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I R S T L I t

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Everybody's damn near your tax day and we're gonna

0:42

do There's two things that are gonna happen

0:44

on this episode. We're gonna get into two things you never want

0:46

to bring up to anybody. We're

0:48

gonna talk about finances, and we're gonna

0:51

talk about politics. But

0:54

we're gonna start with we're gonna talk about politics,

0:56

kind of politics and the intersection

0:59

of politics and conservation with Becky

1:01

Humphries, who's

1:03

been on the show a couple times before, and we're gonna

1:05

we're gonna dig in with her. She's here in the studio,

1:07

but joining us from not in the studio is

1:10

Susie Orman, and she just

1:12

was saying that we need to change start a podcast

1:15

called money Eater and

1:18

We wanted to catch up with her for a couple of reasons. One because it's

1:20

tax day and we want to get some financial advice.

1:23

And two because there's some things I became

1:25

aware of now. If

1:28

you're wondering, or if you you know, you've been out of touch,

1:30

or you're a little youngster.

1:32

Uh.

1:32

Susie Orman is an American financial

1:34

advisor, author of How Many Books,

1:36

A Lot of Books?

1:38

Ten ten ten,

1:40

number one New York Times bestseller, and

1:42

I am just not a financial advisor,

1:45

sir. I am a financial icon

1:47

of America. And you're young and you

1:49

don't know about me. That's why

1:51

you're financially screwed.

1:53

Yes, if

1:55

you don't, yeah, if you don't have a big old

1:57

boat, If you don't have a big old boat yet, it's because

1:59

you haven't been listening to Susie.

2:02

So in nineteen

2:04

eighty seven, she founded the Susie Ormand Financial

2:06

Group, and her work as a financial advisor

2:09

gained notability

2:11

notoriety with Susie Orman Show, which

2:13

ran on CNBC and for

2:17

thirteen years, and does.

2:19

A podcast, I'll tell

2:21

You My Brief History, which is

2:24

two time Emmy Award winner, twice

2:26

named by Time magazine as

2:28

one hundred most influential person in the world.

2:31

Recently just named as one of the fifty over

2:33

fifty women who have changed this world.

2:35

And I could go on and on, but who cares.

2:37

About them over fifty?

2:40

No, it's true.

2:42

I actually said, well, it took you so long because

2:44

I'm mopped to be seventy three?

2:46

Are you really what?

2:47

Yeah, look it up, you google it.

2:49

Why this is part

2:51

of your research?

2:52

Well, no, I might have known. I might have read

2:54

that and then thought that's impossible because she looks

2:56

too great.

2:57

But that's why it happens when you have a

2:59

lot of money. I

3:01

haven't got any work done, but that's besides the

3:03

point as well.

3:05

Now, okay, you might

3:07

be wondering, like, well, how why this

3:09

show? Because I found now I've known

3:13

once upon a time Susan

3:15

and I for a brief period overlap

3:17

with our book publishers. But she's

3:21

the reason she's on the show right now is she's

3:23

a mega fisherman,

3:27

like I got photos here of her

3:30

with a stack of wah who manages

3:33

to live in Bahamas, which I need to ask how that

3:35

goes down? And when I first reached

3:37

out to her about coming on the show,

3:39

I see a picture of her where she's standing next

3:41

to a and

3:44

electric reel, like a deep drop reel.

3:47

Now, normally if you meet, like you know, when

3:49

you're talking to a famous person in a fish and you

3:51

get their fishing picture, you're gonna

3:53

get a picture of them holding

3:55

a fly rod with a rainbow trout

3:58

in big sky Montana, with a guide

4:01

holding the net, or.

4:03

It's a marlin.

4:04

Yeah. But that was like old that she's standing

4:06

with a deep drop rig,

4:09

and I was like, this is a legit fisher

4:12

person. Have you always fished?

4:15

No?

4:15

So when I was sixty five,

4:18

many years ago now, I

4:20

had decided what would Susie

4:23

Orman be if she didn't have

4:25

the number one show on CNBC for

4:27

thirteen years or how many of her years it was.

4:30

If she didn't have you know, standing

4:32

ovations of fifty thousand people at a time,

4:35

if she didn't have this, What

4:37

would I be if all of that went away?

4:40

So one day I decided to sell five

4:42

homes, quit my show, stop writing for Oprah,

4:45

stop being on TV BAM,

4:47

and we got a boat. And

4:50

then we started to go all around on

4:52

the boat and our captain of the

4:54

boat because the insurance

4:56

company made sure that I had a captain. They wouldn't

4:58

let me captain of myself I could have, which

5:01

did not go well with me, but I didn't have

5:03

a choice. Was an avid fisherman,

5:07

and so he would sit on the dock

5:09

with us and we'd have these little fishes,

5:11

and that's all he thought these two women could

5:13

do. So finally we fired him. We got

5:15

him out of there right. I started

5:17

to take over everything myself, and

5:21

little by little we had moved to

5:23

the Bahamas, this little

5:25

tiny island where we would

5:27

watch everybody bring in these

5:30

big fish. We didn't know what they

5:32

were because we wanted to also

5:34

filley our fish ourselves. We were

5:36

like, we are not going to be women who

5:39

the help does this? The help does that. We're

5:41

going to do it ourselves. We're going to fish, we're gonna

5:43

captain our boat, we're going to clean our boat, and

5:45

we're gonna, you know, clean our

5:47

fish.

5:49

And little by little we

5:51

would.

5:51

Be asking questions like

5:54

how do you catch a wahoo?

5:55

What's a wahoo?

5:57

And before you know it, we

5:59

got the equipment and we went out and

6:01

we would try, and before

6:04

you know it, we started to catch And

6:06

at first we didn't know the difference between a barracuda

6:09

and a wahoo, so we'd have to bring

6:11

the fish in and ask somebody on

6:13

the island is this.

6:14

A barracuda or is this a wahoo?

6:17

And little by little

6:20

we got it down really well,

6:23

and it was I think it was just a few years

6:25

ago, maybe two thousand and eighteen,

6:28

not whatever it was, but a few years

6:30

ago there was a wahoo contest

6:33

on the island and there were

6:35

nine boats that went out, huge

6:38

fishing vessels with captains

6:41

and all these lines. And we had our little,

6:43

you know, thirty two foot Boston wayler

6:45

were just two poles.

6:47

That was it, the two.

6:48

LPs, and we won not only

6:50

the contest, but we won the largest fish

6:52

as well. Oh

6:55

and now all the

6:57

men were and who had been wahooing

6:59

and everything for years, we became

7:01

their targeters if they wanted to catch us.

7:04

They never quite have, but we've.

7:06

Now I'm no longer known as

7:08

the money Lady, which was my nickname. We're

7:11

now known on the island KT and myself

7:13

as the fishing girls. And when

7:16

we go out, you see the

7:18

boats start to follow us because

7:20

they want to know where are we going, what are

7:22

we doing? And things like

7:24

like the birds, Yeah right,

7:27

they're watching for us. Or we'll

7:29

be somewhere and they'll come up just

7:31

to kind of say hi, and I know they're marking my

7:34

spot.

7:37

So I'm always like, really, you have to pretend

7:39

you want my numbers, you can have it.

7:41

You're still not going to catch here. I love

7:43

them, I love it.

7:45

Right right, But anyway,

7:47

and that's how it started, little

7:49

by little. Now I have a massive

7:51

lure collection, a massive rod

7:54

in real collection, and

7:57

we use them all the time.

7:58

How many reason are you

8:01

good at cleaning fish?

8:01

Yeah, it's actually KT that

8:04

cleans them, right, because that's what

8:06

she wanted to do. I didn't care one way

8:08

or the other, to tell you the truth. She is

8:10

magnificent at it. She

8:13

does like cleans. You hold up the thing

8:15

and you.

8:15

Could see through it. She's fabulous

8:18

at.

8:19

It, right, and she's and

8:21

then we cry back it and then we

8:23

also share it with all the other people on the

8:25

island, the islanders that work there.

8:27

Oh excellent, Now I got a question for

8:29

you. You mentioned getting up to a

8:31

position where you got a nice boat.

8:33

Now, one of our colleagues Chester, we

8:36

used call him Chester the Investor. His

8:39

plan to get a walleye boat

8:42

was to throw in on bitcoin.

8:46

Yeah, good, I hope he did.

8:48

Well. He did, and he got out a

8:52

couple of years ago.

8:54

Right, there's still a time

8:56

for him to get in a little bit now because

8:58

on April twentieth there will

9:00

be a halving a bigcoin, so

9:02

we should see it if the technical stay

9:04

the same, for bitcoin to probably go up

9:07

into the eighty thousand or so

9:09

area. Obviously it's in the seventy

9:12

thousand area now. It might be a little bit expensive

9:14

to get in for a lot, but he

9:16

can always buy the etf I bit

9:19

ib it and make some

9:21

money, not what he would have made if

9:24

he had gone in when it was at its loan, not

9:26

that long ago, at twenty thousand dollars a

9:28

bitcoin.

9:28

Well, I make sure he tunes in. Yeah,

9:31

how do you what's your take if

9:33

someone how do you advise

9:35

someone like Karn had found a segment where a guy

9:37

was trying to figure out if he could justify the purchase

9:40

of a twenty thousand dollars fishing boat. When

9:42

it comes to fishing boats, how

9:45

do you instruct people to think about

9:47

what's too much?

9:49

Yeah, he should go on. I can't I afford it segment

9:51

on the Women in Money podcast because

9:53

it's the hand of every podcast we have that And

9:56

I'll tell him, first of all, there

9:58

is nothing that it's more expensive,

10:00

and I don't care what size it

10:03

is than a boat.

10:05

Your engines are either breaking. Everything

10:07

on a boat today has a three

10:10

year lifespan.

10:10

That is it.

10:11

Your batteries will go, your your

10:14

switches will go, your everything

10:16

will go. And so it's

10:19

hard to look at a boat with something

10:21

not breaking on it as you're looking at it.

10:23

So it's not can you afford to buy a

10:25

boat? Can you afford the

10:28

upkeep on the boat? Can you afford

10:30

the insurance on the boat? Can

10:32

you afford the gasoline on the

10:34

boat to really do things?

10:37

Because gasoline now is far more

10:39

expensive than.

10:40

It was years ago. So

10:43

where you're going to house the boat?

10:45

Are you living like in Florida or someplace

10:47

that a hurricane could get the boat?

10:50

So there's all these things that go into

10:52

it.

10:52

However, bottom line, you better

10:54

have at least an eight to twelve month emergency

10:57

fund of what it would cost you

10:59

to live and pay your must

11:01

pay expenses, your mortgage or your

11:03

rent, you're in, whatever it is,

11:06

so that if you got sick, you were in an accident,

11:08

you got laid off, you would be able to pay those

11:10

for eight months. You better not have any

11:12

credit card debt whatsoever.

11:14

You better be fully.

11:16

Funding your retirement accounts to the

11:18

max. You better be

11:21

really so good when it comes

11:23

to money. And then if

11:26

you have that, you already bought a home, whatever

11:28

it is, you can have a boat.

11:30

Good luck, man. I don't know if

11:33

there's a lot of boat owners list.

11:39

It's always a good idea to roll the dice on a

11:41

big boat, because

11:43

you never.

11:43

Know what's funny.

11:44

You guys, We've had a thirty

11:46

two foot boat now for

11:49

since twenty sixteen. We

11:52

are going on eight years with the same boat.

11:54

The men on the island, and

11:58

of course they would. They think bigger is better, all

12:00

right. So they have to go from

12:03

two engines to three engines to

12:05

four engines. They have to go from

12:07

a three hundred to a four point fifty to

12:09

a six hundred.

12:11

They're nuts. If one of them

12:13

gets a.

12:13

Bigger boat, the others

12:15

all get a bigger boat. I

12:18

have never seen anything like it.

12:20

And then they say to me, why do

12:22

you keep the same boat?

12:25

What is wrong with you?

12:27

One reason I keep the same boat

12:30

is one of the reasons that I think that we

12:32

are so successful in fishing,

12:34

especially catching wahoo. Is

12:37

the wahoo, in my opinion, like

12:39

the wash off the engines

12:42

of our boat, our

12:44

engines.

12:45

And you get to stay out of what we call a boat

12:47

measuring contest, right.

