0:00

I began to apply what I was

0:02

learning to myself, using my own mind

0:04

and body as a testing lab and

0:06

sharing my results online. My

0:09

shape changed. I lost weight,

0:11

toned up, became physically stronger,

0:13

emotionally more resilient, mentally happier

0:16

and more purposeful. My

0:18

skin changed, becoming plumper, more

0:20

toned and less saggy than before.

0:23

My hair grew back thicker and fuller,

0:25

I had to start cutting my nails

0:27

with scissors and they no longer flaked

0:29

or developed the ridges of aging. My

0:32

cellulite almost disappeared and

0:35

my sleep dramatically improved. I

0:37

began to feel as though I was

0:39

finally pulling myself out of a dulled

0:42

state of disarray, up and

0:44

out into the light, back into a world

0:46

of optimism and hope where I

0:48

felt so much better able to cope with

0:50

the challenges and tough times all of us

0:52

face all around us. As

0:55

I celebrated my 60th birthday in 2023, I became

0:57

even more aware of the passing

1:00

of time and its impact on my

1:02

physique and psyche. I asked

1:05

myself two fundamental questions. What

1:07

do I need to do for myself now

1:09

to live and age well? And two,

1:12

how best to share what works to help

1:14

others do the same? This

1:16

book is the answer to those

1:19

two simple questions. Well,

1:22

that's an extract from my new book,

1:25

A Better Second Half. I'm

1:27

Liz Al and this is the Liz

1:29

Al Wellbeing Show, the podcast with a

1:31

mission to help us all not just

1:33

survive but thrive in later life by

1:35

investing in our health and our well-being

1:38

today. And really

1:40

there is no better manifestation of all

1:42

of that than my new book and

1:44

it's taken several years in the making

1:47

and I am so delighted to be

1:49

talking about it today. Its publication day

1:51

is April the 25th and you can

1:54

pre-order it now so that arrives literally

1:56

on publication day. And I want to

1:58

take this opportunity to The To

2:00

You have a deep dive into

2:03

some of the areas that I

2:05

cover in the book, and I

2:07

am so thrilled to be joined

2:09

by the esteemed broadcaster host of

2:12

the Midpoint Podcast and fellow midlife

2:14

activist Gabi Logan. As we talk

2:16

about midlife and the Owns has

2:18

navigate a journey through it with

2:21

practical, easy and economic ways to

2:23

literally dial back or age so

2:25

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2:27

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2:30

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3:50

Liz. L It's great to meet you! Great. Be

3:52

having kids have an Susie. To chat to

3:54

you as it feel for me to be turning

3:56

the tables. It feels weird assess

3:58

I am very. nervous I think

4:00

because well you know what it's like as a podcast

4:02

host you know you're the one in control and asking

4:05

the questions and yeah I mean you can

4:08

ask me anything. Well it's all about you

4:10

so there's no trick questions. Let's go back

4:12

to know Rob answer. No exactly. Let's take

4:14

you back a little bit and find out why

4:16

you decided that you wanted first of all to

4:18

write about a second half and talk about

4:20

the beginning of your second half if you like.

4:22

Maybe go back 20 years and

4:24

tell us what was going on with you in your life

4:27

then. So 20 years ago I was

4:29

in a very different place to be really honest

4:31

with you. You know I was 40 and

4:34

just going through I guess kind

4:36

of midlife and that awful

4:38

kind of expression the sandwich generation when

4:41

I was bringing up younger children looking

4:43

after older parents running a career I

4:46

was also running an organic farm and a charity

4:48

and a big business it was before Kim and I

4:50

sold the beauty company so there was a lot going on

4:52

with that and it was just

4:55

a crazy time and I think looking back on

4:57

it I definitely have a sense that I lost

4:59

myself you know I

5:01

was somebody else's mother, wife, boss, colleague,

5:03

friend whatever but you know for me

5:05

if you'd

5:08

ask me back then what I was doing for

5:10

myself in terms of looking after my mental health,

5:12

physical health I would have looked

5:14

at you as if you were a bit kind

5:16

of crazy it's like well that's very selfish isn't

5:18

it to look after yourself and I think what

5:21

I've realized now is that self-care

5:23

is not selfish it's

5:25

a fundamental and unless

5:28

we look after ourselves we don't

5:31

have full capacity to look after other people so you

5:33

know it's like this on a plane isn't it you

5:35

know put on your own mask before helping somebody else

5:37

because then you're better able to help and

5:40

so I think my life was very

5:43

different I was definitely very low down

5:45

on my own priority list I

5:47

probably didn't even feature on it at all and

5:49

I didn't realize the importance of kind of moving

5:51

myself up a little bit so

5:53

I could be better equipped to be there

5:55

for others as well as for myself so

5:58

in terms of the physical manifestation that.

6:00

What was going on with your

6:02

body? So I was beginning

6:04

to be perimenopausal, I guess certainly by

6:06

mid-40s, but I didn't know it. It's

6:10

crazy, isn't it, having worked in the world of

6:12

wellness for more than 30 years, I hadn't

6:14

even heard the term perimenopause. And

6:18

I've had five children, so I've had

6:20

five dealings with obstetricians,

6:23

midwives, health visitors,

6:26

Guyanese, all of that. At no point did anybody

6:28

ever say to me, do you know what it

6:30

is? When you get into your 40s, chances are

6:32

that you'll begin to feel a bit different, you

6:34

may have low mood, you may have some anxiety,

6:37

you may have difficulty sleeping. That's completely normal. Your

6:39

estrogen levels will be fluctuating and come to us

6:41

and we can talk about it and we can

6:43

work out a way to help you. At

6:46

no point did anybody say that. So

6:48

when I started to get perimenopausal

6:50

symptoms, I never had a hot

6:53

flush ever, but I had

6:55

issues sleeping, I did have

6:57

anxiety looking back and stress. I thought it

6:59

was just a busy life. I

7:01

thought the reason I didn't sleep was

7:03

because I was busy, I was stressed. Had you

7:05

always been a good sleeper that suddenly became an

7:08

erratic sleeper or was sleep a problem? Yeah, I

7:10

think I've always been a good sleeper and certainly

7:12

a very good sleeper now, thankfully. So I

7:14

think it was a shock, but it

7:16

was at a time when I was

7:19

living on adrenaline, work was

7:21

busy, Kim and I were selling the beauty

7:23

company, I was on a lot of transatlantic

7:25

flights, I was living on caffeine and

7:27

cocktails and late nights and all of the bad stuff.

7:29

It's been for a while, it doesn't work well for

7:31

long term. Exactly, and you

7:33

know my marriage was kind of falling

7:35

apart and the kids were early

7:39

teens, stressy, pushing boundaries. Their own

7:41

hormones going on? It's their hormones,

7:43

my hormones, so it was a

7:45

fairly potent mixture going on in

7:47

the house and I

7:49

got a lot of headaches, really splitting headaches

7:51

I would always travel with ibuprofen in my

7:53

bag. And again,

7:55

the minute I realised

7:58

that it was due to lower estrogen, like, life

8:00

completely changed, but it was not a happy

8:03

time looking back. And I was

8:05

probably drinking too much alcohol, staying

8:08

up too late, waking myself up in the morning

8:10

with strong cups of coffee and

8:12

not doing any of the things that

8:14

I talk about now that have made such a

8:16

difference, which is why I'm so keen to promote

8:18

the book because I think there are a

8:21

lot of women out there who are probably in the same

8:23

situation or similar or who can relate. And

8:25

I'm not a gym bunny. I'm not

8:27

a crazy, you know, I've never been an athlete. I've

8:30

always been, you know, the last to be picked for

8:32

any team. I'm not a

8:34

sports person and those kind of

8:36

things that don't come naturally to me. So

8:38

I've had to find very small, easy things

8:40

I can fit into my life as a

8:42

midlife woman. And to be really honest with

8:44

you, I feel

8:46

better, fitter, happier, stronger now

8:48

at 60, soon to

8:51

be 61 than I

8:53

think at any other point in my life.

8:55

That's incredible, isn't it? And is there a

8:57

bit of you that thinks, oh, I wish

8:59

I'd had those tools a bit

9:02

earlier. I should have known a little

9:04

bit more. I'd like to shortcut everybody else, maybe

9:06

in your 30s, 40s, 50s. A,

9:08

it's never too late anyway. So I mean, I buy

9:10

a hack my mum and she's late 80s. You

9:13

know, I'm always turning up with the latest things.

