0:08

This is the me Eater podcast coming

0:11

at you shirtless, severely,

0:13

bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening

0:17

podcast. You can't predict anything.

0:23

I'm with Janice podcast

0:25

horror will tell us. Thank

0:29

you. Um. Randall

0:31

Williams, who has been on this, who's

0:33

down on the show before, an environmental historian.

0:36

Um, I'd like to accidentally call him

0:38

Randall Weaver, who is the Ruby

0:40

Ridge standoff person. But it's in fact Randall

0:43

Williams does that many Randall's everybody

0:45

switches to Randy endearing. Yeah,

0:47

I know one other Randall. He's

0:50

actually a neighbor. I got a friend named

0:52

Randy with an eye on the end, and I call her Randall.

0:54

I wish you don't like, I can't imagine.

0:59

And Matt Elliott here from who

1:01

drove up from World Bench made World

1:03

Headquarters down. And like

1:05

in Portland property, Oregon City,

1:08

Oregon City, there's an east and the west side thing

1:10

in in uh Portland. If you

1:12

live on the east side, you don't really consider

1:15

yourself in Portland unless you're actually East Portland.

1:17

But in eastern Oregon

1:20

they call everything pretty much West

1:22

of the Mountains Portland. Yeah, yeah,

1:24

yeah, So are you like in the redneck part

1:27

of Portland as a Yeah, that's the redneck

1:29

parts the industrial area. You guys still

1:31

drink like Sanka and Folgers and stuff.

1:33

And it's not like there's

1:36

still fifty five Starbucks within a

1:38

mouth from from bench made. Yeah.

1:41

Um, hey, how we're just talking about hunting

1:44

spots and stealing people's GPS

1:47

is in Uh and

1:49

yan, tell tell what happened? Now you're what

1:51

happened? Now you're on an airplane and which

1:55

you ran a new dude who used to live where you live. And

2:00

uh, I met him through I want to amy

2:02

names even get in trouble, but I met him through

2:04

another friend, a colleague of ours, and

2:06

uh, we're skiing together, and

2:09

uh it turns out that he was a fishing

2:11

guy and dabbled in the hunting guiding

2:13

a little bit and actually knew a friend of mine from Colorado

2:16

and now lives back

2:18

east. And I saw this kind of thing like,

2:20

well, maybe I could get probably a little bit of

2:22

information out of him, you know, So I just slipped in

2:24

like a yeah, I'm new here, and you

2:26

know, what do you know about hunting right here around

2:29

the ski area? And I mean that just opened

2:31

up the floodgates. Man, I couldn't. I should just have

2:33

my iPhone out on record. But because

2:35

he used to hit all that stuff and moved away to Chicago.

2:38

Yeah, so we're no, we're just saying,

2:40

how guys that don't you know you just don't protect

2:42

your hunting spots as much as as you

2:45

once did once you move away from an area, Dude

2:47

in the guide book. In the guide book,

2:49

I say, I've gotten a lot of hunting

2:52

spots by talking to people who used to

2:54

live somewhere that don't anymore because they don't care. And

2:58

now I'm in the situation where I

3:00

used to live. You know, I spent a lot of

3:02

time a decade ago somewhere

3:05

and I'll tell people now, I'll be like, oh, you know, I haven't been in

3:07

a decade, but go check it out. And

3:11

I I knew this dude who

3:13

was working on you know, on X

3:16

on X maps. They're

3:18

in Missoula. So I

3:21

know a guy who moved to Missoula to work there,

3:23

And I'm like, hey, man, you know what you ought to do is this

3:27

is place we used to find bears in the spring. I'm

3:29

like around

3:31

May eleven, like between the six

3:33

and the eleven drive up

3:35

to this trailhead and

3:37

you're gonna get out of your car and you're gonna think's ridiculous

3:39

because it's gonna be a ask load of snow. Never

3:42

mind the snow. Walk up two miles

3:45

and there's gonna be a southeast

3:48

exposure that's gonna have a

3:50

bald spot on the size of a couple of football

3:52

fields, and watch that for the day.

3:55

Because it used to work out. He

3:57

goes up there one day, comes

4:00

back, calls, he says, oh, it's too snowy. I'm like,

4:02

dude, just park,

4:05

go back, walk up. It doesn't

4:07

matter what it looks like with the snow. Never mind, the snow

4:09

goes up there, says there, black bear comes

4:12

out, misses it,

4:14

something like that. Spot still is good. So

4:17

old spots can be good, definitely.

4:20

Animals don't know how much time went by. I

4:24

think there's I think they're cyclical too, you

4:26

know, spots. I think they get

4:28

popular with guys, they start to get

4:30

hit hard. Animals maybe move out a little

4:32

bit, or you get a little nocturnal, and then all of sudd everybody's

4:35

like, there's a lot sucks, and then you roll

4:37

in, you know, to you it's like Nirvana

4:39

because he's rolling. There's nobody there. Yeah,

4:41

that happens even in the side of the season. You

4:44

know, it's like people going hit up a spot.

4:46

They might have drawn a limited entry tag and

4:48

people are hunting it. That happened us last year.

4:50

There was just a ton of pressure on this spot

4:52

and everybody bailed because the

4:55

elk was shut down. Because the human pressure definitely

4:57

affects, you know, how vocal the

4:59

elk are. My buddy felt like there was no elk

5:02

to be found. We'd drawn the tag sort on

5:04

his preference points. We said, all

5:06

right, well, you know, go home. I'll hunt the coast

5:08

instead, and we we bailed out

5:10

of there. And then a friend of mine told

5:12

me later who knew some guys from Roseberg

5:14

that I'd that I'd run into there and said, oh, you guys

5:17

are going back to the coast and I have fun shooting your little five

5:19

point We'll be here chasing these big bulls. And

5:21

and I talked to my buddy ties Stubblefield

5:23

actually, and he he told me, yeah, I

5:25

talked to him that. You know, they elk

5:27

lit up like two days later. For the last four

5:30

days of the season, everybody bailed out of there and the pressure

5:32

got lighter in the elk. Just yeah,

5:35

I got fired up again. Conversely, I

5:37

got a friend he's passed away now, but

5:39

he uh was up in the tobacco or roote

5:41

mountains and just you

5:44

know, stumbled onto herd helt on

5:46

the hillside. And that dude could never

5:48

get it out of his head. And like when he went

5:51

out hunting, his elk hunt was the goal and

5:53

be like nope, not

5:56

there, go back to this truck.

5:58

I mean for years he just had it was

6:00

like you check they're

6:02

either they're or not out there, and then you know later

6:05

I was sin I think that just one day someone bumps the

6:07

milk and they wand up on the hills. I'm

6:10

taking that approach before. We just can't you

6:12

can't shake it that you've seen an animal

6:14

there. Yeah, it was just

6:16

like it haunted him. Man, it was just he just like the

6:18

idea of him on that slope. Um.

6:23

The other day, I had to go down to Kansas

6:27

to do a I was

6:30

like given a talk to all the people

6:32

to teach hunter's ed in

6:34

Kansas. And

6:37

I get off the plane and spend about

6:39

an hour driving behind a dude who's got a thing.

6:41

Um, I'd rather be shooting Yankees, remember

6:43

that, which

6:46

is particularly offensive to me having lived in four

6:49

northern tier states. Um,

6:52

But I went to this thing like and and I'm getting

6:54

to talk to the

6:56

hunting need instructors. There's Separate hundred up

6:58

there, and this guy

7:00

asked me a question about what's my thoughts on eating

7:04

bullet lead right letting

7:07

meat? And

7:09

I go to and we get

7:12

talking about X rays that they're

7:14

kind of floating around online where they

7:16

they'll shoot an animal with a you know,

7:18

a jacket and lead bullet, and

7:20

then looking where all the lead

7:22

winds up in the carcass um

7:25

because it gets into little fragments, getting

7:27

the vascular system and wind up being far

7:30

removed from the wound channel and

7:36

it hits bone and breaks off and gets sent

7:38

off in various directions. And

7:40

he's actually are floating around you look like you look at something

7:42

that's been hitting the shoulder, and I mean there's

7:46

bits lead nine

7:48

ten inches out from there.

7:52

And when I started looking at

7:54

those pictures and a friend who's a big anti lead

7:56

advocate, Um, he's he's a biologist.

7:58

I'll give him some credit, but big

8:01

anti led guy he's the one that sent it to me, and he's

8:04

kind of like disbelief that people are eating his stuff.

8:07

Other people I know. This is all something

8:09

we conversed about other people I know, UM

8:13

say that that the way that is it's inert.

8:16

Your body doesn't dissolve that led down. He

8:18

just passed it out. A

8:20

guy commented how he'd

8:22

been eating the old guy. He's in his seventies.

8:25

He's been eating wild game his entire life, sauce.

8:27

I can't even imagine how many shotgun pellets I've

8:29

eaten. He went in and asked his doctor to test

8:31

his lad. He said, they don't even test lead. He

8:34

may like. He insisted that

8:36

someone tests has led and he

8:38

had, you know, like wherever

8:41

the I feel like he was telling me like high

8:44

lead is point to something

8:47

or whatever. And he didn't even have like detectable levels.

8:51

So he's like, if you're if you're gonna happen, it gonna happen to me.

8:53

We have this big conversation. So

8:55

after I give the talk, this old timer comes up

8:57

to me and uh establishes

9:00

his credentials in the field of lead by

9:02

explaining that he was a twenty five years like a munitions

9:04

guy in the military, and

9:07

uh, he

9:10

starts telling me that it's all this

9:12

whole thing about lead is bs about lead

9:14

ammo. Okay, did lead

9:17

ammo um

9:19

and shot pellets and stuff like that doesn't

9:22

affect wildlife. Um,

9:25

it's not soluble in that form, just passes

9:27

through your system. That it

9:30

was all the larkey when

9:33

the steel shot, you know, when the

9:35

lead the lead shot band for Federal

9:37

Migratory Waterfall went into play. And

9:40

he had a point to me. He says, how many times have you opened

9:42

up a gizzard in your life off a ducker

9:45

goose and found a pellet in it?

9:48

And I got thinking about it and it had never happened.

9:51

And he said, been hunting water found my whole life and never seen

9:53

a pellet in there. And he

9:55

pointed out that now you can't use lead. Let

9:59

me back up clarify that when what

10:02

year was it the lead band eighty I remember I was already

10:04

hunting when it went into effect. Um.

