0:00

I think we can now say absolutely

0:02

fundamentally that the most important aspect of

0:04

your mental and physical health, your well-being,

0:07

your longevity is the relationships you

0:09

create with other people because

0:11

that is sort of

0:13

tallying alongside quitting smoking and it's much

0:15

much stronger for example than maintaining a

0:18

healthy weight. So it's actually

0:20

in a way the missing health phenomenon

0:23

because really in the way we take our relationships for

0:25

granted you know we do all those things which you're

0:27

told to be healthy like you know drink lots of

0:29

water, eat the right food, exercise all those sorts of

0:31

things but nobody actually says do you know what

0:33

just go out and have a lovely cup of tea with a friend.

0:37

Well that is the voice

0:39

of Anna Machen she's an

0:41

evolutionary anthropologist. Love she says

0:43

is integral to our health

0:45

and happiness. This is the

0:47

Liz Earle Wellbeing Show, the podcast helping us

0:50

all have a better second half. I'm

0:52

Liz Earle and my mission is to find

0:54

ways for all of us to thrive in

0:56

later life by investing in our health and

0:58

our well-being today. Now did

1:01

you do anything to mark Valentine's

1:03

Day? Just gone I wonder. I

1:05

remember the excited anticipation of whether

1:07

or not I'd received any Valentine's Day

1:09

cards as a teenager, always miraculously managed

1:11

to receive at least one I suspect

1:13

sent by my mother which is probably

1:15

why I send it to my own

1:17

kids, don't tell them. Well no value

1:19

judgments here either way you know we

1:21

all express love in our own ways

1:23

and I guess we will have our

1:25

own definitions of what love is even

1:27

to be honest. It's one of those

1:29

strange things that we all talk about

1:32

as if we're discussing the same thing

1:34

but we'll never really know if we

1:36

experience it in the same way as

1:38

anyone else. For me

1:40

I guess love is putting someone ahead

1:42

of myself or perhaps

1:44

submitting to losing a little bit

1:47

of control over how I feel

1:49

or behave as love or passion

1:51

perhaps overtakes rationality and reason but

1:53

ultimately it's about feeling very happy

1:56

and in fact the longest study ever conducted

1:59

on human happiness recently revealed that

2:01

our relationships are the key. Anna

2:03

Machen, who's been researching love in

2:06

all its forms for two decades,

2:08

has come to a similar conclusion

2:10

in her book, Why We Love,

2:12

the definitive guide to our most

2:14

fundamental need. Need being

2:16

the crucial word there. Anna

2:18

also hosts the podcast, How We're

2:21

Wired, which explores how our brains

2:23

underpin our experiences, our emotions and

2:25

our behavior. So what is going

2:28

on in our brains when we

2:30

love, and how does love affect

2:33

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in savings. Additional taxes, fees, and restrictions

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apply. mintmobile.com. Anna,

4:19

welcome. I'm so looking forward to getting

4:21

into the nuances of what love actually

4:23

is and why it's so vital to

4:26

our health and survival, I guess, as

4:28

humans. Thank you for having me.

4:30

Well, you know, as I mentioned there in the intro,

4:32

everyone seems to have their own definition of love. What

4:35

angles do you as an anthropologist

4:37

come at all this from? As

4:40

a tricky question, as an anthropologist, my job is

4:42

to explain a phenomenon or a behavior or whatever

4:44

it might be at

4:46

every possible level of explanation. So we get

4:48

a really good handle on what

4:50

that particular phenomenon is and when you do it

4:53

with love, it's

4:55

incredibly complicated. So what I've had to do

4:57

over the last 20 years is

4:59

really try and answer the question, what is love

5:01

at every possible level of explanation. So we can

5:04

we can answer it at the evolutionary level where

5:06

the answer is it's about survival. We

5:08

can answer it at the genetic level and look at which

5:10

genes influence how you feel and how you behave when you're

5:12

in love. We can look at

5:14

that psychological level and look at the concept

5:16

of attachment, which is what defines our closest

5:19

relationship. And we can look at sort of

5:21

the social level. So what do our laws

5:23

say about love? How does our upbringing affect

5:25

how we love? So it's a really

5:27

complicated answer to what is actually a

5:30

very simple question in one sense. You

5:33

know, I was really struck by your

5:35

book, actually, which is brilliant on all

5:37

the different facets. You know, you've just touched on a few

5:39

there. I love looking at

5:41

epigenetics, for example, and realizing that

5:43

we can influence our genetic makeup.

5:46

And, you know, we'll get into some of

5:48

those epigenetic pathways and talk about things like

5:50

dopamine and serotonin, because I thought that was

5:52

also fascinating. And then, of course, you know,

5:54

I think on social media, when we look

5:56

at relationships, we're hearing a lot of those

5:58

words about attachment. and all of those,

6:00

so I'd love to do a deep dive into those

6:02

as well. Can

6:06

I just ask you, kind of as an overview, you know, what

6:08

was it about love as an area of study that kind of

6:10

captivated you? Was

6:13

it that it has all these different strands to it

6:15

and is just such a fundamental thing that perhaps we

6:17

don't really kind of sit down and analyze too much?

6:19

I think so. I think I love a knotty question.

6:22

I love a question that's going to make my head hurt. So

6:26

that kind of attracted me in the first place.

6:28

And I think also I started as a primatologist

6:30

actually before I studied humans. And

6:33

there all you're studying actually is relationships just

6:35

in a different species and they're fascinating relationships.

6:37

It's like a soap opera. And

6:40

then when I moved on and I joined

6:42

Oxford and I joined a research group that

6:44

was looking at the neuroscience of close human

6:46

relationships, I kind of got given

6:48

the job of doing those really close ones defined

6:51

by love. So those between obviously romantic love,

6:53

but also parental love, friendships, all those sorts

6:55

of things. And as

6:57

an anthropologist, it's a fascinating

6:59

area because it literally infiltrates

7:02

every fiber of your being, every biological

7:04

and psychological mechanism is involved in love,

7:06

but also every aspect of your daily

7:08

life. So the decisions you take every

7:10

day, the rules you live by, everything, if you pair

7:12

it all the way back and you take it back

7:14

to where it came from, it

7:17

comes from love and it comes from

7:19

the relationships you have. So for an

7:21

anthropologist, it's absolutely fascinating. You know, love

7:23

is uniquely human. Other animals do experience

7:25

them. But what we've done to it

7:27

is we've made it so complex that

7:30

that aspect of love is uniquely human. And

7:33

therefore as an anthropologist, I'd be doing

7:35

a disservice really to not study something.

