

kinda same thing with

22:52

all of the way. Like,

22:55

There's something

22:55

about saying the full hallelujah

22:58

that all of a sudden it feels like we're in church and it feels

23:00

like an old but just playing

23:02

with syllables and that was kind

23:04

of but

23:05

syllables that are kind of pointing at maybe something.

23:08

Yeah.

23:08

That's cool. I

23:10

love that

23:10

one. I felt such exuberance

23:12

in it and

23:15

kind

23:15

of spirit the word -- Yeah. -- of

23:17

celebration and praise and sort

23:20

of like

23:22

I don't

23:22

know. I've sung that word a million times, and

23:24

I would say that I don't know if

23:26

it ever felt completely natural to

23:29

be like, I'll

23:30

let you know. I

23:33

know. Right. I've never felt natural.

23:35

But crisis isn't. It's very

23:37

normal. Yeah. I'm like, it doesn't

23:39

mean anything to me in my cultural

23:41

context except for -- Okay. -- I know

23:43

that

23:43

this is what it means. I've been told this, but it's not

23:45

a word we go around saying. I would try to

23:47

I would try to sometimes. You know, never and

23:51

Okay. Yeah. Me too, you

23:52

know. And I was, like, I

23:55

I

23:55

like the idea of interpolation. It made

23:57

me think about that concept here.

23:59

It's not

24:02

yet

24:02

to to to interpolate a concept like

24:04

that or a name like that and into a

24:07

into something that is

24:10

just enough away far enough

24:12

away from the original name

24:14

or word that it doesn't

24:16

retain the

24:17

charge. the same. Yeah. Yeah.

24:19

But it enters into the spirit of that

24:21

word. And I And, yeah, and nods to that. Odds

24:23

to the spirit and the meaning of

24:25

and bite and bite sit in the spirit. I love that. Yeah.

24:27

And I like that, I love it too. Yeah.

24:30

You got it too. I love

24:48

Little

24:49

little side story for you, Audrey.

24:51

Does this show, like, you and people like how

24:54

far Michael Husqvist. The

24:56

way we met, I would say,

24:58

hallelujah, like, as a joke. I

24:59

would

25:00

be like, Nice to meet you, hallelujah

25:02

or something like that. It's

25:04

like, fended. I

25:05

was a bit offended. He was offended that I

25:07

would joke about the word hallelujah. Yeah.

25:09

Hang.

25:09

That is interesting because

25:11

that's about as far from

25:12

iconic classic as you can get.

25:16

It's

25:16

not even like a name of God. It's just

25:18

like a No worries. No worries. for

25:21

Yay. You're like, don't say Yay in

25:23

that language. That's a privilege. It

25:25

was a little

25:28

more upside. A little more upside

25:31

back then. way more. Oh my

25:32

god. But he's like oh,

25:35

yeah. He's like, what do you think about it? Did you say you're

25:37

making notes? Did you stop saying

25:39

it? you say

25:40

did you stop saying it? No. I was

25:41

like, we'll get to it. to free up the upside,

25:44

guys. I was like

25:46

whispering hallelujah to people.

25:48

I just thought it was so funny. That

25:50

was

25:50

funny. That was so

25:51

funny when people were just like, oh, Lewey. I

25:53

was like, wow. I was like,

25:56

Yeah.

25:56

So, oldly, a problem.

25:58

Yeah. I wasn't like I needed,

26:00

like, got

26:00

around me. Yeah. Yeah. Oh,

26:02

yeah. I'm so sorry for that. Keep forgetting.

26:05

can't forget to have to hold this one. I

26:07

was just thinking that. I was like, can

26:09

you

26:09

move? You're a you're a

26:12

singer. You're a that's what you're

26:14

doing for a job. god. We make

26:15

we make Just you Yeah.

26:18

Yeah. You're just being your own compressor. That's

26:20

fine. You're good. Hi,

26:22

everyone. Oh, it's all good.

26:25

When did you meet each other? What year was

26:27

that? That's none of your business.

26:30

Nineteen ninety

26:30

eight. Nineteen ninety eight. Nineteen

26:34

ninety eight. A good year. A good year. A good year. That was

26:36

really ninety eight. Nineteen ninety

26:39

eight. old? Okay. I

26:41

was fifteen and nineteen ninety eight.

26:42

So how old were you guys? It's

26:45

female. Okay.

26:46

So you met eighteen years old,

26:48

you know, legally, free to

26:51

marry. Audrey and took

26:52

advantage of that loss. last year. On the

26:54

market. Yes. On the

26:57

mark it. And you okay. I wanna see

26:59

I wanna see the scene of your meeting.

27:01

I want you to describe

27:02

this to me. So I was at

27:04

No. Go ahead.

27:05

not upsetting. I was a medical

27:07

I was gonna act it out, and then I realized it

27:09

wouldn't do good on the podcast, but you

27:11

should describe it with words. I'll be

27:12

it'll be on you too, but that's it.

27:14

Okay. So I'm not I'm not a pay phone.

27:17

Okay. So I'm

27:17

here at the pay phone. I'm here. You

27:19

got you walked behind me. I'm here.

27:21

I'm

27:21

hanging up the same phone talking to my mom,

27:24

and

27:24

am I'm leaving

27:25

for music

27:26

rehearsal for church.

27:27

Okay. Turnaround.

27:28

he and his best friend,

27:31

Dan Eller

27:31

who I had met a year previous --

27:33

I was doing this job. -- on a mission

27:36

job. Oh my god. Oh

27:38

my gosh. And I remember that, yeah, they're shaking it. Yeah. He was like,

27:40

ugh. It's

27:42

on stankface dancing right now for

27:44

anyone who can't see this.

27:47

And his friend introduced us, and I thought

27:49

his friend was kind of weird, so I was

27:51

not

27:51

interested in meeting them very

27:53

much. But

27:54

I he he

27:57

really locked eyes with me.

27:58

I did. Wow.

27:59

I

27:59

invited her to go

28:01

pancakes at

28:02

my mom's house. That was later.

28:03

That was a different day. Oh, it

28:06

was the same day? Same day. Oh, it

28:07

was just like you you left, and

28:10

then I

28:10

was like, oh, I should've, like, asked her to

28:12

do something. And then I saw you in the parking lot again. I

28:14

was like, oh, you wanna go to my mom's house?

