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coming at you shirtless, severely,

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bug bitten, and in my case, underwear.

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Listeningdcast,

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you can't predict anything.

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it out at first light dot com. F

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I R S T L I T

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E dot com

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fills your machine on machines on how

0:42

long.

0:42

Has it been on?

0:44

Long enough?

0:45

Let's we'll start it right where I said. Is

0:47

it on? Great? I'm

0:50

holding my hands right here? Uh

0:52

uh?

0:54

Who's the kid? That's a kid sent this in? I

0:57

call him a kid. Yeah,

0:59

he's like said age I don't know. Called

1:02

a Musky Manifesto Observer

1:05

number five, September eighteenth,

1:07

twenty twenty three.

1:10

The Musky Dossier.

1:11

A lot of mail comes in. I don't know how this email got sent

1:13

me, but I had it printed off, which makes it seem more

1:15

thing.

1:15

It's from a kid.

1:19

It's a manifesto full of photos and everything,

1:21

and it has to do with one of my favorite pet

1:23

peeves, which is the latest

1:26

the new craze

1:29

of the new musky craze,

1:32

like Musky two point zero.

1:36

This is something that you've made up.

1:38

No, yes, my

1:40

as I was just saying before Phil turned the machine

1:42

on. My maternal grandfather was a Musky

1:44

fisherman. Now

1:47

back then you just went fishing muskies.

1:50

Now it's this whole thing of like they treat them

1:52

like they're like people, treat

1:54

them like they're like pets. They

1:57

got all these strains, they turn them out. There's

2:00

like they're they're like, it's it's rotten.

2:02

Real guys that have gotten his persnickety

2:04

is is UH

2:07

catch and release trout anglers? Well,

2:10

supposedly super interested in the well

2:13

being of the fish, but not so interesting

2:15

that you wouldn't try to jab a big hook in its lip.

2:18

A lot of the recent UH enthusiasm

2:21

comes from the fly fishing crowd. No,

2:24

yes from US muskies.

2:25

Yes, maybe you

2:28

cast out a big lure, you get close, you do

2:30

the figure eight, they do that with you. You

2:33

get mad if someone is mean to one.

2:36

All I can say is, if you're new

2:40

timeline is my entire

2:42

life.

2:44

It maybe which made five years.

2:48

This is an example

2:51

of that

2:53

just came about came into my universe

2:56

and now I'm interested in it, and so it's

2:59

musky.

3:01

Geologic time, this whole thing

3:03

of like, oh, did you hear that in Dickerson

3:06

Lake they released the quad

3:08

four strain three

3:11

quad four strains.

3:13

Oh, I don't know about this either.

3:16

I'm making up the words, and I

3:18

guarantee there's a Dickerson Lake though,

3:22

Brandon, are you aware.

3:23

Of when

3:26

was musky one point? Oh, I've caught one old

3:28

day, the old days forty maternal grandfather,

3:31

and then there was a hiatus for then there was.

3:33

A break, and then there was just like fishing, and then all of a

3:35

sudden it became like that the catch and release,

3:37

the really precious, persnickety,

3:40

mean spirited catch and release school

3:42

of thought got moved

3:45

away from brown trout and laid.

3:47

Upon the muskie. Interesting,

3:49

and now brown trout are being given a break? Are

3:52

the col people.

3:54

Are still mean to give your mean to a brown trout?

3:56

Oh?

3:57

Yeah, And I guess there's a lot of

3:59

top water action. There's

4:01

some similar baits, just similar

4:03

sizing, folks

4:05

going nighttime activities, all that stuff,

4:07

going after both species.

4:09

Fish with a thousand. I

4:11

caught thou musky

4:14

chet caught some muskies caught one musky in my

4:16

life by tiger musk. No musky

4:18

musky? What strain? I

4:21

didn't ask it? You turn it right

4:23

out? It strained the line. I

4:26

turned it loose. We took one photo. I was fishing

4:28

a little spinner bait. Thought I might pick up

4:30

a walleye and a little lake in Wisconsin, and

4:34

thought I had a log. Wasn't a log.

4:36

Fought it for about twenty five minutes, and my dad got in

4:38

a net. This is a little We

4:40

were in a little john boat we rented for twenty five

4:43

bucks on this this lake in Wisconsin. We

4:45

just thought we were going to mess around, and we

4:47

were messing around. Didn't think we'd catch

4:49

a musky. And my picture's still on the wall of that

4:52

place. Really, Oh yeah, how big

4:54

was it? I don't know, forty five

4:56

inches. We didn't have we didn't have a scale, we didn't have a ruler.

4:58

It was a nice fish.

4:59

The anger hearing from his Brendan Rundy

5:02

here from North Carolina. He's a marine scientist.

5:05

What did I say wrong?

5:07

His last name?

5:08

No?

5:09

He took me sorry,

5:12

I stand corrected.

5:13

I will think that's

5:15

right.

5:17

That's that's my uncle. Actually nice,

5:20

really.

5:22

So now now I'm real dubious

5:24

about this supposed fish he's got on the wall.

5:28

Yeah, he's a marine scientist

5:30

of the Nature Conservancy, and he's

5:32

not going to put it this way, but he's here to talk

5:34

about

5:37

what I'm what I suspect to be a little

5:40

bit of a deal with the devil on

5:41

on alternative energy.

5:44

Definitely not how I'm going to put it.

5:46

No,

5:48

not the devil, but but

5:50

uh a fatal compromise,

5:55

a fatal compromise. But

6:00

I don't want to lose sight of the muskie manifesto. I

6:02

don't want to spend ton.

6:03

Of time on it.

6:05

So this kid and his dad and his grandpa are outfish

6:07

and muskies muscle lunges, and

6:11

they catch a whopper. They catch

6:14

the world record musky

6:16

by a good stretch.

6:18

Well, let's hear how good of a stretch?

6:21

You gotta have details if you're talking world record

6:24

man.

6:24

They catch it.

6:25

This kid that wrote in his observer number.

6:28

Five okay out of

6:32

some undetermined number of observers.

6:36

Um, okay. He

6:38

even tells us the Linnean name.

6:42

He socks mass quiner g.

6:43

Seventy two pound musky.

6:47

All kinds of witnesses they weigh it.

6:52

They put it on a thing.

6:55

They mayn't handle it.

6:58

They're mean to it. The rub off,

7:01

rub the slime off it, turn

7:03

it loose. Uh.

7:07

They go and they tell a guy.

7:09

They go and tell a guy at the dock about The guy

7:11

says man, the musky community. I wouldn't

7:13

even put it out there because the muskie community will come

7:15

after you.

7:17

Anyways.

7:17

The I g F A kicks him off because they weighed

7:20

the fish on a boat.

7:24

M A lot of technicalities

7:27

with the idea.

7:27

The muskie has to be weighed on dry

7:30

land.

7:33

So you have to kill the fish. Basically,

7:36

how are you going to pull that off with that in

7:39

a regular old boat?

7:40

You have that cradle and then you like nurse

7:42

the thing all the way.

7:44

He's got all these photos.

7:47

More stress, more stress.

7:49

Here's the fish here.

7:51

But one thing he gets into is he gets in it probably

7:53

weighed more of course, because

7:57

they will. They had to certify their scale

8:00

after the fact. The scale they certified

8:02

after the fact was dead on balls at

8:04

fifty

8:06

but a seventy five pound weight when they

8:08

certified their scale is seventy five pound

8:10

weight rang in at seventy two fifty.

8:13

Seventy two five.

8:17

Kicked off, and this is

8:19

his story, kicked

8:21

off because they didn't weigh it.

8:26

On land.

8:27

Then he gets into a bunch of other really big musky

8:30

that had been disqualified for all kinds of reasons.

8:32

Is there consensus for that rule? Is like, since

8:34

you aren't on a solid ground, that.

8:37

The boat sinks, the certified.

8:39

The certified scale isn't as accurate.

8:41

That's that's the reason.

8:44

I don't know, but he's pointing out. Imagine

8:46

if you'd killed that fish, what you would have heard about from

8:48

the walleye, from the muskie community,

8:51

which apparently is a you know, musky two point

8:53

zero.

8:54

But if you'd have killed it fifty years

8:56

ago, nobody would have cared, would have said nothing.

8:58

Now it's catched, it's now it's like what you supposed.

9:00

Hsky two point oh?

9:01

Well, just think about all the

9:02

cat.

9:04

And panfish that you'd save by killing

9:07

that fish.

9:07

It's a two point oh catch

9:09

twenty two.

9:11

Yep.

9:14

In the old days, we hadn't name this podcast that two

9:18

point oh catch twenty two.

9:20

Title days one point oh. Now

9:22

it's title Day's two point oh.

9:24

What was your comment?

9:27

Just think about all the chipmunks and

9:29

and uh small mouth and panfish.

9:32

They would have saved by killing that.

9:33

Save a perch killing musky, dont forget ducklings.

9:36

Yeah, little kid toes, stuff like

9:38

that.

9:39

There's that dude up in Canada three

9:42

years ago that got

9:44

smashed by a Walleye and BC tore

9:47

his hand all up.

9:48

Wiley or a musky.

9:49

I'm sorry, musky, yep, musky.

9:53

Yeah, those Walleye anglers just really perked

9:55

up there, like see, we knew that fish was bad.

9:59

We know it wasn't real lazy.

10:01

It's not just for eating Sowa's

10:03

buddy.

10:03

I hear you, man, you got bone. Your grandpa got

10:06

boned by the IGFA.

10:08

Yeah, that's a boomer.

10:09

I don't know what more to say about it.

10:11

What do you want the igf A to.

10:12

Do about it? Though? I send the guy

10:14

something. Yeah, consolation

10:17

lure got away in that land. It's a catch

10:19

twenty two. What are you supposed to do?

10:20

Rules or rules?

10:21

Rules is rules?

10:23

You kill it and you're gonna hear about it from the musky

10:25

community. Two point zero. You

10:29

don't kill it. You can't be in the thing.

10:31

Would you killed it?

10:35

Yeah, I'd have made a video

10:37

about it.

10:38

He'd cut it into stakes.

10:41

I'd have got out my spearfish and k ivy right

10:43

in the top of the head. Now to

10:45

do it not been like sucket musky community.

10:48

For context, I'd like to understand

10:50

catch twenty one and

10:53

catch twenty three. You should come up

10:55

with those.

10:56

It's a real catch twenty three. Catch

10:58

twenty three exists. It's Michael

11:00

Jordan's fishing boat.

11:02

That's right. Yeah,

11:06

yeah, it never gets off.

11:08

Not a musket work on the street.

11:10

Wonder people hearing this?

11:11

Crin first to April.

11:13

Oh, hey, go check out. So we got our live

11:15

tour coming up. Let me pull up the dates.

11:18

We got our live tour.

11:19

Coming up, just

11:23

to remind everybody, where's

11:25

my little thing?

11:25

April? What is it? Twenty second or twenty third?

11:28

To May?

11:29

April twenty third, Mace, Arizona, bear

11:32

with me here April twenty

11:34

four, San Diego, California,

11:36

April twenty five, Anaheim,

11:38

California. April twenty

11:41

seven, Sacramento,

11:43

California. That winds up being a lot

11:45

of California April twenty nine, Salt

11:47

Lake City, April

11:50

thirty, Boise, Idaho,

11:55

May one, Missoula, Montana,

11:57

which is gonna be a riot hometown

12:01

crowd having spent many a night in

12:04

that theater above

12:06

it and in it.

12:09

And blow it with

12:11

your elevator operator, buddy, We used to catch

12:13

pigeons below that thing.

12:16

Scoot and Newton. I'm gonna tell the story of Scoot

12:18

and Newton. May

12:20

second, Spokane, May

12:23

four, Portland, Oregon, Portland,

12:26

Oregon and slow Gin Fizz. If that ain't

12:28

loved, then tell me what is great tun Uh

12:31

huh.

12:35

You know it's a winner When Phil laughs, I

12:38

know it about once a year something

12:41

tis fancy.

12:42

The other day what was it?

12:46

Yeah, there are something caught Philsier.

12:50

That was just a great uh retain impression.

12:53

Uh huh.

12:57

May five, Tacoma. Get

13:00

your tickets. You can go to the

13:02

actual you can go to the meeater

13:04

dot com and you'll find a live events thing and find

13:06

it there. Or you can go to the specific theaters.

13:09

But I didn't just name the specific

13:11

theaters, which makes it very tricky. Type

13:14

go to your computer and type of media, your live you'll find it.

13:17

Come check us out. It's gonna be a ton of fun.

13:19

It's a three act show.

13:21

Bring your wife, you know, I uh

13:24

is a little in the weeds. But when

13:26

we talk about reaching new audiences with the

13:28

podcast. If there's

13:30

gonna there's gotta be like a Venn diagram

13:33

of when Phil laughs, mm

13:35

hmm. We're reaching new audience

13:37

members. I

13:39

don't know if those people be around for a while, might

13:42

pop in see what's going on.