7:37

I think sometimes it gets belittled

7:39

as a concept. I always just

7:41

love and it's all wishy washy and, you know, gills

7:43

like and all that sort of thing. And I think

7:46

particularly as a female scientist, sometimes I get accused of

7:48

doing something terribly easy and wishy washy. But actually, when

7:50

you when you really drill down, when you pair everything

7:52

else away that makes us very complex, all

7:54

we have is love. And all we

7:56

have is the relationships that we exist within. So for me,

7:58

it's just a very interesting area. me it is

8:01

a fundamental aspect of humanity. And

8:04

an integral part of our well-being then and something

8:06

that we mustn't overlook but must look at generating

8:08

more perhaps. Absolutely completely and I think we I

8:10

think we dismiss that too quickly I think we

8:12

need to really focus on that health side of

8:15

it. You were finishing

8:17

writing your book during the pandemic and

8:19

we've spoken about the ways that Covid

8:21

you know lockdowns devastated people's lives on

8:23

the show before. Do you

8:25

think the conversations around love and human

8:27

connection became even more

8:29

imperative during lockdown and

8:31

that social connection and

8:33

the role that it plays in our health perhaps

8:35

became even more apparent? You know I'm thinking of you

8:38

know the awful social distancing that everybody had to endure.

8:40

I think so and I think I you know yes

8:42

I did I wrote it during lockdown I did a

8:44

lot of my interviews for the book during lockdown in

8:46

a way it felt even more person and to talk

8:48

to people about the people they loved because they

8:50

weren't able to be with them in many cases. And

8:52

I think it made us all realize at a

8:55

personal level how important those relationships were because I spoke

8:57

to a lot of people who said they felt a

9:00

pain and emptiness something that was missing in

9:02

their lives. Certainly a lot of people struggled

9:05

with their mental health during lockdown and a

9:07

lot of that was because that

9:09

social connection was not there

9:12

and I think hopefully

9:14

one of maybe the upsides of that lockdown

9:16

is it made people realize that again when

9:18

everything else has gone away life in one

9:21

sense is very simple and very sort

9:23

of finite in terms of being shopping in your

9:25

house. The thing you miss the most isn't you

9:28

know going to work necessarily and doing your work

9:30

or whatever it might be it's actually I miss

9:32

just hugging the people I love and

9:35

I think that made people realize

9:37

that fundamentally what matters is the relationships

9:39

you're in. Yeah I'm really keen to

9:41

understand the neuroscience here behind love you

9:44

know actually what's going on in

9:46

our brains because you write in your

9:48

book that I'm quoting here at its

9:50

most basic level love is biological

9:52

bribery I love you know what what

9:55

purpose then does our body our kind

9:57

of chemical makeup think that love has

10:00

for us as a species. OK,

10:03

so yes, very cold, hard, horrible scientific statement

10:05

there. Just

10:07

to say, I do think love's much more complex than

10:09

that. But yes, if we look at the evolutionary purpose

10:11

of love, it was to aid

10:13

our survival. So we're a cooperative species, and

10:15

we need to cooperate to survive. So we

10:17

cooperate to raise our children. I think if

10:19

you've had children, you're all aware of the

10:21

many, many people it involves to

10:23

raise a human child. We cooperate to

10:25

learn everything we need to learn, social

10:28

learning. And we cooperate just for basic

10:30

subsistence. But the problem is that cooperation

10:32

is really, really tough. Whilst it has all these

10:34

positive aspects and we have to do it, it

10:37

can be really tough. We know that cooperating

10:39

with people is stressful sometimes, if you don't

10:41

like them. You have to exist in a

10:43

hierarchy, which means that you

10:46

are, as an individual, probably costing yourself something

10:48

by being in this hierarchy, particularly if you're

10:50

in the middle or down the bottom, which

10:52

means you get access to things at a

10:55

much slower rate than the people at the

10:57

top, for example. You have

10:59

to coordinate your day with people, where ideally

11:01

you might actually, for your own good, need to

11:03

go do something else. And also, people lie, and they

11:05

cheat, and they steal, to be frank. And so you

11:08

have to spend a lot of time watching

11:10

out for those people, because those will impact

11:12

your survival negatively. So what evolution

11:14

came up with was this set of

11:17

neurochemicals, which motivates us and

11:19

then reward us for making the effort

11:21

to be cooperative. And there are four

11:23

of them. Everyone's had an

11:26

oxytocin, but it's much more complex than

11:28

just oxytocin. So there's oxytocin, dopamine, serotonin,

11:30

and beta-endorphin. And they are all in

11:32

this cocktail that's released at different times,

11:35

at different stages of a relationship. And

11:37

they all have a slightly different job

11:39

to do in the relationship story. And

11:41

they are the things that make you feel

11:44

amazing when you're in love. They are the

11:46

things that addict you to somebody that, and

11:48

for example, then make it very painful when

11:50

you split up. And they are

11:52

also the ones that make it easier, make

11:55

you more sociable, reward you for being more sociable, so

11:57

that you will actually make the effort. to

12:00

build those really survival critical relationships.

12:03

That's so interesting to look at it from

12:05

that level. I talk a lot

12:07

with microbiome specialists, for example, about the

12:10

gut-brain axis and releasing happy chemicals and

12:12

endorphins and things. But I've never really heard

12:14

it put into that context before. We'll come

12:16

on to each of those, because I think

12:19

each of those four are really interesting.

12:21

The one that I've never heard of, and

12:24

maybe is new to my listeners here

12:26

too, are beta endorphins. Can

12:28

you give us an idea of what they do and

12:31

what they are and why they're important? Yeah,

12:34

sure. So beta endorphin is a very ancient

12:36

chemical actually. It's evolved to be part of

12:38

your pain killing system in your body. So

12:40

if you hurt yourself, beta endorphin is what's

12:42

released. But we also release beta endorphin in

12:44

lots of other circumstances as well. If

12:47

you love your exercise, that feeling you get after

12:49

a really good run or a really good gym

12:51

session, that's sort of euphoria. And that slightly addictive

12:54

element of wanting to go and do it

12:56

again, that's beta endorphin. And we release beta endorphin

12:58

when we laugh, when we sing, when we dance,

13:00

when we do lots of different things, when we

13:02

touch in particular. But beta

13:04

endorphin is the chemical of long-term love.

