0:00

Just a warning before we start, this

0:02

episode is really powerful and

0:04

well worth a listen, but it

0:06

does contain discussions about child sexual

0:08

abuse and suicide. So please take

0:11

care whilst listening. Hello

0:17

and welcome to The Midpoint with me,

0:19

Gabby Logan. I'm delighted to have a

0:21

fellow radio enthusiast with me this week.

0:23

Niki Campbell is now what you'd call

0:25

a veteran of BBC Radio, having broadcast

0:27

on the network since 1987. And

0:30

that's because he's damn good at it. He

0:32

anchored the five live breakfast show for a

0:34

staggering 19 years, almost two decades

0:37

of getting up at four o'clock in the

0:39

morning and dealing with the biggest issues of

0:41

the day. And he still hosts a daily

0:43

show at the slightly more palatable time of

0:45

9am, his famous phone-in Your Call. Although

0:48

radio is his great love, he's also rather

0:50

good on the telly, and his list of

0:52

credits include everything from top of the pops

0:54

to long-lost family, Wheel of Fortune, to Newsnight.

0:57

But if you're one of his loyal listeners,

0:59

you'll know that Niki is not one to

1:01

shy away from the big issues. So we're

1:03

going to be talking with CEO of the

1:06

charity Campaign Against Living Miserably, Simon Gunning. Every

1:08

90 minutes, someone in the UK dies of

1:10

suicide. So we're going to be speaking to

1:12

him about the mental health issues affecting people

1:15

in midlife and ways that calm can help.

1:18

And on a less serious note, I do need

1:20

to talk to Niki about a certain dippy egg

1:22

as well. So let's get cracking. Sorry.

1:30

Niki Campbell, this feels like it has been way

1:33

too long in the making this moment of

1:35

you coming on the midpoint. I can't believe

1:37

we've got, you know, kind of so far

1:39

in without having you, but that in itself,

1:41

I think, is special. Well, I've been

1:43

listening to it on increasingly

1:46

enraged by

1:49

the fact that I've not been on it. You're

1:51

thinking I'm going to miss the age range. You're going to

1:53

have to be like, you've been soft-soaked me all you like.

1:55

That's not going to dissipate. The thing is, I listen to

1:58

you almost every day and have done for... for

2:00

almost 20 years and I've been

2:02

watching on telly for so long. I write down, you've

2:04

got notepad with you. You said to me I might

2:06

write notes down. I'm constantly writing notes to myself by

2:08

people that I must contact. But with you, it's almost

2:11

like you're with me all the time. So I feel

2:13

like everybody else is with you all the time. Where

2:16

to start with you in an hour or so that

2:18

we have together, to get through the things I'd like

2:20

to talk to you about is almost impossible. So there

2:22

will be things that we need to do two volumes.

2:26

Let's talk a little bit about, because just

2:28

in your introduction, I mentioned DIPIAC. Let's start

2:30

at the end if you like. Because one

2:32

of the most recent things people will

2:34

have been absolutely overjoyed to see is

2:37

your revelation as DIPIAC on

2:39

The Masked Singer. If anybody listening doesn't

2:41

know what that is, describe The Masked

2:43

Singer. How are you doing? Do you

2:45

do it? The Masked Singer is a

2:47

show where well-known people sing in giant

2:49

costumes and a panel has to guess

2:52

who the person is inside. And the

2:54

joyous thing about your moment was that

2:56

you were revealed to your beautiful co-host

2:58

on Long Lost Families, Davina McCall, who

3:00

is one of the judges,

3:02

the panel, and it was just

3:04

a gorgeous moment. Take it off. Take it

3:07

off. It's

3:09

standing there. It's like some sort of

3:11

medieval town square. I know who'd take

3:13

it off. The previous

3:16

week, I'd managed to make it through a few

3:18

shows, which was great. And

3:20

I do have survivors guilt because I

3:22

beat Dionne Warwick in the final two.

3:24

We should just say, actually, when you

3:26

say that beat, because actually the standard of

3:29

singing is the reason you progress. Well, it's

3:31

kind of that and it's kind of a

3:33

guessing game as well. So, you know, Dionne

3:35

Warwick was ejected and I was kept. And

3:37

that is true surviving. But you are a

3:39

singer. You are a musician. I'm kind of.

3:41

Yeah. You've got an album. Yeah, a couple.

3:43

Yeah, a couple. But it's like, is that

3:45

something I take through my life? I beat

3:48

Dionne Warwick in a singing competition. Yeah. Not

3:50

quite like that. Not quite

3:52

accurate. But then when I did 500

3:54

Miles by The Proclaimers, that

3:56

was just crazy. So I'm there in this giant egg and you

3:58

can hardly see. And everyone calls you. Nobody

4:01

calls you by your name, because it's

4:03

just the whole shtick, the whole fantasy is maintained

4:05

while you're there. Nobody

4:08

knows who I am apart from a select

4:10

few people. And as you can imagine, it's

4:12

a massive complex. The studios are just enormous.

4:14

Well, the costumes themselves. Oh, they're extraordinary. So

4:17

when you leave your little changing area onto

4:19

this, they're going, OK, Dippy,

4:21

straight. They're just coming up to a ramp, Dippy, because

4:23

you can't see a thing. All

4:25

right. And then you see the shaft of light onto the stage

4:27

like a near death experience. And you go down onto the stage

4:29

and you can't see anything that's going on. And

4:33

then you've got to belt out some incredible tunes.

4:35

Moon River? Five

4:38

hundred miles was incredible. I had a band

4:40

of four eggs dressed in kilts with red

4:42

beers. And then halfway

4:44

through the song, the four girl dancers come

4:47

on dressed as Highland cows. It was just

4:49

incredible. And then I did Moon River on

4:52

the final week. And that was the emotional

4:54

one. It's an emotional song for me. It's

4:56

an emotional song for the family. It's like

4:58

one of our family songs. It's great. A

5:00

affecting, heartbreaking song. And

5:02

also all I could see of

5:04

Davina all the way through, who's I mean, you

5:06

know, Davina, she's just a brilliant person. And

5:08

all I could see was just this indistinct

5:11

image of Davina. And

5:13

she had the clue who I was. And I

5:15

was so near and so far away. And then,

5:17

of course, I'm pumped up with the oxytocin and

5:19

the endorphins and all this stuff. So

5:21

when the lid came off and she

5:23

looked so emotional, I cried. She cried.

5:25

It was and they said, it's the

5:28

best reveal we've had in five series.

5:31

I'll take that. It was very, very emotional. It

5:33

was brilliant. And I wonder, doing

5:35

something like that, because you're not somebody

5:37

who's appeared regularly on any kind of

5:39

reality shows. You know, you've not done

5:41

strictly. You're not somebody who's I've seen

5:44

in the jungle. I imagine those

5:46

decisions were often you've probably been asked many times based on

5:48

the seriousness of some of the work that you do. And

5:50

maybe the the image that you project. I

5:54

think kind of not. But I just think you

5:57

should you should do what you kind of are

5:59

OK at. And I'm kind of OK at singing.