28:17

panketics. That's fake. I know.

28:19

No. As she should have that. Well, that's a bad there's

28:22

a bad invite. It's not

28:24

a sexy invite. It

28:26

it was it was it would have been

28:27

fine, but at that point in my life, I was I

28:29

was pretty over

28:30

the guys at the University we were at

28:32

and this oral Roberts University.

28:36

and

28:36

it had some very strange interactions.

28:38

I bet.

28:39

I was I was done. I was like, no.

28:41

Thanks. That's a podcast for another day, but

28:43

I'd love to have that discussion.

28:45

However,

28:46

I did say to myself,

28:48

Audrey, don't make this whole

28:51

conversation about religion

28:53

because boring.

28:54

It's not real. Oh, come on. I mean, it's doing

28:56

No. No. For what's interesting to you? What's

28:59

alive? What's alive in Newodry?

29:01

Oh,

29:01

and me? Yeah. What's what's the

29:04

curiosities we can go

29:05

there?

29:07

Where to begin? You're not supposed

29:09

to be interviewing me. I

29:13

I will

29:14

save that answer. or a

29:16

text -- Okay. -- after this conversation,

29:18

but thank you for asking.

29:21

I

29:22

yeah. Let me pull my notes back up.

29:24

I'm editing that out. Okay.

29:30

So I wanna talk about

29:31

non

29:33

duality.

29:33

Mhmm. Okay? Which is akin

29:35

to a religious concept, but

29:38

one of the

29:38

reasons I wanna talk about is because I want

29:41

to know what kind of role

29:43

this

29:43

type of thinking plays in your creation

29:45

process and

29:46

in your work. And

29:48

to introduce

29:50

that topic, I wanna I wrote down

29:52

something that happened on Twitter the other

29:54

day. Don't worry. It's lovely.

29:56

I hey

29:59

you

29:59

tweeted

29:59

this the other day. Have any of you fully seen

30:02

through the illusion of a separate quote

30:04

self? unquote, yet maintained

30:06

or adopted religious language

30:08

and creeds that make an important

30:11

ontological distinction

30:12

between creator and creation.

30:14

And

30:14

if so, why? As usual?

30:16

There was a lot

30:18

of requests and I

30:22

mean Yeah. She won't How's

30:24

your mind doing? I'm like,

30:26

that's exactly what I'm

30:27

thinking about on Tuesday night. Yeah.

30:29

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean,

30:32

I think about that all the time. Am

30:34

I doing that in, like,

30:36

my new age

30:38

you

30:38

know -- Right. -- you

30:40

know, eastern fog that I've

30:42

-- Mhmm. -- sort of been in for

30:44

a few years. I'm I I'm

30:46

finding myself asking myself would

30:49

some

30:49

structure and, like, some order and

30:51

some linearness help me

30:54

like

30:54

feel better and thrive in life and maybe not

30:56

be so lost in the

30:59

existential fog of

31:01

wondering that I seem to find myself in so much. So

31:03

I love

31:04

this question. And

31:07

someone who I've never

31:08

met named you'll probably

31:11

remember this,

31:11

Britain Vanderbrush because if

31:13

you would forget that amazing name.

31:15

Yeah. He's a good friend now. Yeah.

31:17

Britain wrote, I've been beyond

31:19

and I come back saying,

31:22

quote,

31:22

all that is

31:23

is the eternal I am knowing

31:26

it. to not be

31:27

separate from me. But then there

31:28

is a sweetness to devotion that keeps me

31:31

wanting to love duality. I'd rather

31:33

look at you and hold your hand and just sit

31:35

here knowing we are one.

31:44

And

31:44

I have to say that stopped me in my tracks, you

31:46

know, that type I I it's something

31:48

I've it's it's an idea

31:50

that I've heard stated, you know, that

31:53

sort of the SKURA, the black and white,

31:55

the shadow, and the lighter, what make us have

31:57

an experience. Mhmm. That yeah. Well,

31:59

there

31:59

is no experience without a

32:02

sense of something. Mhmm. And so that takes

32:05

duality to have. And so that's the

32:07

big bang and access into,

32:09

you know, in that myth, the big bang

32:11

and access everything into

32:13

separateness. Mhmm. And now it was all coming back

32:15

together and organizing. Well,

32:17

Yeah.

32:18

How do you think about that

32:21

now, both of you, as people, like in

32:23

your own life, what role

32:25

does non duality and the idea of

32:27

all being won play in your

32:29

sanity, in your scheduling, in

32:31

your discussions,

32:34

your relationships, and your creativity.

32:36

Do you find yourself? Yeah.

32:38

I

32:39

don't know. I'm curious about that.

32:41

Like, if everything

32:42

is mystical, then it can't really be

32:45

shared. Like, you have to post

32:47

on Instagram and you have to, like,

32:49

know your ZIP

32:50

code and your credit card number. You know what I mean?

32:52

But

32:53

yeah. How how well,

32:55

how mystical are you as people at this point,

32:57

you know? And how much does that play into what you're creating? It

33:00

sounds like your record is really offering

33:02

people of facilitating an

33:04

experience of

33:06

this non

33:06

dual

33:09

the

33:11

I don't know if it's non

33:12

dual. Yeah. No. You hear where I'm going trying to go?

33:15

It's like, tell

33:15

me about your thoughts on this

33:17

duality and non duality

33:20

and what do we plan at here

33:21

in life?

33:23

you

33:24

Okay. you didn't

33:27

That's

33:27

just a great question. And I

33:29

I felt like

33:31

a existential

33:33

all the

33:34

time. Like, sometimes it just kinda, like,

33:36

drives me a little bit bananas.

33:38

Constantly

33:40

throughout my day, just feel

33:42

like, happening here

33:42

and why and it feels

33:44

like

33:44

a constant unraveling in that loop that you can

33:46

go into just

33:48

opening your hands

33:48

and surrendering.

