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0:39

Hello,

0:39

and welcome to midpoint. My

0:41

guest today is a man who many of us might well

0:44

feel we've grown up with. He's been on our screens

0:46

and in our ears for the best part three decades.

0:49

He was working in a hardware shop cutting

0:51

panels of wood when he was scouted as

0:53

a model at the clothes show alive.

0:55

and he quickly found himself heading to the capital

0:57

to work and then getting into children's

0:59

TV. And of course, eventually t four,

1:01

which is where he really became a household

1:04

name. He is, of course, a Vernon

1:06

case since then. He's presented dozens

1:08

of shows, including family fortunes

1:10

and is a regular

1:11

on BBC Radio too.

1:13

His other half, of course, is test early

1:15

as well. So theirs is a long lasting showbiz

1:17

marriage. We had such an interesting

1:19

chat and like all the best chats, it went in

1:21

a totally different direction. to that which I was

1:24

expecting. We talked about what it means to be content

1:26

and whether or not he's there yet and

1:28

why he's such a big expert on the menopause

1:31

and the state of modern masculinity. I

1:33

won't tell you anymore, you're gonna have to listen, but make

1:35

sure you listen long enough to hear why he once

1:37

wore vest made of sanitary pads.

1:41

Hey,

1:41

Vernon. How are you?

1:42

I'm very good. Thanks, gloves. Yeah. Really

1:44

good.

1:45

Annoyingly, when I mentioned that

1:47

I wanted to have you on midpoint and we wanted to

1:49

see whether we could arrange that and the person

1:51

I mentioned it to said, oh, no, you can't because he's

1:53

too young. I said, what you're talking about is forty

1:55

eight years old. And she was

1:57

in her late thirty. So I thought at actually

1:59

she was

1:59

probably a major fan of t four

2:02

and in her head, you've never grown up.

2:04

That's apart from the fact that you look unfreeze

2:06

and be young. Do you get that quite a lot

2:08

from people do they kind of keep you in a certain

2:10

period

2:10

of life? Yeah. I think the reason for that is

2:13

because everything I did was

2:15

over a period of, I'd say, about

2:17

ten years. So through that ten year

2:20

period, if you started watching me at the

2:22

age of ten, you then

2:24

went through your twenties, you

2:26

know, and when we did splash and family

2:28

fortunes and all that kind of stuff. And

2:30

that it's it's it's obvious in the way

2:32

that people talk to you as well. People kind

2:34

of think your well, and it's a beautiful

2:36

thing. Don't get me wrong, but people just start

2:39

mid conversation instead of high, are you burning

2:41

care? It's just like, hey. How are you? Is everything

2:43

alright? Like like, they know you because

2:46

I've been III guess in

2:48

people's front rooms since ninety eight,

2:50

I think it was. Well,

2:51

you've grown up they've grown up with you. Haven't they?

2:53

They did t four as well, and then you did the more grown

2:55

up TV stuff. I guess they've grown up with

2:57

you. They've had families when you've had families.

3:00

you know, I'm not families. You've got the ones, you

3:02

know, children. And, you know, I I

3:04

suppose they feel like your

3:07

kind of maturing

3:07

at the same rate as them. Yeah. I guess

3:09

so. And it's it's a real you know, we're going on this life

3:11

journey together. That's what it is because when

3:13

we did t four, Jun and I, we literally

3:16

felt like we had the world at our feet. It was the most

3:18

amazing TV show to be involved with. And then

3:20

prior to that, I did kids television. So

3:22

that was kind of getting used to the ropes

3:24

of life, tele and, you know, the intricacies

3:26

of of how you talk to people, really,

3:28

and and what skill in an art form that

3:31

actually is. And then with t four,

3:33

we were just we just were

3:35

living the dream. I mean, I guess these

3:37

days, we were the equivalent of, I guess, social

3:39

influences without the digital nonsense

3:41

that we we're bombarded with today.

3:44

And, you know, we have the the actors.

