0:00

All right, here we go, Max and Stacy.

0:03

Now I don't know is it official or unofficial

0:05

tourism board of El Salvador.

0:08

I got a lot to talk about.

0:09

I'm excited that you've taken the time to sit

0:11

down and talk with me, so thank you for that.

0:14

I want to talk about El Salvador, obviously,

0:16

something I've been super excited about, which is

0:18

like this passport system. I've been asking

0:21

you guys about it since you went down there. I

0:23

know there's news about that. I want to talk about that,

0:25

but I want to start up a little bit higher up on the food

0:27

chain, if we can, and sort of talk about maybe

0:30

the example that El Salvador is right really kind

0:32

of creating for the world, and maybe the direction that

0:34

the whole world seems to be shifting in.

0:37

Maybe at this point, and if

0:40

you're looking at mainstream headlines, there's a rise

0:42

of nationalism or far right extremism

0:45

sweeping across Europe.

0:46

And things like that. Obviously, I don't

0:48

think either of us think about it like that, but.

0:49

Really maybe it is. It

0:51

is sort of the pendulum, as I call it, swinging back.

0:55

And I saw a tweet that I think Max had put

0:57

out, which by the way, I haven't been on Twitter

0:59

for five months now. Someone hacked into my account,

1:01

reset my two fa and I haven't been able to get in Twitter

1:03

in five months. But you

1:06

said something about that living outside the US

1:08

for twenty years gave you an edge, and

1:11

so I know, I saw that there's a

1:13

whole bunch of like old footage of

1:16

you.

1:16

Guys that's been resurfacing.

1:18

You guys have been sharing and you've been talking

1:20

about these types of topics sort of you

1:23

know, Fiat money ruining the system,

1:25

the bankers, the kleptocracy there even

1:29

before bitcoin, and

1:31

so what is this that living outside the country

1:33

for twenty years and reporting on this has sort of given you

1:35

this edge to see how the world is shifting

1:37

right now.

1:38

Right, I'm Mark, Yeah, So you

1:40

know, the global empire that

1:43

is America is a debt

1:45

driven it's a financial

1:48

empire, and once

1:50

you leave the United States you see it more

1:53

clearly how it works in other countries. And

1:55

maxim Stacy have been reporting on this now

1:58

for many years. Stays and myself

2:00

both met as expats. We

2:03

had both been living out of the country for many years,

2:05

and so we came together and we were able to speak

2:08

really on the same wavelength about kind

2:11

of seeing the US from this

2:13

perspective of living outside of the US.

2:15

And I think that's why our financial

2:18

reporting had an edge to it, because we

2:20

were able to put it into context of the

2:23

global economy and the way other people see

2:25

it, other countries see it, and I think

2:27

that's kind of what I was getting out there.

2:31

Yeah, so just a different perspective. I know, I

2:33

travel a lot, so I understand that being

2:36

in a debt based economy. I mean it's not just the United

2:38

States. I mean, I know you were over in Europe

2:40

quite a bit reporting on Europe and so

2:42

forth. I mean that's also a debt based monetary

2:44

system as well. It's not the dollar, but I mean they're

2:46

still sort of on the dollar system or the euro dollar

2:49

system or printing euros. So

2:51

I mean they're basically in the same boat, sort

2:53

of the whole world in this fiat money boat, if you

2:55

will.

2:56

Yeah, exactly, And you're

2:58

right. All the countries starting in nineteen

3:00

seventy one went on a pure fiat money standard.

3:04

Europe, of course, as the European

3:06

Central Bank and the Bank of England and the

3:08

Federal Reserve Bank and the Bank

3:10

of Japan, but

3:12

they all kind of feedback to mother

3:15

the mothership that is the Federal

3:17

Reserve Bank. Certainly, after World War Two, the

3:19

US took this global role as being

3:21

the world's kind of banker, and

3:24

as a result, everybody kind

3:26

of answers to what's happening in

3:29

the US up until maybe things

3:31

have gotten much different with the advent

3:33

of bigcoin and the geopolitics

3:36

has changed somewhat. But yeah,

3:38

you're right, everyone is kind of in the same boat. So the

3:41

stuff that we're reporting on would relate

3:43

to everybody has that understanding and

3:45

they want to know why they live in this fiat

3:47

money system, why it's so crummy, and

3:50

so it does relate to everybody because

3:52

they all because we're all living in a similar

3:55

situation.

3:57

It seems like, you know, first people

3:59

that are paying attention and sort of understand this, it

4:03

seems like, well, it doesn't just seem

4:05

it is that the Fiat money system is broken.

4:07

It's broken from the start. I

4:10

think it's probably a lot of people. You

4:12

know, Harry Dent Junior has been writing books for twelve

4:14

years calling the end of you know, the end of the market, the

4:17

crash. People have been calling for the death of the dollar. On

4:20

one hand, it seems like the central

4:22

bankers continue to have more and more magic tricks up their

4:24

sleeve, and like, are you surprised

4:26

how long they've been able to keep this charade

4:28

going. I guess, like

4:31

I said, how many tricks they can pull their sleeve.

4:33

Well, I don't think it's really working because

4:36

the purchasing power

4:38

of fiat money all over the world continues

4:40

to decline, so and people

4:42

are starting to unders feel the inflation.

4:44

Even at the mothership country

4:46

in the US, inflation is really starting to

4:49

rage. And we see the wealth

4:51

and income gap spread all over the world,

4:53

and we see poverty rates increasing. That's the result

4:55

of the fiat money system. So that

4:58

the tricks are not really working,

5:00

and we stay it on the ground, there's

5:02

a lot more social unrest, and

5:04

I think that's what we would attribute

5:07

toward to the fiat money

5:09

system in the central banking system more

5:11

than any political aspect. This

5:13

is really the result of all

5:15

this money printing.

5:17

I would also add that

5:19

I am not very surprised

5:22

because look, you have perfect money, that

5:24

is bitcoin, and yet there

5:26

are also like a million.

5:30

Shit coins let's call them that.

5:32

And the reason why those exist

5:35

is because of that fiat's

5:37

mentality, that is, the majority

5:40

of the population will always be like that.

5:43

They will take the air drops, they will

5:45

take the student debt forgiveness, they

5:47

will take the Biden bucks, they

5:49

will take those free checks, they will take

5:51

the PPP loans, they will do all

5:53

that stuff, and that's what they like, and that keeps

5:56

them in that system, and that keeps that system

5:58

afloat. And so

6:01

I'm not surprised that it exists because

6:03

look, I just saw

6:05

a headline that Joe Biden was considering

6:08

a help to buy sort of scheme. Now,

6:10

this is a scheme that will help five hundred

6:12

thousand Americans.

6:13

Buy their home.

6:15

Well, Max and I were living in London

6:18

back after the first financial crisis, when,

6:20

of course Sotoshi in the Genesis

6:23

Block put a chancellor on brink a second

6:25

bailout for banks. Well around that same

6:27

time, they introduced a

6:30

help to buy scheme soon after that,

6:33

and it was called help to Buy, and

6:35

the taxpayer with fund for a lucky

6:37

few individuals twenty

6:39

percent of their deposit for their properties because

6:41

the property prices were too high because

6:44

of all the money printing from Kiwi to bail out

6:46

the banks. So Yeah,

6:49

that's the system. That's the system that

6:52

most people like. If they could

6:55

get a free home off the taxpayer,

6:57

they'll take the free home. Many

6:59

people, many people in crypto, very

7:02

few people in bitcoin took those

7:04

PPP loans, right, there was a whole

7:07

anybody who took more than one hundred thousand

7:09

dollars I believe were made public

7:11

in the US. So remember these were free

7:14

loans. They were loans that you didn't actually have to

7:17

pay back. Well, look at the number of

7:19

billionaire crypto folk that

7:21

took those loans. You know,

7:23

this is what they do, that's their mindset.