13:07

So what makes human relationships

13:10

very special compared to even those

13:12

of our closest primate friends is

13:14

that they last an incredibly long

13:16

time. They can last decades. And

13:19

also we have lots of different sorts

13:21

of relationships. A lot of animals only

13:23

have what we call reproductively-based relationships. So

13:25

they will have a relationship with their

13:27

mate and they may have a relationship

13:29

with their offspring. And that's pretty much

13:31

it. And they're all based about reproduction

13:33

and passing those genes on directly. We

13:36

have lots of platonic relationships, friendships,

13:39

other family relationships, which

13:41

aren't underpinned by the

13:43

sexual relationship. And

13:45

you need a chemical that will underpin

13:47

those as well. Now oxytocin, which underpins

13:49

a lot of particularly small mammal relationships,

13:52

is only really released in any

13:54

great quantity during sex. And

13:58

when we're sort of giving birth breast

14:00

meaning or whatever. What we

14:02

need is a chemical that will

14:04

underpin those long-term friendships as

14:06

well. And the other thing about

14:09

oxytocin is it's very short-lived. It's not capable

14:11

of underpinning a relationship for decades because we've

14:13

become immune to it. Really? So

14:15

it's not terribly helpful. Yeah. Gosh, so that

14:17

kind of early passion then that you might

14:19

get in the beginning of a new relationship

14:21

is that being driven by oxytocin. But the

14:24

reason that it diminishes and wear off is

14:26

because you can't sustain it. Yeah. So that's

14:28

being driven very much by oxytocin and dopamine.

14:30

Yeah. Those are the chemicals that are really

14:32

key at the start of a relationship. But

14:35

when the relationship starts to mature and it

14:37

starts to become much, much deeper and we

14:39

start to build an attachment to somebody, then

14:41

beta-endorphin steps in. Because beta-endorphin is an opiate.

14:44

It's addictive. It's like heroin or morphine.

14:46

And that's how it underpins long-term relationships.

14:48

It does it by addicting you to

14:51

being with that person. And

14:53

when you go away from that person, you go

14:55

into cold turkey like you would if you were

14:57

a heroin addict, and then you're drawn back to

14:59

the source of that wonderful opiate high. So it's

15:01

a very simple mechanism actually.

15:04

The wonderful thing about beta-endorphin is

15:06

we do not grow tolerant to

15:08

it. So it will

15:10

always be able to underpin it. And

15:12

because it's released by lots of different

15:15

activities beyond sex, like laughing and chatting

15:17

and touching and dancing and

15:19

all those things, it can underpin all those

15:21

platonic relationships we have. So you

15:23

go to a comedy club with your friends and have a

15:25

good old laugh, and that's helping you bond. So

15:28

it's a really, really powerful chemical.

15:30

I think we get fixated oxytocin,

15:33

partly because it's very easy to study. Beta-endorphin

15:35

is very hard to study. And

15:37

secondly, because a lot of the early studies of love were

15:39

done on little furry rodents. Little

15:42

furry rodents are great, but they're not actually a

15:44

good parallel for the human brain. So

15:46

we needed to look elsewhere. And in fact,

15:48

we found beta-endorphin in our closest primate relatives.

15:51

And we found through studies at Oxford that

15:53

it definitely is beta-endorphin that is the chemical

15:55

of long-term love. How absolutely

15:57

fascinating. So we've touched that. on oxytocin.

16:00

What about things like serotonin? Where does

16:02

that come in? Serotonin is a really

16:04

interesting one actually and serotonin, we're still

16:06

studying serotonin because it's a bit of

16:08

a tricky one because what's

16:11

interesting about serotonin is when you

16:13

fall in love with somebody, oxytocin

16:15

and dopamine go up in your system and

16:17

we can talk a little bit later about

16:19

what they're doing. But serotonin goes down which

16:22

is kind of counterintuitive because we see serotonin

16:24

as kind of a happy chemical. It's like,

16:26

well that's a bit weird, you know you

16:28

should be happy at the start of a

16:30

relationship. But this is actually not the role

16:33

for serotonin in this love cocktail. The role

16:35

for serotonin is in obsessive love. So

16:38

you have to be vaguely obsessed with the person

16:40

you're in love with who bother to coordinate your

16:42

time with them, to be bothered to ask them

16:44

how they are because all of these things take

16:46

energy, they take time, they take brain power. And

16:49

the reason why we identify serotonin

16:51

in this role is because people

16:54

with obsessive compulsive disorder have very

16:56

low circulating serotonin. So

16:58

low levels seem to feed obsession.

17:01

And as I said, you know you don't want extreme

17:03

obsession in a relationship obviously because that's not healthy. But

17:05

you do need a little bit of it and

17:08

it explains with people when you're in the

17:10

start of a relationship, why you might daydream

17:12

constantly about your new partner or you know

17:14

when you've had a baby you spend your

17:16

whole time staring at photos of them or

17:18

looking at their little toes or whatever it

17:20

might be and you probably bore your friends

17:22

a little bit with how much you talk

17:24

about your new baby. That's serotonin. That's serotonin.

17:26

And it's really key at the start. I

17:28

love that. And I love the fact that

17:30

it's key. You know when I first got

17:32

together with my boyfriend I remember actually doing

17:34

exactly that. Boring my friends and my family

17:36

to death with endless photographs

17:39

on my phone and like text messages

17:41

going, oh look isn't he great? And

17:43

you know everyone yawning. And you know

17:46

there was actually a biochemical neurological

17:48

reason why I was doing that

17:50

and why that was important to

17:52

cement the early relationship. Absolutely.

17:54

Because if you think of the early relationship

17:56

you have to learn so much about this

17:59

new person. You have to focus. so much

18:01

upon them and serotonin is going to help

18:03

you along with the other chemicals to do

18:05

that to make sure that you're taking all

18:07

this information and you give that new relationship

18:09

time and focus and that's

18:11

what serotonin is doing. Brilliant. What

18:13

about dopamine then? What's that doing? Okay.

18:16

Well dopamine we can't really talk about without

18:18

its little pal oxytocin I'm afraid. So oxytocin

18:20

and dopamine actually work together. They

18:23

tend to do things together when it

18:25

comes to relationships. So at the start

18:27

of the relationship what oxytocin does is

18:30

it lowers your inhibitions to being sociable

18:33

and it does that by quietening the fear centre

18:35

of your brain which is known as the amygdala.

18:38

So you imagine you see someone across a bar, you

18:40

clap eyes on them, you think wow,

18:42

I feel you're rather gorgeous

18:45

and what happens in your brain is oxytocin is

18:47

released and oxytocin quietens that fear centre. It relaxes

18:49

you, it makes you feel a little bit more

18:51

chilled. So you know that nagging voice in the

18:53

back of your head that saps your confidence about

18:55

the fact that you're going to walk across the

18:57

bar and they're going to reject you in front

18:59

of everybody and it's going to be horribly humiliating

19:01

that's quietened down. So it kind of emboldens you

19:03

to make that move perhaps. Exactly,

19:06

yes perfect, an emboldening chemical basically.