3:46

We have the music artists. we had

3:48

those people who had something to say on the show on

3:50

a regular basis. And it was

3:52

at a time Sunday morning where people are

3:54

most vulnerable And that's why I think

3:56

we got away with murder because people

3:58

rather hungover, stormed,

4:01

going to work, couldn't be bothered

4:03

in in that mentality of just bombarded

4:05

me with stuff, with useless stuff. And that's

4:07

what we did. And also, they didn't have

4:10

the social media platforms to tell you that

4:12

you're either defending them or they --

4:14

Yeah. -- they couldn't, you know, they couldn't be bothered

4:16

to listen to it. So they just sat there and absorbed

4:18

it. Yeah. If they didn't like it, they just turned off, they

4:20

just didn't watch. and and it was a period

4:23

where t four was was literally in

4:25

its boom period. And I I think it

4:27

I think personally that a show like that

4:29

is is seriously missed to

4:31

do it because we are bombarded by all

4:33

these characters who you only see for

4:35

thirty seconds at their best.

4:38

And that's the problem with digital media. Is

4:40

everyone looks sexy. Everyone's successful. No

4:42

one's failed. And we don't

4:44

get to see that. And that's the

4:46

the big thing that I learned when I did I'm

4:48

a celebrity. was that

4:50

we are bombarded by absolute

4:53

nonsense and we consume it and

4:55

we think it's great And

4:57

I think that's that's a

4:59

huge flaw in the way that we are

5:01

as a society today is that we

5:03

are taking on board all this garbage

5:05

and we think it means something, whereas

5:08

it actually doesn't. The only thing that matters in

5:10

your life is what's between your

5:12

four walls, like you and your

5:14

family, and that's the most important thing,

5:16

not someone's pasta salad with a bit of avocado

5:18

and chili sprinkles on it. That doesn't

5:20

matter. But, you know, that's and

5:22

and going back to t four, we we

5:24

were I guess I guess we were

5:26

that. You know, everything was gray on t four

5:29

behind the scenes. There were a a few ups

5:31

and downs, but it was gray. It was

5:33

really good fun.

5:35

just to kind of dissect a bit of what you said

5:37

there, I totally agree with what you're saying.

5:39

I wonder if some of that is because

5:41

people are just so confused in modern

5:43

life. for various reasons. And, you know, we've

5:45

got this bombardment of serious

5:48

news, which people get in snippets.

5:50

They don't really deep dive into any

5:52

stories at all or then they align themselves

5:54

in an echo chamber of one side of a story.

5:56

They don't really ever hear both sides

5:58

of the story. The attention spans

5:59

because of social media

6:00

mean that people want everything in bite sized chunks

6:03

and they seem to think then they've got

6:05

to grips with the story. So I was like skim reading

6:07

life, isn't it? Never really actually going through the

6:09

whole paragraph. Is it reversible?

6:11

Do you think this trend? Because what you

6:13

talk about there on Saturday morning Sunday

6:15

morning, Kelly, and Saturday morning, Kelly

6:16

too. We grew up. Didn't we with those?

6:18

Whether it was swap shop depending on your age,

6:20

live and kicking? Saturday's superstore as well.

6:23

as well. Saturday's superstore. you know,

6:25

all those his was before that.

6:27

All those shows, our kids haven't

6:29

even grown up with that. Let alone, you know, younger

6:31

kids now. And those were so important,

6:33

I

6:33

think, those shows for children

6:35

and and how they then found

6:38

interests

6:38

or what their passions were or

6:40

how they you know, because those shows weren't just

6:43

flighty weather. They had tackled some serious

6:45

issues as well. Yeah. We did. We talked about

6:47

mental health. We talked about alcoholism and drug

6:49

addiction. We talked about teenage

6:52

pregnancies on a regular basis on

6:54

t four. So we were aware,

6:56

we did feel like we were in touch with our audience.

6:59

but we only got that essence of

7:01

what our audience were as about by

7:03

actually going out and and and

7:05

chatting to them. Mhmm. But I think they I think

7:07

this day and age, I think we're all searching for

7:09

perfection. I think

7:11

perfection doesn't exist. I believe

7:13

it doesn't exist. You can be the

7:16

best or you can do the best that you can

7:18

do, but it will never be perfect. Mhmm. You know, I

7:20

don't have anything against the search for perfection.

