0:00

Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. At Mint Mobile, we

0:02

like to do the opposite of what big

0:04

wireless does. They charge you a lot, we

0:06

charge you a little. So naturally, when they

0:08

announced they'd be raising their prices due to

0:10

inflation, we decided to deflate our prices due

0:12

to not hating you. That's right. We're cutting

0:15

the price of Mint Unlimited from $30 a

0:17

month to just $15 a month. Give

0:21

it a try at mintmobile.com/Switch.

0:23

New activation and upfront payment for three-month plan

0:26

required. Taxes and fees extra. Additional restrictions apply.

0:28

See mintmobile.com for full terms. Hello,

0:37

and welcome back to The Midpoint with me, Gabby

0:39

Logan. Now, I guess we're fully into the swing

0:41

of 2024, so I hope

0:44

the new year is treating you well.

0:46

How are those resolutions holding up? Well,

0:48

someone who's ruled out resolutions in favor

0:51

of reset moments this year is today's

0:53

guest, Rosie Nixon, former editor-in-chief of Hello!

0:55

magazine and now creative consultant, author

0:58

of three novels and counting, and host

1:00

of the In a Good Place podcast.

1:02

We're going to be discussing the events

1:04

in Rosie's life, which prompted her to

1:06

reinvent her career in midlife and how

1:08

burnout made her reevaluate what success really

1:10

means. We're also going to be chatting

1:13

to Isabel Williams, who has also experienced

1:15

a bit of a career pivot in

1:17

midlife. Isabel and I used to work

1:19

together when she produced TV and radio,

1:22

but now she works as a psychotherapist.

1:24

So we'll also be discussing the power

1:26

of talking therapies. Right now, though, Rosie

1:29

Nixon joins me in my podcast room.

1:35

Rosie Nixon, thank you so much for coming to

1:37

my podcast room. It is great to see you.

1:39

Oh, thank you for having me. Yeah, I'm very

1:41

good. How are you? Yeah, great. 2024 going well

1:43

so far? It is, you

1:45

know. Yeah, it's got off to a really

1:47

good start. The sun's shining brightly, even though

1:50

it's freezing cold, which just really helps, doesn't

1:52

it? So I've been able to get outside

1:54

a lot and that makes a difference in

1:56

winter. All the things that make us feel

1:58

good, apart from I've noticed. like

2:00

dry skin because you're in central heating too much

2:02

aren't you but anyway that's put that

2:04

aside I'm gonna get straight into the

2:06

big topic that you've been talking about

2:09

recently you wrote a brilliant article in

2:11

the Telegraph about what kind

2:13

of pushed you to make some big

2:15

life choices and it's

2:17

so interesting because the word

2:19

burnout you use to

2:21

describe that sensation in the last week and I don't

2:23

know whether it's the universe sending me these kind of

2:25

things you know you you

2:27

use that word I've read about four articles since

2:30

about kind of how to avoid it and what

2:32

it means and what it looks like and then

2:34

a midpoint list that yesterday got in

2:36

contact with me and said please can you have

2:38

somebody on to talk about burnout I'm so worried

2:40

about how I balance everything in mid life and

2:42

it feels like it's going to be a much

2:44

bigger topic for a lot of people

2:46

in this period but your story first

2:49

so you were

2:51

hugely successful editor in

2:53

chief at hello and

2:56

things just started to feel overwhelming

2:58

tell us what was going on yeah

3:01

well thanks for reaching out to me as

3:03

well around that article so I think it

3:05

did obviously strike a chord lots of other

3:07

midlife women and I was

3:09

very careful within that piece as

3:11

well to say I was on

3:13

the brink of burnout because burnout

3:15

does have some distinct characteristics yeah

3:17

but medically kind of you know

3:19

defined and I had some of

3:21

those but not all of them

3:24

and I think burnout is a result

3:26

of chronic stress and of course chronic

3:28

stress is caused when we don't ever

3:30

really have a reach a chance to recharge

3:32

at all in our busy lives and

3:35

I had been in a role which I

3:37

absolutely loved for years and years as editor-in-chief

3:39

at hello I'd been at the magazine for

3:41

almost 16 years lived

3:44

and breathed it loved it had

3:46

my children as well fairly late 38

3:49

and 40 so I've still got children

3:51

that are pretty young you know very just

3:54

the age of 10 yeah and

3:56

the age of 8 and mothering obviously changes

3:58

in that time in some ways I feel

4:00

like I'm just getting started on the parenting

4:02

side. You know, they need me in

4:04

a different way. And I think

4:06

my values had changed as well as

4:09

an individual. I'm 48 now,

4:11

so sort of heading towards 50. And

4:13

it felt as though I was

4:15

just ready for a new chapter. I

4:18

felt spread very thinly within my role.

4:20

The media world has changed enormously in

4:23

the time that I've been editing. Hello.

4:25

You know, we've gone from predominantly being

4:27

a print operation to being a multi-platform

4:30

media empire, you know, that's available

4:32

to our audience 24-7

4:34

on a multitude of platforms.

4:37

And there's that sort of hyper kind

4:39

of being on all the time. So,

4:41

yeah, for the days of waiting for

4:43

a magazine to drop once a week.

4:45

That's it. People want it all an

4:47

insatiable appetite. We do. And you've got

4:49

to be first. And timing is everything.

4:51

So there's that sense of never being

4:53

able to switch off, you know, various

4:55

WhatsApp group Slack channels that we had

4:57

for work. And being on it sort

4:59

of 24-7 and feeling very responsible for

5:01

a team and for, you

5:03

know, making key decisions about our editorial

5:05

direction whenever that was, whether that was

5:08

10 o'clock on a Sunday night, the

5:10

big royal story had broken, or

5:12

when you just put your pen down, you know, at

5:14

some point in the evening, so I put the children's

5:16

bed. So I think I

5:18

was really sort of kind of running

5:20

on the adrenaline of that for quite

5:22

a long time, but thriving in lots

5:24

of ways as well. Everything that I

5:26

wrote about in that Telegraph article is

5:28

caviated with. I know that, you

5:30

know, I'm grateful for many aspects of my

5:33

life, but I think often women, we

5:35

feel that we should be grateful and that

5:37

we then just keep carrying on, you

5:39

know, whereas we're all valid to talk about

5:42

the struggles that we might be having. And

5:44

that's very unique to all of us. So

5:47

the penny dropping moment for me

5:49

really was the morning after a

5:51

very successful event for Hello is

5:53

our Inspiration Awards, which I hosted

5:55

annually, and I'd hosted

5:57

it kind of curated this event. obviously

6:00

alongside the team in-house. And

6:02

I woke up the next morning, I'd had a

6:05

late night, I was in a London hotel room,

6:07

had been there for a couple of nights, had

6:09

missed calls from the boys the night before. Tell

6:11

your boys again. They're nearly 10 and eight now.

6:14

So this was not last October, the one

6:16

before, so October 2022. Like

6:18

eight and six at the time. Yeah, eight and

6:21

six at the time. So I woke up and

6:23

again was straight into a whole other day of

6:25

meetings, but felt behind on my emails, like I

6:27

was constantly trying to catch my tail. And

6:30

it hadn't been enjoyable for quite a long time.

