0:14

michael shermer it's time for the michael shermer show

0:17

my guess today is doctor

0:19

kevin mccaffrey he's a professor

0:21

of sociology at the university of north texas

0:24

and the other a coauthor of five books and

0:26

co editor of theoretical sociology

0:28

the future of a disciplinary

0:31

foundation and series co editor with

0:33

jonathan turner of evolutionary analysis

0:35

in the social sciences in

0:37

addition to these works he's authored a coauthor numerous

0:39

peer reviewed journal articles and handbook chapters

0:42

on a variety of topics ranging from cultural

0:44

evolution the criminology to the sociology

0:47

of empathy the two books include

0:50

cultural evolution here it is the

0:52

empirical and theoretical landscape

0:54

love that cover and

0:56

, dance of innovation infrastructure

0:59

social isolation and the evolution

1:01

of society's along with along non to say

1:03

he's one of the to see researchers of the skeptic

1:06

research center so you'll recognize his name

1:08

from that's and i had the honor of serving

1:10

on his dissertation committee for his phd

1:12

thesis on the rise of the nuns those

1:14

who hold no religious affiliation

1:17

have a nice to see how you doing

1:20

nice to see my on good

1:22

yeah so we were

1:24

just talking off air and and you know that this conversation

1:26

numerous times as you've been through the job market's and

1:28

you work your way up to ten year and so forth

1:31

i was sociology changed over

1:33

the years and have you seen

1:35

that kind of influx of diversity equity

1:38

and inclusion a movement in

1:40

your own field

1:42

so

1:43

this is something that

1:45

there's to really rise of the world war two was

1:47

something called the frankfurt school at least in the social

1:49

sciences these guys were

1:52

about marxists and i need to exploit they

1:54

needed to explain why the revolution had come

1:57

and so they appeal to all kinds of subliminal

1:59

influences the media and from various

2:01

thought leaders and society and so people were

2:04

basically self oppressing because they

2:06

weren't awakened yet to the the

2:09

significance and ubiquity of oppression

2:11

okay so this so this and sociology

2:14

and part of their motivation is to understand why

2:16

hitler was who he was and

2:18

and and a spare thought was that he was

2:20

just brainwashed by his own ideology and now

2:22

the american public there's brainwash not

2:25

by not using but by capital the

2:27

better sort of an exploitive and and a saxon

2:29

and cruelty in and oppression are are

2:31

not unlike the other so so there's

2:34

the academic influenced by you

2:36

always would have realized michael is that you always need

2:39

a catalyst in the mainstream population

2:41

or this this this poison doesn't

2:43

doesn't enforce the culture the the

2:45

catalyst either was ah

2:48

the election of barack obama the and

2:50

the media needing the to explain

2:52

opposition to the obamas

2:54

clearly brilliant i can accomplish

2:57

lawyer very

3:00

open to compromise

3:02

and and with across the aisle he

3:05

was in many ways a fantastic present that

3:08

there was resistance to him

3:09

the from some democrats from a lot of republicans

3:12

and the media had an opportunity here they

3:15

could have tried to take seriously

3:17

some of his criticism and try it on

3:19

a policy level but

3:22

that wouldn't have made as much money it was much easier

3:24

to protect them as racists all

3:26

opposition to obama is racism or bigotry

3:29

the simplified a the real

3:31

issue which was that of course people can our policy

3:33

disagreements with a bomb like a job with anybody but

3:36

instead of reporting honestly about the

3:38

nature of have much of this disagreements

3:40

obama which i think had a lot to do with nationalism

3:43

for school was an outlook on the world

3:45

a caricature to all mostly

3:48

as racist the tea party came

3:50

to be the face of the republican party despite being

3:52

a minority of that party so

3:55

that was the catalyst and that goldberg who's

3:57

just got his political science phd as a fantastic

3:59

com esse i'm about how the media

4:02

shifted how they talk about politics

4:04

to be much more even that it was

4:06

before and i caught him as centralized

4:09

black and white the republicans are these racist

4:11

bigots in the democrats are these forward

4:13

thinking on morally insightful

4:15

beings so there was that finally

4:18

michael washing i know someone answer but

4:20

i there's history prongs is that there's the historical

4:23

academic angle there's this media

4:25

angle on trying to make money and a muslim

4:28

there's the rise of the university bureaucracy

4:30

though by some estimates on the number

4:33

of administrators and universities has grown by

4:35

over two hundred and fifty now

4:37

movies a on individuals

4:40

are mostly catering to student

4:42

life and universities

4:44

have become something of a spot something

4:46

of of resort you get your mental health

4:48

therapy you get your gym you get your

4:50

food you get your kanye concerts

4:52

etc etc and this is all very wonderful

4:55

but it turns out it has nothing to do with learning most

4:57

of the time the and

4:59

and knowledge and and

5:01

to seeking and and learning about statistics and

5:03

all these so

5:05

i'm students expect to come to the university

5:07

and basically be pampered and flattered they

5:10

want to be able to pass classes by just talking

5:12

about their personal experiences in their

5:14

wishes in their desires the world and

5:17

i'm so there's a three pronged approach and i think

5:19

they've intersected in the sir pathological

5:21

way

5:22

yeah on a ladder

5:25

a point see races

5:27

or at the ratio of administration

5:30

the students to teachers or

5:33

something like that way it was that the the ratios

5:35

teachers to students hasn't changed that much

5:38

but the ratio of administrators to students

5:40

has changed is that the a major distinction

5:42

there the answer these people

5:44

have to be paid amina they've they're paid pretty

5:47

well we know how this works you gotta get your health

5:49

care and and you know all that

5:51

of it that the perks and benefits and

5:53

as staff and you know administrators

5:56

citizen support the administrators that's

5:58

pretty expensive is that's why tuition

6:01

is gonna more than pretty much any other

6:03

product or service in the country

6:06

why i should say that

6:09

if you look at the history of universities

6:11

they've always been retreats for the elite some

6:14

people took it seriously but but you know there's always

6:16

a little bit of a spot of the truth is is now it's become

6:18

democratize it's become com ah to fight available

6:20

to the masses so is is part

6:23

of why to isn't going up yes to to on

6:25

fund the bureaucracy the sort of rent seeking

6:28

but it's also just a matter of opening up the universe

6:30

is more and more and more people and there's obvious

6:32

financial incentives to doing this the

6:34

next a university rankings in many cases are

6:36

predicated in part on the amount

6:39

of complications of our students

6:41

and the and and how many students they graduate

6:43

ranking is impervious on that those

6:45

you can admit a lot of students not only do make money

6:48

but if you pass them through it looks

6:50

like you're being very effective because of course there's no real

6:52

evaluation graduates once they graduate

6:54

about what they actually learnt rarely is not available

6:56

to the public's so yeah it is

6:58

a desire to make money and and now they have to fund this

7:01

this huge bureaucracies well

7:03

yeah

7:04

it was writing electron valerie

7:07

in one of my examples was is it is

7:09

a college education worth it what

7:12

the metric well the usually the metric

7:14

you run into is like like life long

7:16

ernie the college students do

7:18

appear to make more money than non college

7:21

grads the course your to be a

7:23

dozen other variables in there that explain

7:25

that and that the education itself may

7:27

not affect that i don't know how much you know about

7:29

the up it's it's it's oh my word ask

7:32

you you know when when you have kids and saw it would

7:34

you send him to a college educated get to get a college

7:36

educations two hundred fifty thousand bucks

7:38

the world

7:41

the college degree earnings are usually aggregated

7:44

so if you're if you get a degree and petroleum

7:46

engineering does gonna bring the average of might have been the

7:48

enemy collapse or the majors in the sociology

7:51

majors are riding along and the stem majors in terms

7:53

of of earnings

7:56

so it hard i we have to desegregate

7:58

i did i think the the returns investment of

8:00

a college degree for many majors like was an

8:02

english major humanities majors on

8:04

some social science majors at is is lower

8:07

than the public i think realizes i

8:10

don't others native it would also make

8:12

us because i'm i think i think it's really

8:14

important that the public and this is a kind

8:17

of a lot of bugaboo of mine has become

8:19

i want to public to be not yet you know

8:21

that a facebook page i fucking love science

8:24

and we treated our science it

8:27

is it's deification it's a real occasion

8:29

of knowledge production and college

8:31

and university these places

8:34

are filled with confusions and ideologies

8:36

and and research programs that are going nowhere

8:39

but but but but are easy to advocate

8:41

for or or sound good and you know the

8:43

university has all kinds of strengths and weaknesses

8:45

with in it and it within its own knowledge production

8:48

mechanisms and so what i syndicate

8:50

a college what depends on what major he wants

8:53

and or she and and if she wants to get

8:55

a would say it social sciences or humanities

8:57

degrees i want her to go in there savvy

9:00

i don't want her to to confuse

9:02

sloganeering for knowledge

9:05

so smash capitalism d fun police

9:07

are you know whiteness widespread you've

9:10

gotta be able to tell the difference between sloganeering

9:13

and knowledge and another

9:15

thing as you just quickly doing here there's

9:17

the i jumped defecation a pirate there

9:19

are many many many people night known higher

9:22

and more than there are tenured faculty

9:24

who are working for very very low wages

9:27

as adjunct and whether

9:29

or not you are resigned in your contract as an adjunct

9:31

is highly predicated on your

9:33

student evaluations though they're incentive

9:35

is just to give students simple slogans

9:38

you know write essays the just talk about your personal

9:40

thoughts you know because they want

9:42

the soonest why consider they can keep their jobs

9:44

were treating too many phd is is not have jobs

9:46

for that's a whole separate technology so

9:48

to answer your question my god i would send my kid to college

9:51

but i care about what major they got and

9:53

i would teach them to to be savvy

9:55

about professors and about the academy

9:57

and agitated

9:59

the

9:59

the last appeal to authority for up

10:02

yeah

10:03

the cosmologist astronomer i know sabine

10:06

hassenfeld the coming on

10:08

the show with their her book on physics posted

10:10

on twitter few months ago us hurt her

10:12

grant to study black

10:15

holes and it's relationship to the origin

10:17

the universe was sent back in

10:20

which the grand in agency said you you

10:22

didn't include a statement about diversity equity

10:24

and inclusion and how this research is gonna

10:26

help people collar and minorities as on

10:29

the posted this on twitter and say what the fuck

10:31

do i say and he was my research

10:33

has nothing to do with this what's the what's

10:35

what's the words i need to plug in there

10:38

this is outrageous

10:41

it is ridiculous michael it is stupid

10:43

and it often doesn't apply the many

10:45

projects too many research projects but

10:47

here's here's what i do to keep myself automatic i

10:50

look at this as a a

10:53

a next step in the loosening

10:55

an opening of institutions in society

10:58

we're trying to appeal to the largest

11:00

possible audience and now to is a

11:02

global audience and

11:05

it's only going to become larger in the short so

11:08

i see this as a a a kind of

11:10

a mass appeal to can have ridiculous consequences

11:13

a desperate attempt at a masterpiece

11:15

no try

11:18

to i tried to be optimistic about it because really it it it

11:20

does seem to me like ideology and it it does

11:22

seem to be having a more negative effect on outgrowth

11:25

something positive but the upside to this

11:27

is i think this is is desperate appeal to the

11:29

try to market your work to everybody try

11:31

to make it a relevant to everybody and of something basically

11:33

getting this has been akin to

11:36

ideologically extreme places

11:38

yeah

11:40

well we desire to the dean of diversity

11:42

equity and inclusion a job in university and

11:44

this this must do colleague liberal

11:47

open friendly nice to pretty

11:49

white or in i i

11:52

don't have never even heard of any well

11:54

somebody painted a swastika somewhere

11:56

on some building a few years ago was like the only one

11:58

of her i'm just one what what

12:00

did these dean's do because

12:02

it seems like college colleges

12:05

universities are amongst the most

12:07

liberal progressive the least likely

12:10

where you're going to encounter neighborhood

12:12

kkk or the proud boys are going to show

12:14

up or anything like that

12:16

so i mean is it

12:18

kind of a virtue signaling look

12:20

we're totally on board with

12:22

the moral progress and we want to do our part

12:24

so we're gonna hire this person to

12:26

show

12:27

are they are other really does incidences

12:29

i don't know about and there's there's bad things

12:31

that happen and we still have a long ways to go

12:35

i think it's easy to forget that

12:38

the intends to our the of human nature

12:41