7:26

So it doesn't surprise me.

7:29

I always think back to the quote from Vladimir

7:31

Lenin. Supposedly he was talking to John may Or Keynes and he

7:33

said that the best way to destroy capitalism

7:35

is to debouch the currency through inflation.

7:38

And he said, at the end you lose all relation

7:40

to money, and the best way to get riches through gambling

7:42

and theft. Yes, and like, if that doesn't

7:45

sum up sort of where the world is today,

7:47

gambling and theft to your point, all the all

7:49

coins, the gambling, the DeFi

7:52

and the theft right just outright theft everywhere,

7:54

but Max. I love that that

7:56

shift that you that you said, and that's actually

7:58

kind of what I was thinking about and want to ask you about

8:01

when you think about FIAT money crashing,

8:04

what do you consider crashing? Just

8:07

because the governments have been able to stay in power

8:09

and keep kicking the candle of the road doesn't mean it's not crashing.

8:12

But really, if you look at the societal impacts,

8:14

I mean it's bad. I mean if you look

8:16

at the you know, the mortality rate in the US

8:19

is dropping. To your point, the social unrest happening

8:21

all over the world, then you see it happening

8:23

more, you know, overseas. The

8:26

stuff that I'm seeing out of Europe seems really really bad.

8:29

I guess kind of what Stacey just said

8:31

there about everybody wants to get

8:33

that free house. Not everybody, but a lot of people are

8:35

happy to get that free house. And so I'm

8:37

a little bit surprised, and I just want to get your take on this.

8:40

I kind of thought that with democracy

8:42

being sort of this tyranny of the minority, if

8:44

you will, like, once you know, fifty

8:46

one percent of the population has learned they could

8:48

just vote themselves more money,

8:51

why wouldn't they just continue to vote themselves

8:53

more money, Like why would they ever vote to give themselves less?

8:56

And so it almost seems like there's no way out of it. But

8:59

seeing what happened in Argentina, where

9:01

like the people voted for a new

9:03

president to like gut the whole you know,

9:05

government handout system, sort

9:08

of shocked me. I don't know what were your thoughts

9:10

on that. Maybe this this pendulum swinging and the

9:12

people are ready to vote themselves less money.

9:15

Right, Well, we've called it the Global Insurrection against

9:17

Banker Occupation or GIABO.

9:20

You know, we coined that phrase on our show maybe

9:22

seven years ago, and it

9:24

came after Occupy Wall Street. You remember, Occupy

9:26

Wall Street was really the first time active was targeted

9:29

Wall Street and targeted the money centers

9:31

as being the source of problems. And

9:33

that meme, that idea has grown ever

9:36

since. People starting to understand that it's

9:38

the bankers, it's the money, it's the central bankers,

9:40

it's the Ron Paul ideas that have been

9:43

talked about for many years. And

9:45

to your point about, you know, looting

9:47

becomes a way of life. I know

9:50

Stacey refers to the BOSSI

9:52

had quote about this, and it's so it's

9:54

bears repeating. It's so true.

9:57

Looting essentially becomes a

9:59

way of life and it

10:01

becomes normalized. And so

10:04

or I would say, I've said in interviews before,

10:07

where if you took fraud out of the American

10:09

system, there would be virtually no economy

10:11

left. It's it's an

10:13

economy based on fraud, built on

10:15

fraud, and it's without

10:19

the fraud there would be there would be very little

10:21

left. It's a mechanism to encourage

10:23

fraud.

10:24

I would also add to that, of

10:26

course, mentioning Argentina and then the

10:29

US in Europe, is that

10:31

the Ponzi scheme nature of it

10:33

means that of course, the further you

10:36

are from the money printing center and

10:38

there is only the US dollar right in the fiat

10:40

world. Everything else is based

10:43

off of that, like trades against the US dollar.

10:46

So the US,

10:49

what you see there like they're just

10:51

entering the debt forgiveness stage for the

10:53

young people. What you saw in Argentina

10:56

was that melay one because of the young people.

10:58

The young people are not the ones that get the

11:00

money printing first, and all the debt and all

11:03

the schemes that have been plundering

11:06

Argentina for the last twenty thirty years

11:08

has all gone to the boomers. Well, the same

11:10

thing has happened in the US and Europe, but the

11:13

US is able to prolong

11:15

it longer because they have

11:17

the money printer. They have the number one money

11:20

printer, and so they could start

11:22

you know, you see it in the US with the discharging

11:25

of the student debts. Every

11:27

week or two, there's another new round of

11:29

a debt forgiveness for millennials

11:32

and zoomers. Right, So Argentina

11:35

and Europe can't do that so easily like

11:37

the US can. And I

11:39

think you're that's why you're seeing like

11:43

massive political shifts in

11:45

places like Europe and Argentina.

11:47

First, the US

11:50

has a higher tolerance that

11:52

will be the last FIAT

11:54

man standing. And I think

11:57

that's bad for them

11:59

in a way. You know, I think they're going to be

12:01

the last ones to I

12:03

guess the meek shall inherit the earth is

12:06

like they'll

12:08

inherit the earth that they've created

12:10

that their FIAT debts have created.

12:12

Yeah, to add on to that point, in

12:15

a recent conversation, an interesting

12:17

point came out in that the world

12:19

seems to be entering into this fourth turning,

12:22

This idea, this convergence of various

12:24

cycles at the end

12:26

of kind of a nasty or beginning of

12:28

a nasty period. But there seems

12:30

to be one country that's the first to emerge

12:33

from the fourth turning, and that is al Savador.

12:35

Al Savador had already went through, it's

12:38

horrendous, a multi decade

12:40

collapse, and starting with the election of

12:42

President Kelly in twenty nineteen, it has

12:44

now emerged. It's emerging from that.

12:46

So this is what makes al Savador so interesting

12:49

is that it's really the first out

12:51

of the box to lead

12:54

the world in a way that people

12:56

used to associate with the United States

12:58

and other countries. But actually Salvador is becoming

13:01

a world leader because it's already had the

13:03

tough times. It now has

13:05

the leader in President Bakelly,

13:07

and it is now showing the way, which is

13:09

why we're here really because we want

13:11

to be a part of that.

13:14

Yeah, I love that, And it feeds into

13:16

we'll move into that, and it feeds into what

13:18

basically Stacey was just saying, where the US will probably

13:20

the last one to move because the US has everything

13:22

to lose, right, and so it's like a business can't

13:25

really disrupt themselves, so I codec

13:27

did and introduce the digital cameras.

13:29

You know, so to speak.

13:30

And so since the US sort of has the US dollar

13:32

the most to lose, they'll probably be the last to move,

13:34

unfortunately. And in this world of game theory, the

13:36

first mover has the advantage, and so El Salvador

13:38

is certainly there. But going back

13:41

to sort of this game theory, and when you think about

13:43

the way competition works, like competition

13:45

always provides you know, different

13:48

tests and hopefully better service,

13:50

better products, better prices, so to speak. And so to

13:52

Cel Salvador sort of stand

13:55

up with this model and sort of demonstrate it

13:57

for the world. It puts

13:59

this game theory to play the

14:02

There's a lot riding on that though, right

14:04

because like because it is that first mover,

14:06

it is this kind of model for the world,

14:09

like it needs to be successful. I

14:11

mean, is a lot I mean do you feel that pressure,

14:13

like a lot is hanging in the balance there.

14:15

Yeah, we feel an enormous amount of

14:17

pressure to succeed. And

14:21

you see, just as you

14:24

said that it is really important

14:26

that we win. And we know

14:28

this for a fact because the biggest

14:31

loser will be the

14:34

centers of power of the FIAT system,

14:37

and you see them wish for

14:39

our failure the hardest and most vocally.