6:01

if I were to dance, I mean the family

6:03

will go, no, absolutely not. I mean, I wouldn't,

6:05

I would be terrible. But the

6:08

reason I did The Masked Singer and it came up,

6:11

well, I got the call and I

6:14

thought, what? What? And

6:17

then I thought, actually, because as you know, the last couple

6:19

of years has been really heavy

6:21

duty. And I just

6:23

thought, what a laugh, you know, what an absolute

6:25

laugh. And I went through and told Tina and

6:28

she was initially skeptical. And then I said, look,

6:30

whatever I dress up as, I'll be able to

6:32

sing, I'm okay at singing, so I won't make

6:34

a total fool of myself. And

6:36

she said, yeah, you know, let's have a laugh, go

6:38

for it. So it was it was joyous. Do you

6:40

run everything by Tina? Oh, yeah. Oh,

6:43

yeah. You're a real team. You

6:45

are though, aren't you? I remember you saying to me, we had

6:47

the good fortune to sit in for

6:50

three weeks when your co host was away on

6:52

Five Live Breakfast many years ago. And

6:54

she'd come in with the kids. I can't believe they

6:56

were they were literally like kind of seven and eight,

6:59

maybe at the time, tiny. And you

7:02

were really busy. You were doing, I think, you

7:05

had a regular TV show, which

7:07

would have been, yeah,

7:09

watchdog and busy with breakfast. And I was

7:12

and you were doing your music. And I think you'd written

7:14

your book around that time. And I said, gosh, how does

7:16

you know, how does that work with and she went, you

7:18

went, she gets my stick, she gets me, she gets me.

7:20

And that's how you stay married for such a long time,

7:22

I guess. Yeah. And I think also

7:25

she understands the business. She started out in it.

7:27

Yeah. Yeah. And she's she's read the news on

7:29

Radio 4 now. And she

7:31

kind of is really tolerant. And

7:34

she understands the ups and downs. She's been

7:36

with me throughout all that. And

7:39

yeah, here we are. Yeah, here we are. I mean,

7:41

there are ups and downs in any long marriage. But

7:43

I think you two are, you know, from

7:46

the outside, anyway, it looks like a great team that

7:48

works really well. And you get to kind of continue

7:50

to flourish in the areas that you are so excellent

7:52

at, which we'll Touch on

7:54

as well, because there's a big change happened in

7:56

the last year, which was coming off breakfast. Tell me

7:58

how your lifestyle has improved. Used have not

8:00

having a for am alarmed cool well as

8:03

if it does help with us on the

8:05

mental health it's not good for the mental

8:07

health Getting up at some three o'clock in

8:09

the morning of remote know and I ate

8:11

during that time in that's why Mapped Out

8:13

sometimes really apostles you some some marital roller

8:15

coasters that said that to one as can

8:18

when she cites of me the flying around

8:20

he probably do make amends absolutely do some

8:22

you know when I had a breakdown about

8:24

nine years ago ten years ago and she

8:26

was just incredible. She was amazing through that.

8:28

She's one of the people. The I told

8:30

about all the terrible stuff and to me

8:33

my friends of schools he's one of the

8:35

people who knew at the i mean I've

8:37

been pressing issue over the years to try

8:39

and get out there but a new and

8:41

seems interested answer then it's a piece of

8:43

barrier again so she's been with me and

8:46

all that and is just in as is

8:48

somewhat I can have the most will obviously

8:50

intimate conversations with and assists completely understanding and

8:52

she knows everything that happened in the how

8:54

it's affected me over the years and was

8:56

actually. She. Was listening to

8:58

a program by. Alex Rance and on

9:01

Radio Four and I came in after work

9:03

one day on it was just the stars

9:05

were all aligned because I walked in and

9:07

she was listening to this program and she

9:09

said to this a program about. Sex.

9:12

On physical abuse at your school. On.

9:14

A moment? Do you want to?

9:17

Listen. To my turn off. Because

9:20

she knew and other say i'm to like think what

9:22

she was listening to results you for entering that and

9:24

and Madonna came in she said you know. I

9:27

says yes our our our I'll go upstairs

9:29

I went upstairs and forgot kind of my

9:31

studying the statistics about us burst into tears

9:33

as go broke down because every it was

9:35

like of floodgates or came out was like

9:38

oh my god somebody took the grown up.

9:40

This is this incredible So I saw phone

9:42

daleks the next day and that's how it

9:44

that holes own. Had an end the

9:46

conversation you have with Alex. I've read

9:48

that you said that was one of

9:50

the most nice defining or life. Changing

9:52

moments see tell us why

9:54

and. What? Would what That conversation

9:57

both. Well. It was because.

9:59

Ah, They said look I gotta tell you

10:01

but some stuff that happened at school some

10:04

particular individuals particularly this one individual our that

10:06

I mean so complex I won't name any

10:08

names just make it make it out of

10:10

like a bus or the when he does

10:13

to do the legal checks is just too

10:15

much pain in the Us so I'll just

10:17

gonna present whatever semester this particular name and

10:19

I said the guys first name on he

10:22

went straight away with the with the second

10:24

name or not it was a cast froze

10:26

thinking. Oh. My. God. It's

10:28

out that that's absolutely out that this

10:30

is this is this is an absolute

10:33

thing and it's widespread because you can

10:35

a gun slice it all your life

10:37

but think l a lot stuff happens

10:39

of schools like that and of his

10:41

private day a private they school in

10:43

Edinburgh which had borders is Ross the

10:45

something that was we just some get

10:48

on with it and you'd you'd witnessed

10:50

these things since the age of ten

10:52

year and and experience the as well

10:54

at about twelve or thirteen yes I

10:56

I I witnessed this particular man. And

10:58

or others of course but for

11:00

I was a subject to as

11:02

well. But this particular man was

11:05

prolific and we worked or is

11:07

one of the most prolific beautiful

11:09

Us and British criminal history. But

11:11

what happened then is that I.

11:13

Owned my friend. Who

11:16

was thick as we always refer to be

11:19

referred to are all obliquely in their weaknesses

11:21

or member Amy was a perma banned recently

11:23

did with are actually going what was his

11:25

men talking to each other but we never

11:28

actually when. What

11:30

did he do to you Whenever to.which? is

11:32

kind of so oh you know we were

11:34

just. A few degrees away

11:36

from thought. You'd always said, in contact with

11:38

a. Group. Of Cf These guys.

11:40

Yeah, yeah. and then. What is

11:42

the front? I'd spoken on the phone he he

11:44

was very quiet, none I said it's incredible. Come

11:46

on. I sent him some documentation alice except me

11:48

look look at all the schools he went to.

11:51

Little is done and started out at other data

11:53

and then I got an email. Three

11:55

hours later from him beautifully

11:57

written email. About some.

12:00

What? Helped him. I

12:02

broke my heart. Absolutely broke my

12:04

heart because we never spoken about

12:07

it. And it was.

12:09

It was. it was really. What's. The

12:11

word really affecting and and and

12:13

beautifully powerfully put I was there

12:15

are not in the sense of

12:17

not an any some prevent way

12:19

but in emotionally his when he

12:22

said nobody had been that close

12:24

to me, not even my own

12:26

father. The campaigning

12:28

and of that person inside you

12:30

wanted them to take this. Further,

12:33

and you are obsessive my

12:35

your energize. I might as well

12:37

suddenly because as you say if in there

12:39

for all those years and suddenly you had

12:42

other people were gonna talk about this and

12:44

your natural kind of some for his to

12:46

talk about things and that nothing you do

12:48

best is talking So so how did how

12:51

did it work that you then could take

12:53

this own inner and a professional capacity. Will

12:55

had a light moment. I mean I said

12:57

well unless up Alex likes to podcast together,

12:59

let's get this out there because all of

13:01

a sudden as I said it's like the

13:04

grownups known that the something we've suppressed we

13:06

we would both it it done for so

13:08

long. Let's talk about this is not acceptable

13:10

What happened and here we are in our

13:12

late fifties, early sixties and always in all

13:14

of a sudden. Sort of yes, We're

13:17

still little boys but we cannot do something

13:19

about it and so did on the

13:21

radio and then l started. It wasn't just

13:24

a will went crazy. So went crazy

13:26

from people who. Experiences

13:28

in their own lives with us went

13:30

crazy. People who are that school earns?