though we we'd be a foragers trade with

12:43

others but they also raid others and

12:45

there's a lot of violence in forging society the

12:47

very tribalism i think i think

12:49

voices become extremely stable

12:51

and secure and i'm so grateful for these things

12:54

and and i would appeal to work like years of the moral art

12:56

work by pinker hans rosling many

12:58

people several people don't sort not enough i would

13:00

even said what life is

13:02

different now it's stable would secure and

13:05

i think that people nevertheless have that part of their

13:07

their primate heritage that tribalism they

13:10

want to be for the underdog they

13:12

want to fight it

13:14

speaks to something deep it's not just

13:16

mental illness and you know i don't

13:19

forget to this but the the whole trans being is it a social

13:21

contagion you know is what what is it has as it's

13:23

just more accepting environment on

13:25

part of it's citizen more accepting environment part

13:27

is it as it as political identity it's underdog

13:29

i done it's a war

13:32

worth fighting for trans people's

13:34

inclusion you know so so what these

13:36

you ask me where these deals doing your

13:38

help we can further underdog identity which

13:41

is giving people a deep sense of meaning and it's

13:43

giving them a tribal warfare two wage

13:46

the right though

13:48

humans have a moral ah

13:50

sense an outrage over injustice

13:52

and so on and we all feel like we want that

13:55

is a paid but most of the big prizes

13:57

have been nabbed right civil rights women's

13:59

the day right same sex marriage

14:02

the animal rights and so we made so much progress

14:04

that i may be young people coming up

14:06

the pipeline's a while i wanna do something up

14:09

whereas my seventeen seventy six moment

14:11

like the people it's and january sixth

14:13

insurrection said or or i

14:15

want to be like martin luther king jr get out

14:17

there and marts ah ,

14:20

but you know that like the pride

14:22

like the this is pride month and read the pride parade

14:24

was last weekend it no longer

14:27

really a big thing to be gay or lesbian

14:29

anymore as i love that so old school

14:31

now you know that dot wow

14:33

what a i gotta be and where we get a march for

14:35

about tramp though

14:38

maybe that impart explain some of that

14:40

it's always been like this to so marx was

14:43

not i have this is all basically

14:45

it's a your dividing the world into the oppressed in the oppressor

14:48

and and and a reason for people's life circumstances

14:50

because of our external oppression of so

14:52

this is this is just marxism just remain

14:55

reimagine it was always

14:57

like this remarks the outta hell of a time convincing

14:59

the working class and is pissed him off

15:01

and angered him it was the parisian coffee

15:03

houses you know you know the where where the people

15:05

had time to sit back and talk about ideas

15:08

a loved it's it's always

15:11

this this view of the world this this some

15:13

essential is good versus evil view of the world

15:15

highly politicized highly obstructed

15:18

it's very it's always appealed to people

15:20

who i think the hadn't

15:22

had not enough of daily struggle and

15:25

maybe we're looking for some more cosmic more existential

15:27

struggle i don't think this applies to all cases

15:29

but i think this is real important

15:32

thread

15:34

right so well yes

15:38

but there's some point if you're infringing

15:40

on other rights in early one this is part

15:42

of the unit that push back against my trans movement

15:44

that people like abigail schreier and

15:46

i just recorded episode yesterday with helen

15:48

joyce wrote this book contract and

15:51

she's a feminist years ago but now she's

15:53

a turf i guess sense but she's a british

15:55

economist or a mathematician

15:58

that works for the economist she's

16:00

a smart cookie and really did a lot of

16:02

research on this books that are main thesis

16:04

is that you know this is kind of taking

16:07

away he a women's rights would

16:09

have been a women's rights you know this idea that men

16:11

can identify as women and walk into a changing

16:14

room with naked women or a

16:16

spot like the we saw incident here

16:18

in los angeles or prisons

16:20

worse we you know where that you know rape culture

16:22

goes on and you know of course

16:25

than sports you know that so at

16:27

some point you just end up with conflicting rights

16:29

there's the rights of trans yes trans rights

16:31

are human rights yes of course he

16:33

should be fired from your job because you're trans

16:35

yeah okay he of as protests

16:38

but what happens if it's conflict he

16:40

was some other right that was already hard won the

16:42

case women's rights then what are you

16:46

there there is a in a suit

16:48

strain of conservatism in marxism that

16:50

nobody ever talks about they are only

16:53

out manifests here yes i think

16:55

a lot of this what

16:57

you're talking about to be a thomas' there's a

16:59

lot of internalized homophobia

17:01

though if i have a son there can see

17:03

what we would cox having a traditionally conservative

17:06

gender role attitude i have a son

17:08

and my son was play with dolls or were address

17:10

or wear make up the

17:13

that because he's a human who's

17:15

curious about the world any theories

17:17

about expressing some degree that probably

17:19

means he's smart if i have a girl

17:21

that's more of a tomboy that's okay

17:23

girls very and how what

17:26

what sort of activities they like how much the overlap

17:28

with was just doesn't not been my daughter

17:30

is a boy it does not mean my boy

17:32

is a girl it means that there is variance

17:34

in human beings and he

17:36

so i think it's fascinating and this

17:39

ostensibly woke progressive ideology

17:41

you actually have this ordinarily

17:43

rigid view of gender and you'll see the same thing with

17:46

race of six same thing with a lot of their concerns

17:50

i'm but i can get sir you

17:52

know they don't deserve the mantle of liberalism they're not liberals

17:55

they're not the i wouldn't call them progressive there

17:58

they're an inning and

17:59

food i have this pet theory which i have no data

18:02

for although i can begin to an electric

18:04

said the last survey we did

18:06

the

18:07

the question that pertain to the spot the

18:09

going to look at the relationship between

18:11

very vocal than out

18:13

rather extreme ideological leftists

18:16

and the degree to which they were raised religious

18:19

but became the feast or

18:21

became secular they have

18:23

the sort of religious way of looking at the world

18:25

as a centralized good versus evil dichotomy

18:27

sort of way of looking at the world but

18:29

it's soren over the religious cosmology

18:34

religious dogma the supernatural police christianity

18:37

percent they maintained the surest

18:39

way of looking at the world

18:41

and they're pissed off because their parents

18:43

try to shove religion down their throat and so they feel

18:46

that powers oppressive and they have all these intuitions

18:48

about how the world it's really just

18:50

a function of secular nation it's people coming

18:52

out of strict religious traditions

18:54

and trying to interpret the world and doing it and

18:56

pseudo religious way

18:58

almost components

19:00

that thirty years because it's buried

19:02

the rise of the nuns we

19:04

were all hope hopefully i'm hoping they would

19:06

join the skeptic society and subscribe discover

19:08

magazine and and support richard dawkins foundation

19:11

and and so forth but it looks like maybe

19:13

their efforts and i thought well some of them are go to

19:15

deepak chopra becomes western buddhist

19:17

or something like that now looks like to go into

19:19

the you know the blm anti racism

19:22

religion as john mcwhorter cause it's or

19:24

as you to said the kind of woke progressive religion

19:27

it is kind of a religion right the mean without the

19:29

supernatural

19:31

yeah this is another thing like over this is

19:33

changed so that you know as

19:35

technology changes as as as transportation

19:38

technology changes in communication technology so

19:40

the to three or more decentralized there

19:42

isn't going to be a localized her to that everybody goes

19:45

through it's gonna be decentralized it's can be and

19:47

know across university campuses are across media

19:49

outlets or something like that

19:51

it's not going to be supernatural anymore it's

19:54

it's impossible to growth and twenty twenty two

19:56

and go to the doctor when you get sick

19:58

our our

19:59

the have an i phone that has the world at your fingertips

20:02

it's impossible to live in this world is technocratic

20:04

world the and be intensely

20:06

supernatural day today will still find it

20:08

but the rates are gonna be going down my

20:11

my argument is that we have to look at religion and

20:13

i and and every and out a deep historical

20:15

sense and and op and how is it changes

20:17

eighteen hundreds them because it

20:19

course it will have there's no reasonably the the religion

20:21

today will look like the religion or five hundred years

20:24

though i do get a lot of pushback when

20:26

i when i characterize i'm political ideologies

20:28

in general is potentially religious left or right but

20:31

to push back is always credit if they're always assuming

20:33

that religion as to stay static are

20:36

we going to be a church and i was going to be supernatural that

20:38

this is like you know that's how religion was

20:41

does not have religion isn't that when will be

20:43

it's more like

20:45

maybe a political aid ideology or a

20:47

kind of a tribal the collective

20:50

that has a core set of the

20:53

leave this is what we believe in

20:55

of the here's the twelve things if you take ten

20:57

of i'm you're you're you're in our try the

20:59

you don't need that outside supernatural imploded

21:02

so and then what does that mean

21:04

it means what it social capital makes me feel

21:06

like i'm part of a movement that's

21:09

gonna affect change that's good for

21:11

society and i get to be part of it it

21:14

is something like that

21:16

him and i think it has what to do with identity verification

21:18

i think we have ideal self i

21:21

think it's hard to think of our ideal selves without

21:23

going beyond who we actually are to

21:26

be the real more moral than we probably are more

21:28

honest and we really are said

21:29

the

21:30

and it can be covered with religious garden you have with

21:32

political guard it

21:35

is it becomes a problem when when it

21:37

gets tied it is our group for nice to be defeated

21:39

and and demolished and overwhelmed that

21:42

that's good work it's bad but i think we all have

21:44

a deal as cells are there it's just not all religious

21:46

or politico the almighty yourself of

21:48

we would have to do with my family my kids are taken

21:51

care of my parents in all i

21:53

would have to consciously do that because i can get all politically round

21:55

up to an and feel superior are you know but

21:58

it's it's a

22:00

this isn't good for you

22:02

yeah

22:03

the i am worried about the extreme

22:06

polarization of the last few years it does seem

22:08

like it's worse is that is or sociological

22:10

date on that i'm it's the i'm old enough

22:12

to remember watergate and nineteen sixty eight

22:14

and boy was contentious back then and

22:16

then you read about the president just the jefferson

22:19

thomas jefferson and john adams they hated

22:21

each other you i said to the third sept eighteen

22:23

hundred was horrible is it really worse

22:25

now is that recent see a fact we have dated

22:28

it really quantify that

22:31

the elite polarization he's

22:33

getting is most obviously worse

22:35

you can find study is wear a mask polarization

22:37

so by oh he would i mean i me now i

22:41

mean people who work in media and

22:43

politicians for the most part what what

22:45

we mean by least day and and an

22:48

education education media and

22:50

politicians it seems that people in those

22:53

running those institutions were i love isn't those

22:55

instructions are becoming more polarized because

22:58

their job to well

23:00

let's say it's not their job or it's become their

23:02

job unfortunately to

23:04

monetize v or

23:07

character and bad intentions of

23:09

their adversaries

23:11

the

23:13

but nasa it's it's it's not it's not

23:15

most people's job to do that it's most people's jobs

23:17

show up and put in a good eight hours

23:19

whatever that is filling in excel sheet or digging

23:22

it did it doesn't matter but event a to go

23:24

home to their kids and i'm it's

23:26

and their job isn't to monetize

23:29

the these soak the apparent

23:31

sinfulness of the other a political

23:33

tribe and so i read polarization

23:35

seems to be ah increasing more than

23:38

mass polarization in fact we have some data on

23:40

that from a skeptic research center which we can talk

23:42

about that were we so that the our

23:44

our we have tolerance measures you know so

23:46

we as democrats what's the

23:48

up party opposite you and they say okay

23:50

republicans are the party opposite of

23:52

i would you feel if a republican was dating

23:55

and a family member of yours how would you feel of a

23:57

republican moved in next door to you how would you

23:59

feel for republicans

23:59

elected official and the

24:02

level of intolerance is very low most people

24:04

are taller

24:05

and this is a representative sample of the population

24:08

we can't find high levels of

24:10

to start chopping them up by how extreme left

24:12

the or how extreme expertise look at a representative

24:14

sample they're not at all if other things to care about

24:17

and frankly

24:18

you know

24:19

you have to be able to interact at all kinds of people

24:22

in life i think the ability to to occupy

24:24

specialized nieces and good specialize restaurants

24:26

and that is that the decision to be correlated with