12:50

But you know, I also just love beating

12:52

them in a smaller boat anyway, So what's

12:54

the difference?

12:55

Well, that brings up a great point

12:57

though, like when you go to in

13:00

vest in something recreationally,

13:03

do you measure in

13:05

the mental benefit of

13:07

being able to go do something you love? Is

13:10

that a factor?

13:11

Yes? And no?

13:12

It depends, Like obviously for somebody

13:14

like me. I'm a seriously wealthy

13:17

woman, and if I wasn't, I

13:19

shouldn't be who I am.

13:20

To this day.

13:22

So I don't measure bigger

13:24

necessarily being what can I

13:26

cannot do. I like to

13:29

buy exactly what

13:31

I need, not what I can afford,

13:34

because I can afford more than what I need.

13:37

I don't need more than a thirty

13:39

two foot boat, I don't, you

13:41

know. It's just me and Kate. It's

13:44

what I need it for. So

13:46

just because I can afford it doesn't

13:48

mean that I want to buy it.

13:52

You used to be down. You used to advise people

13:54

that eating dinner

13:56

out was a real financial.

13:59

Drain, such a drain it

14:01

was.

14:02

Actually in two thousand and nine, I

14:04

came out with a book called the two

14:06

thousand and nine Action Plan because

14:08

the economy was a mess. I was on the Oprah

14:10

Winfrey Show with it. We actually gave

14:12

it away for free, millions

14:15

of copies we gave away for free. But there

14:17

were a few things that I asked everybody

14:19

in there to do, and that was to

14:21

stop eating out for at least six

14:24

months. I thought the

14:26

restaurant industry was

14:28

going to explode.

14:31

They could not believe that I said

14:33

that. However, there was a

14:36

white paper done from Mint, which

14:38

was a finance app and the

14:40

number one debt that

14:42

people had when they had a lot of credit card

14:44

debt, the number one thing they actually spent

14:47

money on to be in debt was eating

14:49

out. So that's

14:52

when that started with me. For

14:54

me myself, sure, I'll ead

14:57

out if it's a business thing or we're away

14:59

and I don't have whatever. But even

15:01

when we travel, it's very funny.

15:04

Maybe we'll go somewhere to do a speaking

15:06

engagement and we go on a private plane.

15:08

Okay, And now

15:11

we bring our food with us

15:14

and we check into the hotel, and even though

15:16

the sponsor will pay for our food, we cook

15:18

in our hotel room.

15:21

So we have a little hot plate. We do this so

15:23

I.

15:23

Personally don't enjoy

15:26

eating out at a restaurant

15:29

just to go out and eat out only

15:31

because I just I don't know.

15:33

I think the food's better at home and healthier.

15:36

Well, you don't even have to use a hot plate. If

15:38

you got wahoo with you all the time.

15:40

Yeah, well we bring that as well because

15:42

we love wahushashimi.

15:44

Yeah yeah, so a

15:46

lot.

15:46

But if you're there for a long time, because

15:49

sometimes you're a place for a while, then

15:52

we had a little hot plate. We had a

15:54

little you know, fry pan, a little this in

15:56

a that, and we go to the grocery

15:58

store if we roun on.

15:59

A food and bring it.

16:00

So it was always people would always laugh

16:02

at us as.

16:02

They would see us checking into a hotel.

16:05

Susie, I saw a photo where it looks

16:08

like you I

16:10

might be looking at it wrong, but I feel like there's

16:12

a photo where you're sitting there with a rockfish

16:16

with a link cod that

16:18

looks like it came up with

16:22

like you caught the rockfish, but landed a link caught

16:24

and a rockfish.

16:25

Yeah, So there we are because every year

16:27

we also like to eat salmon, so we

16:30

usually go to either Alaska or British.

16:32

Columbia to catch our own salmon.

16:35

Great, and so there we were

16:37

and I was fishing, and I was

16:39

actually fishing. I didn't even you

16:41

know, we had caught our quota of

16:44

salmon and halib it. So

16:46

I was just kind of fishing and I caught something

16:49

and I'm bringing it up, and I'm like saying to kt

16:51

KT this is I don't know what

16:53

I got here, but I don't think this is just a

16:55

rockfish, because we wanted a rockfish

16:58

in order to make tacos out of it. And

17:00

all of a sudden, I bring it up and it's a link.

17:03

God that bid it

17:05

would not let go, and so we caught

17:08

both and we bought growth homes.

17:14

Okay, give us a couple, give people

17:16

a couple we'll let you go after this, but give

17:18

people a couple tips on how

17:21

they should handle their tax refunds. I'm guessing.

17:23

I'm guessing that you

17:26

don't advise people to go with the play

17:28

where you get the refund later as

17:31

good as that field.

17:32

Right, when interest rates

17:34

were at zero percent and

17:36

there was nobody was making any money on

17:39

CDs or money market accounts or anything,

17:41

then I didn't have a problem with

17:44

people getting a refund because they

17:46

really weren't losing any money that way,

17:48

truthfully.

17:49

However, now that.

17:51

Interest rates in money market funds and this

17:53

will change, are at about four and a half

17:55

or five percent, or there's places

17:57

that you can put money that are safe

17:59

and down and get a high

18:02

interest rate. Who wants to give

18:04

the government an interest

18:06

free loan over a year's period

18:08

of time of about five percent?

18:10

You have to be out of your mind. So

18:13

you would be far better.

18:14

Off now getting no

18:17

refund, paying what you need

18:20

to pay and not paying over it. So

18:22

just come out so it's a zero, and

18:24

in the long run you're actually

18:27

making more money. So that's how

18:29

you make more out of less,

18:31

to tell you the truth. So it's

18:34

less of a refund, but in the long

18:36

run, that extra money.

18:38

That they're keeping, you would just be able

18:40

to take.

18:40

That money and put it in an account

18:42

for yourself, maybe buy some bitcoin

18:45

with it.

18:45

Just joking, all.

18:49

Right, Susie Orman, thank

18:51

you so much for coming on. Good look on your next fission

18:54

trip. I really appreciate you joining us. And that's gonna

18:56

get everybody really pepped up and ready to do

18:58

their taxes.

18:59

All right, talk to you.

19:05

All right? Oh you know what's funny? So

19:07

Becky, we're gonna how you doing.

19:09

I'm good.

19:10

Did you learn anything there?

19:13

No, I

19:18

don't own a big boat. I don't

19:21

just little boats, and and

19:24

I try and balance my taxes so it comes

19:26

out even at the end of the year. But I do have

19:29

advice for people that do get a refund and

19:31

they need to donate it to conservation.

19:34

Oh there you go, yep.

19:36

And Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership

19:38

would be a great place to put it too.

19:41

That's excellent. We're going to talk about that a whole

19:43

bunch, but I gotta run. I'm going to run a couple

19:45

of Michigan things by it, and an a neighboring thing

19:47

and a neighboring thing from

19:49

a neighboring thing from Wisconsin. Handful

19:52

things we're gonna talk about. But just

19:54

a funny letter that came in so Pat Dirk,

19:56

and it

19:59

comes on the show a lot the

20:01

last Outdoor columnist. He

20:03

wrote a newspaper column last week. This

20:06

is a while ago. Now I'm looking at an old line.

20:08

But uh, Dirkin

20:11

wrote a piece about to continued decline

20:13

in Wisconsin's deer hunting population,

20:17

meaning the number of people buying deer licenses

20:19

in Wisconsin is

20:23

going down, down, down. You might be sitting, well,

20:25

why isn't my why aren't my permissions

20:27

going up up up? Which is a very long, complicated

20:29

story, but those things do not walk

20:32

in tandem. Anyways, he gets a letter

20:36

from a guy who is

20:38

of my favorite letters. And

20:41

the reason I like this letter so much is just so happens

20:43

that I'm leaving in two days

20:45

to participate in Wisconsin's

20:49

youth turkey season. But

20:53

a guy writes in, Who's who write?

20:55

In response to Dirkin's column, writes in, and it's

20:58

signed Dave Michigan

21:00

pissed hunter. He

21:05

goes on to say, though,

21:08

Wisconsin, just like Michigan, has

21:10

the same problem. And I'll tell you what from

21:13

a guy that has hunted all his life. When you turn

21:15

over a gun to a kid and they're allowed

21:18

to shoot any bucks that they want, and I've been hunting

21:20

for the past forty years, and I have

21:22

to settle for what's left over. And you

21:24

wonder why people are quitting. You take all

21:26

the hunt away before the season

21:28

gets to the big hunt of the big opening

21:31

day, most of the big bucks are already gone.

21:33

You have so many hunts, kids, special

21:36

hunts, ex bo regular bow. The

21:38

regular opening day big hunt is

21:40

a big flop. Kid hunts and they

21:42

early hunts and stuff. Take the big

21:44

bucks before the day gets here, and you might

21:46

think the big day is just about the

21:49

meat, and it's not. It's the racks. Michigan

21:51

prove that with given dough tags

21:53

twelve total, but at a cost, and

21:55

hunters let them walk, want more hunter

21:58

cut the bull crap. Give the big bucks

22:00

back to the opening day big hunts. You

22:03

might start to see some other people come back,

22:05

if it might already be too late.

22:09

Dave,

22:19

that is one impassioned.

22:21

That is one.

22:22

I assume you read it as it was punctuated.

22:25

I tried to pat

22:27

was taken to be a great T shirt.

22:30

I have this T shirt of the guy that wrote

22:32

in Yeah, the

22:34

guy that wrote in the story about the just some

22:37

unseemly behavior he was seeing among

22:40

turkeys in his neighborhood, and

22:42

I think that that might be a great T shirt. You've

22:46

met Dave.

22:47

I'm sure I've met Dave all through your

22:49

career through there

22:52

are more than one Dave in Michigan

22:55

family.

22:56

I'll translate that. I'll

22:59

translate that and be that they've

23:04

done so much do I need to translate

23:06

it?

23:07

I think, yeah, yeah,

23:09

yeah, yeah.

23:11

Now you got the archery season, and you

23:13

got the crossbow season, and you

23:15

got the youth. See really the kids. And

23:17

by the time it comes down to opening

23:19

day in Michigan November fifteenth, the Big

23:22

Hunt, I like he calls it the big Big Hunt.

23:24

Ye.

23:24

By the time the Big Hunt starts

23:27

opening day of General Firearm, the

23:29

kids have killed off all the big bucks. So

23:33

if you're trying to wonder what happened all the hunters, that's

23:35

it.

23:37

By providing special experiences

23:40

for everyone, you

23:42

may be diluting a

23:44

singular experience that used to be for everybody.

23:48

That was that saying, he who is a friend

23:50

to all his friend to mine.

23:52

Oh and our memory

23:54

gets a little cloudy too. Yeah,

23:56

you know, I have a deer on the

23:59

wall of one of the bedrooms in my home that

24:01

my dad's first buck my dad shot

24:03

in Michigan and it was a huge

24:06

buck by his standards, it

24:08

was a nine point about this big,

24:11

you know, and the and the success

24:13

rate back at that time when he shot that for

24:16

firearm deer hunting in Michigan is

24:18

about it was below thirty

24:20

percent for the

24:22

entire deer season. You know, Michigan

24:24

has been over forty percent for quite a while

24:27

now for firearm hunters in terms of

24:29

success. So and our

24:32

deer heard. You know, the antler

24:34

size has also gone up. But

24:37

you know, the majority of bucks

24:39

out there, you guys know this, or young bucks.

24:42

I mean, we exploit deer

24:45

pretty heavily in this country, especially

24:48

in the Midwest where you have an open

24:50

entry system, so

24:53

people take a lot of deer, there's no doubt about

24:55

it. But the majority of your deer are those younger

24:57

deer. And I think sometimes

25:00

our memory gets a little feaded on the glory

25:02

years and what it looks like,

25:04

not that that happened to Dave or anything.

25:08

But you know, the other part of it is we

25:10

are losing more and more hunters

25:12

as a percentage of the population. And you guys

25:15

know this, and you know it threatens

25:17

our our acceptance

25:19

out there. It threatens our clout

25:23

as in politics and voting

25:25

and regulations, and

25:27

quite frankly, I you know, I'm

25:29

more than willing to give up that big buck

25:32

for a youngster. You

25:35

know, by the time you get to Dave's

25:37

age, hopefully he's taken a few nice

25:39

bucks. I

25:41

don't know if Dave has either, but

25:43

you know, hopefully you have and you've had

25:45

that opportunity. But it is

25:48

about maximizing opportunity out

25:50

there for a lot of folks. And

25:53

Michigan during those glory years, Michigan

25:55

had over a million hunters.