6:32

And I didn't even really have a moment

6:35

to just take in the success of the

6:37

event the night before. And

6:39

I just had this very physical kind

6:41

of reaction of looking at my

6:43

phone, which felt as though it was exploding, that it

6:45

was red hot kind of, you know, an alarm

6:48

was going off from it almost. And

6:50

I just wanted to throw it out the window.

6:53

And I just couldn't stop crying. It was

6:55

like a very physical reaction of just sobbing

6:57

and feeling like I'm just done. You're still

6:59

in the hotel room. I'm still in the

7:01

hotel room this morning. And I just

7:04

can't do this anymore. You know,

7:06

lots of people have said to me, gosh, it

7:08

was a brave sort of decision to make, to

7:10

step down from a job that seemed to have

7:12

it all. But actually this was the culmination of

7:15

probably two years of building up to that point.

7:17

And for many women, there is a moment where

7:19

it just feels like untenable. And

7:21

we should say as well, you were in your mid-40s.

7:25

47, yeah. Which anybody who's

7:27

listened to this podcast will probably know by

7:29

now, man or woman who listens will know

7:31

that that is an age of perimenopause. Exactly.

7:33

So it wasn't in isolation. I think it's

7:36

very easy to go blaming your job being

7:38

the go-to, but I'm very aware that there

7:40

are a whole number of factors at

7:42

play at that time. I was

7:44

also suffering with perimenopause symptoms that

7:46

hadn't been properly diagnosed. And even though

7:48

I'd fronted a campaign on the menopause

7:50

for hello. And actually you and I

7:52

were together on a shoot that we

7:55

did for Clarins to kind

7:57

of promote super-restorative, which is a range they

7:59

brought out in... promotion of menopausal skin.

8:01

And I've also fronted the Menopause

8:03

Workplace Pledge, a campaign for Hello

8:05

and the charity loving women. I

8:08

still didn't, I was still kind

8:10

of coping with brain fog and

8:12

sort of coping with night sweats

8:14

had been quite bad for me.

8:16

Anxiety I

8:18

could never really experience before. And I

8:21

was interviewing you, Gabby, for this campaign.

8:23

And Gabby, you were sat talking to

8:25

me about how these symptoms sort of

8:27

begun at the age of

8:29

47. And I was sort of picking

8:31

them off saying, Oh my God, yes, yes,

8:34

yes. And I remember I spoke to you

8:37

at the end and said, Look, everything you

8:39

have just described, I think home Perry made

8:41

a border on it's like this obvious kind

8:43

of ball hitting you in the face moment

8:45

that, Oh, no, shit, shirt, lot kind of

8:48

thing. And so and then you actually said

8:50

to me, well, maybe you should make it

8:52

a photo with the doctor and look into what

8:54

you can get. And I had been

8:56

before and I had been prescribed antidepressants,

8:59

certainly. And again, I blamed everything on

9:01

my job thinking that was, you know,

9:03

why I was feeling so anxious all

9:05

of the time. And that was a

9:07

bit of it, but it really wasn't

9:09

everything. So I think for midlife

9:11

women, it's almost like this melting pot of

9:14

lots of different things going on at the

9:16

same time, the different challenges that we have

9:18

as mothers and within our family and your

9:20

relationships as well, whether you're in a marriage

9:23

or not, there's, you know, there's all those

9:25

pressures in there and kind of working out

9:27

what is the thing. Yeah. And often there

9:29

isn't one thing. It's actually a little bit

9:31

of everything all coming to a head at

9:33

that time. And I think the own reality,

9:35

which is why you've created this podcast of

9:38

it being the midpoint in life. And I

9:40

think I was also probably thinking,

9:42

what is my next chapter? I felt

9:44

very defined by a role, a working

9:48

life for a long time that I was

9:50

beginning to feel kind of wasn't

9:52

really exactly who I was now as

9:54

an individual. And I think you don't

9:56

really have time to stop and think

9:59

that you were. Yeah, there was no

10:01

time to take any kind of moment out to

10:03

actually put the focus on yourself and think, well,

10:05

if I'm not happy, you know, what am I

10:07

going to do about this? Because we're just on

10:09

this roller coaster and there are lots of balls

10:12

that we can't ever afford to drop. So that

10:14

sort of then kind of

10:17

sparked a whole period of self-awareness

10:19

really and self-discovery. I mean, I

10:21

was unable to actually call the

10:24

doctor myself at that time

10:26

when I was in that hotel room. I phoned

10:28

my husband. I'm very lucky to have a brilliant

10:30

relationship and long-term relationship.

10:32

I've been married for 12 years, a

10:34

very supportive husband and called

10:36

him could barely get a word

10:39

out. And actually he probably wasn't

10:41

really overly surprised because he had

10:43

seen this building as it turned

10:45

out has other members of my

10:48

family and even friendship group. And

10:50

I'd been sort of saying that I was

10:53

unhappy about work situation and what could I

10:55

do about it for so long? And I

10:57

didn't want to be a broken record either.

11:00

You know, I felt like I need to do something,

11:02

but I'm stuck. I'm scared. I don't know how

11:04

to take that first step. So

11:06

my husband actually was very good and said, like, I'm

11:08

going to call the doctor because the first step is

11:10

you just need to rest. I

11:13

spoke to the doctor. It was almost like being a

11:15

child. I'd never been signed off sick from work,

11:17

you know, barely take the day off. Didn't actually

11:20

know how to go about that. So did

11:22

it just from that moment that was that

11:24

was it. You didn't go to the first

11:26

meeting. You didn't answer the fact that

11:28

was the end. Well, that was I couldn't

11:31

actually do it. I did actually that morning

11:33

I was having a meeting first thing that

11:35

morning in the hotel with actually the

11:37

sister of the owner of Hello, who

11:40

I have worked for, you know, very happily

11:42

for all this time. She was over in

11:44

the UK because she attended our awards event

11:46

the day before. And I was

11:48

meant to be meeting her for

11:50

breakfast. And I thought, I just can't

11:53

I look a mess. I

11:55

don't want to go downstairs in the hotel. I'm just going to

11:57

I feel so on the edge. I'm just going to burst into

11:59

tears again. horrible feeling where anything could

12:01

set you off. So actually,

12:04

and then I sort of had a shower and thought

12:06

about it and actually invited her to come up to

12:08

the room because she was only in London for a

12:10

very limited time. And I

12:12

opened the door to the hotel room

12:14

to her and just immediately burst into

12:16

tears. Thought I'd got it together. And

12:19

she's a woman in her fifties, which again shows

12:21

the power of women's support to each other. She

12:23

gave me a huge hug, which obviously made me

12:25

cry even more, and said,

12:28

it's okay, we can figure

12:30

this out. And we sat and

12:32

had a big chat and she

12:34

was absolutely brilliantly supportive. And

12:37

so I was very, very lucky in that I

12:39

did have a supportive employer, because

12:41

it's not, you know, a weakness, but showing

12:43

your vulnerability like that is scary. And you

12:45

do feel like you're failing. And then the

12:48

other half of me thought, God, I'm making

12:50

a big fuss over nothing. But I think

12:52

it was a real moment

12:54

of realization that stress actually lives in

12:56

your body, it lives in your nervous

12:58

system, it affects you physically, if you

13:00

ignore it for long enough, and you

13:03

never give yourself a chance to recharge

13:05

or take stock. So I

13:07

ended up having three weeks off work.