33:51

then but I found,

33:53

like, in the I

33:55

don't know what

33:55

to call it. Like, non dual

33:57

face

33:58

thinking, realization,

34:01

it

34:01

the can

34:03

feel for me,

34:05

it can feel both, like, just so blissful

34:08

sometimes. Though, like,

34:09

I'm

34:12

just have opened enough

34:14

or let go and

34:16

you feel that bliss and then sometimes it

34:17

feels a little floaty

34:20

and disconnected.

34:22

a little little out of body. So,

34:24

like, my practice recently has

34:26

been how can I feel

34:30

that groundedness in that in

34:32

the the sense of

34:33

separation that have, like,

34:35

the heart space open

34:37

for all things to know that there

34:40

is no separation

34:41

of all

34:42

of it, but, like,

34:44

sometimes it's

34:45

just not helpful. It's

34:48

just

34:49

not

34:49

It hasn't been

34:51

helpful for me sometimes, and I

34:53

think part of my thing has been been

34:55

honest with where it is and isn't helpful.

34:57

And when it's not helpful, what kind

34:59

of story am I getting into

35:01

that

35:02

says it's not

35:04

helpful.

35:05

hi but

35:06

they're, like, specifically, like, things

35:07

about a frame times

35:09

I'm experiencing pain and

35:12

loss and and

35:14

sadness and I can get stuck in

35:16

my in thought going like,

35:18

well,

35:19

that Is

35:21

that all wanted? What's happening?

35:23

Is the great like, the

35:25

I'm that is everything?

35:28

Is that it just I come every every time to

35:30

just, well, it just is. Like, I can really

35:32

get caught in trying

35:34

to know what is happening

35:36

even in writing songs. I

35:38

or a little while there, I could

35:40

tell

35:41

that I

35:42

was Just like, I just wanna speak

35:43

the truth. What is truth? And

35:45

then thinking that that

35:47

is just one thing. and

35:50

that like Britain said, I think that's so

35:52

beautiful. It's like, yes, I sometimes

35:54

the the best truth

35:56

I could tell is in a story.

35:58

about

35:59

my life or a relationship that's

35:59

happening or, right, holding someone's

36:02

hand

36:04

and not in the not

36:06

in the

36:08

bloomed out space. But I feel like those

36:15

It kinda feels

36:18

like those lines for me are blurring a little bit

36:20

more between like when am I? in,

36:22

like, the head space and the

36:25

whatever other head

36:27

space is. Yeah. because I

36:29

it feels like there's this

36:32

allowance that's just happening more and

36:34

more

36:35

for me. that's

36:36

allowing that dance to happen

36:38

in every

36:38

moment. The dance of, you know,

36:41

this is a separate thing

36:43

that

36:43

I call Michael, and this is how we

36:46

talk about the calendar and kids and

36:48

school stuff.

36:50

And and if that's the zone we're in, that's what the zone we're in.

36:52

And I don't have to get caught up thinking,

36:54

like, that's not the he's not

36:56

a mic. He's not a you know, like,

36:57

that there's something, like,

37:00

right to talk about all of

37:02

it or experience it. So, like, thinking that I think

37:04

coming

37:05

from just life in general,

37:07

but also from religion

37:10

I could

37:11

and I've heard you talk about this too is, like, it

37:13

didn't really caught up in the

37:15

right and the wrong. and

37:17

just went so desperately to do it the right way.

37:20

So, like, those

37:21

that's unraveling a little bit

37:23

more for me

37:25

Audrey

37:25

recently. Beautiful. Yeah. I

37:27

think we wanna assign

37:29

those concepts of right and

37:31

wrong and to religion,

37:34

but it I think that war, that

37:36

entity exists in all of us, you

37:37

know, without without the church.

37:40

I

37:40

think that we made

37:42

we built the church from, okay, from our inner enmity, you know,

37:44

that we have. The the warring of

37:48

these whatever they are.

37:50

Yeah. That's good

37:52

to make

37:52

peace, I think, but it's hard hard

37:56

work. Yeah. And what about you,

37:57

Michael? Well, tying

37:59

it back to your

38:00

question about apophaticism,

38:03

apophatic mystic.

38:06

as well.

38:06

I think I can

38:08

maybe tie those two things together because that

38:10

earth's happened for me as

38:13

an idea. Hepativism

38:15

was that

38:15

first an idea or maybe even

38:17

sort

38:17

of

38:19

a belief

38:20

that

38:22

that that

38:23

was, like, the way to

38:25

do

38:25

it or something, and an episodicism

38:27

being a negation

38:28

of Right.

38:31

of

38:32

meaning more than a as

38:34

a you know,

38:35

like the what's the

38:36

other Abba vatic

38:37

cat cataphatic. Cataphatic is is the

38:40

more like God

38:42

is x.

38:44

And

38:44

apofatism says, God is god

38:46

is x. God is not x.

38:49

God is not not x. and

38:51

sort of, like,

38:52

in that negation of

38:55

the meaning that we're creating with our

38:58

minds and the the constrictions

39:00

of language. by

39:01

by acknowledging

39:02

that in using language

39:05

we're inherently constricting in

39:08

infinity. that's

39:08

a path to what I

39:10

would describe now as non duality.

39:13

Nond duality is not a

39:16

belief system on duality is not. A

39:19

set of assertions,

39:21

is not

39:22

even a technology. It's or

39:26

like a religion or it's it's more of a

39:28

description. The people who who who speak from

39:30

Anandu place

39:32

It's a description of an experience

39:34

of

39:37

awareness

39:39

That

39:40

is it's not

39:41

undifferentiated, but it is

39:44

not separate

39:45

from anything. there's There's

39:48

there's

39:48

there's ah

39:50

but even the non I love that

39:51

it's described as non dual and not

39:54

as oneness.

39:56

Like, it's not oneness and it's not oneness. It's

39:58

it's an experience of just

40:00

experience of just

40:03

almost like pre

40:05

before our brain

40:06

starts breaking everything up

40:09

into its boxes

40:11

and

40:11

starts identifying that first

40:13

thought I am

40:15

And I am just this

40:17

part of reality and not that part. I'm

40:19

just this body, not that body.

40:22

Just the the the part of the

40:24

breath where it enters the mouth, not not the

40:26

part of the breath before it enters the mouth, but the

40:28

one knows. And so the

40:30

non duality is

40:32

a

40:32

description of

40:35

our

40:35

deepest

40:37

essence experiencing itself.