19:08

At the same time as oxytocin

19:10

is released dopamine is released and

19:13

dopamine is your hormone of motivation

19:15

as well as being a reward makes

19:17

you feel nice. It's also your hormone

19:19

of motivation and it's needed because with

19:22

oxytocin you might be so chilled if it was on

19:24

its own that you actually don't make any effort to

19:26

get off the bar stall and go and talk to

19:28

the person because you're having a lovely time on your

19:30

own. So dopamine is the one that's going to give

19:32

you a little bit of a kick

19:34

and say no get off the bar stall

19:37

and go and make an effort please. So

19:39

that's what dopamine is doing and then together

19:41

at the very nanosecond, early early moments it's

19:44

also working to make your

19:46

brain more plastic and particularly in areas

19:48

of the brain related to learning and

19:50

memory. Because when you meet someone for the

19:52

first time you have to quickly encode, learn a

19:54

lot of information about them, their name, what they

19:56

sound like, what they look like, what their interests

19:58

are, all these sorts of things. And

20:00

dopamine and oxytocin make that much easier for

20:02

your brain to do and much easier for

20:04

you then to encode that into

20:07

your memory so it's there to easily retrieve the

20:09

next time you meet them, basically. Gosh,

20:11

that is absolutely fascinating

20:13

and presumably, are these controlled

20:15

or determined genetically? You know, we talk

20:17

a lot about epigenetics on this show,

20:19

particularly in terms of things like weight

20:21

loss and chronic illness and that kind

20:23

of thing. Do we have certain gene

20:25

expressions then that will basically

20:28

determine how we're going to fall in love

20:30

and how we're going to sustain our relationship?

20:34

As with all genetics, it's not

20:36

deterministic. So there's always a gene

20:38

environment interaction and some genes have

20:40

more of an interaction than others.

20:43

But certainly, love is quite strongly underpinned

20:45

by a set of genes that's associated

20:47

actually with those neurochemicals. So one of

20:49

them is the oxytocin receptor gene and

20:52

that has 26 point mutations

20:54

on it which vary between individuals

20:57

and do definitely

20:59

influence things like how

21:01

likely you are to want to be in

21:03

a relationship, for example, how motivated you are

21:05

to be in a relationship, how happy you'll

21:08

be when you're in the relationship, how good

21:10

you are at maintaining the relationship. So things

21:12

like, you know, intimate disclosure, vulnerability, how good

21:14

you are at romantic words, romantic talking, and

21:16

also things like it can influence things like

21:18

your attachment style, which 10 years

21:21

ago we thought attachment style was entirely

21:23

environmental. But actually, there

21:25

is an aspect of it that is

21:27

under genetic control. So

21:30

certainly, some of the way you behave and how

21:32

you feel will be down to

21:34

your genes, but it is heavily influenced,

21:36

particularly with in terms of things like

21:38

attachment, by the environment, particularly the one

21:40

in which you develop. So it's complicated,

21:42

but we did a really big study

21:44

at Oxford looking at the genetic determinants

21:46

of love and all sorts of

21:49

love. So not just romantic love, but friendship, love,

21:51

family, love, community love. And certainly,

21:53

there are genes that influence how people

21:55

behave. Fascinating. Well,

21:58

let's pause here. When we come back, I'm really

22:00

want to talk about how we love

22:02

and how that changes as we age

22:04

and particularly let's dig into those attachment

22:06

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22:08

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to get started. Well,

25:09

in your book, Anna, you discuss a

25:11

2010 study by

25:14

psychologist Julianne Holt-Lunster that concluded that

25:16

being within a supportive social network

25:18

reduced our risk of mortality by

25:21

50% by half. And

25:24

I think there are so many more conversations now

25:26

about how stress, you know, something we might think

25:28

of as emotional or psychological, has a

25:31

real effect on our physical bodies. You know, do

25:33

we need to be thinking about love and relationships

25:35

in the same way? Absolutely. I mean,

25:37

I think we can now say, because that's obviously

25:39

2010, 14 years ago, since then, there

25:42

have been many, many studies that have

25:44

replicated those results and strengthened those results.

25:47

And I think we can now say

25:49

absolutely fundamentally that the most important aspect

25:51

of your mental and physical health, your

25:53

well-being, your longevity is the relationships you

25:55

create with other people, because

25:57

they are, as you said, 50%. is

26:00

sort of tallying alongside quitting smoking, and

26:03

it's much, much stronger, for example, than

26:05

maintaining a healthy weight. So

26:08

it's actually, in a way, the missing health

26:11

phenomenon. Because really, in a

26:13

way, we take our relationships for granted. We

26:15

do all those things which you're told to be healthy, like

26:17

drink lots of water, eat the right food, exercise, all those

26:19

sorts of things. But nobody actually says, do

26:22

you know what? Just go out and have a lovely cup of tea

26:24

with a friend. And actually,

26:26

that is incredibly powerful. And

26:30

we are still unraveling why. There

26:33

are various suggestions. Some of them

26:35

are behavioral. So for example, if you're

26:37

in a supportive social network, you

26:39

are more likely to get practical and emotional help,

26:41

for example. So if you get yourself in a

26:43

sticky situation, if you're poorly, for example, or if

26:45

you're stressed, there's more likely to be people there

26:47

who will take some of that burden, or who

26:49

will care for you while you're sick. It

26:52

might be that, again, if you've got people around

26:54

you, and you have to adhere, for example, to

26:57

a particular health regime, they might help you stay

26:59

on the straight and narrow, and therefore maintain your

27:01

health. But also, there

27:03

are two things going on. We think biologically as

27:05

well. One is that we

27:07

think beta endorphin underpins your immune

27:09

system as well. So when beta

27:12

endorphin is released, it kind

27:14

of ramps up your white blood cell

27:16

count. And it ramps up those immune

27:18

cells that are going to help fight

27:20

disease. And the second thing

27:22

is, is that when all those lovely chemicals are

27:24

released, our stress levels are reduced. So if you

27:27

release oxytocin, dopamine, beta endorphin, serotonin,

27:29

they actually counteract cortisol, which we all

27:32

know is the stress hormone. So

27:34

the two cannot coexist. So

27:37

one of the best ways to de-stress is

27:39

to be with a group of people who

27:41

love and support you. When you

27:43

look at the way humans have evolved, it's actually like

27:45

a no-brainer, like, well, of course. But I think we've

27:47

kind of sidelined it a

27:49

bit. And the other thing to say,

27:52

the reason why we've kind of arrived at this as

27:54

well, it's in the title of my book, that love

27:56

is a need. Love is actually not an emotion. Love

27:59

is a survival. critical need and

28:01

it fits alongside those other survival critical

28:03

needs such as food, water and shelter.