9:15

She's currently on Lion's Mane and Crea-Teen. And,

9:18

you know, I put her on it back

9:20

on HRT in her 80s because she was

9:22

having issues sleeping. So, you know, it is

9:24

never too late to make a difference. But

9:26

obviously, the early you can do it, very

9:28

keen for my daughters, for example, to read

9:30

this book. So they don't actually then end

9:32

up feeling that they've fallen so far

9:34

away that it's a struggle to get back on

9:36

track. But yeah, I think there

9:39

is a bit of me that thinks

9:41

I wish I'd known about this sooner. But

9:43

I think you can't look back. No point that you

9:45

can only look forward so much. And you

9:47

did you have trouble with UTIs as

9:50

well? Yes, absolutely. So and again, I

9:52

didn't realize that my UTIs were a

9:54

result of lowered estrogen. So

9:56

I was on kind of nuclear

9:59

strength antibiotics. quite a long time. That's

10:01

not good either. Not good. I've been writing a book

10:03

on gut health. What is this?

10:06

And I had very invasive, I had like

10:08

vaginal ultrasound scans and all sorts because nobody

10:10

could figure out what was going wrong. And

10:13

I saw a top

10:15

Harley Street gynecologist who

10:17

just prescribed antibiotics and

10:19

scans. And again,

10:22

at no point did somebody say just

10:24

have some vaginal estrogen and they'll go

10:27

away. And lo, I did. And

10:29

they did. And they've never been an issue since. And

10:32

again, I feel really strongly that women need to know

10:34

about this stuff because it's simple, safe and effective. So

10:37

you say as you sit here on the precipice

10:39

of your 61st birthday, that you actually feel

10:41

as good as you ever have. Yeah.

10:43

And how you feel about yourself is aligned

10:45

with that. I think so. You know,

10:47

I'm, I'm sitting here, for example,

10:49

in a in a sleeveless dress. And

10:52

I would not have done that even in my twenties,

10:55

because I had no definition. I had no

10:57

tone and strength in my arms. I think

10:59

back in the day I joined a gym,

11:01

I used to go and do step classes

11:03

and like Jane Fonda style aerobics. It

11:06

was never anything about strength or tone

11:08

or weight resistance exercises. Now I just

11:10

do 10 minutes in the morning of

11:12

a few pushups or maybe, you know,

11:14

a few bicep curls with some dumbbells

11:16

I happen to keep under my bed.

11:19

And those kinds of things have changed my shape

11:21

and given me more tone. And

11:24

I'm probably heavier. I get on the

11:26

scales, I can give myself a bit

11:28

of a fright because I am quite heavy, which

11:30

is why I'm very against things like BMI tables.

11:33

Because according to a BMI metric,

11:35

you know, I'm overweight because I'm

11:37

heavy. But I have a

11:39

lot of muscle and obviously muscle weighs heavier than

11:41

fat. And it's so important resistance training for all of

11:43

us once you get beyond the age of 30 in

11:46

terms of the way we retain muscle becomes

11:48

so much harder. And it is important for

11:50

the strength of our skeleton and the strength

11:52

of our bones. And thankfully,

11:54

there seems to be a societal shift

11:57

in understanding that women who do weights

11:59

don't necessarily want to enter Mrs.

12:01

Universe, because I think that was the kind of

12:03

80s paranoia, wasn't it? Yeah,

12:06

and we're not going to bulk. No, you're going to have

12:08

to spend your life eating protein and nothing else, aren't you,

12:11

if you're going to do that? Yeah, no, it's... I

12:14

wish I'd learnt that earlier, actually. But

12:17

yes, I feel more confident in myself. Maybe I

12:19

also feel happier. But I think when

12:21

you get older, you have the wisdom and the experience

12:23

as well, which is helpful in terms

12:26

of confidence. When you reach a stage in life, hopefully

12:28

when you know who you are,

12:30

you have your group of friends, you know how you

12:32

like to dress, where you like to live, how you like

12:34

to spend your day, your time, maybe

12:37

having a bit more time. My children

12:39

are older now, so mostly

12:41

selfishly, quite highly. They

12:44

call them the boomerang generation, don't they? They keep

12:46

coming back, you know, if they can. But they're

12:48

a good company now, and rather than being...

12:50

You don't have to drive them around everywhere, you

12:52

don't have to kind of be responsible for their

12:54

routines in their life. Yeah, my son has just

12:57

passed his driving test, he now drives me, which

12:59

is excellent. Always lovely when you get those bonus.

13:01

I sometimes have to slip a McKenna because they

13:03

tell me how great the petrol is. That's true.

13:06

But generally, it's good. It's a fun

13:08

time, isn't it, when your kids start getting their

13:10

wings and they're flying off. And

13:12

that adds, I think, to confidence as well.

13:14

Yeah, and just having these open and

13:17

honest conversations with them. And actually, one

13:19

of the key things that I

13:21

learnt through my daughters was

13:23

the art of journaling. And

13:26

they're very... I think the younger generation are

13:28

quite aware of mental health, because I think so many

13:30

of them have been so badly affected by it, you

13:32

know, particularly after lockdowns and all of that, that

13:34

they are aware of the practices that they need to

13:36

do that are helpful. And I

13:39

used to think that when I would see them doing

13:41

their journals, I used to think, oh, that's very sweet,

13:43

you know, doing their little writings. And so, he'd been

13:45

a bit dismissive of it. And then I started to

13:47

keep a gratitude journal for myself. And

13:50

oh my gosh, the difference it's made.

13:52

Just writing those few lines in the

13:54

morning Sets you up for

13:56

the day. What are you grateful for? I Mean, I mean,

13:58

so much. If you go

14:00

and bracelet that I I woke up, there is

14:03

the first things he said: "I'm not in pain,

14:05

I have a safe bet to sleep and I've.

14:07

Mortar. That comes out of the tap and

14:09

the sun is shining. I can hear the birds

14:11

my eyes work my his work in. The

14:14

so much in that just puts you in

14:16

that right frame of mind right from the

14:18

get go. the minute you put foot as

14:21

at a flat you do that before you

14:23

even get up at am sometimes or I

14:25

take my journal with me and and step

14:27

outside that you see the first first I

14:29

get those day those natural on a brave

14:31

that sunlight lots of yeah an early night.

14:33

a fat know what I do is I

14:35

don't turn my phone on, I don't even

14:37

switch. The lights on. Until. I

14:39

seem proper light outside and if I

14:42

can't physically guess outsize, I would just

14:44

open a window make sure that I

14:46

can see my eyes. This retinal cells

14:48

get proper daylight and hopefully I'm not

14:51

not really a morning person a tool

14:53

but getting up close to two Daybreak

14:55

said you get more was a near

14:57

infrared rather than the easy and that's

14:59

to setting up the hormonal rhythms of

15:02

the day is I think really important

15:04

to you know your biological h. Media

15:07

different to the chronological. It is and

15:09

this is a really interesting point. So especially

15:11

cause I have a much younger boyfriend and

15:13

I ask nicely. T says that this because

15:15

my biological age what depends how you test

15:17

that there are lots of different methods of

15:19

testing. It's that one test I did. I

15:21

came as a sassy nine More recently I

15:23

tested at Forty Five which has a bit

15:25

peeved about Canada so wanted to be like

15:27

in my thirties had a farina. He did

15:29

point out the being sixteen years younger is

15:32

is not bad though, but I think there

15:34

are ways that we can dial it down.

15:36

So I did something called of like an

15:38

Aids test. Which put me at forty five

15:40

which to do is basically stupid inflammation everybody

15:42

long as in the and and is our

15:44

blood tests. That's a blood test really simple

15:47

and that very profound knew him what they're

15:49

testing for and I'm doing various just she's

15:51

at the moment which I'm hoping we'll dial

15:53

it back say when I read test may

15:55

be in six months or so. Hopefully I'll

15:58

be younger than forty five because. The inflammation

16:00

markers, as people might know, are so important,

16:02

aren't they, in terms of pre-determining

16:05

variations of the illnesses, and they can tell us

16:07

about things that are wrong in our body currently

16:09

that we might not be aware of? And

16:11

I think having that as a yardstick is

16:14

really useful as a tool, because

16:16

sometimes you can do that test and you're

16:18

actually, on a cellular level, you're older than

16:21

your chronological age. So...

