0:00

What you can do as a stoic is just

0:03

do the best you possibly can. You

0:05

can't control people's reaction to your work.

0:08

I think it was Epictetus talked about the

0:11

loop player or some sort of

0:13

ancient instrument and you can practice

0:15

all you like and you get

0:17

on stage and you

0:20

could be out in an amphitheater and it's windy and

0:22

you're playing really well but the sound doesn't

0:25

travel to the audience and you get booed

0:27

and you know that is out of your

0:29

control that weather but your practice, your

0:32

passion turning up on time that's all

0:34

within your control. Journalist

0:38

and author Brigid Delaney reckons we could

0:40

learn a lot about how to live

0:43

well now from ancient

0:45

stoic philosophers. This

0:47

is the Lizelle Wellbeing Show, the podcast

0:49

helping us all have a better second

0:51

half. I'm Lizelle and I'm on quite

0:53

a mission to find ways for all

0:55

of us to thrive in later life

0:57

by investing in our health and our

0:59

wellbeing today. Now I wonder

1:02

if you feel you live by a

1:04

certain philosophy. Do you have principles or

1:06

values that you call on in

1:08

particular trying or chaotic or

1:10

unpredictable moments? I have

1:12

learnt that there's no point in trying

1:14

to be a perfectionist, that's my kind

1:16

of default and I've learnt that if it's

1:19

mostly good most of the time then

1:21

that's enough frankly. Also

1:23

I have learnt to try and

1:25

worry less about the things I

1:27

have absolutely no control over and

1:30

I guess these could be considered

1:32

my own personal philosophies. Well

1:34

Brigid Delaney is a journalist for

1:36

The Guardian in Australia. She

1:39

is the author of great

1:41

books including This Restless Life

1:43

and Wellmania and for the

1:45

past few years she's been

1:47

living life like the ancient

1:49

stoic philosophers. In researching

1:51

for her book Reasons Not to Worry,

1:54

How to be a Stoic in Chaotic

1:56

Times, Brigid found a time

1:58

not completely unlike the other. Your

2:00

own, There was more prayed

2:02

corruption, anxiety and over indulgence

2:04

say despite the two thousand

2:06

year gap, what did the

2:09

static know about? Tranquility and

2:11

a sense of agency that

2:13

we could take heed of

2:15

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3:17

Working bridges earned to thought that she

3:19

with the question what is stoicism a

3:21

messy probably? we use it know days

3:24

to school i people who are quite

3:26

stiff upper lip as he said he

3:28

a year they didn't display too much

3:30

emotion the maybe quick coleman with snow

3:33

but are we talking about something a

3:35

bit different here. We as the

3:37

British really are in that second

3:39

definition of stoicism, particularly you know,

3:41

after the Blitz and keep calm

3:43

and carry on. But it has

3:45

a completely different meaning. Arm A

3:47

come from the Great would still

3:49

on which is the Painted Ports.

3:52

In Athens were philosophers and.

3:55

The. Public used to gather and debate ideas

3:57

really very long time ago. Three fifty.

4:00

Three Hundred Bay say

4:02

so stoicism. The

4:04

School of Philosophy got it's name

4:06

from the store and over time

4:08

like language does. Change. So

4:10

you know it has kind of.

4:12

It's manning has become a bit

4:15

perverse. Said I'm fit stoicism, you

4:17

know. proper noun is certainly not

4:19

a stiff upper lip philosophy. That.

4:22

Finish thinking about the history of

4:24

it. And when did you personally

4:26

become so interested in stoicism? What

4:28

was your journey? For my journey

4:30

I'm like a lot of journalists who

4:32

are struggling for ideas you that we

4:35

get press releases said we get all

4:37

sorts of tips on on stories to

4:39

right and I was working for The

4:41

Guardian in a strayer and during a

4:43

weekly column cove Pretty Ladies diary and

4:45

each week I'd. Write. About

4:48

something that was happening in my life

4:50

and of friends on the foreign descent.

4:52

Me a press release from he was

4:54

Exeter University which was live like a

4:56

store it for awake for the invitation

4:58

was to join an online group of

5:00

people from all over the world who

5:02

were learning about stoicism and trying to

5:04

practices and so I joined on this

5:06

group I did the work that I

5:08

found it a little bit dense arm

5:10

I didn't have much of a background

5:12

at all in the ideas so I

5:14

won't Kind of a bit of a

5:16

joke column that that. Didn't take it

5:18

very seriously and then know got a

5:20

miles as I do with a lot

5:23

of columns pointing out that had I

5:25

approached it with more seriousness I could

5:27

have learn something from it. So I

5:29

took that feedback on and the following

5:31

year I went back and did the

5:34

course. Kind. Of at just as

5:36

a private individual not to write about. Did it

5:38

with some friends and we had a what's up

5:40

group. And. I found the second

5:42

time around it was it was fantastic

5:44

and he notices prior to the pandemic

5:46

so. I. Was learning about

5:49

it just before the pandemic shit. and

5:51

when the pandemic hit. It

5:53

really was very useful. How

5:55

interesting, See what did the course involves?

5:57

And how does it change? That

5:59

we when you were doing it. For it

6:01

involved. And

6:03

lessons or ratings h day and

6:06

discussion and you'd do the rating.

6:09

You. Might put in the forum what you think of

6:11

that, how it relates to your life. you know

6:13

they'll be. An. Expert who also

6:15

be kind of coming into the forums

6:17

and and talking a bit about stoicism.