25:59

They're down under a half million now

26:01

what. And so with

26:03

that, your you know, your competition

26:06

out on the landscape overall

26:08

is down from what it had been.

26:10

Yeah, but I.

26:11

Think greater fragmentation of the landscape

26:14

right which is.

26:15

Yeah, a greater fragmentation we

26:17

used to see in Michigan. Michigan

26:19

carried most of their deer herd

26:21

in the Upper Peninsula and the northern Lower Peninsula

26:24

and everybody had their little hunting camps and the

26:26

rest of it. Now the majority we

26:28

kill more deer in southern Michigan than

26:31

the up and Northern Michigan combined.

26:33

It's just you know, we've seen this, you

26:36

know, and not only Michigan. You see a lot of

26:38

deer down in Indiana, Illinois. The

26:40

deer population, quite frankly,

26:42

is much higher than it had been fifty

26:45

years ago.

26:46

Beg, you adn't do a good job. I introduce you. Yep, I'm

26:48

gonna do that right now. Becky

26:50

Humphreys is a long time biole.

26:53

Just started her career at the US Fish and Wildlife Service,

26:56

then worked her way up through

26:58

the Michigan DNR too, became the director the

27:00

Michigan Department of Natural Resources, spent

27:03

time at Ducks Unlimited, ran

27:08

National Ran an

27:10

NWTF as the CEO for how many years?

27:13

CEO for five years?

27:14

So five years heading the National Wild Turkey

27:16

Federation, and then right now

27:18

and I owe you big thanks on this has

27:21

stepped in as the interim

27:24

CEO of the Theodore Roosevelt

27:28

Conservation Partnership and

27:31

there's a permanent search underway,

27:33

but you, very graciously, at

27:35

very short notice, came

27:37

on board to run the organization

27:40

during the interim. So oh, your huge thanks there.

27:42

Well, thank you. It's a

27:44

great organization. As you know, we both sit

27:46

on the board and you

27:49

know when we lost our CEO and pretty

27:51

you know, short order last last winter.

27:54

It's one of those organizations you don't want

27:56

to see flounder. You want them to have

27:58

a great CEO and you want to to have great

28:01

leadership. So it was an honor

28:03

to be asked and ain't quite

28:05

Frankly, I was feeling retirement pretty

28:08

much. I'm

28:10

gonna try again, Try try.

28:13

You'll you'll get to retire again. The

28:17

last last call on Live tour

28:19

tickets. So the live tour starts next week.

28:21

You're listening to this right around tax Day. The live tour

28:23

starts on on the twenty third. Live Tour

28:26

starts on the twenty third. Hang

28:30

on second, me pull this up? Yeah,

28:32

who's got the who's got the dates? Hand here? I got

28:34

it? One minute? One

28:37

minute, damn it? Okay,

28:39

ready April

28:42

twenty third, we're gonna be in Mesa, Arizona, free

28:45

people. Not from Arizona. That means Phoenix but

28:48

not. April

28:51

twenty four, San Diego, California,

28:54

April twenty five, Anaheim,

28:56

California, April twenty seven, Sacramento

29:00

twenty nine, Salt Lake City April

29:02

thirty, Boise, Idaho. Then

29:05

May one, Missoula, Montana, May two

29:07

Spokane, Washington, May for Portland,

29:09

Oregon, and then closing out the

29:12

show Sinco Tomayo. Is that right?

29:14

Yes, those trees Sinco

29:16

to Mio. May fifth, Tacoma,

29:19

Washington.

29:21

Yeah. A couple of things for folks

29:23

searching for tickets, be sure

29:26

to either go through the meteater dot com

29:28

events page yep and hit

29:30

those links, or the

29:33

venues the venues only those

29:35

two places. If you just type in these

29:38

shows in the Google machine.

29:39

You'll want you want the resellers, and

29:42

it.

29:42

Is grossly expensive. Yeah,

29:44

so go go through the media dot com events

29:47

page or directly to the

29:50

theater that is hosting the show. And

29:53

then, on top of that, if you want to

29:55

try to win some tickets, there

29:58

are pint nights hosted by b HI

30:02

that proceed all of

30:04

these shows where you can actually participate

30:06

in meat Eater trivia. You can win

30:09

a bunch of free stuff, including seats

30:11

to the show.

30:12

And including a seat on

30:15

stage playing the game

30:17

right.

30:18

Well, yeah, but we got to find did we finalize the

30:20

game?

30:21

Yeah?

30:21

Oh okay, yeah, get on stage,

30:24

match your wits.

30:26

Uh oh. Also, when you

30:28

buy a ticket, here here's the here's the ur Tidbut I'll

30:30

throw in the last little thing. You can see

30:32

it both ways, but when you buy tickets it comes

30:34

bundled with the Meat Eater Outdoor Cookbook Wild Game

30:36

Recipes for the Grill, smoke or camp stoven, Campfire

30:39

Brand Spicketty new outdoor cookbook that

30:41

we have out right now, And I've been struggle a little

30:43

bituse I'm starting to put some pictures from the book up

30:45

on Instagram, and I'm like, I

30:47

put one up about I'm putting one

30:49

up about. In the beginning of the book,

30:51

we talk about like all this ancient cooking methods

30:55

stuff dating back to the Ice Age and ways

30:57

people dissingc So when you open the book, I realized

30:59

that one of the first things you see is a marmot

31:04

who's had all of his hair burned off,

31:07

which is like how small.

31:09

It's like how small game was cooked at

31:12

a time. You'd burn all his hair off and roast

31:14

it whole, and then its skin would

31:16

turn like a case. Then you

31:18

open it up and the meat inside was steamed. And

31:21

I wonder when people see that, if

31:25

they can picture that, they're also going to eventually

31:27

wind up later in the book reading about a charred

31:29

lemon gin and tonic, So

31:32

they think they're like.

31:33

What the hell.

31:34

Don't judge your book by its covering. Don't judge your

31:36

book by the first spread.

31:38

Don't judge a book by the intro photos.

31:42

Don't judge a book by the singed marmint.

31:44

I've been thinking about I've been waking up in the middle of the night

31:46

and think about those fish cakes we made last

31:48

week from the cookbook. And now I think I'm gonna

31:50

wake up in the middle of the night and have this vision

31:52

of a charred marmot.

31:54

Well, think about charred lemon gen and Tonics

31:56

washing that charred marmot. Back, Becky,

32:09

what you take on the gray wolf that just got killed in

32:11

southern Michigan? How that transition?

32:14

That's a quick view turn. I don't

32:16

you know, I don't know enough about that particular

32:18

animal to speak to you. Just yeah,

32:22

But I mean it wouldn't surprise me we wound up

32:24

having a gray wolf that we had

32:26

collared the Upper Peninsula that walked to Missouri.

32:29

Yeah.

32:29

Yeah, So I mean we'll.

32:31

That suck across the Mississippi.

32:33

Yeah, I mean it crossed a hell

32:35

of a lot of territory between.

32:36

Do you think it ran on a bridge ice swim.

32:39

That's a big swim.

32:40

It could be a big swim, but you know,

32:44

who knows, you know, whether it probably

32:46

you know they can swim, well, we know that, and

32:50

we know they cross ice bridges whenever they're

32:52

ice dams, and we know we

32:54

know they'll cross bridges

32:57

too, you know, when they when it's low activity

32:59

and the rest of us.

33:00

So, but.

33:03

We've had we've had wolf sightings

33:05

in the Northern Lower Peninsula during heavy

33:08

freeze over you know, across across

33:10

the ice.

33:10

Yeah.

33:11

Yeah, and so they come across the ice. We just

33:13

haven't been able to see find a dinner

33:15

or anything, you know, in the Northern Lower

33:17

while I was still there. So it

33:19

doesn't surprise me. I mean, we've had black bear

33:21

in southern Michigan for well

33:24

thirty years now.

33:25

Yeah, we've got a lot of black bears in

33:27

central and northern Michigan.

33:28

You know, we do, we do.

33:32

The wolf was killed by a.

33:35

U.

33:35

The wolve's killed by a This is odd.

33:37

Was killed by a guided coyote hunter. There

33:40

was a guy on a guided coyote hunt killed

33:45

an eighty seven pound gray

33:48

wolf. They're holding

33:50

the body. You know, grey wolves are federally

33:52

protected Yeah, in

33:54

there and they're holding

33:57

the body for ANEE cropsy, and I think someone said,

33:59

I think that we'll find that it was shot, but

34:03

also checking its parasite

34:05

load and maybe try to get some idea where it

34:07

came from.

34:08

Yeah, they'll probably do DNA testing on.

34:10

It too, I'm sure DNA

34:13

database, right, so they can tell who's breeding

34:15

with who and where the kids

34:17

go.

34:18

Before the show started, you and I talked about another

34:20

Michigan thing I'd like you to speak

34:22

to, and you said you were disappointed on it. I've

34:25

communicated with folks

34:29

from Michigan Nited conservation clubs on this. Is

34:31

that that explain how

34:34

coyote management just changed in

34:37

Michigan?

34:37

Well, the Commission Natural

34:39

Resources Commission just voted

34:41

to close down the coyote season for several

34:44

months of the year. Up until now, coyotes

34:46

have been legal to be taken at any time.

34:49

But how far back does that go?

34:52

Oh, let's see. I

34:54

probably we

34:56

probably made that change in the

34:58

eighties or nineties as

35:00

coyotes moved into southern Michigan

35:02

and populations, we really

35:04

saw a big increase across you

35:07

know, most of Michigan and across most

35:09

of the Midwest coyote populations

35:12

took off and people were

35:14

seeing damage from them, depredation,

35:17

and so with that we

35:19

opened up, you know, the ability to take

35:22

coyotes just about any

35:24

time, all year round, and so

35:26

this shuts it down for a period of the year.

35:28

Now here's let me give you my two different

35:30

ways of looking at it. One hand.

35:33

On one hand, I had a hard time getting worked

35:35

up about it the change because

35:38

I was sinking to myself. They

35:43

are at they are pursued

35:48

as a fur bear by travers,

35:51

okay, travers and hunters, and

35:53

if you go back any length of time, I mean

35:55

before the real biggest population explosion

35:58

in the South, I mean they were just like a state

36:00

people for bear and we're

36:02

viewed as such.

36:03

Right, that's true?

36:04

Uh, Red Fox, Oh,

36:08

what season opens October fifteenth,

36:10

whatever the hell it is. There's a season raccoon.

36:12

Depending on where you're at in the state, you might have

36:15

a November one opener

36:17

on raccoon.

36:20

Quick content, Well, we have a beaver, beautiful

36:23

coyote hide

36:26

oh in in prime condition at

36:29

like seven hundred and fifty bucks on the auction

36:31

house oddities.

36:32

Right now, yep, right off this wall.

36:34

But to the point that you

36:37

were making. It's taken during

36:39

a season where that hide is

36:41

prime prime, it's it's full

36:43

of for because it's cold out December

36:46

January.

36:46

Is that yours from Montana?

36:48

It's mine from Montana, from the winter

36:50

season, from the wall to the studio.

36:53

It makes you realize that one of those is seven to fifty.

36:55

Good chunk of money.

36:56

Right now they're one, But there's

36:58

there's are there?

37:00

Crianzy canna start now?

37:01

I'm going to start.

37:03

There's a time in the season

37:05

where that high does not prime

37:08

because it's warm and it's

37:10

much more thin, and it would not command

37:12

the same amount of value on like an open

37:14

fur market.

37:15

Yes, and so I won't argue

37:17

with you there. You don't want

37:20

two points, Okay, all right? Number one?

37:22

That's the number one point. I couldn't get

37:24

worked up about it because of that. But here's

37:26

what I do get worked up about, because

37:28

I do get worked out about it of when

37:33

when they start, when people start changing

37:35

rules, and I don't necessarily agree with why they

37:38

changed it, Meaning if it had been

37:40

the trappers or hunters

37:42

or the fur people saying

37:44

what gives why

37:47

are you guys killing kyot's in the spring

37:50

when it's with pop

37:52

season and then they're not worth anything than anyone

37:54

anyways, why not leave them for people

37:56

that that that wanna you

37:59

lie or make a few bucks on them

38:02

later in the year. But so

38:06

in your explanation of this, who was

38:08

pushing for the change, like was it coming from

38:11

them or no?