16:23

Not good. That's not good at all. And I

16:26

think, you know, when we think about aging, what

16:28

really matters is our biological age. It's

16:32

how old our cells are, what the age

16:34

response is of our cells, because that determines

16:36

how well we age and

16:38

our propensity to get

16:40

the degenerative disease, also, you know, have mental

16:42

incapacity and all of that, which of course

16:44

we want to avoid. So

16:46

it's not really how many years you've

16:48

lived on the planet. It's kind of

16:51

how old your cells say you are. Yeah,

16:53

and it's not also, I think it's really

16:55

important, isn't it, to detach it from an

16:57

obsession with kind of a useful appearance? It's

17:00

a byproduct, obviously, if you're looking after

17:02

yourself, that you will look healthier and

17:05

better. But actually, it's as you

17:07

get to this age in these years, you want to

17:09

have the best quality of life, don't you?

17:12

It's about... People talk about health span rather

17:14

than age span, and I think that's increasingly

17:16

a metric that we're going to be looking

17:18

at. And it's like, how healthy are you?

17:21

How fit are you? How are you feeling about staying strong? It's

17:24

like, you know, I don't think of my body

17:26

now in terms of slimness. It's

17:29

much more to do with strength and,

17:31

you know, how much I can lift,

17:34

you know, how many push-ups I can do or

17:36

how far I can walk. It's so empowering.

17:39

It's really empowering. Feeling physically

17:41

strong, I think, makes you

17:43

feel mentally and emotionally better able to

17:46

cope with all that stuff

17:49

that life chucks at. You might not have to

17:51

lift a sofa over your head, but you never

17:53

know where you're going to do. You never know.

17:55

So I read something that somebody who's in the

17:58

similar age bracket saying the reason they're carrying on

18:00

weightlifting is because they want to keep moving their own

18:02

furniture around. I don't know if this person's got an

18:04

obsession with moving the furniture. Yeah. Yeah. I don't

18:06

want to have to get a man in. No.

18:08

To move my furniture. No, I absolutely right. Yeah,

18:10

love that. Arms looking in great shape, loving the

18:12

resistance training. What else do you

18:15

do to keep the body fine?

18:17

I try and remember to move more. So

18:20

I have quite a sedentary job because

18:23

I spend a lot of time

18:25

researching, writing, sitting at a desk,

18:28

podcasting, sitting, you know, all of that.

18:31

And so I try and remember every hour

18:33

at least to get up and

18:35

walk around and move my body and also

18:37

vary the things that I do. So I

18:39

think that one of the things I've learned

18:41

is that the body loves variety. So

18:44

I go for a long walk one morning or

18:46

a short run the next day or a

18:48

yoga class the following day or a few

18:50

weights the next day, following

18:53

day, maybe some squats and some push ups.

18:55

So every day in the week I try

18:57

and do something that's a little bit different

19:00

to use different muscle groups, you

19:02

know, to get your fast twitch and

19:04

your slow twitch fibers and

19:06

some of its weight bearing, some of its

19:08

more endurance and resistance, some of its quite

19:11

short explosive bursts like a quick sprint and

19:13

then a walk and then a quick sprint.

19:15

And you say you're not an athlete. I'm

19:17

seriously not an athlete. So

19:19

this is all under the umbrella

19:21

of epigenetics. Yes, this area of

19:23

looking at markers in the body to

19:26

get the biological age. And it's

19:28

an area that you feel is going to

19:30

become more and more important. Definitely. And I kind

19:32

of start the book off actually talking

19:34

about epigenetics, which I think is an

19:36

amazing branch of science, because if you

19:38

think about genetics, we

19:41

are dealt our genes at birth. We

19:43

can't control our genes. That's who we are.

19:46

That's our genetic makeup. But

19:48

the epigenetic bit is how

19:50

we express those genes, the

19:53

gene expression. So I liken

19:55

it to a deck of cards. You get dealt the

19:57

cards from the deck and those are your genes. But

20:00

how you play those cards depends on

20:02

the outcome. And there's a lot that

20:04

we can do to influence. So

20:07

even if you've not been dealt a

20:09

great hand, and many of

20:11

us aren't, you can still

20:13

play really well. And you can still

20:15

improve your life and make a difference. Could be

20:17

through supplements that you need to take to

20:19

help you, or it could be through reducing

20:22

things in your lifestyle, the

20:24

kinds of foods that you are better

20:26

suited to eating. No

20:29

kind of one size fits all in

20:31

terms of diet, although there are general

20:33

rules, generally high protein, low carb is

20:35

generally what works for

20:37

pretty much everybody. But

20:39

yes, things like your tolerance to

20:42

alcohol or caffeine, for example, will be

20:44

down to your genes. You mentioned alcohol

20:46

before. Was it through doing the testing

20:48

that you decided not to

20:50

drink alcohol? No, I

20:52

was actually going out with somebody who was teetotal. And

20:56

I thought, do you know what? I'd been to a

20:58

fasting clinic and didn't

21:01

drink, obviously, because I didn't even eat. Didn't

21:03

know what was going on there, let

21:06

alone any alcohol. And I did feel better for it.

21:08

And I think coming out of lockdown, where I think

21:11

so many of us actually probably drank a bit more

21:13

than we should have done, I was certainly

21:15

guilty of that. And thinking,

21:18

I just need to probably get on top

21:20

of this. And I did feel

21:22

good, but I actually now, I

21:24

do, I have gone back to drinking alcohol, and

21:26

I don't drink that much. I'm

21:28

quite selective about what I drink. I

21:31

drink red wine, but I filter it. I use a

21:33

sulfite filter to get rid of the sulfites because they

21:35

don't make me feel so great in the morning. Or

21:38

I'll drink something like vodka or tequila, which

21:40

are very kind of clean spirits, with

21:43

a bit of soda water or a bit of tonic

21:45

water or maybe a little bit of juice

21:47

or kombucha. I love a kombucha

21:49

martini, because then you get the probiotic benefit

21:51

of the kombucha with just that little hint

21:54

of vodka. And

21:56

that, as you get older, people will

21:59

observe, won't they? the way

22:01

alcohol makes them feel is

22:03

different. And again, this is

22:05

all part of the hormonal

22:07

journey. Definitely. Perimenopause, estrogen affecting

22:09

how we process alcohol. I'm

22:12

quite fortunate in that I've had all

22:14

my liver enzymes checked, and I do

22:16

process alcohol very well, which

22:19

is a good thing because my body is able to

22:21

cope with it. But also, it probably means that I

22:23

feel sometimes that I can get away with it a

22:25

bit more than I should. And

22:27

again, that's a personal thing. And some people can

22:29

process alcohol better than others. So I think it's

22:31

about learning your limits and then

22:34

living within those parameters. You realize what

22:36

your body will let you do and

22:39

the things that it doesn't like to do.

22:41

Well, sometimes you found those things out naturally,

22:43

and then a test might confirm for you.

22:45

My husband stopped drinking coffee because it didn't

22:47

make him feel good. And when he had

22:49

his testing done, he was very badly kind

22:52

of really, advised that he shouldn't be drinking

22:54

coffee. He shouldn't drink coffee. And he'd already

22:56

stopped. But he didn't know why.

22:59

It's a gene expression. Fantastic.

23:02

So I have two gene

23:04

responses to caffeine. I have a very strong

23:07

response to caffeine, which is why I love

23:09

it, because my body goes, oh, yes, this

23:11

is great. I get up and

23:13

I have my caffeine fixed in the morning, but

23:15

I don't process the caffeine that well. So therefore,

23:17

I stop at lunch. So

23:19

I've got that kind of 10 to 12 hour

23:21

window to get it processed out of my

23:24

system before going to bed. But other people

23:26

can... They can find. They

23:28

can process it. And some

23:30

people just don't like the taste of it, but it's amazing how

23:32

something so simple, seemingly so

23:34

simple, has such a different effect on it. What

23:37

other lifestyle changes have you made through the

23:39

results of your testing? So

23:42

I take a supplement called glutathione

23:44

now. And this was fascinating, actually,

23:46

because about a third of us in the

23:49

UK can't

23:51

make glutathione through our

23:53

genetic response. So basically,

23:55

glutathione is an amazing nutrient.

23:57

I'm amazed that actually we don't know more about

23:59

it. You know, we hear all about vitamin C and

24:01

our B vitamins and all of that. But

24:03

glutathione is the master antioxidant and we

24:05

make it in the body. So we

24:07

make it from other antioxidants, things like

24:10

vitamin C or beta-carotene or

24:12

whatever. But about a third of us,

24:14

myself included, can't make

24:16

glutathione. So that was

24:18

a shock to me. I thought, well, what is glutathione and

24:20

why can't I make it? You

24:22

know, so as soon as I got the

24:24

results back, I went out and I bought

24:26

some liposomal glutathione and I took

24:28

some that evening and I swear to you, Gabby,

24:31

I woke up the next morning feeling changed.