14:42

So Washington, d C, New

14:44

York City, London, that's where

14:46

you find the most fud, the

14:48

most anti El Salvador, the most

14:50

anti Bukele sort of fud

14:53

is from those centers

14:55

of power in their media, you

14:57

know, lap dogs, right, So that's where

15:00

you'll see the most negativity about

15:02

us, because they understand just

15:05

how important it is for them

15:07

that we fail. So we have

15:11

you know, Max and I really do work around the

15:13

clock, seven days a week here

15:16

to make sure that we win, you

15:19

know, not only establishing that

15:21

really solid foundation of

15:24

of you know, education system, of

15:26

the you know, the regulatory system

15:29

and regime, the pure

15:31

excellence. Like so

15:34

for example, look at what happened in New

15:36

York City. Look at the number of collapses

15:39

Celsius block by sbf

15:43

is through the US system, even though it

15:45

was nominally in the Bahamas, like

15:47

they could get away with that. Nobody's

15:50

like talking about the failure of the US system.

15:52

But had we had.

15:53

Even one, like even a

15:56

tiny one, not even those multi

15:58

billion dollar collapses, we had had

16:00

a one hundred thousand dollars or a two hundred

16:03

thousand dollars scam coin here, like

16:05

we would have been like shut out

16:07

of the global system, like they would have, like the media

16:10

would have just like jumped for

16:12

joy and just like pointed fingers at us.

16:14

And this was a proof that bitcoin has

16:16

failed, there sort of thing. So the

16:19

the we know that we can only

16:21

be gold medal like

16:24

runners, like we can only finish first,

16:26

like we we.

16:27

Can't slip up at all.

16:29

So we know this for

16:31

for El Salvador

16:34

and for Bitcoin, that we we must win.

16:38

When you say that it's so important that we succeed

16:40

and that we win, what does success look like?

16:42

I mean, is this like a path that your honors

16:44

are like an end goal?

16:45

Like what a success or? Winning?

16:47

It looks like President Bukelly, right, Like,

16:49

look, the guy doesn't put one

16:51

foot wrong, like every every speech he

16:53

makes, every I told you so he

16:55

tweets. That's that's what

16:57

winning looks like, right Like every

17:00

thing we're doing is what winning looks like.

17:02

So I think so far, like we have

17:04

just been winning, winning, winning, winning, And

17:07

whether it's the homicide

17:09

rate, we're now the safest

17:11

in the America's right, even the

17:13

Spanish press is now, wrote

17:16

wrote an article this past week where

17:18

they were saying that El Salvador

17:21

is a miracle, the Boukelli miracle,

17:24

right that they were following on what Colombia

17:26

had written in their Lassimana, the most

17:29

read magazine in the country,

17:31

just a few months ago, said it's a Bukelli miracle.

17:33

Right, that's Columbia,

17:36

Columbia magazine in Colombia,

17:39

the country. So they said on

17:42

the cover it said the Bukelli miracle. And

17:45

this is part and parcel. It's

17:47

the same person, it's the same

17:49

leader, with the same you

17:51

know, virtues like

17:54

fortitude, like patients, like

17:56

all the things that President Boukelly has

17:58

that delivers not only bitcoin, but also

18:00

the security state, right, the peace

18:03

and security that had long,

18:07

you know, been unable. Nobody

18:10

here had peace or safety for forty

18:12

fifty years because plunder

18:14

was a way of life for a group of men in this society.

18:17

So they plundered rather than protected.

18:20

And I think that's you know, it's

18:23

totally makes sense that he would be a

18:25

bitcoiner and provide

18:28

security, you know, secure those blessings

18:30

of liberty, so that you would have the

18:32

leader of the country who gave

18:34

you bitcoin legal tandar would also protect

18:37

life, liberty, and property. And that's what he's

18:39

done. Those are classic Enlightenment ideals.

18:41

That's what Bastia said in The Law when he said,

18:44

when plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in

18:46

society, over the course of time, they create for

18:48

themselves a legal system that authorizes

18:50

it and a moral code

18:53

that justifies it so or glorifies

18:55

it. So that's that's

18:57

what we had here, and that's what we no longer

19:00

have, Like the legal code

19:02

no longer authorizes it or

19:04

justifies it or condones it, and

19:06

the moral code definitely

19:09

has changed radically.

19:10

That we just want to be winners.

19:11

That we don't want to be the losers that we were

19:14

under that system of plunder.

19:16

We want to be winners. And it feels good.

19:19

Yeah.

19:21

For the listeners who was quoting

19:23

from The Law by Frederick Bastiat,

19:25

highly recommend reading the book. It's like an hour read.

19:28

He was defining the term legal plunder.

19:30

Right, so they steal from you legally, they create the system.

19:33

So go read that book. But so winning

19:35

is like not getting anything wrong and continuing

19:38

to make progress both in life, liberty and property

19:40

to the point that you made what about like a longer

19:42

term. So, like you know, there was a lot of

19:45

fud, if you will, coming out on El Salvador because

19:47

of now the IMF isn't going to continue to give them

19:50

loans and are they going to

19:52

be able to pay it back and things like that. So is some of the

19:54

success being able to, like say, build enough

19:56

of an economy around

19:58

tourism and industry that there are no longer we're

20:00

depending on the IMF for handouts And is that a

20:02

big piece of that?

20:03

And how realistic is that?

20:06

Well, the success

20:08

looks like proof of work, right, proof of work delivers

20:11

success, and we work and work and work.

20:13

And one of the metrics of success that Max

20:16

and I look at, and contrary

20:18

to what the mainstream media the Washington

20:21

Post, the New York Times, the New

20:23

Yorker, Bloomberg, Wall Street Journal,

20:26

of all written articles about El Salvador, and

20:28

what they look at is they pick a metric

20:30

that they decide is what matters, and that decides

20:33

whether or not it is a success. And so

20:35

they come here and they look to see if every

20:37

single papoose Arehea is accepting

20:39

bitcoin, and therefore they say if they don't

20:42

accept bitcoin, just twenty percent they

20:44

say accept bitcoin. Therefore, adoption

20:46

has not happened well. To

20:49

me, what adoption matters is

20:52

who around the world, the best and the brightest

20:54

around the world, Which of the best on the

20:56

brightest are adopting El Salvador. Not

20:59

only is their home their headquarters, but

21:01

also like their spiritual home,

21:03

like where they feel just like you

21:06

know, in previous centuries, for previous

21:08

decades, people were spiritually

21:10

connected to the United States and

21:13

the notion of the Republic that

21:15

we stood for and the shining city on the hill.

21:17

They really, you know, they were spiritually connected

21:20

to that. We meet people all the time that

21:23

hadn't been to the US but wanted to be in

21:25

the US. They wanted to be citizens of the US.

21:27

They wanted to move to the US and work in

21:29

the US and build in the US. Well, that's

21:31

the sort of adoption that we're looking for. So for

21:34

example, when you look at Silicon Valley in the nineties,

21:37

you know, you didn't have Bloomberg and walshle

21:39

at Journal and Financial Times. Go there

21:41

and go to every cafe and see if they were if

21:44

that cafe had Wi Fi or an email address,

21:46

to see whether or not the Internet was catching

21:49

on and whether or not they were adopting the Internet.

21:51

Well, no, they look what was

21:54

really going on was the best and the brightest

21:56

builders in the world of Internet

21:59

systems, of websites, of platforms

22:01

of the Internet. They were

22:03

there, right, and that's why it became

22:06

the massive success that

22:09

we believe will become. Like, that's what our future

22:11

looks like for bitcoin capital

22:13

markets and the post Fiat

22:16

world.