7:22

but I think it's a train journey that never

7:24

ever ends. And the

7:26

one thing that I've learned is that

7:29

train can stop when you

7:31

become content. Contentment

7:33

is huge and it takes a very

7:35

brave person to stop and

7:37

go, right, I am content.

7:39

I don't need anymore because I find

7:41

happiness in what I have and what I've

7:43

earned. And do

7:44

you think modern society values

7:46

that? No. absolutely not.

7:48

I think I I think it's overlooked.

7:50

I think someone who is

7:53

content and I and I don't think

7:55

contentment is happiness. Those

7:57

two run-in parallels, but it's not the same thing.

8:00

I think someone If you look

8:02

at Let's say, for example,

8:04

what's going on at the moment, the government have decided

8:06

to give wealthy people a tax cut

8:08

and then done a u-turn. Why

8:10

did that bracket of people want more?

8:13

You have the most money

8:15

in the country. You're part of that, why is it one or

8:17

two percent? But yet, the government are

8:19

giving you the opportunity to

8:21

gain more money? Why?

8:23

What do you need? What are you searching

8:25

for if you've got billions and billions,

8:27

hundreds of millions of pounds? Where

8:29

does your contentment end or

8:31

start? Can

8:31

anybody be content? I think

8:33

they can. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, there's

8:35

a couple of people who talk like

8:37

their phone contentment. And John

8:40

Coldwell, you know you know John Coldwell, the guy

8:42

who's that's on their mobile phone company. I

8:44

mean, he's a billionaire. Yeah.

8:46

But he he's not searching anymore.

8:48

He's become a filgotinib. It's a

8:50

billionaire. Well, yeah, people living in a two bedroom

8:52

flat

8:52

in Newcastle and you've got

8:53

three kids and you're a single parent

8:55

and you're living on state benefits. Can

8:57

you

8:57

find contentment as easily as John

9:00

Coldwell? Here's

9:00

the Rob Dorr. He's found it because he's

9:02

worked hard for it. and he's gone

9:04

out and sorted, and he's gone and grafted. And yeah, you know,

9:06

he had to win forward to selling his company in this

9:08

time. But he said, right, I don't need

9:10

anymore. Mhmm. You know, whereas other other

9:12

multibillionaires would go I'll hang on a

9:14

minute. I do because I'm

9:16

greedy and I want more.

9:18

Mhmm. But I I think what you're saying

9:20

there is someone who lives in a two up two don't with

9:22

a with a tele and goes to work

9:24

every day. Absolutely, you can find

9:26

consentment. One hundred percent, anyone

9:28

can find it. It's just how hungry you

9:30

are in my opinion. I don't know. I'm not a

9:32

psychologist. It's how much do you want or

9:34

how much do you think you need to

9:36

be content. And I think contentment

9:38

is huge. Can

9:40

can you still though carry on being

9:42

ambitious for yourself and searching

9:44

for projects and things that you

9:46

enjoy doing and say, well, I'm

9:48

content, but my contentment actually comes

9:50

from finding out more about myself

9:52

exploring. It's not about being still. Is it? because your

9:54

contentment sounds quite static.

9:56

what I'm saying is is you get to that place

9:58

with contentment in my

9:59

opinion where

10:01

the hunger for success

10:03

and that little devil inside you that, you know,

10:05

because everyone says, what's the phrase? You can

10:07

be a gentleman at the dinner table and a

10:09

bastard in business. It's

10:11

when that pressure kind of is

10:14

released off your shoulders to go

10:16

searching and find it for success.

10:18

My my dad, Laurie Driver, for fifty eight years.

10:21

He's content. He's happy

10:23

with what he's got. And don't think

10:25

money is a money is a part of the algorithm,

10:27

but it's not the biggest part of

10:29

that equation. I think friends and

10:31

family is probably the most

10:33

important to anyone. And

10:34

how long do you think it took

10:36

you? Or when did

10:37

you kind of settle on that

10:39

as your state of mind and your your

10:41

reason

10:41

for being. Well, no. III don't

10:43

think I am yet. I don't think I I have contentment.