24:34

I felt like somebody had put new batteries

24:36

in me and I was bright-eyed and full

24:38

of beans in a way that I hadn't

24:41

felt. And

24:44

it was because my body was

24:46

responding to being given premade glutathione. So

24:49

I now take glutathione every

24:51

night. And generally, the

24:54

glutathione in the marketplace is

24:56

generally typical for what those

24:58

two-thirds of the population who've already got

25:00

it inside them. Is it as

25:02

close biologically as that? Yeah, absolutely. And

25:05

the best form to take is liposomal,

25:07

meaning it's encapsulated in these little

25:09

tiny lipid bubbles that slip into your

25:11

cells so you don't digest it

25:14

through the gut where they can get

25:16

broken down and maybe not absorbed. So

25:18

it's lost, basically lost in transit. And

25:21

you don't actually need an expensive genetic test to

25:23

tell you. I would say

25:25

to anybody, if you're feeling low in energy

25:28

and you need a bit of a vavum,

25:31

try a bit of glutathione. And

25:34

if it makes you feel better, the chances are

25:36

that you're somebody who's got that genetic variance that

25:38

means that you need it. And

25:41

I remember asking the nutritionist at the time,

25:43

how come I got away with it for

25:45

so long if it's so fundamental? And

25:48

she said, well, you eat really well,

25:50

you're eating lots of other antioxidants, so

25:52

your body is running on those, and

25:54

that's fine. So you feel well. But

25:57

it's funny, when you feel well and then suddenly you

25:59

feel... even better, you don't realise how

26:01

much better you can feel. I think

26:04

that's the really empowering thing with all of

26:06

this is even people, you know, listening today

26:08

or watching today will think, yeah,

26:10

but I know I feel okay. And

26:13

you go, okay, that's great. But how much

26:15

better can we feel? It's about not about

26:17

just sorting out any

26:19

potential deficiencies. It's about

26:21

optimising so that we feel better than

26:24

ever, and really

26:26

have more energy than we

26:28

know what to do with. We're just so

26:31

raring to go and full of life and

26:33

vigour and strength. And so this is something

26:35

that came directly from the results of those

26:38

tests. It was. Any other lifestyle

26:40

changes? Avoiding

26:42

caffeine, definitely. I'm also

26:45

genetically a night owl,

26:48

which I kind of knew, because I'm really happy working

26:50

late into the small hours. But

26:52

that's not good for us. It's not good for your

26:54

circadian rhythm and I know all these things. I know

26:57

I should be getting up and watching daybreak and I

26:59

naturally don't do that. So,

27:01

you know, I'm just aware, I

27:03

guess I'm a bit gentler with myself because

27:05

I understand that genetically my body is

27:07

saying, you really ought to be staying in

27:09

bed. But yeah, I know that

27:11

my brain needs to say to my body, actually,

27:13

I'm sorry, love, but you've got to get up

27:15

now because we need to go and watch the

27:17

sunrise. So

27:20

you've given yourself a little bit, cut yourself a

27:22

bit of slack, but also said, no, this

27:25

is much better for me. You see the results

27:27

of that. I need to override my genes.

27:29

And I guess that's what you can do

27:31

when you understand genetically how your body's operating.

27:34

You can then stress it a bit because you know

27:36

that that's the right thing to do. Let's talk, shall

27:38

we, about food, which, you

27:41

know, this is an area that I think people have been

27:43

listening to you talk about food and the importance of our

27:45

diets for a very long time. Since you're

27:47

about 28, you wrote Vital Oil. I

27:49

did. Yeah. Remind everybody

27:51

what that book was about. So this

27:54

really, Vital Oil was my first book

27:56

and it came out two things really.

27:58

One, I had very bad air. as

28:00

a child, as a teenager. And

28:03

I was given a lot of prescription steroids and

28:05

I thought that the only way to control it

28:07

was to put a topical engine on my skin.

28:10

Then I interviewed a naturopath who said, well, no,

28:12

you need to look at your diet and have

28:14

lots of healthy fats. And this

28:16

was at a time when everybody was talking about

28:18

low fat, low fat, no fat, even

28:20

strip everything, all the fats and all that. The

28:22

diet was all about your low fat yogurt and

28:24

all of this. And anyway,

28:27

so I went on a relatively high

28:29

fat diet, started taking oil supplements like

28:31

even primrose oil, using extra virgin olive

28:33

oil, and low my skin

28:36

transformed. And for me, it was a real

28:38

light bulb moment. It was that

28:40

real connection that we make skin cells from within.

28:42

It's not just what we put on the skin,

28:44

it's what we put in. And

28:47

that led to me writing vital oils,

28:49

which was counterculture because everybody was saying,

28:51

take fat out of the diet. And

28:53

of course, if you do that, your

28:56

skin falls apart. But also we need

28:58

healthy fats for our hormones and for

29:00

brain health in our brain is the

29:02

majority is fat in our brain, EPA

29:05

and DHA, the omega 3s. So

29:07

we need these good healthy fats.

29:09

And I was one of

29:12

the first to write about the dangers of trans

29:14

fats, for example, and hydrogenated fat. I

29:16

was nearly sued by a major

29:19

margarine manufacturer for daring to suggest

29:21

that the margarine

29:24

that comes in a yellow pack with sunflowers on

29:26

it, you know, was

29:28

potentially unhealthy. And now

29:31

of course, they've taken all the trans fats

29:33

out, which is good. But at the time

29:35

it was, you know, I was seen as

29:37

a bit of a maverick, somebody who was,

29:39

you know, too far out there and they

29:41

know who are you and what are

29:44

you talking about. And now of course,

29:46

we understand everyone's talking about pro-inflammatory seed

29:48

oils and the dangers of hardening hydrogenating

29:51

fats. And that actually sugars are the

29:53

bad guys, not fats. Yeah. And so

29:55

from there, you presumably kind of had

29:58

differing relationships with carbohydrates and protein. and

30:00

we find you today somebody with a fairly high

30:02

protein diet. Yeah, yeah high protein. In fact, I

30:05

find it hard to get enough protein. I try

30:07

and eat 90 grams of protein a day and

30:11

that's hard because I tend to only eat two

30:13

meals a day. I don't really do breakfast. So

30:16

I tend to do brunch and

30:18

then dinner and

30:20

I find that if I do high fat high protein,

30:23

I don't snack. In the off I don't get

30:25

hungry. That's you know those foods fill me up.

30:27

It's the carbs that give you the sugar crashes

30:29

and I

30:31

mean all the very things that we would have grown

30:33

up people saying were breakfast foods and you look back

30:35

now and think the most terrible things

30:37

to be putting in your body. Oh Mr Kellogg

30:40

has done a great job. You

30:42

know to get up and you must have a bowl of

30:44

cereal or a piece of toast or something before we know

30:46

getting on with your day. Nonsense.

30:48

Yeah, and then wondering why at 10.30 you

30:50

feel like going back to bed and eating

30:52

fresh sugar and snacks. Or eating yet

30:54

more snacks. And the whole snack culture.

30:57

Mm-hmm. Everywhere you go you're surrounded

30:59

by snacks and it's become kind of

31:01

normal to grab a snack. You know every time you

31:04

stop at a petrol station or you catch a train

31:06

or whatever it's there isn't it right in front of

31:08

you? Snack snack snack and actually

31:10

we know that we need to have proper

31:12

gaps between our meals and not snack to

31:15

rest the gut and just eat those

31:18

full meals and avoid snacking. Just

31:20

before we take a break you mentioned the gut

31:22

and I know gut health has also been a

31:24

big part of your nutritional journey and you've

31:27

written about that as well. Yeah. Would you say

31:29

that is kind of at the forefront of your

31:31

mind when you're thinking about food how it

31:33

affects your gut? I definitely make

31:35

sure that I eat a lot of fermented

31:38

foods. So for example

31:40

I had a shake this morning. I knew I was rushing. It

31:42

was a busy day. So and I wasn't gonna get much protein

31:44

in so I made a high protein shake, but

31:46

I put extra kefir in it for my gut. So

31:49

I do tend to look at my food throughout the

31:51

day and think have I supported my gut? Have

31:54

I had enough plant fiber? Have

31:57

I had some probiotics or some prebiotics?