13:43

Like you'd have to just catch one of them to have me walking

13:46

by someone playing it like

13:51

you left your car door open at the gas station

13:53

and you left it on and some guy caught some

13:55

guy like Phil caught a little lick there. All

13:58

right, Yannie, hit it, quick hit.

14:01

If the live tour isn't it enough

14:03

for you, you can come spend If

14:05

that's not enough, Yanny, for you, three days

14:08

with us and a new thing

14:10

we're calling Meat Eater Experiences. We're

14:13

gonna have a lot more details to come, but

14:16

I've been instructured to do a quick hit here about

14:18

this. We're hosting a fishing

14:20

trip in Venice, Louisiana,

14:22

as well as.

14:24

I get some background on that one waterfowl.

14:26

Hunt in Kansas.

14:28

You have some background, I'd like.

14:30

To give some background. Oh yeah, please do the

14:32

last couple.

14:33

Of years when we've been down

14:36

been going down spearfish and on

14:38

spearfish and the oil rigs out

14:41

of you know, coastal Louisiana.

14:44

And I fell into becoming friends

14:46

with Renee, who

14:49

owns Cypress Cove Marina, and

14:54

we got talking about something fun we'd like to do,

14:56

and we're gonna basically, not basically,

14:59

we're gonna take over Cypress Coved Marina.

15:01

Yep.

15:01

So we're doing a thing where he's got a house

15:03

boat, condos, a

15:05

hotel, We're getting

15:08

all the spots. He's got a whole ton

15:10

of charter captains that charter out of his

15:12

marina and friends and stuff. So we're getting

15:14

all the boats, all the lodging, put together

15:17

food plan, and then

15:19

we're gonna have meat eater crew guys

15:22

there and we're doing big fishing party, guys

15:25

and gals, guys and gals, big fishing

15:27

party in shore, offshore

15:30

on guide boats, hanging out

15:32

at night, cooking fish, cleaning fish.

15:34

It's gonna be a good time. Renee is gonna do

15:38

once per group is going to do a big Cajun

15:42

seafood boil, which

15:44

I'm very excited about. He's so I

15:46

like people that are so into doing their type

15:48

of food that when when you meet someone

15:51

that has custom made or had someone

15:53

custom made them, the thing to

15:55

cook their food in you know, it's

15:57

serious and there it's gonna be good. So

16:00

we're gonna get that experience down there. And

16:02

then yeah, the waterfowl Honting in Kansas,

16:05

three different trips between November

16:08

December and uh well

16:11

January first really is

16:13

the last one for that hunt, so uh

16:15

check, go to go to the website. There'll

16:17

be a drop down menu under Mediator

16:19

Experiences and all the details.

16:21

Will be there here shortly.

16:23

You know what I like about the waterfowl part of

16:25

it is that's gonna be the thing I need

16:28

to motivate me to finally get me.

16:29

A power plucker.

16:32

I'm going to have my power plucker sent there,

16:36

know when it's all said and done on and bring that power plucker

16:38

back home.

16:39

It's good idea.

16:40

What's that kind of power plucker I want?

16:42

You know, the one that my brother in law has

16:44

Now, I think it's called the foul foul

16:47

Plucker.

16:47

Isn't it?

16:47

Dude?

16:48

Do you ever be on that guy's website? Nope?

16:51

I got the nosing around there, and my neighbor,

16:53

Pottery pat he after he offered to go haves.

16:55

He's on it with me, But I don't know if I want to like

16:58

want to share. Well, hey, then you know.

17:00

Whatever, then I gotta go looking for it over

17:03

his house.

17:04

So I mean, you guys live like fifty

17:06

yards apart.

17:07

It's not like.

17:07

Sharing being me and powdered pad

17:10

or to share everything.

17:10

Anyway.

17:11

It's I've told you where I've seen these things

17:13

set up. Eventually there's a shack that

17:16

gets built around them.

17:17

Kahl was saying, because because the

17:19

feather mate, the feather management so much.

17:22

Eventually just yeah,

17:24

you kind of dig it out.

17:25

Yeah, you're like, boy, it doesn't really work in

17:28

the garage all the time.

17:30

That's a creeping cost if you start out

17:32

with a power plucker and then you end up with a building.

17:35

Yeah, and then you have a house that's built around well,

17:37

yeah exactly.

17:38

I think it could be modified a little

17:40

bit. They're not cheap. I'm looking at it right now on

17:43

the orbist site. There's seven hundred and thirty bucks.

17:45

Yeah, but they get for him. But it

17:48

makes it pretty duck well when you do

17:50

it right, you read the that guy

17:52

is so serious. People

17:54

place the order with that guy. And also,

17:57

like you go place the order, all of a sudden your

17:59

phone rings. He's calling you

18:03

to make sure that you're serious about this purchase.

18:05

To be like, well, I saw you bought one

18:07

of the pluckers. Here's the deal, right,

18:12

let's work together.

18:13

Uh, Cal, I could see that there could be

18:15

some feather build up, you know,

18:17

I mean especially if you I mean if you're processing you

18:20

know, at fifty a day.

18:22

But I mean we processed almost

18:25

twenty birds and we've basically

18:27

filled up a shot full canister

18:30

shot back in that you know, two hour

18:32

period and it was full, like you couldn't really

18:34

done too many more without dumping it.

18:36

But it worked, said two hours for twenty

18:38

birds.

18:40

Yeah, I mean I'm guessing. I mean we had kids

18:42

there that are, you know, helping and messing around,

18:45

but I mean, yeah, the keys,

18:47

it's got to be a dry bird.

18:49

Well, you gotta read more. I started reading more

18:51

than you read.

18:52

Yeah, I just send that.

18:53

Guy a picture of my thumb, say

18:55

like, is it going to be better

18:57

than this?

18:59

I do better, but we'll do faster. That's

19:02

one hundred percent sure, petition

19:05

buddy, I want.

19:05

One of those things still.

19:06

Man, I'm

19:09

gonna have it sent there so when we're doing our when

19:12

we're doing our mediator experiences deal,

19:14

we can people can power.

19:15

Pluck totally go

19:17

home with a bunch of birds.

19:18

Hopefully you got more to say.

19:20

No, I think that's uh, that's good

19:22

for it.

19:23

Off.

19:24

Quick hit spots are available to the general

19:26

public starting the opening day of bear season.

19:30

And turkey season in

19:32

Pennsylvania.

19:35

April fifteen.

19:36

Isn't that? What's tax day? Yep?

19:38

That's it?

19:39

Oh okay, so when you go to either

19:41

send your money in or file

19:44

for your money.

19:45

Who was it that had a horse named

19:47

Iris because she was born on

19:51

April fifteenth? You remember that?

19:53

No, I thought that was a

19:55

cute ir s.

19:56

Yeah, April

19:58

fifteen spotsor availed again. We

20:02

got our trip fishing

20:05

Louisiana in shore. Offshore,

20:08

you can even go jug and catfish.

20:11

Yeah, listen, man, I would have gone way deeper,

20:13

but I was asked to do a quick hit. But yeah,

20:15

we got all kinds of things we can talk about

20:17

for this trip or.

20:19

Or ducks and geese and Kansas. Yeah,

20:21

and every night there's gonna be a long We're gonna give

20:24

a long.

20:24

Lecture about something.

20:28

Every dight.

20:29

I'm gonna read this Musky Manifesto with

20:31

everybody present.

20:34

That's right, and that's optional. If you don't

20:36

want to stay for that. You can just go get some rest because

20:38

the next day is going to be another big day of hunting

20:40

or fish.

20:40

And so there's a thing we spent a lot of time

20:43

on a uh

20:45

something blowing up out a

20:47

blow I don't know, blowing up that might be over selling

20:50

it. A problem in Wisconsin

20:52

that is just disconcerting to me. Unbeknownst

20:55

to me for my whole life, I had no idea you can't

20:58

spear a Northern pike in wiscon which

21:00

to me seems like the pike spirit. If you'd

21:02

have said to me before

21:04

I found this out, if you said to me, what is the pike

21:06

spear in the state in America? I would have just

21:09

said, Eh, Wisconsin is

21:11

there?

21:11

Is it because of Musky two

21:13

point zero?

21:14

Is that what they don't who's driving it right now?

21:17

Yes, that's what I thought.

21:18

I don't know who is driving it. Prior to Muski

21:20

two point oh, you

21:23

cannot spear a Northern pike in Wisconsin.

21:25

You can spare a sturgeon in Wisconsin. Can't

21:29

spear a Northern pike Why

21:33

because they can't trust

21:36

one. They think pike spears will get

21:38

all the Biggins and

21:41

they think that a pike spearer cannot

21:44

tell the difference between a northy in

21:47

a muscle lunch man.

21:49

It's like looking into an aquarium

21:52

at the zoo.

21:52

He can you can trust Americans. You

21:54

can trust Americans to tell the difference between

21:57

a button buck and a spike. You

22:00

can trust Americans to tell if a deer has

22:02

three times on one side. You

22:05

can trust an American to tell a

22:09

hen pintail from a drake

22:11

pintail in the early

22:13

season when

22:15

they don't have their breeding plumage.

22:19

You can tell Americans how to tell a

22:22

hen pheasant from a rooster

22:24

pheasant. You can trust Americans

22:26

how to catch a

22:30

pike and not mistakenly, or

22:32

catch a muskie and not mistake it for

22:34

a pike.

22:36

What else do you trust Americans to do?

22:38

I think I think you know fast moving waterfowls.

22:41

Fantastic example.

22:43

For sure, you brought up hen versus rooster pheasant.

22:45

How about a sharp tail and a hen pheasant

22:47

when they get up into the city.

22:48

You can trust an American to tell

22:51

the difference between a

22:53

sharp tail hen and

22:55

a hen pheasant. To drab colored

22:58

brown birds with a pointy tail, the sun

23:01

in the bright sun. There's no prohibition on hunting

23:03

them in the bright sun. Far from it, no

23:05

prohibition against walking into the sun. What

23:08

else can you trust Americans?

23:10

Nothing?

23:10

You can trus men's room from the women's room.

23:12

You can trust Americans tell the men's well you used

23:14

to.

23:15

Yeah, you can trust Americans

23:17

to not shoot a black bearsyle

23:19

with cubs. You can trust Americans

23:22

to identify a male mountain

23:24

goat. But apparently you

23:26

cannot trust Americans to not spear

23:28

muskies while spear and pike. Therefore, the entire

23:31

state of Wisconsin can't go pike

23:33

spearing. As we explained

23:35

in the past episode, they put it to Wisconsin

23:39

has this kind of cool but widely

23:43

widely celebrated and widely displot

23:46

despised.

23:48

Way that you.

23:49

Can get game loss change. What's it called

23:51

calendar? You remember the advisory panel?

23:54

Oh?

23:54

Yeah, the regional like Pat

23:56

Dirkins always talking about, and yeah,

23:58

regional advisor or yeah, there's

24:01

an acronym, but it's a county

24:03

by county or region by region citizens

24:06

Advisory Council.

24:07

So if you want to get a game a long Wisconsin

24:09

change, you can bring it to the citizen's advisory

24:11

panel. Like I'm going to get in there heavy duty

24:13

as a non resident because they're trying to move

24:18

through the Citizens' Advisory Panel process.

24:20

They're trying to move youth turkey in Wisconsin

24:23

from two days to four days, which

24:26

I firmly support, and the

24:28

Wisconsin public supports that. What the Wisconsin

24:31

public is uneasy about is youth deer

24:33

going from two days to four days, but they're supportive

24:36

of it going four days for turkey.

24:38

There's a lot of people that gripe about those youth

24:40

hunting seasons.

24:41

I don't understand. Well, if I didn't have kids, i'd hate

24:43

them.

24:43

Well, I was staying there to day. If we had a

24:45

youth elk, I was saying, I would have never gotten the vast

24:47

ectomy. I

24:50

said that on the show.

24:52

As a man with no children. Here in Gallason

24:54

County, here we go, I pay out the nose

24:56

for your kids' education already.

24:59

I don't know.

24:59

I don't know why they also need

25:01

to beat me out into the field.

25:04

Do you know what I mean?

25:05

Pick one or the other.

25:06

How's that You've had plenty opportunity

25:09

at this point in your life. Those kids need

25:11

a little opportunity to.

25:12

Okay, help me out here.

25:18

Whoa I got my glasses on. Who

25:23

can help me out finding this?

25:26

Well?

25:26

How did the vote break?

25:27

So they put it to the citizens Advisory Panel

25:29

and it got shot down kind of.

25:33

They said, do you support pike spearing, and

25:35

how in the world could

25:39

someone say

25:41

no?

25:41

But here's what happened.