38:12

It was not coming from the hunters and the trappers,

38:15

So you know it was coming from individuals

38:17

who do not like the idea of year round

38:19

killing of coyotes, and

38:22

I think the commission was uncomfortable with that.

38:26

But like you said, you held

38:28

the same opinion I do. It's

38:30

not coming from the segment that wants

38:32

to have that population managed

38:36

for maximum value out there.

38:39

It's being taken because we don't like

38:41

the thought of taking coyotes

38:43

at that time of year. So what's happening now

38:46

is for individuals who have chickens

38:48

or individuals who who are

38:50

out there and have deprivation issues.

38:53

Now they've got to go through getting a permit

38:55

in order to take those animals

38:57

out of season, and I assume they'll

38:59

be able to do it. But every time you do that, you're

39:02

you're tying up a biologist time

39:04

and energy to issue a permit for

39:07

what had been going on where

39:09

they could be actively managing some habitat

39:12

so that you would have better habitat

39:15

on the landscape, you'd have better population

39:17

management.

39:18

You know, it's and it's a species that

39:20

we really can't Yeah, it's put

39:22

a dent down.

39:23

No, it's super abundant, and so

39:26

you know, let's be realistic

39:29

about it. You know,

39:31

it's it's one of those situations

39:33

where people might not like the thought of it,

39:35

but it's it's part of reality

39:38

that coyotes do get in trouble, they

39:40

do cause depredation issues

39:42

for people out there.

39:45

Doug Durren points out correctly,

39:48

so that the

39:50

pro argument for year round coyote

39:52

hunting is it's a superabundant resource,

39:57

and the anti argument

40:00

it overlaps with that also where

40:02

it's like it's a superabundant

40:04

resource and

40:07

hunting hasn't been proven to dent that resource,

40:09

So why are you hunting it? Because

40:12

hunting isn't managing the population.

40:15

Whatever you're doing is not working, right, I

40:17

can see that are Yeah, Yeah, that's

40:20

one of the that's like a little bit of a tongue twister

40:22

when it comes to coyotes is

40:26

you'll often have people

40:28

point out that that with

40:32

when you're hunting coyotes, you'll

40:35

offset pack dynamics

40:39

and it'll actually lead to fragmentation

40:41

and more put production, meaning you'd

40:43

have this this hierarchy that had some

40:45

sort of limit on who's reproducing.

40:48

And then as you if you kill dominant

40:50

animals, you cause these like splintering factions

40:53

and it generates more put production. So

40:58

kind of being a smart ass, you might say,

41:00

well, if you love coyotes, why

41:05

would you not want kyote hunting

41:07

because you love coyotes and it seems to be

41:09

really making a lot more of them,

41:12

you know, meaning I love deer. If

41:14

I found that there was some thing hunters were doing that

41:16

was like producing tons of giant bucks,

41:18

I would be like, please continue,

41:22

let's continue this because I love these giant

41:24

bucks. But they're saying, like I love kyotes,

41:26

don't kill kyos because it just makes more coyotes,

41:29

which is, like I said, it's an intellectual tongue twister.

41:32

I think it's less they love coyotes

41:34

and they don't love the idea of killing.

41:36

K Yeah, I think so too. And

41:39

it's not just coyotes, it's canines. I mean

41:41

we see it with the wolf population too. We've

41:44

listed in d lifts listed wolves

41:47

over and over again in Michigan

41:49

and the western Great Lakes population. And

41:52

you know, the solution when

41:54

we had depredating or when we had

41:56

problem wolves that were getting in and causing

41:59

problems, when we couldn't do lethal

42:01

take, and there was a time when we couldn't,

42:04

was to trap those wolves and

42:06

move them. And where

42:08

are you.

42:08

Moving them, Colorado?

42:11

You're moving them into the territory of another

42:13

pack where.

42:15

They're going to get brutally.

42:19

It's a brutal death sentence.

42:21

You know.

42:22

I think, what interesting

42:25

thing we just just saw it with this uh

42:28

wolf that that got killed in southern

42:30

Michigan is the

42:34

success of the anti

42:37

killing of wolf party is the

42:41

death of an individual animal is

42:45

a paper thin degree away

42:48

from the extirpation of the species as

42:50

a whole. So when you talk to

42:52

somebody, well they just killed the wolf, they're going to kill all

42:54

the wolves. Where it's like you

42:56

just whacked a white tailed deer with your bumper

42:59

for the seventh time this year. That

43:03

doesn't equate to killing all the white tails.

43:05

No, And

43:07

those charismatic species are

43:12

special.

43:13

So who you going to vote for for president?

43:19

When you when you were at when you were Charisma,

43:22

when you were at when

43:24

you ran the the.

43:27

Fishing Game Department in Michigan. In

43:32

a role like that, how do you grab like in

43:34

a role like that, how do you how do you how

43:37

do you got to handle partisan politics?

43:39

Well, you know, first of all, is a

43:42

as a state employee, which I was.

43:44

You've got to be real careful. You can't get engaged

43:46

in partisan politics. You can't do you

43:49

know, you can't do partisan fundraisers

43:51

that tie your name into

43:55

you know, advocating for one party or

43:57

one candidate or another. You've got to be

43:59

really careful with the Hatch Act

44:01

that you don't engage in

44:04

in advocating for certain issues

44:07

that go to the public.

44:08

Do you stop did you just do you stop

44:10

voting?

44:11

No?

44:11

You still vote?

44:12

No?

44:12

I still vote, Yeah, And I vote. I

44:15

vote primaries the whole nine

44:17

yards and always

44:20

have always will. You know, it's it's

44:22

my right to help decide who

44:24

gets elected. And I

44:27

think everybody should engage and

44:29

vote how they feel most you know, the

44:32

candidates that best represent their

44:34

views.

44:35

But you keep quiet about it. Yeah, you

44:37

know when you're in when you're in wildlife management

44:39

at the state level.

44:40

Yeah, you really can't. You know, well,

44:44

I'll be honest with you. I worked for both Republican

44:46

and Democratic administrations, and

44:49

you know, it's tough because there's a lot of fundraising

44:52

that goes on as you get into campaigns

44:54

and get ready for election years, and you and

44:56

you wind up happening to

44:58

be very careful. I was. I was

45:01

lucky. I had a commission that helped do fundraising,

45:04

you know, for gubernatorial elections

45:06

when it was expected that cabinet members would

45:08

do that, which I was a cabinet member. But

45:11

as you know, as an employee, I can't

45:13

do that. I can't get into the partisan so

45:16

very much bipartisan you try and work with

45:19

both parties. Unfortunately,

45:21

that middle ground is disappearing

45:24

and it's it's hard. And I tend

45:27

to be a moderate in my political views, you know,

45:29

I step on both sides of the aisle.

45:31

I tend to be fiscally conservative and a little more

45:33

liberal on some of the social issues, and

45:36

so between those trying

45:38

to find that common ground. You

45:40

know, it's really hard

45:43

because the parties have We've lost the

45:46

we've lost the conservative Democrats

45:48

and the and the more liberal Republicans.

45:51

They're just fading away.

45:54

Yeah, I

45:57

wanted something spicier in that, Steve.

45:58

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not. I'm

46:01

not frustrating anything you're saying. I just I

46:03

feel that they're faded away. They're

46:06

faded away from the

46:08

areas where you hear from people.

46:13

I think they're faded away in our elected

46:15

representation because you

46:18

know, yeah, I don't

46:20

think you know. And I think we hang

46:22

with people that tend to share our views. You

46:24

know, they share our activities. So I

46:26

agree with you. I think there are a lot of folks out there

46:29

that are like me. You know, when I

46:31

talk to folks, they they express

46:33

similar views. And I don't

46:35

think it's just because they're trying to impress me that

46:37

we're so much alike. I think they probably

46:39

do. But both parties

46:42

have taken over so such

46:46

non overlapping issues. It

46:48

makes it really difficult.

46:50

I hang with people that share my activities,

46:53

but then not

46:56

the views.

46:57

Oh, I will agree with you there.

46:59

Yeah, some of my dear dear

47:01

friends I feel have some just ridiculous

47:03

viewpoints. I

47:06

forgive him it because they like to

47:08

fish.

47:11

Well.

47:11

It mixed for interesting conversations.

47:14

And the older I get them more Now when I hear one,

47:16

I don't even like I used

47:18

to be like I'd want to argue it. No,

47:21

No, I'm just like, that's funny.

47:25

Once you start that argument, it's ending the argument

47:28

that becomes the problem.

47:29

Yeah, no, I look for I

47:32

look for. I sort of am running this

47:34

thing in my head. I was like, when

47:37

you cut all the bullshit out, I

47:40

think a good person, and

47:42

you know, I'm like, yeah, man, they're a great person.

47:45

Well do I trust them? Do I trust them

47:47

to leave the country or the state, or to

47:49

make to make wise decisions?

47:52

Yeah? But then am I going to go ask them

47:54

where I think where they think COVID

47:56

came from or whatever? Now like I might ask

47:59

where that fish they call came from? So

48:03

in the so now right

48:05

like you you've ran, you ran

48:07

a big national conservation

48:11

organization which everybody's heard of, Nation Wild

48:13

Turkey Federation. You're at the helm right

48:15

now of another federal policy conservation

48:18

group TRCP.

48:20

Yep uh,

48:24

How does an organization? How do these organizations

48:27

handle the partisan question? Meaning,

48:30

here we are, we're coming up on an election

48:32

cycle, which I feel like it's already been going on for

48:34

three years, but it's it's

48:36

I guess starting, it started starting.

48:39

It's gonna heat up, it's gonna be the most well, we're gonna

48:41

have the most expensive.

48:42

It's just going to be a wonderful year.

48:43

We're gonna have the most expensive presidential election

48:46

ever. And I don't know if that really says anything

48:48

about that just might say

48:50

something about the fact that every four years it's more

48:52

expensive. I don't know, most expensive,

48:54

hotly contested.

48:55

There are some records that I don't

48:57

really pay much at times

49:00

too, and when everything is like the most expensive

49:02

we've had yet, I think that's sort of a function.

49:04

Of advertising

49:07

expensive. In four years, it'll be the most expensive.

49:10

It's every everyone has been the most expensed.

49:12

I don't think we're going get to a point in my adult life where

49:14

we're like, man, this election is half the cost of last

49:16

one, the least expensive election we ever

49:18

had.

49:19

I think though, in state politics,

49:22

especially some of these western

49:24

states that do not have large

49:27

populations comparatively, that's

49:29

where those those numbers matter. Like I look

49:31

at the amount of cash that's going to be spent and

49:34

is being spent on the governatorial race

49:36

right now relative

49:39

to our size, Like the

49:41

dollars per person, the dollars per

49:43

person, and it's and they're going to spend

49:45

it. Yeah, it's dollars, yes,

49:48

not proportions, not fractions of dollars. And

49:50

they're going to spend it, which means we

49:53

are going to get robo calls,

49:56

texts in you know,

49:58

just like those political ads are going

50:00

to be served to us every which

50:03

way possible for in an

50:05

increasing manner like it does

50:08

not bode well for the mental health

50:10

of Montana's Now.

50:12

No, when Davy Crockett was

50:14

running for Congress, he would do a little

50:16

thing where if you came down and voted for him,

50:19

you'd get a shot of whiskey. You

50:23

could with the money they're spending, you could they could hand

50:25

out bottles of whiskey.

50:27

Yeah, it is.

50:31

Expensive, and and elections

50:33

and campaigns have gone to micro targeting,

50:36

so they've segmented.

50:38

You know.

50:38

They can tell now how

50:41

you vote. You know, even if you're in a state that you

50:43

don't have to declare your party, they

50:45

can tell by your voting record what

50:47

you when you vote, which party

50:50

you're most likely to vote for, and

50:52

they know, you know, is it

50:55

you know, are you a big fan of police protection

50:58

or not? Are you where

51:01

do you stand on right to life. They have all that

51:03

information. So when they go out and start walking

51:05

for candidates, knocking doors, which

51:08

they do in hotly contested areas,

51:10

they're pulling literature that

51:13

pertains to your interest.