13:32

I'd I became of the cause you

13:35

had him were yeah. Incredible Jan the

13:37

people who got in touch have. Noticed

13:39

have made you. I mean it on the one,

13:41

Honey Philip, You feel comfort from that that you're

13:44

able to give people an outlet. Well.

13:47

Yes, i did and i was of

13:49

is really on a mission but every day i

13:51

was getting somebody from the school get in touch

13:53

sink try talks you can i talk to an

13:55

act of at that stage it was like literally

13:57

one a day and that were on for above

14:00

three or four months and it's sort of come down, it's just sort of

14:02

two a week. And now it's like one

14:04

every two weeks minutes. And how does that make

14:06

you see your own mental health? It

14:09

was really difficult, but it was counterbalanced by the fact that

14:11

I was really on one and I was on this mission.

14:14

I just remember there was one

14:16

particular call and

14:19

he said, I was a

14:21

year below you at school, got me on Twitter, said, can I have

14:23

a word with you? Can we have a quick chat? I said, yeah,

14:25

DM me, boom, boom. He said,

14:27

I've got a name written down on a

14:29

bit of paper here because the teacher in

14:31

question was, a pseudonym was

14:33

being used for him at that stage. He's

14:36

got, I've got a name written down on

14:38

a bit of paper, who is it? And

14:40

I went, it's, and

14:42

then I had this phone

14:45

clattering on the floor and

14:47

I heard a man of my age

14:50

sobbing in the background,

14:53

sobbing. And it's, it

14:55

still affects me talking about it. And

14:58

then he came back to the phone, I started sobbing.

15:01

He said, never told anyone in

15:03

his life about this. Never

15:05

told his partner, never told his family,

15:07

never told his friends, but

15:10

just hearing about it on the radio. And there's the guy,

15:12

and also the guy who

15:14

abused me, a guy called Hamish Dawson, who's

15:17

dead. So don't worry about

15:19

the legal. So he, I mentioned him when

15:24

I went on the radio to

15:26

talk about it, because I wanted to put

15:28

into context our own experience,

15:30

my own experiences witnessing and

15:34

suffering from it and surviving

15:36

it. And so I mentioned

15:38

that Hamish Dawson on the

15:40

broadcast, and then it was on the one o'clock news, because

15:42

I think it was a slow news day. It was all

15:44

over the place. And it was on the lunchtime

15:46

news on Radio 4. And this

15:48

guy had been watching some news on Radio 4 and

15:50

he said the power of the moment of

15:53

hearing, after all these years, my

15:56

abuser's name on BBC Radio

15:58

4. radio for

16:01

news at lunchtime. He

16:03

said, I dropped to my knees. And

16:06

how had his life been affected?

16:08

Terrible. A lot of these guys

16:10

speaking to them, and

16:13

we're like a band of brothers now,

16:15

and sisters and some women from

16:18

schools and other experiences are with us.

16:21

Some of us never met, but it's like we've known each

16:23

other all our lives. This is such a commonality of experience.

16:26

But a lot of those guys, third

16:28

marriage, substance abuse,

16:31

lack of trust in anyone, shadows

16:34

on the wall at three o'clock in the morning. Some

16:37

of us have dealt with it in different ways. One

16:39

of my things was kind of defiance, wanting to

16:41

prove our body wrong. I'm

16:44

pathetic, but when I went to the Scottish Child

16:47

Abuse Inquiry and gave evidence there, there was a

16:49

whole bank of people from the school. It was

16:51

like a judge led inquiry with oaths and all

16:53

sorts of stuff going on and

16:56

barristers, QCs, banks of people on

16:58

it, IKEA furniture typing, and

17:02

public gallery and press gallery. And there

17:04

was a bank of people from the school there, which

17:06

is a very different place now. But

17:08

I wanted them to announce me as Nicky

17:11

Campbell OBE, because I

17:13

thought I was taking a look at that. And I

17:17

said, well, we can't really do that because

17:19

it's all right. I said, I was running

17:21

through a pathetic thing. Could you not just

17:23

announce it so that I can walk out

17:25

and look at them? Yeah. In spite of

17:27

you, I actually made a success of my

17:29

life. But not everybody was as lucky. No.

17:32

And was not supposed lucky. They didn't have the opportunities

17:34

or their life didn't pan out the

17:36

way that they had hoped because of

17:38

the mental anguish and torture

17:40

they carried around with them. Well, yeah. So people

17:42

do it in different ways. There's one guy who

17:44

is a multi, multi, multi zillion, zillion, zillion, zillionaire.

17:47

And he's one of these people who just, money

17:50

seemed to attach itself to him all his

17:52

life. Everything he

17:54

touched on. Absolutely. One of those

17:56

people. Hate them. Absolutely. Absolutely hate

17:59

them. He was playing golf

18:02

with one of the guys in the group and

18:04

he said why what do you make of this some?

18:07

business and Nicky Campbell's talked about with the school and

18:11

Graham who it was said I pretended not

18:13

to acknowledge it. I don't know. I think

18:15

it's it's quite good actually It's got out

18:17

there and he said well

18:19

this particular man who was the one Alex Renton

18:22

was specifically talking about whose name I would mention

18:24

He he did such and such and such and

18:26

such to me, but I'm okay. All

18:29

right You know, I'm

18:31

fine. Yeah, I just I don't think about it

18:33

very much. I'm fine. Yeah, okay Where's

18:36

my ball next next day? The

18:39

multi zillion zillion zillionaire rang Graham and

18:42

said, you know our conversation yesterday What

18:45

can I do about it? And

18:48

so it kind of all all comes

18:50

out no matter how much you bury

18:53

it kind of try and mask it and bury it And

18:56

he's he realized how much it had affected him.

18:58

Yeah Yeah, it makes me feel quite

19:00

emotional listening to that because you think about all those

19:02

little kids and their Potential

19:04

in life that could be you know could

19:06

have been very different I mean

19:08

he did okay in life obviously, but not

19:10

everybody does was a panorama, which we did call

19:13

my teacher the abuser They

19:15

try and watch it. They did just a brilliant job and

19:18

six of us did it and there's a guy

19:20

called George Who's on that program?