6:19

So in my group my second second

6:21

time around my what set group we

6:23

did the ratings together and we talked

6:25

about what was going on in our

6:27

lives at the time. So. Someone.

6:29

Had a new baby, some on was

6:32

struggling with mental health issues build another

6:34

person you know, seven to buy an

6:36

apartment and so we as a group

6:38

we we workshopped our problems with the

6:41

stoicism that I will learn as a

6:43

stoic A here and it was. It

6:45

was good on a number of levels.

6:47

The first one was to engage. With.

6:50

Your friends at I'm at a deeper level. You.

6:53

Know what is what? What are they going through?

6:55

You know they don't have to go through it

6:57

alone. but them being home to apply a philosophy.

6:59

And. Support your friends using

7:01

that philosophy to overcome adversity.

7:04

I think they're really great. Model a serious thing

7:06

isn't it is. I think we we

7:09

live in a time know when feelings

7:11

and emotions are really validated. In

7:14

order to be consciousness of people's

7:16

mental health, the advice is to

7:18

acknowledge all extremes of emotion. And

7:21

wouldn't stoicism say about that to the

7:23

stoics have a different way to her?

7:25

So finding com I think it's a

7:28

the extremes of emotion or not something

7:30

to be. Welcomed when I

7:32

saw. Is very different

7:34

from that as which is it's okay to

7:36

feel what you feel and and that so

7:39

great armed The stoics would say. What

7:41

you should try and achieve his his

7:43

tranquility or or they call it attracts

7:45

Yeah which is. To. A

7:48

very relaxed shields not perturbed

7:50

frame of mind and when

7:52

you achieve that and. You

7:55

you achieve it. Over the day, over

7:57

the night. It's not just. For.

7:59

A minute. Have to be As you

8:01

have to be relaxed philly constantly.

8:03

you're less likely to be upset

8:05

and then suffer. When.

8:07

Adversity happens to so much if you've

8:10

got a heightened set of emotion on,

8:12

think about like when you've just had

8:14

a fight with some on the fight

8:16

with your partner, have fought with a

8:18

kid or your boss and the New

8:20

York furious and then you get me,

8:22

wonder will have your car. And

8:25

then someone cuts you off. You're

8:27

not going to respond very well

8:29

enough to go a sudden yeah,

8:31

because you've all your already heightens

8:33

Know that the stoics kind of

8:35

talk about these circles of of

8:37

relationships. It's it. It's not just

8:39

a stoic idea, it's also put

8:41

a swamp. but it's. You

8:44

don't you have a you have

8:46

an emotion that may feel specific

8:48

to you but if you don't

8:50

deal with it is then does

8:52

spill out certain strangers and to

8:54

he he had people around you

8:56

colleagues and so you can create

8:58

or the pace or disturbance. Within

9:01

how you you actually your own life

9:03

And Athena who nation as. Soon as

9:05

he was really interesting it it's a

9:08

word mom had never heard before it

9:10

the is not and you need to

9:12

to stoicism because there's another tool. Isn't

9:14

that the moment about finding his penis?

9:16

People talk about the need to be

9:19

the answer. We can stay healthy that

9:21

is not too dependent on external sensors

9:23

because. He said that this

9:25

service tend not to do this high

9:27

highs. Is. It is actually

9:29

worth a syrup series of us instead

9:32

finding that kind of level com. Absolutely.

9:34

And it's a com that's not

9:37

dependent on external. So my arm

9:39

the stoics have this thing called

9:41

preferred indifference which is has us

9:43

as eve you you prefer something

9:45

so I would prefer her some.

9:47

So Taylor Swift is on tonight

9:50

in Sydney or I'm taking this

9:52

call in and I would have

9:54

preferred to get tickets but I

9:56

didn't I was online trying but

9:58

I'm not upset. It because. Even.

10:01

Out with a preference. Who. I'm

10:03

kind of training myself to be indifferent about the.

10:05

Result I try, I didn't get

10:08

and yeah. It's okay, It's

10:10

it's not good at items. It's not going to ruin

10:12

my night and I get to speak to you instead.

10:15

Arms and I'm not sure

10:17

I must substitute potatoes. With the

10:20

have the again says well you know

10:22

I certainly feeling relaxed about it and

10:24

make a stickler. all the things, all

10:26

the things that you desire a lot

10:28

of them are outside your control of

10:31

human controls are getting getting. Tickets.

10:33

To and events they invited to

10:35

a party be big successful in

10:37

getting a rental property in. it

10:40

is always other factors and other

10:42

people competing. And. If your

10:44

okay with the result or matter what

10:46

it is. Then. You're less likely to

10:48

suffer and that's kind of why at a

10:51

wreck. the a with so important for the

10:53

stoics because. Ultimately, They.

10:55

Just wanted to minimize suffering. They're

10:57

like life is good. It's throw a lot

11:00

of suffering. At Us including

11:02

mean a lot of the story

11:04

of children young my disease with

11:06

Ross they didn't have. Some.

11:08

Antibiotics that medicines that we

11:11

have today so it was

11:13

was arm is very violent

11:15

time and so. Being.

11:17

Able to train yourself to suffer less

11:19

with a very valuable. Skill.

11:23

And am I think you know

11:25

today's world is also very chaotic

11:27

can vary with mom Me: yeah

11:30

and so to have the skill.

11:33

To. Be able to be calm throughout it

11:35

all to not. Get carried away

11:37

with the drama of. What's happening I

11:39

think's important and there is a lot

11:41

of drama. There is a lot you

11:44

know unless training and of the you

11:46

have to recognize what what the toll

11:48

is, the emotional toll on the energy

11:50

in that, the blame dependency, the worry.