40:40

And

40:40

I think it's actually more more accurate. I think

40:42

anytime you're using words, it's not accurate, but

40:45

it's more accurate to

40:46

describe it as

40:50

spirit seeing

40:50

itself or reality seeing itself more

40:52

than Michael seeing that everything's won.

40:55

Michael is the

40:57

constriction within reality.

40:58

But in this body and

41:00

in this mind, spirit or

41:03

awareness or reality or whatever

41:05

the Dow, however you wanna describe

41:07

it. God, God is has

41:09

seen itself.

41:11

As

41:11

so

41:12

that's an ever deepening and

41:15

so

41:15

far

41:17

since I had

41:18

little experiences of that as a kid. Two thousand ten, I had

41:20

a big

41:21

experience with it, twenty sixteen, a deeper experience

41:23

of it, twenty seventeen. Now there's been,

41:25

like, chapter

41:25

markers where it felt like

41:27

it felt like stanking even deeper. Mhmm. But

41:29

that has been the progress where spirit

41:32

recognizes itself more and

41:34

more clearly

41:36

in everything in this body.

41:38

And so

41:39

to say,

41:41

like, MI mystical

41:43

If

41:46

we're talking about

41:46

what is the non dual, I

41:50

am all I

41:51

am beginning in the end, the

41:52

alphabet. It's the whole the whole I am the

41:55

the million I suck. And

41:58

does that bring that up after this? Yeah. Does that see itself

41:59

in this body? Yes. Absolutely. Very clearly.

42:02

Does that does that change the

42:04

experience of this

42:06

lived organism? a billion

42:08

percent.

42:08

The life now compared

42:11

to before that awareness happened,

42:13

not even comparable. it's

42:14

it's absolutely a different It's

42:17

it's like moving

42:18

a dimension from flat

42:20

land. And so when

42:21

I hear words, like, in the Wikipedia page of, like, Penn

42:24

and Theistic or Pantheism,

42:26

it's

42:27

There's

42:28

no ism that describes it. No.

42:30

I wouldn't identify with any ism because that would be identifying as

42:33

a Michael who has

42:34

beliefs that thinks those

42:38

that mistakes those beliefs for being reality.

42:40

No. Any beliefs that this organism

42:42

has is a is

42:44

a coping mechanism to to survive.

42:47

from my ego. Yeah.

42:49

So it is

42:51

it is

42:53

for the music,

42:55

And

42:55

this record in

42:58

particular,

42:58

my joy and my

43:00

play with

43:01

it was to

43:02

play with the eye, to play with, like, who's singing this and

43:04

who's it being sung to? And I

43:06

like it being a little

43:08

fuzzy. like,

43:10

I forgive you. Would you forgive me? Who singing? Yeah. I still

43:13

love you. Who who's singing to who? And, actually,

43:15

at the beginning of record, if you heard that in

43:17

the introduction, it's, like, love

43:20

intro track. Play with this. I'll probably

43:22

I'll

43:22

probably play it in the podcast

43:24

for the opening because

43:27

It gets

43:27

a great it's a great opener. Thank you.

43:30

And say, what did it say? It

43:32

says, there's a variety of voices

43:34

saying the

43:36

same lines Right. Right.

43:37

You And that to me is representative. It's almost like and

43:39

this were actually like Christian Theology,

43:41

the Trinity Theology, of

43:45

the three and one. Because the oneness

43:47

is not a sameness. It's

43:49

not a flatness. It's

43:52

not a There is an eye and a vowel and

43:54

a between those things within the oneness. Mhmm.

43:56

So there is this experience of relationality.

43:58

There is this experience of

43:59

me looking your eyes and holding your

44:02

hands and longing and

44:04

love. It's all within it. It's and

44:06

it always has been, it always will be.

44:08

So

44:09

playing with

44:10

the

44:12

relationality, the dynamism,

44:13

the livingness within

44:16

the

44:16

within the

44:18

oneness one nurse that seemed

44:20

to

44:21

be paradoxical. That play, I think, it's like

44:23

the joy of life. That is the that's what

44:25

allows music to happen. what

44:28

allows -- Yeah. -- love to happen. And so

44:31

I

44:31

the like playing with

44:32

that, and it's been fun too.

44:35

I think the

44:36

true mission of

44:37

the music is actually

44:40

it is a

44:41

love song from spirit to spirit.

44:43

That's really truly

44:44

what it is. It's

44:46

spirit

44:46

seeing itself in

44:48

a

44:48

dualistic experience and then inviting

44:50

itself towards itself in that space

44:53

that,

44:54

what is it? What is the question

44:56

invites an experience of surrender?

44:58

That to me is is

45:01

what the technology of the record is for is,

45:03

to lead us

45:04

into surrender to the moment of life.

45:26

you start

45:27

to recognize I am one with these things that I long

45:29

for. I'm already one with them. And

45:31

so if I know that and if

45:33

I live that, and I live

45:35

from that more. What will I feel

45:38

like? What will it

45:40

be like?

45:42

And

45:42

I I really hear what you're saying in your new songs.

45:46

Like, yeah, I wanna hear more about,

45:47

like, what your hope

45:49

is for people this

45:54

work,

45:54

and it releases

45:55

Friday. Right? The eleven

45:58

is

45:59

eleven

45:59

eleven eleven. So this may be out slightly after it comes

46:02

out if but but I'm not sure if it

46:04

might come out on Friday if

46:04

I can if I can swing it. I'm gonna

46:08

try to But

46:09

the yeah. What

46:10

are you hoping? Do

46:12

you

46:13

have hopes for how people will hear this?

46:15

Like, as Michael and Lisa, the

46:18

beings

46:18

with needs

46:19

and, like, bills to

46:20

pay and all

46:21

that. I'm sure that you're hoping that people are

46:23

gonna like this means you can share it and stream it

46:25

and all of that. But, like, it's far as

46:27

what you're imagining for them

46:30

in your heart when they hear this.