51:15

That's really interesting you bring it up because the other day

51:17

one of the we had a Senate a

51:19

representative from a Senate candidate

51:23

knock on the door wanting

51:26

to speak to my wife. And

51:28

when I informed him that she wasn't there, I

51:30

thought, well, now I'm going to get the pitch. He

51:34

just walked off.

51:35

That's amazing.

51:36

He knew, he knew who he.

51:38

Was there, he knew who he was there to

51:40

talk to.

51:41

That's right.

51:43

So as you look at this, as you look at

51:45

the landscape, like, how do you guys, how does

51:47

the game work? Because here at TRCP

51:50

yep uh speak

51:53

from that seat or the NWTF seat whatever, no

51:55

matter what administration comes in, you

51:58

need to come. You're gonna need to go to the administration,

52:01

right or to appointees

52:03

or however, you're going to need to go there

52:05

and and and say,

52:08

uh, let's

52:10

work together.

52:11

That's right.

52:12

So uh, but

52:14

you can't you can't make a big bet

52:16

in one direction and then when they

52:19

lose you'd be like, I guess we're out of the game for four

52:21

years.

52:21

Well you can't.

52:22

So you're what are you doing? Like, how are

52:24

you? How are you doing this?

52:25

Well, a couple of things.

52:26

You know.

52:26

First, we and others in the conservation

52:29

community, we being TRCP, sit

52:32

down and identify our policy

52:35

objectives. What are real priorities for us,

52:37

you know, for the next administration, be it Biden

52:40

to be at Trump too, and

52:43

write those up so that we can share those

52:45

with those those campaigns,

52:48

because you're this next year is

52:50

they're campaigning, they're forming their policy

52:52

planks for their administration. By

52:54

the time they they have

52:57

identified candidates for those cabinet

52:59

posts, they will identify people

53:02

based on some of the objectives they want to achieve.

53:04

So we want to get into them before they're elected,

53:07

and we do that with both parties. We

53:10

share those information. We try and go over

53:12

that information with those campaigns so

53:15

they understand why why it's

53:17

important to us. And then

53:19

as we move forward and you have

53:21

an election and administration comes

53:24

on board, you need to get in there and

53:26

build relationships. You won't

53:28

always agree with everything. It doesn't matter

53:30

what the administration is, you're going

53:32

to disagree on certain things. But you

53:34

need to have a working relationship and

53:37

you build that trust that they will

53:39

share information on what's coming out so

53:42

that you can prepare for it. You can look for it.

53:45

You can let them know where you see

53:47

that's going to be problematic, that it

53:50

hasn't been well thought out. You

53:52

can ask them

53:54

to hold it over for more comment so that

53:56

you can they can get a more robust view

53:59

on some of the issues that you think are have

54:02

been not taken into consideration,

54:06

or even hold off on a rule or piece

54:09

of legislation that you think is bad for it.

54:12

And by

54:14

doing that, you try and build that working relationship

54:16

and trust with that administration, and

54:19

then you know you're careful in

54:21

terms of being true to your

54:24

positions, so that if you disagree

54:27

with something, you do it in a manner where you don't

54:29

surprise them. You know, it's

54:31

okay to disagree on stuff, but nobody

54:33

likes being surprised, So let them know

54:35

why you don't like it, and bring

54:39

the information on why you think it hasn't

54:41

been well thought out. Make the ask, and

54:43

then if you have to do editorials or

54:46

sign on letters or you know,

54:49

come out strongly on it, they know they

54:52

know that you don't agree with it.

54:54

They knew it was going to happen. New to

54:57

thinking on it.

54:57

Yep.

54:58

What do you run? You

55:01

talk about like you have your plan for the next administration.

55:04

You have to run like parallel two

55:06

paths, right, because you might be looking at

55:08

like let's say you're looking at you're

55:11

talking about Biden too, Okay with

55:14

that, you'd say, well, there's

55:17

a clearer pathway

55:19

to climate issues, there's

55:21

a clearer pathway to wildlife

55:24

overpasses through infrastructure

55:26

spending, right yep.

55:28

But there was in the Trump administration too, Is

55:30

that right?

55:30

Yeah?

55:31

Trump administration was very supportive

55:33

of those migration corridors and

55:35

they actually dedicated some funding to it. So

55:38

both administrations are on that. But

55:41

like Biden, we're looking at alternative

55:44

energy. But the BLM

55:46

solar plan, this is one that we have an editorial

55:48

coming out on Joel's Gutten editorial on it.

55:51

We're a bit concerned with Church with what

55:53

they're identifying in terms of

55:55

placement in those migration corridors

55:57

for solar do.

55:58

You might talk to a lot of Idaho folks

56:00

who are real, real fire out because the BLM

56:03

plan in Southwest Idaho uy

56:06

he downwhere Snort got bit. But there's

56:08

also California big horn sheep super

56:11

like the genetics for like that really

56:14

wide ass mule deer buck that

56:16

down in that country, and big old

56:18

pronghorn sage grouse. It's

56:21

a very sensitive area.

56:22

We're not opposed to alternative energy by

56:24

any stretch of the imagination. I mean, we need

56:26

to move into alternative energy. We just

56:28

want it to be carefully thought out. You

56:30

know, we need we need working

56:33

landscapes that provide great habitat

56:36

but also provide you know, clean water,

56:38

clean air, food that we like to

56:40

enjoy an energy and so, but

56:42

it's about doing the pre work

56:45

to make sure it's being placed in the appropriate

56:48

locations that aren't going to have big,

56:51

big ramifications for some of the species

56:53

that we hold near and dear.

56:55

And I think there's a huge misconception that if

56:57

you're supportive of alternative

57:00

energy, that you're supportive

57:03

of it anywhere. And I think,

57:05

like from someone who as

57:07

a former TIERCP staffer, like the some

57:12

of the like the sessions I remember

57:14

of people really hand ringing and pulling their hair

57:16

out or looking at maps of solar

57:19

placement, and like there's people

57:21

on the ground working for you know that we're supportive

57:23

of alternative energy, but recognize

57:26

the threat and the danger of citing it improperly.

57:29

And so I think like there's a

57:31

lot of back and forth. If you follow the discourse

57:34

about you know, it's either one way

57:36

or the other way, and there's people on the ground

57:39

that are really diligently thinking

57:41

about how do we stop this in places where it's

57:43

going to have a huge impact on wildlife and how

57:46

do we do it responsibly?

57:48

And we can have both. I mean that's

57:50

the thing when you look at the acreage requirements,

57:52

we have more enough acreage outside those corridors.

57:55

Now there might be other species and concerns

57:57

or landscape characteristics, historical

58:01

significance, you know, a range of issues,

58:04

but nonetheless we need to

58:06

take into account these really critical

58:08

areas. We saw the same thing in

58:10

Michigan with wind power. You

58:12

know, when we were putting up wind turbines the

58:15

areas they had the greatest wind potential

58:17

where right where birds migrated,

58:20

and it was that's going

58:22

to be problematic. I mean, if you're killing birds

58:25

like crazy when they're and we got wind

58:27

turbines located all down on the east side

58:29

of the state, which is a major

58:32

flyway corridor for migratory birds.

58:35

That's a problem, you know, so we you

58:38

know, in that situation, it was about

58:40

pulling the right expertise together, mapping

58:42

it out and looking at those

58:44

wind maps and looking at that where

58:47

those migration corridors were, and finding

58:49

solutions to it. So you're placing alternative

58:52

energy where it's going to be beneficial

58:55

and not harmful to those species.

58:58

Let me back up on the thing, and

59:00

I'm not trying to drive you to give a drive

59:03

you to give an answer you're not comfortable with, but I'm

59:06

just not clear on it. Yeah, we

59:09

talk about this this like

59:11

administration planning. Do

59:15

do you develop two or do you develop

59:18

one? And like you develop one plan for

59:20

the next four years and you're presenting it to

59:22

each campaign.

59:23

No, we do two. I

59:25

mean, for one thing, parties talk different

59:28

language, They use different

59:30

phraseology, even though they might have

59:34

the same issue, but they talk

59:36

about it in different terms. And so you

59:38

want you want the particular

59:41

party that you're going towards

59:43

to embrace this and use it. I

59:45

mean, you want it to be their recipe

59:47

book coming out, So you want it

59:49

to be put in terms that resonate

59:53

with other parts of that

59:55

party plank and what they're doing, and

59:58

so and there, there's and

1:00:00

elements are going to be more attractive to one

1:00:02

party over the other.

1:00:05

They just are.

1:00:06

I mean, you know, by and large, you'll

1:00:08

see more emphasis put on renewables

1:00:10

with the Democratic Party, and

1:00:15

security with oil security that's

1:00:17

talked about more in Republican Now.

1:00:19

In reality, we just we've

1:00:22

produced more oil and gas in this country

1:00:24

with each administration despite the party,

1:00:27

in recent years, is that right,

1:00:29

Yep, it's been ramping up.

1:00:31

I get a record high, right, yeah, in terms of oil

1:00:33

produced in the US.

1:00:35

And people don't recognize

1:00:37

that, but it's true. We have as part of

1:00:39

our national security plan.

1:00:41

Gotcha, I understand what you're saying with tailoring

1:00:44

it in that.

1:00:45

Yeah.

1:00:45

And there also and there's probably cases where you're

1:00:47

gonna there's probably cases where you're

1:00:49

going to drive at there's

1:00:53

probably cases where you're you're asking for the same

1:00:56

thing, but you're phrasing it as a different priority.

1:00:58

Yeah.

1:01:00

There was also issues you

1:01:02

know, we tend to the Republican Party tends

1:01:04

to be a little more states rights. Then

1:01:06

the Democratic Party looks for national

1:01:08

solutions on those issues.

1:01:11

So you know, that's another way that

1:01:13

you're taking a look at it. You know, during

1:01:15

the Trump administration, we saw a nice

1:01:17

expansion and hunting and fishing on national

1:01:20

refuge lands. And not

1:01:23

only did they do that, but speaking as

1:01:25

a state director, one of the things I really liked

1:01:27

is they put out a mandate

1:01:30

with that the regulations were

1:01:32

going to be as close to the state regulations

1:01:34

as they could be. So before

1:01:36

you had if you were going to hunt on

1:01:40

you know, refuge land, you might have different shell

1:01:42

limits, you might have different days of the week

1:01:44

that there was hunting, you might have all

1:01:46

kinds of different requirements that were a little

1:01:49

different season requirements

1:01:51

than what you had at the state on the state

1:01:53

land. And that just gets complex,

1:01:56

you know that, I know that, and so

1:01:58

they tried to simplify that bring

1:02:00

the federal lands closer in

1:02:03

alignment with the state regulations.

1:02:15

Do you feel is there any rumor

1:02:18

or anything around would

1:02:22

Trump return to Barnhardt as his

1:02:24

Interior secretary? Barnhart

1:02:27

Bernhart, Sorry, it was David?

1:02:29

Is that David?

1:02:30

Yeah?

1:02:31

I don't know.

1:02:32

Hey, I do know that David has

1:02:34

stayed very engaged in natural resource

1:02:36

issues, and you

1:02:39

know, he was very loyal to Trump throughout

1:02:42

the administration and even afterwards. So you

1:02:45

know, I I don't know, but I would assume

1:02:47

he'll have some role in the administration.

1:02:50

I heard a a

1:02:54

person very involved in conservation.

1:02:56

I'm not trying to be like, you know, secret

1:02:59

about someone, Uh take

1:03:01

a private conversation and apply it to someone, but

1:03:04

someone very involved in conservation had

1:03:07

said to me that what they what they liked

1:03:09

about Trump's Interior secretary

1:03:12

Part two, the second Interior Secretary,

1:03:15

was that he would save you a lot of time by

1:03:20

saying, uh, buddy,

1:03:23

you're not going to get anywhere on this with me, and

1:03:26

it would allow you to focus on the areas where

1:03:28

he said, let's have a conversation and

1:03:31

would tell you what's going to happen.

1:03:34

Yeah, and then and then stick with that.

1:03:36

Yeah.

1:03:37

And he said it was it just was. It was

1:03:39

efficient. Yeah,

1:03:41

I mean to to to spend time and resource

1:03:43

there because you never wound up being that you wasted a

1:03:45

bunch of time on something that you didn't

1:03:47

know that all of a sudden you're gonna read the newspaper that things

1:03:49

went in the direction you didn't anticipate.