11:53

You. Know at against you as a city

11:55

my interest in one of my mantras is

11:58

to try and worry less the to. about

12:00

the things that I can't control because

12:03

it's just a senseless emotion, it's

12:05

a waste of my brain space.

12:07

So I guess in a way

12:09

I was kind of being instinctively

12:11

stoic without consciously making

12:13

that decision. I mean,

12:16

a lot of stoicism is

12:19

so practical and people have

12:21

read my book and said, oh, I've

12:25

been practicing this philosophy without realising it.

12:28

But it is a coping strategy and

12:31

a framework which I think is really

12:33

useful. And some people like

12:35

yourself, it comes naturally to the

12:37

other people like me, I've had to

12:39

really work at it. I've

12:42

had a lot of drama, used to

12:44

seek it out a lot and

12:46

I've realised, oh, it's just not

12:50

necessarily serving me. No, no, it's,

12:52

you know, it's potentially damaging. And I think, I mean,

12:54

your book, I have to say, is brilliant. It's

12:57

also a great gift, you know, and

12:59

I'm thinking of, you know, a few

13:01

drama queens in life who could perhaps

13:03

do that. Well, a little handy read

13:05

of this. I mean, from your book,

13:07

you do say that everything

13:09

kind of ultimately equalises, so

13:12

high highs would therefore automatically

13:14

mean low lows. Is

13:16

that something that we're just going to have to

13:18

get used to and look at everything in through

13:20

this lens, as you say, of preferred indifference, which

13:22

I have to say, is going to be my

13:24

new favourite phrase. Absolutely love that.

13:27

Yeah, it's a bit of a tongue twister

13:29

at the start, but then, yeah, it's great.

13:31

And just quickly on the preferred indifference, the

13:33

three of them that I keep coming back

13:35

to are wealth,

13:38

health and reputation are the

13:40

things we should prefer, but they're

13:43

out of our control, ultimately. So we should be

13:45

indifferent. But we can go back to that. I

13:48

think, you know, your

13:50

question of the low lows versus

13:52

the high highs, I think it's a real trade

13:54

off, you know, like it's a real, that was

13:56

a hard one for me because I love

13:59

the highs. Don't like the lows,

14:01

but love the highs. Love

14:03

the feeling, love the

14:06

dopamine and it's a

14:08

natural feeling too. It's

14:10

really natural to feel great and on a

14:12

high when good things happen. So in a

14:14

way you kind of to

14:17

try and be atoraxic, you are hacking

14:19

a bit of that biochemistry

14:22

by halting

14:24

the high, halting the excitement

14:28

and that way you don't necessarily drop down

14:30

into the lows. I

14:33

think it's, you know, I do miss the highs.

14:35

I do miss that feeling of freaking

14:37

with joy and I have it less now whether

14:39

or not that's just because I'm

14:42

getting older and I've experienced a lot

14:44

of things already and things aren't novel

14:47

so much anymore or whether

14:49

it is the stoicism kicking in.

14:52

But yeah, I miss the

14:56

crazy joy, but I also don't miss

14:58

the crushing lows either. I

15:01

guess that's the trade off. You know, when you

15:03

talk about being atoraxic, does it mean

15:05

that essentially, you know, we can never get truly

15:08

excited about things or feel

15:10

that extreme joy? I mean,

15:12

are we actually limiting that

15:14

really? Yeah, I think

15:16

if you're being a purest, there

15:18

is a bit of a limit on it. But

15:21

you know, I still, you know,

15:24

if I'm feeling pure

15:26

joy, I just let myself ride

15:29

with it. But I

15:31

also kind of think it through, I think, oh,

15:33

well, I'm feeling great. This is amazing. This

15:36

is a great feeling. But it

15:38

could have easily not happened.

15:44

It could be taken from me. It's

15:47

a bit eorish, I have to say.

15:49

Well, yes and no. I

15:51

mean, because I don't get it's much

15:53

rarer that I'll feel miserable. So I

15:55

used to swing between the two quite

15:57

wildly, you know, big. Pies,

16:00

bad lows. So

16:03

the E or I mean, the ancients

16:06

don't have a lot of joy in their lives. So it's

16:08

not anti-joy. You can still definitely have joy.

16:11

But it's the chasing the

16:13

things that are external and

16:16

then being thrilled when you've got the apartment that

16:18

you've applied

16:21

for. You've got the job, you know. And

16:24

there's going to be times where you don't get the job

16:26

or you don't get the apartment, don't get the raise. So

16:29

it's about maybe finding joy

16:32

in things that

16:34

just exist. So I get

16:37

a lot of joy from, I'm

16:39

just looking out now at Sydney Harbour, which

16:41

is just at my door. And I get

16:43

a lot of joy. Yeah. Yeah. See it

16:45

just at the view, you know, or

16:48

of, you know, it's been really sticky

16:50

and humid here. The joy of a

16:53

cool change or the

16:55

joy of, you know, catching up with

16:57

friends. So there's a lot of

16:59

joy. It's just not as, you

17:02

know, it's not as kind of giddy. Okay.

17:04

I get that. And I guess

17:06

that kind of principle of

17:08

having a calm equilibrium that

17:11

would apply maybe also

17:13

to external validation. So

17:16

presumably we shouldn't allow ourselves to

17:18

get too excited about lovely compliments.