10:46

No. No. No. But that that's what that's

10:48

the goal. That's the one thing that

10:50

I I kind of I would I I

10:52

think

10:52

I know when I would get there. Do

10:54

you know what I mean? Right. So why are

10:56

you not concerned then? When I moved to

10:58

London, I read an article in

11:01

GQ magazine. and it was by

11:03

Ashton Kutcher, I think he was. And he did

11:05

that thing where you

11:07

write a list of ten things you wanna do before you

11:09

thought. Mhmm. I thought, oh, it's good that. I'll I'll do that as

11:11

a kind of a let's set me goals type

11:13

thing. And I've never been one for

11:16

kind of sitting

11:19

back and thinking, right, I'm gonna do this. I

11:21

wanna do that. But what it did,

11:23

moving to London and Living you know, in a

11:25

in a one bedroom flat with two other

11:27

blocks, three of us in a one bedroom flat in

11:29

peck and rye, thinking this is going

11:31

absolutely nowhere. I'm supposed to be

11:33

in this Glamorous, glitzy,

11:35

fashion world, doing modeling. And I

11:38

wasn't, you know, I was just racking up

11:40

debt. It was kind of really been notting us

11:42

going out and drinking all the time,

11:44

blah blah, blah, blah, in the West End from

11:46

Thursday to Sunday.

11:47

the And then I

11:48

thought, well, I'm gonna do this. I'm

11:51

gonna write ten things to do before

11:53

and forty. And I've got two left. So

11:55

that's why I think my

11:57

contentment won't be

11:59

locked in because I've got two left. because you set

12:01

yourself that goal and you can't really -- Yeah. --

12:03

set myself a goal. And I and I didn't realize

12:05

at the time what I was doing because I didn't read

12:07

into it. I didn't think, oh, this is You won't tell us

12:09

what the two are, the two that are left.

12:11

No. No. No. No. Because I I don't think that because

12:13

I think it's that butterfly effect. once

12:15

you mention it -- Yeah. -- that things happen that can stop

12:18

you achieving your goal. You know, I

12:19

don't I think it is too late for you to play in the

12:22

NFL.

12:22

Well, Aged you

12:25

know what? I put the fuzz back on the thirty sixth

12:27

thinking they had a chance.

12:32

Oh, that's that's

12:34

sort of fascinating. And actually, you just

12:36

mentioned you're flying pick them. So let's go back

12:38

because When you were a wood

12:40

cutter? Yeah. I

12:40

worked in a DIY shop for me because I'm cutting

12:43

fence panels. And you

12:43

apparently just live for the weekends. That was

12:46

your life. You're waiting for your your you wait. So you

12:48

go and spend it at the weekends. After.

12:50

And you were scouted as a kind of great sliding

12:52

doors moment. Somebody said, you're

12:54

good looking. you should be a model. Right?

12:56

At that point, I mean, I imagine that's how

12:58

it how it

12:58

went. Was it? No. Well, I've

13:00

got I've

13:00

got two photographs of that. very

13:03

day when all that

13:05

happened. And we basically went

13:07

out to the closure life

13:09

because

13:09

they had a bar it

13:11

was where lots of girls hung out.

13:13

My best friend, Luke, who was doing t

13:15

t training at the time, he had more time often

13:18

than than anyone. said,

13:20

come on. We're going to close you on Friday. I was like, god,

13:22

I've got I've got work. He went, no no

13:24

no comments. Great. My sister just come back. She said it's

13:26

absolutely awesome. Great form. lots

13:28

of bargains for Christmas because clothes show was on, I

13:30

think it was, like, fourteenth to seventeenth to

13:32

December. I was, like, oh, okay. I didn't

13:34

have it I didn't have that much bear cash out there. I'll go and get

13:36

Christmas presents at the closure alive.