25:45

They had a nearly

25:47

even vote of yes no,

25:49

and you had the option to say no opinion,

25:55

okay, which was so close

25:57

that it actually advanced to the Conservation

26:01

the Conservation Congress in Wisconsin

26:04

after a somewhat anemic public

26:06

input, meaning evenly

26:10

broke yes no. I think it was slightly

26:13

no. But then there's all these people that copped

26:15

out with a no opinion. So

26:17

then it goes to the Conservation Congress, and the Conservation

26:20

Congress in Wisconsin says thirty

26:22

five to twenty eight, Yes, we

26:25

want a pike speerience

26:27

season. But

26:32

as this guy puts it, the DNR Wisconsin's

26:35

now dragging their feet. This

26:42

guy that writes in about it wrote

26:45

this letter. Myself

26:47

and the two thousand other individuals

26:50

I represent as part of the Wisconsin

26:52

Dark House Angling Association

26:55

and the Powerful Fish

26:57

Decoy Association National,

27:01

The Powerful National Fish Decoy Association

27:04

are going to continue the fight. So

27:10

it's like it's it's a pot boiler

27:14

in Wisconsin.

27:15

Well, yeah, I mean, what what

27:17

is the risk? Like, are

27:19

you aware of any long

27:23

studies that examine the

27:25

abuse of overtake by spear

27:28

fishermen during the ice season, like

27:31

a guy committed to a fish shack

27:33

versus six tip

27:35

ups?

27:36

Yeah, Like that's what I was going to say, Like I've

27:38

I've speared pike and you're you're not out

27:41

fishing. The guy's got a whole set of tip ups

27:43

out like no way, yeah, and you're sitting

27:45

there and like,

27:48

yeah, maybe you're targeting bigger

27:50

pike.

27:51

But I'm not aware of any studies,

27:53

and I could see an argument for going to lake

27:55

by lake management. Yeah, well yeah, of course,

27:58

depending on you know, the population status of

28:00

muskies or the presence even of muskies in

28:02

a given lake.

28:04

Yeah, that'd be a great compromise. Of

28:06

course if there's like big treasure. You know, what

28:08

was the strain of muskies also quad

28:11

for strain. So he

28:14

as when the guy or the guy that we

28:16

communicate about this issue, when he wrote his letter

28:18

being like, hey, what gives the

28:22

Conservation Congress supported and

28:24

advanced it. How come Noah movement. The

28:27

department came back to him. Department, the

28:29

department, this is the this is the

28:31

Fishing Game Department Wisconsin d and

28:33

R coming back to him. The

28:36

Department does not plan to advance

28:38

this proposal as a d

28:40

n R rule change. Question spearing

28:43

Northern Pike through the ice may

28:46

raise user conflicts with other

28:48

ice fishers.

28:51

Since I may not right,

28:54

I mean sorry, go ahead.

28:56

Since implementation of a rule

28:58

change in nineteen nine twenty three that eliminated

29:02

the January and February spearing

29:04

seasons on the Monominee in Brule Rivers,

29:07

no winter spearing has been allowed

29:10

in Wisconsin, with the exception

29:12

of ice spearing on Lake Superior. Spearing

29:16

can be selective for the largest

29:19

pike in the population a

29:22

lot of maize and cans.

29:25

So, if I get that argument correctly, he's saying

29:27

that because spearfishing is so selective

29:30

of the largest pike, then it could have negative population

29:33

consequences.

29:34

Now it's other guys, bitch, and that they're going to spear

29:36

all the big pike.

29:37

Yeah, that's the implication, right.

29:38

It's like in your four foot

29:41

chunk of a how many acre lake,

29:45

your little window that you see you're going to be selective

29:48

within that four foot chunk out of one

29:50

hundred and fifty eight acres.

29:51

But other states allow the spearing of northern

29:53

pike. Oh yeah, have we seen across the

29:55

northern tier? Have we seen a truncation of the size

29:58

distribution in lakes where spearing

30:00

northern pike is allowed.

30:01

I think the problem with that is it's been historically

30:05

it's just always been historically present. But what I

30:07

can tell you can study the dickens out of is

30:09

the fact that there ain't nobody out spearing pike. Yeah,

30:12

a little bit. It's like a it's not

30:14

hurting anything. Yeah, he goes

30:16

on, the department goes on. There is also concern

30:19

with spearers mistaking muske

30:21

Lunge for

30:23

Northern pike on water bodies. We're

30:25

both Congeners.

30:27

What's that mean? Same genus?

30:29

We're both congenders, reside

30:31

Congeners.

30:33

That's what that means. Con generics. Yeah, good

30:35

thing you're here.

30:36

That's great.

30:37

Yeah, congeners.

30:39

Congeners are congenerics. Yeah, same

30:41

genus ESOCHS E S O X.

30:43

I'm gonna start saying that all the

30:47

time all the time.

30:50

Sometimes I get a word like that to write it on my hand

30:52

for a few days and then then I

30:54

got it.

30:55

Then I got it down.

30:57

While the public input for the twenty twenty

30:59

three advice requestion was fairly

31:01

close, more people did not support this

31:03

proposal, with three thousand,

31:05

one hundred and forty three in favor and

31:08

three thousand, three hundred and fifty five opposed.

31:13

We just don't govern that way.

31:17

You know. It's a buddy of mine.

31:21

He's a retired railroader out of Missoula, loves

31:24

spear and pike has only

31:26

to my knowledge, speared maybe a handful

31:29

in many, many seasons. Because

31:31

he is actively selecting

31:33

for a huge pike. He

31:36

has one pike mounted on

31:39

his wall in his house, and it

31:41

does not matter if you've been through that door a

31:43

thousand times or for the very first

31:45

time. Eventually

31:47

he'll be like, did you see

31:49

the pike? And you're like, yep, gam

31:51

it's still.

31:52

There, Like how did he

31:54

get that one? With a spirit?

31:55

Yep, spearin through the ice. But he's like, he

31:59

would be the and this is an invasive

32:01

species in this lake. It's it's the lake

32:03

that you can underwaters

32:05

spearfish for in western Montana.

32:09

He would be he would raise Holy hell if anybody

32:13

decided to eradicate

32:15

the pike from that system because he loves that species

32:18

so much. So that's just kind of like a random

32:21

selection of dark house

32:23

spearfishermen. They're

32:27

not or this particular person,

32:29

right, he's letting every

32:32

fish go. Yeah, and he's up

32:34

there all the time. And like the economic impacts

32:36

that we always talk about people who do stuff

32:39

like this, right, it's

32:42

it's a weird thing. The other thing that is

32:44

like worth pointing out

32:46

here that's kind of a nowhere type

32:49

of deal is like you want to talk to about people

32:51

who discuss climate change and

32:54

the impacts of that, talk to spearfishermen.

32:57

I'm sorry, ice fisherman, ice anglers.

33:00

Yeah, the catch is going

33:02

down. They didn't ice fish this year

33:04

the amount of days, right, they didn't. They didn't get

33:06

out at all. But that could be a

33:08

reason for the d NR to be like, well, why would

33:10

we put in the expense of rewriting the rags,

33:13

uh for something that's

33:15

trending downward anyway?

33:18

Uh, Yeah, I'm the idea on that.

33:20

Like, I grew up in big time pike country

33:22

in Michigan.

33:23

We fished. That was our primary ice. Now one of

33:25

our primary ice.

33:26

Is that well, let me put this way, that was our only

33:28

ice, big game fish that we concentrated

33:31

on. You could spear, you could tip

33:33

up, and you want to see some bloody ice, go

33:37

out there on a big tip up day. If

33:40

you were out for numbers, running

33:43

tip ups is going to give you bigger numbers of fish.

33:45

Well we're weren't you saying that your

33:48

your lake as a kid had a bunch of dead

33:51

pike all over during the summertime, like

33:53

people would kill them and leave them.

33:55

Is that right?

33:56

Yeah, you see a lot of that, right, But that's

33:58

and that's after the bass. Oh when the

34:00

lake shore is like littered with fish

34:04

that got let go with

34:06

a nightcrawler and its anus.

34:19

Let's talk about mercury and fish from sure.

34:21

Okay.

34:23

The reason I want to talk about mercury and fish is one

34:26

we have a colleague of beloved colleague who he

34:28

claims that have been mercury poisoned. I

34:31

have been eating fish most

34:34

of my life, and waters that carry a

34:36

health advisory, state health advisories.

34:40

I lived for a while.

34:43

In Seattle, and we would have people

34:46

not eat the perch we caught because

34:49

they knew that those fish had a health advisory.

34:55

People are aware of it.

34:58

There was just a recently an article in the New York Times

35:00

about you

35:02

probably saw this. If

35:05

we're cutting if we've been so successful

35:08

in cutting mercury admit what's

35:10

the word, not admissions, submission emissions,

35:13

mercury emissions. If we've been so successful

35:16

curbing mercury emissions, why

35:19

do tuna still

35:22

have mercury in them?

35:25

It takes a very long time for mercury

35:27

to leave the environment. It

35:29

can be actually a bigger problem in

35:31

freshwater systems than offshore,

35:33

because no

35:35

one's taking anything out of stink of remote

35:38

lakes in Canada, for example, Atmospheric

35:41

deposition of mercury puts mercury

35:43

in that water. It's

35:46

taken up by algae,

35:48

other phytoplankton. It enters the food

35:50

chain that way, it works its way up into

35:53

say, let's say walleye are the top predator

35:55

in a given lake. Then

35:58

if very very few people are

36:01

fishing that lake, harvesting fish

36:03

out of that lake, the mercury never leaves.

36:05

That's how the mercury has to be removed.

36:08

Pretty much. It's got a very long half ton,

36:11

it's got a very long half life,

36:13

and so it just stays in the system.

36:16

And it's actually the lakes that are fished harder

36:18

that tend to have lower mercury.

36:22

And like you're hauling the mercury

36:24

out when you haul fish way, it's.

36:26

Them get them big muskies out of there.

36:28

There's there's no once it's in

36:30

the food web. I mean, there's not really any mitigation

36:33

that can be done. It's not like you can spray

36:35

a lake.

36:36

And where's

36:38

it all coming from in the first place? Does industrial

36:40

pollution?

36:41

Yeah, right, fossil fuels too.

36:43

Well, how are they curbing?

36:44

I got a ton of questions about it now.

36:46

I thought mercury was so heavy

36:49

that it just works its way.

36:51

Down in its elemental form.

36:53

It's it's super dense, right, But

36:56

the mercury that's dangerous to animals

36:59

from a toxicity standpoint is the methylated

37:01

form. Uh so, it's

37:03

it's got a carbon and a couple of hydrogens

37:06

on it. The density of that

37:08

molecule I don't know off the top of my head. But it's

37:10

not like the silver liquid you're thinking

37:13

of in a in a thermode. The fun stuff, the fun

37:15

stuff, Yeah, yeah, that you probably played with that

37:17

you and I both so I were bald played

37:19

with as kids in elementary

37:21

school. No, that stuff has gone.

37:26

How have we slowed emissions?

37:29

We haven't slowed fossil fuel consumption.

37:32

Well, depending on who you mean by we, we have

37:35

slowed fossil fuel consumption as global

37:37

you globally know. How

37:39

have we slowed the emission of mercury?

37:41

It's generally it's about uh, scrubbing

37:45

procedures when those fossil

37:47

fuel, when that that that gas is being

37:49

emitted from coal burning powers. So want to hear

37:51

about clean coal or whatever? Is that

37:53

different? Uh? No, it's you're

37:55

on the right track. Yeah, although we're hearing less

37:57

about clean coal. But yeah,

38:00

but that would be scrubbed where the emissions are scrubbed

38:03

exactly, and mercury is part of that. Okay, yep.

38:05

And then they use mercury in mining applications.

38:08

It's out of my pay grade.

38:09

Okay, that's that's not

38:12

making its way. I mean they use mercury

38:14

in like, you know, like leech mining. Okay,

38:17

But I don't know if that gets into the water system, because

38:19

everybody talks about the atmospheric mercury

38:21

that shuts into your.

38:22

Fish yeap, And depending

38:25

on the fish, it could be both. It could be that that

38:27

point source. You know, if you're talking

38:29

about a fish that's in an estuary or

38:31

close to shore, like bluefin tuna,

38:33

for example, you brought up tuna. Bluefin

38:35

tuna have elevated mercury. Often

38:39

they're apex predators. They're

38:41

eating a lot of fish

38:44

that are associated with shore, that are

38:46

living in rivers and systems that might

38:48

be influenced by a

38:50

single factory or something up

38:53

upstream. But then you have fish that never

38:55

come close to shore, like blue

38:57

marlin, for example, that live in

39:00

the blue water pelagic environment

39:02

for their entire life. The mercury

39:04

that's in those animals is just from non

39:06

point source, from atmospheric deposition coming

39:09

down in the rain.

39:10

An atmospheric deposition is

39:13

global, correct. I mean, you could go to

39:15

the remotest corner of the Indian Ocean

39:18

and mercury rains down

39:21

in that.

39:22

You'd find a Budweiser bottle, a food line

39:25

bag, and some microplastics,

39:27

and there'd be mercury there, got it, But

39:30

not in.

39:30

The concentration right of like the Great

39:32

Lakes and its heyday of the industrial

39:35

output of the Industrial Revolution right.

39:38

Well, in general, since the nineteen seventies,

39:42

mercury deposition worldwide has gone

39:44

down largely as

39:46

a result of the environmental movement in North America

39:49

in that time. And again a

39:51

little out of my depth here, but we

39:54

as a country put pressure on other countries

39:57

to be more environmentally responsible

40:00

the emissions and the burning

40:02

of fossil fuels, and that lowers atmospheric

40:05

deposition of mercury too. Got it.