24:29

incomes and be correlated class this elite

24:31

class it's keep coming so polarized

24:33

i think i think everyday people have a hard time

24:35

avoiding those that they disagree with you gotta get

24:37

along with it so i so i would

24:39

have would have question into

24:42

the as if he has the same questions of

24:44

let's say the fox news journalists said the

24:46

cnn journalists or people at the

24:48

wall street journal who are journalists at the new

24:50

york times or you as members

24:53

of congress the how you feel if

24:55

your son or daughter were dating somebody in the other

24:57

party i guess as you probably would then

24:59

find more polarization right that those

25:01

daily

25:04

the and a get a good article on

25:06

a sculpture listen dehumanization

25:08

there is some evidence of dehumanization you

25:11

can find it in the masses you can find on that leads by

25:14

it's there is a concern i didn't

25:16

get much more concern among the weeds and it's just going slow

25:18

down our political process but it's because mean

25:22

yeah

25:23

they talked about the the hatred of obama

25:26

and the mean that it was race related wealth

25:28

where exactly h is that it was an

25:30

easy trick in the bag to call all of the

25:32

opposition to obama race it was a cheater

25:35

it was a money grab and it was wrong because

25:38

humans are more complicated than that the

25:40

even the so called conservatives the

25:43

so called you nine redneck conservatives they're

25:45

not all races they look at the world

25:48

in a different way to live a different life there

25:50

was a responsibility to describe that in the pub

25:53

yeah

25:54

well journalism used to be kind of a

25:56

are working class job in the thirties

25:58

and forties and then it became

26:00

an elite job as india

26:03

to have a degree from ajay school and

26:05

elite j schools and and and

26:07

that land you in the new york times or for

26:10

a c b s or whatever yeah

26:12

so that's that's a different kind of problem

26:14

on the trans issue okay so here's the

26:16

debate is it really a social contagion

26:19

or is it that the

26:21

society's becoming much more open

26:23

in and liberal and therefore these

26:25

people are now able to come out in the real

26:27

number really is not one

26:29

tenth of one percent but more like three

26:32

percent or whatever and

26:34

yet how do we know what what it is

26:36

or what combination it could be

26:39

that's a good question somebody

26:41

like abigail shire has done a good job documenting

26:43

the socialization influences

26:46

the kid

26:47

regarding this issue so

26:50

i think it's it's the any know

26:52

the vatican of research you want you

26:54

also want longitudinal research on a track these

26:56

kids over time you know that's the easiest way to show

26:58

if this is a this

27:01

is a genuine difference in sexual

27:03

expression which i'm open to actually i actually

27:05

think that the parties are becoming

27:07

more impersonal more anonymous

27:10

as they grow larger the and

27:12

maybe one adaptation to that is becoming more bisexual

27:14

become more food sexual you know it

27:16

even harder to establish strong bonds

27:18

with people there now one way to

27:20

do it more acutely is to sexuality

27:23

than and i think this is something that evolutionary

27:26

sociologists you know the two of them that exist should

27:28

think about evolutionary psychologists

27:30

to sexuality is a potent

27:32

way to establish to establish it's a way to establish

27:34

upon quick and fast and

27:36

and meaningful

27:37

so it's bisexuality

27:40

might be a means of social cohesion

27:42

and an increasingly large an anonymous and despair

27:44

society toronto canada possible

27:46

the i think i think honestly you need wanted to know research

27:49

he to look at the socialization influences

27:52

then you need to look at you know what kids getting

27:55

from this you know good and bad on

27:57

are they able to make friends easier when they say there

28:00

stuff like that you know

28:02

it it's not about their self identification

28:04

so much as the consequences of identification on their

28:06

social that

28:07

the morning what right now we're just focusing basically ornamental

28:10

help us

28:12

right he if you you identify

28:15

if you're by yourself in your room you

28:17

don't tell anybody then

28:19

that cuts you off from the social glue

28:22

that you get from interacting

28:24

so so much of the superior to happen online

28:26

and the social media communities where

28:29

it be no point in coming out as whatever

28:31

if no one knows me kind of the whole point

28:33

it seems to me is that i get to tell other

28:35

people about it then you get love bombed yeah

28:38

i'll use a courageous and and you know

28:40

you're so wonderful and open

28:42

and in and week a week to encourage this so that

28:45

encouraged and other people can see that the

28:47

how to social contagion think that it takes off

28:50

and damn yeah so i ever

28:53

have friend and colleague who's

28:55

the that be couple have

28:58

it's with the see a nineteen year old and twenty

29:00

three year old both of whom were two women two

29:02

girls one

29:05

is decided she's gay and the other ones decided she's

29:07

trans and of course that of

29:09

down wanted to talk to the of course we love

29:11

you except it whatever you are what

29:14

are you know you sure and beyond so i'm just

29:16

as a few questions and that was like oh mom

29:18

years than everybody in the class the

29:20

something it's like it feel to be a standard

29:23

straight person would be yes thought

29:25

that is so boring men who wants

29:27

to do that the that

29:29

would you that that kind of a you know data

29:31

point in the social contagion explanation

29:34

rather than biology

29:36

yeah and i think

29:39

there might be another issue here which is that we're not

29:41

really teaching people very much in school and

29:43

college or or passing people through and

29:45

those people become teachers and

29:48

maybe even at k to twelve it becomes easier

29:50

to be a a slogan here the

29:52

a purveyor slogans and a purveyor of causes

29:55

been a purveyor of knowledge

29:56

though i mean i see i'm a professor with as people

29:58

through all the time it was

30:00

the tsunami universe ever seen

30:02

this is it it's called credential inflation

30:05

it's a it's some something happening robots

30:07

the consequence of that is is that our kids will

30:09

suffer there are going to get less rigorous education

30:11

and i i've learned that were education

30:14

is less rigorous you get a lot of slogans on a causes

30:16

of said come up all over the place where interesting

30:18

how they compensate for another though

30:20

there there's nothing in a guy i think there's just a lot going

30:23

on i i think the rubber meets

30:25

the road when you have read

30:27

also with right the is a women's

30:29

sports i think that's a clear where

30:33

something that might be an expression of greater

30:35

love of humanity and mean we get the declaration

30:37

of human rights relatively recently the

30:39

idea bubbling up an eighteen hundreds you

30:41

know how is it so different for little kid to say

30:43

i love everybody god this idea that

30:46

they can be romantic and everybody is a girl it's almost like

30:48

it the dissemination

30:50

of that basic philosophical concept so that's the nice

30:52

side that the good side but if

30:55

we become too

30:57

the

30:58

so do we on the phobic about this and we believe

31:00

that any boy who expresses any

31:02

trait that we would call feminine is therefore a girl

31:04

instead of just

31:06

boy different from what other girls different

31:09

we start infringing on people's rights

31:11

doesn't it becomes a problem and

31:13

i think you're gonna get out i started you exactly

31:16

i'm saying like or i just think of the larger mainstream

31:18

media has been a terrible job a perfect

31:21

yeah

31:23

yeah especially since you get called up the

31:25

transfer but you don't completely support

31:27

whatever the ideology

31:29

is address on it makes his point he can he can

31:31

make a better because he's a gay guys you know

31:33

that he's worried about these young men

31:35

that usa in their thirteen fourteen year old

31:38

thirteen year old and they find themselves attracted other

31:40

boys then he's worried

31:42

that teachers are telling them or school nurses

31:44

or whatever you know you're not that homosexual

31:47

you you might be you know as gender dysphoric

31:49

you might deepest secrets of he owed a girl inside

31:52

the hand in i undressed point as a

31:54

look we spent a staff a century fighting

31:56

for gay rights and now it's okay you

31:59

can be gays really okay with

32:01

this and a so you know that suits

32:03

that that's is by what happened the gays and lesbians

32:05

you know that the lesbians even more

32:08

i guess sir kind of disappearing

32:11

the people that are really pushing gender stereotypes

32:13

are now our liberal journalist

32:16

academics that boys are this and girls

32:18

are this anybody who knows the data there's

32:20

a spectrum there there's if there's different means

32:22

the around a variety of traits but

32:25

better so much overlap and so

32:27

a and in a classroom full of boys you're

32:30

going to get an incredible spectrum of behavior an interest

32:32

in a classroom full of girls in england credible spectrum

32:34

that doesn't mean the one is the boys or girls

32:36

and girls or boys it doesn't mean that we don't have to impose

32:38

those categories i

32:41

think you i think most people to notice intuitively

32:43

it's it's academic jargon that that pushes us

32:45

toward the possibility that were wrong

32:49

this idea that genders whatever

32:51

you wanted to be is you know he does

32:53

there's this movie map else is movie i've seen

32:55

it yet what is a woman regarded as

32:58

a milion apple is kind of thing we're in a puts

33:00

the camera on people and he does a little bit

33:02

of a gotcha where these these academics

33:04

and in an activist can't answer

33:07

the question what is a woman's

33:09

rights so if it is whatever it is you

33:11

say it is then if you're up

33:14

a male and you want to transition

33:16

to be in be female what is it you're transitioning

33:18

to if

33:21

you if you just said there is no definition

33:23

then why bother with the point

33:26

there's a social construction isn't that salafism

33:28

has it's it's incredible sought history that's been

33:30

allowed a person this

33:33

in academia it's incredible it is

33:35

it not allowed to have some else could

33:37

survive no i haven't seen that was

33:39

is a documentary i've heard about it the

33:41

previews i

33:43

read or not is that he is

33:46

not quite like a my lover a seems to be a more serious

33:48

person and and more earnest personal having milo

33:50

is kind of and it for the for the true for the trolling

33:53

and yet it's an important topic and and

33:55

and really liked his idea of going to tribes

33:57

forger groups and are

33:59

just more the cultural society society

34:01

the give us a little bit of a snapshot of what

34:03

life might have like until recently and

34:05

you see that are this ideology makes no

34:07

sense

34:09

here

34:10

the

34:11

imagine jokes half jokingly the two of

34:13

you who apply evolutionary theory

34:15

that sociological problems

34:18

and theories why is that why

34:20

why is darwin not penetrated or

34:22

evolutionary psychology evolutionary sociobiology

34:24

into sociology

34:28

for the same reason that it hasn't penetrated a evangel

34:30

christianity or any fundamentalists faith a

34:33

the more important is to you to

34:35

change the world tomorrow right now

34:37

because otherwise rafa

34:39

the less you want to believe that

34:42

there are structures and strictures

34:44

and limitations and weaknesses

34:47

and faults and cracks

34:50

and deep problems and human nature

34:53

that makes such the immediate

34:55

progress unlikely or possibly

34:58

not

34:59

realistic it depends

35:01

on what your causes it depends on

35:03

depends

35:04

how fast you want to to happen

35:06

it depends on what sort of

35:09

this is how radical you're willing to be i

35:11

but i think having said that you

35:13

know

35:15

the

35:15

this we also shows us that despite being

35:17

so tribal despite being so

35:20

i'm office and our social organization

35:23

the

35:23

we are capable of seeing humanity and people

35:26

that are maximum distant from us

35:28

that's an incredible trade mark moffett

35:30

who who i hispanics you cent of the

35:32

smith you know him he got he

35:34

is your college

35:36

market point out that it's impossible

35:38

for a chimpanzee to go into a

35:40

room with unknown chimpanzees so

35:42

there will be chimpanzee starbucks or shims,

35:44

come in and out and they don't each and there were

35:49

able to fundamentally understand a

35:51

deep sense of shared this, a

35:53

deep sense of wenis and and

35:55

it's so deep that it can be kind of subtle consciously,

35:57

you know, i don't walk into starbucks and think all these raw humans

35:59

what am i i just i just know i

36:02

and isn't part of that can do ya i'm

36:04

in my society or whatever but ill

36:06

people saw the time that they can take up and moved to other

36:09

societies and within a couple months

36:11

or maybe a couple years they have that same

36:13

feeling a wiener so on

36:15

yeah i think

36:16

our nature is flexible

36:18

what we have a nature then we had linux

36:21

and we are biases we have tendencies and

36:24

the more you want to change the world tomorrow the more active

36:26

as you are unless you want to believe that

36:28

unfortunately evolutionary theory

36:31

implies all kinds of faults and weaknesses

36:33

and biases that would make immediate change difficult

36:36

are unlikely your maybe even wrongheaded

36:38

on our and like maybe we don't really

36:40