17:21

We might receive praise from others,

17:24

but by the same token, it

17:26

means that it's easier to ignore the

17:28

criticisms and the hearse as well. That's

17:31

one thing I'm actually quite strong on, which

17:33

is, I mean, it's great

17:35

that people like the book, but also people don't like the

17:37

book, you know, there are people

17:39

that don't like it and there are

17:41

people that like it. I'm always, you

17:44

know, I'm pleased to hear feedback and

17:46

if it comes on solicited, great, but

17:49

I don't read reviews. I don't read

17:51

good reads. If

17:54

someone's yeah, I just don't because

17:57

I will get feedback from my editor. So

17:59

people that work With the only thing

18:01

that can help improve it. but if I

18:03

start opening myself up to compliments. And

18:06

I don't know. for myself up the

18:08

criticism I'm going to have a i'm

18:10

on balance few of my work. So.

18:13

I'd rather. Not. Hear

18:15

and read anything and just be guided

18:17

by the people that are editing it

18:19

and by my own instincts. About.

18:21

If the work schools. I. Think

18:23

being a journalist and you would have this

18:26

also be a podcast are. We.

18:28

Work is public. People. Comment

18:30

a lot. So for so. I'm

18:33

a cigar. You didn't have comments on

18:35

my stories of my column. Ah, because

18:37

it it would that was so vicious.

18:39

You know a lot of thing like

18:41

those com in a little vitriolic sliver.

18:43

There was his third guy and a

18:45

lot. It's hard to ignore them, but

18:47

the Aegis do. I guess you live

18:49

like a boy. Yeah, audience. If

18:52

when you're starting out when you're younger

18:54

journalists. And you're on twitter and you feeling

18:56

good about something you've written and then. I.

18:58

Mean sometimes we used to send me

19:00

mean tweets like first monitor like stop

19:02

sitting the this and reality this. Is. Really

19:05

awful. It's like, no, I haven't stopped. Second,

19:07

it's. A sort of centeredness

19:09

of yeah wonder if is a

19:11

bit i'm gonna blow up says

19:14

here anyway and pet height but.

19:16

It can. Make you It

19:19

definitely made me self conscious

19:21

about my my style. When.

19:23

I go on such intense feedback. From.

19:27

Readers and an Isis as a

19:29

new. Thing. When you think about the

19:31

noise the the James blaring was he is

19:33

also owns it the and it was. Never

19:36

does. He. Know it's members

19:38

rafol have the ability to comment in

19:40

an instant and in a it's so

19:42

easy that you get enough with hundred

19:44

really kind of the comments and then

19:46

you get the feel for the to

19:48

the to visit your like and of

19:50

course they're the ones that stick. Which

19:52

which is kind of why. You shouldn't

19:54

read any of some readers. Yeah, And

19:56

you'll see, because yeah, get. You hear?

19:59

the don't read the praise, don't read

20:01

the criticism. So with your book, I mean,

20:03

your book is brilliant. Do you allow yourself to be

20:05

proud of what you've done, you know, and to be

20:08

moved by the idea that it's selling now? What

20:10

I'm proud of is when

20:12

people come up to me and say, I've

20:15

read your book, it helped me through grief

20:17

when my mother died, or my

20:20

brother is spending time in jail,

20:22

he's having like, this is comments

20:24

that people have given me, I've sent it to him

20:26

and he's finding it helpful. So I like

20:29

it when people

20:32

find it useful. But the thing

20:34

is, the next book could be

20:36

terrible and not sell. So I

20:38

have to really be indifferent. What

20:40

you can do as a stoic

20:42

is just do the best you

20:44

possibly can. You can't control

20:46

people's reaction to your work. So you

20:48

just have to do what you can

20:50

to make the work as

20:53

useful or as readable as possible. And

20:55

then the rest is

20:58

out of your hands. So I think

21:00

there's stoic lessons in publication

21:03

of any kind or

21:05

performance, you know, they talk, I think it was

21:07

Epic Fettis talked about the

21:09

loop player or the,

21:12

you know, some sort of ancient

21:14

instrument and you can practice all you like

21:16

and you get on stage. And,

21:18

you know, you could be out

21:20

in an amphitheater and it's windy and you're

21:23

playing really well but the sound doesn't travel

21:25

to the audience and you get booed and,

21:28

you know, that is out of your

21:30

control that whether but your practice, your

21:33

passion turning up on time, yeah,

21:37

that's all within your control. Yeah,

21:39

I mean, I like the idea that it is leading to

21:42

this element of control. And I

21:44

guess Stellix believes that we

21:47

don't have to take control, we have

21:49

to accept perhaps, we really don't have

21:51

any. We have control over a huge

21:53

area, which is our own

21:55

characters. So

21:57

there's kind of roughly three areas where we

21:59

do. have control and that is our

22:02

own character, our actions and reactions

22:05

and how we treat other people. That's all

22:07

within our direct control and everything else is

22:09

either partial or not within our

22:12

control. But the Stoics had this sort

22:14

of, you know, some of them believe that the

22:16

most important thing was a virtuous life and there

22:18

are, and that you can

22:20

control, like, and there are four virtues

22:23

that they believed in. One was courage,

22:26

then wisdom, temperance

22:28

or moderation and justice. So

22:31

you have control over whether

22:33

or not you embody and

22:36

strengthen those ideals. And

22:39

so an example might be you

22:41

are given a terminal

22:43

diagnosis, so a

22:45

disease, and you can't, you

22:48

can try and you can have all the

22:50

treatments that are available, you can do the

22:52

right thing, but ultimately the progress of that

22:54

disease is out of your control. But

22:56

what is within your control is to face

22:59

the problem with courage and

23:01

to show courage. And that was a very

23:04

important virtue for the Stoics. So

23:06

how courageous you are in the

23:09

face of adversity is within your control.