28:06

So if you don't have love

28:08

in your life then you will

28:11

definitely experience detriment. For example if we

28:13

look at a baby that doesn't receive love,

28:15

for a start it actually has a

28:17

much higher risk of not surviving. But

28:19

even if it survives, in terms of

28:21

things like brain development it is already

28:23

on unfortunately a negative track in life.

28:25

So it's actually absolutely fundamental

28:27

to your development, to your health, to

28:29

your mental health, your longevity, your well-being

28:31

and just your life satisfaction. And as

28:33

I said to those of us who

28:35

study evolution it's kind of a no-brainer

28:38

but it's something I think that hasn't

28:40

come to light publicly enough yet. Well

28:42

I think we definitely need to get you in

28:44

a position of power here. You need to be

28:46

joining Sage and Cobra and so that you know

28:48

when they hit us with the next thing you

28:51

can be saying look guys we're not locking down

28:53

we're actually all going to get out and have

28:55

a large party and we're going to hug as

28:57

many people as we can. Yeah exactly. And talking

28:59

about hugging you know I have read that you

29:01

know I don't know how many it is, some

29:03

people say three hugs a day, some people eight

29:05

hugs a day. You know the

29:08

actual act of hugging is this why

29:10

it's so important then because it's having

29:12

an impact on the beta endorphins

29:15

which are influencing and supporting our

29:17

immune system. Yes absolutely and touch

29:19

is the most important generator

29:21

of social neurochemicals. If you

29:24

want a really big ramped up effect

29:26

touch someone. So that's why hugging

29:28

is so important and it's you know I mean

29:30

these studies that say you need three, you need

29:32

eight they're kind of yeah. It's the quality of

29:34

the hug and it's the person you do the

29:36

hug with okay. There's got to be someone that

29:38

you know you are attached to that you know

29:40

you do love but doesn't

29:42

cause you stress. It's a

29:45

good quality hug but certainly and touch is

29:47

really really critical. You know in my other

29:49

area of study you know I study parents

29:51

and children and that's why when a baby's

29:53

born skin to skin contact is the most

29:56

important thing because touch is the first sense

29:58

that we have that is really heightened. And

30:01

it's the one that does release the

30:03

most love chemicals. And then

30:05

for those listening who may be living on their own, have

30:08

you know, touching pets, stroking

30:11

and hugging, you know, can have a similar effect. It

30:13

doesn't always have to be human, does it? Absolutely no.

30:15

And again, that's why I wrote the book because I

30:17

think we focus very much. First of all, we have

30:19

a bit of an obsession with romantic love. Yeah, then

30:22

we have a bit of obsession with human to human

30:24

love. But actually, no pet love is

30:26

just as important. All you need is someone in

30:28

your life that you love and returns that love.

30:31

And if that's a dog, if that's a cat, you

30:33

know, if it's a pet bird, whatever it might be.

30:36

I was very fond of my gerbil, I have to say,

30:38

but he wasn't very good at hugging. But I did love

30:40

him. No, very sad. Exactly. And we

30:42

do experience love, you know, we've done fMRI

30:45

studies on dog owners and all these sorts

30:47

of things. And it is love. And

30:49

so it doesn't matter what you love, as

30:52

long as it's a healthy love, and you

30:54

can involve touch, go for it. That's

30:57

great. So coming back to the romantic love,

30:59

then this idea of dying of a

31:01

broken heart, presumably when the person that you love

31:03

and that you're used to touching and being with is

31:06

no longer with us in this world, you know,

31:08

could that then be scientifically possible? It

31:11

is scientifically possible. In

31:13

the first six months, for example, after a romantic

31:16

partner has died, particularly if you're

31:18

older, you have a much

31:20

increased chance of dying yourself. And I think we

31:22

all anecdotally know of these stories. And it can

31:24

be it can be for a biological reason. So

31:27

somebody dying causes increased stress on

31:30

the body, and it causes increased stress, particularly

31:32

on the circulatory system and the heart. So

31:35

you do actually have an increased chance of

31:37

dying, for example, of a heart attack during

31:39

that period. Also, when

31:41

somebody dies, or when somebody, for example,

31:44

leaves you, you go into massive

31:48

chemical withdrawal. And

31:50

because feature endorphin is also underpins your pain

31:52

system, suddenly that high

31:54

level of painkiller that's been circulating in

31:57

your system disappears. And suddenly all the

31:59

little aches. and pains that it's been

32:01

covering because you've been in a relationship suddenly come

32:03

to the fore. And that's why it can

32:06

be actually physically painful for somebody

32:08

to leave you or for someone to die, because

32:10

you suddenly have gone from this lovely high level

32:13

to literally rock bottom and gone into opiate withdrawal.

32:15

And you actually do get that physical pain, don't you?

32:18

People, you know, say, I can't bear

32:20

it. I hurt so much. And, you

32:22

know, the emotional hurt, the trauma, but

32:24

yeah, everything physically. How interesting that there's

32:26

an actual biochemical reason why that is

32:28

happening in our bodies. Absolutely. And then

32:31

obviously you have psychological pain because when

32:33

we are with somebody, whether it's romantic

32:35

or not, we take them

32:37

into our identity. So part of our identity

32:39

is the fact we have a relationship with

32:41

that other person. And we might define ourselves with

32:43

the word, you know, wife, girlfriend, you know,

32:46

mother, daughter, whatever it might be.

32:48

And when that person goes, part

32:51

of your identity goes. And

32:54

that's really hard to deal with because

32:56

suddenly you have to rejig who you

32:58

are. And that's hard. And

33:00

it's not just something you necessarily consciously do, but

33:03

your brain has to work that out as, okay,

33:05

who am I now? Because this

33:07

person has gone. And now I'm a

33:09

different person too. And so when

33:12

someone leaves you or when someone dies,

33:14

it's highly complex. It's a complex mix

33:16

of the psychological and the biological coming

33:18

together to make it, you know, a

33:20

really physically and psychologically painful situation. I

33:22

guess that leads me on to talking

33:25

about attachment and being attached to people.