13:10

And in that time, I sort of went

13:12

for lots of walks, did a lot of

13:14

thinking, actually journaling was quite powerful to me.

13:16

And I thought by that, I mean, I

13:18

didn't sort of sit with a big notebook

13:20

by my bed, I journals on my mobile

13:22

phone. And I created a document

13:24

called my future. And in

13:27

that I journaled what I found

13:29

really fulfilling in my life and

13:31

what with things that I could maybe look at losing.

13:33

And I had to be really,

13:35

really honest with myself around my career and

13:37

my job. And some of

13:40

the things that I wrote that weren't fulfilling

13:42

me anymore were quite fundamental to the role

13:44

of an editor in chief of Hello, but

13:46

it was so liberating to admit this to

13:48

myself, and that it was okay. And the

13:51

world didn't end because I thought that. And

13:53

I also didn't want to

13:55

be another statistic of a perimenopausal

13:58

woman who leaves the workplace. potentially

14:00

at the height of her career. The

14:02

stats show that 25% of women

14:05

are suffering with serious

14:07

or menopause symptoms that are

14:09

having an impact on their ability to go

14:11

about their daily life. 25%

14:13

of those are leaving the workforce. And

14:17

so we're losing this huge amount of

14:19

talent, perhaps at the peak of their

14:22

careers in leadership roles, not

14:24

to be seen again. And I really felt like I

14:26

didn't want to be another one of those statistics, but

14:28

I needed to be doing something that genuinely

14:31

was fulfilling me and hit all of

14:33

my values at this stage of my

14:35

life. And one of those things

14:37

was to learn again. I think I felt that I'd

14:39

been doing the same thing for so long that

14:41

I could sort of do it, but it

14:43

wasn't fulfilling me and it was exhausting me.

14:46

So I actually signed up to do a

14:48

coaching course and I did some retraining that

14:50

was just half a day every

14:52

week for six months. It took

14:55

to do the whole course and

14:57

that included training sessions

14:59

with co-tees. And I

15:01

learned so much about myself during that

15:03

process. And my happiness began

15:05

to kind of cut back. You've got

15:08

all of this feeling. Just the learning

15:10

again, being in a group of complete

15:12

strangers, nobody cared what your role

15:14

was in the media or anything. It

15:16

was all about learning something new

15:18

together. And the self-awareness was huge

15:21

because in coaching, you really dig

15:23

into your values, your strengths, your

15:25

needs. Because that's interesting what you say there

15:27

about your role in the media. And it

15:29

doesn't matter what you do, whether it's a

15:31

high profile job or not, you kind of

15:33

almost have subliminally decided that people must think

15:35

this about the thing that you do. And

15:38

it looks like it's a certain way and

15:40

your lifestyle is a certain way. But actually,

15:42

when you meet a group of strangers, you've

15:44

got no idea what you do. You're

15:46

going back to your authentic self. That's it.

15:49

And the rosy that you probably hadn't

15:51

met for quite a while, you hadn't

15:54

talked to. Well, the rosy that just

15:56

hadn't stopped, basically. And if you'd looked

15:58

at my Instagram, you would have seen this. sort of

16:00

person that looked like they were nailing every

16:02

aspect of their life. And that's again, partly

16:04

why I wanted to write that piece in

16:06

the Telegraph. So I thought it's really important

16:08

to remind people that that is never, ever

16:11

a full story. See, I'm just as

16:13

an aside, it's just like a little break. I have this

16:15

weird kind of relationship with the Instagram Perfect

16:17

Life because there's a bit of me that goes,

16:19

well, yeah, but people aren't going to post pictures

16:21

of themselves, you know, cutting their toenails and plucking

16:23

their dark hairs, are they? Although I did see

16:25

somebody plucking their chin hair on the day talking

16:27

about midlife. How refreshing. I'm

16:30

not sure I want to follow an account where somebody's, you know, overwhelmed

16:32

by the dishes, you know what I mean? But

16:34

at the same time, when you flick through the people

16:36

that you follow, it is, you know, a

16:38

procession of great images of happiness and

16:40

joy. And you know, in the job that

16:42

you were doing, it's I think of Hello,

16:44

and I think of the role that you

16:47

did. It's like colour, life, you know, vibrancy.

16:49

And it was. And there are so many

16:51

opportunities for that. I mean, I was never

16:53

short of content, you know, every day. There

16:55

was like things happening, you know. But actually,

16:57

the real me was then running for the

16:59

train, you know, trying to get home for the kids.

17:01

Yeah, exactly. I'm feeling like I'm not properly

17:04

present and I'm still half got one eye

17:06

on a half written email that I've done.

17:08

If I do make it to school pickup

17:10

or and I don't want to be that

17:12

person, you know, I felt desperately unhappy with

17:14

myself for being like that. But trapped, I

17:17

just didn't know how on earth do I

17:19

take the first step to get out of

17:21

this? And I think even when

17:23

I was having those, you know, weeks of

17:25

sort of sobbing, which I think was hormonal

17:27

as well, because, you know, I'm now on

17:29

HRT and I've got a sort of better

17:32

understanding of what's happening, you know, to

17:34

my own body. Let's go back to

17:36

time wise. Yeah. Because I think people are listening to this

17:38

who start to kind of recognise some of these feelings,

17:41

will wonder how long it took. So for

17:43

three weeks off, you go back to the

17:45

train shoes? No. So basically, after the three

17:47

weeks off, I had I went over to

17:49

see my boss in Madrid, had a lot

17:51

of thoughts around what do I

17:53

want to do, realised that my

17:55

role had changed a great deal

17:58

within the company and I was working on lots of. different

18:00

projects for the brand

18:02

and that what I really loved and

18:04

I'd written down in my future notes

18:07

was the stuff about inspiring other people

18:09

with using our platforms for good and

18:11

actually being a force for good within

18:13

the media and creating stories that our

18:15

audience which is a lot of midlife

18:17

women would really be able to relate

18:19

to and support them and

18:22

that you know things like the Clarins

18:24

campaign we did around menopause was perfect

18:26

example of that. Absolutely loved all of

18:28

that but the responsibility of putting a

18:30

magazine to bed every Friday night being

18:32

on top of royal news breaking stories

18:34

as another layer to what I was

18:36

doing was not feeding

18:39

me anymore. It was a

18:41

huge few weeks ago watching something at Westminster

18:43

Abbey so you know that's it and the

18:45

Queen had died you know as well the

18:47

month before I had this kind of moment

18:50

so I effectively worked every weekend as well

18:52

and been very involved with that and actually

18:54

when the Queen died I did have this

18:57

feeling of I feel like I'm done here

18:59

too but it's been a

19:01

really you know a whole a huge

19:03

chapter but I've probably done my

19:05

bit and I think you know

19:08

magazine brands as well it's good to refresh

19:10

and I did think when is this gonna

19:12

how's this gonna end how am I gonna

19:14

move on so in in knowing

19:17

what I felt really passionately about I

19:19

could then put a business proposal

19:21

together for my boss and as I said before

19:23

I didn't want to be a stat that just

19:25

disappeared from the workforce I felt really you know

19:28

keenly about that and needed to earn money to

19:30

pay the mortgage and everything else so

19:32

I put together a proposal and I

19:34

initially went back three days a week

19:37

because Hello's created brand ambassador focusing on

19:39

those projects and

19:41

I signed up to do this coaching course which I

19:43

then started at the beginning of last year so yeah

19:46

a few months after I'd had the time of work and

19:49

it was during the coaching course that I

19:51

found I really love this I'm

19:53

really enjoying these conversations and actually all

19:55

of that experience that I've had in

19:57

a management role and in the media

19:59

it's so useful to what I

20:01

do next. I think a lot of

20:03

women often think, but what would I

20:05

do next? Or maybe they've had time

20:07

out for raising a family and what

20:09

are my skills? What can I do?