40:09

So when will do you picture if

40:11

current practices continue, Is

40:14

there a day in which all of a sudden you notice that

40:16

there's no more health advisories on the

40:18

consumption of wildfish,

40:22

probably.

40:23

Out of the lifetime of everyone

40:25

in this room. Unfortunately, that's my guess.

40:27

You take that long, yeah, because you

40:30

have some places where there's just super high

40:32

concentrations, and you have some species

40:35

that are just notorious notorious

40:37

for high mercury content. But

40:40

we'll see, so you.

40:42

Can put less. Like the fact that

40:44

we're putting less of it out there is

40:47

not being represented in what we're seeing

40:49

when we sample fish.

40:50

That's fair to say. No, it is being represented,

40:53

because.

40:54

So I'm saying we're not seeing, like

40:56

I said with this article's point about tuna,

40:58

we're putting less of it in the sure, but we're

41:00

not yet seeing less of it in our fish.

41:03

Oh, I see. Well, So,

41:05

first of all, I'll say that in order to observe

41:07

a decline in a toxic kint like

41:09

mercury, you have to have a

41:12

really long time series of information.

41:14

So, in other words,

41:17

in order to observe that decline, you'd have to have the

41:19

data going back to, say, the nineteen seventies.

41:22

I'm not a tuna guy. I love eating tuna.

41:24

I'm not aware of what sort of long term

41:26

data sets there are for tuna muscle. And

41:29

we keep saying tuna, but there's all these species in all

41:31

these different environments.

41:34

So I was part of a study a couple of years

41:36

ago where we did have a long term data set

41:38

for blue marlin muscle that went back to the nineteen

41:40

seventies, and we did observe.

41:42

DeLine like who was collecked in that?

41:43

Like? How? Yeah, good question. So the

41:46

federal government, the National Marine Fishery Service

41:49

otherwise known as Noah Fisheries, has

41:51

a laboratory in Beaufort, North Carolina, where I live,

41:53

and there were scientists there and at

41:55

the Duke University Marine Lab also

41:58

in Beaufort, that began

42:00

collecting muscle tissue from

42:03

blue marlin in the nineteen seventies

42:05

in from in fact,

42:08

the Big Rock Blue Marlin Tournament, which is something that

42:10

you've covered on this podcast. Yeah,

42:12

sopist opportunistic sampling

42:15

of muscle taken

42:17

from the animals that were landed in that tournament,

42:20

and in the seventies also animals that were

42:22

landed willy nilly and you

42:24

know, just brought to shore or maybe in

42:26

other tournaments. So there was a we had

42:29

they analyzed those data. Then It's

42:31

not like we had crusty chunks

42:33

of marlin. Maybe they were drying

42:35

it or something. Okay, yeah, no, they analyzed

42:38

those data then, uh, and then

42:40

we had there

42:42

was a gap of twenty

42:45

five years. And then in the late nineties, scientists

42:48

at that same lab, the Noah Lab no Officieri's

42:50

Lab in Beaufort began collecting

42:53

muscle again from blue marlin in the Big

42:55

Rock Tournament. The

42:59

NC State University Lab where I went

43:01

to graduate school in Morhead City, North Carolina,

43:03

took over that sampling in

43:07

the early two thousands and created

43:09

a long term data set. I think the

43:11

paper. The data in the paper went up to maybe twenty

43:14

twenty two, So

43:16

that's what for thirty

43:18

year, forty year, fifty year

43:20

time series. Yeah, of blue

43:23

marlin muscle, and there was a

43:25

market decline in the content of total

43:27

mercury and methyl mercury

43:30

in that muscle from the nineteen seventies to

43:32

present day. Oh my god,

43:34

good news, good news. And the other good

43:37

news is huh for blue marlin

43:39

in particular, for some reason, I

43:41

don't know if I have a good speculation here, but for some

43:44

reason, blue marlin

43:46

are special in that most of the

43:48

mercury in their muscle tissue is

43:50

not the nasty stuff, the methylated

43:52

form. For most fish, when they're forming

43:55

FDA EPR or forming consumption advisories,

43:57

they're sampling the muscle for total mercury. It's much

43:59

easier year to run a sample for total mercury

44:01

and the muscle tissue. They're coming up

44:03

with an advisory at three parts per million or five

44:05

parts per million or whatever, just based on that total

44:08

mercury number, because they're assuming

44:10

that all of that mercury is methyl

44:12

mercury, the nasty stuff. That's

44:15

true for most fish, most

44:17

of the total mercury is the methal

44:19

form, but in blue marlin it's a fraction of

44:21

the total, which is really good from a from the

44:23

standpoint of consumption. Now, I'm

44:26

not hoping that people are going to go out and start

44:29

exactly that stocks over fished

44:32

and apex preaders. We don't want to take a lot of them out

44:34

of the system anyway. But but you

44:36

could, you could eat blue marlin.

44:38

From a safety standpoint, very few

44:40

of the samples in our study flirted

44:43

with the consumption advisory.

44:45

Well, I mean, Steve will tell you

44:47

what you can and can't eat on

44:49

a fisheries side of things.

44:51

From an authority standpoint.

44:54

Steve, Well, what do you mean, I

44:56

mean, you're just going to eat it?

44:57

Yeah, Well, I will tell you my favorite quote, which

44:59

I've said thousand times. Me and Yanni were with

45:01

a friend of ours that likes to fish

45:04

off flattheads. Yeah,

45:07

and when we asked him about his

45:09

feeling about eating all those flattheads, he

45:11

said, if I eat so, if I catch and eat so many

45:14

big flattheads that it kills me, I win.

45:17

So somewhat fatalistic viewpoint, yeah,

45:21

markedly so.

45:22

But I have not.

45:23

I have never.

45:27

I've never changed my fish consumption behavior

45:29

because of health advisories. But it nags

45:32

in the back of my head the same way when

45:34

I'm eating deer meat,

45:37

even if I had to test it, if I'm eating deer

45:39

meat from areas that has like CWD,

45:43

it is always in.

45:44

The back of my head. So have you

45:46

been tested for mercury? No,

45:49

no intention to do so.

45:50

No.

45:50

I would definitely do it. If you got a kit right

45:52

now, I would do it right now a

45:55

kit.

45:55

Yeah, not. Somebody of the bag could

45:58

never.

45:58

Be in a home test for fish

46:00

meat you bring home.

46:02

Uh no, not other

46:04

than from a culinary standpoint.

46:06

It's a centrifuge, Like, don't isn't

46:08

that what you do? You like put your blood samples

46:10

in a centerfuge and spin them up

46:12

and then it separates.

46:14

I left my medical career behind a long

46:16

time ago, but I know a guy in

46:18

Morehead City who had blood

46:20

drawn explicitly for a mercury

46:23

test because he was wondering. He's

46:25

like, man, I eat a lot of fish

46:28

passed with flying colors. That's

46:30

good to hear, that's what they were doing.

46:32

I'm gonna text our doctor and we can get

46:35

well.

46:35

Recently I texted so recently, Yanni

46:38

text. We were worried we had low tea.

46:42

We asked so Yanni

46:45

sent a note to our doctor wonder about

46:47

his tea, And then a couple yes later, I have to

46:49

send her a note wonder about my tea.

46:51

And she's like, and I caught her breaking

46:53

the hippocratic oath because

46:57

she said, are you guys sitting around

47:00

talking about testosterone?

47:01

And I was like, who exactly? Who

47:04

exactly? Referring to because

47:06

I was under the depression.

47:07

This is all very secret, isn't

47:12

the hippocratical do no harm?

47:14

That's nothing.

47:15

You're thinking people's

47:18

secrets, patient doctor confidence. Yeah,

47:20

that's what she broke.

47:22

Cracks who guys about Steve

47:25

is Michigan or eats

47:27

every single fish? And I think like one

47:29

of the more thorough fish

47:31

consumption advisories comes out of the

47:34

state of Michigan. It seems like that's

47:36

the state that has put the most work into

47:39

and it's based off of like the Minton state. So

47:43

it's a Michigan portion, So

47:45

you put your hand up and that represents your

47:47

fish full. And then the quantity

47:50

based off of your weight and size

47:54

is like you can have a thumb

47:56

sized portion once

47:58

a week, or you can have a palm

48:01

size portion once a month.

48:02

Yeah.

48:03

I've always Yeah, that's made me chuckle.

48:05

The in

48:07

Lake Washington in Seattle.

48:11

I don't know what it is now, but for a while the perch the

48:13

fish advisor is very specific where

48:16

they would even get into sizes of fish, meaning

48:19

that an example would be there

48:22

was no restriction or what not

48:24

restrictions out the word. There's no advisory

48:27

on perch under twelve inches yep,

48:29

but perch over twelve inches carried

48:32

a health advisory.

48:33

Yeah, and they do it differently for children,

48:36

men, pregnant women. Montana

48:39

has some real specific like size

48:41

based advisories.

48:43

Steve, would you feed a pregnant woman

48:45

mercury filled fish.

48:48

Along with not?

48:49

Would not?

48:50

Would? I? I don't know, because

48:55

here's the thing about it. Here's I don't want to spend

48:57

all over I want to talk about alternative energy.

49:03

Here's the thing about it.

49:05

You know, if you're a fisherman, everything you

49:08

know, if you if you're a fisherman and you dig into your rags,

49:10

you're seeing the health advisories. But

49:12

when you go to the grocery store and buy fish, you're

49:16

just not that would all carry a

49:18

health advisory as well.

49:20

You've seen a lot of fresh

49:22

I'm actually asking a lot of fresh caught wild walleye

49:24

at the grocery store.

49:25

No, well, there's a there's a wild walleye

49:28

commercial fishery in Ontario.

49:31

Yeah, so when

49:34

you go and buy that, or when you go

49:36

to a perch fry on Friday

49:38

night in Michigan, you're not presented

49:41

with the health advisory information. But if

49:43

you're a fisherman, it's you get your nose

49:45

rubbed in it. So I'm like, I feel like the whole

49:48

So for people to think that this is a thing happening

49:50

to fishermen, it's a thing happening to people

49:52

that go to sushi restaurants.

49:55

Yeah, so yeah, what's

49:57

yours? What do you want me? Do you want it on the

49:59

menu?

50:00

No, I'm saying that this

50:02

is this isn't the thing about. This isn't a thing

50:04

for people to fish. This is a thing

50:06

for people that eat fish.

50:07

Sure, and

50:10

I I just got this thing. There's this organization

50:12

that does like fish.

50:13

They do fish consumption estimates twenty five

50:15

years, fifty years down the road and fish. They

50:17

expect fish consumption to go up

50:20

globally. So

50:22

it's not like people that it's like,

50:24

this is what we're talking about for people that go and catch

50:27

a waho. It's people that eat

50:29

a wahoo.

50:30

Yep. So I guess we need to continue to

50:32

reduce emissions. Ye take that, keep that mercury

50:34

level down.

50:34

But people be like, oh, you fish,

50:37

you must eat a lot of mercury. It's

50:39

like you go out to

50:41

eat with your wife, you

50:43

must eat a lot of mercury.

50:46

I wonder if, in general, there's a presumption that people

50:49

who fish or buy a fishing license are

50:51

eating more fish than people who are going to the

50:53

grocery store to get that fish.

50:54

I think so, dude, if you're a big

50:57

if you love sushi and you're going out

50:59

once week and eating biggics,

51:03

the kind of stuff that people go to sushi

51:05

restaurants to eat, you're pounding a

51:08

lot of mercury compared.

51:09

To some dude that thumps a cup of wall I know.

51:11

And then trout.

51:13

I mean, I hate to play in Steve's

51:15

hand here, but the think of the amount of catch and release

51:19

trout fishermen. We all know that the

51:21

only fish that they're eating are coming

51:24

from the grocery store.

51:26

Yeah, they're just not.

51:28

They're getting their mercury from

51:30

down at I don't know

51:32

the sushi joint. I can't name our old sushi joint.

51:35

They got enough. Just as

51:37

as one example, I think if I

51:40

didn't get fish from

51:42

you guys or

51:44

my in laws from both Fort North

51:47

Carolina when they bring us some shrimp, we

51:49

wouldn't really eat fishkill.

51:51

We just don't. I don't, I don't,

51:54

but I don't like don't. Yeah,

51:57

to Brendan's point, I don't know the

51:59

light trying to see

52:05

you know, I just don't buy a lot of fish.

52:08

I'm with you, honest, like,

52:11

dude, we eat way more like.

52:13

Oh listen, I'm an outlier magnitude.

52:18

All right, we're gonna not move

52:21

on to where you're.

52:21

Actually an expert. Okay,

52:24

but I appreciate you. You just dragging you into

52:26

this.

52:26

Oh go ahead, Sorry, I just I'm like,

52:28

I was straining my brain to try to figure out

52:30

the last fish that

52:33

I bought at a grocery store, and

52:37

it has to get like further divided because

52:39

it's like, the only fish I've purchased at

52:41

a grocery store is bait

52:43

to go catch other fish with.