33:27

And you know, people listening to this

33:29

now might be aware of some of

33:31

the different attachment styles. Certainly if you've

33:33

looked at relationships or looked at psychology

33:35

or talked to relationship counsellors, there seem

33:37

to be different styles of attachment. Don't

33:40

know whether they're sort of avoidant

33:42

or super attached or I can't remember

33:44

all the different terms. Can you talk

33:46

us through what those styles are and

33:48

see, you know, which ones we might

33:50

perhaps identify with and which are perhaps

33:52

positive, which maybe might be slightly more

33:54

negative maybe in terms of our relationships

33:56

and ability to love. Okay.

33:58

So it. There are different sort of,

34:01

attachment gets complicated because there are different measures

34:03

depending upon which relationship you're in. So

34:06

let's talk about romantic relationships. So

34:08

there are four attachment styles

34:10

in romantic relationships. There's secure,

34:13

there's preoccupied, there's fearful avoidant

34:15

and there's dismissing avoidant. And

34:17

the way we categorize people is based upon

34:19

where they sit on two dimensions. The

34:22

first is how anxious are they

34:24

about being left in that relationship?

34:27

And the second is how comfortable are

34:29

they with proximity to

34:31

that person? So if we look

34:33

at a secure person, they are high in

34:35

proximity, so they're very comfortable in proximity, but

34:37

they're very low in anxiety. So they don't

34:39

spend a lot of time worrying that the

34:42

person's going to leave them. And so the

34:44

secure person in a way, some people might

34:46

say is like the pinnacle of attachment is

34:48

to be secure. Because you

34:50

are very comfortable in a relationship, you

34:53

are happy to be supported in that

34:55

relationship and be supporting back, but you

34:57

don't need that relationship to define you,

35:00

nor indeed to enable you to function. So

35:02

you are a very secure person. And

35:04

is that because you've come from a

35:06

secure family background, perhaps? Your parents have

35:08

always been there to support you. Generally it is,

35:11

your attachment style isn't actually fixed. So

35:15

you can actually change your attachment

35:17

style. So I'll say to you, when I

35:19

first met my partner, my husband, I was

35:21

preoccupied, which meant I was highly anxious about

35:23

being left. And that's because

35:25

my upbringing wasn't that great. I

35:27

am now secure. And that's because my husband

35:29

over the God knows how many decades of

35:31

being together has shown me that he's not

35:33

going to leave me. And

35:36

so I have shifted. So you can shift,

35:38

but yes, generally, if you are a secure

35:40

person, it's generally because you were secure, she's

35:43

clearly attached to your parents or your carers

35:45

as a child. So conversely then

35:47

the opposite might be true that if

35:49

you're avoidant or preoccupied, it's because you

35:51

haven't had that at home. Yes. Children

35:55

who are in insecure

35:57

attachments, either anxious or... disorganised,

36:00

which is one of the ones we use

36:02

for children or ambivalent, then they are more

36:04

likely to be one of the more anxious

36:07

or dismissing attachment styles when they're older. So

36:09

if we look at preoccupied, preoccupied people are

36:11

high in proximity seeking, so they like to

36:13

be close to people, but they're high in

36:15

anxiety. So they worry a lot that that

36:17

person's going to leave them. And

36:20

the way they deal with that is by maintaining

36:22

proximity, because by being with that person,

36:24

we might call them clingy, that

36:27

person cannot stray, because I've got my eye

36:30

on you the entire time. So

36:32

they're preoccupied. And then

36:34

we have the two avoidance styles. So

36:36

there's fearful avoidance and like preoccupied, they

36:38

are very anxious about being left. But

36:41

the way they deal with it is

36:43

by avoiding proximity, avoiding intimacy, because if

36:45

they don't have a relationship, they can't

36:47

get hurt. So they avoid

36:50

it. And the last category is

36:52

dismissing avoidance and dismissing avoidant people are low

36:54

in anxiety and low in proximity. And we

36:56

kind of see these people as the island.

36:59

They're the sorts of people who don't really need

37:02

or necessarily want a relationship. They

37:04

don't avoid them because they're anxious about

37:07

it. They're just not that

37:09

fast. Really. I will say

37:11

dismissing avoidant category is the

37:13

one with the lowest number of people in it. Most

37:16

people do want a relationship. And

37:18

even dismissing avoidant people will end

37:20

up in relationships. But they are,

37:23

they can be quite a tricky customer to be

37:25

in a relationship with, I would say. Fascinating. And

37:27

I'm fascinated, we know when you meet people, or

37:29

when you fall in love, perhaps for the first

37:31

time, or you're coming out of a relationship and

37:33

you find a new person. I was talking to

37:35

somebody the other day who was talking about how

37:37

he felt when he met his wife and he,

37:39

you know, use the expression, you know, it was

37:41

a coup de coup de coup de, it was

37:43

literally our eyes met across the crowded room. And

37:46

that was it. You know, we just

37:48

knew what what would have been going

37:50

on in the brain then? I mean, is there something kind

37:52

of, I don't know, it's almost

37:54

kind of spellbinding and magical and can

37:56

that ever be created because it just

37:58

sounds amazing. Yes,

38:01

so yes, I mean, I will put

38:03

a damp note on things by saying love at first sight doesn't

38:05

exist. But certainly,

38:08

you can certainly, yes, that

38:10

massive whoosh of wow, feeling

38:13

amazing, chemicals, everything. So

38:16

what happens in your brain when you see someone

38:18

you are attracted to, is the

38:21

reason why you feel like that is there's an algorithm

38:23

in your brain, which is assessors

38:25

lots of different sensory inputs from that person. So

38:27

it will be what they look like, what they

38:29

sound like, how they move, if

38:31

you're close enough, how they smell, all

38:34

these different things. And it will put that

38:36

algorithm together, it is very complicated. And it

38:38

will work out whether this person is a

38:40

good person for you. And

38:42

the reason why I say that is we all have

38:44

a thing called a biological market value on our heads.

38:47

And that biological market value is based upon

38:49

how likely you are to be reproductively successful,

38:51

i.e. how likely you are to have kids

38:54

and pass those genes down, because that's all

38:56

really evolution cares about. And

38:58

the relationships that work best is when you are

39:00

with someone of similar biological market value to yourself.

39:04

And so your algorithm in your head takes all

39:06

this sensory information in, takes

39:08

into account a few other things like, am I looking

39:10

for a short term relationship or a long term relationship?

39:12

Because depending on which one you're looking for, it's slightly

39:14

different what you will look for in a partner. If

39:17

it fits nicely with your biological market

39:19

value, then it will go ping, lovely,

39:21

lots of oxytocin and dopamine will be

39:23

released in a particular area of the

39:26

brain called the nucleus accumbens. You'll become

39:28

amazingly confident, you'll suddenly feel terribly motivated,

39:30

you'll feel euphoric because you've had a

39:32

lovely hit of dopamine and you'll go

39:34

across the bar and say hello. So that is what was

39:36

happening in the person's head. It sounds a bit like a

39:39

slot machine. It was obviously ping. Yeah, it is.