20:12

I think doing a course like that

20:14

really built up my confidence and made

20:16

me see that actually I had experience.

20:18

Yeah, we've reached this age in midlife,

20:20

whether you've been raising a family or you've

20:23

been in the workforce, there are incredible skills

20:25

there that are useful to other people. So

20:28

in doing that I sort of felt, I

20:30

think this is what I really would like to do and I

20:33

need to make this move because I

20:35

just felt I want to enter my

20:37

50s on my terms and

20:40

I wanted a bit more autonomy. I think you

20:42

reach an age as well where you're not prepared

20:45

to just go along with what somebody else wants

20:47

you to do. I don't want to

20:49

have to get somebody's approval if I want a day

20:51

off work or an extra week because I want to

20:53

do something with my family. I just need

20:55

to have control over my own life. That

20:57

was really important. So I went

21:00

back three days initially and then

21:02

after the summer of end

21:05

of last year, I began to feel like I

21:07

think I'm ready. It's almost like a balancing scale.

21:09

I started to do more stuff on my own.

21:11

I'm also an author so I'd written books. I

21:14

was meant to be completing a novel that

21:16

I'm working on now, my fourth novel, but I never

21:18

had it still time to do it or head to

21:21

base and that's what I really want to do and

21:23

I love. So the gales

21:26

were starting to tip more into, look,

21:28

I'm kind of doing this stuff on

21:30

my own. It's actually not

21:33

going to be so scary. Say goodbye

21:35

to hello. Yeah, letting go of that

21:37

crutch. So I

21:39

had another chat with my boss and actually he

21:41

came back suggesting maybe I be editor at large.

21:44

So I'm now working a day or

21:46

week for hello for the next year whilst they

21:49

get their

21:52

plans in place. Yeah, and me too.

21:54

And it feels like a very amicable

21:56

grown up way of ending one chat.

21:59

and starting a new one. I did

22:01

laugh with my boss and said that

22:03

we could think of it perhaps as

22:05

our conscious uncoupling, that term

22:08

that Gweny Paltrow used when she and Chris

22:10

Martin split because I think actually it's a

22:12

very good phrase. I know it got ridiculed at

22:14

the time. I don't know why really because it

22:17

is a conscious uncoupling and

22:19

that's okay and it's all right to admit that

22:21

I've changed as a person in the time that

22:23

I've been working there but I want to look

22:26

back on it as a really happy time, not

22:28

a horrible one because of the way it ends

22:31

and endings are very difficult to

22:33

navigate often. Yeah, so what you're

22:35

doing, everybody will feel good and

22:37

positive about the relationship when eventually

22:39

you are fully immersed in the things that

22:41

you really want to do and at the

22:44

moment that is a range of things. You

22:46

have your podcasts and obviously you say you're

22:48

an author, you've got the date with hello

22:50

as well. Are you now, do you think as well,

22:52

getting the other things in life that you really wanted

22:54

to have time for with regard to

22:57

your family and your own personal

22:59

time, your hobbies and… Yeah,

23:01

well obviously boundaries are a big thing. I

23:03

mean I'm sure you could do a whole

23:05

episode of boundaries and they are still a

23:08

work in progress because I am a very driven

23:10

person. I like being busy. That is sort

23:12

of part of my personality but I'm having

23:14

to work daily to keep those

23:16

boundaries in place because I don't want to now

23:19

suddenly fill up my life so that it's going

23:21

at 200 miles an hour again. But

23:23

already I know that my stress levels have

23:25

gone right down because I'm only doing what

23:28

I love and I go

23:30

back to that note on my phone that

23:32

I have there permanently to just check in

23:34

if I ever feel like is this opportunity

23:36

really aligned with what I really want to

23:38

do for this next chapter and

23:41

I find it much easier now to

23:43

say no to things. I always think

23:45

that a quick no is always better

23:47

than a sort of tentative yes. Because

23:50

it's gone then, isn't it? I find that if

23:52

you say no I'm sorry I'm doing something I

23:55

can't do that and actually rather than

23:58

thinking can I move that thing so I

24:00

can fit that thing. thing in. No, it's

24:02

gone then. Yeah, it's gone and you've given

24:04

clarity to the other person as well. It's

24:06

kind of best all round, I think. And

24:08

also I'm much more aware of what I

24:10

want this next chapter to be and I'm

24:12

not going to compromise that because I know

24:14

it will affect my physical health if

24:17

I don't listen. So yeah,

24:19

so boundaries still a work in progress, but

24:21

I'm around for the kids so much more,

24:23

which brings me so much joy. I'm properly

24:25

present with them. I'm not rushing in and

24:28

they sense that from you, you know.

24:30

Have you noticed them change? Well,

24:32

I know they cheered actually when

24:34

I said what I was thinking

24:37

with regards to hello. Yeah, they

24:39

both cheered. So and that

24:41

sort of said everything to me. Yeah. The other

24:44

thing that I realised is that your job won't

24:46

thank you at the end of the day, but

24:48

your family will, which

24:50

was a really big one. The other

24:52

thing that you touched on in your

24:54

article is that we are part of a

24:56

generation and perhaps a generation ahead of us

24:58

as well. We're part of that movement of

25:00

you can have it all and

25:03

the kind of feelings of guilt. Well, if

25:05

I can't have it all, then how, you

25:07

know, what was all that for? Why did

25:09

I sacrifice or

25:12

why did I do all those things? And I

25:14

think it's that balancing act that our

25:16

generation, I think, probably

25:19

people a little bit older and maybe people a

25:21

little bit younger as well have had to kind

25:23

of work their way through where I think the

25:25

younger generation, certainly from what I

25:27

read, the millennials are going, no, hang

25:30

on a second. I'm not doing that.

25:32

I think they're much more aware of

25:34

self-care as well, self-compassion and giving them

25:36

and their mental health. You know, again,

25:38

we didn't even consider that when we

25:40

started off in the world of work

25:42

would be impact that that could have

25:44

on us. So yeah, I think definitely

25:46

that the idea of you can have

25:48

it all just, you

25:51

can't. I mean, what does that even mean

25:53

anyway? And also success as well. I did

25:55

a lot of thinking around what does success

25:57

mean to me? And what's the best way to do it?