19:23

Who works? I think it's in oldies

19:26

at the till He's you know,

19:28

he's got an up-and-down. He's got the most

19:30

brilliant mind and he's one of those people

19:32

They filmed in in his house and he's

19:34

got like papers legal papers everywhere about the

19:36

extradition and that he's like a fantastic character

19:38

carries all this this legal

19:40

stuff and his reams and reams and reams of

19:42

legal documents around in a in a You

19:45

know supermarket bag everywhere and he's

19:48

but you know, it's life absolutely blighted and he's a

19:50

brilliant guy And he could have gone all the way

19:52

and he was an oxbridge Potential

19:54

candidate when he went to fetters, which is the school

19:56

this guy went to after he left the Edinburgh Academy

20:00

reference and

20:02

he was it everything changed everything

20:05

changed what has changed for you since

20:08

the initial conversation with Alex and then what's

20:10

happened well is this whole thing but

20:13

do you feel somehow lighter for this

20:15

I do I do and I

20:17

don't I when I appeared at the Scottish Child

20:19

Abuse Inquiry I I

20:21

said it was I mean it was it was the heart I

20:23

have put it like this I said it was the one of

20:26

the toughest days of my life but it was one of the

20:28

best days of my life because

20:30

people had come from everywhere you

20:32

know guys whose lives had opened up had

20:35

been liberated I didn't say I'm not taking credit

20:37

for it because there was stuff going on before

20:39

but just having a microphone

20:42

you know and being able to put it out

20:45

there it's tremendous privilege it's great

20:47

fun and it's a great

20:49

earner but it's a tremendous privilege as

20:52

well and it's good to be able to use it

20:54

in that sense and

20:56

it's you know some

20:58

guy came from Sweden and I came from

21:00

Cornwall and George Kendall everywhere

21:02

there's like 25 of the guys turned up they

21:05

were in the gallery and when I

21:07

finished my bit they said mr. Campbell

21:09

is there anything else you would like to add it's not

21:11

the receives of questions and I got my got my bit

21:13

of paper I'd written some stuff down and

21:16

I I just about got through

21:18

I had to keep kind of stopping and

21:20

I said you know I'm here I am at 62 years

21:23

old and I can still see

21:26

X doing this to my friend in the

21:28

changing room I can still feel why throw

21:30

me about like a rat or I can

21:32

still feel M's hands

21:35

in my underwear and

21:37

I can still done it and I did that and

21:39

then it was really emotional and then I finished and

21:43

I heard like a round of

21:45

applause and from the other

21:47

end of the hall all the

21:49

guys clapping

21:52

yeah that was just such a moment for

21:55

me of pride I'd been able

21:57

to galvanize

22:00

That's the word and I went out and there was two guys Well,

22:03

he's hugging each other. I went down it was

22:05

it was it was and then we went We

22:07

went across for a big lunch and panorama came

22:09

and filmed us As

22:11

well, you must must have a look they did

22:14

such a good job. They told that story So

22:16

well and one of the guys He

22:19

went down To south africa for the

22:21

there's a local hearing involved with one of the men

22:24

involved and he went down to south africa and stood

22:26

In the court sat in the court

22:28

behind him and there's a shot where you see

22:31

the focus on this man And then

22:33

it pulls focus on to neil who's sitting behind him. It's

22:35

just weeping because it became like a 10 year old boy

22:38

Uh in and that's extraordinary and he's a

22:40

he's about this minister neil and

22:44

I said, um I

22:46

said, oh my god, I'm I I have no religion and I

22:48

said neil I just wish there were hell for him to go

22:50

to and neil went There

22:53

is I said, listen, let's not

22:55

start this theological debate now, but

22:57

presumably being a baptist minister You

23:00

can forgive him and

23:02

he said no no

23:06

Yes. Yeah, but here

23:09

you are That's not the first time

23:11

I think that you've done amazing things to

23:13

use your platform to talk about difficult subjects

23:15

You know this as you

23:17

say, it's a privilege to have to have that

23:19

platform. You've used it Well, I think what you've

23:22

done obviously with your talking about your adoption and

23:24

and even long-lost families itself I think is is

23:26

such a a powerful public

23:28

service in many ways, isn't it

23:30

for people in terms of how that show brings

23:34

families together but also highlights, you know the importance

23:36

of identity and you know, it's so easy to

23:38

say isn't it? They're adopted they're adopted and you

23:40

kind of you've got no experience I which is

23:42

kind of walk on with that but how it

23:44

affects people for the rest of their lives I

23:46

think it's been so brilliant and yet and yet

23:48

so that was reminded of it in the last

23:51

Week because when we're recording this your

23:53

great friend and former colleague at radio

23:55

one Steve Wright has died And I think back

23:57

to the beginning of your career could have all

24:00

gone so differently. You know, it's like

24:02

you've had so many serious touchstones

24:04

and yet so much fun and frivolity

24:06

along the way. Not many get to

24:08

marry all those things together. How

24:11

do you do it? Well, when I, actually,

24:14

Steve knew since 1985, when I came down

24:17

to Capitol Radio from North Hand Radio in

24:19

Aberdeen, I sort of got catapulted. And I

24:21

sent him a tape and said there was

24:23

a job as a producer and I sent

24:25

him a tape and I said, well, maybe

24:28

let's try his presenter. I thought, oh my God.

24:30

And all of a sudden I was walking around

24:32

with Alan Freeman and Kenny Evera and Chris Tarrant

24:34

and all these amazing people that remember the Capitol

24:37

buildings been used to the road, that big building.

24:40

And so, but

24:42

Steve Wright was like, he was like

24:44

the avatar. What he could do is,

24:46

and I said, you know, technician and

24:48

magician, absolutely creating magic, radio

24:51

magic. He was just brilliant at it.

24:53

I described it as

24:55

meticulous mayhem. It was

24:58

all beautifully worked out. It sounded fantastic. And so

25:00

I decided to do a little skit about him.

25:02

I did that. All right, we got the get

25:04

the geese off. Get the geese off. I did

25:06

a sort of skit on Capitol Radio and he

25:08

got in touch. I got the call saying, bring

25:10

Steve. Steve Wright got in touch with you. It was

25:12

an amazing moment. He was just checking in saying,

25:15

he wasn't saying it was particularly good, but he just

25:17

saying, well, you know, well done for having a go.

25:19

And I heard you and I enjoyed the show and

25:21

stuff like that. It was amazing. Yeah. Amazing. So when

25:23

I joined, I heard a lot of talk about the

25:25

radio to family and I did think to myself, 1987

25:30

radio one wasn't family's not a word I would use or if it was,

25:32

it would be mansions

25:34

rather than Waltons.

25:38

But he was that one kind of consistent,

25:40

good person that he was a good person.

25:42

And you know, but he's the other

25:44

thing, he was great person. He was really, really

25:46

likable. He was really, really kind as well. Well,

25:49

I kind of, what kind of irks me and I got this

25:52

other people I've known who I've thought

25:54

were fantastic people who've

25:56

died and all of a sudden everyone in

25:58

a sense dehumanizes. Well,

26:01

I think, oh, they were perfect in every way.

26:03

You know, they, you know, they, they floated across

26:05

the water and, and all that

26:07

stuff. And it does dehumanize them without saying,

26:09

you know, no, Steve was complex. You know,

26:11

we're all complex and he could be, you

26:15

know, he could be brittle and he could be

26:17

anxious. Just a

26:19

little bit. Yeah. Yeah. That's

26:21

right. You know, the first line in the obituary is going

26:23

to be dippy egg from the last thing. How

26:26

do you go from the commercial

26:28

radio into the BBC radio family

26:31

and still doing stuff that, you know,

26:34

is fun and jocular and very much,

26:36

you know, on the end of light

26:38

entertainment. Were there always a

26:40

yearning to do something a bit more serious? Well,

26:43

I just started on Dothan radio in the

26:45

newsroom doing the newsroom stuff because I had

26:47

the history. I was also doing the newsroom

26:49

stuff, but I was also, you know, writing

26:51

jingles and things like that. It's

26:53

a jack of all trades and master

26:55

of. You presented Newsnight as we mentioned,

26:58

watchdog, right? We've mentioned dippy egg, watchdog

27:00

and Newsnight and radio one, you know,

27:02

so so there's a there's a real

27:04

kind of I think enviable. Not many

27:06

people can kind of have that

27:08

that spread and be taken seriously in all of

27:10

them and entertaining all of them as well. It

27:13

fits your personality. Maybe. I think it

27:15

does. It's the old bipolar ADHD thing. You

27:17

know, when I got diagnosed as

27:19

ADHD, because my daughter is severe

27:22

ADHD, literally, she was like, we

27:24

thought what we're going to do, we have to spend a send it

27:26

to a special school. This is school

27:29

is an absolute disaster, absolute

27:31

disaster. And then

27:33

we said, well, let's let's let's see what we can do.