22:18

Yeah, I think the Fiat money system

22:21

and has just driven our society to point where we're

22:23

just instant gratification on everything, and so

22:25

everybody just expects way too much too soon.

22:28

And to your point, you know, you wouldn't go to Silicon Valley

22:30

and.

22:30

Like, oh, it's been three years, how come everyone's

22:32

not using it?

22:33

You know, the internet was around for two decades and

22:35

we still had less than ten percent people that ever

22:37

bought anything online two decades later. So

22:40

things happened slowly. So

22:42

you have to sort of look at like the signposts along

22:44

the way, and you can see a lot of that. And it

22:46

starts with creating that freedom

22:48

culture and these strong property

22:50

rights, and it has to start there, and it's going to take

22:52

a long time.

22:53

For that to start gaining traction.

22:55

And so you have to be happy with the progress, not just

22:58

the end result of that, but

23:00

does the end result and maybe this is three

23:02

four five decades, I mean,

23:04

the end result would hopefully that it could sort

23:07

of get off of this debt money system and

23:09

stop being dependent on the

23:11

economic hitman, if you will, of the IMF.

23:14

Yeah.

23:14

Well, we have a few things going in

23:17

our favor here. First

23:19

of all, you have what I call b klonomics,

23:22

which we can get to.

23:24

Is that different from Bidenomics, Yeah,

23:27

the opposite.

23:28

Well, you know, it's all

23:30

about private property and

23:32

economic freedom, but there's also a

23:35

push toward expanding the public domain.

23:37

So you see, for example, this new library

23:40

that was open in historic downtown sen

23:43

Salvador, that'll stand for one hundred years, one hundred

23:45

and fifty years. That's going to be a long

23:47

standing institution that will outlive

23:49

everybody around today. But

23:52

that's a public good, that's public.

23:55

The public domain has expanded, you

23:57

know. I remember back in the nineteen sixties, America

24:00

celebrating freedom of speech gave us

24:02

the pushback against the Vietnam War.

24:05

It also the United States government put

24:07

a man on the moon, right, that was a government

24:09

project. So that was a combination

24:11

of the two. So here you have President

24:14

Boukelly who's all about economic freedom

24:16

and bitcoin, but he's also expanding the public

24:18

domain and doing so in a radically

24:20

transparent manner, very cost

24:22

efficient way. And

24:26

so I see this these trends kind of continuing

24:30

into the next five years

24:32

of his presidency and really

24:35

just being that beacon of

24:37

hope, that shining city on a hill, and

24:40

you're going to just see a lot of folks mimicking

24:43

that and emulating that and saying, you know, if they

24:45

can do it, why can't we. So it's just

24:47

become this tremendous

24:50

power of example that's changing

24:52

people's minds.

24:54

In terms of changing people's minds, what

24:57

we're also doing here, President

25:00

Bukelly is changing the perception

25:02

of El Salvador in a way that guarantees

25:06

long term success. So when he opened the

25:08

library, what in his speech

25:10

he referred to in terms

25:13

of the public space being

25:15

better than the private space.

25:18

He referred to ancient Rome and ancient

25:20

Greece.

25:21

And if you think of.

25:24

Florence, like I always say, what we're building

25:26

here is Renaissance two point oh, that this

25:28

is Florence two point oh. And

25:32

the reason why we know Medici is, Yeah,

25:35

he was a rich guy, right, But there were

25:37

quite a few rich guys

25:39

in the Italian city states, right,

25:42

there were some probably richer

25:44

than Medici.

25:45

But we don't remember them.

25:47

Why don't we remember them because

25:49

they didn't build a Renaissance,

25:52

right, They weren't the ones. I

25:54

mean, they obviously participated,

25:56

they followed the Florin that you

25:58

know, they copied the Florin in Venice,

26:01

and you know, of course Venice was also

26:04

quite associated with the Renaissance. But everybody

26:07

remembers Florence because of

26:09

what Medici did, what he left behind,

26:12

like the David in the in the public

26:14

square in

26:17

Florence. Now, did Medici finance

26:20

that with the hope of flipping

26:22

it as an NFT or like,

26:25

you know, was he hoping to flip it and gain

26:28

more money or was he thinking

26:30

that five hundred, six hundred years from

26:32

then people would still be going to Florence

26:35

and marveling at this masterpiece.

26:38

You know what we're creating here?

26:40

And Max Offen says it is a masterpiece

26:42

and I think, yeah, President

26:45

Bucelli is creating a masterpiece

26:48

here.

26:49

Yeah.

26:50

I took the family to Florence this summer

26:52

for the first time, and I

26:55

went on we hired a guide, went on a financial tour

26:57

tour the whole Medici thing. It was really awesome, and

27:00

I was consistently just blown away by just how

27:02

big, how grand all that stuff was. Right, but

27:05

I mean thinking about how much time after interview,

27:07

but how much money that cost to

27:09

build back then, and Florence

27:11

was just a textile hub, I mean

27:13

like fabrics, And

27:15

then we went to Venice and I see all these like atheeds.

27:18

I mean, it just blows my mind. And

27:20

it just made me think, like, only on a gold

27:23

florin only on a sound money standard, could

27:25

you do something like that, Like there's just no way we could

27:27

do that today with inflation where it is. But going

27:30

back to sort of building that

27:32

sort of monument and sort of helping to fund

27:34

that shift, I think it's even bigger. So like sure

27:36

they left that stuff that we go look at today

27:39

and it's still there.

27:40

And like I said, I was just there. It was amazing.

27:42

But like really with the El Salvador,

27:44

sort of with this first move or advantage, it's

27:46

not just about what's being built in Nol Salvador,

27:48

it's what they could influence the rest of the

27:50

world to do.

27:52

And so really.

27:54

I'd love your take on this, seeing that you've lived around

27:57

the world for twenty years. But you

27:59

know, South America, Central America, the Americas,

28:01

if you will, you know, somewhat

28:04

culturally different, obviously much

28:06

different than you might have in the Middle East and the Arab

28:08

nations, et cetera. But we

28:10

have these like two different paths

28:13

that are being chosen. It seems like, so you have like El

28:15

Salvador going you know, pro freedom,

28:18

if you will, and then next door Nicaragua

28:20

like they're going full communist. In South

28:22

America, you have you know, Chile

28:25

adopting a communist constitution, Columbia

28:27

adopting a communist but then you have like Argentina

28:29

going to a libertarian So we're sort of seeing

28:32

that plane out in real time.

28:35

I mean, that is that how you're framing this is how

28:37

you're seeing that.

28:37

Well, like Hiak said

28:39

in that famous video in the eighties that Austrian

28:42

economics is great in theory,

28:44

but you know, we will never see in practice

28:46

because we'll always be a subject

28:49

to see out money in the central bankers. Only if

28:51

by some work around, by some slime

28:53

mechanisms, right, would we have a money

28:55

that was separate from the state. Can we

28:57

ever really see if this stuff would work? And

29:00

at the time people said, yeah, of course that will never

29:02

happen. But in two thousand and nine

29:04

it did happen. Money was created

29:07

that separates money from state. Is totally

29:09

decentralized money. And that's the key.

29:11

You know, there is before bitcoin, in after

29:13

bitcoin and alsaveadro may

29:16

bitcoin legal tender, and it

29:18

matches perfectly with the leader. President

29:21

Bukelli is somebody who

29:24

has leaned into that and seeing

29:26

that decentralization

29:29

and giving power back to the

29:31

people and letting the people

29:33

decide. He's always making a reference to this, I'm

29:35

here for the people, I serve the people, let the people decide,

29:38

and has worked wonderfully here.