26:00

One stage in my life, it did mean working

26:02

my way up to editor and earning a certain

26:04

amount. Well, now my success

26:06

has completely died into my happiness and

26:08

being around for the people that care

26:10

about me and doing things that are

26:12

authentically right for me. But

26:14

until you really get to know yourself and

26:16

ask yourself a difficult question. Well, you're almost

26:19

judging your own success against what

26:21

you think the perceived kind of value is

26:23

in society, aren't you, rather than actually asking

26:25

yourself? That's always going to be unfulfilling. And

26:28

now actually it doesn't really matter what anyone

26:30

else thinks, because I'm really happy in my

26:32

own little world. There's always going to be

26:34

somebody who's got more, who's doing more, who's

26:37

got, you know, so if that's the way

26:39

you judge your life, you're never ever going

26:41

to get a point that that makes you

26:43

happy. You're not. Yeah. And also that realisation

26:46

that change is possible. And I know that

26:48

any changes we make have to be deeply

26:50

rooted in reality because, you know, we are in a

26:52

cost of living crisis and it's really hard for a

26:55

lot of people. So I'm not suggesting we all just

26:57

give up the jobs that we hate. You know, it

26:59

has to be a long process. And for me, it

27:01

was two years. And then hitting

27:03

that breaking point, actually, you know, I now

27:06

and I refer to it in that piece

27:08

is not a breakdown, but a breakthrough, because

27:10

it actually gave me a way to sort

27:12

of navigate it. But ideally, you wouldn't reach

27:15

that point where you can't stop sobbing or

27:17

hold a conversation. But I'm sure you released

27:19

a lot. I did. I

27:21

mean, it was because even going for

27:23

these walks and I listened to various

27:26

podcasts, yours included and did a lot

27:28

of walking and I got outside and

27:30

sometimes with nothing, you know, just letting

27:32

those thoughts come. And it's amazing what

27:34

comes to you when you actually have

27:37

that space. And that feels like a

27:39

luxury in today's world. You know, it's

27:41

very, very hard to ever get time

27:43

to focus just on you. Did you

27:45

have any formal kind of therapies? No,

27:48

I didn't. I had well, I had

27:50

coaching, actually. So I guess that is a

27:52

form of therapy. I didn't go

27:54

and speak to a therapist. I spoke to my doctor

27:57

and I am very lucky in that, as I

27:59

mentioned, before I have a brilliant relationship with

28:01

my husband, who was great, he's a very

28:04

emotionally in touch man. And so I had

28:06

lots of conversations with him and I shared

28:08

with my friends, I actually went down to

28:10

Cornwall with a group of girlfriends, the weekend

28:12

after I'd had that sort of breakdown, it'd

28:15

been a diary for a long time. And

28:17

half of me thought I can't go. And

28:20

again, when my friend met us at

28:22

the airport, we flew down to Newquay,

28:24

I just burst into tears on her

28:26

immediately and said, look, don't be one

28:28

on how I am. But

28:30

it was amazing, we went swimming in the sea

28:32

and we kind of did all these nourishing things.

28:36

And that was so helpful to share

28:38

it and everybody had some way of

28:40

relating to my story. Have

29:02

you ever Googled your own name? Prepare

29:04

for a shock because your personal info,

29:06

including addresses and phone numbers, is all

29:09

out there. It's all harvested by data

29:11

brokers and sold legally. Aura is

29:13

a personal digital security service that

29:15

scans the internet for your sensitive

29:18

information and provides a full suite

29:20

of privacy-enhancing tools. For a limited

29:22

time, Aura is offering listeners a

29:25

14-day free trial at aura.com.safety. That's

29:27

aura.com/safety to learn more and activate

29:29

the 14-day trial period. Well,

29:48

we are going to speak to our

29:51

expert today who is immersed in

29:53

the area of talking

29:55

therapies. She is

29:57

Isabel Williams and I'm delighted to

29:59

introduce you. you to. Isabel

30:01

and I go back a long

30:03

way and in her previous incarnation

30:06

she was a brilliant producer

30:08

of radio and television. In fact the last

30:10

thing we worked on was a documentary called

30:12

One Day in May. I think that was the

30:14

last thing we worked on Isabel. I think it

30:16

was, yes. I think that was back in 2015

30:18

so it was a little while ago now. Yeah,

30:21

that was the story of the

30:23

Bradford fire and survivors and families

30:25

we interviewed who had

30:27

experienced the horrors of that day. But

30:30

you've done all kinds, I mean that makes it sound like

30:32

you only did serious work. We did a lot of fun

30:34

things together Isabel didn't we? A

30:36

lot of fun things, yes we did. But now I

30:38

meet Isabel Williams, psychotherapist. So

30:41

that is a very big pivot

30:43

in midlife, a big career change

30:45

in midlife. So before we get into talking

30:47

therapist, do you want to tell us a

30:50

little bit about how you came to make

30:52

that switch of career? I

30:54

really identified with so much Rosie said

30:56

there. This is about feeling that we

30:58

should be grateful and just carry on.

31:00

That really resonated with me, this idea

31:03

that this is your life, this is

31:05

your job. I did love what

31:07

I did, I did love it. And there was a long

31:09

long dovetail between the two careers because

31:12

training as a psychotherapist it took me

31:14

five and a half years to do that.

31:17

So there was a massive sort of dovetail

31:19

between the two careers. But one

31:21

of the catalysts for it was making

31:23

that film actually Gabby that one day

31:25

in May film because as

31:27

part of it as you well know we

31:30

talked to a lot of survivors of the

31:32

fire. 56 people died

31:35

in that terrible fire back in 1985 which if nobody

31:37

knows about it

31:40

it was one of the worst disasters in the football

31:42

ground ever. And in the face

31:45

of about four minutes the entire

31:47

stand which was full of people burned to

31:50

the ground. It was the most astonishingly awful

31:52

disaster. But the people of Bradford don't

31:54

talk about it very much and

31:57

they keep themselves to themselves and you were

31:59

there. weren't you Gabby? You were a

32:02

young child in that sound and

32:04

very lucky to have survived you

32:06

and your family. And when

32:08

we made that film, I particularly remember

32:11

sitting with a gentleman

32:13

who was, I think in his sixties,

32:15

he had never spoken to anybody, anybody

32:18

at all about what had happened to

32:20

him and sat down and interviewed him. And

32:23

I can remember that I asked him

32:25

one question, one question and he spoke

32:27

for 42 minutes without stopping.

32:29

This is a man who never spoken

32:31

publicly or even to his

32:34

family really about what had happened that day.

32:36

And what had happened is that he'd lost

32:38

his father, he was in the stand with

32:40

his father. He went, ran out of the

32:42

stand to get some help and

32:45

he turned back and his father had

32:47

died in the stand. And this

32:50

made me think, oh my goodness, there's, there's

32:52

a lot of pain out there, isn't there?

32:54

There's a lot of pain. There's a lot

32:56

of untold, unspoken pain. And I thought, hmm,

32:59

I did this, you know, I did this

33:01

interviewing thing. Maybe I could be a psychotherapist

33:04

and it's something that occurred to me years before,

33:06

but I thought, no, not while my kids are,

33:08

not while my kids are growing up, it's something for, for when

33:10

I'm older. And I guess I was, what,

33:13

I was 50 in, in 2015, I'm now 50 and 59 in a couple of

33:18

weeks. And I

33:20

thought, oh, I could really do this. So I went

33:22

and did an introductory course in

33:24

psychotherapy, a sort of introduction

33:27

to the idea notion of becoming a

33:29

psychodynamic psychotherapist. And

33:32

I did this for six months. And very,

33:34

very quickly realized that I had absolutely no

33:37

idea what a psychotherapist did, no

33:39

idea whatsoever that I needed to, to

33:42

really think about if I wanted

33:44

to go through the whole training,

33:46

which is four years, four years to

33:48

become a psychotherapist. And

33:50

I, I decided I was going

33:53

to do it. I had to

33:55

go and try and get therapy myself

33:57

because I'd never had therapy. I'd never

33:59

gone through psychotherapy myself. And

34:01

I think that one of the one

34:04

of the key things was, and

34:06

I look back on this now into in one of

34:08

two ways, is that I

34:10

was actually talking to a friend of a friend of

34:12

mine about this the other day, I was who's also

34:15

a psychotherapist. And I said, you

34:17

know, I don't think I ever thought that

34:20

I needed therapy until

34:22

I started training to become a psychotherapist.