32:00

things that contain Inulin, for example, that will feed

32:02

my gut bugs. And have

32:04

I had my Kefir and Kombucha to support my

32:06

gut? And anybody listening who is

32:08

new to gut health and is wondering kind

32:10

of how they can support themselves. What would

32:13

be so? Yeah, really, super easy. You know,

32:15

take it slow. That's the key thing. Because

32:17

if your gut has not been used, your

32:19

lovely gut microbes have not been used to

32:21

getting all this beneficial bacteria, you can, it

32:23

can be a bit explosive. You know, you

32:25

can get a bit of bloating and some

32:28

diarrhea and all that while your system settles

32:30

down. So take it slowly. I would say

32:32

the first thing to do is to buy

32:34

some Kefir and widely available

32:37

in every supermarket. You don't

32:39

have to get the expensive kind of designery kind.

32:41

If you go to the pollist section of the

32:43

supermarket, you can buy these big litre containers of

32:45

Kefir for not very much. And

32:48

just start with a small glass full in

32:50

the morning and see how good you feel.

32:52

Why don't we pause there, have a quick

32:55

break. And when we come back,

32:57

we'll talk about sex and medical

32:59

and identity as we

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35:25

shall we kick

35:30

off with menopause? We've

35:32

touched on it quite a bit actually, because

35:34

it comes into so many areas of women's

35:36

life. Yeah, for midlife, you can't get away

35:38

from the M word. No, I,

35:41

like you, had no idea, and I think I'm 10

35:43

years behind you in terms of age. That's

35:47

chronological age. Yeah, but I

35:49

had no idea what the

35:51

word perimenopause meant until a friend of mine, who's about a

35:53

year older than me, mentioned it. And probably

35:55

like you thought, the menopause was something

35:57

we'd seen in sitcoms where the woman had thoughts.

36:00

of hot flashes and you know, oh, I didn't have

36:02

any of that. But then there

36:04

was a eureka moment on my podcast when

36:06

I guess I started talking about these slightly

36:08

less obvious symptoms that, oh my gosh, I'm

36:10

ticking all of these boxes. So what were

36:13

your issues? Just a little

36:15

bit more ratty. Yeah, I know

36:17

that one. Finding

36:19

I had short fuse and

36:21

patience with things that previously I would have had

36:23

a little bit more time for, usually my kids.

36:26

They bore the brunt of that I would think probably

36:28

because you kind of put a mask on, don't

36:31

you, when you're in other situations. Feeling

36:33

that things were a bit, yeah, you

36:35

know, nothing seemed to give me the

36:37

joy. That flatness. Yeah, it's really that

36:40

I think one of the most awful things actually

36:42

is this numbness, the lack of

36:45

joy. And it is that feeling

36:47

flat. And that's why so

36:49

many women I think have prescribed antidepressants. And

36:52

actually, there's no clinical evidence to show

36:55

that an antidepressant will help menopausal low

36:57

mood caused by low estrogen.

36:59

The only thing that's going to help is estrogen

37:01

because that's what your brain receptors are lacking. That's

37:03

why you feel bad. And that's why you need

37:05

to top it back up. And of

37:07

course, if you're for the first time in your life

37:10

experiencing that, because I'd always consider myself somebody that was,

37:12

you know, well, basically my life

37:14

exercise and eating well seem to have always been

37:16

my panacea, basically, you know, so I did joy.

37:18

Well, those things weren't giving me any joy, you

37:20

know, that the exercise, the endorphins didn't seem to

37:23

be helping me in the way that they had

37:25

in the past. So that was when I started

37:27

to think, well, there's maybe other symptoms I hadn't

37:29

heard of, you know, and then you start investigating

37:32

and reading and realizing there's a whole host. Oh,

37:35

I think I've listed 45 in the book,

37:37

but that there are more. And actually,

37:39

one of the surprising symptoms for me, which you

37:41

know, I'd love people to be more aware of

37:44

is that the curricular changes in the

37:46

ear, because I started to get tinnitus.

37:49

And I was really scared that this was

37:51

going to be like a lifelong diagnosis for

37:53

me. I've never heard of that

37:55

before. Yeah. And it can also

37:58

disrupt your kind of vestibular

38:00

balance. So women

38:03

get vertigo, dizziness, and

38:06

it's because we have estrogen

38:08

receptors in our ears. Like

38:10

everywhere. Exactly. And for

38:13

me, I didn't realise, I'd probably been

38:15

on HRT for about a year, and

38:17

I suddenly realised, I don't have any

38:19

more ringing in my ears. And

38:22

then I looked into it and I was talking to Dr

38:24

Louise Newsom, and we in fact did

38:26

a podcast about it. And so yeah, it's really

38:28

common. It's really common that tinnitus, and

38:31

again, talking to audiologist and

38:34

hearing clinics, how many women,

38:36

midlife women, go to

38:38

their doctor suffering from tinnitus, or go to a

38:40

hearing aid clinic or whatever, with hearing

38:43

disturbances or hearing loss even, and

38:46

nobody's joining the dots. It's the same with

38:48

dentistry. I was talking to a dentist about

38:50

what the changes that happen in the mouth,

38:53

because we lose estrogen from our gums.

38:56

And then the teeth, tooth sensitivity, and

38:59

gum receding, and all of that. And

39:01

it's like, this is a short sign

39:03

that you need to replace your estrogen

39:05

if you're going to keep healthy mouth

39:07

and teeth and gums. Many

39:10

areas, aren't there, that estrogen can

39:12

help? Every area. But

39:14

very few recognise in

39:17

the nice guidelines, which has led to some confusion.

39:19

And women get bombarded in many

39:21

ways. And nowadays, I mean, it didn't used to

39:23

be like that, but with different messages about whether

39:25

they should, they shouldn't. And the thing that I

39:27

don't know about you that comes through people

39:30

who write into me through my podcast, the kind

39:32

of questions they want to ask the experts who

39:34

come on, overriding one always seems

39:36

to be, should I, you

39:39

know, it's this real kind

39:41

of reticence. In some ways, it's almost I compared

39:43

it at the very beginning of doing a

39:45

podcast on midlife to going back to baby

39:47

days when people were really nervous about

39:49

any kind of pain relief in childbirth,

39:52

and how somehow they were letting the

39:54

side down if they did. And it

39:56

feels a bit like we're going through

39:58

that with HRT, that somehow I'm I've got

40:00

to battle through this. Do

40:02

you know, you would not say to a diabetic,

40:04

do you know, I really think you should try

40:06

and avoid the insulin. You know, I

40:09

think you should just, you know, maybe

40:11

have a nap in the afternoon, have a lie down, and

40:14

let's do some, you know, CBT, cognitive

40:17

behavioral therapy and some breath work. You

40:19

know, you just wouldn't say that, would you? No. And

40:22

you wouldn't say that to somebody who needed thyroxine.

40:24

You know, had a thyroid issue. These are hormones.

40:27

And so why, you would say to

40:29

a woman who's losing her oestrogen in

40:31

midlife, suffering often

40:33

debilitating crippling health symptoms.

40:36

Oh, I don't think you should have your hormones back. I

40:39

mean, it's just ridiculous. It's so antiquated.

40:42

And I write actually

40:44

in the book, in one of the

40:47

chapters, I write about the patriarchal medical

40:49

system. And you only

40:51

have to not go back very far to realize that

40:54

most modern prescription drugs have never been

40:56

tested on women. So

40:59

how do they work with our own oestrogen

41:01

levels? Well, I've got no idea, never tested

41:03

them. So it seems a

41:05

sort of women's issues that

41:09

it's all to do with periods. Just because you're 1%

41:11

of the women. Exactly,

41:13

only just over half population, you know,

41:15

and doctors aren't trained,

41:18

even in medical school, you know, you might get a

41:20

couple of hours if you're lucky. And

41:23

they spend a lot of time studying obstetrics and

41:25

postnatal health and pregnancy care. And rightly so, but

41:28

not everybody is going to have a baby. Not

41:30

everyone is going to have a baby. Every woman

41:32

will have a menopause if she lives

41:34

long enough. And more than 100 women will

41:36

have an early menopause. You know, she might be in her

41:38

30s, or

41:40

you might get plunged into a surgical

41:43

menopause because of chemotherapy or medical treatment

41:45

or hysterectomy or phyrectomy or whatever. So

41:48

it's, I think we're living in the dark ages

41:50

or have been. And I

41:52

think that my daughter's generation, you know,

41:55

will be treated hopefully very differently. And they'll look

41:57

back at this time and they'll say, within

41:59

credulity. Well, what do you

42:01

mean they expected you to live and survive

42:04

without hormones? Well, you mentioned Dr Louise Newsom

42:06

there who's obviously done brilliant work in this

42:08

space. I remember listening

42:10

to a podcast she did and she

42:12

said it's not hormone replacement, it's rebalancing.