29:40

So I think that for the first step for other countries

29:43

is to understand the role bitcoin plays

29:45

and all of this. Obviously, in communist countries

29:47

we know that there's it never works, so

29:50

we know the end game there it's failure.

29:52

It always is one hundred percent failure. In

29:54

the case of countries that are going to rely on a fee

29:56

money standard, we know that now

29:59

definitively have or three hundred years of experimentation,

30:01

the central bank money system. Is

30:04

it failed? It didn't work.

30:06

I also want to add to this

30:09

is this there

30:11

will never be another El Salvador.

30:14

I believe not for another

30:17

five hundred years, because

30:19

that's the thing when you talk about

30:22

communism or capitalism or Republican

30:24

party or Democratic party, these are like political

30:27

parties and political ideas.

30:30

That are now dead.

30:32

President Bukeli is a

30:34

leader and we don't know

30:36

what that looks like. That's not something that we

30:39

in a modern history have any

30:41

sort of We

30:43

don't recognize that. We don't know what

30:45

he is because we've never seen a leader

30:48

like that. He's a one and five hundred

30:50

year sort of leader.

30:52

And when I

30:54

I.

30:54

Mean there's only been like maybe

30:57

fifty mostly

30:59

men throughout history who have been leaders,

31:02

right, and he's one of them. So

31:04

to have that is very

31:06

hard work. And

31:10

how you know that nobody recognizes

31:12

what it is is that they keep

31:14

on calling him a miracle or the Bukelly

31:16

miracle. That it's like divine from

31:19

out of this world. Is nothing that we've seen before.

31:21

But that's because we don't

31:24

create leaders anymore.

31:26

You know, Alexander the.

31:27

Great, who was his

31:30

teacher, was like one of the three

31:32

grades of philosophy, Aristotle,

31:34

Socrates, or Plato, like I

31:36

think it was Aristotle.

31:37

So like they were trained

31:40

to be great. He was trained to be great.

31:42

He was destined to be great, because

31:44

that was how we trained people

31:46

back then. That's what mattered back then. And

31:50

I think President Bukelly and

31:52

by the way, all his brothers, so I think it's

31:55

like he was trained.

31:56

His family.

31:59

Taught them those virtues, like

32:01

if you look up the cardinal virtues

32:03

or the heavenly virtues, like and you

32:05

look at just through his actions,

32:08

not just his words, look through his actions

32:11

and see how many

32:13

of those you know that he

32:15

had, so how many

32:18

he has right And you

32:20

know, I always talk about the fortitude and

32:22

patients like because those are the things

32:25

that stand out to me the most,

32:27

and especially the fortitude, like he's

32:29

he stood really firm when

32:32

all of the world was mocking

32:35

and laughing at El Salvador for adopting

32:37

bitcoin and then soon after

32:39

for you know,

32:41

securing the right rights to life, liberty

32:43

and property for the people, like they were calling

32:46

him a horrible names and jeering

32:48

and threatening El Salvador

32:50

because of you know, kicking out the gangs

32:53

and arresting the gangs and stopping them from plundering

32:55

the people. Well he was you

32:58

know, he he remained for and

33:00

believed in his vision of what he saw

33:03

Al Salvador is becoming. So that's

33:05

why I think, and I said this on the stage

33:07

at Miami twenty twenty three,

33:10

is that I don't think there will be another one. Not

33:13

because you know, like

33:15

in some cult or drinking some Bukeli

33:18

koul aid. I just think from my own observation,

33:21

even not knowing him personally, but just

33:23

through his actions as a leader, you

33:25

could see that we're not going to have We haven't

33:28

had a leader like this for many,

33:31

many hundreds

33:33

of years, like especially if

33:35

you put it into the context, we've

33:37

had great orators, and that's

33:39

one important ingredient to be a great

33:41

leader, to have that ability to

33:44

persuade. But we've

33:46

never had somebody overcome the

33:48

obstacles that were in the way

33:50

of somebody like President Boukelly

33:53

running the most dangerous country on earth,

33:56

in in debt and impoverished

33:58

country. So that he overcame those

34:01

and that we're treated like

34:05

that the world knows our name now

34:08

is quite remarkable for this little

34:11

country.

34:12

Well to Stacy's point, so if

34:14

in fact, the al Savador

34:17

Bukelly miracle is irreproducible,

34:21

and instead of waiting

34:23

for another country to

34:25

become the next Alsavador, the

34:27

only option would be to move to El Savador.

34:31

So I think that's what's going to be driving

34:33

a lot of folks too actually move to

34:35

El Savador. And we

34:37

see that in the numbers, right, the number

34:39

of people at the southern border in the United States

34:42

who are fleeing South America and Central

34:44

America. Well, one country is an outlier,

34:47

and that is Al Savador. There's now

34:49

almost equilibrium. There's now almost

34:51

as many people fleeing too El

34:53

Savador as there are people

34:56

leaving Al Savador. So that speaks to

34:58

the uniqueness of what's happening here.

35:00

And I also want

35:02

to bring it back to Florence because again,

35:04

like there were a load of very wealthy

35:07

rulers of the other city states.

35:09

And yeah, they did finance some public

35:11

art, and yeah, they did finance some of the

35:13

same artists, and they did copy

35:16

the florin and they had the duke kat and other

35:18

currencies like that. But it

35:21

was medici more than just that.

35:24

It wasn't just he was rich. It wasn't just that he

35:26

had good taste, aesthetic taste. And who

35:29

was it that said recently that, oh,

35:32

the the ambassador sal Salvador

35:34

from China mentioned in that

35:37

public of the inauguration

35:40

of the library. He mentioned

35:43

how that President Bucelli,

35:46

who Max calls a philosopher king, that

35:48

he has this amazing aesthetic taste.

35:50

Well, yeah, okay, so Medici had that. But what

35:53

Medici also had was fortitude, of

35:55

course, and that's the strength

35:57

of character is very difficult to have. Remember

36:00

he stood up against the Vatican, and the Vatican

36:03

the Pope excommunicated

36:06

the entirety, the entire population

36:08

of Florence because they stood behind

36:11

Medici. And they stood behind Medici because

36:13

Medici stood behind them. So that

36:16

was in those days

36:18

it was a very powerful tool

36:21

to cut somebody off, to excommunicate

36:23

them from the church, as the equivalent of excommunicating,

36:26

of sanctioning from swift for example.

36:29

So those sort of threats get issued

36:31

today from the modern papacy,

36:33

that is the you know, the New York

36:35

fed the and the Washington DC

36:38

elite, so that those are their sort of tools.

36:40

And yet you know, the population

36:43

here stood behind President Bukelly throughout

36:45

everything, and the same that happened

36:47

in Florence. So there are many many

36:49

traits, well, there are seven virtues.

36:54

Another parallel that I'm just thinking of as

36:56

you're talking through is back to what I said earlier

36:58

about this long term perspective.

37:00

And so Medici was building these buildings

37:02

that were taking forever. I mean some of them,

37:04

some of these things he was doing wouldn't even be around,

37:06

you know, in his lifetime for example. And

37:10

what you know, what Bukaele's doing in El Salvador,

37:12

he probably you know, he may not be alive to

37:15

see really the full fruit of what

37:17

he's planting right now today. And

37:19

just compare that to Biden in the United

37:21

States. I mean just this week or now last

37:23

week, the Fed pivoted off of their

37:26

stance of tightening monetary policy because we

37:28

have an election coming up.

37:29

It's like, let's just focus on the next nine

37:31

months.

37:33

Like forget about my kids and my grandkids.

37:35

Let's focus on the next nine months. And so it's like

37:37

that's a in stark contrast.

37:39

You know.