27:36

Let's take her along because we

27:38

can afford it. And there's another scandal. Take

27:40

her along to get a diagnosed, diagnosed, proper

27:44

diagnosis, proper prescription. And

27:46

that's the other thing to get exactly what's right

27:48

for you. And I every day I know how

27:50

lucky we are to be able to have done

27:52

that. And that changed her life. She went to

27:54

a stars. Literally

27:56

overnight. Amazing. It was

27:58

extraordinary. But then you thought. up. No,

28:01

she said she kept saying to me, you know,

28:03

get tested, you get tested, because I'm saying like

28:05

five minutes into the film. I said, Who's that?

28:07

What's that? I didn't know. I said, I think

28:09

about something else. I can't watch films or read

28:11

books unless it really gets me then I get

28:13

hyper focused. And I can't, I can't put it

28:15

down, but has to this kind of high bar.

28:17

So I went along, we have two

28:20

hours diagnosing me talking and talking and talking

28:22

and talking and talking and talking and talking

28:24

and talking, ticking boxes, filling things in describing

28:26

life and, and so forth. And then at

28:28

the end of it, he said, Yes, you've

28:31

got your ADHD, but I'm not,

28:33

I'm not going to say anything else. Apart

28:36

from given what you do, given what your job is.

28:38

Congratulations. And

28:43

did he recommend any changes at all? He

28:46

said, he said, you're, you're in the perfect,

28:48

you're doing the perfect thing in

28:50

the perfect job. You've got a loving

28:52

family, you're, you're creative. You're like he said,

28:54

I couldn't, you are in fact, a lot

28:56

of people I see are square pegs in

28:59

roundhalls. You're a square peg in a square

29:01

hole. So go back to your

29:03

constituents and prepare for government. It

29:07

did help you understand yourself. Yeah, it's very expensive.

29:09

He said, imagine if you were

29:11

in an office or imagine if you're doing such and

29:13

such or imagine you wouldn't have survived a few months

29:15

in a job like that, would you as a lot

29:17

of people with severe ADHD who are undiagnosed to find

29:19

life really difficult. I read a brilliant article at

29:21

the other weekend, the Times. And

29:23

it was a mid thirties woman who she looked

29:26

back at the patterns of her life. And she'd

29:28

been diagnosed with lots of other mental health related

29:30

things. She'd also had periods of drinking too much.

29:32

She had periods of terrible relationships, things

29:35

happening at school, you know, she's finally in

29:37

a relationship where things seem to be settled,

29:39

but she still couldn't work out what it

29:41

was that was not right with her when

29:43

she had the ADHD diagnosis and then got

29:45

some medication, things started to settle down. And

29:47

she worked out that all these other things in

29:49

her life that she thought she was just

29:52

not right, you know, compared to a sibling. Oh,

29:54

yes, it's great. Yeah. And I think that's

29:56

really important because I've always been slightly skeptical

29:58

about latter life ADHD diagnosis. thinking, well, if

30:00

you're all right, why would you need to know? But

30:02

actually, some people do need to work it out. So

30:05

it is helpful. Yeah, absolutely. I think you're right.

30:07

I think you're right. And you can explain a

30:10

lot of addictions, I think. Yeah, that too. Yeah.

30:13

And mistakes, you know,

30:16

that we've made in life. But

30:19

people often say, you know, where you've got your standing

30:21

and doing a debate with all those people, how can

30:23

you remember what everyone says and from person to person

30:25

to person to person and know what they're saying? When

30:27

you've got five people on the radio at the same

30:29

time, how do you manage to get it all going?

30:31

And remember, I said, because it's what the man said,

30:34

you know, is a perfect for you. Congratulations.

30:38

We touched on your lifestyle changing because of not having to

30:40

get up at three o'clock in the morning every day. Although

30:42

you did seem to go through a period and maybe it

30:44

was in lockdown when you were doing a show from home

30:46

where you managed to work out before you even got on

30:48

the radio. So I do 15 minutes on the bike.

30:50

Yeah, before you actually got on the radio. You

30:53

walk the dogs, obviously a lot. How are

30:55

they? Well, I

30:57

don't know about time of broadcast, but it's

31:00

Max was not not well at the moment

31:02

with getting tests this week. But yeah, yeah,

31:04

because he was going to my breakdown. He

31:06

was incredible. He was I'll tell

31:08

you, I know we've discussed dogs before. But

31:12

he, he got it.

31:14

He got you. I when I collapsed

31:16

the useless station sobbing on the sword

31:18

of grass that used to be there,

31:21

when everything just got on top of me and Tina said, Come

31:23

home, come home, come home, come home. And I went home. He

31:25

was literally there. And he literally got up and put his, you

31:27

know, when they put their heads on your chest and stuff like

31:30

that. And it's like, it's

31:32

not it's not Disney, it's actually Darwin, because

31:34

for a pack to function, you have to

31:36

know how the other pack members are. And

31:38

if the other pack members aren't right, you

31:40

know that they're not right. It's the something

31:42

something going on there. And you know,

31:44

that emotional connection that we have with our dogs.

31:46

He's been, he's been

31:49

an amazing dog, just incredible

31:51

dog, the breakdown.

31:53

That must be a moment you look back

31:55

and talked about what's happened in the last couple of years.

31:57

But that, when you look back now must have been a

31:59

big pivotal midlife moment. It was

32:02

a big pivotal midlife moment. And again, I

32:04

was lucky enough to get it diagnosed. And

32:06

it's that there's a great co-morbidity between bipolar

32:09

and ADHD. I mean, how

32:11

medicalized am I? This is ridiculous. I know

32:13

some people think, oh, we medicalize everything, but

32:15

I believe you me, it's real. In

32:20

the buildup to the actual kind of moment

32:22

of obsession, complete and

32:24

utter obsession with, I

32:27

mean, I cared deeply about the world. I'd

32:29

have cared deeply about the planet. I cared

32:32

deeply about all the denizens of the planet.

32:34

And I cared deeply about animals. I've always

32:37

had this connection to animals and

32:40

dogs and other animals. I think they're

32:42

fascinating. I think they're the treasure of

32:45

our world. And I got

32:47

terribly into elephant conservation and

32:50

fighting the ivory trade to

32:52

the extent that if you go into that world, I know

32:54

lots of people who

32:56

have, Jenny Seegro was

32:59

telling me about the late Bill Kenwright, but

33:01

Jenny's a great animal advocate. And she

33:03

introduced Bill to that world. And

33:06

she said, my Bill said to me, oh

33:10

my goodness me, babe, you've

33:12

introduced me to a world of wonder, but you've introduced

33:14

me to such a world of pain. Yeah.