10:07

They they phased it out over the

10:10

final few years of the eighties, and I think ninety

10:12

one was the first year when nobody

10:14

could hunt migratory birds with

10:16

lead shot. Yeah, so they had ducks

10:20

and geese pick up um

10:23

grit for their crop, you

10:25

know, and uh, they pick up gravel

10:27

and it goes into crop and they don't have a

10:29

stomach or not like you think. So when they eat food,

10:34

what am I trying to send me? Back? Up? Pick up

10:36

grit for their gizzard

10:39

goes in their gizzard. So when a when a bird eats,

10:41

he his food going to his crop. Then from his crop, it

10:43

goes down to his gizzard and the gizzards just like this muscle

10:45

that squeezes, and it's full of rocks, and

10:48

uh, the rocks pulverized the

10:50

food. They build their digestive

10:52

system basically by eating

10:55

grind up whatever they eat, and then they grind up

10:57

materials eventually gets so ground

10:59

up that this passed through the bird. That's why

11:01

I see different times a day, you

11:04

know, I see grouse or doves or any

11:06

number of things feeding on the side of the road, just

11:08

pecking around. There's going to get gravel um

11:12

waterfowl, the argument

11:14

goes, and we'll get into the truth of this

11:16

or not waterfall picks up shot

11:18

lead shot as grit, and

11:21

then they would get lead poisoning

11:23

and it would cause the birds to get

11:25

lethargic and die. So

11:30

in the late eighties early nineties, for

11:34

because waterfalls managed on the federal level,

11:36

a federal ban on using

11:39

lead shot went

11:42

into effect. I remember that happened as a kid, and I remember

11:44

guys quit, remember like

11:46

guys quit hunting over

11:49

the lead issue. And and to clarify,

11:52

it really raised its head in the mid seventies,

11:55

like in and

11:59

with groups demanding an environmental impact statement

12:01

four UM the federal

12:04

Waterfowl regulations. And then in seventy

12:06

six they issued an environmental impact

12:08

statement that addressed this, and they began

12:10

to impose restrictions on certain areas

12:13

and lead shot, and that raised sort of the specter

12:15

of, you know, it was lead eventually

12:18

going to go away. And then in the late

12:21

UM, I think in eight five or

12:23

eighty six, there was an amended environmental

12:25

Impact statement that really addressed um,

12:28

sort of the secondary effects of lead. And

12:30

that was basically

12:33

there was a suit that claimed that the environmental

12:35

impact statement UH that addressed

12:38

the impact of lead on waterfowl didn't

12:41

address the impact of eagles

12:43

eating waterfoul

12:46

poisoned by lead and so sort of the secondary

12:49

effects of lead. And so that's what really

12:51

led to the eventual Okay,

12:54

leads eventually gonna go

12:56

away, and then they began to slowly phase

12:58

it out. They're led Zeppelin, right,

13:01

Yeah, so

13:06

by it was done, Yeah,

13:09

guys got pissed because lead

13:12

maintains its know, it's heavier, so it

13:14

maintains its velocity. And when people

13:17

got done with lead, every went to steal, which is

13:19

much lighter. Now there's all kinds

13:21

of other stuff that's really expensive, but people

13:24

are pissed because crippling loss. Most

13:27

people anecdotally felt that

13:29

crippling loss was much higher shooting

13:31

steal than the lead. Um.

13:34

It was a controversial move and people felt

13:36

that the science wasn't there. And

13:38

this guy was pointing out that not only was the science

13:40

there, but the birds aren't picking it up anyway. This

13:43

is just a dude on the street, okay

13:46

telling me this. So

13:48

after I had this conversation, I checked in with a couple

13:51

of biologist

13:53

friends who were um

13:57

who weren't of age at that

14:00

time. Right, So they work

14:02

on waterfowl want in particular,

14:04

my friend Brand works on waterfowl now.

14:07

But you know, he's young, he doesn't he wasn't

14:09

involved with that at the time, and

14:12

he just operates and and he

14:14

substantiates it, but he just operates under

14:16

the assumption that you

14:19

know, it was a good move. What do

14:21

you get. I mean, the

14:23

reason it's important now or the reason I'm

14:25

starting to wonder about it now, is because he has so

14:27

many issues now with guys being

14:30

worried about humans and justin lead

14:33

and gave me, did anybody

14:35

find a study on how much lead you

14:37

have to ingest for it to be damaging? So

14:40

I found studies on on birds,

14:42

you know, how how much lead a bird would have

14:44

an assystem before they really felt like it was impacting

14:47

the birds psycho psychological

14:49

state, and that they talked about

14:51

birds how they kind of go crazy if they have

14:53

too much lead. And I don't remember what the actually

14:55

was, Yeah, like point one

14:58

or something that it starts to impact, but it

15:01

has to be like point six for it to really be

15:03

fatal, you know, something something like Yeah,

15:05

I remember this guy was saying he had his lead check

15:07

that was that's why he had his led check to his point

15:10

too. Yeah, and um,

15:14

maybe like two, I can't remember what the hell he

15:16

was saying. It's point six where it really starts dangerous,

15:18

Like dangerous was at a certain level. Yeah,

15:22

I mean I looked into some

15:24

of this, especially with the

15:28

the recent events in Michigan, sort of the history

15:30

of of lead poisoning,

15:33

right, I mean, no, it's it's an often lead

15:35

it's already been like soluble.

15:37

Yeah, No, it's a different I mean it's a different case.

15:40

But just thing about, um, the effects

15:42

of lead on on the body. I guess

15:45

I did some background reading and it was sort of interesting

15:47

that, um,

15:50

you know, the the the knowledge

15:52

that lead is toxic to human beings

15:54

is very old, but it's only sort

15:56

of in the late twentieth century. That I mean,

15:58

the idea of acute lead poisoning, um

16:01

from like high levels of exposure. That

16:04

that's old knowledge. Um, but the

16:06

knowledge, but I guess the the recognition

16:09

that small exposure was

16:11

also dangerous is much more recent, like in

16:13

the late twentieth century. Especially to kids.

16:15

It's like subclinical levels of it. Yeah, they

16:18

test like my kids, They test my kids for lead

16:20

all the time. And when people get it, it it winds up

16:22

being they're getting it from eating paint and they're

16:24

eating dirt with this bend has a lot of lead

16:27

in it from from when gasoline was

16:29

leaded, right, soluble lead, you

16:32

know, I just want to know, and

16:34

I don't know because I've heard it from credible sources.

16:36

Either way, I just want to know if there's ever been a case

16:38

where fisherman,

16:41

Now, I spent my whole life a split shot in

16:44

my mouth, because that's where we store it.

16:46

Like you're all fishing, you

16:48

know, you're running three split shot and then you're

16:51

in another area we should only had one to go in

16:53

your mouth. Then you're in an area where you wish

16:55

you had to. You pull one out of your mouth, put it on, clamp

16:57

it with your teeth and your free line you got

16:59

off, you know, and you're setting them on

17:01

and off. It's like I grew up sucking

17:04

on I've eaten. I

17:06

don't know how many shotgun pellets, how

17:08

many lead fragments? Right?

17:11

Can anyone point to where a person got

17:13

lead poisoning from

17:18

any kind of hunting fishing related activities? Also,

17:22

how documented is it that when birds

17:24

and I'm not trying to be like, I'm not trying to be contrarying,

17:27

how documented is that the ducks and geese

17:29

that have high letter actually

17:31

getting the lead from

17:34

shot and not from industrial pollutants?

17:38

Do you know I think it has to find a different set of

17:40

experts to Uh, I'm

17:43

not. I'm not because as

17:45

far as I can tell, its almost seems like unanswerable.

17:47

How would you even how would you even

17:50

be able to observe them, you know, being

17:52

migratory, actually ingesting,

17:55

and how they were eating lead versus eating

17:57

This guy was telling me, Yeah, they got lead poisoning, they

17:59

got head poisoning from industrial

18:02

pollutants. Yeah, soluble

18:04

lead. You know, he's saying they're

18:07

not getting it from picking up your number six

18:09

shot. That's what he's claiming

18:11

to me. He said, you're passing that stuff. The turn

18:14

to steel isn't the only variable. They're like,

18:16

the unleaded

18:18

gas has certainly changed, you know, the switched

18:20

unleaded gas has certainly changed the amount of

18:22

lead, which

18:25

which contemporaneous. I

18:27

remember being in high school and dudes having to go

18:29

by like dudes. This dude I grew up with, Brian

18:31

Peterson. He had to go by lead

18:33

to put as their phasing now leading

18:35

gas stations. He had to go buy a lead additive

18:38

to run his old ass car. Huh.

18:41

So that that was his

18:43

claim And I'm not posing it like you're supposed to know the

18:45

answer. But the reason it's significant

18:47

is I've hundred in areas in California.

18:49

You can't use lead, right,

18:54

you can't use lead bullets the condor zone. And

18:57

it's because they are like those things

18:59

are getting lead poisoning from eating, carrying

19:02

from

19:06

and that is proven science. Well, it's

19:08

proven that they have. Here's your thing. This

19:10

guy was telling me, you can't detect

19:12

when you can tell something has been poisoned, you can tell it's

19:14

been poisoned by heavy metals. You

19:16

can't necessarily he was saying, you can't

19:19

necessarily tell that

19:21

it's lead has heavy metal poisoning.

19:23

He blames it on industrial

19:26

discharge and things like leaded

19:28

gasoline, industrial discharge and

19:31

all these other causes. And

19:33

he's saying, rather than address these causes,

19:35

people have put their focus that it somehow has

19:37

to do with lead ammunition. When

19:43

tuna, right, and other

19:45

things have some of these those things have

19:47

high heavy metals

19:49

or mercury, because are they

19:51

eating shot? Is someone shooting

19:54

tunas with?

19:56

Let you know? It's I don't understand.

19:58

So I did read about a ban on lead sinkers

20:01

in Great Britain. Is

20:03

ridiculous to me, and uh, but but

20:05

I guess, and and this is just

20:08

from reading the literature and no

20:10

real you know, detail knowledge of it, but I guess there

20:12

was a documented um

20:14

boom in in this particular Swan population

20:17

that was effected that led to this band. It was

20:19

yeah, it was like sure, yeah, like these these

20:21

particulars, don't they know how to put the split shot on

20:25

this particular It sounds like they need

20:27

to have like a like a

20:30

public service annalysment about crimping it on

20:32

better. I don't know, um

20:35

they but

20:38

they they they when they switched. When they switched,

20:40

it was like the number of these Swans bumped

20:43

up by like thirty eight percent or something. That was

20:45

the statistic that I read. And and yeah,

20:47

again it was just sort of some background reading. But

20:49

yeah, but I mean, you know, you know, you could read that

20:51

a thousand ways. Yeah. I like, I

20:54

hate listening to myself right now because I sound

20:56

like the incredulous old geezer

20:58

who hates change and like

21:01

acts like expertise, is sup. I sound

21:03

like like Donald Trump, right, like

21:05

experts. I don't need experts tell me what I

21:07

know. You know, I know the sun rises. So

21:10

there's a difference between not believing

21:12

everything you read and and not believing

21:15

things that that you

21:17

don't agree with. Yeah, I told

21:20

Yanni a quote one time. Tell the quote I

21:22

told you, or did you forget? I forgot.

21:25

Skepticism is

21:27

the chastity of the intellect.

21:31

I can't remember who said it. It's good

21:34

though, it's yeah, So I'm

21:36

trying. I've always carried

21:39

around an assumption. For a while, I switched

21:41

and stop shooting lead bullets, started

21:43

shooting monolithic bullets, pure copper.

21:47

People are going in that direction anyway. But

21:49

for a while I was like, oh, I'll shoot these. It's

21:51

a little different. You gotta you know, you generally kind of hold

21:54

a little bit different and makes everything different. I

21:56

always like bonded bullets, and I'm kind of shooting

21:58

him again. There Day I got a email

22:02

from a friend of mine who's a um

22:06

a biologist, highly educated

22:10

in the natural sciences, very

22:13

avid hunter, and sent

22:15

me a thing about uh

22:19

Oregonians use of lead,

22:21

sort of survey about people's relationships

22:24

with lead ammunition. He was very

22:26

upset. I'm been hunting with this guy to spring. UM.

22:30

I'm trying to think. I gotta check my amy because I don't

22:32

want to show up with lead ami because but

22:34

I'm hunt with him a spring, but just distraught.