39:41

It's a little bit like the number comes up. All

39:44

the theories come up in a line and that's it. It

39:46

all fits together. And

39:49

interestingly that you talk about things like

39:51

smell and in your

39:53

book you describe a number of different

39:55

studies. There's the T-shirt test where guys

39:57

have worn T-shirts and then women were

39:59

also identified. the most likely

40:01

fit and that's down to a genetic

40:04

predisposition which is then secreted through the

40:06

sweat onto the t-shirt. I mean it's

40:08

absolutely fascinating that all these things are

40:10

happening in a blink

40:12

of an eye without us consciously being

40:14

aware that our brains are processing going,

40:16

yeah, this pheromone is right, this chemical

40:19

means that this person has this particular

40:21

attribute inside their bodies within them that's

40:23

invisible but we sense it and we

40:25

think that they're a good fit so

40:27

we're going to go for it. Absolutely

40:30

and what you've got to remember is we've evolved,

40:32

all the other mammals, particularly the lesser mammals, are

40:34

highly sensory creatures, they get all their information from

40:36

their senses. Now what we've done is we've still

40:39

got that ability but on top of that we

40:41

have a massive neocortex that does lots of thinking

40:43

as well so we actually have a conscious element

40:45

of love as well but that sensory bit is

40:47

still there, it hasn't disappeared, it's just you're just

40:50

not aware of it that you're doing it. So

40:52

you actually, you know, when people talk to me

40:54

about algorithms on dating apps and all that sort

40:56

of thing, I do say to them, you will

40:58

never build an algorithm as good as your brain because

41:01

it has millions of years of evolution to be

41:03

really, really good at this. And

41:05

so, you know, it's taking in so much information

41:08

and then, you know, a little bit later when

41:10

your conscious brain kicks in then even more information

41:12

is going to be considered because then we start

41:14

consciously thinking about the suitability of this person. So,

41:16

you know, do they have

41:19

similar values to me? You know, well

41:22

my family likes them, do we have matching cultures, all

41:24

these sorts of things that you will then also, you

41:26

know, are my friends going to like them? And you

41:28

start to think about all these other things consciously so

41:31

there's so much information that

41:33

goes into whether or not

41:35

somebody is the right person for you. It's

41:37

interesting that we do actually have a number

41:40

of phrases that describe the physical sensations of

41:42

love, you know, having butterflies in our stomach

41:44

or feeling lovesick. You know, I was interested

41:46

to read in your book about the physiological

41:49

manifestations of jealousy for example, you

41:51

know, so are all these feelings

41:54

then physical? Are they reality?

41:56

It's not just something in our head?

42:00

reality and the reason why jealousy is very

42:02

physical is it's jealousy is there to bring

42:05

your attention to a threat to your relationship

42:08

and the idea is is that you know you

42:10

can then decide what you're going to do are

42:12

you going to cut your losses are you going

42:14

to increase the investment in your relationship are you

42:16

going to confront the person who is threatening

42:19

to take away your partner whatever it might be and

42:21

so it feels very physical because we need your

42:24

attention and so absolutely you

42:26

will feel sick you will sweat your

42:28

heart will race you'll feel shaky you

42:31

might get a headache you know all

42:33

of these things are there to draw

42:35

your attention to this survival threatening possibility

42:37

and the fact that you need to

42:39

do something about it so our physical

42:41

bodies are very involved

42:43

in our relationships you

42:45

know we literally as I said at the

42:47

beginning every single fiber in your being is

42:49

involved in your relationship every single mechanism in

42:51

your body is because they're so

42:53

important to you we can't really get this

42:55

wrong you've got to try and

42:58

get it right and therefore evolution has seen fit

43:00

to make sure that everything is

43:02

attending to that relationship for

43:05

you completely fascinating and I

43:07

guess moving on to a broader

43:09

look at social connections so broadening it

43:12

out from the idea of romantic love into

43:14

the love of our community it's fascinating to

43:16

see in your book the diagram about how

43:18

many people kind of are in our circle

43:20

you know five very close to us and

43:22

it spreads to 15 and then and then

43:24

closer and you know as it kind of spreads

43:27

out and we get wider and I was

43:29

very interested to see that particularly for this

43:31

audience here there seems to be an increase

43:33

for women around the age of 50 so

43:35

around menopause time that we

43:38

actually start to expand our

43:40

social connections and is that

43:42

because perhaps hormonally we're wanting

43:45

to share information we might

43:47

feel that we need a bit more

43:49

support we might need to feel that

43:51

we're not alone in what we're going

43:53

through you know have anthropologists have looked

43:55

at this from a menopausal perspective absolutely

43:58

yes so it's really interesting and And

44:00

that 50 line is particularly fascinating in

44:02

women actually. Sort of, yeah, the age around

44:04

menopause. Because what it seems to be is,

44:06

first of all, women have shed

44:09

that role of being reproductive. They've

44:11

probably got their kids off their

44:13

hands if they've had children. And

44:15

suddenly what they need out of life and what

44:18

they want out of life shifts. And

44:20

for many women, it shifts more towards friendship

44:22

than for example, back to their partner. And,

44:25

you know, not being to be a downer,

44:27

but there is a big increase in divorce

44:29

instigated by women. After the age of 50,

44:31

because suddenly you're in this, you're in this

44:33

situation where this person you were with was

44:35

a great partner and you selected them consciously

44:38

or not as a parent with

44:40

you. And suddenly maybe you

44:42

need something else out of life

44:44

now, because you've lost, you've shed

44:46

those responsibilities, you know, hormonally

44:49

you're not in that place anymore. And

44:51

therefore we tend to find that women do tend

44:53

to start shifting their perspective towards their friends rather

44:55

than towards their partner or towards a new partner.

44:58

Somebody who's going to meet different needs that they

45:00

now have, somebody to grow old with. So it

45:02

might be somebody who, you know, is

45:04

more companionate maybe, somebody who you can rely on, who's going

45:06

to care for you and you can care for them. Or

45:09

maybe you've got to this point where you just want a

45:11

new adventure and therefore you want a new partner

45:13

who's willing to, you know, grab a bag

45:15

and go around the world with you or whatever it might

45:17

be. And we find that women's

45:19

friendships at that point become much, much more

45:21

important. And for women,

45:23

very early on, obviously we did a

45:25

study comparing men's and women's friendships and

45:28

their romantic relationships. And what we found

45:30

is women tend to be, regardless of

45:32

age, more emotionally intimate with their female

45:34

best friend than they are with their

45:36

romantic partner. Women's friends are a special,

45:38

special group. In terms of what, conversation

45:40

and things that you might share. In

45:42

terms of conversation, you are much more

45:44

likely to reveal something very intimate, something

45:46

maybe very painful or maybe something very

45:48

private to your female best friend than

45:50

you necessarily are to your romantic partner.