46:32

What are you hoping

46:34

that

46:34

they might feel or might hear

46:37

in

46:37

this work of

46:39

yours. Nuh-uh. When I say

46:41

the

46:41

payment -- Yeah. --

46:43

so I part also

46:44

of what really not even

46:47

having

46:47

an understanding for me of, like, where is

46:49

this being sung and who's it

46:51

being sung too? Part

46:53

of the joy of that for me

46:55

is allowing people to really insert their

46:57

stories however, and it would actually be

46:59

fully accurate. Like, I

47:02

forgive you between two lovers is every bit as

47:04

accurate for the meaning of the

47:06

song as spirit singing

47:08

to people or people singing to spirit like

47:10

it's not

47:12

it's made intentionally to, like, insert

47:16

your moments -- Yeah. -- like and

47:19

let it be is that that, like, longing to be

47:21

forgiven and to forgive, that's it's

47:24

the energy of, like, you can

47:28

take that in a relationship or you can take that down to,

47:30

like, protons and neutrons and

47:32

electrons. Right. Yeah. Like, where do you wanna put

47:34

that energy

47:36

of, like, Audrey drawn to

47:38

each other, yet we're sometimes, like, resistant to each other. These versions

47:40

and these attachments and these attractions

47:44

and

47:45

the So, really, I

47:46

don't have any specific not

47:49

like, I hope people hear this

47:51

as non dual, whatever.

47:54

But I do hope I do hope that it invites them

47:58

into a

47:59

more present surrender

48:01

of their lives as as

48:03

it is.

48:04

Like, to

48:05

really allow to give people a then

48:07

we have so much,

48:10

especially anything that remotely spiritually related. There's so

48:12

much. You need to be better. You need to

48:14

believe something or or

48:16

not believe something. Or you need to be healed.

48:18

Or you need to And

48:21

I would this message to me is, like, enjoy

48:24

this. Like, this very moment.

48:27

what if it's perfect? Like, could just be and even if you

48:30

think it's imperfect, enjoy that. Enjoy the

48:32

ride

48:33

of that.

48:34

Yeah. That's what I that's what I

48:35

hope. Yeah. I was I was gonna

48:37

say something

48:38

similar or say yeah. Say

48:40

the same thing, I think.

48:43

knowing what it feels like to

48:46

spend so much of your life, like

48:48

trying and striving

48:49

for something or to be different

48:51

or to let even does, like, the

48:53

striving to let go something which kind of fails, you know, like,

48:56

collapses in on itself. Trying to

48:58

let go doesn't

49:00

really work.

49:01

the the times that

49:02

I have felt the most

49:05

love

49:06

and

49:09

presideness

49:09

and

49:11

the man oneness. That's that's

49:12

what I what

49:14

people feel

49:16

is there's no there's nothing to

49:18

fix. about theirs themselves.

49:19

There's and if if yeah. They feel like there

49:21

is something to do or something to fix that

49:23

that will just my hope is

49:25

that it will

49:28

we'll be

49:29

okay in that even in in that feeling. But

49:32

having that have in since

49:36

in

49:36

myself that that unraveling

49:38

of striving and trying

49:40

to be

49:41

something or do

49:44

something

49:44

and

49:45

think like sinking

49:48

into the

49:49

fullness

49:52

of love. every cell

49:52

in my body, where my

49:53

whole body can feel that. That's what I

49:56

hope.

49:58

Vibrations

49:58

ration can

50:00

that people

50:01

people

50:02

There's

50:06

a

50:07

I just

50:08

I never read

50:09

the Alchemist for some reason. I just

50:11

read it

50:11

recently.

50:13

Okay. and this

50:15

will be this might be

50:16

strangely almost triggering for

50:19

the

50:19

not for the ex

50:20

Christians and the post Christians, but

50:24

It was asking about or

50:26

or in the

50:27

book he's, like, looking for his personal legend.

50:29

Right? Just talking to his heart to find personal

50:31

legend and stuff.

50:33

and I was just

50:34

I asked my heart one day.

50:36

Why

50:37

am I

50:38

telling the story?

50:41

What's your personal

50:42

personal legend

50:44

legend? And my heart made me

50:46

laugh quite hard actually to win

50:48

the

50:48

world

50:50

for Christ. But

50:50

what that means to

50:52

me

50:53

now because that's where

50:55

I started. That's as a child. That was what I that

50:57

was and that's in the

50:59

book, you're like, you know it when you're a child, you know your

51:01

personal legend, but then you go through a whole thing, you kinda actually find out what it

51:03

really means, whatever. Yeah. And to me, what

51:06

that really means at

51:08

this point,

51:10

is

51:11

there's like like,

51:12

as I

51:13

surrender, as

51:16

every cell

51:16

in my body surrenders to life.

51:19

like, into how it it as as

51:21

it is. I mean, that is the

51:24

Christ consciousness that there

51:26

is this oneness

51:28

oneness with

51:30

with, of course,

51:31

that

51:33

that

51:34

the moves in that moves in to

51:36

the body. And even how we talked

51:37

about Jesus coming into my heart, like, that I

51:39

I don't mind that image now.

51:41

I like this. consciousness

51:43

coming into my heart of this awareness, of

51:46

this unitiative love, this

51:48

loving awareness, as it moves

51:50

into my whole body

51:52

every cell, the world

51:54

is set free to be

51:56

exactly as it is within this

51:58

experience. But

51:58

the whole world becomes

52:00

Christ. Christ

52:02

before me, Chris, behind me, like, the whole that whole where

52:04

it's all just the awareness. It's all

52:07

just the love.

52:08

the and the

52:09

world is actually that free, the

52:11

buddhas had that like, in my

52:14

liberation. All things have

52:16

been liberated. as

52:17

in in his experience, everything gets to be exactly as

52:19

it is.

52:21

Yeah. That's

52:22

wise. I think

52:25

No. I know. What do

52:27

I know?

52:32

That

52:32

was the best response possible. That's

52:34

wise. not, I think. That's why I

52:36

explained that a lot. Okay. This is what I I know.

52:38

To my life, no. I

52:41

know what I think about anything. I but that sounds like

52:43

a sneeze. I know. I'm with you. Maybe

52:46

it maybe it is. We may never

52:47

know. But I yeah.