understand what makes people happy

36:42

and our political ideologies are not a good insight

36:45

into that and we're actually you know there's a straight saying

36:47

of course the road to hell is paved with good intentions

36:49

this is the most in get from the bible

36:51

if i'm not mistaken something like that but

36:53

but it's it's it's it's it's is a lot of true today

36:57

yeah right so you know picker

36:59

makes the point that there can't be a blank

37:01

slate because the environment as to operate

37:03

on some structure that you

37:05

have the brain is does the physical that

37:08

being that i'm his fist physical oregon made

37:10

of stuff and in and we know house built

37:12

who jeans and son there has to be a genetic component

37:15

i guess what you're saying is that the fear by

37:17

let's say social activists is that if there's

37:19

any added component and

37:22

genes take too long to change we're not going to get

37:24

our as social change we want next

37:26

week if it's gonna take ten years

37:28

or twenty years to get their through slower

37:31

me

37:32

in not his jeans which is biases

37:34

cognitive distortions select confirmation bias

37:37

is going to make it harder to be right about

37:39

what policy be should have that's gonna be to for

37:41

liberals gonna make them harder to be right

37:43

to for conservatives to make them harder to be right so

37:46

if i may passionate conservative are passionate liberal

37:48

i'm sure about what policies we need to do and i'm all

37:50

riled up

37:51

i need to account for all of these and there's

37:53

a sweet advice users hundreds of by seasonal

37:55

depending on how much we want to parse

37:57

the you gotta come for all that shit

37:59

the for

37:59

you should be as confident

38:02

as you are imposing this policy on society

38:04

the better be damn sure the you know what you're talking about and

38:07

and i think evolutionary theory is

38:09

is what's causing us to focus

38:11

on the importance of these biases and how they distort

38:13

us because social construction as much as say

38:16

the products

38:17

the of i just read the right media and

38:19

i read the right writers been i know true

38:21

it's a very subtly flattering believed

38:24

to be a social construction is but it's not sure

38:28

right so this is the point conservatives

38:30

make that i the tend to

38:32

agree with that kind of bercy and edgar burke

38:35

and conservativism sorry ah that

38:38

you know we spent centuries or

38:40

even millennia developing these social

38:43

institutions and structures which you are

38:45

books feel lot with before

38:47

we just burn the whole system down and from

38:49

away list let's look at what work

38:52

keep the ones that work and then lightly

38:55

legally slowly gradually change

38:57

as it's the ones that need fixing abolish

39:00

slavery and torture and so on and

39:02

so forth and will get there but be

39:04

careful

39:06

i can i can put a fine point on your point michael

39:09

during the summer twenty twenty riot

39:12

the amount or defended least was

39:14

everywhere are you had democrat

39:16

congress people

39:18

hurting at yad academics parenting and

39:21

on twitter

39:22

an actual survey of african americans so

39:24

that eighty one percent why did nothing

39:26

it in the right actually several surveys show something similar

39:29

and want nothing to do it definitely doesn't make

39:31

sense right what why would you take way because they

39:33

want incremental reform obviously and

39:35

they wanted to be dated her obviously so

39:38

you know this the about now

39:40

incremental reform data driven incremental

39:42

reform and and and arms out

39:45

across partisan debate so

39:47

much was energizing there's so much less emotional

39:49

energy than d from the police smash those motherfuckers

39:52

right so you know it's not be virtuous

39:55

to have that feeling of we're going to chase is right

39:57

now and i estimate virtuous it's dangerous

40:00

and and the people who have who stand the most

40:02

to lose will tell you that

40:06

yeah my line of that is it you know

40:09

it in activists slogan you know what are we want

40:11

slow gradual legal teams when do we wanted

40:13

eventually says no one's going to get

40:15

out of their chair and good evidence to city hall the

40:17

march for that but

40:20

but us reality in on this that's that's the reality

40:22

of yeah yeah

40:24

yeah oh , well

40:26

yeah no task you may that point the know that defined

40:29

the police just handed it over to toots

40:31

fox news and hannity and carlson

40:33

uses gave away to the

40:35

far right you know

40:37

their what yeah that's what really needs to be

40:39

done right them in so other me discover

40:42

that since you you are a top before you got into

40:44

academia right i forget how many years

40:46

you

40:47

you did that is it is a job i should

40:49

clarify our to clarify so i've i

40:51

was a police cadet at a at a police department

40:53

and then i went to a police academy so from that

40:55

experience i was a not a sworn officer

40:58

i thought it was a new cspan so i went to a police

41:00

academy in monterey graduated from please carry

41:02

on went back to that department for about three

41:04

months

41:05

and i got accepted to college in northern

41:07

california nowhere

41:09

though a police officer and only the most surface

41:11

sense but yes i went through an academy award

41:13

it it apart and for short

41:16

in in quell it but then

41:18

you did study criminology and

41:20

and that you know why crimea insurgency allergy

41:22

of crime then you know in

41:25

other all other research on the decline

41:27

of crime since the early nineties

41:29

what ninety three or so on the sides

41:31

and and what and and rapes and and

41:34

of burglaries and science but now there's

41:36

been an uptick sense what twenty

41:38

nineteen twenty nineteen so

41:41

how do you think about that what's the cause of the septic

41:44

as it's just a temporary blip in

41:46

their overall downward trending

41:48

curves of the decline of violence or howdy

41:52

i think anytime we're looking at a trend like gun

41:54

violence rate of violence we always

41:56

need to take advil am a long

41:58

term view and by

41:59

term i mean maybe five ten years and i mean really

42:02

long term but many of these

42:04

sorts of distributions of behavior pretty

42:06

rare behavior like homicide they are

42:08

sought to to distributions so depending

42:10

on the year you look at it's going up and and going down

42:12

but if is zoom out you see this long term

42:14

decline even though it's it's sought to throughout

42:17

so on is this attack

42:20

or a substantial unlike what was on

42:22

the nineteen eighties maybe

42:24

i don't know i think that what

42:27

we should be doing a social scientists social

42:30

noting the increase on and

42:34

growing on our existing explanations for what might

42:36

be going on here and i'm looking

42:38

to historical

42:40

are examples of the so in

42:42

the nineteen sixties you had similar

42:44

i don't know for some i needed something to talk

42:46

about but you had riots the

42:48

and you also a rise in crime

42:51

i think you know economic recessions

42:53

tend to be associated with rises in crime and

42:56

inflation it inflationary

42:58

peers and to be associated with rising crime unemployment

43:00

has to be associated with rising crime

43:02

the disruption in people's routine

43:04

activities as

43:07

, they can cause all kinds of

43:09

fall out and in many different ways you know if

43:11

you as hard get along with your wife before him and

43:13

he got to spend all day with our analyses just

43:15

things the superficial things like this where maybe

43:18

a divorce happens when it wouldn't have otherwise and raises

43:20

the stress and economic stress

43:22

of the person of the think we we would we

43:25

just wanna

43:26

hold off on being too confident on whether network

43:28

i'm sure the journal or a d around

43:30

magazine articles will be you know try and

43:32

the spiking and has gone up forever and and is super

43:35

predators were probably get more of these narratives

43:37

the down

43:38

as when the ninety nineties taught us was

43:40

the crime can drop like iraq

43:42

the

43:43

we really we still live in

43:46

arguably

43:47

the most peaceful period in american history is not as peaceful

43:49

as five years ago but the most peaceful general eric

43:51

editor

43:52

our decades so crimes

43:54

to relatively low that's the first thing it is

43:57

going on but we have existing

43:59

explanations

43:59

try to grapple with that and it doesn't

44:02

mean that it can't start to go back down

44:04

the

44:05

the economy recovers and people

44:07

go back to work and day

44:09

start living there every eighteen months before

44:11

the pandemic

44:13

so yeah when i don't know the answer for you michael

44:16

yeah well i am not sure anybody

44:18

does but you know there might be and availability

44:20

heuristic affect their works you

44:22

know in certain cities chicago portland

44:25

seattle and a few others where there's a big

44:27

spike in crime in

44:29

homicides and gun shootings and

44:31

that's what makes the news of course we it's

44:33

but if you're walking around some quiet city

44:35

that doesn't have that it is you should

44:37

not be worried about getting shot as you're walking

44:39

down the sidewalk and so

44:42

it's it's it's it's maybe there's a power law

44:44

like you know ninety percent of the uptake can

44:46

be accounted for by ten percent of the places

44:48

where it happens and the other

44:50

ninety percent of the places there's no object

44:54

exactly and criminology research shows this

44:56

actually that in a place like chicago

44:58

in any given neighborhood in chicago it's it's

45:00

about five percent young males

45:03

who are causing eighty to ninety percent of so

45:06

yes it it it's of it's a rare event crime

45:08

is a rare event am committed by the

45:12

people

45:12

so when it does go up it's really hard to fit

45:14

to put your thumb on why it is because it's

45:17

so few people driving at relative to the population

45:20

the vpn

45:22

the have been writing about gun control

45:24

i believe there should be gun control i

45:26

think people should be licensed and so on so

45:29

forth and and but honestly

45:31

i have no idea of anything anybody's

45:33

proposing to do like

45:35

any difference at all and he another

45:38

step four hundred million guns in america

45:40

what it's hundred twenty gun per hundred people

45:42

so the way to have one hundred million guns

45:45

and you know did not never going to be a buyback

45:47

or attorney and like in australia just

45:50

not gonna happen here you'd have waco and

45:52

and ruby ridge every weekend at

45:54

least those people's it just go out and try

45:56

to come get my guns or it's it would be

45:59

catastrophic in in a most

46:01

people are law abiding they don't issue

46:03

people with their guns and they keep i'm locked up and saw

46:06

on it's only the criminals i know the argue i'm

46:08

curious know what you think is there any hope

46:11

to do anything maybe reduce the card

46:13

is a little bit odd are no is just to me i just some

46:15

place while taught my

46:17

the stuff

46:19

first about a gun buybacks in the cities

46:21

where this has been tried oakland

46:24

for example rich men they're different cities it

46:26

turns out the people turning their broken guns

46:28

they they they don't give you their guns because

46:30

the don't work i can to keep it has that worked out

46:33

of so up an owner of living

46:36

the

46:37

what do you do okay so your point about

46:39

the prevalence of guns in a population i think

46:41

is very very substantial

46:44

the it means that if we stop selling guns tomorrow

46:46

if somehow we banned the sale of guns and

46:48

and and we would be absolutely regulated

46:50

at to perfection you still have

46:53

more than one gun for every person and person

46:55

and and states so did

46:57

the dispersion of guns the diffusion of guns

46:59

that that is already in place is a huge

47:02

problem in terms of what we can do

47:04

i think if you're see if you look

47:06

at democrat and republican voters

47:08

they agree on a lot the actually agree on

47:10

quite a bit it's it's the elite

47:12

politicians who are magnified

47:14

disagreements

47:16

universal background checks

47:19

some kind of red flag law

47:21

these sorts of things on a regulating

47:24

the magazine size most americans

47:26

agree on the sex

47:27

the and

47:29

you know i isn't just a matter of some

47:32

sort of critical masses

47:33

shootings

47:35

we get serious about it

47:37

maybe

47:38

sometimes these things change when it's

47:40

a very salient person whose child was killed

47:42

like a celebrity symbol of celebratory

47:45

really want to say it but symbol

47:47

of celebrity as a child in there and they're shot

47:49

very visceral way in as caught on social media

47:51

it's caught on video that's the kind

47:53

of thing that i think would move the needle your unfortunately

47:55

it it takes something very emotionally salient culturally

47:58

so me to do

47:59

the why did

47:59

where'd you issue and and we also to be clear

48:02

that is very rare this is mass shootings are extremely

48:05

rare thank goodness

48:06

they're talked about a lot on media during

48:08

a recession devastating the absolutely

48:11

should be addressed legislatively but they're rare

48:13

they are they're rare we're talking about point zero

48:15

zero one percent of the male population is

48:17

doing this so there's that

48:19

to do we have to keep perspective

48:22

yeah there's been i've heard some arguments about you know show

48:25

the pictures of these children in

48:27

uvalde a because apparently it's just

48:29

horrible car to make you can't even recognize

48:31

who the kids are this is just you know

48:33

it's just a massive meet as the

48:35

horror than the argument is

48:37