37:39

Another start contrast is you

37:42

have Europe putting in these laws over

37:44

the internet, which is basically going to make them like

37:46

have a great firewall like China. I mean,

37:48

like literally, that's like the path they're going

37:50

down. And so we see this like

37:53

one shift towards more communism,

37:55

if you will, and one going towards more freedom. I

37:58

want to go back to what you'd said, Stacey, this

38:00

is what I'm pretty interested in this. I've been

38:02

trying to get information from you guys since you left

38:04

to go down to El Salvador. But you talked about, you

38:07

know, now starting to attract some of the best and the brightest

38:09

people into El Salvador. I

38:13

think, you know, people to your point sort of attached

38:15

to it spiritually. They want to go to a place that has

38:17

the freedom and even though it may not be as nice

38:19

as where they're at, the direction

38:22

is right and if there's strong private

38:24

property rights and freedom, then there's a good place to

38:26

start businesses and things like that.

38:28

So what is the path now? I know they

38:30

just recently announced some sort of initiative to get

38:32

people to.

38:33

Come down there. There's like a new

38:35

freedom passport or something like that. It's like, what's the

38:37

path for somebody to come down, move

38:39

down there, start a business, invest into the company,

38:42

country, build companies, et cetera.

38:43

Well, of course, you can email

38:46

us at the Bitcoin Office O NBTC

38:48

at Presidencia dot gob dot SV

38:51

and we will help you know

38:53

onboard any bitcoiners also

38:56

we will be having a website

38:59

soon or bitcoiners

39:01

in particular. We have a freedom

39:03

passports and that is part of our

39:05

renaissance two point zero and attracting

39:08

the best.

39:08

On the right is so you

39:10

can see what.

39:12

President Bukelly has managed in just two years.

39:14

Yes, I mean he's been in office for

39:16

four years, but for

39:19

the first two years he did not have

39:21

any control of Congress. So for

39:23

two years now you've seen what he's

39:26

done with the ability to

39:28

lead, and what he's done

39:31

is quite remarkable. Not only has he

39:33

transformed the

39:35

economy through bitcoin, but he's

39:37

transformed he's rebranded the country

39:40

from the most dangerous on earth to the

39:42

coolest place that everybody wants to be. Right,

39:45

So he's rid the country of gangs

39:47

that had plagued the country for

39:50

decades. He rid the

39:52

country of these two plunder

39:55

politics, right, these two parties that plundered

39:58

the nation over and over.

40:00

When we're doing a lot of work

40:02

with Volcano energy and the bitcoin mining

40:05

here, one of the things you note is

40:07

that a lot of the electric grid

40:11

was basically plundered for the past

40:13

forty fifty years by those two parties.

40:15

They didn't any money that came

40:18

towards investing in the grid.

40:20

They just stole it. The president

40:22

of the time would steal it and flee to

40:24

Nicaragua or flee to the United

40:26

States. There's one former president

40:29

of El Salvador that stole billion dollars

40:31

and he's he's in the US being

40:33

harbored there.

40:35

So that sort.

40:37

Of I saw, I saw Zelenski's buying

40:39

like a twenty million dollar house in Florida.

40:41

Now exactly same thing exactly.

40:43

So that's what we had here and that's

40:45

what's over and he's done that in just two years.

40:47

So what we're trying to attract is,

40:49

yes, we already have like the best and brightest

40:52

coming here in terms of a lot of

40:54

bitcoiners moving here, individuals

40:56

and entrepreneurs and companies setting up

40:59

headquarters here. And that's a sort of adoption

41:01

we want to see.

41:03

You know, there is a pretty easy path

41:05

to certainly residency

41:08

here. It doesn't cost much

41:10

and it's pretty easy. You could just move here. You

41:12

don't need you know, it's not difficult like say

41:14

moving to Canada or the United

41:17

Kingdom. It's super easy and pretty

41:19

cheap. Now with our Freedom passport,

41:21

which is a million dollars, it's one million

41:24

dollars. It's a very very fast path to

41:26

passport. Most people should

41:29

qualify within six weeks. They get

41:31

a new passport based

41:34

on our KYC, criminal background check,

41:36

all this stuff you have to do. But it's a million dollars. And

41:38

what there is a donation. It's a citizenship

41:41

by donation. It's not an investment.

41:43

There's no big, vast bureaucracy

41:45

around this. It's like you're donating

41:49

to what President bu Kelly is doing.

41:52

He's expanding the domain,

41:54

the public domain of economic

41:56

liberty.

41:57

That is his policy.

41:58

Bitcoin, by the way, falls under his larger

42:01

policy of economic liberty.

42:03

Economic liberty also encapsulates

42:05

what he's done with the security and you

42:08

know, securing life, liberty, and property for

42:11

the people. So you're you're basically

42:14

set.

42:14

You know.

42:15

It's attracting a lot of

42:18

very early bitcoiners, bitcoin whales,

42:21

billionaires who want

42:23

to be the one who

42:25

to make a change. They want to leave a legacy, right

42:28

like, because anybody could go buy a passport in Saint

42:30

KITT's and hang out with Roger vere for

42:32

two hundred and fifty three hundred thousand dollars.

42:35

But here you could be in

42:37

the history books as part

42:39

of like if Medici had invited you

42:41

to come have dinner with him and Da

42:44

Vinci and Machiavelli

42:47

and you know, all Bodicelli

42:49

and all the cool people hanging out, Michaelangelo

42:52

hanging out in Florence, like, you would

42:54

do it right, You would pay a million dollars to be at

42:56

that table and have a say in

42:59

building the few future that Florence did

43:01

achieve.

43:03

Yeah, so a million dollars

43:05

if you want to fast track it and donate

43:08

to the cause and sort of have that passport. Otherwise,

43:11

anybody could move down there, start a business

43:13

and just apply for I guess probably temporary

43:15

residency, then get a permanent residency and sort of

43:17

go down that path.

43:18

It's probably a five year path.

43:19

It's a five year path, and you can

43:21

go. There's two sort of entities

43:23

that could help you with onboarding to that

43:26

path of residency and business

43:28

formation and ultimately citizenship,

43:32

and that would be Accelerate

43:35

SV dot Io. So Accelerate

43:38

SV is the is the country symbol

43:40

for El Salvador dot Io

43:42

and the other is also Bitcoin the Association

43:45

of Bitcoin in Al Salvador, so also bitcoin

43:47

dot org and they're also on Twitter,

43:49

so you.

43:49

Could go to them. You know.

43:51

It's like, I don't know, don't quote

43:53

me on the numbers, but it's like less than one thousand dollars

43:55

to get legal help to help

43:57

you on board. But you could do it yourself if you can reach

44:00

Spanish and a lot of it is in English. If you go

44:02

to the migration website of

44:04

El Salvador and you could figure your way

44:06

out there, it might be less than one hundred dollars

44:08

to apply for a residency visa.

44:13

What are some of the like long term

44:15

risks here? And I

44:17

think, if I'm not mistaken, you had told

44:19

me that Buqueley sort of like stepped down, so

44:22

he's rerunning for election potentially.

44:26

You know a lot of people had accused

44:28

him of being a dictator because of the way that he had to sort

44:30

of reform the court system that you know, the

44:32

two political parties.

44:33

To your point, I don't know.

44:35

If he stepped down, he's rerunning correct me if I'm wrong,

44:37

but maybe to sort of prove that, like, hey, I didn't

44:39

just take this over. You can reelect me if you want do

44:42

these run on like four year cycles like the

44:44

US, and like what happens if there's a color

44:47

revolution doesn't get re elected in four years

44:49

from now, Like what does that

44:51

look like?