52:45

I would never buy it at a grocery store. In fact, there's

52:47

no way smell Nope, I

52:50

mean, oh yes, what you bought right. I'll

52:52

eat it all day long in restaurants, but I

52:54

would never buy it at a store to prepare

52:56

it at home because I'm home. I just eat it out of my freezer.

52:59

But if I go to it and there's fish, I'm probably

53:01

getting the fish.

53:04

Okay, back on track. Sorry.

53:05

Brendan Runny is a marine scientist

53:08

of Nature Conservancy,

53:13

and Krin's been really wanting to get him on because we've

53:15

been wanting to talk about offshore alternative

53:18

energy development and what it might mean for

53:21

fish, which led to a broader conversation about

53:23

where I wanted to have that

53:25

discussion as a sort of as.

53:28

A example.

53:31

Of the opportunities,

53:34

challenges compromises around

53:37

alternative energy development, which

53:40

comes at a cost.

53:42

Fair all energy

53:44

development comes at a cost, comes at a cost.

53:46

Now, I want to lay out something that I said. I'm going to

53:48

tell you something I said on previous episodes on

53:51

a previous episode when we talked about this,

53:53

and then I'm gonna let you run.

53:54

But I just want to tee this up.

53:59

If I was the emperor of the world, Nope.

54:02

If I was the emperor of the.

54:03

Country, the

54:05

emperor everybody.

54:07

If I was in charge of America. If I was solely in

54:09

charge with America of America and

54:15

my people came to me and said, he,

54:18

here's our plan on developing

54:22

currently undeveloped landscapes

54:26

offshore. On shore, here's

54:28

our plan to take currently undeveloped landscapes

54:31

and develop them for alternative energy

54:33

in order to combat

54:37

climate change. I

54:39

would say, Man, here's why

54:41

I'm not into it. I'm

54:44

not into it because I fear that

54:46

we're going to make these changes, these

54:49

changes will not be enough to

54:53

counteract what's

54:55

happening on the Indian subcontinent

54:58

in China and RU show. Okay,

55:02

we will see no net

55:05

decrease in fossil fuel

55:07

consumption, and we will have

55:09

burnt up our

55:12

biggest asset, which

55:14

is our wildlife habitat. So

55:16

we'll sit. We'll have destroyed a bunch of wildlife

55:18

habitat and

55:21

seeing no difference in.

55:26

Global average temperatures. Okay,

55:30

now you go. Yeah, so a couple of

55:32

things. So we're

55:34

in a climate crisis, fair.

55:39

Yes, Well, yeah we're

55:41

seeing.

55:41

Yes, if you're a Michigan

55:44

ice fisherman, hell yeah.

55:45

We're seeing. We're seeing annual

55:48

increases.

55:50

And now I'm not I don't I don't want to go back like what they

55:52

do where they try to go back a thousand years because we just

55:54

weren't measuring temperature the same. But in the

55:56

modern era with with how

55:58

we measure temperature now, we are seeing

56:01

increases, and there's some little blips and stuff,

56:03

but generally we are seeing increased

56:05

temperatures, and we're seeing impacts

56:07

of increased temperatures on fisheries,

56:10

on wildlife, on marine resources,

56:13

and we're seeing like some chaotic

56:16

weather.

56:17

Patterns, weather patterns, we're seeing rain

56:19

shifts, range expansions of many

56:21

marine species, many terrestrial species

56:23

for that matter. The

56:26

United States is responsible for fifteen percent

56:28

of the carbon emissions globally. China

56:31

is responsible for thirty all right, but

56:33

we have the leg up because we industrialized

56:36

one hundred years before them. So we

56:39

have an opportunity right now because

56:41

we have the means and

56:43

the motive to try to transition

56:46

from an electricity generating

56:48

sector that's largely dependent on fossil

56:51

fuels into energy

56:53

sources that do not produce

56:55

any further carbon emissions.

56:58

To your point about if we

57:00

don't do this now, if

57:03

we do this now, no one else is going to

57:05

do anything else. We still

57:07

have the opportunity to bring that DOWT, to get rid

57:09

of that fifteen percent, to turn that fifteen percent

57:11

into zero. Whether or not any

57:14

of the other nations on this planet

57:16

partake in transitioning from

57:19

fossil fuel burning electricity

57:22

production to renewable energies,

57:25

we're still responsible for a huge portion

57:27

of that. So as a nation, we

57:30

can move towards an electricity

57:33

producing sector that produces

57:35

no carbon, and we should. That's

57:37

why it's the goal of this presidential

57:39

administration and the goal of the Nature Conservancy

57:41

to bring us to net zero carbon emissions

57:44

by the year twenty fifty. That's only

57:46

twenty six years from now. We need a major

57:48

uptake in the production

57:51

of renewable energies like

57:53

wind and solar on land and also offshore.

57:59

Can I respond to another thing that you said, You can talk for

58:01

an hour if you want start

58:04

so I

58:06

understand your trepidation about the

58:09

loss of habitat.

58:10

Can you, within this touch on the BLM's proposal.

58:13

Definitely, Okay, tell

58:15

everybody about that.

58:17

So right now, the Bureau

58:19

of Land Management is overseeing something

58:23

called the Western Solar Plan. There

58:25

is this is maybe going to be a little jargony

58:28

there's right now a draft programmatic

58:30

Environmental impact statement for

58:32

the Western Solar Plan. There are several

58:34

alternatives in that

58:37

plan. They all involve opening

58:40

public land BLM land to solar

58:43

application. What a

58:45

solar application means. Solar application means

58:47

that that land

58:49

has cleared the first hurdle, the first governmental

58:52

hurdle, to be identified as

58:55

suitable for the

58:58

building of solar farms. It

59:00

doesn't mean that all of that land, under

59:02

any circumstance, will eventually have solar

59:04

on it. You've

59:06

seen a lot in the news about the

59:10

government selected preferred alternative

59:13

of that solar plan, which would open twenty two

59:15

million acres of public land

59:17

to solar application.

59:19

Public hunting ground. Let's just call

59:21

it that.

59:22

BLM lands upon

59:24

which a variety of recreation upon

59:27

which a variety of consumptive

59:30

and non consumptive outdoor activities

59:32

can take place.

59:33

Well, you met you like you mentioned

59:35

that. And at the same time, the

59:37

BLM has promised to prioritize

59:42

recreation activities and wildlife

59:45

habitat. So how do these two things.

59:47

Like, I'm glad you asked. So, there's

59:49

one other alternative in that plan

59:51

that would only open eight million acres

59:55

to solar application, and

59:58

that eight million acres is

1:00:00

lands that are both already

1:00:03

disturbed and are

1:00:05

within ten miles of transmission

1:00:07

existing transmission infrastructure. So

1:00:11

that's one thing to support with this. Where

1:00:13

we know we need more

1:00:15

renewable energy production, we have

1:00:17

an opportunity we can

1:00:20

build solar on lands that are already disturbed.

1:00:23

By the way, twenty three million acres

1:00:25

of federal land is currently an oil and gas

1:00:27

leases, twenty three million acres twelve million

1:00:29

acres currently producing

1:00:32

oil and gas. Oh hit me? Is those

1:00:34

numbers again? Twenty three million acres

1:00:36

of federal land more than the preferred

1:00:39

alternative in the draft Programmatic

1:00:41

Environment Impacts. Twenty three million acres

1:00:43

of federal land are currently leased to oil

1:00:45

and gas companies, twelve million acres

1:00:48

currently producing oil and gas

1:00:51

of public land.

1:00:52

So one of these proposals would more than double

1:00:54

the amount of land, would

1:00:57

more than double the amount of land given

1:00:59

to energy production.

1:01:00

Yeah, I understand the question. But what I'm not sure

1:01:02

about is whether there's overlap in that

1:01:04

twenty two millionaires for solar three.

1:01:06

For the eight million dollars or eight million

1:01:09

acre plan. They would use existing

1:01:12

roads and things like that that

1:01:14

are being used by fossil fuel extraction

1:01:17

operations.

1:01:18

Or wherever possible, we

1:01:20

want to use existing transmission infrastructure,

1:01:22

which of course includes things like roads,

1:01:25

that includes things like power lines. Right, And

1:01:28

that's what we that's what we know we need,

1:01:31

and that the Nature Conservacy's working

1:01:33

towards identifying the lowest impact

1:01:35

ways to build out a

1:01:37

clean energy economy.

1:01:39

Right Because I mean, not only do you have

1:01:41

like the idea of solar panels

1:01:44

covering the ground, but all the roads in

1:01:46

infrastructure you would have to build is not

1:01:48

much different than what's already

1:01:50

being done by fossil fuel

1:01:53

viperation.

1:01:53

The footprint of any energy installation

1:01:56

is not restricted to just

1:02:00

the infrastructure that's generating the electricity.

1:02:04

Who are the biggest players that are foreign

1:02:06

against this?

1:02:09

When you say this, do you mean the renewable energy

1:02:12

transition in general or the one.

1:02:17

It's got to be a bitter pill for environmental

1:02:19

groups who've been who've built

1:02:21

their careers, who've built their organizations

1:02:23

on fighting energy development.

1:02:25

I don't think it's a bitter pill at all. I think

1:02:28

all it's in my mouth right now, it's better,

1:02:33

well not certainly not for every environmental

1:02:35

group. So there's always

1:02:37

trade offs with building any

1:02:40

energy infrastructure, and why

1:02:44

would we not transition to building renewable

1:02:47

energy infrastructure. Why would

1:02:49

we stick with fossil fuels

1:02:51

when we have the opportunity to

1:02:53

build infrastructure, to

1:02:55

build utility scale projects

1:02:58

that produce electricity at

1:03:00

no net carbon emissions.

1:03:04

You're asking a huge question, and

1:03:08

I'm trying to keep this conversation contained

1:03:11

because I could come I could

1:03:13

come in with a lot of things that are sort of out

1:03:15

of my area of direct interests

1:03:17

and expertise, and I would get into I guess,

1:03:20

national security questions. I

1:03:22

don't know, like like I don't even know. I don't even know where

1:03:24

the conversation would go. If we're talking about it from

1:03:26

a sort of a

1:03:29

perspective of the US economy security,

1:03:34

it could go one hundred directions.

1:03:36

Yeah, okay, fine, But but from

1:03:38

a public lens standpoint?

1:03:40

From okay, that that I'm comfortable with. Yeah,

1:03:42

there's always trade offs. Over

1:03:47

the last several decades, we've seen oil

1:03:49

and gas exploration, we've seen oil

1:03:52

and gas, new oil and gas leases. So

1:03:54

if we're going on public lands,

1:03:57

so if we're if we're going to use

1:03:59

public lane ends in the generation of electricity,

1:04:01

why would we continue to do that with fossil

1:04:03

fuels and not transition to renewables.

1:04:09

I can't really tell you.

1:04:11

A thing that I would explore would be efficiency

1:04:14

meaning energy per unit

1:04:16

of space.

1:04:18

Okay, that's one way to measure efficiency,

1:04:20

sure, but it's also about

1:04:23

containing the climate crisis and

1:04:25

trying to curb emissions and bring us to

1:04:28

and and energy and an

1:04:31

energy sector that's not continuing

1:04:33

to contribute to what we've seen over the

1:04:35

last several years. Runaway temperatures, species

1:04:38

shifting, the distributions, all the things we just touched

1:04:40

on. Are you familiar? I

1:04:42

can't remember who. There's a novelist. He's

1:04:46

a big birder.

1:04:48

That's his name, read

1:04:51

the French name Gay

1:04:53

No no no.

1:04:55

He's a contemporary novelist and he's a big.

1:04:57

Burder, A novelist, not

1:04:59

nonfiction. Who wrote the corrections?

1:05:02

Was it him? Either way?

1:05:05

Uh? But not leaves

1:05:07

of.

1:05:10

Either way? It doesn't matter. There's a perspective. His

1:05:12

perspective was this.

1:05:13

This perspective was as the climate,

1:05:15

the climate's changing, climate's

1:05:17

going to change. The best thing we can give wildlife

1:05:20

is sanctuary

1:05:22

to withstand those changes. Wildlife

1:05:28

places to be wild and weather

1:05:31

the storm

1:05:33

and again, like I want you like I

1:05:35

just I don't want to like I'm not I'm not looking

1:05:37

to debate it. I'm just trying to lay out my

1:05:40

reticence and then I want you just to

1:05:42

go, Okay, but that's

1:05:44

my my reticence is that we would

1:05:46

give up good funk like

1:05:49

any amount of good functioning,

1:05:51

pristine wildlife habitat in

1:05:56

it in exchange for chasing a

1:05:58

thing that I'm not sure we can get. But

1:06:00

I'm sure we're gonna lose habitat

1:06:03

and chasing it.

1:06:04

We're not necessarily going to lose pristine

1:06:07

habitat. As I mentioned,

1:06:09

one of the alternatives in this Western

1:06:11

solar plant only includes previously

1:06:14

disturbed lands. So we're not talking

1:06:16

about cutting out what is the definition of that.