that your m when emmett till was killed

48:40

his mother sell the the funeral

48:42

an open casket the people get

48:44

actually see what they did was body

48:47

works

48:48

the people were like oh my god had no idea

48:50

what this looks like you can't

48:52

find some pictures i i found some

48:54

in china they execute

48:56

people by firing squad where the head is just

48:58

like blown off the top is like

49:00

that they had is gone from a single rifle

49:03

shot like holy crap

49:05

actually included is in my gun control powerpoint

49:07

just in a room full of

49:09

guns firing conservatives of these debates i

49:11

was doing with john lots headlights

49:13

this is what it looks like are you sure you

49:16

want you know every tom dick and harry walking around

49:18

with that power to do that in order to this

49:20

is what it in it's very visceral and

49:23

you know i've shotguns i grew up with with a shotguns

49:25

my my stepdad was a hunter a

49:27

so we had twenty gauge shotgun and

49:29

twelve gay shotguns and it'll be begun and pellet

49:31

gun and all that stuff and you know shooting a gun

49:34

is very visceral i mean is that you know the kick

49:36

and the noise it's just incredible what

49:38

these things people were doing that

49:40

and the others it's so much of the debate is a ton

49:42

of an intellectual here's my six

49:45

arguments and you counter with your arguments and

49:47

that boy when you really get down to then

49:50

i was thinking about guns as a proxy for something

49:52

else so from your sociological priests

49:54

and psychological perspective since

49:56

i get in america anyway as that a

49:59

gun is far more then what it's been portrayed

50:01

as it represents freedom and liberty

50:03

autonomy and i don't know what people still

50:06

don't seem to think buy guns like they think about cars

50:08

each is licensed drivers course spend

50:11

on any should restrict people from flying

50:13

airplanes gotta have the trainee of course

50:16

the an honor that's something different

50:19

yeah i think i think there's a lot to be said for what

50:22

armed people give us heirlooms and

50:24

their cultures i think a culture

50:26

where guns are heirlooms tells you something deep

50:28

about with these things are and what they represent

50:31

and when people say they're using it for protection we gotta

50:33

think production for what

50:34

their families for their homes

50:37

for their properties

50:38

the thing that route them to their very been

50:41

the that's but the you're absolutely right

50:44

michael a as many of these things are their

50:46

their symbols for something else are place holders are

50:48

metaphors i think as absolutely happening

50:50

and i realizing the academy speaking economy

50:53

that

50:53

everybody generic sent me an

50:55

arab i am in most the people i talked to in there

50:57

had gotten guns as as airlines

51:00

and a grandfather from a father

51:03

yeah and and a been shown how to shoot it

51:05

by a family member the did this gun

51:07

as a as a the symbol

51:09

of connection and i'm that's

51:11

part of the liberals don't get id

51:13

departed that big concert is don't get and

51:16

that you know it's it's it's it's a matter

51:19

access

51:20

people are depressed and angry and hope

51:22

was an easy to access guns are just everywhere

51:24

you can have a lot more shootings a ministers transparently

51:27

obvious and and that's something you have to

51:29

deal with legislative we somehow

51:31

though it's i think actually liberals and conservatives

51:34

are talking passage as as they are

51:36

most often

51:38

yeah

51:39

yeah one of these debates i

51:42

got the impression from the audience it is

51:44

a figure forty five thousand people die by gun

51:46

homicide suicide accident more

51:49

than cars and saw and ah

51:51

it better getting pressure would amount exactly as

51:53

exactly person new whatever was four hundred thousand

51:55

the year like would matter what

51:58

if it with terrorists you know was a forty

52:00

thousand deaths from terrorists you know equivalent of overt

52:02

you know what eleven twelve nine eleven's

52:05

in one year conservatives would

52:07

lose their minds i mean they would be a triple

52:10

the budget for the homeland security this

52:12

is basically taught me to put the constitution

52:14

and all it's rights on on ice for a while

52:17

until we get to the bottom of this problem and

52:19

they you know basically cancel all the amendments except

52:21

the second one as i joked the

52:23

first it's to of excellence

52:26

but you know it is a good as a different problem

52:28

why is it that if if the three

52:30

hundred americans die from terrorism the

52:33

conservatives go crazy but if it's forty thousand

52:36

people from guns well as to

52:41

the question it's a it's just about their basic

52:44

fires in terms of what their prioritizing

52:46

i think damn it it's it's

52:48

not an easy problem solved by

52:50

you mention the media and on the pictures

52:52

of the carnage that these things can do

52:54

i think it helps you something as serious

52:56

the country is about dealing with problems

52:58

by how they talk about them happy to pick

53:01

i mean you you can't even swear

53:03

our news programs aren't

53:05

showing mutilated pictures of bodies

53:07

would be says now

53:08

like were children

53:11

a a big part of this debate will be visceral

53:13

it's not going to be i it's not going to be abstract and

53:15

about logical argument agents can be visceral then

53:18

it's gonna be about the ceiling and cultural figure that

53:20

suffers this that we can identify with doc so

53:23

i do think the media we should go for the shooter

53:26

but but we should be very very transparent

53:28

with the public about the consequences of this

53:31

and it's gonna it's gonna horrify

53:33

people one's gonna make them sick and need

53:36

yeah the thing about the

53:38

development of your through your the so bigger theory

53:41

about the development of human culture and institutions

53:43

and and , forth in your two books

53:46

books slit let's start with apes

53:48

and to mention you know where apes basically for

53:51

by people primates and we

53:53

evolved in the small bands of a couple

53:55

dozen individuals and

53:58

the and then he transitions it would see the

54:00

end of the iceman it was murdered

54:02

and and how chimps are very

54:04

violent and saw it's i do we go from there

54:06

to where we are now what kinds of institutions

54:10

and other social technologies evolved

54:13

and how did that happen

54:15

okay so

54:18

the answer to this question comes from a strange

54:20

place it's childrearing and childbirth

54:24

though humans on the gestational

54:26

cared for human beings something like

54:28

fifteen eighteen months it's hard to know for sure

54:30

because they have to come out at nine months because size of

54:32

the training

54:33

the large it's to watch the birkenau

54:35

though human beings are born premature

54:38

the canaries to have a while

54:40

and were in l a sense you know where they can get up

54:43

and stumble around basically you know human babies

54:45

can't even lift their own ads

54:48

so what that means is that in order for

54:50

a species survive

54:52

then we can talk about why that is what

54:54

what what why humans are

54:57

born so premature their lot he's going

54:59

on but

55:00

given that birds that

55:02

the

55:03

and i think this has been most interesting we made by stephanie

55:05

president has a student francois

55:08

she has done great work on this

55:09

but but the ideas is that would it with a child

55:12

that dependent you cannot have aggressive

55:14

selfish narcissistic males

55:16

parading around

55:18

the or impregnating a bunch of different

55:20

women becoming very impulsive we

55:22

violent it's just doesn't work you have

55:25

to prioritize that little creature

55:27

so what you get is a pride because it so so

55:30

pathetic physically right and

55:32

but but but but but ah harboring

55:34

so much cognitive potential which

55:37

is which is why it's so on are

55:41

vulnerable at young age so

55:43

yeah i mean that there was a process of

55:45

domestication

55:47

richard wrangham is dumb work on us

55:48

the you had to you had to domesticate

55:51

human beings humans had a soft domesticate we had

55:53

to kill or find a way

55:55

to dissuade on

55:58

ah aggressive awesome

55:59

they all types aggressive a type of

56:02

males were violent unselfish now

56:05

there are ways to do this biologically which is killing them

56:08

christopher bones work moral origins suggested

56:10

that

56:11

what we do

56:12

the other thing you can do is you you develop norms

56:14

that it is practical like one is called demand

56:17

share

56:18

though in forger societies if you

56:20

are really good hunter and you're pretty successful

56:22

and europe

56:23

physically formidable guy in all of that stuff

56:26

what you're gonna find if you have a successful hunt

56:28

is as you drag the carcass back you're going to have a lot

56:30

of people say i need food the elderly

56:32

people who need to they're sick people who needs if

56:34

there's little babies who needs it there's there's moms

56:37

were lactating which is very metabolic we demanding

56:39

etc cook who need food and and

56:41

you get a lot of demanding

56:43

the food and and status

56:45

becomes perform based on the degree

56:47

to which the

56:48

guy or disseminates that

56:50

food provides that food it's

56:52

a sort of benevolent reader

56:54

and and this is this is what confers

56:56

status to if you come back with a big ego

56:59

the you're going to be status in a girl

57:01

in fact foragers this is been documented

57:03

by anthropologist forges are very self deprecating

57:05

successful hunters very soft

57:07

they'll come back with this huge meet carcass

57:10

and they'll say oh you know i hope this is enough

57:12

to feed some of you it's not very good

57:14

i should have done better they're very self deprecating

57:16

and that's tied to their high status

57:19

there you have this biological selection killing

57:21

officer a particularly aggressive males

57:23

are abandoning them in a cave

57:25

are of of i'm sure you've seen this of the spears

57:28

and arrows in a person a person

57:30

ground right you know probably an aggressive

57:32

male on our but you also

57:34

have these look the emergence of just practical norms like

57:36

demand sharing and humility betide status

57:38

so that's a long answer your question they could be longer

57:42

that it but that is step one so like to

57:44

support a five year in on bombs research

57:47

you know what why are they doing as well because it

57:49

you know for a cohesive group to to

57:51

to be successful it's the of one

57:54

bully one guy that's just the his

57:56

these either mean any

57:58

any beats up on other people the steal

58:00

stuff stories to sell us

58:02

a slacker he just doesn't pose

58:04

wait there is a problem will

58:06

they start with gossip and talking about

58:09

him and trying to shame and make

58:11

, feel guilty and but there's some people

58:13

the know that one to three percent psychopaths they don't

58:15

give a shit when he thinks about of and

58:17

so at some point is precursory shows you

58:19

know you just take the guy out a lot to to come back

58:21

without him a similar to go well

58:24

who hits we did we're not going to talk about that he's

58:26

gone and also you and made the

58:28

point it's hard to kill somebody is a big

58:30

massive aggressive male it's

58:32

hard to kill him see it helps if you have if you

58:34

guys at pile up on are you shoot

58:37

him with arrows or whatever but it also distributes

58:39

the guilt also the

58:42

the moral culpability no one

58:44

of this of this blame like the firing squad were no

58:46

one theater no one knows who actually killed and rights

58:49

south then there can't be revenge by

58:51

that guy's family against the killers because everybody

58:53

was in on it something like that and

58:56

so the point would be that over let's say

58:58

one hundred thousand or couple hundred thousand years

59:00

of that kind of when we you're gonna

59:02

get mostly moderate

59:04

more moderate males and fewer the

59:07

psychopathic bullies but not one hundred

59:09

percent because the here's bombs argument

59:11

if i recall that for naturals

59:13

like natural selection doesn't need to put

59:15

all of its resources into getting

59:17

rid of every last ones because that would just

59:20

take too much time and energy south's

59:22

it's it's enough to society these groups

59:24

can succeed reasonably well at the

59:26

only have a couple of freeloaders or

59:29

bullies button not to miss

59:32

yeah and and the current every by the

59:34

way humans are more carnivorous than

59:36

in a meat and the fat

59:38

else congress be presented cortex

59:41

which confers impulse control so

59:43

there there's this co evolution of jeans and

59:45

and dietary

59:47

habits the other thing i say that i have not seen

59:50

anybody investigate but i would love to see more

59:53

when it comes to why humans are so impact

59:56

the

59:57

early or capable of of entity

59:59

is is effected endurance hundred

1:00:01

though the way that foragers the way that our

1:00:03

ancestors hundred animals was we

1:00:05

get like one spear and them are to

1:00:07

spears and them but these are

1:00:09

we're super athletic animals that

1:00:11

were hunting be catholic said and

1:00:14

and so they they take off

1:00:16

or or dears or some whatever and

1:00:18

so they run

1:00:19

and they're injured but weeks after

1:00:21

we are the one distance runners i'm i'm trying it

1:00:24

has to do with our diaphragm and are bipedality

1:00:26

and other things

1:00:27

they are we chase animals down

1:00:30

we watch them die we watch them get

1:00:32

tired and and there's some

1:00:34

accounts of forgers like thinking like

1:00:36

of like up giving some kind of appreciation of

1:00:38