34:25

And it's a course requirement, of

34:27

course, to have weekly twice

34:29

weekly psychotherapy for throughout

34:31

your entire training. And

34:33

I said to her, and I

34:35

think I was tremendously arrogant. I said to

34:37

think that I didn't need it. Because

34:39

it became very apparent very quickly,

34:42

that I really did need to

34:44

talk to somebody I've never talked

34:46

to anybody about anything about

34:48

my life about my you know, all the

34:50

all the issues that that I realized I

34:52

have been dealing with for all of my

34:54

life. And my friend

34:56

said, Well, there's another way of looking at

34:59

there. There's a kind of feminist way of

35:01

looking at it, about reframing it. And it's

35:03

that actually, you didn't think you deserved it.

35:05

You didn't think you deserved

35:07

therapy. And I think it's really comes

35:09

back to what you said earlier, Rosie,

35:11

about about this idea

35:13

that we should just be grateful and carry on,

35:16

that this is how life is, that

35:18

we always have to put on a brave face, we

35:20

always have to be good at everything, be

35:22

there for our kids, be there for our

35:24

partners, be there for work. And I mean,

35:27

goodness me, your job sounds sounded like

35:29

it was crazy. I was

35:31

thinking about you when the queen died, sort of sitting

35:33

there thinking, I think, you know, how am I going

35:35

to do this? So, and there's

35:38

all also this business about being very

35:40

feeling very defined by a role. And

35:42

after I worked with you on that

35:44

film, Gabby, I did a couple more

35:47

films for Beatty Sport.

35:49

And I actually went back into

35:51

series producing for Telly.

35:53

And I remember I got to the

35:56

point in one particular project where I

35:58

walked off it because I thought

36:00

I can't cope with this. I was travelling backwards

36:02

and forwards to London, no, and I

36:04

thought I am the oldest swinger

36:07

in town. I really am. All these young

36:09

people I was working with and

36:11

however much experience you feel you have, however

36:14

much you feel you still have to offer

36:16

the role, you still have to

36:18

feel comfortable in that. You still have to

36:20

be able to love yourself

36:23

in that situation. And the

36:25

other thing that you mentioned also Rosie, which

36:28

really resonated with me, boundaries.

36:31

I'm sorry Gabby, but in television and

36:33

radio there are no boundaries. You

36:36

will always be called at two o'clock in the

36:38

morning or seven o'clock in the

36:40

morning or message. I'm sure loads of people

36:42

in other industries will really identify with this.

36:45

And I thought I need to find something

36:47

different to do, something that feels, I

36:50

used to joke with a friend of mine that it

36:52

felt dignified. You know, I want to find

36:54

something dignified to do and it's like it's already seemed like

36:56

a kind of dignified thing to do. I

36:58

have to say looking back on all of that now that

37:01

I just love it. I love the work

37:03

and it has nothing to do with it

37:05

being dignified and it has nothing to do

37:08

with thinking I can extract wonderful interviews

37:10

out of people. And it has nothing,

37:13

you know, really what

37:15

it is all about is about

37:17

relationships and understanding how

37:20

I relate to people. By the way, I

37:22

still have therapy every week. I don't think

37:24

I could cope without it now because I

37:27

rely on it so much, but it's

37:29

also about, it's

37:31

the privilege and the pleasure of

37:34

getting to know people and getting

37:36

to know people. And I'm sure you

37:38

can relate to this as a coach, Rosie,

37:40

getting to know people in a

37:42

way that strips away all

37:45

of that life that they built up around

37:48

them, that kind of crust that's

37:50

on us all from our

37:52

lives and our people's, other people's expectations of

37:54

us, and trying to kind of

37:57

get underneath that and

37:59

understand. What they

38:01

really might need to talk

38:03

about or need to share or might need

38:05

you to know. And I'm

38:07

sure your patients are very range

38:10

in age and obviously it's not just

38:13

a mid-life thing, Isabel, that you deal with. I

38:15

wanted to talk to you though specifically about

38:17

whether or not you find that older

38:19

people have got a reticence

38:21

and a reluctance to take on board therapy.

38:24

Do they think it's too late? Do

38:26

they think, oh well I've coped until now so

38:28

talking to somebody's not going to help? I

38:32

think that's very true. Interestingly,

38:35

Carl Jung thought

38:37

that it didn't matter how old you were, you could still

38:39

benefit from therapy. Freud thought the

38:41

opposite. You thought that if

38:44

you're over 40 you shouldn't bother. Yes,

38:47

I tend towards, I'm not a Jungian, but

38:49

I tend towards his view of things in

38:52

that it really doesn't matter. You're never

38:54

too old to find some space. Finding

38:57

some space is terribly

38:59

hard, it's particularly hard for women. And as

39:01

you get older, this feeling of not

39:05

deserving, especially

39:07

in generations, a generation older

39:10

than me, say 15, 20 years older than me, is

39:14

very reluctant to take up any space at

39:16

all. And I've

39:19

had some very, very courageous people

39:21

come to me in their 60s and 70s,

39:25

and I don't think I've had a patient over 80 yet, but

39:28

it takes an enormous amount of courage.

39:31

And many of them have been through a life change.

39:34

So I had one patient

39:36

who is no longer alive, but she

39:38

came after her daughter died. So

39:41

she had this life change and she felt unmoored

39:45

by it. Everything that she had held

39:47

dear and taken for

39:49

granted just sort of fell away. And

39:51

I think it was an enormous privilege to

39:53

work with her. And she was

39:56

able to take quite a lot, really, just

39:58

from the experience of having somebody their

40:00

witness to what an extraordinary life she

40:02

had led. She was

40:04

in the care of medical professionals for

40:07

whom she was just another old lady. She

40:10

had very poor health and we actually met on

40:12

Zoom because she wasn't able to get up

40:16

into my consulting room. She had to do it

40:18

at home. And I

40:20

felt very honored and privileged

40:22

to know her for the last sort

40:24

of year of her life. I

40:27

feel tremendously fascinated

40:30

by the idea that you can, it's

40:33

just never too late. It's never

40:35

too late to find

40:37

some joy in having a

40:39

relationship with somebody who will just be there

40:41

for you and just listen to you and

40:44

make space for you. And

40:47

that is something that a lot of people go

40:49

through their entire lives not

40:52

experiencing. Without judgment, you know,

40:54

because you might have people in your life

40:56

who you think you can talk to and a

40:58

friend or, but obviously there's not that

41:00

sense of them being no judgment,

41:03

is there? Because people always feel they've got to

41:05

give an answer. Don't they? They've got

41:07

to give a solution if you're somebody that's a

41:09

problem solver or somebody who wants to

41:11

make everything okay. So can you explain

41:13

what a psychotherapist does that is different then

41:15

to a great friend? Yes,

41:18

the nonjudgmental side of things is 100%. You

41:21

have to, I mean, nobody can be 100% nonjudgmental.