1:06:18

You'd have to look at the because you could go to a ranch and

1:06:20

say that's previously disturbed. Isn't it not

1:06:24

from wildlife perspective? Okay,

1:06:26

So then Mikyle's not condos guy, gotcha?

1:06:29

Yeah, this is so like I'll

1:06:31

make the the bargain

1:06:33

with you right now. I'd be way more

1:06:35

into it if my version of disturbed

1:06:38

right like these old well pads, the

1:06:41

infrastructure that go out to you

1:06:43

know, you know, you

1:06:46

fly over you know, parts

1:06:48

of the Red Desert, all that

1:06:50

stuff, that type of infrastructure BAM

1:06:52

gets replaced with green

1:06:54

energy infrastructure. I'm like,

1:06:57

yeah, okay, I can see that. Like we're

1:06:59

not gonna in

1:07:01

any sort of good way be

1:07:04

able to rehab that into

1:07:07

the mixed grass prairie that it once was.

1:07:10

So the good news here is that the

1:07:12

public is involved in this process

1:07:15

at every step of the way. Right now,

1:07:17

there's a public comment period open for

1:07:20

the Western Solar Plan. This is going to drop April

1:07:22

first.

1:07:23

I heard.

1:07:24

The public comment period is open until April

1:07:26

eighteenth. There right

1:07:28

now, if you go to.

1:07:29

Three days after the tickets

1:07:31

going, yeah, get your tickets, get

1:07:33

your tickets to the live show, and

1:07:36

get a couple days of recoup a couple days.

1:07:37

Proceed right to the BLM's website.

1:07:40

Take a look. There will be recordings

1:07:43

of virtual meetings that have already happened.

1:07:46

But you can listen to the virtual webinars

1:07:49

describing the solar plan. Maybe somebody

1:07:51

asked, what's your definition of disturbed lends.

1:07:53

Maybe you can get a nice crisp answer from

1:07:55

the BLM on that, and then you can provide

1:07:58

public comment. Tell them what you think, and

1:08:00

that's that's the case with any not

1:08:03

just solar, that's the case with any

1:08:05

of these environmental impact statements,

1:08:08

which every renewable or fossil

1:08:10

fuel related project

1:08:13

has to go through an environmental impact statement,

1:08:15

and that the public is involved in every

1:08:17

step of the way. The public is involved in narrowing

1:08:19

down the area that's opened,

1:08:21

the public is involved in reading

1:08:25

and commenting on the proposal

1:08:28

from the company, the construction and operations

1:08:30

plan, all the way through until

1:08:34

the project is

1:08:36

built.

1:08:36

I think that there are six options if

1:08:39

I'm not mistaken, like five

1:08:41

different frameworks for the plan. And

1:08:43

then if I read this correctly,

1:08:46

there's a no action status

1:08:48

quo option, which I.

1:08:49

Think theys

1:08:52

thing happens. Yep, there's always a no action alternative.

1:08:55

Is there any existing

1:08:58

studies like where

1:09:01

large scale solar operations

1:09:03

have been built, like

1:09:06

on wildlife impact? Like are they

1:09:08

like what where are they basin

1:09:11

what they're going to do and what's going to happen.

1:09:13

On that's

1:09:16

a little out of my expertise.

1:09:18

Yeah, I mean it

1:09:20

almost feels like we're like, hey, after

1:09:22

you, but it's just like questians I have.

1:09:24

No, that's perfectly fair. I mean there are

1:09:26

ways that you can mitigate

1:09:29

the impact on wildlife

1:09:31

to things like a solar project.

1:09:34

For example. Most solar projects are going

1:09:36

to have a fence around them. That's not great

1:09:38

from a migration standpoint, but

1:09:41

you can make a permeable fence. Maybe

1:09:43

not for an elk, but for foxes,

1:09:45

Okay, for desert tortoise you

1:09:47

can. You can have openings in the fence

1:09:50

and allow them to move through that project

1:09:53

even though it's there, and they do. We actually

1:09:55

have footage of desert tortoises and

1:09:57

swift foxes running along a

1:10:00

solar farms fence and cutting

1:10:02

through.

1:10:13

There's two things I want to do, and you'd pick whatever,

1:10:15

whatever one you.

1:10:15

Want now, and then we should move to off I want.

1:10:18

Yeah. One move is talk about offshore.

1:10:20

Yeah, that's like you'd explained.

1:10:22

The other move is we

1:10:25

have an election coming up this November.

1:10:27

What are you running for?

1:10:28

If well, if there's a if there's an

1:10:30

administration somewhere within this

1:10:32

conversation, if there's a change

1:10:35

in administration, how much did

1:10:37

this just becomes a non issue. I mean Trump

1:10:40

said he was he

1:10:42

joked and was taken

1:10:44

Like everything he says he like makes a joke and actually

1:10:46

serious he joked that, Oh, no, I'm gonna be a what

1:10:49

do He said, I'm gonna be a dictator for a day, just

1:10:52

a day.

1:10:53

He was he's joke.

1:10:54

He doesn't have the authority, he said. Someone says,

1:10:56

oh, everyone's afraid you're gonna be a dictator.

1:10:59

He goes, no, I'm gonna be a dictator one day, and

1:11:01

on that day, I'm gonna close

1:11:04

the border and I'm gonna

1:11:07

take some action. I can't remember how I articulated

1:11:10

it takes some action to increase domestic oil

1:11:13

production. Then he says, then I'm gonna quit

1:11:15

being a dictator.

1:11:17

Let's do the offshore one.

1:11:18

Okay, we'll do off short. But I want to come back, like

1:11:20

all the things we're talking about, how much does

1:11:22

this ride on? Like how

1:11:25

much if you come back next

1:11:28

January seven, how

1:11:30

much would everything we just discussed

1:11:32

become a non issue because there was a change

1:11:34

in administrations.

1:11:36

I can provide you with several

1:11:38

names within the Nature Conservancy who would

1:11:40

love to come on this program and answer that question.

1:11:44

I got one more pragmatic question on

1:11:47

here, and it's okay if we just like leave

1:11:49

it on the table. But there's

1:11:51

a finite amount of public

1:11:54

land and it's

1:11:56

declining of

1:12:00

that public land habitat.

1:12:02

A lot of it is already in question.

1:12:05

We and we've we're losing good

1:12:07

habitat.

1:12:11

What what's the private land existing

1:12:14

infrastructure option to

1:12:16

carry out and get us to the same you

1:12:19

know, net zero.

1:12:22

Yeah, point like if we did this in a willing

1:12:24

seller, willing buyers.

1:12:25

Like wind farms, I mean a

1:12:27

lot of those are on we could land.

1:12:30

It's a great question. Kyle's not turbanes

1:12:33

kind of.

1:12:36

Turbineses.

1:12:41

No, that's that I think that

1:12:43

there is a lot of ground to make up by putting

1:12:46

this infrastructure on private lands. And one

1:12:49

thing that the Nature Conservancy has done some analyzes

1:12:52

towards this rooftop solar not

1:12:55

not just on homes but on big

1:12:58

box stores things like that. An

1:13:01

analysis was done that suggested that if

1:13:04

thirty five percent of all suitable

1:13:06

rooftops had

1:13:09

solar on them by twenty fifty,

1:13:11

which is aggressive but maybe

1:13:14

reasonable, a third of all roofs

1:13:16

in the United States is going to be hell on pigeons.

1:13:21

That would meet that alone

1:13:23

would meet ten percent of our needs

1:13:26

for electricity. What level of compliance

1:13:28

or what level of thirty a third

1:13:30

of rooftops covered by solar

1:13:33

panels were it. That's already that's ten

1:13:35

percent. So that's a way. That's it right

1:13:37

there, you go. Now, imagine there's a bunch

1:13:39

of the problem right there. It's a bunch of the problem. And I think you recently

1:13:42

said something about sports stadiums.

1:13:44

Yep, just fill

1:13:46

that whole thing in with solar.

1:13:48

I would say the

1:13:50

Bears, Chicago Bears Stadium

1:13:52

first one to go, great Minnesota

1:13:55

Vikings number two.

1:13:57

To any one of those things that opens up, it's

1:13:59

now closed, the top, the roof

1:14:01

closed covered.

1:14:02

What are you a Packers fan?

1:14:04

Yeah, that's right.

1:14:05

Who would pay for the BLM proposal?

1:14:07

If they like did this start doing?

1:14:09

A great question? Who pays for it?

1:14:10

I assume there's like some private individuals that are you

1:14:12

know, footing the bills to these things.

1:14:14

Do you mean who pays for the build out of the

1:14:16

actual infrastructure of.

1:14:17

It, Like, you know, are we paying

1:14:20

for some portion of it? Or is it mostly private

1:14:22

individuals who are like standing to make money

1:14:24

off this.

1:14:25

Like they're going to sell the lease or what are they gonna do?

1:14:27

How's it work? Oh? Okay, so it's

1:14:30

a it's a win win. So

1:14:33

I know it's a win win. So

1:14:37

the developer applies for a lease

1:14:40

from the federal government or

1:14:43

in the offshore wind space, the federal government

1:14:46

holds an auction for the lease

1:14:48

for the rights to build a

1:14:50

project on that ground.

1:14:54

It might go for ten million, one hundred

1:14:56

million, whatever it depends on the lease, depends on how

1:14:58

big it is, where it is. Whatever that

1:15:00

money goes into the general treasury. That's

1:15:02

in our pockets. Okay. The

1:15:06

company then has the rights to develop

1:15:08

that ground generate electricity,

1:15:11

and that goes in their pockets once they

1:15:14

start making money.

1:15:15

Once they start pouring it into the grid.

1:15:17

Which in the offshore wind space not

1:15:19

a lot of is happening yet, but it were on.

1:15:21

The brink, so it would operate just

1:15:24

like fossil fuel.

1:15:26

From a from a economics,

1:15:28

the BLM makes money off it, Yeah.

1:15:31

The public makes money off it or cattle

1:15:33

grazing, and and

1:15:36

I gotta feel it's more lucrative than the it's

1:15:39

definitely contract. Yeah. So

1:15:42

as far as as far as putting

1:15:44

solar wind on private land,

1:15:47

that does put money in the pocket of the landowner

1:15:50

big time. The companies are

1:15:52

really proprietary about how much money.

1:15:54

But it's more lucrative than cattle

1:15:56

ranching or grown corn.

1:15:58

I recently, I don't want to get into any details.

1:16:01

I have a friend that is

1:16:05

in conversation with the solar people. It's

1:16:07

life changing money. So there

1:16:10

you go, like it's life, it's it's

1:16:12

generation, it's generational money.

1:16:15

So if you're listening to this and you got a big patch of ground,

1:16:18

you want.

1:16:18

To turn the turn off? Please you

1:16:22

big patch of ground.

1:16:23

Turned it off.

1:16:23

But I mean, we got all these

1:16:25

buildings out there that are already patched

1:16:27

in to the grid somehow, some

1:16:30

way, hmm. Like right,

1:16:32

I mean there's going to need to be like if you're generating

1:16:34

some serious your juice, you

1:16:36

know, but that

1:16:38

ship I don't like, lay a

1:16:40

big, gross looking cable off the top.

1:16:42

I don't care about that. Sure if it's fixing

1:16:45

this problem. But like, you

1:16:47

know, we I just came back from

1:16:50

pheasant Fest, right, and you know we

1:16:52

talk a lot about grasslands,

1:16:56

right, the most imperiled ecosystem

1:16:59

in North America. Right,

1:17:02

And I'm like, what

1:17:05

if you can say like this is the solution,

1:17:08

then I'm like, oh uh, some trade offs,

1:17:11

but I really want it to be in these places

1:17:13

that are already messed up for wildlife.

1:17:19

But if like we have all this

1:17:21

stuff that is never going to go back

1:17:23

to supporting anything but feral cats.

1:17:26

Yep, Like let's slap some slap

1:17:28

some rough tops, hold around that stuff.

1:17:30

Yeah, I want to get to I want to get to offshore

1:17:33

bad. But it's like just

1:17:35

for your colleagues. For you and your colleagues, please

1:17:38

just make sure you're like really

1:17:41

digging into like old junkie vacant

1:17:43

lots like just whatever, Okay,

1:17:47

whatever you guys can find. Well,

1:17:50

I encourage you to actually parking lots that you

1:17:52

park under the panels.

1:17:54

I've parked in those. I've parked

1:17:56

in.

1:17:57

Those, So it's not even that it's not even that you lose

1:17:59

the parking lot. Yep, it's covered parking.

1:18:02

And what about agrivoltaics which

1:18:04

we haven't touched on. But you can grow especially

1:18:06

fruits and vegetables underneath solar panels. You

1:18:08

can graze cattle. Dairy cattle in particular

1:18:11

produce more milk when

1:18:14

they are underneath solar panels, when they

1:18:16

don't have exposure to extreme

1:18:18

heat, extreme sunlight. Great,

1:18:22

this is what I need to hear. I'm here

1:18:24

for you. I want to talk about offshore.