23:11

The adversity, however, is not. Got

23:14

you. And also, I picked up

23:16

on what you said there as

23:18

one of those four points being

23:21

temperance or moderation. So I guess

23:23

that would apply to something like overindulgence

23:25

or maybe even addiction. You know, I'm

23:27

thinking maybe our relationship with food, which

23:29

is something that we talk about on

23:32

this podcast. And there's some

23:34

general principles that apply there. You know,

23:36

there's some fascinating stuff in your research

23:38

about the benefits of habituating to small

23:41

hardships. Well,

23:43

yeah, they kind of, they had an

23:45

early version of like the

23:47

five to five sort of fasting.

23:50

Yeah, they did. Seneca in

23:52

his letters to his

23:54

moral letters to Lecilius, which is a

23:57

great book for anyone wanting a really clear. explanation

24:00

of a

24:02

lot of the elements

24:04

of stoicism. It's him writing to a

24:07

young man about stoic

24:09

lessons. And there's one letter

24:11

where he talks about fasting,

24:14

not eating much. And then

24:17

when you do eat, so if you've not eaten for

24:19

a couple of days, when you

24:22

eat a tiny portion of

24:24

food, you rejoice

24:26

because you haven't had anything. So

24:28

like a tiny portion of barley

24:31

or lentil soup or

24:33

something very plain. So

24:35

they had huge, particularly the

24:37

upper class Romans, huge feasting

24:40

culture, they were constantly like

24:42

lavish banquets. And

24:44

the stoics would say, well, expensive

24:47

food and good wine is a

24:49

preferred indifferent. It can

24:51

be taken from you at any time. You could lose

24:53

your fortune, not be able to

24:56

afford to buy food or high

24:58

quality food. So it's best

25:01

to accustom yourself to cheap food,

25:04

infrequent food, days

25:07

without food. Makes sense. So when

25:09

it does happen, like the misfortune

25:11

strikes, you have the

25:13

ataraxia, you're able to cope with it because

25:16

you've had these days of fasting. Makes perfect

25:18

sense. We'll stay there, Bridget. We're going to

25:21

come back in just a moment and talk more

25:23

in depth about some of these

25:26

extraordinary core principles held

25:28

by these amazing stoic philosophers.

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for terms. Okay,

28:30

so let's get into some of the key principles

28:32

that we need to understand if we want

28:34

to live like a stoic. I

28:37

read that negative visualization is a core practice.

28:39

I mean, to be honest, it sounds a

28:41

bit grim. What is it and

28:43

what benefit can it have in our lives? It's

28:47

a little bit grim. It's imagining

28:49

the worst. Okay. It's

28:52

just a making the worst thing. How helpful is

28:54

that to imagine the worst? I mean, aren't we

28:56

just setting ourselves up to sail? I

28:59

started doing this when I started

29:01

working on the book. I started doing

29:04

negative visualizations. It's like the opposite of

29:06

manifestation, isn't it? It is. You

29:09

don't want to manifest a negative visualization,

29:11

tell you what. But I

29:13

went too hard and I got a

29:16

lot of anxiety because I was

29:18

imagining like everyone I loved being killed

29:20

and you know, terrible

29:22

car crashes. That's awful. Why would

29:25

you do that? Well, the

29:27

point of it is you

29:29

just are meant to do it a little bit. So

29:31

say if you're visiting your

29:35

parents. My parents

29:37

are getting older and so on

29:40

the way there, just imagine that this will be

29:42

the last time you see them. They'll

29:45

die shortly after your visit. Your

29:48

visit then will be richer

29:51

is the hope because

29:53

you will be fully present with those people. So

29:56

you won't be on your phone. You

29:58

Won't be distracted. And the

30:00

whole point of this for the stoics

30:02

with to enjoy the the people in

30:04

their lives. While. They had them in

30:07

their lives that with to recognize. You

30:09

can live short, people can. Just drop dead.

30:11

We only diamond. Live in a

30:13

moment of of a friendship could

30:16

end randomly. So. You don't know

30:18

when you see your friends you don't know if

30:20

this is gonna be the last time. so trade

30:22

it treat everything as if it's gonna be the

30:24

last time and of this has an this has

30:27

a two fold affects. According. To the stoics.

30:29

The first effect is that.

30:32

The. Time that you are with them. When you're

30:34

thinking this could be the last time it's

30:36

a richard time it's be a more present

30:38

and the second thing is if it is

30:40

indeed the last time that you see them.

30:43

Use. Inoculated yourself. A little bit

30:45

of about their death so you're

30:47

not a shot. And

30:50

mister thing is. Actually, There's less

30:52

guild because. You're.

30:54

Not. Sitting. Around wailing

30:57

saying i never i should have appreciated

30:59

the moon. Because. You had

31:01

you had sort of. Thought.

31:03

About them as a foreigner person. And

31:06

acted accordingly. It's insane. A window.

31:08

Very good. All we're talking about

31:10

death and and grief in a

31:12

western cultures. And her

31:15

third season change your personal

31:17

feeling about their. Local.

31:20

I to I won't enjoy that fully. and

31:23

so. A puppet. It's yeah,

31:25

more the reality for me. I'm.