41:24

We have our life.

41:27

Our biases, our preconceptions.

41:30

But as a psychotherapist, you're taught to be

41:32

very alive to your own, to what's

41:34

going on for you when you're sitting with a

41:36

patient. So there's

41:39

the sort of ability to,

41:41

our training trains us to be kind of

41:44

alive to our own what's

41:46

going on for us in the sessions so that we

41:48

can kind of filter out and think about what might

41:50

be going for us, what might be going on for

41:53

the other person. As

41:55

a psychodynamic psychotherapist, which is a

41:57

very rather peculiarly British form of

41:59

psychotherapy. It's

42:02

based on unconscious processes. We work

42:04

a lot with unconscious processes. And

42:06

it's to do with, if you

42:08

like, relationships from a very young

42:10

age that have these

42:12

reverberations through our lives. So we'll

42:15

find ourselves pairing up

42:17

with partners who recreate some

42:20

dysfunctional relationship that we had with

42:23

the parents. It's

42:25

astonishing how far

42:27

this reverberates down people's eyes. The

42:30

psychotherapy enables, in a sense,

42:33

it makes some space for one to

42:35

think about, for the patient to think

42:37

about these things with another mind in

42:39

the room. It's as if we're

42:41

creating a liminal space between us in

42:44

which we can both think. It's

42:46

like an auxiliary mind, if you like. Yeah.

42:50

Isabel, it's been really great to see

42:52

you again and to hear what you're

42:54

doing. And how psychotherapy works, and also

42:56

I think the important takeaway there is

42:58

that it's never too late because a

43:01

lot of people compartmentalize the hurt

43:03

and they compartmentalize those

43:05

relationships that may have predicated behaviors that

43:07

they keep on repeating. And as you

43:09

say, to even just have some

43:12

peace towards the end of your life is a great

43:14

thing. I say just, that's a great thing, isn't

43:17

it? So thank you for explaining that. And

43:20

congratulations on an excellent midlife pivot.

43:22

Thank you very much. So

43:26

that was Isabel. I feel like

43:28

I need a psych therapist now. Definitely.

43:30

Somebody just like her, in fact. Well,

43:32

it is, I think, that important difference,

43:35

isn't it, between somebody who you can... I

43:37

mean, both, I think, are very blessed to

43:39

have husbands who we communicate with a lot

43:41

and listen and have ideas.

43:44

But they know us really well. Yeah.

43:46

Sometimes there is... That lack of judgment

43:48

is a big thing, isn't it? Yeah.

43:50

And I've had, you know, I have been

43:52

through various talking therapies over the years and

43:54

it is a very different space. Yeah. And

43:56

the last time I did it was to

43:58

do with something that happened. to my dad

44:01

and I thought, oh, I don't need to

44:03

do this. But the guy who'd been helping

44:05

my dad said, we'd like you to have

44:07

some, you know, we're going to offer you

44:09

some therapy. And I just found myself only

44:11

six sessions, but the first three, I just

44:14

couldn't believe the emotion that was coming out. And

44:16

I'd gone there going, oh, this, I'll do one,

44:18

you know, it'll be all right. So

44:21

it is a very different space. And

44:23

that is so healthy, isn't it? Having

44:25

the ability to get all

44:27

of that out. Because we all know there's

44:29

so many voices in our own heads, you

44:31

know, that can often sabotage our thoughts as

44:33

well, you know, so to be able to

44:35

get those out in a safe space, somebody

44:38

that's not judging you. I

44:40

definitely am open to therapy and it

44:42

is something I've considered probably will do

44:44

at some point, I think, because it

44:46

is very different to coaching. Coaching

44:48

is more about a growth mindset and about what

44:51

you're going to do next. Whereas

44:53

obviously, lots of people have therapy

44:55

in tandem with coaching because therapy

44:57

looks back. And I think

44:59

you need to understand that part of your own

45:01

story to enable you to move forward.

45:04

Coaching is much more practical about, you know, what

45:06

you're going to do next. And you're still coaching?

45:08

I am. Yeah, I've got a few coaching clients.

45:11

I think it won't be something that I spend

45:13

all of my time doing that. But I've

45:16

learned so much. It's definitely I want to

45:18

keep up that experience. And I'm going to

45:20

further my training and coaching next year. So

45:23

I need to focus on getting my novel

45:25

finished this year. And then I'm going to

45:27

perhaps go back to the more training. What's

45:29

the novel about? So the novel is the

45:31

third book in the series of stylists that

45:33

I write. Oh, yeah. It's completely

45:35

different. I mean, again, actually, that's a sort

45:37

of form of therapy for me. My writing

45:39

and writing is quite a therapeutic process. And

45:42

actually, the piece that I wrote for The

45:44

Telegraph was therapy for me to be able

45:46

to write it. So I feel very lucky

45:48

as a writer to have that extra tool

45:50

as a way of processing the world. As you mentioned

45:52

earlier, journaling for people who feel they can't,

45:54

you know, oh, I'm not a writer, but

45:56

actually anybody can journal. Yeah. And

45:58

it could just be notes, as I say on your phone. And often what

46:00

puts people off is this thought of, I've got to

46:02

journal last thing at night and first thing in the

46:05

morning and I can't build that into my day and

46:07

it doesn't feel authentic to me to do it like

46:09

that. But actually it could just be a note form

46:11

on your phone. And so yeah,

46:13

but my novel writing, it's a romantic

46:16

comedy sort of women's contemporary fiction. It's

46:18

about a girl called Amber Green who

46:20

is a stylist. So it's set in

46:23

the fashion world. So it's very much

46:25

a world that I'm familiar with through

46:27

all of my experience at Hello Again.