1:03:51

He was an honest broker in terms of telling

1:03:54

you where issues were going if

1:03:56

there was already a thought on it, so and

1:04:00

and he he had researched issues

1:04:02

also, so he had a pretty good handle on

1:04:05

a lot of the conservation issues out there

1:04:08

in that administration. You

1:04:11

know, one of the things people probably don't realize

1:04:14

is a lot of the staff support

1:04:16

that comes in are the

1:04:19

same folks. So you'll have administrations

1:04:23

where you know a particular

1:04:25

individuals in the administration they're

1:04:27

a staff person, and you

1:04:29

might switch parties for four years or

1:04:32

eight years, but then you'll bring

1:04:34

back a lot of those people that had worked

1:04:36

during the previous Republican or Democratic

1:04:39

administration because they kind of

1:04:41

know the party priorities. And

1:04:43

also they are very helpful in

1:04:45

getting new candidates

1:04:47

and new administrations in place

1:04:51

and off to an effective

1:04:54

start to move that agenda forward,

1:04:57

because it's it's hard, especially

1:05:00

if somebody comes in from outside government.

1:05:03

You've got to make an awful lot of appointments,

1:05:05

You've got an awful lot to do, to

1:05:08

have executive orders written, and we've

1:05:10

all seen there are more

1:05:12

and more things being done by executive authority

1:05:15

now and administrations

1:05:17

kind of flip flop and reverse

1:05:19

each other's executive order right out

1:05:22

of the gate. And they do that by bringing

1:05:24

back people who are knowledgeable, know how

1:05:26

to write executive orders, and are

1:05:28

familiar with the topic and have

1:05:31

experience in it.

1:05:32

We recently had a guest on talking about offshore

1:05:35

wind offshore

1:05:38

when you know electriacy generation, how

1:05:41

do you yeah, wind power, wind power.

1:05:44

At the end of the interview, I said, so, you

1:05:46

know, when Trump wins in November,

1:05:49

where is all this sit And

1:05:52

he didn't have a great answer, but I felt

1:05:54

like you could spend a lot of time working

1:05:56

on something if you weren't being

1:05:59

shrewd. You spend a lot of time working

1:06:01

on something and then just have the rug

1:06:03

ripped out from underneath you every

1:06:05

four years.

1:06:06

Oh yeah. And that's why administrations

1:06:09

work so hard to get re elected and have at

1:06:11

least an eight year runway, because

1:06:13

it takes, you know, it takes really

1:06:16

a couple of years to get administration in and

1:06:18

rolling, to get all your your appointments

1:06:21

confirmed and in there, and

1:06:24

start to implement that policy direction, and

1:06:26

by then you're into the next election cycle.

1:06:28

In your campaigning, the administration

1:06:30

is and so you

1:06:33

know, and and quite often what

1:06:35

we'll also see is at the end of the administration

1:06:38

that's when the promises that were made when

1:06:40

they came into office get run

1:06:43

through, and some of those, quite frankly,

1:06:45

can be quite ugly.

1:06:47

That's what I was going to ask is when, because

1:06:49

both candidates would be their their last term,

1:06:52

last four yep, right, So that's

1:06:55

typically when, as you just said, like

1:06:57

you get to capitalize on the earth

1:07:00

promises, some of the campaign promises

1:07:02

they got them elected in the first place, that's right, or

1:07:04

one that independent

1:07:07

constituency. Right, We're

1:07:13

like, is

1:07:15

there going to be such a restart if

1:07:18

Trump were to win? Would

1:07:20

it hinder that last

1:07:23

four years of getting ship done?

1:07:25

Oh?

1:07:26

Like as yours? Yeah? With

1:07:28

does the does the break? Does

1:07:32

the four year vacation

1:07:34

sabbatical interrupt

1:07:36

the momentum that you would have had your second

1:07:39

term momentum?

1:07:40

Yeah? Because what we saw right was

1:07:42

like I think, like clean

1:07:44

Water Act is always a great ping

1:07:47

pong ball, right, Like God

1:07:49

forbid we have somebody be like, yeah, some

1:07:51

of that was okay, so we're just gonna return

1:07:54

the pendulum to the middle, But instead

1:07:56

you watch that pendulum go yeah,

1:08:00

and it's it's.

1:08:01

We're seeing more more of that.

1:08:03

Yeah. Yeah, So like that's

1:08:05

what I'm I'm wondering, right, is like the

1:08:08

first two years are just going to be like knocking those

1:08:10

ping pong balls all the way back over to

1:08:13

one side.

1:08:14

Yeah, you know, yes, and no, I

1:08:16

mean they're gonna if a new administration

1:08:18

comes in, or even the current administration,

1:08:21

they're going to have some individuals who do not

1:08:23

you know, cabinet members and other appointees

1:08:26

under secretaries who will not persist

1:08:29

through the second term of the administration or

1:08:32

with a new administration, they'll have to name a

1:08:34

whole new cabinet and all those

1:08:37

other appointed positions, and quite

1:08:39

frankly, that takes a lot of time and

1:08:42

energy.

1:08:42

So they'll

1:08:46

or, as we've seen in the past, not appointing

1:08:49

positions.

1:08:50

Yeah, that's right, right, that's right. Not appointing

1:08:52

positions is also a tactic out

1:08:54

there, having interim

1:08:56

folks and acting folks.

1:08:58

That's an interesting tactic when you have divisions.

1:09:01

When you can't get somebody confirmed.

1:09:03

Well no, no, I mean that also, but when you just

1:09:05

have areas in which you're not that interested,

1:09:09

I think you'd like to see downsize it's

1:09:11

just the appointment, that's

1:09:14

right, and.

1:09:15

Leave lots of vacancies in the organization.

1:09:19

Is there.

1:09:22

Is there an area potentially

1:09:24

with say renewables

1:09:27

or energy production nationally.

1:09:31

UH that that both administrations

1:09:35

kind of have more of an intersection

1:09:38

or similar thinking on that you'd see

1:09:40

as that uh as

1:09:42

that issue might have

1:09:46

national security concerns for

1:09:48

example with solar or

1:09:50

offshore or well.

1:09:52

Both administrations have been ramping up,

1:09:54

you know, hydrocarbon production

1:09:57

in the United States, so we're more self sufficient

1:09:59

there. So that has been an

1:10:02

ongoing trend as we talked

1:10:04

about. You know, I

1:10:07

think yes and

1:10:09

no think. I think

1:10:11

you're gonna see both administrations

1:10:14

wanting to get into market based incentives

1:10:17

that are out there. I mean, we've got to be able

1:10:19

to make carbon part of the economy

1:10:22

in order to treat it effectively. This is

1:10:24

my two cents. I mean, it doesn't

1:10:26

make any sense to have national forests that are

1:10:28

going up in flames and burning

1:10:31

fiber and causing tremendous

1:10:33

degradation of habitats out there, rather

1:10:36

than removing some of that fiber,

1:10:39

mimicking natural processes and using

1:10:41

that fiber and actually

1:10:44

storing that carbon. So

1:10:46

we've got to find ways that we can rebuild

1:10:49

these local economies to have working landscapes.

1:10:51

And we've lost a lot

1:10:54

of that local rural economy. I mean,

1:10:56

we don't have mills in much

1:10:58

United States anymore in order to to even

1:11:01

handle that fiber. Part

1:11:03

of our problem with you

1:11:05

know, there's been concerns with prescribed fire

1:11:08

on the landscape because there have been a couple of fires

1:11:10

that have gotten away from the Forest Service

1:11:12

or state agencies that have been using it.

1:11:15

But are we're using

1:11:17

prescribed fire sometimes in cases

1:11:20

where it's very

1:11:22

different today than it used to be, where you know,

1:11:24

you might run fire through an oak savanna or

1:11:26

a pine savannah and one day, you

1:11:29

know what the conditions are going to be, we can

1:11:32

go out there and see what the humidity

1:11:34

is. We have good weather satellite

1:11:36

data. Now we've

1:11:39

got big piles of logs that we have no mill

1:11:41

to run it to. We've got no log haulers

1:11:44

to haul it too. So you've got this huge

1:11:46

pile of logs that are been cut and

1:11:49

they're just stacked on the landscape, and

1:11:52

we're using prescribed fire then to burn that pile

1:11:55

of logs. What happens to

1:11:57

that prescribe fire window? You know,

1:11:59

anybody's had bomb fire, you know, it goes

1:12:01

from a one day fire.

1:12:03

Eventually you're standing around being like, oh my gosh,

1:12:07

it's.

1:12:07

A multi day fire,

1:12:09

and then your chance of having

1:12:11

fire escape from that. You know, you have winds

1:12:14

come up in unexpected weather situations.

1:12:17

When you have a big, big inferno

1:12:20

going like that, you can't just kill it, you

1:12:22

know, and so it's very difficult.

1:12:24

You're talking about disposing of of

1:12:27

stuff from thinning operations because there's nowhere

1:12:29

to go, there's nowhere to use, there's no way to use it economically.

1:12:31

Yeah, it might be to you, so it just has to get

1:12:34

torched.

1:12:34

It might be a salvage cut that goes in. You might

1:12:36

have a severe ice storm that comes in and

1:12:39

closes roads and closes trails.

1:12:41

You need to get that down material

1:12:44

out of there. It might be win throw. I

1:12:46

mean, we have tremendous areas in the Upper

1:12:48

Peninsula and Lower Peninsula Michigan

1:12:51

where winds race across those lakes

1:12:53

and they will you know, certain

1:12:55

events will throw trees down.

1:12:57

Yeah, it's like an avalanche path on relative

1:13:02

you know.

1:13:02

Or it could be a thinning operation where you're degrading

1:13:05

that forest. You're getting so much fiber

1:13:07

and so much ladder fuel that's

1:13:10

creating fire damage, you know, fire hazard

1:13:13

and damage for the future of that forest.

1:13:16

So at that point you want to remove it, but

1:13:19

you know, you want to remove it and be able

1:13:21

to use that product if possible, And

1:13:24

that's where we need to rebuild that infrastructure

1:13:26

in some manner.

1:13:28

How do you as a as

1:13:30

a federal policy

1:13:32

organization or you know, or

1:13:35

a conservation group

1:13:37

with federal scope, national, national level scope,

1:13:41

how do you guys come in and uh, is

1:13:44

it okay to come in and weigh in on appointments?

1:13:48

Oh?

1:13:48

Yeah, I mean we're talking about like interior

1:13:50

secretary like that that an administration

1:13:53

when they when when when a when an administration

1:13:55

picks it's it's secretary

1:13:59

of the Interior. You're sort

1:14:01

of like looking at just

1:14:04

this hugely impactful appointment. It's

1:14:07

going to be that's going to be your enemy, that's

1:14:09

going to be your ally. Right?

1:14:13

Is it Is there a pathway

1:14:15

to come in and say, hey, that that choice ain't

1:14:18

gonna work.

1:14:20

Yes, there have been in the past with the

1:14:23

going in and saying, you know, this is just not an

1:14:25

appropriate appointment given you know what

1:14:27

this person has done previously or what they

1:14:30

are saying publicly on it, or we have

1:14:32

concerns about working with it.

1:14:34

But typically what we try and do

1:14:36

is way in early in terms

1:14:38

of the types of expertise

1:14:41

or major issues that we think are coming

1:14:44

up that that the administration

1:14:47

should look at and consider

1:14:49

for appointments out there. And quite

1:14:51

frankly, most administrations coming

1:14:54

in they ask key partner

1:14:57

groups out there, who do you know

1:15:00

good?

1:15:00

Yeah, so you get a chance,

1:15:03

you could like slide a resume over. Yeah,

1:15:07

are you are you up for that job?

1:15:08

No?

1:15:08

No, you're not.

1:15:13

No, But you know, I

1:15:16

went in and interviewed for Director

1:15:19

of the Fish and Wildlife Service years ago, and

1:15:22

that's how it was. I kept saying I wasn't interested

1:15:24

in it, and it was like, we really want to talk to

1:15:27

you, just come in and talk to us.