31:28

I wrote the book without having

31:30

had serious craving a my life

31:32

in i know it's a head

31:35

but friends of mine who have

31:37

lost capable very close to them.

31:40

When they asked about the stoic way

31:42

of grieving, find it very I'm. Very

31:44

inhospitable and quite a

31:46

cold approach. And they

31:48

talk about Grace is coming and weighs in at it.

31:51

It it's very hard to control so.

31:53

You know, but it's a few in I

31:56

like markets really? Us last nine out of

31:58

fourteen children. I think that home. And

32:00

actually. Cynical of the a

32:03

baby some so that they

32:05

were dealing with. Sort

32:07

of lost it. Was you know

32:09

it was much more frequent? Yeah and I

32:11

had to be of the they had failed

32:14

to get on with things you know they

32:16

had to be able to. Wake

32:18

up the next day and. Go.

32:20

About their lies. not with a stiff upper

32:22

lip, but. You. Imagine if nine

32:24

out of fourteen children die Any

32:27

you're grieving seventy as a child,

32:29

it'd be. A terrible

32:31

so yeah that. That's not to

32:33

say that there wasn't a lot of

32:35

sadness and gray for those losses,

32:37

but they didn't believe engraving. For

32:40

a really long time. You:

32:42

I'm really into he does She

32:44

By this whole. Big. Presence

32:46

and making every moment turn to the

32:48

either. It's a bit like can you

32:51

get a perv know of the finish

32:53

we're at? Totally in an aristocrat be

32:55

any reality is what we have right

32:57

now. And that there was a political

32:59

say to those know? is it with stoicism? Absolutely

33:02

Yeah, I've I've some. I've

33:05

just read the New Earth which

33:07

I really enjoyed. On of his

33:09

the of this stoicism buddhism more

33:11

sort of new age. Philosophy.

33:14

That is. there is connections all

33:16

the way through, and there's probably

33:18

some Iraq, just some universal truths.

33:20

In each of those things,

33:22

but it is absolutely and

33:24

a universal truth of that,

33:27

we we all die absolutely

33:29

and how we live our

33:31

lives. Something. That's really

33:33

worth examining. You know it was examined

33:35

in the Bible. It was examined by

33:37

the stoics. It was examined by. Only.

33:39

Other great philosophies: I'm breaking

33:41

roman philosophies and it's been

33:43

examines. You know it's just

33:45

part of human nature to.

33:48

Wanna know how to live? In.

33:50

A way that's gonna really honor the time

33:52

that we have. And. Also, cope

33:54

with. With Lawson and Death and

33:57

things like that and I think one of

33:59

the problems. in the modern world is,

34:01

as you said before,

34:03

you know, we don't really talk about

34:05

grief and death, we don't know how to, and I

34:08

feel like right now we're not

34:10

really living that well. So

34:13

we're in, I

34:15

think we're in a bit of a bad state. Yeah, I

34:17

mean, you mentioned there about time. You know,

34:20

what have you learned about time being

34:23

our most valuable resource? And

34:26

how can that understanding affect our

34:28

outlook on our actions, how we

34:30

view time? So I mean, Oliver

34:32

Berkman's got a great book, I think it's called

34:35

3000 Weeks About Time and

34:37

How We Spend It. And Seneca had

34:40

a brilliant book called On the Shortness of

34:42

Life, which is also about time. I despair

34:46

a little bit because a lot

34:48

of the systems that are in

34:51

our world like capitalism aren't

34:53

set up for letting us use and

34:55

enjoy our time in

34:58

fantastic ways. In

35:01

the UK and definitely in Australia and, you

35:03

know, in a lot of countries, there's a cost of

35:05

living crisis, people working multiple

35:07

jobs, housing is expensive.

35:10

There are all sorts of things that

35:12

make us, I guess, focus on how

35:14

to use our time to earn money

35:16

rather than use our time

35:19

to be with others. And

35:21

so until we sort that

35:23

out, it's

35:27

going to be hard. I mean, a

35:29

lot of people found, you know, people

35:31

have mixed experiences with the pandemic, but

35:33

it did give people back, if you

35:35

weren't homeschooling and you weren't an essential

35:37

worker, so those of us that

35:39

were lucky enough to be

35:42

working from home and not have caring responsibilities,

35:45

you know, gave us back some time. And

35:47

it did. And made

35:49

a lot of people reframe how

35:51

they see their life and how they spend their

35:53

time. Absolutely. I think a

35:55

lot of us have ended up with a bit more homeworking,

35:58

maybe. Yeah. What

36:00

life fun back into.

36:03

Shape pretty quickly. So

36:06

people hadn't Amazing realizations.

36:08

About. How they wanted to live. And.

36:11

Then where are we? Two or three years

36:13

later? And. I

36:15

just wonder how many people here have

36:17

been able to. Make. Permanent

36:20

changes will one of the things

36:22

that the six recommended that you

36:24

took. that is seeing the your

36:26

emotions or productive for you. think

36:28

that the world. Is

36:31

that useful? Understanding Nerves were alive today

36:33

as you things. I think

36:35

it's debatable actually, so I'm near

36:37

this. The stoics came up with

36:40

that. That. Idea thousands

36:42

of years ago prior

36:44

to Neuroscience. Prior to.

36:46

"A lot of sort of

36:49

understanding about the unconscious about

36:51

patents that run through families

36:53

and era there are emotions

36:55

we feel. Patents that

36:58

we have. That aren't as

37:00

easy to control as a stoic would

37:02

say they are. We can control a

37:04

bit. I I definitely think it's possible

37:07

to control and of. Desire.