13:38

And and we have such a laugh, and then but the end

13:40

of the day, a guy called

13:42

James Knoll, who was with select model

13:44

management. he came up to me and

13:46

said, oh, listen, you've got the look that we're looking

13:48

for at the moment. It wasn't like your good looking,

13:50

blah blah blah. It was like the look. And

13:52

I I always thought I was like the fifth

13:54

or sixth member of Oasis. We had

13:56

the long shaggy hair top to

13:58

the toy in jigsaw clothing.

14:00

And

14:02

we're just that we're just laughing. We're just we were

14:04

just giggling our way through the day. And

14:06

then that's that's kind of, yeah,

14:08

my sliding doors more and that's where everything

14:10

literally changed. That was on a Friday and then following

14:12

Friday, I'd moved down to London and never went back.

14:15

If

14:15

you think about what life could have been

14:17

like, if you decided to stay at work

14:19

that Friday and not go to the close show

14:21

live, Have

14:21

you ever done that? Have you ever put yourself back in

14:24

Bolton? I have,

14:24

and I do on a regular basis because I

14:26

kind of think where was that journey taken me?

14:29

Because I was always kind of

14:31

quite less affair at school. I always

14:33

had a feeling and I know this is a cliche and it

14:35

goes back to what we've been talking about, but I always had

14:37

a feeling that I wouldn't be a lorry driver

14:39

like me down. are tapping

14:41

keys. I knew that that wasn't the life for

14:43

me, and I knew that something would

14:45

happen. And and that's why I never

14:48

really I don't know to my detriment, I

14:50

guess. I never really knuckle

14:53

down in on my studies because I thought I

14:55

don't this is this is

14:57

not what is happening to

14:59

me. It was so bizarre like

15:01

I thought, yeah, a

15:03

level French, never gonna use it. Environmental science

15:05

never gonna use it. Do you regret any of that?

15:07

Because you're a curious man and you

15:10

you clearly have got a brain. Do you regret any

15:12

of that that you didn't take your studies a

15:14

bit more seriously. Yeah.

15:15

No, because I had I had the

15:17

best time. I'm I'm at great people

15:20

at college.

15:21

the

15:23

And

15:24

I think it was because the fact

15:27

that I had this sixth sense that

15:29

something weird would happen to me. something

15:31

strange. Were people

15:31

telling you this? Or was this totally inside

15:33

your gut? No.

15:34

It was just a feeling. It was just

15:36

a feeling. And I thought

15:39

that that feeling would take me to America. I

15:41

thought, yeah, I'm gonna go and work in the United

15:43

States. And you did? I did eventually, but I

15:45

think if at that period of time, you know, leaving

15:47

sixth form, I

15:49

think that feeling was because I wanted

15:51

to go and work for my uncle in

15:53

Seattle. He was a gardener. because

15:55

I was big into american and I

15:57

think that was the the the

15:59

kind of wave that was running through

16:02

me veins. But when

16:04

the fashion thing happened, I still knew that that

16:06

wasn't it. I thought I'm gonna do this

16:08

because it's a diversion from cutting wood

16:10

panels. But I still had this feeling

16:12

that fashion isn't for me. It's

16:14

it's not the thing that I've been waiting for. And

16:16

then the moment someone put a microphone

16:18

in your hand, a light bulb illuminated

16:20

above my head, and it just went,

16:22

this is it. This

16:23

is it. And it felt really, I

16:26

felt really warm inside. You

16:28

were hurt. It was like,

16:30

oh, finally. I know what it

16:32

was. It's this. Talking

16:35

shy a living. Turns

16:38

out, I'm excellent. Yeah. God,

16:40

I could talk a class heart to sleep.

16:43

Everything fell into play because know,

16:46

my my mom and dad brought me up really

16:48

well. And I

16:48

think everything accumulated to that moment to

16:51

talk into people. just

16:53

chatting. Stay with

16:54

me. We'll be back after this.

17:01

Everyone gets AT and T's best

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17:33

Okay. Let's go to parenting

17:35

then because you've got two teenagers.