45:53

You're likely to be much more vulnerable in front

45:55

of them. And that's probably because

45:58

when I wrote my chapter on friends, I... interviewed lots

46:00

of women about their friendships and what they always

46:02

say to them about their friendships is it's a

46:04

group of women who are just completely there for

46:07

you completely unjudgmental they've seen you in your best

46:09

times they've seen you in your worst times and

46:11

they're there for you and you

46:13

can't necessarily say that about a

46:15

partner necessarily. So it's like there's

46:17

no strength. I was really struck

46:20

by when you wrote in

46:22

your book about female friendship and

46:24

about how as women we tend

46:26

to have our female friends are

46:28

very often similar similar in

46:30

our outlook maybe in what they do our

46:33

connections or communities our interests

46:36

whereas when we select a

46:38

romantic partner that person may

46:40

actually be very different because

46:42

we're looking for somebody to support

46:44

us in other ways and

46:46

you know so maybe you know maybe

46:49

having that kind of simpatico relationship with

46:51

girlfriends is I guess understandable because they're

46:53

in a similar position to us and

46:56

they're likely perhaps to understand when we

46:58

open up and not be judgmental or

47:01

you know we can we can lose some

47:03

of the fear perhaps around that. It's the

47:05

same truth for guys that the guys have

47:07

you know good male friends that they can

47:09

also be kind of intimately open with. Men

47:11

are interesting. Men tend

47:14

to not have it's quite rare

47:16

for a man to have a

47:18

best friend. What

47:20

men tend to have is they tend to have a

47:22

group of friends who are kind of loosely

47:24

attached to each other and they tend to be brought

47:27

together for example by

47:29

shared interest so I don't

47:31

know cars or football or whatever it

47:33

might be poetry whatever it might be

47:35

they tend to and when men get

47:38

together they're very unlikely to just sit

47:40

and chat they will generally do something

47:42

then they might chat while they're doing it but they will

47:44

tend to do something whereas women are much more likely to

47:47

have much more intimate groups and even you know

47:49

meet quite regularly one-on-one with a friend much more

47:51

like to say they have a best friend or

47:53

a couple of best friends and for those relationships

47:56

to be very much based on talk

47:58

and the sharing of intimate details. So it's

48:00

very different. And when we look at male

48:02

best friendships, when you say to a

48:04

man, what do you get out of your male best

48:06

friendship? In a way it is a similar sanctuary for

48:09

the man, because again, the tensions that can exist

48:11

in a romantic relationship aren't there. But what they

48:14

tend to say is they tend to find like

48:16

a shared sense of humor and a shared ability

48:18

just to relax and be yourself. It's

48:21

slightly different. It's not about sharing intimacy.

48:23

It's a different way of dealing with

48:25

friendship. So to conclude then, in terms

48:28

of the health and the wellbeing benefits

48:30

that we often focus on

48:32

this particular show, when we're looking

48:34

at love here, does it really matter what

48:36

type of love it is? Whether it's romantic,

48:38

familial, maybe even with a

48:41

God or your spiritual guide or

48:43

your community, as long as there is

48:45

that connection and that sense of love,

48:47

or do you think there are types

48:49

of love that we should really be

48:51

definitely aiming to achieve and like tick

48:53

the boxes to ensure health and wellbeing?

48:56

No, you're absolutely right. It doesn't matter what

48:58

the sort of love is. So it

49:00

doesn't have to be romantic. It doesn't have to

49:03

be parental. You just have to find someone

49:05

or something to love in

49:07

your life. And that's again why I

49:09

wrote the book. So I wanted to say to

49:11

people, let's just realize it's not a hierarchy. So

49:14

romantic love is not at the top. It's

49:16

the pinnacle of achievement. Really? It's

49:19

just, it's horizontal. It's just the spectrum. So

49:22

pick the love that works for you and

49:24

make sure it's a healthy love. That's the

49:26

most important thing. Make sure it's mutually supportive

49:29

and go for it. It really, really

49:31

doesn't matter. But it is critical to your

49:33

health that you do have love in your

49:35

life. Brilliant. What a great note to end

49:38

on Anna. Thank you so much. And congrats

49:40

on the book. It's absolutely fascinating riveting stuff.

49:42

I'm going to be reading and rereading it.

49:44

So thank you. Thank you so much. Anna,

49:48

what a fascinating look at something we

49:50

can perhaps take for granted. So thank

49:53

you so much for your time. Well,

49:55

has any of this made you think

49:58

differently about how you prioritise? the

50:00

relationships in your life. Do let

50:02

me know on Instagram. We are

50:04

at lizalwellbeing.com and I'm on there

50:06

too at lizalme.com or I tell you

50:08

what else you can do. You can

50:11

email me now to tell me

50:13

your stories and indeed ask me your

50:15

questions. So in a few weeks time

50:17

I'm going to be giving you the

50:20

reins. What do you want

50:22

to ask me about living a better

50:24

second half? What do you want

50:26

to learn more about? What are you

50:29

intrigued to implement in your own life?

50:31

Well you can now email podcast at

50:34

lizalwellbeing.com and I might just be

50:36

answering your question on the show

50:38

very soon. And of

50:40

course if you'd like to listen

50:42

to that and all other episodes

50:44

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50:53

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50:56

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50:59

Well I've got you here. I would also love to

51:01

tell you about the new book that I have

51:03

written you may have guessed. It is

51:05

called A Better Second Half and

51:08

it has been a real labour of love.

51:11

Taken several years and is

51:13

the culmination really of many

51:15

many decades of my own

51:17

personal experience of wellbeing, what

51:20

works, what doesn't, health hacks

51:22

especially for midlife women, midlife

51:24

and beyond. How to have

51:26

a truly better second half.

51:29

Mentally, physically, emotionally,

51:31

spiritually, so many things I

51:34

cover. I really can't wait. Now

51:36

if you'd like to pre-order it is up

51:39

on Amazon now pre-order. Get your order in

51:41

early because it will be released at the

51:43

end of April or of course

51:45

you can pre-order from your local

51:47

bookseller. Always a good idea to

51:49

support the local book trade. Anyway

51:51

until the next time we chat

51:54

go well, goodbye. The

52:01

Lazar Wellbeing Show is presented by

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