44:52

It's five year terms here, And he's

44:54

following the constitution. The Supreme Court

44:56

year said that if he

44:59

stepped down or like

45:01

he takes a leave of absence for six months

45:04

prior to the inauguration, which is June

45:06

first, then that qualifies

45:09

under the constitution, which was written during

45:11

the military dictatorship in the eighties

45:14

early eighties. So he's

45:17

doing that in terms of I don't think

45:19

that's going to be a color revolution. The US

45:22

has seen with their own two eyes

45:24

the remarkable achievements here. And the

45:27

US ambassador who was only appointed in

45:29

twenty twenty three, the US ambassador

45:31

to El Salvador, who is a he's a really

45:33

good guy. He's

45:35

a lifelong diplomat and so

45:38

he's less political for example,

45:40

like a lot of US ambassadors

45:43

are, you know, friends of the president. This

45:45

guy he's you know, a

45:48

smart, good guy, and he's honest.

45:50

And he said what he saw here, and what

45:52

he saw here was the people

45:55

living in freedom for the first time.

45:57

That he's ever seen, and he's been here many times

46:00

the past few decades. So he

46:02

believes in the United

46:04

States, believes that

46:06

that there's now peace and security here and

46:09

life is being protected and the people

46:12

are happy. And they said recently,

46:14

and including the somebody

46:17

from the State Department was here and

46:19

they said that let the people decide,

46:21

because you know, we believe in democracy,

46:24

so that if the people don't like it,

46:26

then on February fourth, they can say they

46:28

could let their voice be heard.

46:29

At the at the ballot box.

46:31

And the polls gallup shows

46:33

that basically about ninety three

46:36

percent plan on voting for him and his

46:38

party.

46:42

Let's talk about some predictions here,

46:44

Max, not

46:46

price predictions. If you wanted to, you could throw that out

46:48

there, but we have right now,

46:50

we're sort of sitting on the precipice of potentially

46:52

multiple ets getting approved potentially

46:56

here in weeks, although they're quickly

46:59

changing the registered to where they I guess

47:01

not physical now there's going to be cash settled, so

47:03

it sort of defeats the little purpose. But as

47:05

that's happening, you know, the evil Empire black

47:07

Rock wants to launch their etf et cetera. While

47:10

that's happening almost in Unison. We have Elizabeth

47:13

Warren passing this

47:17

horrible bill that would basically make

47:20

could could potentially make bitcoin end and cryptocurrency

47:23

illegal, potentially and potentially

47:25

the attack vector there is like this self

47:28

custody. Maybe I'm reading in this

47:30

too much, but like if they could take away the ability

47:32

of self custody, but you can own it.

47:33

Through blackrock, so to speak.

47:36

Do you think those two things are are

47:38

are coming together sort of in Unison for

47:40

a cause? And if so does

47:43

that I would imagine help what

47:45

else alvat Or is doing. I mean, if

47:47

I can't own it in the US, I mean maybe I'll own it on

47:49

paper, but then I can move down to de el Salvador and custody it myself.

47:52

At some point the answer.

47:53

Would be yes, but to give

47:55

for some more details there. So yeah,

47:58

the ATFS, it's interesting and in finance

48:00

for over forty years and to see the coordination

48:03

and the multiple launch of a product

48:06

simultaneously like this is highly

48:08

unusual. It's never seen it quite before,

48:10

so that I think there is an agenda going

48:13

on, and.

48:13

I think simultaneously are

48:15

saying like the laws and the ETF launched.

48:17

Together that multiple ETFs being

48:20

launched simultaneously from

48:24

fifteen different financial institutions

48:26

are all kind of an ETF in the works.

48:29

Usually it's you know, first mover advantage,

48:32

and somebody comes up with an ETF and they

48:34

kind of get the market and they are like the

48:36

GLD, for example, was launched

48:38

and I believe either HSBC

48:41

or JP Morgan or the custodian behind that, and

48:43

they launched it and they captured the blind share

48:45

of the market and they have that product.

48:48

And that's typically the way products are launched. But here

48:50

they're saying to Wall Street, we want you to coordinate

48:52

a product launch simultaneously

48:54

amongst all of you financial institutions.

48:57

So that looks like there's a highly politicized

49:01

looks like a highly politicized, uh kind

49:04

of coordination going on there. Simultaneously,

49:06

Liz Warren is saying what she's saying and

49:09

attacking bitcoin and so called

49:11

crypto. So to your point, that is

49:13

this set up a situation where the public

49:16

is only allowed to own ETFs which

49:18

are derivative of bitcoin and cash settled

49:20

similar to gold. You know, if gold

49:23

gets into GLD gets into trouble,

49:25

they have the ability to settle in cash they

49:27

don't have to send you gold, they can send you fee out

49:29

money to your exact

49:31

phrase. It defeats the purpose. So

49:34

an ETF bitcoin that's settled in

49:36

cash is almost pointed. Nevertheless,

49:40

it will bring in a lot of capital.

49:42

Simultaneously, they could say, well,

49:44

self custody of bitcoin, according

49:47

to Liz Warren, could be banned. So

49:49

now you have a situation where only the government

49:52

can own actual bitcoin and

49:54

but the public can only own a derivative.

49:57

Now would that help El Salvador of course,

49:59

because everybody who has

50:01

lost their bitcoin in a tragic voting accident

50:04

immediately be liked Al Salvador because

50:07

the leadership here would recognize this is a huge

50:10

opportunity. President mc

50:12

kelly is a fantastic

50:14

leader, and like all fantastic leaders, his

50:17

ideas are fantastic. Plus he capitalizes

50:20

on other people's mistakes, Like when other

50:22

countries make a mistake, he jumps

50:24

in and capitalizes on that mistake.

50:26

That's part of being a leader, I

50:28

think. And so if these other countries

50:31

want to make that mistake, Al Savador is

50:33

happy to be the beneficiary.

50:35

I also think. I also think

50:38

I also think that what

50:41

they're going to do is they

50:44

know for a fact they can't outlaw

50:46

bitcoin. They know that because they

50:48

know that is

50:51

genuinely decentralized and that there is

50:53

no CEO and there is nobody to

50:55

arrest so

50:59

and it's global, so it's more

51:01

difficult than to do like a gold

51:04

confiscation sort of scheme like

51:06

they did in the nineteen thirties. So

51:08

I think what they're going to do is

51:11

they present this whole like we're going to

51:13

ban everything and we're going to rest you all, and

51:15

then they'll say like, Okay, what we're really going

51:17

to ban is any coin

51:19

with a CEO or a marketing budget

51:22

and a marketing department. Those are

51:24

easy to criminalize,

51:26

right those because there is somebody to contact,

51:29

So they'll do those.

51:31

First, and.

51:35

They clearly however, Gary

51:37

Gensler has said it, all the chairmen

51:39

of the CFTC, all

51:41

the officials have. You know, they're pretty good

51:43

at like signaling to you with their words,

51:46

like if you actually listen to the stuff they say,

51:48

they've told you years ago that bitcoin

51:51

is a commodity everything else as to security.

51:54

So I think that's what they'll do. They're not going

51:56

to they're not going to ban it, like Liz

51:59

Warren is playing the crazy person, right.

52:01

This this is just good cop, bad cop. This is

52:03

just a negotiation tactic. And what

52:06

they're going to do is they're going to regulate

52:08

all well, they're going to do kind of what we

52:10

did here. Bitcoin is money and everything

52:12

else is security. Because if you

52:14

didn't say everything else is to security,

52:16

what the shitcoiners and scammers

52:19

said is like, well, you haven't liked defined

52:21

us, so we get to operate with impunity.

52:23

Well, no, like, it's against the law to

52:26

scam people, and here

52:28

here's your avenue to register.

52:31

As a security.