33:17

And the more you look into it, and the more,

33:19

I don't know what was resonating with me psychologically,

33:22

the more you look into baby elephants, absolutely

33:24

mourning their mother, trying to make their mothers

33:26

up before their heads sliced off. And when

33:29

you see elephants mourning their own,

33:31

because they have such extraordinary depth, extraordinary

33:33

emotional range, or amazing self-aware animals. I

33:35

got so involved in that, so involved

33:38

in that. It was every day my

33:40

heart was breaking, but I became

33:42

obsessively involved in it. And

33:44

other things too, I became obsessed about litter

33:47

as well. I was like chasing people around

33:50

the park who were dropping litter. I

33:53

remember one day, people had left a whole lot

33:55

of litter with receipts and stuff like that. So I

33:57

got back very excited with them home, Tina. And I

33:59

said, look. We can get the police. We've got to, we've

34:02

got to, we've got to laugh, don't you? I've got

34:04

the receipts. We can get onto the police and stuff

34:06

like that. So she can- How did you get out

34:08

of the obsessiveness to the point where it could become something

34:10

you care about, but you're not overrun? Well, I

34:13

think I'm back there now, but to be

34:15

honest with you, medication. Ha ha

34:17

ha ha ha. Were you ever

34:19

in danger of falling into a

34:21

real pit of despair over this? Well,

34:24

that was really low. Yeah, I mean, pits of

34:26

despair. That's the other thing. My

34:28

birth mother was bipolar as

34:30

well, bipolar type one, bipolar part

34:33

two. So there's an

34:35

extent where it's a kind of legacy and

34:38

in some strange way, it's a kind of

34:41

emotional connection to her as

34:43

well. It's a part of her, which I

34:45

have. So we are what we are, but

34:48

no, I got through it ish. Obviously,

34:50

there's kind of still ups and downs,

34:53

but it's kind of under control. And

34:56

my family had been amazing. I

34:58

remember the girls saying, when we were that age,

35:00

we thought all that is just started weeping

35:03

and crying for no reason and doing

35:05

that as a, you know, that really

35:08

got to me when they said that,

35:10

but now they understand. Let's

35:28

bring in our expert today, who is... Tommy.

35:35

You're an expert of many, many things, but

35:37

I think you'll enjoy Simon Gunning. Oh, yeah.

35:40

I'm fairly sure that your paths will have crossed professionally. The

35:43

amount of people you've spoken to on the radio, Simon

35:45

Gunning is the CEO of Calm, which is a very,

35:47

very, very important part of the world. And

35:50

I think that's a very important part of the world.

35:53

I think that's a very important part of the world. I

35:56

think that's the CEO of Calm, which is

35:58

a charity focused on... prevention

36:00

of suicide and in

36:02

this country I think the most

36:04

shocking statistic and there are many that involve

36:06

numbers that horrify one when you hear them

36:08

but I think every 90 minutes Simon someone

36:11

in this country takes their own life. Yeah

36:13

that's right every 90 minutes, attempt to be

36:15

three minutes yeah. Which is horrifying

36:18

isn't it that there are

36:20

so many people in such such mental

36:22

states of despair we talked about pits of despair

36:25

but I think one of the most powerful things

36:27

that the campaign that you've recently been involved in

36:29

at Calm is that we just don't know

36:31

what they look like there is no there

36:33

is no visual that tells you somebody is

36:36

in that state. Yeah and it's

36:38

kind of unhelpful to think that there might be so

36:40

what one of the things that we hear so

36:43

often from bereaved people is that they just didn't

36:45

see it coming and and that

36:47

kind of feels absolutely terrifying

36:51

and and the last thing that we

36:53

would want to do is kind of

36:55

push people into a feeling of helplessness

36:58

you know impotent rage all those kinds of

37:00

things but another angle

37:03

on that alongside the the

37:05

horrifying number of attempts is

37:09

ideation so we can't with

37:11

the campaign against living miserably and

37:14

what we know is that one in five people

37:17

in the UK will have

37:19

suicidal ideation so

37:21

this is really really terrifying

37:23

stuff until we start to

37:25

think what can we do about that and a clear

37:29

path that we've

37:31

identified is that actually if

37:34

there's one in five of us ideating

37:36

this is a part of species level

37:39

behavior so this is something

37:41

where you know our ridiculous frontal

37:43

lobes allowed us to protect on

37:45

your pack behavior point Nicky allow

37:47

us to become the dominant

37:50

species on the planet through very very successful

37:53

pack behavior and communication but

37:57

it also allows us to question our existence

37:59

hence you know existential philosophy.

38:02

Once we understand that and we can see

38:05

suicidal behavior, what's known

38:07

as suicidality, a propensity to consider

38:10

suicide as an option, once

38:12

we see that's part of us, of

38:14

our species, then we

38:17

can start to drag it out of the

38:19

dark recesses. So it likes

38:21

the dark, it likes the shame and

38:23

the stigma. What it doesn't

38:25

like is having bright light, you

38:27

know, the cleansing some light should

38:29

upon it. And it's actually

38:32

very easy, things

38:34

in place that we can do, even

38:36

in the context of not having

38:39

signs to spot, to prevent

38:41

suicide by, for example, making

38:44

this species level behavior something that we

38:46

choose to communicate about because we choose

38:48

not to. I've been doing this job

38:51

for seven years, and

38:54

I still come towards that word and

38:56

something in the back of my head

38:58

thinks, how can I avoid saying it?

39:00

How can I get away from this

39:02

horrible subject? So what

39:04

you're saying is talking about it is

39:06

the thing bringing it into the light

39:08

is actually one of the ways that

39:10

you have, or you as a

39:12

charity or the researchers have noticed is a way of stopping

39:15

it or helping to prevent it. Exactly.

39:18

So there's a guy called Professor Rory

39:20

O'Connor, who's done quite a few, the

39:23

podcast called The Spark for BBC,

39:25

which if anybody wants to hear

39:27

how a real academic says it

39:29

rather than an idiot like me,

39:32

he talks about low cost interventions, and

39:35

the World Health Organization talk

39:37

about suicide as the most preventable cause of

39:39

it, but those low cost interventions and

39:42

simple interventions are literally

39:44

talking about the subject, a

39:47

massive admirer of the way that organizations

39:49

like Stonewall have moved us on

39:52

from the dark ages of frankly

39:55

offensive Saturday night homophobic

39:57

comedy on telly. you

40:00

know, pretty much all right-minded

40:02

people wanting to discuss

40:05

and embrace the rights of everybody,

40:08

we need country to get to

40:10

that place with this subject, this

40:12

horrible, shameful subject shrouded

40:14

in stigma that

40:16

proliferates because of that, where we can move

40:18

our society so that our kids are

40:21

able to talk about suicide as this

40:23

human thing, as this normal

40:26

thing that must be confronted that we can

40:28

really make some changes. So one

40:30

in five people would have

40:32

some kind of thought process that involves, even

40:34

if it's as simple as saying, life would

40:36

be better without me. Is that the clear?

40:38

You know that? So that's not saying I'm

40:40

going to plan how I end my life.

40:43

It's just those fleeting thoughts that people might

40:45

have. And when you say ideation, that's what

40:47

you're talking about. That's what we're talking

40:49

about. But as so we work across what we

40:51

call the continuum. So we're here to help people

40:53

who are feeling great and always have done right

40:55

the way through to people at a point, the

40:57

suicidal crisis where we have a

41:00

helpline, which is unusual in that it's

41:02

staffed by paid and trained

41:04

professional people who will really

41:06

intervene. We are hyperinterventionalists and we

41:08

will help people put plans in

41:10

place to

41:13

get to a happier place. As

41:16

soon as you start introducing suicide as

41:18

an option, what

41:21

we have to do is prevent

41:23

that ideation turn into volition. And

41:26

you don't know where on that continuum

41:28

that that change can take place. There's

41:31

our patron is Ramesh Ranganathan.

41:34

And he talks about it in a way that

41:36

really sort of I'd never heard before,

41:38

really open my eyes to how

41:41

he sees suicidal ideation, which is where when he

41:43

was having a pretty rough time

41:46

in his childhood, sort of teenage

41:48

years, he found the

41:50

thought of suicide as something comforting that

41:52

he could turn it off, that

41:55

you could just switch off and the

41:57

stuff that was upset. addressing

42:00

him would be gone.

42:02

However, of course, he

42:04

clearly understands that that

42:06

shift from a comforting thought through

42:09

to a very dangerous behaviour is something that

42:11

we need to have plans in

42:13

place, we need to have options for people put in

42:15

place to avoid that happening. It's

42:19

quite scary actually to think about how quickly

42:21

some people make that shift though, isn't it?