1:15:29

So I flew in, talked to him for a day

1:15:31

and told him who I thought would be really good, But

1:15:34

it wasn't me. You know, we needed to make

1:15:37

deep cultural change in that organization

1:15:39

at that time, and I really thought it needed to come

1:15:42

from somebody within the organization, and

1:15:46

and they did. That person

1:15:49

came in. Sam Hamilton came in and was very

1:15:51

effective while he was there. Unfortunately

1:15:53

he died of a heart attack lead

1:15:56

too early in life.

1:15:59

Uh, before

1:16:02

we start recording you're talking about we

1:16:07

were talking about when

1:16:09

you hit you uh,

1:16:13

you ran the you ran the DNR

1:16:16

in Michigan. And then later we're

1:16:18

asked would you like to be a commissioner, and

1:16:21

you felt that that was inappropriate

1:16:24

to have like a former, like a

1:16:27

former department head sitting

1:16:29

on the commission and having I

1:16:32

don't know, what's a confused power dynamic.

1:16:35

Well, I think it's difficult. I think it's difficult

1:16:38

for private organizations or

1:16:40

nonprofits to have their past CEO

1:16:42

sit on their border directors. Your border

1:16:45

directors is your boss, and

1:16:47

to have your predecessor be your boss puts

1:16:50

you in an uncomfortable situation when you know

1:16:52

there are key initiatives or changes

1:16:54

that person made and you're recommending something

1:16:57

different. I

1:17:01

didn't have to deal with that when I was director. I

1:17:03

didn't have any past directors. In fact, there haven't

1:17:06

been past directors on the commission before

1:17:08

until the person that followed

1:17:10

me was named on

1:17:12

the commission for a short time. And quite

1:17:15

frankly I talked to him about it. He said it was awful.

1:17:17

Oh okay, you know, and the groups try and

1:17:20

use you also, you

1:17:22

know, I get called now on issues

1:17:24

where the sportsman's groups don't

1:17:26

necessarily agree with the decision, and they want

1:17:29

me to come out and publicly weigh in on it. Oh

1:17:31

and you know, I'm

1:17:34

not so sure my opinion at this point is any more

1:17:36

important than anybody else's opinion out

1:17:39

there. But the other part of it is,

1:17:43

you know, I think those jobs are really tough,

1:17:45

and I don't want to make it tougher that

1:17:47

person that.

1:17:50

I was more bringing that up to tea up to another

1:17:53

thing, is you would said

1:17:56

before we started recording to day, you're talking about what

1:17:58

you're seeing in general. I'll

1:18:03

have you put in your own words, but like a general erosion

1:18:06

of commission authority?

1:18:11

Can can you explain? Can you real quick tell people,

1:18:14

you know, speaking from that you got fifty of

1:18:16

these things like what are commissions

1:18:18

and what do you mean by commission authority?

1:18:20

Well, commissions natural resources

1:18:22

commissions, and they sometimes are called fishing

1:18:24

game commissions, but typically they are appointed

1:18:27

positions appointed by the governor

1:18:30

and then they are the body that either hires

1:18:33

the director of the Department Natural Resources

1:18:35

or fishing Game or whatever it's called in that

1:18:38

state, or they

1:18:41

are the decision maker on hunting

1:18:44

and fishing regulations. So you've got

1:18:46

this this public commission

1:18:49

with appointed people to help

1:18:51

help insulate the departments

1:18:54

directly from the governor's office.

1:18:56

So even though you're part of the executive branch,

1:18:59

you know you don't. You have a little bit of buffer

1:19:01

in there. And they also

1:19:04

provide some real transparency because

1:19:06

typically those commissions don't

1:19:09

pass regulations, they don't hire directors

1:19:12

without public input. When I was hired,

1:19:14

my interview was televised, so

1:19:17

it was you know, it was a very

1:19:20

public process that went

1:19:22

through in terms of selection.

1:19:24

Did they ask what your spirit animal was?

1:19:25

No, they didn't ask what my spirit animal was.

1:19:28

They asked an awful lot of other questions, So I

1:19:30

got to tell you. And but

1:19:34

you know, that process of gathering

1:19:36

public input on various regulations

1:19:38

is really important, and we are seeing now

1:19:41

more and more directors

1:19:45

are selected not by the commission but by the

1:19:47

governor. They become gubernatorial appointments,

1:19:49

which occurred in Michigan when

1:19:52

I was there. I was the last commission appointed

1:19:54

and the first gubernatorial appointed director.

1:19:58

So the commission of the director, the governor

1:20:00

in the state passed an executive order that made

1:20:04

that appointment her appointment rather

1:20:06

than the commissions.

1:20:07

Because they just didn't like what they were getting from the

1:20:09

Commission because they wanted to be just like more an

1:20:12

instrument of the administration.

1:20:13

Like, what is the push I think, you

1:20:16

know, I think they you know, what I heard

1:20:18

was you want direct accountability of your

1:20:20

cabinet members. But I really think when

1:20:23

you get into office and

1:20:25

you name your cabinet, you want to

1:20:27

be able to name those cabinet members

1:20:30

so that they're all people that are affiliated

1:20:32

in helping move your agenda forward.

1:20:35

And what the second thing that has happened

1:20:37

with that, though, is the tenure

1:20:39

of agency directors has shortened.

1:20:41

Now the average tenures less than three years.

1:20:45

Well, it's hard to manage natural resources

1:20:47

that have you know,

1:20:49

long history lifespan, scientific

1:20:53

the whole nine yards on really

1:20:55

short rotation. So yes,

1:20:57

I hear governors want that direct accountability.

1:21:00

But having some some

1:21:04

transition and having directors

1:21:06

span various parties, it's

1:21:09

not all bad. It's

1:21:11

good, I mean in my opinion, and I

1:21:13

think having the Commission in there and

1:21:15

most of your commissions are required to be bipartisan,

1:21:19

so they have the call for in various states.

1:21:21

You know, commissioners either represent a geographic

1:21:24

location or they represent

1:21:27

political party.

1:21:28

Yeah, or or uh in

1:21:33

or factions of industry meaning

1:21:36

commercial guides and guides and outfitters,

1:21:38

commercial interests, agriculture.

1:21:41

You need where you're.

1:21:41

Trying to strive for some level. And I think that

1:21:44

and I've heard and

1:21:46

maybe it's just a tradition in Washington,

1:21:49

but regionality, Yeah, I

1:21:51

think you see specified regionality as well. Yeah, because

1:21:54

so many from the you know, west of the Cascades,

1:21:56

East of the Cascades, that's right.

1:21:59

Sorry, But with that, what we're seeing is those

1:22:01

commissions are both their authorities

1:22:04

getting nit back, you know, sometimes through

1:22:06

state law that you know, legislators

1:22:09

are trying to enact laws on

1:22:11

taking of game and fish species

1:22:14

or the method of take, and then the other way

1:22:16

is they're losing their authority to a

1:22:18

point, also a point

1:22:21

a point your director.

1:22:22

The director, Yeah, got him? And you

1:22:25

generally are uneasy

1:22:28

with this, I am.

1:22:29

I think it creates more partisan politics

1:22:31

into the natural resource

1:22:33

arena, and I think it creates

1:22:35

more of these shifts. And just like we talked

1:22:38

about with executive orders that swing so

1:22:40

far one way and then the other way, you

1:22:43

know, that's that you waste a lot of time and energy.

1:22:46

Yeah, like ladies and gentlemen, we're all

1:22:48

in on renewables. Then ladies

1:22:50

and gentlemen, we're all in on high.

1:22:53

Slow down the pendulum a little bit.

1:22:54

Yeah.

1:22:55

Uh, just I

1:22:57

got a last question for you that's a little more

1:23:00

oplicated, but uh, just an observation about

1:23:02

the wild pendulum swings

1:23:04

on. I mean, people like the bitch

1:23:06

about gridlock, but

1:23:09

I always like to remind folks that this is quite intentional.

1:23:14

You know, we could be like Venezuela.

1:23:17

You know, hey we're communists, and

1:23:20

then like a couple months later, hey we're ultra right,

1:23:24

Hey we're back to communists. I mean,

1:23:26

those are you know, when people bitch about gridlock,

1:23:28

I can have a.

1:23:28

Little effect on your bank account.

1:23:30

When people bitch about gridlock and all this, it's

1:23:32

like it's this is intentionally

1:23:36

constructed that we don't go down wild

1:23:38

ass that you can't harness

1:23:40

the moment and going wild directions

1:23:43

all the time. Right, And so I don't like, I

1:23:45

get aggravated about the things that I want

1:23:47

to happen that don't happen quickly. But in general,

1:23:50

it's like it's as

1:23:52

some stability.

1:23:53

The other people's stuff is going just as slow.

1:23:55

It's better. Yeah, So if I don't

1:23:58

get what I want and they don't get what they want, I

1:24:00

feel okay about it.

1:24:01

Our issues tend to do really well though,

1:24:03

during gridlock. So you know, here's the other

1:24:05

part of it is, we might get frustrated,

1:24:08

but we are usually highly

1:24:11

effective when Congress or state

1:24:13

legislatures cannot agree on issues.

1:24:16

Our conservation issues usually

1:24:19

do really well because.

1:24:21

You can be the awesome person who

1:24:23

says, hey, I got something that everybody

1:24:25

like, Yeah, exactly right.

1:24:28

There's no like hot button

1:24:31

social issue wrapped up into it.

1:24:32

Well, that's right. I mean in DNR,

1:24:35

we used to call ourselves the Department of Fun that

1:24:37

doesn't want to support the Department of Fun. I

1:24:39

mean, you have hunting, you have camping, you've got

1:24:42

timber industry, you've got fishing and

1:24:45

hunting and wildlife viewing. So

1:24:47

I mean, but most of

1:24:49

our legislation we work

1:24:52

in a bipartisan manner. Anyhow to

1:24:54

try and get things so that you

1:24:56

have both sponsors of bills on the right and

1:24:58

the left, and and introduce thos

1:25:01

and try and keep them fairly evenly matched.

1:25:03

So those we tend to be highly successful

1:25:06

during periods of gridlock when Congress

1:25:08

can't deal with the other stuff, and.

1:25:10

They need to have something that they

1:25:15

need to bring you. I supported

1:25:17

this bill.

1:25:19

That's right.

1:25:20

Uh, here's the one is here's one. It's more

1:25:22

complicated. It's not complicated. Answers is complicated

1:25:25

to ask.

1:25:27

Uh.

1:25:29

Everyone loves to talk to Gripe

1:25:31

about ballot box biology,

1:25:34

ballot box initiatives. And

1:25:36

also I find this is an area

1:25:38

that really accentuates a lot of hypocrisy.

1:25:41

Meaning I'm

1:25:44

very supportive of the ballot initiatives

1:25:46

that guarantee the right to hunt trap

1:25:48

and fish. Okay, So I'll

1:25:51

be like, hell, yeah, vote yes,

1:25:54

this is November for your

1:25:56

states right to hunt

1:25:58

fish. Okay. Then

1:26:00

the next time some a ballot initiative comes

1:26:03

up that I don't like, I'll be like, there you

1:26:05

go, damn it, ballot box

1:26:07

biology, right,

1:26:10

putting it to the voters. That's

1:26:12

not how you do it. But a minute ago, I was

1:26:14

just avid, you know what I mean. A minute ago, I was

1:26:16

just saying, Oh, you.

1:26:17

Can get the uninformed mass to vote

1:26:20

your way. It's a great thing.

1:26:22

So people love right, like

1:26:25

everybody complains about it, But they complain about

1:26:27

it only when there's a ballot box initiative

1:26:29

that they hate. And when

1:26:31

there's ones they support, they're getting out the vote.

1:26:33

Well, it's like people don't really complain about

1:26:35

judicial activism when the courts are

1:26:38

finding in their favor.

1:26:39

Sure, you know. Yeah, So

1:26:42

here's the question that's that was

1:26:44

just the observation. Is it really

1:26:47

is there more of this now than there

1:26:49

was? Or is it just always been this way? I mean,

1:26:51

is it really more ballot

1:26:53

box biology and ballot

1:26:56

box?

1:26:58

What what?

1:26:59

Wildlife?

1:26:59

Man?

1:27:00

Yeah?

1:27:00

I think we go through waves, to be honest

1:27:03

with you, I think there are periods. You

1:27:05

know, when I think back through my career, there were

1:27:07

periods where we had ballad

1:27:09

initiatives that we fought and that we

1:27:12

supported, and then you'll have a quiet

1:27:14

period for a while, and then it creeps

1:27:17

back up again. So it's usually when there's an action

1:27:19

and a reaction that's

1:27:21

out there and.