37:09

As let desire less and

37:11

less convinced about that one

37:14

day he. Said. To

37:16

talk about being able to control

37:18

desire but I think there's a

37:20

lot of your hormones and I'm

37:22

here to so very serious things

37:24

apply their arm that wouldn't have

37:26

been on the very well understood

37:28

in the bases. They.

37:31

Probably weren't talking much but maniples where they.

37:33

But then. They definitely one arms.

37:35

They weren't talking much about women

37:37

at all. so did women. I

37:39

think this that I I think

37:42

with desire and things like that.

37:44

How I think that is I

37:46

can desire something that I have

37:48

to be aware that. Whatever

37:51

our desires out of my control

37:53

to get so it's it's bringing

37:55

it back into. That. frame

37:57

of that iraq syria com

37:59

say a fine I've got

38:01

a crush on someone and I'm

38:03

really into him and it'd be great

38:06

to be great if that was

38:08

reciprocated. And so I have desire, but

38:10

I can't control what he thinks.

38:13

So if I get let down, everyone

38:17

has been let down romantically, I'm sure. It

38:20

does feel crushing, but the

38:23

stoic lesson is to try

38:26

and move on quite quickly from those sort of

38:28

things because it's not within your control.

38:31

Desire for something like a material good, like

38:34

a better car or

38:36

a nicer house,

38:39

I think their desires that

38:41

can be tamed a bit. Yes.

38:44

I mean, coming back, I guess that expression

38:46

of preferred indifference, things that you would prefer,

38:48

but actually ultimately are

38:50

indifferent to the outcome. Absolutely.

38:54

That's a big learning for today's society

38:56

when we're encouraged to be so materialistic

38:58

and that whole notion of desire actually

39:01

is so prevalent. You have to look

39:03

at social media, look at Instagram every

39:05

single day, every minute of every day,

39:08

telling us to desire something, something more

39:10

than we have. I

39:13

guess a lot of us on social

39:15

media could learn a huge amount from

39:18

practicing a bit of stoicism here, to measure

39:20

that, to sort of kind of be, to

39:22

counter it. Because I think with

39:24

desire, you desire something and then you think,

39:26

if I get this, I'll be happy. Then

39:30

you get it and you're happy for five minutes and then

39:32

you desire the next thing. You're constantly

39:34

chasing and there's not necessarily a point

39:37

in time where you feel like

39:39

you have enough. A

39:41

lot of the stoics, Marcus Aurelius talks about taking

39:44

the view from the stars, the

39:47

view from above, which

39:49

is when you desire something or

39:51

when you want something, remove yourself,

39:54

look above. Am I just sort

39:56

of replicating a

39:58

pattern that is... right

40:00

throughout our consumer society of wanting,

40:03

getting wanting, getting wanting, getting Yeah,

40:06

when you put it like that, I mean the

40:08

stoics I guess, you know We're preferring to live

40:11

in reality rather than this kind of dream world

40:13

that we have of hopes and fears and Aspiration

40:16

it is very much about

40:18

the here and now being quite grounded

40:20

in reality Not not letting emotion play

40:23

too big a part of that. Absolutely.

40:25

I think they still had you know, they

40:27

still had Ambitions and that

40:29

they still wanted stuff, you

40:32

know, it's it's a rare person that goes through

40:34

life without wanting anything But

40:36

I think we've got to be more conscious today of

40:38

how we're marketed to we are, you know,

40:41

if we're on social media Everything is

40:44

coming at us. That's There's

40:46

far more ads on Instagram now than there was a

40:48

few years ago. Yeah, I did some

40:51

research this week on landfills from

40:54

fast fashion and it's extraordinary

40:56

the amount of clothing

40:58

waste fashion waste because people get stuff

41:00

that they buy on Instagram They only

41:02

wear it once or twice and then

41:05

it goes It goes to

41:07

a charity which can't sell it because it's falling

41:09

apart and then it goes into landfills

41:11

So it's looking at well,

41:13

what what's the cost of our desires not

41:16

just to our ourselves financially, but what's the

41:18

cost to the planet and Yeah,

41:21

I think the stoics would be they'd be appalled. They'd

41:23

be like you don't need You

41:26

don't need jackets

41:31

No, I mean above all you can use

41:33

your say in your book, you know St Encourage

41:54

me. Yeah, and I love it, you

41:56

know as part of the gratitude practice

41:58

and I think that something

42:01

that the Stoics saw as

42:03

beneficial as well, either journaling

42:05

or practicing gratitude? They

42:07

were early journalists. Marcus

42:10

Aurelius' Meditations, which is, it

42:13

should be on every bedside in

42:15

the world. It's such

42:17

an incredible book. That was his journal. It was

42:19

to himself, his

42:24

own diary that he kept when

42:26

he was out

42:28

on campaign. He would write in it

42:30

each night and it would be an

42:32

instruction to himself about his character and

42:35

death and how to deal with

42:37

his fellow human beings and how

42:39

to deal with his own appetites.

42:43

It was journaling and the fact that

42:46

we have access to that journal, I think

42:48

is extraordinary. Denica

42:51

also wrote at

42:53

night. They did it

42:55

at night because they'd reflect on the

42:57

day. They'd say, okay, so it wasn't

42:59

like it was the opposite of manifesting

43:02

where you say, today I

43:04

want to get a pay

43:06

rise or I want to get

43:08

10 compliments from strangers or whatever.

43:11

They would look back on their

43:14

day. They wouldn't necessarily write about other people.