17:37

One's gonna be flying the nest in the next

17:39

year or so and you're gonna have empty nest

17:41

indra. But how has your parenting been

17:44

influenced by what you clearly really

17:46

admire your parents and what they

17:48

did for you and how they grounded you and

17:50

how hard they were? at

17:52

how hard have you found that you and

17:54

test to instill that in your

17:56

girls, you know, in terms of not just watching

17:58

what I do, but how

17:59

do you explain to them without sounding

18:01

lecturing. Yeah. It's very

18:03

difficult. I'll be honest with you. It's really

18:06

difficult because The main thing is they

18:08

go to school longer than most, you

18:10

know, like Amber gets dropped off at

18:12

eight and then she doesn't get home

18:14

till five ish, and

18:16

fingers at six from at the moment, and she leaves the

18:18

house at seven, so she's up at six, and she

18:20

doesn't get back till if she's

18:22

driving, she doesn't get

18:24

back till APA five. If she's on the bus, she's gonna

18:26

get back to court by seven, APA

18:28

seven. So it's difficult. And then they've got

18:30

homework to do. So at the moment, what I'm

18:32

trying like, feel you need a part time job, you need

18:34

to learn how to work, you know, you need to

18:36

you need to have a manager, you need to have a boss, you need

18:38

to be spoken to, you need to

18:40

be given on how to do things blah blah

18:42

blah blah. But it's difficult at the moment.

18:44

And I think from a parenting perspective,

18:46

I think you've got to

18:48

keep everything relative to who

18:50

they are, you know, to their personalities

18:53

because I would do a completely different numbers

18:55

like the Delhi Alarmist you saw lay back

18:57

and relaxed. and, you know, cute

18:59

sea and, like,

19:01

a little panda, I guess. And then

19:03

Phoebe can be quite rock and roll, but then she's

19:05

got these sensibilities where

19:07

she really processes everything. So

19:09

from a parenting perspective, you have to be

19:11

quite aware of how she processes

19:14

situations and how she deals with them. So

19:16

I think it's been a really exciting

19:18

journey. Do you think your parents thought

19:20

as much about parenting? parents

19:23

know. No. I don't think they did because

19:25

just it wouldn't. It was simple. Yeah. It was

19:27

because it was a lot easier then. It

19:29

was like, right. You go to school. If you

19:31

brighten up, you to six form. If you write enough,

19:33

you go to university. If not, get

19:35

a job. That was it. Get a

19:37

job. And I could have always been a lorry driver and

19:39

that always sticks with me. My dad said, listen, don't worry about

19:41

it. You know, coming drag for

19:44

me. So that was kind of AAA

19:46

fallback, I guess.

19:47

We talk a lot on this podcast

19:49

we have an equal number of women

19:51

to men guests, so we and the women quite

19:53

often be in the age they are, start talking about things

19:55

that are going on in midlife. You know how open, Kenny,

19:57

he's talked about his prostate cancer and a

19:59

lot of my

19:59

guests talk about menopause and stuff like that. Do

20:02

you have a quite an open dialogue at

20:04

home

20:04

about all these changes that are going on? Are

20:06

you aware of what happens to women at this

20:09

age? Oh, god. I've hoisted this mind, of

20:11

course. Especially

20:16

subject, the menopause. Yeah.

20:19

Yeah. Of course. I I think we but what I do think is

20:21

great is that it was like

20:23

a silent moment in a female's

20:26

life that no one ever

20:28

taught and I'll tell you when I was I used to be a caretaker

20:30

at primary school. And the first

20:32

time I was introduced to the menopause was

20:34

one of the teachers had started taking

20:37

HRT. and it was the big

20:39

chat because this school was quite

20:41

unique in all the teachers were female

20:43

and of a certain age. So

20:45

the chat in the teachers

20:47

staff room was all about HRT. Oh,

20:50

I'm on HRT. And I was like, what

20:52

the heck is HRT? And I had the

20:54

best head messages this more

20:56

mature lady who was bit rock and roll. She's always

20:58

smoking tabs. She was like a

21:01

stereotypical rolled dial headmistress. You know what? She

21:03

was really sweet. Had a bit of an edge

21:05

to her. bright red hair

21:07

died and smoking. Come on,

21:09

kids. Get in here.