22:37

These like that, our fellow casadors, for

22:39

you non Spanish speaking folks that Spanish for

22:41

hunter are littering the landscape

22:44

and littering their food with

22:47

this stuff. And I just don't

22:49

know if it's like true or not. Yeah,

22:53

I mean, I don't know what

22:55

what sort of an effect it has. But when

22:57

you think about the numbers of um,

23:01

you know, lad the

23:03

you know, prior to the steel shot, you

23:06

think about the number of the amount of lead

23:08

that was pumped over like

23:10

pothole lakes and things like that, I mean thousands

23:13

of tons. Mosquegon's day game

23:15

area right grew up, you'd go out on an open

23:18

day and shoot a cull box and shells. I mean it's

23:20

like raining shot. Yeah, and just

23:22

what landed in my hat? We've

23:24

been enough to kill somebody. And each bang is

23:27

is announcing announcing a night. You

23:29

know, Uh, there's a whole, there's

23:31

a whole another component of this

23:33

issue that's sort of coming light. I was reading a

23:35

research article about the impacts

23:38

gun clubs and and studies that

23:40

they've done on gun clubs. Because environmentalists

23:42

are now coming after gun clubs, you know,

23:44

over putting lead into the ground, and this guy

23:47

right right, well, so this so this, so

23:50

this study Actually, you know, I

23:52

think there's things that seem like they're more legitimate

23:54

and grounded in science and the arguments environmentalists

23:56

make, and then there's other things that are just irrational

23:59

and emotional base because they're just really

24:01

going after whatever issue because of some polarization

24:04

of their politics or whatever it might be. But

24:06

this particular study, they were looking at the

24:08

impacts around the gun club and

24:11

they found at least as far as the water

24:13

goes, that that lead

24:15

doesn't go very far. That type of lead, it can't go

24:17

very far. So they found that it did impact

24:19

the top two inches of soil, but

24:22

nothing nothing else. But so

24:25

this study, I rn was too so. And

24:28

and again I think one of the difficulties I have and

24:30

really forming an opinion about this, other than talking

24:32

to biologists like you've had the opportunity to do,

24:35

is it's hard looking around at the internet

24:37

and hearing these to really discern. And that's

24:39

something that sounds like the the military

24:42

person you talked to was getting

24:44

out a little bit. Also, it's like it's hard to discern how

24:46

much of this is somebody's like opinion

24:49

or an emotional opinion, and how

24:51

much of it is actually grounded in science. And even

24:53

when you look at scientific articles,

24:55

it's still they still sort of seem to have oftentimes

24:58

a bit of an angle. So I guess about

25:02

But I think that here's

25:05

kind of where I'm going. Where

25:08

I'm going on it is. I

25:10

don't think we're done making mistakes. We

25:12

all laugh now, Like I'll tell the story

25:14

recently that my dad had uh

25:17

got shot in the foot with a shotgun, and

25:20

he would go to shoe stores to show people the pellets

25:22

in his foot, and they would X ray your

25:25

foot in the shoe store, see if your shoe fit right. Okay,

25:28

So everybody's standing around a shoe store all

25:30

day long, no protection, X

25:32

raying people's feet the

25:35

shoe salesman guy. Right,

25:38

We now realize that

25:40

that's not a good idea to be exposed

25:42

to that level. Okay, So we're

25:46

not done making these mistakes. We laugh now, like

25:48

the way they used to. My dad said when he was again

25:50

my old man was when he was in the army, they put cigarettes

25:53

in your rations when he was stationed.

25:55

When he was in World War two. I think he said

25:58

that three cigarettes and you see you rashing

26:00

each meal, so we now

26:02

laugh like ha ha. Can you believe that they didn't

26:05

know? We're not done making mistakes

26:08

right I'm in full agreement. We're

26:11

making them right now, and our kids

26:13

will be like, can you believe those sons of it is

26:15

used to X? And

26:17

it's us right now at this table. So

26:21

in some way, I'm like, Okay, if there is

26:23

all the hysteria

26:26

and some people are

26:28

sitting around and saying like, yeah, but you can't totally

26:31

don't really know. You can't totally

26:33

prove you don't really know. At what

26:35

point are you being like Big Tobacco, who

26:38

probably is still arguing that cigarettes are fine, you

26:41

know, for the NFL, and that concussions don't matter.

26:44

It's like, at some point, um

26:48

the tide turns, and

26:51

you know, I want it. I don't want to like stop

26:56

doing something because it just works so good and

26:58

then be down the road like the I who is the lated

27:00

doctor. But the other hand, I don't want to be like I don't want

27:02

to be misled led

27:07

misled. I suppose in the

27:09

end, you just have to be open to reality

27:12

when it comes to you. Yeah,

27:14

right, Yeah, I think

27:16

this is one of those issues too that

27:19

um,

27:23

you know, there's a tendency

27:25

I think too if you don't necessarily

27:27

agree with something, or you're on the other side

27:29

of the issue, you begin to um

27:33

misrepresent the intentions

27:36

of the other side, right, And I

27:38

think an example, well,

27:42

I guess, like, um, in

27:44

a recent podcast, you had a

27:46

letter from a listener who's talking about

27:49

the reintroduction of wolves as a um

27:52

a ploy, right, or

27:57

that the

28:00

intance pushed

28:02

for the wolf reintroduction as

28:04

a way to disarm America because

28:08

the wolves would eat all

28:11

of the game and everyone would

28:13

be like, well, fucket and sell their guns. Yeah,

28:16

I mean here's someone else. I mean, or

28:18

I guess in his mind that they would destroy

28:21

him in a way like not they could, they sold

28:23

me, they'd still be in existence. But it was just a way

28:25

to get to disarm America. And

28:27

I'm like, you know, the

28:30

wolf reintroduction was controversial. That seems

28:32

like a very roundabout way disarming.

28:35

And I mean that

28:38

that guy, that guy's you know, he's he's

28:40

allowed, he's fully entitled to his

28:44

credit. I gotta give credit. He was saying that

28:47

his buddy buddy, buddy thinks

28:49

that, and he was wanting to find

28:51

a way to articulate to his buddy why that's

28:53

probably not true. Yeah, no, we won't. So yeah,

28:56

we won't. We won't pay him into that box. But um,

28:59

you know that that guy is fully

29:02

entitled to his to his belief that wolf

29:04

Ree introduction was a bad idea. But it doesn't change

29:06

the fact that there were decades of um

29:09

biological studies and scientific studies

29:11

that led up to that decision. And there's a documented

29:13

history of of what the um

29:15

So you know, if the Clintons were to go back in time

29:18

and and uh and

29:20

and create this ploy,

29:22

I mean, and and the other

29:24

thing too, I guess is that, um,

29:27

the initial intention behind certain policies

29:30

can be subverted by other groups or can

29:32

be used to further other

29:34

agendas. That doesn't necessarily

29:36

mean that that policy was

29:38

bad from the get go, right, or

29:41

that it was all part of one conspiracy.

29:44

So um, yeah, that person

29:47

could say, um, I don't

29:49

agree with wolf reintroduction, and

29:53

I don't think Hillary Clinton has gun friendly right,

29:56

but he's like, and he's like, but

29:58

I go to tie those two things to Yeah,

30:02

yeah, So I mean it's

30:04

one of those. I think. I think the lead issue

30:08

is UM is

30:10

one that that's sort of ah

30:13

lends itself to that sort of a a polarization,

30:17

right because as you say,

30:20

UM, there are groups

30:22

out there trying to shut down shooting ranges because

30:24

of this threat UM and

30:26

and obviously it's there's some debate as

30:29

to how much of a threat it poses to human health,

30:31

but they're trying to shut down shooting ranges, and so

30:33

that is construed then as an attack on

30:36

larger issues. UM.

30:38

But I think there

30:41

are certain things that we have to agree

30:43

on, and one is that lead can

30:47

be toxic and it's

30:49

not good for you, and

30:51

uh so, yeah, I don't know. I

30:53

think I think at some point you have to come to an agreement

30:55

on the fundamentals of a particular

30:58

issue before you begin. Is

31:00

I have an enormous cash

31:03

Like if I was ever get in trouble, they raided in my house,

31:05

they'd be like huge cashing animal. I'm like, well,

31:07

you know it looks like that,

31:10

but let's let's

31:12

just say he had always practice

31:15

with your lead animals. What

31:17

are you gonna do? You still out

31:19

there? It's really unfortunate in

31:22

issues almost any issue that people

31:24

are passionate about that. The polar opposites

31:27

caused people in the middle to feel

31:29

like there's no truth. You know,

31:31

It's like, that's what you're talking about. It's like, you

31:33

know, people trying to shut down shooting ranges, and so then

31:35

people are like, oh, people are trying to shut down shooting ranges.

31:38

Then you know, there's no way that bullets are killing

31:40

condors, led bullets are killing condors. Like

31:42

even though there's science, people just sort of throw

31:44

it all out the window because they feel

31:46

like, right exactly,

31:49

I'll point out that the gentleman who I spoke

31:51

with, uh

31:54

what alerted me to buyas is

31:57

he used the term eco fascists.

32:01

So then I'm like, okay, that's

32:05

that. That ruins the rhetoric,

32:08

right. It's like when when someone says me

32:10

like they're talking about like some aspect

32:12

of of liberals they don't like, and they go, yeah,

32:15

the libtards, it just shuts me

32:17

down. I'm like, you know what, I'd probably like, honestly,

32:19

I probably would want up agreeing with you on whatever

32:21

it is you're talking about. But the fact that he just

32:24

used that term makes it very difficult for

32:26

me to carry on this conversation because I

32:28

would hate for another version

32:30

of you to typify my perspectives

32:33

as right wing

32:35

fanatic. You know, It's

32:37

like I just I can't stand it coming

32:39

from either direction. Yeah, I can't stand

32:42

that kind of Yeah, like the eco

32:44

fascists. I'm like, hey, it

32:47

might not be it might be a dude who

32:49

knows a lot about heavy metals, and it's

32:51

I mean, that's who it is. I mean, and that's who it

32:53

is, right, It's there. They're scientists out

32:56

there who have spent their entire professional lives

32:58

studying these issues and

33:01

trying to arrive at some conclusion.

33:03

I mean, they're there, uh,

33:06

ostensibly performing a public service, right,

33:08

and so to to sort of paint them

33:10

into this corner and say they're they

33:13

have this agenda and they're attempting to

33:16

wipe out hunting as we

33:18

know it, it's just not a very

33:20

One of the things that you run into that also

33:23

though, is unfortunately the biologists in the

33:25

end are ultimately the ones making the laws,

33:28

right, So there are people that

33:30

may or may not know as much about those

33:33

issues that don't spend their whole life it's

33:35

just investing everything and whatever that issue

33:37

is. Then you've got some Natural Resources committee

33:39

that spends thirty minutes on something that says,

33:41

you know, you know whatever, done pound to

33:43

gather and

33:46

that's it. And they vote along party lines anyways

33:48

in some in some respect right now,

33:51

like both my brothers are a

33:53

cologists. Okay, they like

33:55

did biology and went into a cology specifically,

33:58

you know, and they operate

34:00

under like what seems to be like a scientific

34:03

version of the hippocratic oath. I don't

34:05

know the hypocratic goals, Like doctors take it right and

34:07

they like pledged to do no harm, to

34:09

do no harm

34:11

when they're research yourself, and they

34:13

research a lot of things, um. Each of the one

34:16

deals with aquatic invertebrates

34:18

and fish more and one deals with plant ecosystems

34:20

more um. But they'll be telling

34:22

you about something they're looking into cause and effect,

34:25

causal relationships. Whatever it could

34:27

be with environmental plutants, could be with one of

34:29

my brothers right now is working on why

34:33

answers to why it's hard to get sage

34:35

brush and other plants too.

34:39

Come back after when you're doing coal mine remediation,

34:42

so you do a coal a surface

34:44

coal mine, and then if you're

34:46

obligated then to bring the land back to

34:48

some usable form. They find that it's

34:50

very difficult to re establish plant

34:53

communities, certain plant communities, more difficult

34:55

than if the coal mine would or wouldn't have been there. That's

34:57

what they like to get it back to the way you left it,

34:59

right. What if there wasn't What if there wasn't a coal mine

35:01

and they just went and it was just some other parcel of land

35:04

that they did something with and now they have to, you

35:06

know, bring that back. I don't know he's

35:08

probably able to answer that, but that's what he's working because

35:11

when they do a coal mine, they you're you're

35:13

bonding it, right, So you're putting down a chunk

35:16

of money that's held by

35:19

a governing agency and

35:21

it gets given back to you once your

35:23

remediation is done. So

35:26

you've done the mind you bring top soil back

35:28

in re established playing community, and it's

35:30

supposed to be you know, as

35:32

good or better. And the

35:34

regulations used to be less strict. Let's they used

35:36

to be able to do grass. Okay,

35:38

it was easy to do that. Um

35:41

Now in certain areas are like you

35:43

know, sage brush is something

35:45

we're losing, Like we're losing acreage

35:48

of sage brush at an alarming rate. Um.