52:50

I I wanna know,

52:52

this is

52:53

a question that I

52:55

always love hearing

52:59

Audrey of creators, musicians. I

53:01

would love

53:01

for each of

53:02

you to describe one moment

53:06

from the

53:06

writing or

53:07

recording of this

53:10

album that felt

53:12

felt

53:14

like oneness to

53:14

you. Like you felt that

53:17

feeling you're speaking

53:17

of where you're in

53:19

flow with creation.

53:22

You're

53:22

you're not sensing any separateness.

53:24

You know? Mhmm.

53:25

We would we would get there.

53:27

Right? All of us who were

53:29

involved with maybe some of the more mantra like

53:32

church worship traditions where

53:36

things were sung over and over and over and over

53:38

until we all

53:40

caught the wave,

53:42

you know. of the collective effervescence of that experience.

53:44

But sometimes that happens in writing a

53:46

song alone. Do you feel that

53:48

feeling of

53:50

connectedness too? the

53:52

source,

53:52

the all the words fall short,

53:54

right, and don't accurately describe.

53:56

But, yeah, what what are

53:57

moments that

53:59

you can call, if any, you know, in the creation of this music

54:02

that made you feel alive and

54:04

connected on

54:06

that level. Well, I think

54:07

that we mentioned that

54:08

just a little bit ago, but, like,

54:11

for me, the million eyes, like,

54:13

when that idea

54:15

first started That was a real moment for

54:18

me.

54:20

It is

54:22

just the breath. Like, it was such a

54:25

all the the song

54:28

happening,

54:31

all the best happening

54:33

in

54:34

beautiful symphonic

54:36

breath. Like,

54:38

for me

54:38

that was such AII

54:42

think alone. And then

54:45

I

54:45

remember

54:47

alone telling you,

54:48

I was like, oh my god. I mean, of course, Michael's like,

54:51

yeah. Yeah. Oh, like,

54:52

this is what it this is what it is, you know, to to

54:54

constrict and put language to it. Yeah.

54:56

Yeah. But it just felt like

54:59

this it was really nice

55:00

to be able to go to someone there

55:02

in this, like, understanding of what

55:04

I was experiencing. Like, I hear up

55:06

now. I was just like,

55:08

oh,

55:10

Oh,

55:10

thank thank god.

55:12

This is what it is. Every

55:15

everyone's in it. Everyone.

55:16

and thinking

55:17

of my kids and my family.

55:20

And

55:21

they all

55:22

all I

55:23

just remember

55:24

being, you know, when when

55:27

what I

55:28

would call myself, I

55:29

wouldn't call myself a particular thing right

55:31

now. But when I was a Christian, you know,

55:33

just feeling so sad

55:36

that some

55:36

people didn't know. And

55:38

and just feeling, like,

55:40

even as a in the year game too, just

55:42

really wanting everyone to be okay.

55:46

of

55:46

what a

55:47

what a fulfilling just

55:48

to know. Everything and

55:49

everyone. They all

55:52

know

55:52

the knowing is within

55:54

all of all of it. And then so that was

55:55

such a moment for me. And then the other one that it just,

55:57

like, pops into my head is I

56:00

just love

56:02

I

56:02

think in this, like, transition

56:04

of awareness, whatever you

56:06

wanna call it, for me,

56:08

has

56:10

been feel like it's opened me up way more to, like, this

56:12

sillier side

56:13

of me.

56:15

Yes. i think

56:18

I think say

56:18

this is true, maybe just like

56:20

being as silly as possible. And so there

56:22

was this moment

56:24

where we were

56:27

trying to make

56:28

like a clap track for one of the

56:30

songs, and we all pulled down our pants

56:32

and we were slapping our asses. We

56:38

were all like Did that make

56:39

it? Oh my god. What sign is

56:41

that on? Yeah. Some

56:44

of those crops are asses.

56:46

They're ass they do. Wait. Which song? I don't I don't

56:48

remember. I don't know.

56:50

It might have

56:51

you heard it. Here you go. I

56:53

forgot about

56:56

that. Man. I

56:57

don't think so. No. Damn. Good to

56:58

ask. We were also, like, having the

57:00

best time. So, like, some

57:04

time sometimes it's, yeah, crying in this sense of, like Yeah.

57:06

And then

57:07

other times, I'm just stopping

57:09

you fucking ass. It'd be really

57:11

with your friends.

57:12

Yeah. because it was so

57:14

fun.

57:19

Especially if

57:22

they

57:24

keep

57:25

stick

57:27

them You got a little extra extra base. Let's get

57:29

a little extra base in

57:32

that cloud. He's

57:35

toting around a couple handoffs. So Oh,

57:43

yeah. I wasn't expecting to say that

57:46

today. Other sentence. Here we

57:48

are. Yeah. Pretty original.

57:51

Yeah. Thank you. Michael,

57:54

yeah, tell me some of your

57:58

ass clap spiritual ass claps from

57:59

this record.

58:04

well Well, I mean,

58:06

as far as like the connectedness piece,

58:09

this that is

58:11

my pretty much go to natural state

58:14

at this point, but I guess

58:16

there are there are

58:18

moments that it feels

58:20

clearer than others. I

58:23

haven't been lost in the

58:25

Michael story since two thousand

58:27

sixteen. where I'm like, right, there's a vortex of

58:29

suffering that I can't, like,

58:31

notice and

58:32

and enjoy on some level.

58:34

But

58:40

laughing. No.

58:41

Fine. Give me

58:44

a sec. That's just I

58:46

don't really wanna tell you. That's the

58:48

truth. The thought of your language is

58:50

just amazing.

58:52

Oh,

58:52

sorry. I love this stuff. Okay. Go

58:55

ahead. Well, they're actually very

58:57

on this one, end the waiver record, which

58:59

is a solo embodiment

59:02

dance project. I just stop recording

59:04

at this point. If I if there are,

59:06

like, thoughts going in my head while

59:09

I'm performing the music, I

59:11

just stop and delete it.

59:14

Wow. So I just unless I'm

59:16

in my heart,

59:17

in my body, delete it.

59:19

So all of it is inflow. Oh.