1:27:23

Oh, like, I'll show you that's

1:27:25

right, I'll give you a ball.

1:27:28

But we have seen some of the national

1:27:31

challenges towards hunting and fishing. We

1:27:33

have seen those been direct

1:27:35

campaigns that are now being fought at the state

1:27:38

level. So I think you see

1:27:40

more activity to

1:27:43

try and restrict and also

1:27:45

promote hunting and fishing at

1:27:48

that state level than we used to do. Where

1:27:51

it used to be, you know, we had more

1:27:53

national legislation and the rest of it, and

1:27:56

so there's more activism at that state level.

1:27:59

So that is thing. Yeah, I think so,

1:28:01

because you were saying earlier that big box,

1:28:04

all the giant big box and no one after

1:28:06

him might have been a bat might be faulty,

1:28:08

memory might be faulty. But the days

1:28:11

back when they weren't ballot

1:28:13

box initiating wildlife decisions is

1:28:15

new ish. Yeah, I you

1:28:18

know, it's expanded.

1:28:19

You know, I remember we had we had some

1:28:21

back in the seventies, but then really in

1:28:24

the nineties it really came alive and then we've

1:28:26

kind of seen it dining down and now it's

1:28:29

you know, we had periods

1:28:31

across the country where there was a big push to

1:28:34

to do ballot initiatives to protect

1:28:36

the right to hunt and fish, and now

1:28:39

you're seeing challenges again.

1:28:41

Yep.

1:28:42

So and we're seeing

1:28:44

a big push right now in several

1:28:47

states for trying to advocate

1:28:49

for these commissions to have appointments that

1:28:51

are non hunters and even anti

1:28:53

hunters, an angler.

1:28:55

Zoo keepers.

1:28:56

Yeah, we got a uh, everybody's

1:28:59

got an test in the state's wildlife, so

1:29:01

we need to have those interests represented on

1:29:04

the board. Unfortunately,

1:29:06

like that, never you never get

1:29:08

to ask the question, well are

1:29:11

there interests not being represented currently

1:29:14

by our current management plan? We

1:29:17

never get to ask that. So

1:29:19

what what is the impetus?

1:29:20

Right?

1:29:21

M hm?

1:29:23

Well, yeah, I mean they're managing far

1:29:25

more species that aren't one hundred

1:29:27

and fished than are

1:29:29

and have been for quite some time. Yeah,

1:29:34

let me give you one last question, and then these guys

1:29:36

might have a last question. You're not going to do the who are you voting

1:29:38

for? Again? How

1:29:41

do you handle that?

1:29:42

I'm voting for my daughter, she's running for county

1:29:44

commissioner?

1:29:49

Nepotism?

1:29:50

How do you handle that question? Let let let's let's roll play

1:29:52

for a minute. I'm uh okay,

1:29:55

I'm I'm uh running

1:29:58

for president okay. And

1:30:00

and some we're having a meeting about agenda.

1:30:03

He said, hey, I want to hear from the big conservation groups

1:30:05

about what you guys are thinking. And I'm crafting

1:30:07

my thing. And we finished out the meeting,

1:30:09

and and like you and I meet in the hallway

1:30:12

and I'm like, well, can I plan on your support this

1:30:14

November? Becky? Now

1:30:16

you do your part. I just did my part. Can

1:30:19

I plan on your support this November?

1:30:21

If it's a candidate that I was already planning

1:30:23

to support and I felt was the best candidate,

1:30:26

I would probably let that individual know that I was

1:30:28

going to support them personally.

1:30:37

First, I don't have your vote. I don't have

1:30:39

your votes to do that.

1:30:41

No, I'm still deciding, but at

1:30:43

this point I'm not leaning towards this.

1:30:45

But you know, that's what you'd say.

1:30:47

It depends on the situation.

1:30:50

If I was in representing

1:30:52

TRCP at the meeting, I wouldn't

1:30:54

answer it at all.

1:30:55

But how how okay, how

1:30:58

do you answer it? That's why I'm trying to the

1:31:00

role play here. We are, You're representing

1:31:02

TRCP, and I say I'd like to know that I could

1:31:04

count on your support this November. I'm just like,

1:31:07

how do you do it?

1:31:08

I'm interim CEO of the Theodore

1:31:11

Roosevelt Conservation Partnership, which is

1:31:13

a nonprofit. Legally, we cannot

1:31:16

support partisan candidates.

1:31:18

Hard argu trap me. Okay,

1:31:21

that's good, that's good. I'm just helping you rehearse

1:31:23

because this might happen to you. Oh, I know,

1:31:28

here's the last one. The last one I got from you, Where

1:31:31

should people Where

1:31:34

should people be paying the most attention in

1:31:37

the next four years If we're

1:31:39

talking about just conservation with a big

1:31:41

c right like not not local,

1:31:44

not necessarily local issues like oh they messed

1:31:46

with our elk management plan, but like big

1:31:50

picture your kids are going to feel the impacts

1:31:53

of this. Where should

1:31:55

people be paying attention?

1:31:56

Well, a couple of things I think they really need to

1:31:58

pay attention to. Number one one is we

1:32:00

talked about it earlier, those working landscapes.

1:32:03

As this country moves

1:32:05

into renewables and we

1:32:07

have more and more pressure on the landscape, livestock

1:32:10

and close proximity to wildlife in the

1:32:13

whole nine yards, we need to

1:32:15

make sure that we are planning for that and

1:32:18

putting together good overall policy

1:32:20

and policy direction that accommodates

1:32:25

both both renewable energy,

1:32:27

people, livestock, food

1:32:30

and wildlife, and great hunting

1:32:32

access out on the landscape and fishing.

1:32:36

The other part of it is, I

1:32:38

would say, on the accessibility issues

1:32:41

to making sure that our public lands remain

1:32:43

public and that the tools

1:32:46

that we have in the toolbox for incentivizing

1:32:48

private land management remain

1:32:51

there and remain effective. We're

1:32:53

trying to get a farm bill through. You guys

1:32:55

know, the last farm bill expired in

1:32:58

September of twenty three as one your

1:33:00

extension. It's going to expire again

1:33:02

in twenty four later

1:33:05

this year. And that is the biggest

1:33:07

piece of conservation legislation usually

1:33:10

that we ever pass. It's huge.

1:33:12

Sixty percent of these country is in private

1:33:14

land, and you

1:33:17

know that farm bell provides tremendous

1:33:19

incentives for people to farm

1:33:23

the best and leave the rest. You know, it's kind

1:33:25

of one of the catchphrases that we say out there,

1:33:27

but really helps people steward

1:33:30

that landscape and wildlife. They

1:33:33

don't recognize property boundaries.

1:33:36

I mean, the bottom line is we need great

1:33:38

public land management and we need great

1:33:40

private land management. And I

1:33:43

personally believe we need very good active

1:33:46

management. We can't just draw

1:33:48

a line around it, leave it alone

1:33:52

and call it good unless we're willing

1:33:54

to wait centuries for you

1:33:56

know, restoration after major wildfires

1:33:59

or you know, for big

1:34:02

storms and you know the huge

1:34:05

blowdowns and and you can't

1:34:07

even use that particular land

1:34:09

for a while.

1:34:11

Got it all

1:34:13

right? So thank you for sharing.

1:34:17

You want to ask vote for me November.

1:34:24

I will tell you you know what you

1:34:26

wouldn't do it for me. But I'm gonna tell you right now you can count

1:34:28

on my support, all right.

1:34:30

All right, I hope Terry's support.

1:34:36

Anything else, guys, thanks

1:34:38

for thanks for coming on and thanks for all the work

1:34:40

that you're doing.

1:34:41

My pleasure. We've got a great team at t r

1:34:44

c P, which you certainly know and and

1:34:46

all of you do, and they

1:34:48

do great work, and they and

1:34:50

they tackle the big problems, you know. I think

1:34:52

that's the thing that tr CP I feel

1:34:55

most strongly about. A lot of organizations play

1:34:57

offense or defense on law

1:35:00

some policies, but TRCP

1:35:02

really builds this think tank model

1:35:04

where they pull all the groups together and do

1:35:07

the energy to try and build good

1:35:09

policy direction and then build that campaign

1:35:12

from the ground up. That's pretty special

1:35:14

and it takes lots of time and effort.

1:35:17

Well, what, sorry, what do we gain

1:35:19

by supporting a group like TRCP,

1:35:21

Because it's not a membership organization.

1:35:23

No, it's not.

1:35:24

It's not a membership organization. Most

1:35:26

of our funding, about two thirds of it comes

1:35:29

through grants and foundations and

1:35:31

then personal donors and

1:35:34

family foundations that donate

1:35:36

on restricted revenue. But what

1:35:39

you're bringin from it I think is the

1:35:41

coalition pulling the organizations

1:35:44

together around

1:35:46

common ideas, big picture ideas,

1:35:49

and then doing the legwork to really

1:35:51

invest and figure out how we're going to solve

1:35:53

those problems.

1:35:55

Well, I appreciate the life

1:35:58

you've spent in conservation, and I appreciate

1:36:01

you're measured, rational,

1:36:05

well articulated perspectives on things.

1:36:07

And then well thank you sir.

1:36:09

Yeah, oh that'll that'll. This will inoculate

1:36:12

us from some of the nonsense

1:36:14

that we're going to hear between now, from

1:36:17

all directions it's between.

1:36:21

I know, I know it's it's going to be a

1:36:23

tough year in that regard. It really is going

1:36:25

to be a tough year.

1:36:26

Well, hang in there. Well, maybe after the election

1:36:29

you can come back and then tell us what you think.

1:36:30

No, I'm I'm hopeful after the election, I'm going

1:36:32

to be retired. That's

1:36:35

right, you re retired, retired, retired,

1:36:38

I get it right.

1:36:38

This time we'll pipe you in like Susie

1:36:41

or from.

1:36:45

Your thirty five football that's

1:36:47

right, all right, thank you very

1:36:49

much, beg you special.

1:36:53

Lot of hard praise the

1:37:02

seand pattern. Hey,

1:37:05

they they

1:37:09

always chant to love

1:37:11

me all

1:37:13

throughout the fall.

1:37:17

When it comes to springtime,

1:37:20

they start dropping luck.

1:37:23

They they

1:37:27

only want for my hunt, and

1:37:30

they only want before a fish.

1:37:33

And.

1:37:34

They only want before the mouth. It's

1:37:39

they come around and.

1:37:43

They only want fort and

1:37:47

they only want before the sand

1:37:49

tail crank. They

1:37:51

want before the lactail buck,

1:37:54

sandering neck, the real

1:37:57

grand They only

1:38:00

want forma hunt in.

1:38:08

Only end hunt and seize

1:38:11

me. They always

1:38:14

found a reason to

1:38:17

love me and leave me for

1:38:19

the next. In love, they'll

1:38:25

say that they're sorry

1:38:29

that you just don't have time.

1:38:33

Oh, it's kind of funny,

1:38:36

I guess if I, Oh,

1:38:41

we shot the book, have

1:38:44

been waiting for my time.

1:38:50

They only want forma hunt. They

1:38:54

only want for a fish. They

1:38:58

only want before.

1:39:00

Oh, there's bot they

1:39:02

come around Acra.

1:39:06

They only want before night. They

1:39:10

only want before the same to print.

1:39:14

They only won't before the oct

1:39:16

up.

1:39:17

By sound green maccas

1:39:21

prints. They only

1:39:23

want for fight. I

1:39:32

know it took me a while

1:39:36

to find leach

1:39:40

after they tagged

1:39:42

out that they.

1:39:49

But now I know.

1:39:52

They're gone on and Smile.

1:39:56

They're gone on Smile, shallow

1:39:59

wolves, they're gone on.

1:40:01

Stove smut.

1:40:02

There's pups come

1:40:04

around Everca.

1:40:08

They're going on in smile family.

1:40:12

They're gone on the stove, Santo

1:40:15

cran Bocco. They're gone, snow

1:40:18

waped.

1:40:18

Down Samarineck

1:40:21

spoery of gran So

1:40:24

they're going.

1:40:25

On the smile over

1:40:30

my honey,