1:18:26

What I don't want to hear about

1:18:29

I need to hear about all the alterns before

1:18:31

we start talking about going out onto perfectly

1:18:33

fine ground and breaking it up. And

1:18:36

I would say this, I don't give I'd say that if

1:18:38

it's coal, I say if it's gas, it's

1:18:40

just like, I just don't think

1:18:42

we can afford to lose habitat.

1:18:46

We agree with you, we are looking

1:18:48

for the lowest impact alternatives. Okay, let's

1:18:50

talk about offshore.

1:18:51

And while I did, just a little tip for

1:18:53

you, if you want to talk about offshore

1:18:55

from an improving fishing standpoint,

1:18:58

that'd be a good way to do it.

1:19:03

Is that where you want to.

1:19:04

Start, what's the current? Give

1:19:06

us where offshore for? Okay,

1:19:08

do this explain what

1:19:12

offshore means, because there's like there's state offshore

1:19:15

in federal offshore. Sure, and then what

1:19:17

are we currently doing for offshore wind and

1:19:19

what are we getting out of it?

1:19:20

Yep? Set the stage. So the

1:19:23

distinguishing characteristic between

1:19:25

state and federal waters is

1:19:27

the three mile line. So in the

1:19:29

Atlantic, so three miles from shore,

1:19:33

the state has fisheries

1:19:35

management jurisdiction, leasing

1:19:38

the bottom jurisdiction. Once you get outside

1:19:40

that three mile line into the edge of the exclusive

1:19:43

economics and the EZ at two hundred

1:19:45

miles that's federally controlled.

1:19:47

Okay, I wasn't aware of the where

1:19:51

it ended.

1:19:51

Two hundred and then it's international waters,

1:19:53

got it, yep.

1:19:54

So three it becomes fed, and then at two

1:19:56

hundred it becomes sort of everybody.

1:19:58

Three to two hundred, and then it's it's everybody, it's

1:20:00

nobody. It's foreign fishing fleets, it's

1:20:03

you know, offshore accounts. They're out there somewhere.

1:20:05

Yeah, little

1:20:08

piles of money floating around.

1:20:10

That's a fish aggregating device right there.

1:20:12

Yeah, the baiales of cocaine and yeah.

1:20:14

Man, So here's

1:20:16

where we are with offshore wind right now. As

1:20:19

of last week, there

1:20:22

are twenty four operational

1:20:25

power producing wind

1:20:27

turbines in the United States Atlantic.

1:20:31

Five are actually in state waters off Black

1:20:33

Island, Rhode Island. You know, they were the first

1:20:35

Rhode Island thing. I think fished it totally.

1:20:38

Twenty seventeen they built five then

1:20:41

off of Virginia in federal

1:20:43

waters. First federal project was

1:20:47

built in twenty twenty two

1:20:49

turbines. Okay, how big in

1:20:52

what? By what metric? There's

1:20:54

six megawatts each there.

1:20:56

The circumference, What is the circumference

1:20:59

of the thing coming up out of the water where it

1:21:01

comes out of the water.

1:21:01

I was what's today Friday. I was fishing around it

1:21:04

five days ago, close enough that you

1:21:07

could reach out and touch it with your fishing rod. Not that you

1:21:09

should, because that would be trespassing. The

1:21:14

diameter, which is easier for me to

1:21:16

estimate it is

1:21:18

maybe twenty feet coming out of at

1:21:20

the surface of the water. It's bigger, of

1:21:23

course, at the sea floor, slightly tapered

1:21:25

larger at the sea floor. The

1:21:27

tip of the blade when

1:21:30

it's spinning and it's straight up and down is

1:21:33

six hundred and six fifty off the surface

1:21:35

of the ocean. And this is a

1:21:37

six megawat how

1:21:39

much water eighty five feet eighty

1:21:42

five feet of depth? Yep, yep.

1:21:45

So how's that sound, bitch anchored down?

1:21:48

Well, we'll get into that, because that's that's important.

1:21:50

But let me give you the rest of the rundown

1:21:52

here I won't spend too much time on. Then.

1:21:55

You've got a handful more projects

1:21:57

that are underway right now off of between

1:21:59

like Long Island and Martha's Vineyard, that little stretch

1:22:02

of coast. One project

1:22:04

just finished up last week. Twelve is

1:22:07

the number twelve total turbines. Then there's another

1:22:09

one that's underway. They've got five, so five,

1:22:11

five, twelve and two, so that's

1:22:13

twenty four.

1:22:14

That's where we're currently in the Atlantic Ocean,

1:22:16

and US water US or state waters.

1:22:19

Are power producing power twenty

1:22:21

four right now?

1:22:24

Can I ask one more question as you set this whole

1:22:26

thing up, Yeah, can you compare

1:22:29

the output of one of because I think I know

1:22:31

what. Most people haven't seen that, but most people have been

1:22:33

driving down the road and they've seen a wind farm yep.

1:22:36

So in size and output,

1:22:38

ye, how similar is it to what you see

1:22:41

off in the distance when you're driving.

1:22:42

Down the highway? Offshore? It is way bigger. They're

1:22:44

bigger. Yeah. So on land, your

1:22:47

typical wind turbine generators

1:22:49

three and a half megawatts, So

1:22:51

I just mentioned the ones off Virginia six

1:22:54

megawatts. That's the

1:22:56

that's the pilot or research project for

1:22:58

that. Developer will begin

1:23:00

building a commercial scale project this May.

1:23:03

They're going to be putting in fourteen's fourteen

1:23:06

megawatt wind turbine generators.

1:23:08

That project will be one hundred and seventy

1:23:10

six turbines. Sure,

1:23:12

it's going to power six hundred and sixty thousand

1:23:14

homes annually. Six hundred and sixty

1:23:17

thousand homes will be powered by

1:23:19

those wind turbines off Virginia. So

1:23:21

that project that's fairly big. One hundred and seventy six

1:23:24

fairly big one in terms of what's been leased right now.

1:23:26

But Bureau of Ocean Energy Management

1:23:29

BOUM is the regulatory

1:23:31

agency tasked with all of the permitting

1:23:33

and all of the everything with offshore wind.

1:23:36

Their current estimate by the year twenty thirty

1:23:39

is just over three thousand turbines

1:23:42

in the US Atlantic. That's the maximum build out.

1:23:44

I think we're going to land a little lower than that in

1:23:46

the twos in the two thousand, What year twenty

1:23:49

thirty, Yeah, it's twenty twenty four, So six

1:23:51

years from now three

1:23:53

thousand, more like two to twenty

1:23:55

five hundred probably in the d that's about

1:23:58

just building the gold rush for well shit,

1:24:02

there's there's a supply chain that needs

1:24:04

to catch up.

1:24:05

So the maximum man, you need to get more kids

1:24:07

signing up for Vogue time

1:24:09

school.

1:24:11

So I'll give you what I mean by the maximal

1:24:13

build out. So take the Virginia project for example.

1:24:15

The maximal build out of that project was about

1:24:17

two hundred and eight turbines.

1:24:20

They are only going

1:24:22

to build one hundred and seventy six. Where's

1:24:25

the other thirty two going?

1:24:28

Well? They through a collaborative

1:24:30

process with the public and with the federal government,

1:24:33

decided to lay off a couple locations

1:24:36

that were too close to important resources

1:24:38

like shipwrecks, like artificial briefs. They

1:24:40

said, Okay, we could build one here and

1:24:42

it's not going to be on top of a shipwreck, but

1:24:44

it's close enough, and this is a valuable

1:24:46

enough piece of bottom

1:24:49

that people like to fish that we're not

1:24:51

going to build our turbines there. We're just

1:24:53

going to carve out a little box. And that type

1:24:55

of thing is likely to happen with a lot

1:24:57

of these projects, which is why I say the maximal build

1:24:59

out three thousand, I think we're going to be maybe,

1:25:01

I don't know, twenty percent lower than that.

1:25:03

Can you hit me with Let's let's go to the current

1:25:05

ones. How many miles from shore

1:25:08

are the current ones?

1:25:09

So the one I was fishing under five

1:25:12

days ago is twenty seven nautical

1:25:14

miles from Virginia Beach, Virginia

1:25:17

straight east.

1:25:18

You're still only eighty five feet of water there.

1:25:21

Yeah. The continental shelf is a

1:25:23

is a mysterious mistress and drops

1:25:25

off at different distances from

1:25:27

shore. I don't know where you are. Off Florida,

1:25:30

you have five miles from the beach here in a thousand feet

1:25:32

of water. But yeah,

1:25:34

off Virginia, you gotta go a lot farther to

1:25:36

get to that continental shelf break, okay, and.

1:25:39

Then to transmit this

1:25:41

energy or transport this energy?

1:25:43

Oh yeah, are.

1:25:46

You trying to like bring things to a

1:25:48

centralized cable and then bring that on

1:25:50

shore or what's the infrastructure

1:25:53

there? So sorry, we

1:25:55

should hit Steve's quite of how is

1:25:57

that some bitch anchored down?

1:26:00

Which one you want to go to first transmission?

1:26:02

Or just real quick touch on. I'm just curious

1:26:04

that the engineering on it.

1:26:05

Yeah, so again, I'll speak from the Virginia

1:26:08

project that I that I'm most familiar

1:26:10

with. One hundred and seventy six turbines will

1:26:12

within that farm will spider

1:26:14

web to three offshore

1:26:16

substations, which will then

1:26:19

package up that power into larger cables

1:26:22

and shoot them to shore in

1:26:24

a cable export corridor.

1:26:26

Are those substations above or blow water

1:26:29

above water?

1:26:30

Yep? How big is that? I'm

1:26:32

not sure. The oil rig kind of look yeah, it looks like an

1:26:34

oil rig. Yep, yep. And

1:26:37

okay, now how do you anchor them down? Yeah?

1:26:39

That the footprint of the actual turbine

1:26:43

the pole. Yeah, look pad,

1:26:46

Well there's no pad, so here's okay.

1:26:48

Yeah. So most of the

1:26:50

projects that are under development right now or

1:26:53

will contribute to that three thousand by

1:26:55

twenty thirty number are built

1:26:57

with what are called monopile foundation,

1:27:00

which means you guessed it, one pull,

1:27:02

one piling. These

1:27:05

are thirty ish feet in diameter

1:27:08

and they're hammered into the seafloor

1:27:10

using a hydraulic hammer. A

1:27:13

massive vessel comes out there, holds

1:27:17

itself. The vessel has like a power

1:27:19

pole to hold you in place, but on a much

1:27:22

bigger scale. Right, They

1:27:24

anchor themselves and then they

1:27:26

drive them in and then

1:27:29

around the base and this comes into the fish habitat.

1:27:31

Piece. To prevent what

1:27:34

we call scour, they put scour protection.

1:27:36

Scour is the idea that sediment

1:27:39

will move or road because

1:27:41

of currents and tides and things

1:27:43

washing by. So if you go to the beach, take your shoes off,

1:27:46

walk into the waves and just stand there

1:27:48

let the waves wash around your feet. You

1:27:50

become destabilized as the sand erodes

1:27:53

from the pressure of your feet pressing down on it.

1:27:55

Same thing happens at a much larger scale

1:27:57

offshore. So they put rock

1:28:00

or rubble around the base in a doughnut,

1:28:03

around the base of the piling, and

1:28:05

that can make the sound of that I know

1:28:07

it, And that can extend let's

1:28:10

see sixty to ninety feet

1:28:12

maybe from the

1:28:15

edge of the pole. It's a big donut.

1:28:17

Where does that material come from?

1:28:19

Well, that's a good question. So the Nature

1:28:21

Conservancy recently put out a report

1:28:23

about different materials that can be used

1:28:25

to enhance scour protection. And

1:28:28

when I say enhance, I mean from an ecological

1:28:30

standpoint, to maximize the

1:28:32

amount of positive ecological benefit

1:28:34

that we're getting out of this material that's being

1:28:36

placed in the water. If

1:28:38

left to their own devices, the developers

1:28:41

would rely on two criteria

1:28:43

to decide what they're going to use as scour protection,

1:28:46

and those would be the

1:28:48

cost of it. We want to keep it cheat

1:28:50

because these are ten billion dollar projects

1:28:52

we're talking about, and does it accomplish

1:28:55

our engineering objective? Does it do what it's supposed

1:28:57

to do. So there's an opportunity here as

1:28:59

we sit an inflection point on the build

1:29:01

out of offshore wind with twenty four in the water almost

1:29:04

you know, two thousand plus still to come, there's

1:29:07

an opportunity to influence what material

1:29:10

is being used as scour protection. If

1:29:12

we can demonstrate that there is something to gain

1:29:14

by switching it up. What they would use

1:29:17

if left. Their advice would be like quarried

1:29:19

rock. It would depend on your geography.

1:29:21

It could be limestone, could be grantite,

1:29:24

whatever they get their hands on. Another option is

1:29:26

repurposed concrete. If somebody

1:29:28

rebuilds a bridge or an overpass, all

1:29:31

that material that's being busted up,

1:29:33

you know, put that on a barge, take it out

1:29:35

there. It works.