46:30

All of that experience is never wasted. And

46:33

I'm really enjoying writing it. Yeah, in this

46:35

book. So anybody who's listening hasn't, is

46:37

waiting for the third, obviously it'll be coming soon. But if

46:39

you haven't read it, go and read books

46:42

one and two. So the three books. Yeah. It

46:45

will be complete then. Yeah. And

46:48

I always felt there were three books. Death

46:50

by Kashmir for Amber. Yeah. I know,

46:52

exactly. There's a whole load of drama

46:54

over more dresses. It's

46:56

about being under the influence, this one, I'm

46:59

calling it the stylist under the influence because

47:01

it's about the influencer world. And actually fashion's

47:03

pretty much gone full circle in the time

47:05

that I've been writing the books. Because

47:08

when I wrote the first book, which was

47:10

set during awards season, one award season between

47:12

Los Angeles and London, it

47:14

was all about dressing to

47:16

kill on the red carpet

47:18

and smoke and mirrors and

47:21

high glamour and looking absolutely,

47:23

untouchably incredible and perfect. Yeah,

47:25

and now we've come full

47:27

cycle. Well, actually the role of the

47:29

stylist and Amber is actually a sort

47:31

of therapist, stroke stylist because she gets

47:34

very involved with her client's lives. And

47:36

in order to make them shine on the

47:38

red carpet or going about their lives,

47:41

they've got to really understand who

47:43

they are inside. So it's almost

47:45

now about drawing out the authentic

47:47

personality of the star that she's

47:49

working with so that they can

47:51

radiate and be successful in their

47:53

professional life. Do you miss any

47:55

of that kind of overt glamour

47:57

of, you know, and you still... dipped

48:00

in the water and you're very glamorous woman

48:02

your life still looks incredibly exciting and glamorous

48:04

but that was a different level I imagine

48:06

when you're yeah it was Joan Collins

48:08

one day and yeah what's you at the

48:11

next well I've made so many good friends

48:13

I don't know why I do those two but

48:15

that is a good to pick yeah as Jonah

48:17

I've become very good friends with and we go

48:19

out for our lunches and it's really lovely and

48:22

actually I'd learn so much from her every time

48:24

I meet her give us a piece of Joan

48:26

Collins wisdom well do you know what when I

48:28

was telling her that I was thinking about all

48:30

of this with my career she it then instigated

48:33

a really interesting conversation between us where she told

48:35

me that she got the role of Alexis Carrington

48:37

when she was 47 so she

48:40

had a midlife moment you

48:42

need to have her on the podcast

48:44

yeah yeah and she actually that then

48:47

became the role that defined her career

48:49

because everybody first and foremost thinks of

48:51

Alexis when you think of Joan Collins

48:54

and so she had a midlife moment or I've heard

48:56

her talk about this a little bit she wasn't kind

48:58

of you know on her a game at that point

49:00

in terms of care she wasn't in everybody's no mindset

49:03

so she could have just kind of a career fizzled

49:06

out it could have done yeah and

49:08

that was a really career defining time

49:10

and so I found that really fascinating

49:13

and she's somebody that's always refused though

49:15

to be defined by age she defies

49:17

you know age she's ageless and she's

49:20

very you know she's the person that

49:22

in hello we would never write her

49:24

age because she hates that and

49:26

I'm full respect to her and I've always

49:28

respected that and would you know uphold her

49:31

wish so I think that's

49:33

really fantastic we do have this I've noticed

49:35

with one of my very good friends who's

49:37

a bit younger than me spent a bit

49:39

of time with her recently and she's

49:41

very obsessed with I think because she's getting towards

49:43

50 whenever we talk how

49:45

old is she yeah how old is she

49:47

and she'll show me a picture of her

49:49

how old is she and I think there

49:52

is that comparison thing isn't that great to

49:54

have inspiration with like you and you know

49:56

so I'm actually feel so excited about turning

49:58

50 now and Kirsty Gallagher who is a

50:00

mutual friend of both of us. She and I are the

50:02

same age and we've all, well she's a bit younger

50:04

actually. I pretend I'm the same age, she's six

50:06

months younger. We're turning 48

50:08

and then it will be 49. And

50:12

now I'm actually feeling like I am looking

50:14

forward to my fifties now because I have

50:16

made that decision that this is gonna be

50:18

the new chapter. It feels

50:20

like the beginning of something. I love that

50:22

term, the second spring, that is often

50:24

used to describe the menopause

50:26

time, that

50:29

it feels like a second spring, that I'm

50:31

actually only just getting started on this. That

50:34

feels like a really good place for us to

50:36

finish our chat. I mean, I'd love to just gossip

50:38

a little bit about all the secrets

50:40

you must have about. Well, you have to

50:42

read the next book because obviously it was

50:45

all fiction. It is all fiction, I assure

50:47

you. I could help but sort of be

50:49

inspired by some of the situations or things

50:51

that I might have heard about. So it's

50:53

really nice to have a creative outlet for

50:56

that. Well, you said you

50:58

obviously, you're writing about the glamour

51:01

but in terms of missing all of that, let

51:03

it carry on with that. Well, me and my

51:05

slippers any day, I'm such a homebody

51:07

and really I always have been. I'm

51:11

so happy being at home but I'm working for

51:13

Gold Collagen as well, which is the other brand.

51:15

So I'm still, we're attaching celebrities to the brand.

51:17

There's lots of exciting plans for that. So I've

51:19

still got the ones home. Yeah, I think I'll

51:22

always need that because it is fun. And also

51:24

Rosie, I think you were so synonymous with

51:26

that role for so long. It takes people a

51:28

long time to kind of think that you're something

51:31

else. Yeah, and I'm still at last. So I'm

51:33

still host, yeah, in a good place which is

51:35

the podcast I host for Hello. I

51:37

interview lots of people in the public eye

51:39

on that. We've got another series coming up

51:42

that's actually gonna be with business leaders coming

51:44

up soon, a collaboration with Marks and Spencer

51:46

which I'm very excited about. So there are

51:48

still lots of things coming from the Hello

51:50

Cab, it's really nice. It sounds great. Well,

51:52

it's been brilliant having you here and thank

51:54

you so much for talking so candidly

51:57

and openly about what it felt

51:59

like to... to almost reach

52:01

burnout because, as I

52:03

say, I've had a listener just yesterday

52:05

ask for an episode on this very topic

52:07

and I think it will really resonate. Oh,

52:10

well thanks Gabby. You know, as

52:12

I said to you at the beginning, I'm such

52:14

a believer in the power of sharing our stories,

52:16

so if it's inspired anybody listening then that's a

52:18

real one. Best of luck. Thank you. Well,

52:25

I really appreciated Rosie's honesty because it's hard

52:27

to speak about the times you felt most

52:29

vulnerable and I thought it was quite profound

52:31

when she said, your job will never thank

52:34

you but your family will, as

52:36

clearly are. I also think Isabel's view that

52:38

it's never too late to make some space

52:40

for yourself is a really important point to

52:42

keep in mind and I value

52:44

your feedback as well, so please do leave a rating

52:46

or a review if you enjoyed this episode and

52:48

you can also join our Facebook

52:50

page, the Mid Pointers, that's the

52:53

mid.pointers and let us know any guests

52:55

or topics you'd like to hear on the podcast. A

52:58

huge thanks again to Rosie Nixon and

53:00

Isabel Williams and thanks to Spiritland Creative

53:02

and most importantly to you for listening.

53:05

I'll be back next Wednesday. See you then. Hi,

53:16

I'm Danny Pellegrino from the Everything

53:18

Iconic podcast and who doesn't love

53:20

a classic burger from McDonald's? That's

53:22

right, McDonald's classic burgers are hotter,

53:24

juicier and tastier than ever. The

53:27

patties are cooked to juicy perfection.

53:29

I love the cheese perfectly melted

53:31

on top. I love the Big

53:33

Mac that has special sauce in

53:35

every bowl. I love the pillowy

53:38

soft golden bun. So in the

53:40

words of the hamburger, which I

53:42

believe means grab McDonald's best burgers

53:44

ever before hamburgers does at a

53:46

McDonald's near you. Botox

53:48

cosmetic, out of botulinum toxin A,

53:51

FDA approved for over 20 years.

53:53

So tell to us

53:55

via botox cosmetic is right for

53:58

you for full prescribing information. including

54:00

botched warning, visit botoxcosmetic.com or

54:02

call 877-351-0300. Remember

54:07

to ask for Botox Cosmetic by name.

54:10

To see for yourself and learn

54:12

more, visit botoxcosmetic.com. That's

54:15

botoxcosmetic.com.