his animals it's of limping along cisco spirit

1:00:40

them were were chasing down and it's getting tired

1:00:43

that's a very intense way to

1:00:45

not like a lion were to champion

1:00:48

of throw grab and that's that it's it's

1:00:50

it's slower

1:00:51

it's more emotional i think and

1:00:53

and there's a certain humility and and like with there's no

1:00:56

way we could have caught

1:00:57

you know we had to endure it and chase it down

1:01:00

though you know there's there's

1:01:01

the ways in which how we got food

1:01:05

the encouraged certain and pathak

1:01:07

responding or certain perspective taking

1:01:09

i think i'm could be more investigated

1:01:12

than it is or maybe someone has with that and i just don't know

1:01:14

that about i find out ideas as

1:01:17

yeah to article on skeptic i published

1:01:19

by louis

1:01:21

the

1:01:22

leiden bird maybe i'm just

1:01:24

they can is less things are pretty much he's

1:01:26

a long distance tracker anna story

1:01:28

of science so his argument that

1:01:31

will this kind of tracking involves

1:01:33

the tools of reason and

1:01:35

hypothesis testing like scientists

1:01:37

you see also to see the animal the

1:01:41

kind of the footprints the animal here

1:01:43

at this time a day in the sun is over there

1:01:45

and the shade is over there is water we can infer

1:01:48

that he probably slept here and then moved over there

1:01:50

are many went over that mountain range over there

1:01:52

were there's caves you cannot whatever and

1:01:54

their descendants of then they check in the they follow

1:01:56

a little bit and checked out hypothesis and then reach

1:01:58

as dense and the thera priors

1:02:01

to see you know if we get in a basie and tab

1:02:03

roberts is probably over there

1:02:05

probably not over there and that that's

1:02:07

kind of the basis for human reason

1:02:11

i think you're cute ellen case can be made i wouldn't

1:02:13

say that there was one basis for human reason but but

1:02:15

that sales one area yeah yeah

1:02:18

yeah yeah yeah

1:02:19

so how do we go from these tiny bands

1:02:21

to larger tribes the chieftains

1:02:23

and states and nations and so i metallic

1:02:25

institutions to update

1:02:28

mostly warfare there's

1:02:31

that the predominant there is conscription

1:02:33

so in the middle east or east lot of

1:02:36

the were early site an early cities

1:02:38

popped up there were

1:02:40

a lot of arab lands mountains where

1:02:43

that which is not easy places

1:02:45

live

1:02:46

so warlords still

1:02:48

to consolidate populations because land

1:02:50

was limited

1:02:52

and as a result resources are limited and

1:02:54

so there was a lot of warfare and or lot of reading

1:02:57

this is the this is a

1:02:59

simple explanation and undies

1:03:01

the conquerors establish the

1:03:03

photo bureaucracies pro governments to regulate

1:03:06

the grain in the agriculture in the irrigation

1:03:08

of that of that location and of course

1:03:10

you know they conferred a certain stability to that

1:03:12

to the area because they protected the farmers within

1:03:15

their territory

1:03:16

they were doing a set of love for the farmers they're doing this

1:03:18

because you can't accidentally though

1:03:21

so they had to keep the farmers in the agricultural

1:03:23

safe in the labour safe so that they

1:03:25

could taxman if not with money

1:03:27

than continue to use their labor onto

1:03:29

buildings so am i

1:03:31

think the the the early origins are states

1:03:33

i i don't disagree with that the mainstream

1:03:36

take that

1:03:37

it was a result of

1:03:38

very

1:03:40

life giving and a

1:03:43

usable rivers the tigris and euphrates

1:03:45

rivers in the middle east though this

1:03:47

drew people along the only credible settlements

1:03:50

but eventually they realize

1:03:53

that they couldn't keep expanding keep expanding or

1:03:55

our and this was an

1:03:57

incentive for a conquers and warlords

1:03:59

to track and solitaire towards and

1:04:02

establish bureaucracy

1:04:03

the

1:04:04

you know that the first signs of order and human societies

1:04:06

were probably driven by were in conquest i

1:04:09

self interest of leaders

1:04:11

but i would say michael that

1:04:14

the dominoes

1:04:15

the humanity that work

1:04:19

where are the argument is what was the author's

1:04:21

name i forget his first name of my here

1:04:23

have had arrived on of as dot of everything

1:04:26

don't have everything on sorry eerie

1:04:28

have a sister said yeah

1:04:30

yeah so i wanted to write real clear

1:04:33

that it it might sound like

1:04:35

he had a very up an interesting book and i and i would

1:04:37

recommend it and it's a challenge is how i think

1:04:39

about things

1:04:40

but i don't think they're right a

1:04:42

but but i'm

1:04:44

i don't think it was just as linear process of

1:04:46

of warlords conquering the territories

1:04:49

and establishing a bureaucratic hierarchies

1:04:51

and that's it and before that there was no such thing

1:04:53

as hierarchy there was no such thing as

1:04:56

extreme differences in leadership

1:04:58

and and on influence in society

1:05:01

i a decent cycle for society

1:05:03

so there there's a long term if we zoom out

1:05:05

far enough we can see a general trend over

1:05:08

the zoom in on anyone society the

1:05:10

amount of hierarchy the amount of concentration

1:05:12

of power berries

1:05:14

so in in there's the said

1:05:17

to complicated

1:05:18

who live in myanmar and they're

1:05:20

agricultural and

1:05:22

or admin reach a study

1:05:24

them anthropologists nineteen fifties

1:05:26

what he found was of the society cycled between

1:05:29

periods of strict hierarchy and lose

1:05:31

heart there is a power centralization

1:05:33

and her decentralization

1:05:35

the

1:05:36

the periods of myths that

1:05:38

justified discrimination then

1:05:41

and on the lower status as

1:05:43

some family lineages and periods where the

1:05:45

mythologies didn't do that so

1:05:47

so societies do very back

1:05:50

and forth into how hierarchical they are how centralized

1:05:52

their powers but it doesn't mean we can zoom

1:05:54

out and see general trends so i'm

1:05:56

not going to make a linear argument about the the

1:05:59

change of history of

1:06:00

it's complicated but but it is uma

1:06:02

foreign if you can see brother

1:06:05

yeah i i like the book i was knew it i had

1:06:08

a david graber on the show

1:06:10

i said and of this way i read i'm a

1:06:13

passage from one of my articles

1:06:15

in which i'm quoting jared diamond's then

1:06:17

his calculations from his studies or one hunter

1:06:20

gatherer people's a pop a new guinea a small

1:06:22

band of twenty people generates

1:06:24

one hundred ninety possible diodes or

1:06:26

to person interactions twenty times

1:06:29

nineteen divided by two small enough

1:06:31

for informal conflict resolution but

1:06:33

increase that twenty the two

1:06:35

thousand and you're facing one million nine

1:06:37

hundred ninety nine thousand and possible diet two thousand

1:06:39

times eighty ninety nine divided by

1:06:41

two you're a hundred fold population

1:06:44

increase produces a ten thousand fold

1:06:46

diavik rise scale that up to cities two

1:06:49

hundred thousand or two million as a potential for conflict

1:06:51

multiplies beyond comprehension and

1:06:53

along with it the laws and regulations needed to

1:06:55

ensure relative harmony and efficiency here's

1:06:57

diamonds and guns germs and steel once

1:07:00

the threshold of several hundred below

1:07:02

which everybody can know everyone else has

1:07:04

been crossed increasing numbers of dyads become

1:07:07

heres of unrelated strangers hence a large

1:07:09

society the continues to leave conflict resolution

1:07:12

all of it's members is guaranteed a blower right

1:07:14

i read that it to up gray

1:07:17

bernie's is basically that's basically bunch of bullshit

1:07:19

and that's the standard line that the everybody's

1:07:21

always believed but it's not true

1:07:23

because and then and then is

1:07:26

that includes from his book about all the different times

1:07:28

of archaeological sites that don't seem

1:07:30

to show that kind of a hierarchical structure

1:07:33

that somehow these groups found it kind

1:07:35

of egalitarian horizontal structure way

1:07:37

to solve human size weights and avast yeah

1:07:39

so okay let's think about it from eighteen

1:07:42

under to the present so the available

1:07:44

evidence indicates that people are becoming more individualistic

1:07:46

since eighty two hundred

1:07:48

rising energy capture access to technology

1:07:51

access to education they

1:07:53

becoming more individualistic hierarchy

1:07:55

is seen as less of an intrinsically good thing

1:07:58

yeah whatever he knows i'm as the norm

1:08:00

or that the ideal nor

1:08:03

that doesn't mean

1:08:05

eighteen hundred to present day

1:08:07

hierarchy hasn't become temporarily more

1:08:09

salient and society that nationalism

1:08:11

hasn't risen and fallen in

1:08:13

very societies so the i

1:08:16

societies to the point they're missing is

1:08:18

that it's possible for society's to very in

1:08:20

their organizational hierarchy

1:08:23

in their centralization of power in the

1:08:25

rights they conferred individuals

1:08:27

while still being a smaller component

1:08:30

of a larger long term historical trend

1:08:32

toward listening hierarchy greater

1:08:34

egalitarianism inside authorities

1:08:36

are of course not static there and are constantly

1:08:38

cycling back and forth

1:08:41

but you can still zu mountains the long term

1:08:43

trends so from eating hundred to present day people

1:08:45

and just becoming more individualistic the

1:08:48

only available in it's used to indicate that but

1:08:51

it doesn't mean you can have a rise of of of a nationalist

1:08:53

or a populist in your in your society in

1:08:55

any given several decades

1:08:57

though you know society heightened losing team

1:08:59

back and forth the

1:09:02

the my i think about

1:09:05

yeah the iraqi or

1:09:07

archaeologists maybe it's not fair but i guess the question

1:09:09

is is what what does the archaeological are deep

1:09:12

historical record show about

1:09:14

the human egalitarianism are we

1:09:16

really egalitarian by nature

1:09:19

or is it kind of been forced

1:09:22

the norms of these small groups

1:09:24

that you will redistribute you will be fair

1:09:26

or else like christopher bombs research

1:09:28

and there or is it a little bit of both you

1:09:30

know we we can be altruistic and prosocial

1:09:33

and cooperative and of the right conditions and it

1:09:35

is it's the wrong conditions that we're not

1:09:37

gonna be that

1:09:39

the in the context so under conditions

1:09:41

a threat or uncertainty where

1:09:43

where resources can be easily monopolize

1:09:46

you're gonna see stronger hierarchies you're

1:09:48

going to see more inequality and you mentioned archaeology

1:09:51

will

1:09:52

the findings they have are things like on how

1:09:54

size

1:09:55

though in pure during periods of famine

1:09:58

or and though war

1:10:00

it seems that how sizes become more unequal

1:10:02

you have very very large houses and

1:10:05

you've ever small houses as a as a measure of

1:10:07

inequality or you'll have on

1:10:09

you know at an exotic

1:10:12

oils and flowers and and

1:10:14

rocks and things put into children's

1:10:16

tunes children's gray is now

1:10:18

that child in other like six or seven years

1:10:20

old they couldn't have done anything to deserve all these riches

1:10:22

right so it's a that's an indication of like

1:10:25

inheritance that that wealth has been to

1:10:27

sort given down to certain southern banal to

1:10:29

others to archaeologists do have a read

1:10:31

on this on and it seems that

1:10:33

humans

1:10:34

fluctuate we can be very hierarchical

1:10:37

the and domineering and

1:10:39

and think that inequality is extra is

1:10:42

completely justified in other people do not deserve

1:10:44

opportunities and we can think the

1:10:46

exact opposite and the more threatened we're

1:10:48

the more worried we are the more

1:10:51

material security is threatened

1:10:53

more identities are threatened the more

1:10:55

we will think that iraq is a good idea and that some

1:10:57

people probably should be held

1:10:59

that some people probably don't deserve opportunities

1:11:01

though it's it's a very flexible nature

1:11:04

i think human nature is just it's it's

1:11:06

marked by it's flexible

1:11:09

yeah

1:11:09

nicholas christakis in is a book on

1:11:12

the blueprint humanity the

1:11:14

has that section

1:11:16

on the databases tracking

1:11:18

shipwrecks over like four

1:11:21

hundred years from like fifteen hundred

1:11:23

and eighteen where are these people

1:11:25

just end up on some island while the only

1:11:27

reason we know about it is cause some of them survived

1:11:29

to tell the still hurts and ah

1:11:31

you know it more or less and so

1:11:33

now the analysis shows that in

1:11:36

the case of that where it's very stressful yeah

1:11:38

we may not make it dot the horizontal

1:11:41

restructured group that were more

1:11:43

egalitarian were more likely to survive

1:11:45

the hierarchical where you know maybe one of the

1:11:47

officers from the ship then charge

1:11:50

and and he still acts like he's that

1:11:52

in charge and it's a hierarchical stores they don't do

1:11:54

as well that speakers

1:11:57

evidence to what you just said it was

1:11:59

very flat

1:11:59

the ball but

1:12:01

the twenty other conditions some prodigies

1:12:03

are really better than others if the goal is just

1:12:05

survive

1:12:07

yeah hierarchies will coordinate and

1:12:09

organize information

1:12:11

but they will also limit what

1:12:13

counts as information and what is considered

1:12:16

as relevant information yeah

1:12:18

i think hierarchies of strengths and weaknesses and certainly

1:12:20

an issue where you have just a few people that

1:12:22

you need

1:12:23

the

1:12:24

where was your

1:12:27