42:14

Let's think of it as that because

42:16

somehow that seems to be less offensive

42:19

to... It's hormone deficiency. If

42:22

you don't have enough vitamin C, then you know

42:24

that you need to eat more vitamin C or

42:27

have more fruit or take a vitamin C supplement.

42:31

If you're deficient in your oestrogen, you're

42:33

not going to live optimally. And

42:36

I think there's an interesting

42:38

case for should women be given

42:40

prophylactic oestrogen earlier on before you

42:43

even develop symptoms. And

42:45

some of the studies looking at

42:47

brain health, particularly Alzheimer's and dementia,

42:49

show that the earlier you take

42:51

replacement oestrogen, the better your

42:53

brain health. I just wish somebody had said to

42:55

me in my mid-40s, here's some

42:57

oestrogen. Because it's going to be good for your brain.

42:59

Well, I went to see

43:02

Dr Sarah Matthews when I first recognised

43:04

these perimenopausal symptoms. And

43:06

obviously not every woman does this, but I decided

43:08

to have blood tests to find out and then always

43:10

completely hundred percent accurate because of the cycle. But

43:12

I actually hadn't noticed that I was having very

43:15

few periods because I'd never had particularly massive

43:17

period issues. They were just there. And

43:22

she rang me up and she said, are you with

43:24

somebody? And I thought, oh my gosh, what's she

43:26

going to tell me? But she later explained

43:28

that when she delivers this news sometimes to women,

43:30

they feel very bereft with what she was about

43:33

to say, which was that she said, she thought

43:35

I had two periods left in my life. And

43:37

she proved to be absolutely fan off. Isn't that

43:39

extraordinary? And she said, you've got about two periods

43:41

left. And I said, really? And I said, no,

43:43

I'm thrilled. I'm absolutely great. And

43:46

she said, your hormones are so on the floor. I don't

43:48

know how you're getting up in the morning and I'd like you

43:50

to come and see me and get yourself one. And

43:53

the effect was so quick. The

43:55

turnaround was so quick. And

43:58

she also prescribed, a lot of people. assume

44:00

it's going to be progesterone and estrogen,

44:02

as she also prescribed testosterone, which

44:05

I had no fear of because I

44:07

had no expectation or previous

44:09

kind of colouring of my judgment of.

44:11

I didn't realise that that was going

44:13

to also take a nosedive. So I learnt a

44:16

lot more about that. But it's amazing how many

44:18

women don't have testosterone prescribed.

44:21

It's an absolute scandal. It's a

44:23

female hormone. We produce three times

44:25

more testosterone in our ovaries than

44:27

we do estrogen. People think

44:29

it's just the male hormone. It's very much a

44:31

female hormone. So for me, I was

44:34

on probably a more conventional journey in that

44:36

I had estrogen and progesterone. Got

44:39

those balanced, won that

44:41

for about six months or so. And funny

44:43

enough, it was Louise who picked up

44:46

testosterone for me, because I

44:48

was doing a podcast with her and

44:50

it was face to face and we were chatting.

44:52

And I was struggling for the odd word, you

44:55

know, word recall. I was like, oh,

44:57

what's it called? No, it'll

44:59

come back to me in a moment. Yeah. And

45:01

afterwards she said to me, I didn't

45:04

know her very well then. And she

45:06

said, actually Liz, do you

45:08

mind me saying something personal? I said, no.

45:10

This was after we'd stopped recording. And

45:13

she said, I think you might benefit

45:15

from some testosterone because one

45:17

of the key signs is word

45:19

recall. And testosterone is

45:22

really important for memory loss and

45:24

cognitive function. And mental clarity.

45:26

Everyone thinks it's just a sex hormone

45:28

because it's prescribed for libido. And

45:31

it has no other kind of clinical data

45:33

to support it. It's like, again, coming back

45:35

to that patriarchal system, oh,

45:37

you know, she won't have sex with me. Oh, let's

45:39

give us some more testosterone then because that's going to

45:42

impact on the guys here. Not,

45:45

oh, well, you know, she needs to be

45:47

thinking straight and have her moods improved and

45:49

her muscle strength protected because that's all to

45:51

do with testosterone. So it

45:53

was, yeah, it was Louise who got

45:56

me some testosterone in the first

45:58

instance and immediately again. that

46:00

clarity of thought was

46:02

just extraordinary. I just and I can see

46:04

it now and I'm sometimes with midlife women

46:06

and I can see them struggling for words

46:08

and if I know somebody really well,

46:10

I'll turn the conversation and we'll

46:13

start chatting about testosterone but

46:15

otherwise it's kind of hard isn't it? Yeah.

46:17

Drop that into conversation. By the way, I've

46:19

noticed that you're struggling so perhaps

46:22

you could do this in testosterone but then of course

46:24

if you can't guess it, then that's

46:27

a real issue. Also and I mean what's

46:29

happened over the last couple of years as well

46:31

with the provision of hormones and

46:33

the regional variation, what's available and where

46:36

it's available is extraordinary isn't it that

46:38

we're in that situation? It really

46:41

is and also globally when

46:43

I talk to friends overseas,

46:45

it's very interesting because you can go

46:48

into a pharmacy in Spain or France

46:50

and you can buy Eastern over the

46:52

counter and I've done it, I put it

46:54

to the test and yet

46:56

in some countries, in a particularly some African countries,

46:58

they ban the sale of any hormone. When

47:00

I went to Qatar for the World Cup, I

47:02

had to have a note from Sarah

47:05

explaining what it was, they would

47:08

remove it potentially at customs, explaining

47:10

that it was prescribed and why I had to take it.

47:13

So yeah, we are very lucky in one hand.

47:15

We are lucky in some ways that we are

47:17

able to get it but we need that message

47:19

which is why it's great with this podcast because

47:21

we can go global. You'll

47:23

love this then because my sister lives in Nevada and

47:26

she's a year younger than me and for me

47:29

it sounded like she was having a lot of

47:31

symptoms and she hadn't really with family

47:33

being away and she hasn't got a

47:35

close-knit group of girlfriends nearby. She

47:38

went to see her doctor and of course being

47:40

America, you have health insurance and their

47:43

family health insurance didn't cover HRT

47:45

but it did cover should he need it

47:47

Viagra for her husband. So I mean

47:50

if you ever want the handmade tail kind

47:52

of writ large. So I said well what

47:54

did the doctor suggest and she said antidepressants.

48:00

But for her to buy HRT in

48:02

America was going to cost her about $600 a month. You're

48:05

not serious. So with no prescription, it was so

48:07

expensive that it was prohibitive for her to even

48:10

think about it. So yeah, and

48:12

of course, this is a state variation. All over

48:14

America, every state has different rules. It's different. And

48:16

I was outraged. I was fuming. And I said,

48:18

well, what about your governor? And she said, we've

48:20

just got a governor who makes Trump look moderate.

48:23

So we're not in a position where

48:25

I think there's many people at the

48:27

top of politics in the state that want women

48:29

to. So Louise Newsom kindly

48:31

did a kind of a zoom call with her

48:33

and helped her out. And yeah,

48:36

it's tragic. Oh, well, I just thought

48:38

she's really somebody in the UK she's

48:40

talking to and has a different experience.

48:42

Think of all those women who don't

48:44

have that opportunity. And what

48:46

are they doing? They may be taking the

48:49

antidepressants thinking that's going to help. And it

48:51

may well help one bit of their journey.

48:53

Yeah, that you won't perhaps mind the fact

48:55

that you feel so shit. And then all

48:57

the other symptoms that you've got going on

49:00

don't get any kind of help at

49:02

all, do they? So let's talk about

49:04

relationships. Yeah, because actually, the

49:06

menopause can affect lots of

49:08

different parts of your close personal relationship

49:10

in the first instance, can't it? In

49:12

terms of the person that you spend

49:14

your life with, if you've got a life partner,

49:17

but also your friendships and yeah, how you view

49:19

people that might have been in your life for

49:21

a long time. No, I mean, I

49:23

think I wouldn't say that my marriage breakdown was due

49:25

to the menopause, but it didn't help. For

49:28

sure. You know, you talk about being

49:30

rassy. And you

49:32

know, I can remember my poor ex-husband, you

49:35

know, even just his breathing would be annoying.