35:50

Now, when people do coal mine

35:53

remediation where you've tore

35:55

up a community of a shrub community

35:57

that contains like sage brush, your other things, rab

36:00

buck brush, and part

36:03

of your task is like, Okay, after

36:05

the mining is done, it's gonna go back

36:07

to a stage brush community.

36:10

Very difficult to get that to happen. Okay,

36:12

So he works on that. Another

36:15

builder of mind works on a lot of issues

36:17

haven do with a Nadramus

36:19

fish, so water quality things,

36:21

climate change issues, and they'll be working

36:23

on something. I'm like, well, what do you hope happens?

36:26

Like, what do you hope you find out? They

36:28

don't think of it that way. The guy that's

36:30

not my job is going to have a hope about what happens,

36:33

or I don't hope that it's caused by this, or

36:35

hope that's caused by that. My job is just to try

36:38

to answer, like what is the issue? Right? Completely

36:40

ruined the scientists. Yeah, It's like I

36:42

think there are a lot of people out there working

36:44

on things who aren't like I know how to get

36:46

them hunters.

36:50

Yeah, but they don't. They're like I'm

36:53

trying to in the best way possible

36:55

deliver you factual information

36:58

that policymakers can then you is to

37:01

twist and turn however they want to get their

37:03

policy. I don't think

37:05

that's their whole. Their

37:07

hope is that I I can tell you this. Yeah,

37:09

my brother dated a bunch of my He did a bunch

37:11

of work out at Bristol Bay, stuff

37:14

having to do with pebble mind. No

37:16

one asked him like, hey, dude, what do you think about pebble mind?

37:18

Do you like it or not? He he wouldn't even

37:20

go near that topic. Yeah, but the persons

37:24

what lives in what lives in this river? I

37:26

can tell you what lives in that river. I'm

37:28

not gonna tell you what I think about pebble minya about damn? Sure

37:30

tell you that this, this, and this and this is in that river.

37:34

Do these things, you

37:36

know, how do they respond to certain impacts.

37:38

I'll try to spell that out and tell it to you, But I'm not gonna

37:40

tell you what I think about the mind. It's

37:43

not my job. My job is to give you

37:45

information and hope that it gets, you

37:49

know, use it a sensible way. Yeah,

37:53

and I think, um,

37:55

you know, recognizing that it's not to

37:57

say that, Um, people don't

37:59

bring their own. But I mean science

38:01

certainly is shaped by a certain by Like it's a

38:03

certain type of person that's gonna follow that path

38:06

and become a biologist, so they probably

38:08

do. You know. It's it's it's less

38:10

likely that someone who hates the natural

38:12

world is going to become an ecologist, right, And

38:14

so there are certain there are certain

38:17

larger biases, but

38:20

um, to recognize those maybe

38:22

biases or the predisposition

38:25

of of you know, people like your brother,

38:27

Um isn't to just throw

38:30

it all out the window, right, I mean

38:32

there's a middle ground, and I think that's um.

38:36

Yeah, it's too too often

38:38

people say either the science is purely objective

38:41

or it's purely biased, and I think,

38:43

like you can recognize that it's

38:45

it's more complicated than that. Yeah, I would

38:47

think that, Like you said, like they

38:49

both got into what they do because they like they grew up

38:51

hunting fishing, and it introduced them to

38:53

the natural world. But they always have that perspective

38:56

and they still hunting fish. You know, you

38:58

could have they could be sitting next to

39:00

someone at a desk who grew up because

39:02

their parents like to hang out at national parks

39:05

and we're big Sierra Club folks, and they

39:07

might have a purely antagonistic

39:10

feeling towards hunting

39:12

and fishing right that they're like they

39:15

believe in like passive involvement

39:17

with the natural world, like we're not out there as players

39:19

on it um. Fundamentally,

39:22

they're gonna look at stuff different differently.

39:25

Doesn't mean when you put your if your biologists,

39:27

when you put your biologists had on that

39:29

you don't have to set those things aside and focus

39:32

on what's factual. But it's probably

39:34

very difficult to that. I'm sure it is. It is,

39:36

but I think right along with that, oh if most of the

39:38

scientists you know, my wife

39:40

included, like they're they're always

39:43

open to being

39:45

proven wrong, like it's

39:47

okay you know, for their research

39:49

and stuff that to be done. And even though you said

39:51

those things, yeah, these things are like

39:53

you said with the river, like yes, this stuff in this river

39:56

is doing this, this and this and this. If

39:58

someone else redid the research and put

40:00

it in a different way, and you know, had a different control

40:02

group and disproved it, your brother would

40:04

be like, oh, yes, you

40:06

opened my mind and let's move forward,

40:09

you know. So that's why

40:11

that's why I has to be given there to

40:13

that, the fact that they're open to that change.

40:18

You know, human knowledge is an ongoing

40:20

process. That's what my old man would get so

40:22

frustrated with ideas

40:25

of human evolution

40:27

or the African diaspora because

40:29

people be like, oh, you know, they found a

40:32

new thing to sort of rewrite. See. See,

40:34

that's why none of this matters

40:36

because they used to say this. They say that.

40:38

I'm like, yes, no one ever said,

40:41

no one ever wrote down the definitive

40:43

answer that will last all time.

40:45

Right, It's just you just adding bits

40:48

of knowledge as you go along, and it's

40:50

a dynamic changing picture. In

40:53

my own lifetime, like I just have a personal curiosity

40:55

about the peopling of the New World. Right, So,

40:58

who were the first people to show up in New

41:00

World in North America? When do they get here?

41:02

How they get here? Right? My

41:05

understanding of that in my own lifetime has

41:07

changed dramatically. Still kind of

41:09

the basic story.

41:12

But I never fell in love with one

41:14

explanation. I just kind of follow what

41:16

people are thinking. Rather than feeling frustrated

41:18

by the fact that it changes all the time. It

41:21

just like makes it feel like an engaging process.

41:24

Yeah, you know, but some people do

41:26

really fall in love with a

41:29

version, and they're antagonistic

41:32

toward a new version, which could

41:34

be my body the lead guy. Yeah,

41:37

Well, all of a sudden, you know, read up on this subject.

41:39

It just really doesn't seem like there's a lot out there.

41:42

So I think that's kind of nice. This the Oregon

41:45

stuff that that you

41:48

are biologist friends share with us. At at least

41:50

that's current, you know, that's in. They're

41:53

doing some work on that, you know, so

41:55

hopefully we'll know more soon. I'm

41:58

gonna I'm shooting non toxic water. Following

42:00

the meantime, I'm shooting uh toxic

42:04

no jacket

42:06

bullets. Man shoot

42:08

jacket his bullets. Do you guys make any lead

42:11

knives that bench, No, we don't.

42:13

We don't make any. I can't say that we don't

42:15

that there's not leading in our products.

42:17

I I don't know, you know, I can

42:19

speak to that we don't have We

42:22

don't make toxic We don't intentionally make

42:24

toxic lead knives. No,

42:26

you know what you were telling me, this changed subject

42:29

a little bit. I was asking why

42:32

Bench may never make why you guys don't do

42:34

file at knives? Explain

42:37

that so like, what's

42:39

up with the knife? So we we

42:41

have looked at it, and we actually used to have this line

42:43

called Red Class that everybody hated because it was an

42:45

import line and they're like, what the you know after

42:47

you guys doing this, Like, you guys are American,

42:50

an American made knife company, and that's

42:52

what makes you great. Right, So we we started

42:54

did away with that, but those file At knives were always they're

42:56

kind of coveted people like, oh yeah, Nail's old

42:58

Red Class file At Knives laying around And we

43:01

were able to make file At knives then because

43:03

they were forty five dollars and there

43:05

seems to be I mean, when we

43:08

make products the way bench Baid makes

43:10

products, we make products and we shoot

43:12

for like maximum performance. Right, So

43:14

so we're using laser cutters to cut steels

43:17

because we're using steels are too hard to

43:19

stamp and and everything that we're shooting for is

43:21

all to maximize value, like at

43:23

a high level to the end users. So

43:25

then we try to figure out how to manufacture it. And

43:27

because we look at things from a from a value

43:29

and a performance standpoint, and then figure out

43:32

the manufacturing the costco way

43:34

up and with filet knives. They seem to be

43:37

more of a disposable item,

43:39

you know, they're like people don't want to pay

43:41

generally more than seven

43:44

is a lot. I don't well, I was.

43:47

I spent a few years in Bristol Bay as a fishing

43:49

guide and we had lots of filet knives on the

43:51

flight table, and you know, you're cutting fish

43:53

and then you just rip them through, not

43:55

even like with reckless abandoned, pretty much just rip

43:57

them through a sharpener. And then you get back to file at issh

44:00

and you're you know, there's guts and parts

44:02

flying everywhere, and and it's just not

44:04

a fleet knife. Isn't something that has

44:07

this like you have an affinity for. It's

44:10

just like this, Yeah,

44:12

you feel the same way most people do. And so we

44:14

have to also be conscientious. So like this is

44:16

the reason we make them, is for maximum performance,

44:18

and if people don't want that, they're

44:21

not willing to pay that price for it, then

44:23

there's no reason for us to make it because if we do,

44:25

it's just gonna flop. So no

44:27

one's gonna buy a two knife. I'm not

44:29

saying nobody's gonna buy a two but there are

44:31

a lot more people that would buy other knives that we could

44:33

make that like some of our other hunting

44:35

products that they would be interested in. Uh.

44:38

And so we have we also have you know, like you know, limited

44:40

capacity in our factory, so we have to focus on

44:43

the things that we know people are going to

44:45

really widely adopt or accept. Not

44:47

that we don't make specialized products. But as

44:50

a kid and still today, um,

44:54

you know, as a kid, I played thousands

44:58

I mean I'm not exactly mean literally thousands

45:00

of perch and blue gills with those

45:03

rappola yeah, with a

45:05

little soft pine handle

45:08

with like some kind of lacquer on it. Yeah.

45:10

I still only one five volume rapaula

45:13

like Filet knives, one of the biggest

45:15

selling knife still to this day. Period

45:18

knives. Yeah there, they were next enough, and we'd

45:20

buy the one that had like a little short, like a

45:22

six inch blade on it, and it was just like

45:24

the go to perch knife.

45:27

I later, when I got married, someone gave me

45:29

a woost Off I

45:31

think flay knife, which I didn't like because

45:34

it's too whippy. You like

45:36

a little more backbone. And yeah, I've generally

45:38

flat fish with a eight

45:40

inch boning knife. You're

45:43

like those victor knocks. It's

45:46

almost like a like scoops and it's almost

45:49

like a disposable kind of knife, you know. Yeah,

45:51

yeah, but yeah, flayfish at those but

45:54

I don't know why. Yeah, But then with hunting knives it is

45:56

true. Like with hunting knives, I'm real particular. But

45:59

with flame eyes, I don't know, but I always thought maybe because

46:01

there's no one made a souped up flame knife. Well,

46:04

all, so you're leaving like your flay knife

46:06

out on the cleaning table and you know,

46:08

hosing it off and this and that. I feel like it's

46:10

a way more utilitarian, you

46:12

know, when you're done cleaning, fish, spray

46:14

off the table, push all the knives to the side.