yeah and i were i wanted to assist articles a fantastic

1:12:29

sociologists with

1:12:30

here is he's great yeah well

1:12:33

this you know the lord of the flies in

1:12:35

the you know this is the way humanity really

1:12:37

is without that the nearest civilization

1:12:39

keep innocent track tax and annette

1:12:41

criticized say no no no and then they bring that

1:12:44

up that example of those boys that are trapped

1:12:46

on an island and i'm i'm back in the sixties

1:12:48

or something and they're still live now and they survived

1:12:50

and they were very gallant areas and

1:12:52

it's like this this false dichotomy

1:12:54

to see of the lord of the flies

1:12:56

thesis is wrong and this is the correct pieces

1:12:59

were really good as humans in this guy wrote a

1:13:01

book about it and like and touch

1:13:03

display to simple to mean sometimes

1:13:05

is the lord of the flies is how things turn out

1:13:07

and sometimes the other ways how they turn out

1:13:11

weaver

1:13:13

that that are posts about asian

1:13:15

fusion in primates and humans this

1:13:17

is a cook course a component

1:13:19

of what are your books here are what is his

1:13:22

infusion how's that working groups

1:13:25

so i'm throughout all

1:13:28

of sociology or the focus has been

1:13:30

on states of integration or states

1:13:33

of differentiate

1:13:34

and on the the thought i

1:13:36

had

1:13:37

so we're as as economies get larger

1:13:40

occupations become more specialized

1:13:42

in the east so there's a differentiation of

1:13:44

the economy as it grows this is durkheim

1:13:46

going back classless us else

1:13:48

what i what i realize looking at the animal research

1:13:51

on animals the which is one of my

1:13:53

resistance for dealing sociology i

1:13:56

i have a couple tricks or i can get good ideas

1:13:58

of like a shortcut one and

1:14:00

i did not be cynical

1:14:02

look at look at how things have improved over time

1:14:04

it gives you the screens

1:14:05

or another rosetta stone

1:14:07

is to look at other animals and how they

1:14:09

organize information and sheriff

1:14:11

the the way other animals do is they

1:14:14

have period of time with her together and

1:14:16

period of time with her apart now they don't

1:14:18

have these animals don't have a condom use were occupational

1:14:20

nieces are proliferating it's too

1:14:23

macro and

1:14:25

and it's it's very much a state you're in

1:14:27

a state of differences in or you're in a statement

1:14:29

is what animals are doing is are going back and

1:14:31

forth

1:14:32

there are swimming between president you states

1:14:35

chimpanzees a this in the context of their communities

1:14:38

and if you look at what it seems this is

1:14:40

due when the animals

1:14:42

are up for

1:14:43

there there roaming range is is

1:14:45

is less correlated with the roman reigns

1:14:47

of their of their on ah

1:14:50

a constant suffix constant they

1:14:52

have experiences that are less shared

1:14:55

with their com specific because they're because new areas of the roman

1:14:57

reigns

1:14:58

and so it's a wonder a part

1:15:00

they're gaining information about their environment or

1:15:02

about themselves or about what works what doesn't

1:15:05

and when they're together there's there's there's

1:15:07

a sharing or integration of this

1:15:09

information in various ways

1:15:11

so i simply a tried to play that a human

1:15:13

beings

1:15:14

what allows human beings to come

1:15:16

together and go apart the do so

1:15:18

fluid me to do so without consequence

1:15:20

from you because if you're to fuse

1:15:23

the out what counts as

1:15:25

a good idea or a good strategy it

1:15:28

will be limited to us to a strong close

1:15:30

group identity you want groups to be porous

1:15:33

but at the same time of people are two separate

1:15:35

the to spend too much time apart

1:15:37

they'll fail to grasp

1:15:40

how to treat one another how to relate when they

1:15:42

won't have enough shared understand

1:15:44

though using states

1:15:47

enable vision states when when we're too

1:15:49

close to one another we get kind of bored couldn't keep

1:15:51

her in the same thing over and over down and and there's

1:15:53

not enough new the son of novelty

1:15:55

it's too predictable with stale so

1:15:57

fusion state motivators instead

1:15:59

and when we're apart we feel kind of addressed

1:16:02

and am i on the right path

1:16:04

in my experience representative of something general

1:16:07

and sufficient states motivates using states

1:16:09

it's a you have this isolation

1:16:11

the occurring and and

1:16:13

i realized that data groups think

1:16:16

mattress individuals who think as much as individual

1:16:19

brains with hate groups think as

1:16:21

groups and the way they do that is by

1:16:23

dispersing and collecting information

1:16:26

and by coming together and integrating coordinating

1:16:28

them from it

1:16:29

groups think as good

1:16:31

and i'm and so i became interested in

1:16:33

what if if that's true

1:16:35

and groups can think more or less accurately

1:16:38

more or less rational

1:16:40

what influences a decision fusion

1:16:42

oscillation what what enables that increasing

1:16:45

the route accuracy

1:16:47

the

1:16:47

the and and i think it's it's it's infrastructure

1:16:50

it's it's access to the

1:16:52

increasing levels of energy capture the

1:16:54

simplest example is just irrigation

1:16:57

which was the most important from the for chef in each world

1:16:59

for early city

1:17:00

what you see as you see as soon as irrigation

1:17:03

canals get dugout you

1:17:05

see groups of people camps of people

1:17:07

settling on these these areas

1:17:10

and i'm cities can be maintained

1:17:12

because every individual person doesn't have the collector

1:17:14

on water now they can come to the city and just

1:17:16

hang out and talk views

1:17:18

and they'll have a stable source of water there

1:17:20

they don't have to individually cut it with their family

1:17:23

the

1:17:24

in the same time they can disperse

1:17:26

that make you come back and they can be sure

1:17:28

that that that supply of water will be there

1:17:31

so

1:17:32

i think what infrastructure is doing is it's

1:17:34

increasing the fluidity and openness

1:17:36

of ours isn't using honestly

1:17:38

and i know there's a lotta jargon there

1:17:40

but what i really mean is is that we are becoming

1:17:42

have been becoming resume our large enough

1:17:45

and it's and it's a nonlinear change historically

1:17:47

but if you zoom out front of you to see a pattern

1:17:50

where is becoming easier and easier to

1:17:52

come together

1:17:54

in a in a short term contracts

1:17:56

or long term context depending on the goals that behind

1:17:59

and to go

1:18:00

and to have individual experiences

1:18:03

suffer from other people that that speak to

1:18:05

our personal interests in i'm not spending all my day collecting

1:18:07

water hunting for food

1:18:10

i can i work at nighttime because we have electricity

1:18:13

these are all allowing me to have new experiences new

1:18:15

ideas new thought separate from my compatriot

1:18:17

that because we have

1:18:19

electricity and waste treatment and water

1:18:21

we can also create these little mini ecologies

1:18:23

called university departments where i can come together

1:18:25

and share my ah insights

1:18:27

that i had when i was separate

1:18:29

though

1:18:30

this is what infrastructures doing it increasing the

1:18:32

openness and the rapidity of

1:18:34

our fish infusion oscillation and i believe that it's making

1:18:36

us more accurate about each other

1:18:38

and about the war

1:18:41

the i think you're right you know infrastructures all

1:18:43

things you don't notice it until

1:18:45

the electricity goes out for example traits

1:18:48

which happens years in the area where i live

1:18:50

i live way up in the mountains above santa barbara in there

1:18:53

at southern california edison is replacing the pulls

1:18:55

up here it is there some like the nineteen forties and or

1:18:57

fire hazard rights of and i was like

1:18:59

your power will be out in between nine

1:19:01

and six and often it's like ninety

1:19:03

nine and it's astonishing like oh

1:19:05

my god i can't these are the water heaters at work

1:19:08

the plopped as i have a pump for a

1:19:10

well at night or have water

1:19:12

as oh my god i'm just gonna go down to the gym

1:19:14

just work there all day is lisa of water

1:19:18

and electricity and still hits and

1:19:20

that hits guess is the way you want the infrastructure

1:19:22

right where you don't notice it so that you can

1:19:24

just go about your day doing other stuff that

1:19:27

how yeah was happen

1:19:29

marshall mcluhan bird a great media theorists

1:19:31

said that media when an extension of our central nervous

1:19:34

i think you got a partially right

1:19:36

media is but but it's infrastructure that's

1:19:38

an extension of our central nervous system it allows

1:19:40

us to have new kinds of concerns are

1:19:43

relatively divorced from survival depending on

1:19:45

the quality of our infrastructure new

1:19:47

kinds of experiences it allows us

1:19:49

to experience more of the day it

1:19:52

literally just be keeping lights on it

1:19:54

allows us to live longer and from to longevity i

1:19:56

mean the

1:19:58

the benefits you are

1:19:59

rb moment to moment experience in our moments

1:20:02

moment physiological state

1:20:03

our are

1:20:05

there subtle and sociologist spend

1:20:07

all their time with norms and cultural debates

1:20:09

and i'm fascinated by all that stuff

1:20:11

they they fail to recognize that

1:20:14

if if we did not have functioning electricity

1:20:16

or or an electrical good or we had

1:20:18

broken water pipes or our refineries

1:20:20

all broken by the way america hasn't dealt in refinery

1:20:23

a fully equipped are finding a long time to fascinating

1:20:25

when it comes to the oil issue the

1:20:27

oil types are are rarely replace we

1:20:29

have water pipes and in one place in over eighty years

1:20:31

in the sky

1:20:32

so it it up the point is is

1:20:34

that

1:20:36

we don't appreciate even though

1:20:39

maslow made roughly the a similar

1:20:41

argument he didn't tie

1:20:42

go to be to infrastructure by

1:20:44

it opens up a new world of possibilities

1:20:46

for social organization and for think

1:20:49

the be able to take for granted

1:20:51

very basic things like our or life

1:20:53

or safety or hunger

1:20:56

the changes or outlook on things in a changes how we associate

1:21:01

it is a broader the article and colonizing

1:21:03

mars does he intend of free associating

1:21:06

to see what time it structure

1:21:08

we would need for a new martian colony

1:21:11

based on he lives in my ambitions which

1:21:13

i love right and it also maybe

1:21:15

start off with a couple astronauts than you have a couple

1:21:17

dozen the the of a couple hundred near he started

1:21:19

what we need to send a million people

1:21:22

in and paul krugman wrote an interesting up

1:21:24

at the other day the new york times about that

1:21:26

wouldn't be remotely and ask people to

1:21:28

have if you want to live like we live today

1:21:30

with a modern economy and all the goodies and

1:21:32

infrastructure not easy like a hundred million

1:21:34

people sniper oh my

1:21:37

god that's right because all the stuff that

1:21:39

i don't even think about and if you plop

1:21:41

down ten of us on mars it's like that

1:21:43

all goes away right and

1:21:45

way to spend all of our days does try to produce

1:21:48

oxygen and water and food

1:21:51

these are evolved structures a silly thing

1:21:54

if you look at it into structural system it

1:21:56

has components but it has district discreet

1:21:58

components precisely the nice components

1:22:01

and they've been developing for for long periods of time

1:22:03

with something like electricity or electrical grid is relatively

1:22:05

new the even or something like roads

1:22:08

wrote it in developing for for millennia and

1:22:10

terms of the the materials that we put in

1:22:12

them to make them keep them can't bouncy and

1:22:14

and resistant pressure or

1:22:16

roads are huge if you are pitted roads are

1:22:19

in ancient city you're not going to get goods you're

1:22:21

gonna carts overturned such simple things like

1:22:23

this you mentioned you must

1:22:25

the fact i think it's because of his

1:22:27

subtle but incredible fact

1:22:29

the put out a a he does is a lot

1:22:32

on twitter he he puts out like an ad for

1:22:34

unity want to come work for a tesla you want to come

1:22:36

work for nice and your resume

1:22:38

this is not possible without electricity

1:22:41

that's not possible for somebody in one part

1:22:43

of the world to say hey anyone in the world

1:22:45

who wants to come work for me to sort of open system

1:22:47

fusion

1:22:48

you can see it in the in the great scientists of history

1:22:51

the nikola tesla is that they they they'd

1:22:53

be did the equivalent they didn't have twitter so

1:22:55

it wasn't as open

1:22:56

the decision fusion oscillation wasn't is fluid

1:23:00

the now you know you on musk is open

1:23:02

to any competent engineer in the world com

1:23:04

worker

1:23:05

and he's not going to

1:23:07

ensure their family lineage loyalty

1:23:09

to him if they want to leave what

1:23:12

a what what does electricity is doing is it's

1:23:14

enabling this this oscillating it's

1:23:17

gonna make him a bit engineer and make better products

1:23:19

attitude as it did for tesla madison an early

1:23:21

in the past

1:23:23

your theory does

1:23:26

shed some light on light on

1:23:28

about diversity viewpoint diversity

1:23:31

how much do you need and also

1:23:33

and that's privately but politically

1:23:36

immigration what's in terms

1:23:38

of fusion vision fusion a

1:23:40

many new immigrants to we want we want some we

1:23:42

want those it would be engineers coming

1:23:44

over here and and people are your innovate

1:23:46

and were cardinal at stuff but

1:23:49