49:37

We actually get on very well now. And

49:40

he's still his breathing. But it's, you know, it's really

49:42

important to be aware

49:46

of that, actually, because I think

49:49

you look at relationship breakdown, marriage

49:51

breakdown, rates of divorce, etc. It's

49:53

often around that time, it's often around the

49:56

time that a woman is, you know, early

49:58

50s going through menopause. And and

50:00

dealing with so many issues, you

50:02

know, and loss of confidence and

50:04

anxiety and rage, flashes of rage

50:06

that come out of nowhere, you

50:08

know, which really aren't helpful when

50:11

you're struggling at a time when life is

50:13

busy anywhere and stressful and you're feeling that

50:15

you're losing your looks because your skin is

50:17

sagging and, you know, you're beginning

50:19

to feel that in society is regarding you

50:21

as invisible, that kind of relationship that we

50:23

have with older women in society not being

50:25

seen as relevant or useful. And

50:28

that's often the person, as you say, that at the brunt

50:30

of that can be the person you're married to

50:32

or even a long-term relationship with. And

50:34

that's why I think it is so important

50:36

for men to understand what's going on. And,

50:39

you know, my son who's 18

50:41

will take the Mickey out quite a

50:43

lot by saying, oh, you're talking about the menopause.

50:45

I know my 21-year-old boy

50:47

says exactly the same thing. And my 14-year-old,

50:49

you know, he's very aware of what menopause

50:53

is. Well, they would understand all about puberty because

50:55

they're taught about that school. So, you know, I

50:57

don't see why there shouldn't be half an hour

50:59

at the back end of that, let's say. And

51:01

by the way, guys, later on, you

51:03

may well find yourself in a relationship with

51:05

a woman who's going through the menopause. Yeah,

51:07

or a colleague or your, you know, tutor

51:09

or your mother, your aunt, whatever. You might

51:12

have been in a relationship with a woman,

51:14

but you will definitely know one. Yes, definitely

51:16

know one. And she will definitely be affected

51:18

at some point. Yeah, really important life lesson.

51:20

So while you don't think that that was

51:22

the overriding reason for your marriage breaking

51:24

up, what kind of advice would you give women

51:26

who are recognizing that

51:28

in their own relationship is increasingly

51:31

challenging in this period? I

51:33

think, you know, I write quite honestly,

51:36

I think, in the book about

51:38

my own situation and hopefully

51:41

give some helpful advice on others who might be

51:43

in a similar situation. And

51:45

I think over the years,

51:47

maybe through doing podcasts with

51:49

psychotherapists and relationship counsellors, becoming

51:52

aware of terms like toxic

51:55

relationships, codependency,

51:59

gaslighting. coercive control,

52:01

you know, all of these things which

52:03

are new to my vocabulary. Certainly when I was

52:05

growing up, you know, my parents would never have

52:07

talked about that. I would never have talked about

52:10

that with girlfriends even. Narcissism,

52:12

you know, are you with a narcissist? How is

52:14

that affecting your behavior? I don't know you with

52:16

a narcissist. Yeah, exactly. And so,

52:18

you know, are you on yourself? You know,

52:21

so all these different behavioral issues

52:23

that might be going on. And I think

52:25

there is a real need

52:27

to wake up some of these things. And

52:30

then also ask yourself if you're in a relationship that

52:32

doesn't seem to be working and hasn't been working for

52:35

a long time, can

52:37

it work? Do you both want it

52:39

to work? Why isn't it working? And

52:42

what steps do you need to take

52:45

to either extricate yourself from that

52:47

relationship safely, or to then

52:49

build on it and make it work? And I

52:51

think, you know, one of the questions that's worth

52:53

asking is, are you in a relationship because

52:56

you want to be in a relationship, or because you're too

52:58

scared to be on your own? And

53:01

I know from a lot of girlfriends

53:03

I speak to, they say, actually, I know, it's

53:05

really bad. And it's really tough. I

53:07

just don't want to be on my own. And

53:10

possibly, I fell into that category a little bit. I

53:12

was certainly scared of being on my own. I've never

53:14

been on my own, because I

53:16

got married the first time when I was

53:18

18. So I went

53:21

straight from college, living at home, being

53:23

married. And then I was

53:25

only divorced for maybe a year or so. And then

53:27

I met my second husband, and we were together for,

53:29

you know, best part of 20 years. So

53:32

it was a big shock for me to

53:34

suddenly be completely on my own. And I

53:37

needed that time, actually, I spent a couple

53:39

of years, didn't date anybody, I was

53:41

on my own, I was kind of figuring out who I was

53:44

in all of this, and doing

53:46

things on my own for the very

53:48

first time. You know, I took myself off

53:50

to the theatre and on my own, I bought a ticket

53:52

for one. And I took myself out

53:55

to dinner. And I sat, you know, on

53:57

my own, I had a book, because I kind of felt I

53:59

needed to be dead. doing something. But I actually

54:01

really enjoyed the evening and realized that

54:03

I didn't need somebody else to complete

54:05

me. And you know, if I happen to have somebody else,

54:08

then that's great. But

54:10

they're there because I enjoy their company and

54:12

I feel better for it, not because I

54:14

need them to be there. And also I

54:16

imagine you went through quite a voyage of

54:18

discovery about how society and your friendship groups

54:20

viewed you as a single person.

54:22

Yeah, I was seen as a threat. You

54:25

know, did they want to still invite me to

54:27

dinner because I was a single woman? Was I

54:29

just going to be hard to manage on my

54:31

own? Did they have to

54:35

find another man? They were saying they'd constantly

54:37

want to set you up. There was a

54:39

bit of that. That was quite funny. But

54:43

again, it's about all the voyage of discovery, isn't

54:45

it? That I think a lot of people might

54:47

look at and think it's quite scary. But when

54:49

you come to the other side and you look

54:51

back, you have absolutely no regrets, I'm assuming, before

54:54

you come through that. I've come through that

54:56

and that's probably why I'm healthier and

54:58

happier and feel fitter and stronger and more

55:00

resilient now because I know myself much better.

55:02

And I know the things that

55:04

I like. And

55:07

also now being in a new relationship,

55:09

realizing how actually precious that is and

55:11

how special that is and taking time

55:13

to make sure that I don't fall

55:16

into the same pitfalls

55:18

and patterns of behavior that perhaps are

55:20

less healthy. I think you become

55:22

more aware of that, perhaps the later life of if

55:25

you do then meet somebody and want to have

55:27

a relationship of actually what you need to do

55:29

to protect that. And there'll be women listening and

55:31

maybe men listening as well who want to

55:33

know how you meet people in midlife. Where

55:35

are they? Did you get yourself on

55:38

the apps? Yeah, I

55:40

tried apps. I actually got blocked from

55:42

Bumble for impersonating Lazelle.

55:44

I thought but

55:47

it was me. Obviously, I didn't

55:49

put my real name and that was

55:51

because somebody reported to me. They saw

55:53

my pictures and said no. They thought

55:55

you were catfishing. Yeah. See like how

55:57

I knew that time even though I'm not on the up.

56:00

old apps but yeah I

56:02

got blocked but I gather Sharon Stone got blocked

56:04

as well. Oh you're in company. So there you

56:06

go you know me and Shazza. So

56:08

and I kind of I went off the app so

56:10

I got very scared I mean everybody was on apps

56:12

and I thought well I'll try it but

56:15

it's just a swipey thing isn't it and

56:17

it's very superficial so I stopped it and

56:19

then I was happy on my own and

56:21

I met up with a girlfriend who'd been

56:23

divorced and she was just glowing and I

56:25

said what are you doing you know and

56:28

she said oh I've met the love of my life. I

56:30

said tell me more how did you meet

56:33

and she said well we met online I said I'm not

56:35

doing those swipy apps and she said

56:37

no no this is a website you know

56:39

dating website so you should

56:41

do it. I cannot do that you

56:43

know so anyway I went

56:45

home and I joined and

56:48

left it and probably over shared lots

56:50

of information because I came down the

56:52

next morning to about 90 messages and

56:55

got completely scared and deleted my profile

56:57

immediately and wasted about a year and

56:59

then I was coming back from Kenya and

57:02

I was thinking I'm coming back and I'm

57:04

single and it'd be quite nice to be

57:06

with somebody so maybe I'll just reactivate my

57:08

profile and see what happens and

57:11

then very very quickly I got

57:13

a message from this young guy who

57:15

said you know I won't take

57:17

exactly what he said but he's basically said will you meet me

57:19

for a cup of coffee and I thought

57:22

I'm not sure about this. I said yeah I go on

57:24

and meet you for a cup of coffee and

57:27

yeah that was it. We've been together

57:29

ever since. Wow that was timing

57:32

timing is everything obviously. Timing is everything. He

57:34

was ready and it was just like yeah

57:36

do you know what this is this is

57:38

great. Now I'm not I'm not gonna ask

57:40

you about the intricacies of

57:42

this but well what is coming?