59:24

Oh, I'd love to hear more about how you

59:25

get there. because

59:28

not to interject too much. But as as a singer

59:30

myself, I find that the vocal

59:33

booth to record the final

59:35

vocals for the song you

59:37

know, is my most dreaded

59:39

place. It's like I because I

59:42

start it's so easy to get in my head

59:44

about how it's sounding and think too hard about

59:46

it, and then Oftentimes, you're

59:48

enclosed

59:48

in a very strange

59:50

me space,

59:52

in a very foreign environment, your

59:54

music, my music is not created in those types of spaces. And

59:56

so to record it in those types of spaces is always

59:58

interesting for me if I do it

59:59

that way. And,

1:00:02

yeah, how how do you how do

1:00:04

you get into your heart when you're working with,

1:00:06

you know, knobs and dials and computers

1:00:08

and microphones and technology and whatever.

1:00:11

How how do you do that? What's your method?

1:00:13

Your heart open. Well, I

1:00:15

literally just be focused

1:00:16

on my heart. Like, I

1:00:18

don't I don't Like, if I I literally just, like,

1:00:21

feel my heart beating. Mhmm.

1:00:23

And while I'm feeling

1:00:24

my heart beating and I allow my body to

1:00:26

sink, my body knows what to do.

1:00:29

But it is

1:00:30

it's it sometimes sometimes it would

1:00:33

take a while, like, you

1:00:34

especially when I'm

1:00:36

trying to remember the words and stuff,

1:00:38

like, at the beginning that it can take a minute

1:00:40

before it's, like, really let it into my body. But,

1:00:44

yeah, even sometimes it'll be, like, oh, maybe

1:00:45

other things

1:00:48

burst. for a minute. Yeah. Yeah. Does this, like, let this then

1:00:50

be in my heart while I'm

1:00:54

for me

1:00:56

being alone sometimes as

1:00:58

easier singing. Yeah. Same. Yeah.

1:01:00

Much easier. Yeah. To just talk because

1:01:02

if there's somebody in the room, it I think more

1:01:04

thoughts are, like, is this sounding okay?

1:01:07

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So

1:01:10

much. Yes. Yeah. The other day

1:01:12

I was the other day

1:01:12

I was recording a vocal, and I found

1:01:15

myself thinking things like,

1:01:16

Am I

1:01:17

sucking my gut in too much? I

1:01:18

think my diaphragm is

1:01:20

like feeling crooked. Is that possible?

1:01:24

I don't why does it feel like that? I can't feel it. I was, like, sort of,

1:01:26

having this weird, like, what

1:01:28

is happening? I I'm, like,

1:01:31

I forgot I forgot how I like

1:01:34

how how why

1:01:34

do I open my mouth? Should I open my throat? Can

1:01:36

you open your throat? I don't know. It's

1:01:40

so

1:01:40

much pressure. And then so for me for me, it's like

1:01:42

I have to breath is always the thing. Right?

1:01:44

For me, I

1:01:45

I'm just like, Yeah.

1:01:47

Just

1:01:47

feel your

1:01:48

breathing and and

1:01:50

and then I also find that

1:01:54

for me, allowing my hands to move. Oh, yeah. because I used to,

1:01:56

like, hold as soon as possible to avoid

1:01:58

making any sound.

1:01:59

And

1:02:01

now I just feel like if I don't let my hands

1:02:03

move, I can't get to them. Yeah. My body

1:02:05

does not wanna stand still while I'm doing that.

1:02:07

Right. I feel that same thing and I used to make fun of

1:02:09

that for people. I'm like,

1:02:12

know. Same. Yeah. I'm sorry to

1:02:14

commit it, but Yeah. I have to

1:02:16

let my hands flow.

1:02:18

Just like, Middle

1:02:19

fingers. I don't

1:02:21

know. Yeah.

1:02:22

Just you name it. You know, I've done

1:02:24

it. I'm just I don't know. It's it's

1:02:26

definitely embodied for me to feel or feels

1:02:28

that way to to move while I sing, and

1:02:30

that's something that

1:02:31

does does help me. but

1:02:33

I

1:02:33

can't wear anything swishy because then you

1:02:36

hear. So I'm

1:02:37

just like, you

1:02:38

know, I'm I'm like that. that

1:02:41

inflatable outside the car the car wash,

1:02:42

you know, the, like yeah.

1:02:44

A balloon man. I

1:02:47

found it really interesting

1:02:49

to, yeah, to approach. Let me just

1:02:52

like Michael was saying, everything is inflow

1:02:54

to be the arrow that's

1:02:56

being shot, you know, just

1:02:59

be the thing happening. And then I'll

1:03:01

get stuck sometimes going, am

1:03:02

I just letting it happen? Yeah. Am I just

1:03:04

letting it happen? it happening. I am

1:03:07

But I I feel it. You get through my vocal cords, but,

1:03:09

like, what should I feel? What is the

1:03:12

area of being not being shut feel

1:03:14

like? And I'm like, oh

1:03:16

my god. It's totally But I have

1:03:18

I also have this really weird thing that happens that

1:03:20

I didn't know happen until I was

1:03:23

recording my audiobook. my ear

1:03:25

pops. Something in my ear

1:03:27

will pop when I'm talking

1:03:29

or singing.

1:03:30

talking are singing And so

1:03:32

I

1:03:33

have to do it. Like, when I'm

1:03:35

recording,

1:03:36

I have to do it a certain way or you can

1:03:39

hear that pop.

1:03:40

So

1:03:41

I'm like, what are you supposed to do when you're a person

1:03:43

like that and you have to hold yourself as well as I

1:03:45

think how? Wild.

1:03:48

But

1:03:50

Whoa. I've

1:03:50

never heard of that one. This change. You get you get a pass then.

1:03:52

Thank you. You don't have to be the arrow. You don't have

1:03:55

to be the arrow. Thank you. No. You can

1:03:57

just think about it. That's

1:03:59

fine. Look at

1:04:01

it that way. It's like, oh, I

1:04:03

can't

1:04:04

do the homework. I can't 0II can't do

1:04:07

it way. Yeah. Exactly. So a

1:04:10

few minutes left here.

1:04:12

What do I want

1:04:14

what do i want to now

1:04:16

to

1:04:16

know?