42:23

And you often hear about

42:25

people, I know somebody who took

42:28

their own life from a Saturday booking tickets

42:30

to a festival where there clearly was a

42:32

plan for a future to the

42:34

next day deciding to end it

42:36

all. And it's how you can

42:38

see where to intervene, I think is the

42:41

million dollar question, isn't it? Yeah, and also

42:44

I was on a train about a couple of

42:46

years ago and somebody had thrown themselves onto the

42:48

track and a number of people who

42:50

were kind of furious with that

42:52

person and swearing about that person,

42:55

how selfish that person was. It

42:57

was just terrible. I remember

42:59

one well-known figure going public on that saying,

43:01

oh my God, these people are so selfish.

43:03

You just think to

43:05

be in that situation of despair, to be

43:08

able to do that, for heaven's sake, have some

43:11

compassion and understanding. Understanding,

43:14

yeah, and trying to work out almost

43:16

as an academic, you refer to a

43:18

paper there, but where that

43:20

comes and how the mental shift happens, it's

43:24

almost impossible because you've got to get into somebody's

43:26

mind, haven't you? And I guess you have

43:28

to retrospectively ask people what made you not do

43:30

it? What was the point where

43:33

you decided it was better to be here? Or

43:36

demonstrate that it can be best to be here.

43:38

There's a thing, I'm sure

43:40

we're all opera buffs on this podcast, aren't we? I know

43:42

that I am. My first show on commercial

43:45

radio was called The World of Opera. The

43:49

manager director said, do you like opera? So

43:55

you'd be more than familiar with

43:57

the magic flute, obviously. Modern. There's

43:59

a character. I'm told by

44:01

people that know called Papageno is

44:04

a little bird and Whilst

44:07

it is abundantly clear that suicide

44:09

is contagious massively contagious if you're

44:11

directly affected by suicide in your

44:13

family that Suicidality that propensity to

44:16

consider it as an option becomes

44:19

much much more dangerous Whilst

44:22

we know that suicide is contagious.

44:24

We also know that survival is

44:26

as contagious that comes again from

44:28

academic sources And that's known

44:30

as the Papageno effect. I have no idea why I've

44:32

never seen the magic flute, but I should find out

44:34

really those stories

44:37

of survival of getting to a point

44:39

of Either adjacent

44:41

to or a point of

44:43

absolute despair, but life continuing

44:45

finding happiness understanding that

44:49

the future doesn't have to be

44:52

Predicted based on the present and the past

44:54

that things can change and that things can

44:56

get better Somebody on our one of our

44:58

socials made a beautiful video a really

45:01

young girl who

45:03

had been ready to take her

45:05

own life and he

45:08

had and her friends made

45:10

a video they they brought her a cake

45:12

and We

45:14

took about stay we took up. We had a big campaign.

45:16

That's just said that was just called stay and Cake

45:19

said I stayed and I

45:22

slayed and it's just that life

45:24

had got better And this is the look on

45:26

her face of total joy was just a lovely

45:28

sort of inspiring

45:31

Sort of low-cost intervention,

45:34

but whilst we have

45:36

but of the very solid thing in our

45:38

helpline That people you're just flawless.

45:41

It's free to call call us and we'll help

45:43

you those kind of Cultural

45:45

changes that we can make I stayed

45:47

and I slayed those can be things

45:49

that people will stick in their minds

45:52

and that when that Spontaneity of ideation

45:54

to volition come around we can provide

45:56

options. That's interesting narrative shift, isn't it

45:59

people talking about? about openly, I

46:02

thought about it, I almost did it, but

46:04

I'm here and you don't hear many of

46:06

those stories, those first-hand accounts,

46:08

do you, in the same way that

46:10

you perhaps would the language which I'm

46:13

not always a fan of, I survived

46:15

cancer, which by implication means that some

46:17

people don't, which, you know. Or I fought

46:19

bravely. Yeah, exactly, yeah. But

46:21

you do hear people talking about coming through

46:23

cancer and almost dying and, you know, coming

46:26

through the other side. So that's

46:28

something, I guess, that you would be, as

46:30

a charity, encouraging people to be, if

46:32

they want to, to be vocal about that. I

46:35

think it could be about the

46:37

most powerful story for somebody who's

46:39

in a point of despair, to

46:42

hear that someone else was

46:45

in that position as well, and

46:47

that someone else made a

46:49

decision to stay, and that decision was

46:51

the right one. I think it's when, I'm

46:54

interested in sort of, I'll

46:57

say something really pretentious that just came into

46:59

my head, the proximity of the hope horizon.

47:01

Yeah, hang on. Not pretentious, it's

47:03

the proximity of the hope horizon. There you

47:05

go, you can have that, just made that

47:08

up. What I mean is, how

47:11

far does hope stretch? If you're a

47:13

16-year-old, what is hope? What's

47:16

the time associated with that? If you're

47:18

a 70-year-old, what's the time associated with

47:20

that? And so when

47:23

we're telling those stories of survival,

47:25

we're just talking about a future,

47:28

a non-determinate future, which can

47:30

be better. That

47:33

decision-making process is something which is so

47:35

hard to intervene upon when somebody is

47:38

in a point of absolute crisis, and

47:40

that that perspective of things

47:42

being open to positive change is so

47:44

important. Simon, thank you so much.

47:47

Carry on doing the great work you're doing. It's really

47:49

great of you to come on and share

47:51

all those thoughts and ideas. And the

47:53

proximity of the hope horizon will be a phrase appearing

47:55

shortly on your radio. I

47:58

like feet-shirts, mate. listening to

48:00

Nikki's phone in you'll definitely hear it

48:02

on 5 Live between 9 and 11 every

48:04

weekday morning. Thank you

48:07

Simon, take care. Thank you, cheers. You

48:09

were talking before when I said Simon

48:11

was coming on about you know young

48:13

guys that you know through your daughters

48:15

and people I'm going to think it's

48:17

just always the most devastating

48:20

thing to hear isn't it when a

48:22

young person feels that there is no

48:25

hope and there is no way out and

48:27

as you say sometimes plans were being made

48:30

you know I'll see you all on Saturday because

48:32

my daughters have a terrifying number

48:34

of people that they knew and know at

48:36

university who took their own lives and I

48:38

don't know what the stats are but there's

48:40

a lot of young men. There

48:43

are a lot of young men and there are

48:45

in the midlife to do with hormone changes, a

48:48

lot of women as well which is

48:51

also so devastating when you know

48:53

I always think like the reason

48:55

why I started this podcast partly as well is that you

48:57

know women get to this stage and we all get to

48:59

this stage, this should be going into the great years when

49:01

you've done all the hard work you brought up the little

49:03

kids you've you know you've done all the the juggling of

49:06

your career and everything and you get to this point where

49:08

you can make decisions free of a lot of kind of

49:10

shackles around you I know that there's then the sandwich thing

49:12

where you've got your parents to worry about and all that

49:14

but do you feel you're in that

49:16

that kind of period now that you're very much

49:19

kind of free of your kids certainly aren't

49:21

you on a daily basis so enjoying their

49:23

lives does everything feel positive? Well one of

49:25

the really yeah one of the really gratifying things is

49:27

when I get together with all my old school friends

49:29

and we you know we're all sort of late 50s

49:32

and early 60s of that particular

49:34

vintage and we do you know obviously we talk about

49:36

a lot of bad stuff but we do have a

49:38

lot of laughs and one

49:40

of the things that makes me feel good is I look 10 years younger than any

49:42

of them. You

49:44

look flicking marvellous, you haven't changed

49:47

at all. Where is the portrait in

49:49

the attic? Is it in Scotland somewhere?