21:11

She's giving away. It's a

21:11

class. Let's get in here. Well

21:14

done. Verdant. We've had

21:16

an accident in the hall. Can you clear me

21:18

up? I'm like, oh, god. Yes.

21:20

No problem. Absolutely. So

21:22

I said to her because I really, really,

21:24

really liked her. I was there for about

21:26

eighteen months, and we've gotten really well that

21:29

she was so cool. And I

21:30

said to excuse me, can I ask

21:32

what HRT is? And she said,

21:34

oh, it's hormone replacement treatment.

21:37

I'm like, what's

21:39

style that? She said,

21:40

oh, well, it's when a lady goes through a change.

21:42

They start in the other a body old, you

21:44

know, moves on to the next stage. Blah blah blah.

21:46

I was like, oh, okay. So that was my

21:48

first experience of the menopause in

21:50

in this stuff, in this primary

21:52

school in Bolton. And then subsequently,

21:55

you realize how it affects people -- Mhmm.

21:57

-- you know, and know that we can talk about it.

21:59

Know that it's not a thing as

22:02

such. And I think that's a good thing about, you know,

22:04

it sounds like at the beginning of the podcast, we

22:06

were having a go and we were we sounded

22:08

like the grumpy parents in the corner

22:10

talking about digital media taking over our

22:13

lives. But I think things like this, the

22:15

menopause with literally

22:18

huge influx of evolution really is

22:20

-- Yeah. -- actually in the last two. It really is, you know,

22:22

and everyone's talking about it. You know, the

22:24

loose women, they've made a thing

22:26

about which is great because they've got a predominantly female audience.

22:28

Mhmm. It's a thing on this morning and I

22:30

know because I've been there. You

22:33

know, Lisa normally. BBC breakfast did a campaign five years

22:35

ago. The show was Matt's group. There's, you

22:37

know -- Yeah. -- obviously, Devina's book and

22:39

there's number one in the charts.

22:40

There's so much going on that you can

22:42

not fail

22:43

to miss him. Exactly. But I think

22:45

I think I think

22:46

what's what's really interesting from a from

22:48

a male perspective active is that

22:51

it's been going on and what only

22:53

no. You know, only no.

22:55

Are we actually talking about

22:57

it, realizing that It affects people so

23:00

differently. You know, it's a big personal

23:02

thing, but it affects everyone. And

23:04

you live in a house right with two

23:06

teenage girls, and,

23:07

you know, a

23:07

woman who's over the age of fifty. Right? So you And

23:10

a dog with no testicles.

23:14

So you so you've got, you know, you've got

23:16

kind of all all kinds of things going on there. You've

23:18

been a very female household, aren't you? So you have to

23:20

know about this stuff.

23:21

Oh, well, I've I've always find myself

23:23

in situ. I've never aware from a

23:25

situation. I did GCSE Spanish, and I

23:27

was the only lad in the class. And

23:30

that was an education at

23:33

fourteen. although senior readers. Oh, my goodness,

23:35

mate. And I was the only Romano.

23:38

It was kind of, you know, periods were

23:40

always being talked about. girls

23:42

getting measured for the bras for the first

23:44

time was a thing. So I was in

23:46

this environment where I

23:48

like was like, just taking

23:49

in all this information because I I didn't

23:51

start puberty till seventeen and half, so I'm still a

23:53

bear bit at this age. But all these girls are growing

23:56

up and they're getting their periods in

23:58

this town line around in the Spanish class

23:59

and panty pads and all kinds of

24:02

stuff. And I just

24:04

I just thought, well, whilst

24:05

I'm here, might as well ask some questions. Well, you

24:08

only had a brother at home as well, didn't you?

24:10

Yeah. I mean, it does Laurie driving down the

24:12

road. I mean, mom being AAA

24:14

Roman Catholic never taught about anything.

24:16

So you didn't get any sex education from

24:18

No whatsoever. No. It

24:20

was literally birds and the bees. That's

24:22

what sex education was in in

24:24

our Catholic school. No. Actually,

24:27

I'm lying. It's really funny. We did

24:29

sex education from a scientific perspective.