46:18

People sharpener walk away. Yeah, you don't fetishize

46:20

like you don't fetishize flame knife. No

46:23

one ever gives you flynn ie and be like see that that was my

46:25

grandpa's flat knife, but

46:27

like that was my grandpa's hunting knife, like

46:29

damn. And there's there's

46:31

knife companies that are good at doing that,

46:34

right, I mean you have to be you have to understand like what are

46:36

we good at? You know, like like Dexter

46:38

Russell they make the white handled ones dexter

46:42

Russell's kind of what I figured so so, but

46:44

those those are like combined, right, what

46:46

do you mean combined? Like isn't dexter is

46:49

dexter Russell and Force? Are

46:51

they the same company to make

46:53

the food services? I don't, I don't know. I

46:55

don't have an answer that they make a very similar problems.

46:57

Do you make similar products? But the enforceners are black

46:59

hand. All the dexter Russells are white handed. And

47:04

food service and guides and

47:06

guides talk about, oh my boat knife.

47:08

You know, most most guys in their boat, they'll have like a boat knife.

47:11

But where's their boat knife go. It's like in the gunnal of

47:13

their sled, the things sliding back

47:15

and forth. It's just getting hammered. It's they

47:18

take terrible care of it. And they will tell you, like,

47:20

you guys got any Like I just had one of my

47:22

buddies the other day, Like I need a boat knife. Like

47:24

I don't really have a boat knife. I've got like

47:27

d two steals and we've got steels are

47:29

like I need a knife, I can just throw in my gunnale

47:31

and you know, when I'm out in Booie Tan and the saltwater.

47:33

It is just like you know, I do whatever I cut

47:35

herring and it's like, dude, that that knife, the blade

47:38

is gonna rust off and like, you know three

47:40

seconds if you do that. And so they want a knife

47:42

that cost forty five dollars. It has really high

47:44

chromium, you know, and and not the

47:47

and or chrome and doesn't have all the like high

47:49

carbon in it, because that type of knife

47:51

just turns to rust when you get it in a corrosive

47:54

environment. So that's part of it too, right, It's

47:56

like when they're beating the junk out of the knives to the

47:58

steels that are generally more hostily that are going

48:00

to perform better typically have high

48:03

level levels of carbon in them, and

48:05

so they don't do well in corrosive environments.

48:08

Anyways, Why do why is it so hard

48:10

to make knives that loves

48:12

salt water? Well,

48:15

if you're talking about a fixed blade knife,

48:18

it's it's all to do. And I'm not a metallurgist,

48:20

but it has everything to do with the chemistry

48:23

of the of the steel itself, like the chemical

48:25

makeup. We do actually have a steel that we

48:28

get uh from an Austrian

48:30

manufacturer called N six eight that,

48:33

which is I guess sort of irrelevant

48:35

what the number is. But N six eight has

48:37

a has a really high

48:40

content of the types of materials

48:42

in the chemical makeup that allow for non

48:45

corrosive non corrosive properties

48:47

in the steel. Now, the tradeoff is typically if

48:49

you drive up the anti

48:52

corrosive properties in a blade, you will

48:54

lose edge edge performance. Right,

48:57

So it stills like yeah, because like stainless like no

48:59

one ever makes a knife. It's just like is

49:02

that behaves like stainless

49:04

steel, right, So our hardest steels are

49:06

not stainless at all, like we have. You have to code

49:08

them or you have to put certain finishes on them, and

49:10

people, I mean, you know, the people have to take care of

49:13

the blades. Now, we also have semi stainless

49:15

steels, and we do have like S THIRTV

49:17

that's in all of these um hunting knives

49:19

to hunt knives. That particular

49:21

steel actually has a really great

49:24

balance between corrosion resistance

49:26

and edge retension and durability.

49:28

But it will still I mean, like you can't just like

49:30

gout an elk, you know, carve up a

49:32

deer with it, you know, a quarter or something mount and throw

49:34

it in your pack and not think about it for the next hunting

49:37

until the next hunting season to pull it out and expect

49:39

that the blade is not gonna have corroded when you left blood

49:42

all over it, right, you gotta you still have to

49:44

take care of it. There are

49:46

some super steels, like another

49:48

bowler steel called M three ninety that

49:50

it's very expensive, but it actually has

49:53

a really interesting uh there's

49:55

a really interesting ability in that steel because

49:57

of the makeup of it to offer both

49:59

corrosioners instance at a high level and edge

50:01

performance. So there are some I

50:03

mean they make custom steels just for

50:06

cutlery and and even metal

50:09

manufacturing companies like s

50:11

thirt V and these hunt knives that is

50:13

a steel that was specifically designed for cutlery,

50:16

like color, like home color,

50:18

any kind of like sports. Yeah, yeah,

50:21

yeah, that's that. There's a difference between those two.

50:23

Right. We think about our products in specialty

50:25

night and the specialty knife market that typically does

50:27

not include the culinary market.

50:30

Most culinary products are going to be

50:33

relatively low carbon stainless unless you get

50:35

into the Japanese like sushi knives.

50:37

Those are I got it. I got a souped up one

50:39

of those those are awesome. Then my

50:41

wife always threatened to throw away because an old girlfriend

50:44

gave it to me, but from

50:46

Japan. But if you caught a line with that thing,

50:49

lets you cut a lime or tomato and don't wipe

50:51

the blade. Yeah, let the blades sit there for ten minutes.

50:54

It's gonna rusty, it turns

50:56

the colors, you know. But

50:58

you can sharpen a thing like nut shaving

51:00

sharp, I mean easily,

51:04

you know, And that's like I

51:06

saw. I think that just

51:08

having a knife that uh would sharp

51:10

and easy is the best

51:13

because I like the sharpen knives, but the met

51:15

guys like I've caught up five elk with my knife and it

51:17

never got dull. There's something sept for

51:19

that. But I'm always worried that guy will never get it sharp again.

51:21

What happened? What happens to that guy when he

51:23

doesn't get it sharp? You

51:26

know enough for it doesn't because there's also something

51:28

that keeping your edge sharp, It helps your edge stage,

51:31

so right, so you know that. So what happens to

51:33

that guy when he's on his sixth elk and he's halfway

51:35

through it and all of a sudden, the nie not

51:37

sharp anymore? So there's a I like to

51:39

keep. You know, STV again offers

51:42

a really great balance between everything, and you can

51:44

put an edge on it in the field with a carbide

51:46

you know, one of those carbide sharpers with a little v

51:48

V notch jaws and enough to get you

51:50

through. Uh. But it's it's

51:53

good to carry like a knife that will

51:55

do both. You have a really hard most people

51:57

carry multiple knives. Good to have one with a really

52:00

strong edge performing edge retention

52:02

type steel and then maybe one that's a little easier

52:04

to sharpen in case for some reason lose

52:06

that or That's what I do is I carry around, like

52:10

when I'm on a hunt, like a big game hunt, I carry my

52:12

pack my knife that only touches

52:14

hide and meat, right Like I don't

52:17

cut cheese with it, whittle sticks with it, and

52:19

like that's not your pocket knife. Yeah, it's

52:21

like it's just that. It's like it's for that. If

52:23

I don't kill something, it never comes out of my

52:25

pack. And then I got like a knife in my pocket

52:27

or knife somewhere, which is my just like you

52:29

know, my messing around thing. And

52:32

it's and it's worth mentioning also for our

52:34

steels because we have such hard steals

52:36

that can be I mean you can do to elk

52:39

two deer or whatever with one blade.

52:41

We also have this really cool program

52:43

called life Sharp where if somebody, even if they

52:45

really am honestly that's you

52:48

can just send it in and and our team

52:50

that we have this product services team, super

52:52

expert technicians. It doesn't matter if it's

52:55

a thirty year old bench made or a brand new one. They'll disassemble

52:57

the whole thing, make sure they fix everything

52:59

to the talk more performance, put an edge back

53:01

on it, and send it back to its free service shipping

53:04

bench made paces of shipping not I mean not to get it to

53:07

us, but we'll ship it back and pay

53:09

the shipping. Yeah.

53:12

Right now, last I checked the turnaround

53:14

times running three days. Really

53:17

yeah, I mean three days in our facility,

53:19

right, so they're shipping and then shipping. Yeah,

53:24

you guys just see some messed up stuff rolling through

53:27

crazy stuff, especially a lot of military knives.

53:29

I was looking at one yesterday that a guy had. He

53:31

was it was a navy diver, and he was down

53:33

cutting rope out of a propeller and

53:36

somebody turned the engine on and it sucked

53:38

the knife into the prop and the knife

53:40

is just I don't know how his hand

53:42

it wasn't ripped off. I

53:45

have no idea what the knife is like. It's just

53:47

been in half. The scales are all blown

53:49

off of it. And typically what our product services team

53:51

will do when they get a knife like that, yeah,

53:53

they'll you'll say, you know, if you can keep the knife, you

53:55

know, so we have the cool story or whatever, They're

53:57

just send a new one out, you

54:00

know. You know the company o R Outdoor

54:02

Research. Yeah, I was down there one day. I used

54:04

to have a friend of a friend I was working there, and we were

54:06

down there monkey around and they got this wall of shame,

54:08

which is like returns they've had. And

54:11

one of the things like a guy had a pair of gloves you could

54:13

tell he had for a million years because they're

54:15

just like full of holes and worn out. And then he

54:17

burned them in the fire. So it's like you tell

54:19

like that they were really messed up. Then he burned

54:22

him in the fire, and he made a return on

54:24

him, you know, and these

54:26

things, Yeah, I just threw in the fire

54:28

for a while, he

54:30

said, he said him a new pair. We're just like insane

54:33

stuff that people try to return you know, they have

54:35

a wall of shame at at loophole

54:38

that I was looking at that. They're all swim

54:40

Portland, so go there sometimes

54:42

to take returns in or you know, look look around

54:44

at new products. And uh I was looking

54:46

at this wall of shame and there's a scope on the wall

54:48

and it's all blasted and it's got

54:50

a note with it. They frame that says, let

54:53

brother in law borrow scope.

54:56

Brother in law dropped scope

54:58

and broke it. Never letting brother

55:00

in law borrowscope again. Going

55:06

back to school too, Yes, um,

55:09

who like, who do you guys mainly what's the

55:12

what's your main clientele? Uh

55:15

so our main clientele

55:17

as far are you talking about, like as far as

55:19

occupation or just as far as people

55:21

like what are the main dude, Like, do you guys sell more

55:24

to law enforcement,

55:26

military, more to just dudes who want a knife to

55:28

carry around for just general cutting stuff

55:30

up. I think that people arrive at a

55:32

certain level of performance

55:35

expectation and their products that regardless

55:38

sort of of what walk of life they're in, because

55:40

we serve as people at all fiery MSS,

55:43

military, hunters, law enforcement,

55:45

people that are just general sports cutlery

55:47

enthusiast collectors. That's the term sports

55:49

color enthusist collectors, right, magazine.

55:52

Yeah, well there's a whole industry. There's a whole

55:54

industry magazine,

55:56

magazine yep, yep, and Knives Illustrated,

55:59

and it's a whole industry. We have a whole trade show dedicated

56:01

to it. It's all custom knife makers.

56:04

But I guess to answer your question in sort

56:06

of a roundabout ways, that we make knives

56:08

for people that want to buy knives

56:11

that are at the at the peak performance

56:14

and maximum value that they can get

56:16

from a manufactured knife, you

56:18

know, and and we sort of bridge the gap between

56:20

custom and manufactured. There's a whole

56:23

like world of garage shop type

56:25

custom knife makers that make really exquisite

56:27

products like you know, like those even those uh

56:30

like you're the the knife that you have,

56:32

the sushi knife, right, Some of those knives can be thousands

56:34

and thousands, tens of thousands at dollars that you know,

56:36

there's a whole world of people who just collect these,

56:39

but not everybody can afford those, and

56:41

even the garage custom guys, it

56:43

takes them. They have three year weight list for some

56:45

of their products. Well, we're able because

56:48

our owner originated in the custom

56:50

knife little bit then found this affinity and

56:52

knack for manufacturing. He started

56:54

working with custom knife designers to bring custom

56:57

knives to a manufactured level at the at

56:59

the same formans, but then to make it

57:01

accessible to more of the masses.