43:16

They'd write about how did I, how did

43:18

my character go today?

43:20

In that stressful

43:23

meeting or that stressful situation, was

43:25

my temperament good? Was

43:28

I relaxed or did I get angry? How

43:31

did I behave? Because that's what they

43:34

cared about. They cared about measuring their

43:37

own character, their virtues,

43:39

not about what other people did because you

43:42

can't control other people. You

43:44

can only control yourself. That is just

43:46

such a truism, isn't it? I think

43:49

just to finish here, you

43:51

found Stoicism in 2018 and

43:54

the years since then have been

43:56

particularly uncertain and chaotic, terrifying at

43:58

times. have you

44:00

been grateful for having a very clear

44:02

set of tools during that time that

44:04

you could call upon, especially given

44:07

what's happened over the last few years? Absolutely.

44:10

I just

44:12

credit stoicism with so

44:15

much, with giving me a framework which

44:17

you can really apply from cradle to grave.

44:21

You can apply it into your relationship with

44:23

nature, your relationship with your family, money,

44:26

health. It's a bit

44:28

like, so I was brought up Catholic

44:30

and you go to Mass every Sunday and

44:32

you are given a homily or a sermon

44:34

and you are given Bible readings. Then

44:37

at school, the lessons are drummed into

44:39

again. So, stoicism

44:41

is like that. You have to keep

44:43

returning to it. You can't just read

44:45

the books once and then hope

44:47

that you'll become a certain

44:50

type of person. You have to return again and

44:52

again and again to the principles

44:55

because you forget them. You revert

44:57

back to wanting

45:01

everything, getting upset when you don't get

45:03

your own way, getting angry. So, it

45:06

has to be, I'm grateful for

45:08

it, but it is a practice.

45:11

It is a slog. Yes. Okay.

45:14

You don't just read my book and then

45:17

walk into the sunset. Read

45:22

it and action on it. Read

45:24

it and re-read it. Okay, read it

45:26

and re-read it. It's

45:29

been such a pleasure to have this

45:31

conversation. Oh, this has been great. Yeah, you have

45:33

opened, hopefully, ears and

45:36

eyes and minds to

45:38

something that, as you said, has been around

45:40

for thousands of years, but is still so

45:42

incredibly relevant today, if not

45:45

even more so. Very greatly

45:47

relevant, spookily. I'm

45:50

grateful to the Stoics. So, they're the

45:52

ones that I

45:54

just repackaged it for

45:56

my own crazy life. It

46:00

does work. A

46:02

bit of gratitude. You're going to be going into my

46:04

gratitude journal for the end of the day for sure.

46:07

Oh, thank you, Liz, and I'll journal about you as

46:09

well. What

46:11

could I have done better? But no,

46:14

it's been a pleasure. Not much. Thank you

46:16

so much for being here. Thank you. Thank

46:18

you. Oh

46:21

my gosh, what a completely fascinating

46:23

take on living well in the

46:25

21st century. All

46:28

rooted those thousands of years ago.

46:30

I love that expression. Profired indifference.

46:32

You know, that has really struck

46:35

with me. And of course, learning

46:37

a new word too, astoraxic. Yeah,

46:40

something that I am going to be

46:42

trying to live by. How about you?

46:44

Let us know. Of course, you can

46:46

comment on Instagram, particularly. That's our kind

46:48

of preferred method of communication. Keep it

46:50

kind, obviously, in the comments.

46:52

You'll find us at LizOurWellbeing

46:54

or me personally at LizOurMe.

46:56

Well, all of this has

46:58

made me think a bit of the chat that

47:01

I had with Sarah Wilson last year. She

47:03

takes herself off on hikes around the world,

47:06

following in the footsteps of philosophers

47:08

and deep thinkers in the hope

47:10

of discovering more about how she

47:12

can lead a more content and

47:14

less indulgent life. And

47:17

we had a comment here on Instagram, at

47:19

creamroses65. Enjoy that

47:21

particular episode and wrote, I

47:24

read Sarah Wilson's book, I Quit

47:26

Sugar Pre-Pandemic. So it was great

47:29

to learn more about Sarah's journey

47:31

from burnout to recovery. I

47:33

particularly enjoyed the discussion about

47:35

the importance of nourishing ourselves on

47:38

all levels in midlife. Wellness,

47:42

fun, and having a sense of purpose. That

47:45

life is a journey with a range of mountains

47:47

for us all to climb, learning

47:49

every step of the way, and

47:51

there are new adventures waiting to

47:53

be had, regardless of our age.

47:56

Yes, at creamroses65, what a

47:59

brilliant day. brilliant outlook. Well

48:01

if you haven't heard that episode do go

48:03

back and listen, it's a really interesting one

48:05

and if you subscribe to the show

48:08

on Apple Podcasts for a

48:10

very small monthly fee you can listen

48:12

to that and all future episodes are

48:15

free and we also give you early

48:17

access to new episodes so that's a

48:19

lovely little treat. Well

48:21

what do you want to know more about?

48:24

Which part of midlife are you finding

48:26

the most difficult or challenging? Do send me

48:28

an email, you can write to us now

48:30

podcast at lizelwellbeing.com. Love to

48:33

hear your thoughts on that.

48:35

So until the next time we chat, go very

48:38

well, stay stoic, goodbye. The

48:47

Lizzell Wellbeing Show is presented by

48:49

me, Lizzell, and is produced by Anishka

48:52

Tate for Fresh Air Production with

48:54

additional production support from Eddie Smith. This

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