57:45

I did say we're gonna talk about sex. You did. So

57:48

if you're leaving a relationship and you're going out into

57:50

the kind of you know the unknown it's

57:52

a fear isn't it if you've been with somebody for a long time you

57:55

know exposing yourself. Yeah I think if it but

57:57

it comes down to chemistry doesn't it. I think

57:59

if you. trust somebody and

58:01

you really are into them and

58:03

you connect with them and you

58:05

just want to be close to

58:08

them and actually I think that kind of

58:10

takes the fear away. I think if you're

58:13

just after a kind of quick jump in the sack

58:15

then that might be different but I think if you've

58:17

really got a connection with

58:20

someone. A connection and a kind of,

58:22

not necessarily a long term commitment but

58:24

it's somebody that you think

58:26

that you're actually going to be spending some time with.

58:28

It has such an important impact on our identity doesn't

58:31

it? Yeah, I mean I write about sex in the

58:33

book and I write about it in terms of wellbeing

58:36

because it's very good for our health, it's very

58:38

good for physical health, mental health, all

58:41

those happy chemicals, the endorphins, the

58:43

oxytocin which is the love hormone

58:46

which is produced at orgasm but

58:48

it's also produced when you touch somebody's

58:50

hand. You can be holding somebody's

58:52

hand or stroking somebody's

58:54

face and actually you just feel

58:56

that euphoria and that's coming from

58:58

the oxytocin which is incredibly good

59:00

for our immune system and our

59:02

mental health and our neurotransmitters. So

59:05

you can break it down on

59:07

a purely physical biochemical level that

59:09

actually says we're social beings, we're meant to

59:11

be connected with other people. If we can

59:14

be fortunate enough to find somebody then I

59:16

think it's worth going for. And

59:18

I do think as well there is, I've

59:20

had a few sex therapists on my podcast

59:23

and there is a use it or lose

59:25

it as an element to all of this.

59:27

Actually if you're in a relationship where you

59:29

are having sex with somebody, try to keep

59:31

having sex with them because it's getting out

59:34

of the habit. I see that in various

59:36

relationships that I know, friends. And

59:38

you get dressed, don't you? You just

59:41

drift apart and it is a great way of connecting.

59:44

And like you, I've interviewed lots of

59:46

sex therapists on my podcast and

59:48

when you talk about sex it's

59:50

not always penetrative sex. Sex can

59:52

be many different things on a

59:55

touching level or that intimacy, that

59:57

connection, that sharing, that connection. We

1:00:00

need to think about sex in a much broader,

1:00:02

you know, not just kind of the ins and

1:00:04

outs of it if you It's

1:00:10

been fantastic to sit with you

1:00:12

and share experiences and hear your

1:00:14

wisdom and Purpose and

1:00:17

you know having having a purpose in life

1:00:19

as you move forwards I think is really

1:00:21

important So before we go just share a

1:00:23

little bit of you it is your thoughts

1:00:25

on that it is and I did a

1:00:27

whole chapter on purpose and I

1:00:30

think as we age You're obviously

1:00:32

aware of the fragility of life and how fortunate we

1:00:34

are to be here But there comes a point when

1:00:36

you think what's it all for? Why

1:00:38

am I here, you know, am I leaving

1:00:40

the world a better place than I found it and

1:00:43

why am I doing this? You know, and

1:00:45

I don't want to get to the end of my life and be saying

1:00:47

to myself Well, is

1:00:50

that it? What was all that about? Hmm, you

1:00:52

know, I think there is a real

1:00:54

need a human need To

1:00:57

feel that we are valuable and I

1:00:59

think there is they say it's greater to give than

1:01:01

to receive And I think that is true, you

1:01:03

know, we know through Volunteering

1:01:05

or sharing somebody or an act of kindness you

1:01:07

feel great One of the things I try and

1:01:09

do with all each of my five children is

1:01:12

for that to be my legacy in a way is to Say

1:01:15

find your purpose, you know find your passion what

1:01:17

gets you up in the morning? And if you're

1:01:19

fortunate enough to be able to make a living

1:01:21

from it then great But otherwise have it as

1:01:23

a hobby and maybe if you are semi-retired or

1:01:25

you've got more time in later life That's the

1:01:28

time if you haven't yet found your purpose To

1:01:31

really explore that and say, you know, what is lighting

1:01:33

my fire? What what do I want to do more

1:01:35

of what is going to get me up early to

1:01:37

get that early morning? train

1:01:39

or whatever or make that meeting with somebody

1:01:42

and We all have a

1:01:44

reason for being here We all have a purpose and

1:01:46

I think it's really important to spend a bit of

1:01:48

time to find it and to

1:01:50

really Find the meaning of life I

1:01:52

guess and I think anybody that

1:01:55

well anybody I've met who I feel really

1:01:57

has purpose Especially those who are kind of

1:01:59

moving retirement years.

1:02:01

And there's so much more

1:02:04

magnetic to be around because their

1:02:06

energy is so giving, you

1:02:08

know, and you want to be with those

1:02:10

people. So actually, you'll just have so much

1:02:12

more in your life as you get

1:02:14

older, I think. Which means you want more, not

1:02:17

less. Absolutely. And the more you give, the

1:02:20

more you get back and you

1:02:22

just live this abundant, joyful

1:02:24

life. And I think if

1:02:26

there's one message that I'd like to get across, it's

1:02:28

that more joy is

1:02:31

really achievable and it's worth getting

1:02:34

because the more you have,

1:02:36

the more you have then to share. So the

1:02:38

more you have for yourself, your own personal benefit,

1:02:40

but the more everybody else benefits from

1:02:42

just being around you. And you'll definitely have a better

1:02:44

second half. For sure. Thank

1:02:46

you so much. Thank you. Oh

1:02:50

my gosh, Gabby, what a joy it was

1:02:52

to talk to you. It was really up

1:02:55

close and personal, but you made it very

1:02:57

easy for me to be kind of fearless

1:02:59

and frank. And I hope that a lot

1:03:01

of what I said will have resonated and

1:03:03

given some useful takeaways actually that you can

1:03:06

put into your own life, put into practice,

1:03:08

things that are easy, simple, straightforward health hacks.

1:03:10

But you know, when you add them all

1:03:12

up, little changes that can make a

1:03:14

really big difference. Well, if

1:03:16

you feel that you have just

1:03:18

been erratically muddling through midlife, do

1:03:21

make sure that you're back here next week

1:03:23

because I will be answering your questions about

1:03:26

your midlife struggles, everything

1:03:28

from supplements to skincare,

1:03:30

fat loss to family

1:03:32

issues. So thank you for

1:03:34

the emails and the voice notes. I'm

1:03:37

really looking forward to having that

1:03:39

conversation. And of course you can

1:03:41

continue to get in touch with

1:03:43

the show. You can email podcast

1:03:45

at lizelwellbeing.com. You can also find

1:03:47

us on Instagram. Drop a comment

1:03:49

to Lizelle Wellbeing on Instagram or me

1:03:52

personally at Lizelle me. And of course

1:03:54

you can pre-order your copy of A

1:03:56

Better Second Half so that it arrives

1:03:58

through your letterbox. As soon as

1:04:00

it is available on Publication Day, that's the 25th

1:04:03

of April. I look

1:04:05

forward to chatting next week. But until

1:04:07

then, go well. Goodbye. This

1:04:15

episode of the Lavelle Wellbeing Show is

1:04:18

presented by me, Lavelle and Gabby Logan.

1:04:20

It was produced by Nishika Tate for

1:04:22

Fresh Air Production with additional production support

1:04:24

from Eddie Smith. Hey,

1:04:29

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