1:29:37

What's the lifespan of one of these things,

1:29:40

and like how long? What percentage

1:29:42

of its life does it's been just trying to pay for itself.

1:29:45

So the leases are generally for

1:29:48

twenty five to thirty years. Most

1:29:51

wind turbines pay for themselves

1:29:53

within six months or a year. What,

1:29:56

yeah, man,

1:29:58

that's efficient?

1:29:59

Is that the same with the ones that we see on

1:30:01

out here in the west.

1:30:02

Belief cell, Yeah, I could believe it

1:30:04

there more and I could believe what you're talking about that

1:30:06

just seems like a bigger pain in the ass, building

1:30:09

it out in the ocean, big pain.

1:30:11

In the ass.

1:30:12

What happens at the end of that twenty five years,

1:30:15

We're.

1:30:16

Not really sure. So I know you guys

1:30:18

have spearfished around the remains

1:30:20

of oil and gas platforms in the Gulf of

1:30:22

Mexico. There's a program now.

1:30:24

Which is hilarious because can I get kind of lay this

1:30:26

out? Really, there's

1:30:31

thousands and the golf there are just

1:30:33

like you're talking about thousands, twenty three hundred

1:30:35

roughly in the goal. There are thousands

1:30:40

of oil platforms from

1:30:43

offshore oil rigs and many of them are

1:30:45

being retired. And so to

1:30:48

kind of give a little bit of a window into where this

1:30:50

conversation is going around this wind

1:30:52

development, is these

1:30:55

oil rigs made.

1:30:57

The golf bloom.

1:30:59

I mean, the oil rigs created a

1:31:01

fishery.

1:31:05

You're shaking your head. They

1:31:08

altered they created a fishery. Now

1:31:10

there's a debate around. People are saying, well,

1:31:12

now that they're here, please

1:31:15

leave them here, because it

1:31:19

they generate so much fish, they create so much

1:31:21

habitat, they create all these vertical

1:31:23

reefs, and so now

1:31:26

people that might have lamented them coming in

1:31:29

because of the disturbance, increased boat

1:31:31

traffic, pollution, are

1:31:34

now have gotten used to them. The

1:31:36

fishery is built up around them.

1:31:39

Anglers have gotten that's how they fish.

1:31:42

And now they're fighting to keep some

1:31:46

not everybody. Some people are fighting to keep the rigs

1:31:48

in place to preserve the fishery

1:31:51

that the rigs.

1:31:51

Created, and that's likely to happen with offshore

1:31:54

wind too. The fight. I don't

1:31:56

know all those fights, and I don't

1:31:58

know. No one knows

1:32:00

what's going to happen twenty

1:32:02

five to thirty years from now, the decommissioning

1:32:04

thing. At this point, I

1:32:07

believe that technically that the fine

1:32:10

print says that the developer will take

1:32:12

it down to the substrate and leave it looking like

1:32:14

it did before they got there, which

1:32:16

means removing all that scour protection

1:32:18

material.

1:32:19

To a body mind said, when they remove an

1:32:21

oil rig in the golf, he said, it's not even a beer

1:32:23

can down there.

1:32:24

Yeah, right, probably cleaner leave no trace.

1:32:27

No, it's like they come in with like high test

1:32:29

sownar and when they're done, there's nothing nothing. It's

1:32:31

cut off wave below the surface and everything's gone.

1:32:33

And think of the expense and think of the loss

1:32:36

of what may very well be extraordinarily

1:32:38

valuable fish habitat. So that's

1:32:41

a fight that we're probably going to have in

1:32:43

twenty five or thirty years. And how much

1:32:46

of a fight that is, I don't know. But

1:32:49

the opportunity that we have now is to demonstrate

1:32:53

whether these are valuable habitat,

1:32:55

and in all likelihood for certain species they will

1:32:58

be. Whether they produce new and animals

1:33:00

or simply attract animals from

1:33:02

elsewhere is a matter of open

1:33:05

debate. My

1:33:08

suspicion is that two thousand plus

1:33:11

of these structures we

1:33:13

will see for certain species and

1:33:15

uptick in production of animals,

1:33:18

especially species that are habitat limited

1:33:20

or recruitment limited. Black

1:33:22

sea bass for example, might be one.

1:33:26

But where we are right

1:33:29

now is that this whole

1:33:31

thing is in its infancy, and

1:33:33

we haven't.

1:33:34

Well, how in its infancy can it be? If

1:33:36

it's gonna be it's twenty

1:33:38

twenty.

1:33:39

Four, right. What

1:33:41

I mean is we're any.

1:33:43

Time how many by two thousand and thirty?

1:33:44

What couple thousand?

1:33:45

Okay, well it can't be that.

1:33:47

I mean. What I mean is it's in

1:33:49

infancy for.

1:33:50

Us six years to build a couple thousands.

1:33:51

But from a scientific study standpoint, we don't

1:33:54

have any large,

1:33:56

full scale operational turbines

1:33:58

that can be used when far that can be

1:34:00

used as a study location.

1:34:02

So the biology is in its infancy, or the ecology

1:34:05

is in its infancy.

1:34:06

Correct. And there's a lot of money going into

1:34:08

collecting before data

1:34:10

right now as we're in the for many of these

1:34:12

leases, in the waning hours of the before period

1:34:16

m hm, we're trying to

1:34:18

scrape together data that

1:34:20

will be valuable comparison

1:34:23

down the line when these wind

1:34:25

farms are fully built out.

1:34:27

Man, imagine if they had done that in a really good

1:34:29

way in the goal of Mexico, how valuable

1:34:32

that information would be now.

1:34:35

I can imagine.

1:34:36

So if you could go like, well, let's take a look

1:34:38

now that it's all done, let's take a look at

1:34:40

what we want and what we lost.

1:34:41

Yep. And so a lot of a lot of scientific

1:34:44

a lot of really cool fisheries work being done.

1:34:46

When you compare this

1:34:49

to oil

1:34:52

rigs providing

1:34:54

habitat and like fishing around

1:34:56

defunct oil rigs, is

1:35:00

there like is there gonna be travel restrictions

1:35:03

in these areas for like the average

1:35:06

recreational fishermen like wanting

1:35:08

to run right under an operational

1:35:11

because you can tie off.

1:35:12

Well, that's said you can't touch

1:35:14

them. And I was like, there should be anchor points

1:35:16

on there so you can put your bungee line on there.

1:35:19

You're not supposed to touch them. My understanding

1:35:21

is that there won't. My understanding is

1:35:23

there won't be any restrictions as

1:35:26

far as how close you can get. Now, there

1:35:28

may be, there may be. There

1:35:31

may be day to day restrictions. If

1:35:33

there's a maintenance of something going on on a specific

1:35:35

turbine, the developer

1:35:38

won't allow you to get up to it.

1:35:41

But by and large, I think the

1:35:44

recreational fleet or the charter fleet, or any

1:35:46

hooking line vessel will be able

1:35:48

to transit right up into that scour protection,

1:35:50

right up into the good habitat.

1:35:52

They need to get real clear on that point. If

1:35:56

you're gonna want fishermen to buy in on it, you're gonna

1:35:58

have to really clarify that point. And I would

1:36:00

say, put a couple of mooring cleats on the side of that thing.

1:36:03

I'll uh yeah, I'll place a call to

1:36:05

the cleats.

1:36:06

In twenty twenty one, Joe Soimelli Road an article

1:36:08

on the media dot com about wind

1:36:11

turbines off the coast of New Jersey

1:36:13

and the Atlantic Shores manager

1:36:15

Doug Colpland said, you're welcome to fish

1:36:17

by the structures. We just asked that you don't tie

1:36:20

up to them. And in general it seemed like they

1:36:22

were like kind of supportive of like yeah, like

1:36:24

come hang around him, just like, don't touch them.

1:36:26

And they are supportive, and they have to be because

1:36:28

it's this is a collaborative process

1:36:31

in which the public is engaged and they

1:36:33

need as many of the stakeholders and stakeholder groups

1:36:35

on their side as they can get.

1:36:36

They should set up some bait and tackle shops

1:36:38

out there.

1:36:39

I want that, Yeah, that floating

1:36:41

barge and feed, so I.

1:36:43

Could get on board, Like from the access point,

1:36:45

that's a compromise. I could see fisher

1:36:48

you want. Don't touch it seems fair. If

1:36:50

it winds up being like don't go near it, you can't be within

1:36:52

two hundred yards of it, I feel like that's going.

1:36:54

To cause a lot of tension. I don't think we're going to see

1:36:56

that though, And I like the

1:36:58

idea of a tackle shop up out there. I

1:37:01

was thinking on Sunday when I was fishing underneath them

1:37:03

that I was putting tags on fish.

1:37:05

Oh, we're asking for so

1:37:09

you know, with tagging studies sometimes you ask the

1:37:11

angling public to participate in some way, either

1:37:13

call the tag in or release the fish. In this case,

1:37:15

we're asking people to release the animals. I

1:37:18

was thinking it'd be great to get the developer to let us put a big

1:37:20

billboard up there, big sign says hey, if

1:37:22

you catch fish looks like this, got

1:37:24

a red streamer tag on it and a little electronic

1:37:26

transmitter hanging off of it, would you please

1:37:29

do us the favor of tossing that one back? Got

1:37:31

it?

1:37:32

So?

1:37:32

Is there a big gripe from the commercial

1:37:34

fishery here? Like where I

1:37:36

mean there's We're

1:37:40

haven't gotten nearly as contentious as

1:37:42

with putting this stuff in good bird habitat,

1:37:45

buck habitat.

1:37:45

So like we got to get back to the fight

1:37:47

here. What's Yeah, it's

1:37:50

all positive.

1:37:51

That's what I want to

1:37:53

return again to my the oil

1:37:55

development and the golf. The shrimpers

1:37:59

didn't like them. No different

1:38:02

different critters, just the amount

1:38:04

of debris they're

1:38:07

after something totally different. Shrimp don't care about

1:38:09

the rigs. It's all that much more debris. It's more

1:38:11

stuff you got to avoid. So like winners

1:38:13

losers, red snaper

1:38:15

dudes, winners, shrimpers losers.

1:38:18

And there's uh an important

1:38:20

parallel in the Atlantic too. You're

1:38:22

right that the there are commercial sectors

1:38:25

of the fishing industry that aren't enthusiastic

1:38:28

about some of these wind farms, especially

1:38:31

the toad gear trawlers,

1:38:34

uh, scallops.

1:38:36

Bottom clams like bottom trawlers.

1:38:39

Yep, and the trawling for invertebrates.

1:38:42

Yeah five alums. Uh,

1:38:45

they're not enthusiastic.

1:38:47

When that's not the I mean, I don't want to cast

1:38:49

judgment, but that's not always the friendliest.

1:38:53

The ones that I know a great guys, I don't mean friendly,

1:38:55

like not great guys.

1:38:58

They get, they get, they

1:39:01

catch it.

1:39:01

They indiscriminate.

1:39:04

If you go talk to you an anglers having a bad day of

1:39:06

ficient and go like, what do you think is the main reason you're having

1:39:08

a bad.

1:39:09

Day of fision, he might say,

1:39:12

well, Okay, this is

1:39:14

a discussion for another time.

1:39:17

I mean to talk about how people blame their

1:39:19

bad day officient and stuff.

1:39:20

Sure, yeah, and I

1:39:24

just said it's a discussion for another time. But I'll say one thing

1:39:26

on, which is that for some species

1:39:29

of fin fish, the recreational sector is a responsible

1:39:31

for the majority of the mortality, not

1:39:34

the commercial sectors. What we want to hear about

1:39:36

that, that's not what we're talking about here, because we're talking about trawlers

1:39:38

who are potentially upset about wind

1:39:40

farms and on that

1:39:42

topic they may have a case.

1:39:45

Uh. And to that end,

1:39:48

developers are offering

1:39:52

let me think about how to phrase this, the

1:39:54

developers that are at that stage now

1:39:57

are offering compensatory mitigation

1:39:59

to commercial fishermen who can demonstrate certain

1:40:03

criteria. For example, within

1:40:06

timeframe A to B, I

1:40:09

drew ex revenue from

1:40:13

the area that's within your lease, I'll pay

1:40:15

you not to fish exactly. Well,

1:40:17

I'm going to pay you because you can no longer

1:40:20

fish here, but you can continue

1:40:22

fishing elsewhere. So there's actually a financial

1:40:24

opportunity here for these people because

1:40:26

they can draw two revenues, one from their usual

1:40:28

job and then they can catch the check from where they used

1:40:30

to fish. It's more

1:40:32

complex than that an individual basis, but in

1:40:35

any case, there is there is mitigation involved

1:40:38

for the commercial angler.

1:40:40

The commercial fishermen who.

1:40:41

Are yeah, yeah, I mean we can we

1:40:43

can assume two ways. Right, it's pretty easy to

1:40:45

prove your bad fishermen.

1:40:48

Well. One other thing to mention is that, just

1:40:50

like with on land renewable development,

1:40:53

the sighting of offshore

1:40:56

wind is an iterative process

1:40:58

that takes into account things like where

1:41:00