49:53

I suck my stomach in too much I give myself a

49:55

hernia. I

49:58

mean I don't know it's you know. I

50:00

look after myself. You watch what you eat?

50:02

I do, yeah, to a extent. I like

50:04

chocolate. You don't drink loads. I like, we

50:06

don't drink drugs, you know, but Friday night,

50:09

two large whiskies, you know, nothing during the

50:11

week, that's okay, isn't it? Of course. You

50:13

drink. That's not loads, yeah. A few gin and tonic, from the end of

50:15

the week. Yeah, from the end

50:17

of the week. And then in terms

50:19

of the physique, you know,

50:22

you're running, you're still running? No, not the

50:24

bike. I occasionally run, but at the bike,

50:26

do the bike. Cycling. The cycling,

50:28

a little bit of kind

50:30

of core Pilates. I should. No? I

50:33

really should. I look at, you know, people like yourself

50:35

and Davina talking about it,

50:37

and I see she bends herself every which

50:39

way, and I kind of think maybe I

50:41

should give that a go, because, well, she's,

50:43

you know, Davina's 55. Yeah, amazing. She's absolutely

50:46

incredible. Yeah. But, you

50:48

know, she's such a life force. Yeah, absolutely.

50:50

When I took that bloody egghead off, and

50:52

I saw, I was just so pleased to

50:54

see her. It was

50:57

like a bird coming out of a cage. It was just

50:59

a, I must say, she rang me straight after when I

51:01

was on my way home. And

51:03

in true Davina style, the phone went, I

51:05

was leaving to go back home after being

51:07

infected. And it was literally, And

51:12

we both said it was actually, I know this

51:14

sounds a bit funny and so

51:16

busy and lovely and all that, but it was one

51:18

of the great moments of my life. Yeah, but you're

51:20

allowed to have those as well. Yeah. You

51:23

know, you're allowed to say that that was great and not

51:25

be apologetic for it. I think that's one of the beauties

51:27

of midlife, isn't it? Not being, not apologizing for yourself. Yeah.

51:30

Just enjoying those moments as well. Yeah. I

51:32

mean, I would let yourself go and say what you think and

51:34

say who you are and be how you feel. Do

51:36

you have an end plan with

51:38

broadcasting or will you just carry on on the

51:41

mic until you decide

51:43

or somebody hooks you up? Exactly.

51:46

Exactly. Because there are

51:48

so many ways to broadcast now. But what

51:50

I will do is I will, like Steve,

51:53

like our friend Steve, the great man, the

51:55

fine man, the lovely man, the funny, funny,

51:57

funny man is is to not not complain

51:59

about Just say thanks very much. I've

52:02

had a great time and thanks for

52:04

the privilege. See you on a radio with

52:06

beak While

52:09

they are Sky

52:11

FM. Yeah sky. That's a brilliant station. Is

52:13

it great? Well, I'm just imagining there would

52:16

be it's called Nevis Nevis I thought it

52:18

is still running at the moment You're still

52:20

you know so so much in that

52:22

in the kind of central kind of

52:24

heartbeat of five live obviously and still

52:26

Broadcasting on TV as well. I'm sure

52:28

you've got a million other ideas. You've got your podcast

52:30

which comes and goes on the Yes,

52:33

yeah, it's different were you into different

52:35

people? It's yeah a panoply of different

52:38

people It's amazing because I love

52:40

those I mean you're so good at this But I love

52:42

those long-form interviews because you know, it's like on the radio.

52:44

It's like a six-minute. Mmm But

52:46

you have extraordinary characters we do and the

52:49

one it's called different and you can get

52:51

it on BBC signs But I'm the one

52:53

I'm really really proud of well,

52:55

I'm proud of a lot of them But it's

52:57

the one with Jenny Pearson now

53:00

That's that one award for best

53:02

interview at the British podcast awards

53:04

and she is the daughter of

53:07

the man who abused me That was the most I

53:10

stopped me in my tracks I was getting changed and

53:12

I kind of sat down and didn't didn't

53:14

move isn't she incredible amazing? Yeah, what

53:16

a life I think if you don't listen to

53:19

any other difference and you should and you

53:21

do need to go and download that episode right

53:23

now I think it really is. I mean everything

53:25

we've talked about with what's gone on in those

53:27

two years I think that interview kind of gives

53:29

you a perspective that will

53:32

make you look at it Yeah, she's

53:34

extraordinary and I remember walking up We did

53:36

it at the studio in High Street in

53:38

Edinburgh Upsome metal

53:40

steps and beautiful down one of those

53:43

back wines lovely student, you know

53:45

these places that exist And

53:47

we went to the studio and did it and it was intense

53:49

and I remember walking under the street after we'd think

53:52

bye to Jenny and just go Oh,

53:54

is everyone went by their business on the on the high

53:56

street in Edinburgh and there was a Piper up at the

53:58

top and then I thought Well, when's my planes

54:01

not till nine o'clock tonight? And

54:03

so I rang my mate Simon,

54:05

who's a writer. And I said, you're

54:07

around. He said, yeah, yeah. And I said, I've

54:10

not done this for ages, but why is he

54:12

getting drunk? And

54:15

his fortitude, he wrote. He

54:17

said, why is he getting drunk? He said, why? I said, he

54:19

said, I'm free. I said, yeah, OK. I'll meet you down at

54:21

Leith, that fish restaurant. Let's get drunk. He said, why? I said,

54:24

I'll tell you when we get there. And

54:26

were you successful? Yeah, we got drunk. And

54:28

you made the plane. I made the plane. I'd

54:30

quite like to have sat near you on the plane on the

54:33

way home. Or was it just a lot of medium snoring? Drunk.

54:35

Yeah. Drunk these days isn't like drunk

54:37

like it used to be. Drunk these days

54:39

is kind of, you know, slightly merry. It's

54:41

like two and a half glasses as opposed

54:43

to one. Exactly. Nicky, our time sadly is

54:45

up. There are so many other subjects. I'd say

54:47

there'll be a volume two probably of this interview.

54:50

A lot of people were very happy when I

54:52

mentioned I was speaking to you today. Oh. And

54:54

a few of them said to me, and these

54:56

are personal friends, not telly or radio friends said

54:58

one of the great voices, and you have got

55:00

one of the great voices. And I hope we

55:02

continue to hear it on our way for many

55:04

years to come. That is so kind. I've

55:07

wanted to come on this for ages and

55:09

ages and ages. And now that you've invited

55:11

me on, you are completely forgiven. Take

55:16

care. Thank you. Thank you. Wow.

55:23

Such a pleasure to sit down with

55:25

Nicky once more. I respect and admire

55:27

his honesty and his openness so much.

55:30

And the resiliency shown as well, not

55:32

just to survive such terrible experiences,

55:34

but to thrive and to help others

55:37

to do that too. He's a special

55:39

guy. There were lots of takeaways

55:41

from what Simon said as well, including the

55:43

importance of talking about suicide as a part

55:45

of human behavior in order to prevent

55:47

it. Something to get your head

55:49

around, isn't it? And for more on that,

55:51

you can head to Calms website,

55:54

thecalmsone.net, or if you'd like

55:56

to speak to someone, call their helpline on

55:58

0800. Thanks

56:03

again to Nicky Gamble and to Simon

56:05

Gunning and to Spiritland Creative and to

56:07

you for keeping me company. I'll be back

56:09

next Wednesday. Catch you then.