57:04

Yeah you guys. You guys still own

57:06

about like a family, right, yeah, the diass

57:08

family. Yeah, who started

57:10

it out? Started it out? Yeah? And when did they do? When

57:12

did they start? Uh? The Benchmate was

57:14

founded in nineteen eighties seven, so

57:17

the next year is our thirtieth anniversary

57:21

seven. Yeah, well

57:24

there was a company before that, so

57:26

like in around nineteen seventy three, there

57:28

was another company that made mostly Bally

57:31

songs or butterfly knife. That's where the butterfly and our

57:33

logo comes right because our our owner,

57:35

the less Diasas and and the family

57:37

ownership less is Filipino

57:40

and butterfly knives are Filipino knives.

57:43

And he's like calls himself unemployable,

57:45

and he's just like he's like he's just an entrepreneur

57:47

at heart, and he was like, you know, went

57:50

to a gun and knife show because he loved that stuff.

57:52

And he's kicking around, he's talking to these custom knife guys

57:54

and he's like, you guys, can you

57:56

know, like work out of your garage. You can live anywhere

57:58

you want. Like, this is the best thing I've ever heard

58:01

of. It. It's like it's perfect for me. So he started

58:03

getting into custom knives mostly

58:06

through that experience and wanting to find something

58:08

he could do for himself, and he just saw the

58:10

tremendous value that could be provided

58:12

by a well made butterfly knife. Nobody

58:15

made good ones. They were all, you know, like basically

58:17

cobbled together, and so we always used to buy

58:20

can we'd make our own nun chucks.

58:22

What is that word it was? We called them.

58:24

We always saw their numb nunchucker,

58:27

right, Yeah, we'd like buy shitty butterfly

58:29

knives and make nun chucks. That's all.

58:31

Like. Sometimes we'd spend weeks doing nothing

58:33

but that. So he worked

58:35

with custom knife designers to make beautiful,

58:39

well executed butterfly knives, which actually

58:41

is a really great design because the two

58:43

handles prevent the blade from going either direction,

58:46

and so if you make it with tight tolerances, is

58:48

a folding knife that basically is as rigid

58:50

as a fixed blade knife when it's so it's like a stiletto.

58:53

It's meant for like knife fight. Uh

58:55

yeah, I mean originally I

58:57

think originally Butterfly knives had

59:00

martial arts sort of a martial arts history, like

59:02

like nunchucks behind him. Yeah,

59:05

so yes, they'll make you guess we'll make a butterfly

59:07

We do, really, we do. We have this

59:10

itselves like crazy, and we used to make yeah,

59:13

and we used and there are four hundred dollars we

59:15

used to make. Yeah,

59:19

I might know a guy the

59:21

uh we made our Uh

59:24

it just has a number, so we make it's

59:26

we make the sixty to the sixty

59:29

seven and uh. And they're

59:31

just different blade variants. But who's

59:34

buying them? Mostly

59:36

when you get into the Butterfly knives, those are

59:38

collectors people that are into like

59:41

like real sort of key

59:45

niche or niche I should say type

59:47

culory products. And I'm gonna started carrying

59:50

one man when someone asked me to cut some topic but

59:52

ripping thing all around. Some people are just butterfly

59:55

and I love her too. I mean they just appreciate

59:57

the design. You can flip around Butterfly

1:00:00

Knight. I have never got it a deer with a Butterfly

1:00:02

knife but I was just looking at one. I was trying

1:00:04

to show it to my wife last night and how I thought it could have

1:00:06

been a good hunting knife. And she's like, I don't care what you're

1:00:08

talking about right now.

1:00:12

Does the classic design have an edge on

1:00:14

both sides? Uh? You know what, that's

1:00:16

a good question. The one the

1:00:18

most classic design I've seen from

1:00:20

US is the blades called the Weehawk,

1:00:23

And no, it's a single edge. But we also have these

1:00:25

crazy blades called cris blades that look wavy

1:00:27

and they're sharpen on both sides. What I will

1:00:29

tell you is that if you're like the master of the butterfly

1:00:31

knife, then it's kind of like faux Paul

1:00:33

almost to use a single side that you use a double

1:00:35

side. Yeah. Yeah.

1:00:38

And there's dudes they are throwing them up and catching them behind

1:00:40

their back, and that's like, Yeah,

1:00:42

next time I come to see you, I'm expecting

1:00:44

this from you. When I send you a butterfly. They got a pocket

1:00:46

clip? Uh? Some, some do

1:00:48

usually not. Usually they do not have a pocket

1:00:50

clip. They'll come with it with like a sheath. You gotta be quicker

1:00:53

on the draw than you know out of your pocket. I

1:00:56

had no idea, So in the bench made catalog.

1:01:00

Yeah, it's in the bench made catalog. We've

1:01:02

got to we actually have to two

1:01:05

sort of separate families of butterfly or

1:01:07

ballet song knives. One that is more

1:01:09

technologically advanced materials

1:01:12

wise, it has like some stacked handles

1:01:14

and some other things, and then one that's more classic with

1:01:16

with like a machine stainless handles.

1:01:20

Yeah. So how long have you guys had the

1:01:23

how many years has been you've had the like an actual

1:01:25

hunting focus line and knives. Though since

1:01:28

we've had an actual, like core

1:01:30

hunting line, it's only been three

1:01:32

years. We we've spent a lot of time,

1:01:34

I should I should also say

1:01:36

there's a caveat with that. We've almost always

1:01:38

had hunting knives in the line, and

1:01:41

we spent a lot of time trying different

1:01:43

approaches to that great

1:01:45

that were perfectly applicable to hunting or yeah,

1:01:47

or even like knives called the Burden Trout knife

1:01:49

for I mean like like actual hunting knives. But the

1:01:52

Hunt series is our first

1:01:54

ever like fully vested knife

1:01:57

series, like a full line of knives

1:02:00

specifically applied to hunting.

1:02:03

So when you have like the steep country

1:02:05

I'm actually holding you one of these right now. How did

1:02:07

it come to be that? Uh?

1:02:10

How did like? Why?

1:02:13

I know how to ask this? It's all

1:02:15

over magazines, best

1:02:17

this, best that? Is that? Like

1:02:20

honest that? Or

1:02:23

do you submit to those kind of things? You

1:02:26

mean like great New

1:02:28

Year? Best in the bastard

1:02:31

tore it up so field. I feel like every magazine

1:02:33

you opened up had that knife. And we do very

1:02:35

little paid print advertising. And

1:02:38

I love saying this because hopefully it's will mean a lot

1:02:40

of the print advertisers won't call me and

1:02:42

solicit my business. But I somehow doubt that that's

1:02:44

true. We do. We do a very little print

1:02:47

advertising. Most of what we invest our money

1:02:49

in is back into product technology. So typically

1:02:51

it's kind of like a biologist. I this

1:02:53

is not always true, but like with a biologist,

1:02:56

you have to like come from a place

1:02:58

of factual science or you're not able anymore.

1:03:01

For for people they're doing gear reviews.

1:03:03

If you're letting advertising bias

1:03:05

your gear reviews, people eventually

1:03:08

will see that and you will no longer be credible

1:03:10

at reviewing equipment right, and

1:03:13

and then you'll lose everything. So

1:03:15

usually with a magazine, there

1:03:17

is no connection at least as what

1:03:19

they tell you. If I would like tried to call

1:03:22

an advertiser and say, hey, you're advertising

1:03:24

a gerber knife, your your you gave

1:03:26

a good review to a gerber knife, and I just placed a full

1:03:28

page ad and that month's issue.

1:03:30

That's bs you know, they would say, you

1:03:33

know, we don't even talk to those people. The editorial

1:03:35

people are totally different from the advertising

1:03:37

department, and they do that because otherwise the

1:03:39

publication loses credibility.

1:03:42

And do you think that's true? Because I feel like I

1:03:44

can just point in every single magazine, not always,

1:03:47

not always, but like like Field and Stream

1:03:49

Best of the Best, we don't advertise in Field

1:03:51

and Stream, never have or and we won

1:03:53

Best of the Best three three times,

1:03:55

and I think three times in the last five years.

1:03:58

And that's not because it's

1:04:00

not because we're paying for advertising. That's not what they call

1:04:02

advertorial. So there's also advertorial

1:04:05

right where you're paying for the editorial. That's

1:04:09

cool knife. I think

1:04:11

it says a lot about you two and the product that

1:04:13

the sheath seems well fought out

1:04:15

and it seems solid. We've

1:04:18

spent a lot of time on that in the last few years. We

1:04:20

the sheath has been an afterthought for us

1:04:23

because we mostly were a folding knife company, ballet

1:04:25

songs and things, so there was a learning curve. Over the last

1:04:27

ten years we started to get more into fixed blades

1:04:29

to understand, like in a fixed blade, the

1:04:31

sheath is as it's as important

1:04:34

as the as the knife itself. Kind

1:04:38

of knife you got, Randall, Well, I got a

1:04:40

bench made. Now what

1:04:43

do you have before that? Uh?

1:04:46

You know, I I have like a just

1:04:48

a sorry to say, I have

1:04:50

like a little gerber pocket folder

1:04:53

that I'll carry, um and you don't kill anything

1:04:55

anyway. Yeah, well, then I have to have one.

1:04:57

I have to have one tucked away in the pack and

1:04:59

that just as the

1:05:03

rope and cheese knife. Yeah, but no,

1:05:06

it's I mean, I

1:05:08

uh yeah, I adopted

1:05:10

sort of the and and now I have one

1:05:12

of the other like the razor's edge or whatever it is.

1:05:14

But I like the like the outdoor edge. Yeah,

1:05:17

I like that goes in

1:05:19

and yeah, and it's got more of a curved

1:05:22

more of a traditional radius than the have a

1:05:24

lot for caping and stuff like that. I like

1:05:26

that. But yeah, I mean, i'm i'm

1:05:29

i'm I sort of got

1:05:32

into the replaceable blades because I never I

1:05:35

never got good at sharpening my

1:05:37

own. Yeah, growing

1:05:39

up, like for t happen, I spent a lot of times sharpening.

1:05:42

Yeah. I mean there's a lot of said for replaceable. Once

1:05:44

one thing a guy said to me that weighed at me a little

1:05:46

bit later on was he's like he's talking about

1:05:48

just like disposable culture. Yeah,

1:05:51

And at first I dismissed it, but all I'm like, god,

1:05:53

you know there is like he's like, whatever happen

1:05:55

is like having a thing that you just have and you learn how

1:05:57

to take care and like the whole world is

1:06:00

memories associated. Yeah, that was kind of knife,

1:06:02

and that's that's sort of how I felt about the

1:06:04

the havevalon. I don't think I'm ever gonna look at the havelon

1:06:07

and say, like a lot of good memories

1:06:09

with this thing, you know, because my dad,

1:06:12

my dad used to have this joke read say like he

1:06:14

had this old hatchet, like yeah, my great

1:06:16

grandfather's hatchet. It's had just had three

1:06:18

new heads and uhuh, four new handles.

1:06:23

So now explain what you're in talent for randal Um.

1:06:25

I'm here for the like we're in Seattle, Randalls

1:06:28

in Seattle, doesn't live here, Lisa Montana. Yeah.

1:06:30

So I'm here for the American

1:06:33

Society for Environmental History, the sh

1:06:35

National Conference. Do you present anything?

1:06:38

Nope, UM, here to listen. I'm just here

1:06:40

to listen and to meet people, shake hands,

1:06:42

UM, and uh,

1:06:44

listen to papers and

1:06:47

what you wind up putting some papers in a magazine.