1:04:19

Okay.

1:04:21

See,

1:04:23

I

1:04:25

wonder

1:04:25

if we could talk for a couple

1:04:27

minutes about the

1:04:30

conundrum

1:04:30

being

1:04:31

of being a

1:04:33

non

1:04:35

ism band

1:04:36

-- Mhmm. --

1:04:38

after

1:04:39

having been An

1:04:40

ism band? An

1:04:41

ism band?

1:04:43

I like his

1:04:43

and Band. That's great. Yeah.

1:04:46

We obviously,

1:04:48

if

1:04:49

anyone listening to this that knows

1:04:51

anything about both of us, are

1:04:53

all three of us will know that all of us are at

1:04:55

least in our own lanes having pretty similar

1:04:57

experiences of of

1:05:00

having once made Christian music or music for music for

1:05:02

Christians, once having

1:05:04

held Christian

1:05:04

beliefs, now having expanded

1:05:08

to hold

1:05:10

the loss of

1:05:11

belief and embrace

1:05:14

that. Making

1:05:14

music from that

1:05:16

space is already different.

1:05:18

So if you're yeah.

1:05:21

The the language is

1:05:23

changing. The concepts are evolving and

1:05:25

changing. And so people who have had a relationship

1:05:27

with a song in your

1:05:29

past, may not speak this

1:05:31

language or understand

1:05:34

what this is

1:05:35

or feel the same connection to it. Let's

1:05:37

just put it that way. or

1:05:39

whatever morally neutral reason.

1:05:40

Yeah,

1:05:42

I'm

1:05:44

curious about how how

1:05:45

how has that felt? Is

1:05:48

it Is it as angst creating for you at times? Is it is for me or

1:05:50

as it has been? because I know for me,

1:05:52

I wanna be so like,

1:05:56

I surrender.

1:05:56

You know? And then I am. And then I

1:05:59

sort of have these moments where I'm

1:06:01

like, oh, no. Like, what am

1:06:02

I gonna do? You know, how am

1:06:05

I gonna do this?

1:06:06

And, yeah, so how much how am I gonna

1:06:07

do this? Have you have you all

1:06:09

felt about this?

1:06:10

and about this

1:06:12

reason we

1:06:14

stopped Gunther. To be honest with you,

1:06:17

like, a few years ago

1:06:19

when we stopped, it was because of

1:06:21

this. It was, like, how do

1:06:23

we if it's almost like you if

1:06:24

everything we put out, that

1:06:26

Spotify put a filter over it that,

1:06:28

like, changed all the words or something.

1:06:31

Like, well, what Right. I was supposed to do. I was supposed

1:06:33

to do.

1:06:33

Yeah. That's possible.

1:06:35

Yeah.

1:06:37

Yeah. This

1:06:38

record

1:06:40

and us wanting to do it again under Gunther is

1:06:42

an attempt to be a

1:06:43

little more zen with it

1:06:46

of, like,

1:06:48

we flow with it. We're in a

1:06:50

context. Yeah. So

1:06:52

so can we can we

1:06:54

well with

1:06:55

the with the fact that a lot of people are going to hear this as Christian or some people are

1:06:57

gonna hear it as anti Christian. And really

1:06:59

to me Isn't that amazing that

1:07:01

you wrote something

1:07:02

that could be

1:07:04

viewed their way. They're pretty amazing. And to me, it's not

1:07:06

either

1:07:06

of those things. Right. For them,

1:07:09

it is. So amazing.

1:07:12

It's kind of achievable. I have to say.

1:07:14

I'm glad you I don't think I

1:07:16

I do. I don't think I've

1:07:18

ever heard anything quite like that.

1:07:20

before. So is Spats. But

1:07:26

It's but I think

1:07:27

what's you what's

1:07:30

what we're trying to flow with is, like, there is an aspect of

1:07:32

it that feels you just mentioned earlier

1:07:34

that that feels almost like worship.

1:07:37

And that's intentional. Like, that that we're we're

1:07:39

kinda like, look at what was the feeling and worship

1:07:41

that we liked? Yeah. Yeah. And can can

1:07:43

you get that feeling without

1:07:45

needing a bunch of dog mower without needing bunch

1:07:48

of blood

1:07:48

and all that stuff. I

1:07:52

need

1:07:52

a bunch of blood.

1:07:54

Where's

1:07:54

the blood? You just need a little. You just need a little need a

1:07:57

blood in these songs.

1:08:01

be a cup of blood. Two cups. Two and

1:08:04

a

1:08:04

half cups of blood.

1:08:06

Two and

1:08:07

a half cups of blood. It's

1:08:13

the

1:08:14

fieran.

1:08:18

So I I think, like, the flow

1:08:21

of,

1:08:24

like, What's what's

1:08:25

actually universal to us? This is life. So it's called love

1:08:27

selling to life. And

1:08:28

life of called love song life

1:08:30

that's okay it's like, Christian's what

1:08:33

what's

1:08:33

wrong? What it's

1:08:34

not I don't think this

1:08:35

is an offensive record. Like,

1:08:37

to me, my mantra

1:08:39

through making it. was

1:08:42

I'm going to

1:08:43

allow myself to enjoy making a record that other people enjoy. I don't

1:08:45

have to push anybody away

1:08:47

with this

1:08:48

one.

1:08:50

There's

1:08:50

nothing to, like, if

1:08:52

they if they enjoy it, that's okay. And I'll actually

1:08:54

enjoy that they enjoy it. I'm gonna allow myself

1:08:58

to enjoy that. So I love that. It has my hope with this one

1:09:00

that it's like that Christians could

1:09:02

get something out of it.

1:09:04

Oh, I think they could. Absolutely.

1:09:07

But it's also but

1:09:09

it's not just for Christians. That's

1:09:11

for it's for life.

1:09:25

Thank you

1:09:29

so much

1:09:32

for

1:09:32

listening. I

1:09:34

had an amazing time talking with

1:09:36

Michael and Lisa about all

1:09:38

the spirituality, and thoughtfulness, and ask

1:09:40

clubs that went into this amazing

1:09:43

collection of music. His

1:09:45

dream's everywhere, November

1:09:47

eleventh. Listen now.