52:32

Tell everybody that they're going to lose all

52:34

their money, and like, you know the warning,

52:37

you know, the symbols on the back of

52:39

the cigarette package showing you're.

52:40

Going to die.

52:41

You're most likely going to die smoking the

52:44

same thing with you, like a shitcoin is like,

52:46

you're going to lose all your wealth, You're going to end up poor,

52:48

You're gonna end up like we're gonna put photos of homeless

52:51

bums on the street, you know, just passed

52:54

out sleeping under a stairwell, and that's

52:56

basically your future on the shitcoin. But

52:58

okay, you knew and nobody's because

53:01

in a hard money economy, there's nobody

53:03

there to bail you out from your dumb mistakes

53:05

like this ain't the US dollar is

53:08

sort of fiat money system here.

53:10

We don't have our own printed currency

53:12

to print and bail you out from your dumb mistakes.

53:16

Right. Yeah, My fear is, you see

53:18

things like the restrict Act they put into place, and

53:20

what Elizabeth Warren's doing is like any

53:22

interfacing with any piece of software technology

53:25

that they deem to be a threat to national security could

53:27

be illegal. And you know they're using

53:30

words like, oh, it's a threat to her financial stability,

53:32

So is that a threat to ours security?

53:33

Hopefully we're along way.

53:34

The Supreme Court won't allow her.

53:36

They've already done this dozands of times,

53:38

and every new tyrant in the

53:40

Senate thinks they could like argue

53:43

differently, But the Supreme Court has always

53:46

backed free speech, They've always backed

53:48

code.

53:48

They've always done that.

53:49

Like, so I don't think I

53:51

don't think there's any chance in hell

53:54

of her getting what she wants. Maybe

53:56

just might she might be able to pass it,

53:58

but the Supreme Court's a rule against her.

54:01

Yeah, I remember, bitcoin separates money from

54:03

state and that's

54:06

that's as actor. That's true, is saying

54:08

that gold is element number seventy nine on

54:10

the periodic table. That's it's a statement of fact.

54:13

And now the state is trying to

54:16

trying to snatch it back, but

54:19

the vector that bitcoin is on it has achieved

54:21

escape velocity and no

54:23

state will be able to try

54:26

to bring it back in the fold. It's

54:28

gone. They messed

54:30

up. It's gone.

54:31

Yeah, Austin. Austin Goulsby was

54:33

right about that. He said we should have killed

54:35

it while we had the chance. You know, he being

54:38

under President Obama and

54:41

Satoshi himself like message said

54:43

as such. During like when wiki leaks

54:46

first got involved in bitcoin in twenty ten,

54:48

he was worried. He expressed

54:50

concern saying that we're like, we're too

54:52

young and we're too small to battle

54:55

the US.

54:55

We kicked the horn Yeah, yeah, kick.

54:57

The Hornets's that's what he said. And

55:00

so he was right.

55:01

But luckily, well,

55:03

the US had multiple warfronts

55:06

at that time, and it was too

55:08

small and they didn't think it was going to be a threat.

55:10

So they just thought it was Max

55:12

and Stacy and Kaiser report,

55:15

So they were wrong.

55:16

The thing about money Mark, as you always

55:19

bring up, is that it

55:21

is a code, a

55:23

coded way to promote

55:26

freedom. It's a it's

55:29

and so bitcoin is

55:31

perfect money, and therefore it satisfies

55:33

something in us as human beings. So

55:36

as long as humans still want to be human,

55:39

bitcoin will be on that vector going

55:41

away from the state, and the state always

55:43

ends up coalescing and becoming

55:46

powerful to the extent of stuffing

55:48

out freedoms. And this, therefore,

55:51

this battle against money

55:53

versus the state, has been

55:55

lost by the state.

55:57

They have lost. They are dead.

55:59

The only thing now is to bury them.

56:02

They're the walking dead.

56:05

Yeah. Yeah.

56:06

In Alex Sveetzky and I, in our book The Uncommunist

56:09

Manifesto, we sort of made the case that

56:11

capitalism is not a political modality. Capitalism

56:13

is just natural.

56:14

Emergent order.

56:15

We as humans have private property

56:17

and we use our intellectual ability and private

56:20

property to trade freely. And

56:22

that's just the way the world works, right, Kids are

56:24

trading sandwiches for chips or whatever.

56:26

I had a fire, you at an animal. We share that, right,

56:29

And so if that is natural and emergent,

56:32

then we need a way to trade, and so we need some

56:34

form of medium of exchange, and

56:37

that's.

56:37

Just human nature.

56:38

The government can't really co op that they could try

56:40

for a time, but to your boy, Max, like it's already failed.

56:42

It will fail, it will already fail. And

56:44

now we're just kind of.

56:45

And c And also we have a leader that does

56:48

the personification of this, who

56:50

recognizes this is a natural leader based

56:53

on natural values, ancient

56:55

values, and so you

56:57

married that with bitcoin and people

57:00

are paying a million dollars in donation to

57:02

be a part of it.

57:05

Yeah, well we've covered

57:07

a lot as someone, I

57:09

mean, Max, Max and Stacy, both of you guys have been pounding

57:12

the table on bitcoin longer than anybody. You guys

57:14

with a psychopath screaming at the top

57:16

of her lungs on the streets. But it just

57:18

continues to, you know, play out the

57:21

way that you see it. And a lot of it's because

57:23

it is that natural emergent process and

57:25

this is just sort of how the world works.

57:27

So anyway, I appreciate you guys sharing that.

57:29

I really appreciate you guys being down there and El Salvador

57:31

and banging the drum on that as well. I

57:34

love to see this pendulum swinging. I love

57:36

to see this competition being set up.

57:39

We're all rooting for it. To win. Did you have something

57:41

you want to add to Yes.

57:42

First, I want to mention because we haven't said

57:44

it the whole episode, is this, during

57:46

this whole interview, is we're talking like zoomers.

57:49

Now, by the way, we might be

57:51

he's a boomer, I'm almost I'm a gen X.

57:53

But we're talking like zoomers here

57:55

because this is the new way of them doing it. They

57:57

hold their labs on our hand.

57:58

Yeah, even Bloomberg. I've notice this on.

58:00

My Twitter stream or my sorry,

58:02

my ex stream that they're always holding

58:05

these But I just

58:07

want to say that, and also that if you're interested

58:10

in acquiring freedom, you

58:13

could apply for freedom here in El Salvador

58:15

for one million dollars. You,

58:17

your spouse, your dependent children

58:20

all get a passport within six

58:22

weeks if you go to adopting Al Salvador

58:25

dot goob dot

58:27

sv So just go there and

58:29

forward slash freedom if you want double

58:31

the freedom.

58:34

So we're going to make sure we link

58:36

that in the show notes down below. The one thing

58:38

I just want to add to that that Stacy's talking about, and if

58:40

you've been listening through this interview, we talk about this long term

58:42

perspective and so like you know, I

58:45

just keep reminding myself, like I

58:47

mean, I'm kind of old now too, and like I got

58:49

enough money, I could just like go disappear and ride out

58:51

the rest of my life on the beach. But I got

58:53

kids, and I got grandkids, and like we

58:55

need a legacy, Like I mean, this is bigger

58:57

than just us in our short lifetime that we have,

59:00

back.

59:00

To the medici's or whatever.

59:01

These leaders that build for future energy generations

59:04

and so be a part of it. Be a part

59:06

of something bigger than yourself and that lasts

59:08

much longer.

59:09

Hopefully I agree, do

59:11

it? Adopt El Salvador.

59:13

Adopt El Salvador. All right, we'll go ahead

59:15

and sign it off.

59:17

We'll put the link to that adopting bitcoin

59:19

the passport down in the link below,

59:21

and with that will signed off.

59:22

Thanks much, guys, Thanks