1:06:49

I mean, that's that's the idea is hopefully I can

1:06:52

solicit some I work as an editor, um,

1:06:54

and so I'm I'm looking for UM

1:06:57

scholars out there that are doing interesting research

1:07:00

and try to solicit some manuscript

1:07:02

submissions that hopefully we can publish paying

1:07:04

top dollar. Uh.

1:07:08

No, it's more of a charity thing, some

1:07:12

good exposure. Yeah. I mean, give me

1:07:14

a for instance of something you're gonna go watch, like a

1:07:17

presentation. Um.

1:07:21

You know, there's actually one panel

1:07:23

that I'm sort of interested in. And I don't know that it's

1:07:25

necessarily for UM.

1:07:28

It's it's more for personal interests and professional

1:07:31

interests, because I don't know that would really publish any of these.

1:07:33

But there there's a panel on uh

1:07:37

sort of the

1:07:39

the imposition of trapping regulations

1:07:42

on UM Indigenous communities

1:07:44

in in Canada. And

1:07:48

yeah, yeah, so so there are a

1:07:50

couple, uh, and I'm not gonna really

1:07:52

absolutely skim to the program a couple of times

1:07:54

and just try to get an idea of what panels I

1:07:56

want to stay it on. But there's a couple of papers about

1:07:58

UM yeah, sort of the changing politics

1:08:02

and regulation of trapping UM

1:08:04

in I think like BC and so

1:08:07

yeah, and and there's imposition is

1:08:10

being like the effects of those regulations

1:08:12

on them. UM. I don't I don't really

1:08:15

know. All I've seen is like the titles of the papers

1:08:17

UM, but they're the sort of looking at UM

1:08:19

how this affects I would imagine

1:08:22

And here I'm sort of just speculating,

1:08:24

but UM,

1:08:27

you know this is ah, these are practices

1:08:29

and behaviors and cultures

1:08:31

that have existed for a

1:08:33

very very long time. And uh,

1:08:37

the the way that they they

1:08:39

resisted or adapted UM.

1:08:44

The imposition you know of of various

1:08:46

regulations on these practices, I don't

1:08:48

know. Yeah. So there's a lot of and and there's there's

1:08:51

scholars working UM

1:08:54

in all over the place. So

1:08:56

it's you know, they're global topics. They're

1:08:59

UM panel that are specific to North

1:09:01

America, regions of North America. But it's

1:09:03

it's sort of the full spectrum. And then there are also various

1:09:06

workshops and different things like that. So um

1:09:09

it should be a fun interesting

1:09:12

a few days. But it's these these

1:09:14

uh every sort of sub field of history

1:09:17

has its own national conference

1:09:19

every year, and so it's a chance for people that are

1:09:21

spread out across um

1:09:23

various universities, you know each each you

1:09:27

know, certain departments are larger than others.

1:09:29

But you know at a at

1:09:31

a school like the University of Montana, say

1:09:33

there's one Russian historian

1:09:36

and there's one environmental

1:09:38

historian. And so the national

1:09:40

conferences allow these people that are working

1:09:42

on UH topics that speak to

1:09:44

one another to all gather in one place and

1:09:47

and share ideas and see sort of what

1:09:49

their colleagues out there are working on.

1:09:52

Is there is there certain research that you look for,

1:09:55

like specifically that you're hoping for out of

1:09:57

this that you'll publish, not necessarily

1:10:00

UM, just topics relevant to

1:10:03

UH Western history, Montana

1:10:05

history, environmental history. So UM,

1:10:08

just sort of seeing what's out there and meeting

1:10:10

people. And then there are a lot of people from

1:10:13

um various presses

1:10:15

that are there um to look for book

1:10:18

manuscripts or to meet people so it's also sort

1:10:20

of there's that element to it as well. You can

1:10:22

do some hardcore hob novin. Yeah, pretty much.

1:10:24

I got all the business cards lined up. You know, it's

1:10:27

funny about trapping regulations. The spring

1:10:29

and April, we're going uh to Wyoming

1:10:31

for some spring beaver action, and

1:10:35

um, there's a reciprocity

1:10:37

thing between the states with trapping. For

1:10:39

instance, Montana, Um,

1:10:43

you can't trap any a nonresident

1:10:46

cannot get a trapping license in Montana

1:10:48

to trap beaver, for instance, like

1:10:51

fur bears. Okay, you can go trap coyotes,

1:10:55

bobcats like that, various predators, but you can't

1:10:57

trap what they have listed as fur bears

1:10:59

like muskrat manc river outer beaver.

1:11:02

Um. So what a

1:11:04

lot of states will do, Like let's say you're in a state that is

1:11:06

open and nonresident travers, but

1:11:09

since Montana doesn't allow

1:11:11

nonresidents, they won't let someone from Montana

1:11:14

buy a license in their state. Okay,

1:11:17

So Wyoming is open to

1:11:20

any nonresident coming from a state

1:11:22

that's in turn open to Wyoming.

1:11:26

Even though Washington has like some draconian

1:11:29

trapping regularly trappings basically

1:11:32

illegal because they've outlawed

1:11:35

all the tools of the trade without

1:11:37

actually outlawing the practice. So you can't

1:11:40

use connter, berries, can't use footholds.

1:11:43

However, it's legal, right,

1:11:45

so you look like which made the

1:11:47

traffic? Like the trapping regulations here are kind of ridiculous

1:11:49

because like everything's like open for a really

1:11:52

long time, you know,

1:11:54

and they only like they like barely update

1:11:56

the regulations. But regulations are basically

1:11:58

go ahead. Bro, just can't use trapped because

1:12:02

you're not gonna like you can use get live traps, you know what

1:12:04

I mean. So I'm filling

1:12:06

out this form for Whoming getting my Wyoming

1:12:09

you know, beaver trapping license, and I'm filling

1:12:11

out this form. It's like their eyes like, um,

1:12:14

are you allowed to trap X?

1:12:17

It's like yes, um

1:12:19

are non residents allowed to trap X?

1:12:21

And it's because all like yes, yes, yes, yes, yes says

1:12:24

yes. And I almost wanted to put a note on there being like

1:12:26

well, actually no, but let's

1:12:28

just say yes theoretical. And

1:12:30

I sent it in and I got my I

1:12:32

was accepted and got my Wyoming,

1:12:35

got my Wyoming for harvester. You're

1:12:37

gonna get a letter back from Wyoming it says you can

1:12:39

come hunt, but you can't use. Yeah, yeah,

1:12:41

but yeah, bro, yeah welcome, come get

1:12:43

some beaver, but just keep mind you can't use at

1:12:47

the tools that go with trapping. I never

1:12:49

thought of the impact on Indigenous people, and

1:12:51

people tend to be more sensitive that than

1:12:53

they do. Um, you know other

1:12:57

people who have traditional use practices, And

1:12:59

yeah, I don't know. Um,

1:13:01

I really don't have any um

1:13:04

specific or detailed knowledge about how it

1:13:06

works. And you haven't gone to the conference Yeteah,

1:13:08

well, hopefully I'll be able to tell you a bit more in a couple

1:13:10

of days. But

1:13:12

yeah, the Canadian side of things is something of a

1:13:14

mystery to man more knowledge of

1:13:17

UH treaty rights and subsistence

1:13:20

rights in the US. I'll tell you one interesting

1:13:22

about a lot of areas in Canada's you have a registered

1:13:24

line, like you have a

1:13:26

line, the same way you might have a commercial fishing

1:13:28

license, you know, and you like sell Like you

1:13:30

have a registered line, you can sell that line,

1:13:34

you know, when ice trap is just like

1:13:36

it's just honor system. Like you

1:13:38

might be like, yeah, so and Soul works that area,

1:13:41

and nothing was actually preventing you from going

1:13:43

out there. It would just be like an honor system

1:13:45

that you did or did not go along with. But

1:13:47

there yeah, man, you get like a registered line. You

1:13:50

buy a line off someone I used to shopper,

1:13:52

like, I used to sit there with magazines, like in the back of Trapper

1:13:54

and Predator Caller magazine when I was a kid. You

1:13:56

look in the classifies and be people selling trap

1:13:59

lines, you know, and

1:14:01

um, just one go for it back. I can't

1:14:03

remember, but I remember like I would waste some of these guys

1:14:05

time by like writing and asking

1:14:07

for more information and they'd send these just maps,

1:14:10

you know, basically a map just like

1:14:12

never ending swamp. Yeah,

1:14:16

hundreds of miles. You know. You buy a trapline,

1:14:18

Yeah, always thought it's fine, go

1:14:21

for it. So concluding thoughts,

1:14:23

Johnnie, oh

1:14:25

boy, can you go first? What

1:14:30

I mean, what's up with the hunt eat? And we haven't

1:14:32

talked about hunting eating a long time? We haven't.

1:14:34

I meant to wear my T shirt today he's

1:14:36

got one on all this kid wears his Hunt

1:14:38

Teachers. I can't tell it's because he loves hunt eat

1:14:40

or if he just has a lot of T shirts trying

1:14:42

to get the word both. And if

1:14:45

you have to wear your own products, um

1:14:49

yeah, we gotta, we have we have a Turkey

1:14:51

shirt that the thing goes live today. So

1:14:54

but not state affiliated. No, is

1:14:56

this your first non state affiliated shirt? No,

1:14:58

we've got the first one was not like

1:15:01

four or five. Now I've been told to

1:15:04

pass along word that we need an Ohio shirt.

1:15:06

So Oregon, do you have an Oregon

1:15:09

shirt? No? He won't make it till you hear from

1:15:11

ten people. I got ten people.

1:15:13

Like Idaho

1:15:15

is like it gonna be at

1:15:17

the printers in the next week or so. By the time

1:15:20

anybody hears this, it will probably be live already.

1:15:22

But Washington, Idaho,

1:15:24

Yeah, there, they should be live by the time this podcast

1:15:26

here. So how many states by

1:15:29

the time the podcast there? Oh boy, maybe

1:15:32

ten? Close to it? A

1:15:34

long way to go, Yeah, we do. But

1:15:36

you know what, you're adding t shirts faster than we

1:15:39

added states as a country. You'll

1:15:43

catch up eventually. Yeah, we

1:15:45

haven't had. We haven't added once in the fifties.

1:15:47

So all right, do you do you think you wind

1:15:49

up doing Hawaiians? We're going hunt in Hawaii this year.

1:15:52

It would be a good one. It's like a destination hunt

1:15:54

spot. We finally, like a lot of

1:15:56

people buy Montana in Alaska,

1:15:59

you know, because it's like a dream hunt dream.

1:16:04

My brother there Day was wearing a Hunt deep Montana

1:16:06

on where he got I didn't give it to him.

1:16:08

I know where he got it. Oh dude, I

1:16:12

get him to He said, sweet my

1:16:14

two new favorite T shirts. Um,

1:16:18

so that's your conclusion, No it's not. That's my concluding

1:16:20

thought. What's yours? Oh

1:16:22

man, I'm gonna bring him back around to lead and

1:16:25

just like I like I said, I'm I'm

1:16:27

I feel like the reason we're having a discussion because

1:16:29

there's just not enough research out there. So

1:16:31

I'm hoping that now it's kind of coming back and

1:16:34

a lot of people are talking about it again, someone's gonna

1:16:36

get after and do some more research because

1:16:39

come out of since you're bringing it back up, I'll

1:16:42

bring it back up. I think we haven't brought up in just like efficacy,

1:16:45

right, it's some things just

1:16:48

work real well. It works real

1:16:50

well. So it's it's like, I'm

1:16:52

trying to weigh that out as well. What

1:16:54

is the like when you come in with what

1:16:57

is it? Gonna say what is it? What would it do to wound loss?

1:17:01

You know, are you gonna have a lot more wound loss

1:17:03

as you dictate

1:17:05

less effective ammunitions

1:17:08

to people. So I've

1:17:10

I've found the statistics on this, at least for

1:17:13

someone from US Fish and Wildlife basically

1:17:16

had said that once they

1:17:18

instituted the ban, there was

1:17:20

a spike in self reported wound

1:17:22

loss and then over time

1:17:25

it dropped back down and now it's below

1:17:28

what it was prior because people adapted.