we don't want to many does any get that freeloaders

1:23:51

or whatever this kind of the conservative and

1:23:54

that there you know ten or

1:23:57

or the other conservative talking point is

1:23:59

america or france or germany

1:24:02

or whoever has canada but he

1:24:04

said of characteristics that we

1:24:06

call american or french or german

1:24:08

and that this that this we stand for where

1:24:10

we believe in western democracy civil rights

1:24:13

women's rights gave this is what we stand for

1:24:15

and if you're bringing in not

1:24:17

all your skills but also your cultural

1:24:20

values that don't gel with ours

1:24:22

that's not the kind of diversity we want as

1:24:24

the wrong kind of diverse of their it's may be efficient

1:24:27

use of thing speaks to the

1:24:30

it's a good question on i say haven't

1:24:32

thought about that but but i do think there's a couple

1:24:34

think so sufficient visions of fractal process

1:24:36

so we can look at immigration as a a

1:24:38

fusion between two countries

1:24:40

we can also look at it as a localized data data

1:24:43

though so what were we look at it from

1:24:45

a macro perspective

1:24:46

the society's ability to accommodate immigrants

1:24:48

is really important as the jobs

1:24:51

the amount of social welfare can offer you didn't

1:24:53

provide hard limits on on how

1:24:55

much immigration make sense economically

1:24:58

the other side of that is

1:24:59

you mention that people have very different view values

1:25:02

and world views and so on i

1:25:04

don't know they're very different that they are different and in

1:25:06

some significant ways

1:25:08

and the idea is is that it's always

1:25:10

been hard to coexist in in cosmopolitan

1:25:12

societies where people have different values and worldview

1:25:15

that because of the advanced infrastructure

1:25:17

that we see

1:25:18

n n much of the world and is becoming

1:25:20

global the

1:25:22

the ability for people to to vision

1:25:25

and views on absolutely

1:25:27

on a day to day basis to something like

1:25:29

public transportation

1:25:30

which is a result of fuel stations and

1:25:32

electricity

1:25:33

the

1:25:34

the a coffee shops which a result

1:25:36

of waste treatment or successful

1:25:39

what our water piping electricity these

1:25:41

are sites where people can come together temporarily

1:25:43

echo park and if the goal

1:25:46

is to dissolved be the hostility

1:25:48

and dehumanization

1:25:50

and rigid thinking that we sometimes develop

1:25:52

them were encountering someone who thinks differently from us

1:25:55

what would the primate but the with a human

1:25:57

being needs are these sites of coming

1:25:59

together

1:25:59

going a part where they're relatively few

1:26:02

costs for short term conversations the

1:26:04

you know you can have serendipitous encounters with people

1:26:07

i think that ultimately is are going to

1:26:09

be a conflict of world's user

1:26:11

but the way to blend

1:26:13

world views the way to find compromise is

1:26:15

the how societies the have

1:26:17

various sites various

1:26:20

locations various places where people

1:26:22

run into each other

1:26:23

and have short conversations

1:26:25

and then go apart and then think about it

1:26:27

mm maybe two weeks later they meet someone else

1:26:29

who was an immigrant for you know from a different country

1:26:32

but has similar views and they talk to them and and

1:26:34

it's just it's it's it's not a process

1:26:36

that happens overnight but it's one that can

1:26:38

dissolve the

1:26:40

moral superiority and moral certainty

1:26:42

of people

1:26:43

but you need you can have them to living

1:26:45

in little city little little rural villages

1:26:48

where they never encounter someone who thinks

1:26:50

differently you want this

1:26:52

infrastructure or contact the

1:26:55

enables people the communication technology

1:26:57

the transportation technology

1:26:59

the to to come together and

1:27:01

and go parts will agree

1:27:03

this is a way of them

1:27:05

it is it's a process every combination

1:27:08

we have ideas

1:27:09

the i interact with someone new who stinks

1:27:11

a little bit differently and i come away and i begin

1:27:13

to recombine mightiest i'm not going change my

1:27:15

mind necessarily but i'm suddenly changed

1:27:18

the more often and and and the more smoothly and

1:27:20

the more openly i can interact with

1:27:22

the various people

1:27:24

the more tolerant ethical become origin

1:27:26

that would be my why we get as sick as an immigrant

1:27:29

yeah yeah is this explain

1:27:31

why there's these catch basins of industries

1:27:33

like detroit for the automobile industry silicon

1:27:35

valley for computers and so forth

1:27:39

yeah yeah and a i realized

1:27:42

done

1:27:42

reading this book at that the origins

1:27:45

of electricity where exactly this

1:27:46

though the edison had his

1:27:50

the camp in menlo park calif and

1:27:52

it was apparently this is campus and

1:27:54

and it was open to everybody in the world and if you

1:27:56

were a physicist are you were

1:27:58

a tinkerer or

1:27:59

becoming work with him for a while and so yeah

1:28:02

you see the sights and and

1:28:04

there there's their site where people cycling

1:28:06

in an hour depending on their interest

1:28:08

depending on a certain project and they

1:28:10

are just absolute engines of innovation

1:28:13

you can see what and silicone valley now you can see

1:28:15

this all around the world these little pockets and

1:28:17

they are pocket of open poorest isn't fusion

1:28:19

oscillation and they're also in places

1:28:21

that are in for structurally sound often

1:28:26

right is that relate to year oscillation

1:28:28

infrastructure theory of cultural evolution

1:28:31

this we never were talking about

1:28:33

yeah yeah yeah justice is

1:28:35

that idea that the way the groups think

1:28:37

there's by oscillating between vision into states

1:28:40

that

1:28:42

the

1:28:43

that

1:28:44

the the extent that people can can

1:28:47

experience these vision abuse and states openly

1:28:49

and fluidly

1:28:50

the

1:28:51

they will become as groups more creative and more

1:28:53

inventive and that has

1:28:55

the and infrastructural evolution

1:28:58

the basic idea

1:29:00

yeah no i love that idea

1:29:02

the course groups who do good things are bad things

1:29:04

are you think of love nasa we put a man the moon that

1:29:07

was a good collective action or

1:29:09

the development of any these computer technologies

1:29:11

in the in phone these are collective action

1:29:14

the fusion groups within up diversity

1:29:16

to solve problems like that yeah

1:29:18

yeah i think i think is were very few

1:29:20

his group setting i think religions

1:29:23

or a way to fuse groups so if we look

1:29:25

at witchcraft police were going to see people

1:29:27

who share religious commitment we're going see people

1:29:29

who see one another quite a bit

1:29:31

we're going to see people who eat together see

1:29:34

people who have their kids playing with one

1:29:36

another

1:29:36

they're not always physically together

1:29:39

they sleep in separate beds i'm sure but but

1:29:41

they're spending a lot of their time together so that dirt

1:29:43

dirt relatively few screws

1:29:45

then it's it's hard for these groups

1:29:47

to accommodate new information a countervailing

1:29:50

information or counterfactual information

1:29:52

because they're always monitoring one another this

1:29:55

is one of the downsides of overly fi skirts

1:29:57

norms become very rigid hierarchy

1:29:59

seem

1:29:59

natural normal

1:30:01

the and and what

1:30:03

one ought to believe becomes more important

1:30:05

than what is true

1:30:07

and so i think you're looking at

1:30:09

overly few screws you you have a prom

1:30:11

an awesome they're not they're not susan dinner

1:30:14

they're getting enough time apart from one another

1:30:17

and so you get at all as yeah i think you get same problem

1:30:19

of of being overly says which

1:30:21

is the problem it earlier think i think we're

1:30:24

quite a bit separate from one another and

1:30:26

i think we have pathologies of vision was

1:30:28

say suspect the classical sociologist at that sort

1:30:30

of so that the who

1:30:32

ever group is overly fused you're going to feel

1:30:35

like you can express your individuality or creativity

1:30:37

a group is overly fish and you're gonna feel long and

1:30:40

so there there's aspects of human nature that motivates

1:30:44

the coming together and going apart which is which

1:30:46

is how we might explain like long term change

1:30:48

and morality

1:30:49

for an ethics you know that there are these

1:30:52

human motivations to keep the oscillation happening

1:30:56

in your theory how natural

1:30:58

is the nation state or

1:31:00

the nation you say

1:31:03

cities are going back to abandon

1:31:06

tribes tpm cities city

1:31:08

states then you know the

1:31:10

nation state is really not that old just a few

1:31:12

centuries maybe depending on what you want accounts

1:31:15

the nation state at the end of the

1:31:17

moral or can i played around the idea of what maybe

1:31:20

eventually we'll have no more national borders

1:31:22

and other just be open borders for trade and

1:31:24

this would be a good since i wrote

1:31:27

and twenty fifteen liberals kind of gone the opposite

1:31:29

direction you know or nationalism is

1:31:31

that he knows kind of back on the radar

1:31:33

i had this guy i your amazon he on the on

1:31:35

the podcast and we released that

1:31:37

when this book is conservativism

1:31:40

a rediscovery and his complaint is

1:31:42

that conservatives have been

1:31:44

corrupted by this enlightenment i

1:31:47

can can or wellness what i

1:31:49

call it is the eagles enlightenment liberalism

1:31:52

which is not crazy far left progressivism he

1:31:54

means just kind of main street like joe

1:31:56

biden planets a nanny not even

1:31:58

that more like out just right of center conservative

1:32:02

who believes in civil rights and women's rights

1:32:04

and so on and , kind of been tagged

1:32:06

along with the liberal movements

1:32:08

over the last fifty years he thinks

1:32:11

that's gone too far we need to get back

1:32:13

to the good old days you know what's more

1:32:15

hierarchical structure where people knew their place

1:32:18

and and that particularly the transmission

1:32:20

of values that through religion

1:32:23

family is super important he has nine

1:32:25

children's assets intense v lives

1:32:27

is he lives what he believes sprites is

1:32:30

in eastern orthodox jew live in in israel and

1:32:33

you know thought that the indus really help me understand

1:32:36

that i have misunderstood what conservativism

1:32:39

middle east that bring the when i say you

1:32:41

know and make fun of can service am in

1:32:43

favor of small government will what about the military

1:32:45

will accept that must of course you know

1:32:47

about prison zone accept that what about the border

1:32:49

will accept that units are in i

1:32:52

believe in people said have autonomy and

1:32:54

freedom and make their own choices you mean like

1:32:56

women's reproductive there's one on on on not that

1:32:58

are you not you guys are in love with them and they want to

1:33:00

have sex with each no no no not that sethi

1:33:02

some substance on reddit

1:33:04

basically he's same none

1:33:07

of that snacks and services conservatism

1:33:09

we should in a press back wish

1:33:11

we need big government big massive government

1:33:14

to protect our nation does it's like a fan

1:33:16

right now totally so no i do think

1:33:19

the nation is an abstract i think

1:33:21

human the the intuition for

1:33:23

humans the default intuition is a cada

1:33:25

alexander marry a psychotic a community

1:33:28

complex which is which and panties listen

1:33:30

to the community and i have to limited roaming range

1:33:33

tracking people cellphone some studies of tracks

1:33:35

human cell phone data

1:33:37

they find that humans have a pretty to limited roman

1:33:39

reigns

1:33:40

that's not very large innocent rand i

1:33:43

do think a nation as an extraction it's instruction

1:33:45

almost a necessity because we don't experience

1:33:48

of the nation we experience our neighborhood and our

1:33:50

neighbors answer i do think

1:33:52

it's an obstruction i think that's what makes it so

1:33:55

would agree intractable then i

1:33:57

also agree with you that

1:33:59

i think you're said

1:33:59

that the dividing line between democrats and republicans

1:34:02

right now

1:34:03

there's one between nationalism and globalist

1:34:05

we have a responsibility for

1:34:08

everybody in the world

1:34:09

is it is in america or lucky the west responsibility

1:34:12

to take care of everybody in the world

1:34:14

they did or government takes care of them or not is

1:34:16

it our job to take care of him to do everything we can either

1:34:18

invite them to our country or or help

1:34:21

them are build their own country

1:34:23

or is it our responsibility which

1:34:25

would be the globalist argument an internationalist argument

1:34:27

will be no it's it's it's it's our

1:34:29

responsibility the nation's responsibility care of

1:34:31

the people in the nation to maximize their well

1:34:34

it's a local versus a global outlook

1:34:37

and i do think this is the dividing

1:34:39

line with conservatives being more nationalistic

1:34:41

and democrats be more global

1:34:43

i don't think it's a matter of racism or ethnocentrism

1:34:46

i don't think it's said i think it's a it's a legitimate trade

1:34:48

off question because there's only so much money to go

1:34:50

around there's only so many resources so

1:34:53

you know when you're allocating them to allocate and primarily

1:34:55

to your own the listen the board you try

1:34:58

to improve the world and i think there's arguments

1:35:00

be made on both sides but i believe that is the dividing

1:35:02

line right now and then it's it's it's been lost in all

1:35:04

of this

1:35:05

mud slinging but that that really is the issue