1:17:31

They weren't taking six, they weren't taking six. But

1:17:34

I don't believe. Here's the thing that

1:17:37

gets into a whole other issue

1:17:39

of sciences. It's very I think

1:17:41

that self reported very

1:17:44

hard. Go around, do a little informal survey

1:17:47

and ask all your bowl hunting buddies what

1:17:50

they think wound what what's your wound loss

1:17:52

rate? Yeah, you'll

1:17:54

never get an honest answer. You'll

1:17:57

never get an honest answer. Um.

1:18:01

I think that when guys fill that out, it's

1:18:03

like, dude, I

1:18:05

don't believe the thing. I mean, I'm sure some people

1:18:08

probably do it, but people don't

1:18:10

like to self incriminate. Now

1:18:12

that it against love. I think people are like I think

1:18:14

most people are full of it when it comes to

1:18:16

the wound loss rates when they report it. Right, So

1:18:19

the reporting might not be representative of reality,

1:18:21

but the change in reporting over time

1:18:24

does give you some sense at least of

1:18:26

the bigger pictures. Everybody's probably not

1:18:29

reporting totally honestly, but the way they do report,

1:18:31

yeah, yeah, they I saw that. I read

1:18:33

that saything they saw a spike and

1:18:36

it wasn't a horrible spike. They saw from

1:18:40

near or someth to

1:18:42

something like whatever the numbers were. And then

1:18:45

within a few years it dropped back down to twenty,

1:18:47

and then shortly after that

1:18:49

it even dipped below sort of pre

1:18:52

band numbers. So yeah,

1:18:54

as people adjusted well, and for waterfowl,

1:18:57

if you want the efficacy, you can shoot the business

1:18:59

and tongsen costs quite a bit more. And I

1:19:01

wonder why we haven't seen a tungsten or business

1:19:04

cord hunting bullet yet.

1:19:06

I don't know. There's some reason for it or not. It would

1:19:08

be good. We gotta get a metall or just out here. I'm

1:19:10

going that way with fishing tackle, you

1:19:13

know what I mean? Non lead teeth

1:19:15

too bad, man, Like I can bite

1:19:18

lead sinkers all day long. Man, You give me a non

1:19:20

toxic sinker and I chew into that thing. Dude,

1:19:22

that hurts. Yeah, I'm I'm thread through,

1:19:24

you know, thread the thought bullet weights. Wh I'm talking to

1:19:26

tungsten. For the most part, I don't know about trying to bite

1:19:28

down on tungsten. Wait, that's ill advised,

1:19:31

I think. And then steel shot shatters

1:19:33

your teeth. We used I

1:19:35

think it was tin. I want

1:19:37

to say, five fish in those green egg ones and

1:19:40

uh, I actually liked those because they were so

1:19:42

reusable. I feel like they I just got more use

1:19:45

out of than the lead.

1:19:47

They're less malleable, which

1:19:50

I think just yeah, just gave them longer life.

1:19:52

They held their form better. Man, You're

1:19:54

sitting about five ft from my little stash

1:19:56

of non toxic sinkers back there,

1:20:00

and I'll have to say, I was just fishing the other day and that's not the

1:20:02

one I grabbed. Grabbed

1:20:04

the old stylers a lot

1:20:06

less expensive to the old style I'd

1:20:09

like to keep in my mouth. Um, but you know

1:20:11

what I find O. It's like, uh, I

1:20:14

do catch myself Like I don't like my kid messing with

1:20:16

them. M I don't like him. No, I

1:20:18

don't like him pinching him down because the teeth

1:20:20

Like I wore a groom into my teeth cutting monofilment,

1:20:24

and I probably like cap my

1:20:26

tooth with lead. But yeah,

1:20:30

man, and I started. Then

1:20:32

I switched the floral carbon and it's

1:20:34

like, you're like, dude, that's even harder. You gotta

1:20:36

use a canine teeth for the floral carbon teeth.

1:20:39

Oh yeah, Matt, what are your concluding thoughts?

1:20:42

Ah? Well, uh,

1:20:44

it got stolen. I was gonna bring it back to the

1:20:46

to the lead versus copper issue.

1:20:49

I suppose if I had a concluding

1:20:51

thought on that, I just hope that whatever

1:20:55

whatever decisions are made come

1:20:57

from the sound science and a good a

1:20:59

good place, a good place

1:21:01

of thoughtfulness and and in the

1:21:04

best interests of conservation, and not political

1:21:07

party line. Yeah, not

1:21:09

like I don't like guns,

1:21:11

right, therefore I think the lead is toxic, right,

1:21:15

and I like conversely, I like guns,

1:21:17

therefore lead can do no harm. Right. Yeah.

1:21:20

Yeah, I don't think you should come from that either. Randall's

1:21:23

your concluding thought? Oh,

1:21:26

man, I don't know. You're

1:21:29

excited about this. I'm excited about this conference.

1:21:31

I'm intrigued by I

1:21:34

want to meet someone who identifies as

1:21:36

a self professed sport culinary

1:21:38

enthusiast. I like that. I'm

1:21:41

still too and on that one, but I

1:21:44

don't know sport cutlery. I'm sorry,

1:21:46

Yeah, what did I say culinary

1:21:48

because I was saying that's me, dude, I'm

1:21:50

a sport culinary here with you, a sport

1:21:52

culory enthusiast. Um.

1:21:55

Yeah, I don't know when it

1:21:57

comes to lead and steel. Uh,

1:22:00

I don't really hit enough birds

1:22:02

for it to make a difference. So we're

1:22:06

just talking about all my all my empty

1:22:08

honeyholes before we got started here at them.

1:22:11

Yeah, we're talking about the fear

1:22:13

of losing your GPS, and Randal

1:22:15

just saying he'll switch GPS even with anybody

1:22:19

because he said it can't be any worse than what he's got.

1:22:22

I'd like to point out that I started shooting

1:22:25

copper well before I ever

1:22:27

thought about lead poisoning in my

1:22:29

gaming, because I saw the

1:22:32

efficacy in the field as a guide

1:22:34

and I'd be like, what, you know what someone

1:22:36

would recover a bullet. I'm like, I've never seen that thing?

1:22:39

What is that? Oh, it's the you know Barnes, you

1:22:41

know triple shot. I was like, Wow, that thing

1:22:43

hit that elk in just Jordan And I know

1:22:45

a lot of that has to do with shot places. More

1:22:48

of that has to do shot placement than the bullet itself.

1:22:50

But anyways, that's kind of what got me shooting

1:22:52

those coppers and went until later until you know

1:22:54

someone's like, oh you also get that out of benefit

1:22:56

of you know, that's what I want. That's the norther thing

1:22:59

that I talked about it that came up in this this

1:23:02

kind this uh conversation,

1:23:05

was I said, in some ways, I feel

1:23:07

like it's gonna wind up being beyond the point,

1:23:09

not with lead shot for for upland

1:23:12

birds and stuff. I was like, in some ways, I think it's the

1:23:14

discussion about toxicity

1:23:16

is beside the point because if

1:23:18

you look at reloaders,

1:23:22

like if you look at the avant garde,

1:23:24

the cutting edge, there's

1:23:27

just a very I feel like there's a

1:23:29

very definite shift going towards monolithic

1:23:31

bullets, don't

1:23:34

you think. I mean, it's just like more and more people who don't

1:23:36

give a ship about the lead issue are

1:23:39

shooting solid You

1:23:42

don't feel that that's true. I

1:23:44

don't know. I wouldn't say you

1:23:47

know better than me. If I'm wrong, tell me, because I feel

1:23:50

like you know more about that stuff than I do. And I think a

1:23:52

lot of people, like especially I think out

1:23:54

of all the monolithics. They like the barns

1:23:56

because it's known to being accurate

1:23:58

bullet. You know, a lot of people just get good loads

1:24:00

out of it that they are accurate loads. But

1:24:02

I feel like it's especially with the long

1:24:04

range crowd most of them, I don't think they

1:24:07

are shooting rats. Yeah, I think they're shooting

1:24:09

lead core. Especially with long

1:24:11

range, the bullet a lot of times upon the impact

1:24:13

is moving slower, and so they need a bullet

1:24:15

that fragments or you know, pedals more

1:24:18

at a lower velocity, which the monolithics

1:24:20

don't do. That's what That's what I that

1:24:23

was when I made the switch back

1:24:26

to Jack and his bullets was,

1:24:31

um, I shot a

1:24:34

deer with

1:24:36

It was pretty far out. It was,

1:24:39

I feel like, if I remember, it was four

1:24:41

hundred sixty yards a long ways.

1:24:44

I shot a deer and he

1:24:48

still continued running around, running

1:24:52

does and I'm like, I don't understand

1:24:54

which this happened. And then eventually he got

1:24:56

woozy and fell over. And when I went up to him,

1:24:58

it looked like someone had taken a

1:25:03

dowel and punched

1:25:06

the dowel through his body field point. Yeah,

1:25:09

it looked like, yeah, like you took a field point arrow and

1:25:11

just stuck it into him. No, it's definitely number

1:25:13

one complaint. It didn't do It

1:25:16

was like he didn't even know what happened. Yeah,

1:25:19

definitely through the lungs and eventually

1:25:22

faded out. And then people

1:25:25

like and that's what I was like, and it's

1:25:27

going back and something I know and trust. Then

1:25:31

people just said shooting his shoulder. Then

1:25:34

you get him in the high shoulder, so okay,

1:25:36

So then I gotta blow the shoulders out of him

1:25:39

and ruin all kinds of meat. What

1:25:42

if you miss? Yeah,

1:25:44

everybody's always preparing for the

1:25:48

guys like I hit him right in the head. It's like, is that right? Right?

1:25:51

What what mean you wanted? You gotta prepare

1:25:54

for. Man, there's a lot of variables, right,

1:25:56

and you gotta prepare for the variables. What happens if your shots

1:25:58

not exactly high shoulder? What if it's a

1:26:00

little far back? Yeah,

1:26:04

I like, you know, like

1:26:07

the trophy bonded, the bear clot

1:26:09

like just a ya,

1:26:12

they all they all have failure rate, so you

1:26:14

know, yeah, I mean it's you

1:26:17

can say that those bullets, you know, it's super

1:26:20

close range. You know, they might fragment

1:26:22

too much. If you do hit the bone and then they don't

1:26:24

make it into the vitals, especially

1:26:27

some of the long range stuff that is made to be very

1:26:29

you know, frangible. You know, you do hit a big

1:26:31

bone right off the bat at fifty yards, that bullet

1:26:34

just blows up and it might not never even make

1:26:36

it into the cavity. So

1:26:40

all right, that's it, right,

1:26:44

that's all I got to say. You got a

1:26:46

concluding thought, Randall. He gave it. Yeah,

1:26:48

but I don't remember. It wasn't like I wasn't blown away by

1:26:50

it. I can't remember what it was. What was it?

1:26:52

Pretty high standard? He was saying he would he would

1:26:55

trade his GPS to anybody out

1:26:57

there. Oh yeah, And he's saying, and

1:27:00

I remember, now, Um, you'd

1:27:02

have a good cluting thought sport culinary.

1:27:05

He wants to be a sport coulory enthusiast.

1:27:07

But you didn't have a clearly thought where that

1:27:10

that you reiterated your disdain for

1:27:13

bias. I

1:27:15

did, yeah, in a in an eloquent

1:27:18

way. I

1:27:20

made a point about someone hate and lead because

1:27:23

they hate guns, and you said, but it's

1:27:26

just love lead, it's just because

1:27:29

you love guns can do no harm.

1:27:31

Yeah, all right, thanks

1:27:34

for tuning in