24:32

Right. know. The picture the picture of ovaries

24:34

were like a ram's head. That

24:36

one. Yeah. And no one no one tells you

24:39

about erections And, you know,

24:41

everything else that comes with it, it's just the

24:43

sperm meets an egg.

24:46

And everyone's

24:48

like, We know what happens, but

24:50

why can't you tell us? You know what I mean? You know what I mean? That's

24:52

it a secret. How does this firm eat the egg?

24:54

What's that? Wait for r

24:56

e for that one. That's

24:59

one thing that is

25:01

great about digital media is It can

25:03

spread positive messages. And you can access

25:06

information very quickly and freely, which

25:08

isfab. Well,

25:09

it is time for me now to bring in

25:11

our guest today who is James

25:14

Boardman. James is a life

25:16

coach but for men specifically

25:18

who he feels or they feel they're

25:20

in a rut. This wasn't directed at you by the

25:22

way because you are certainly not in a rut but

25:24

it's why I'm interested in this is because of

25:26

this kind of idea of the crisis of

25:29

masculinity, which I think is something that he

25:31

will talk about. So let's bringing

25:33

James. James, good to see. Thank you

25:35

very much for coming on the midpoint. How are

25:36

you? I'm good. How are you

25:39

guys? Good. very good. Just did

25:40

a brief introduction there, James, saying you're

25:42

you work with men who feel they're in a rut.

25:44

So tell us about the kinds of of men

25:46

who come to you and what it is that they're struggling with. One of the

25:48

main things I think

25:49

is that a guy gets to a certain point

25:51

in his life and he's struggling to figure

25:54

out what's next to his life. And one

25:56

of the biggest things is a conflicting identity

25:59

of who they

25:59

are, what they want now. So for for a

26:02

lot of guys, they have kids Marriott's

26:04

got the job. Mhmm. And it's almost a case of,

26:06

like, where do I go from here? What's next? How

26:08

how do I reinvent myself? How

26:11

how do I create some form

26:13

of passion and desire. And

26:15

for a lot of guys, they slump into

26:17

that rut, which makes me feel quite

26:19

hollow about they're gonna go. and for lot

26:21

of guys that causes mental health issues,

26:23

emotional health issues as well, and

26:25

they tend

26:26

to disconnect from life completely, which is

26:28

obviously what we're seeing quite a lot at the minute.

26:30

what you described, what they've done in their

26:31

lives. Are we talking men in their kind of mid to late

26:34

forties,

26:34

fifties? Yeah. I I would say so

26:36

I think the range for the guys that come

26:38

through is anywhere between thirty five and

26:40

fifty, but I think more than ever that actually

26:43

there's an element of this young woman as

26:45

well. So I would say

26:47

mid twenties going

26:49

on and I feel that there's a lot of them that are

26:51

lost on knowing actually what they want

26:53

in life and self pressure

26:55

through careers and running businesses

26:57

and relationships. So more

27:00

and more younger men are coming through with those

27:02

issues and dilemmas. And

27:03

I just talked about this concept, the

27:05

crisis of masculinity. Is this what we're talking

27:07

about then? Do you feel? Yeah.

27:09

I think we are slowly getting rid

27:11

of an old way of thinking and

27:13

trying to evolve into a new

27:15

way of thinking and what

27:19

men think is acceptable and

27:21

isn't acceptable in terms of

27:23

masculinity being comfortable with being

27:25

vulnerable -- Mhmm. -- being able to cry,

27:27

being open, and whereas one of

27:29

the things I tried to portray is a lot of the

27:31

struggles I had coming out of the military and

27:33

tried to be quite honest with that.

27:35

I think If other men see other men being

27:37

vulnerable and open and and

27:39

displaying those emotions,

27:41

it really encourages other guys

27:43

to go why why am I not doing

27:45

this? I I would question

27:47

that most men's wives don't know what

27:49

they're going through because the

27:51

two embarrassed to open up or they don't

27:53

know where to start opening up. And having

27:55

worked with a lot of men, it's quite

27:57

common. They just bottle it in.

27:59

Can I can I ask a question,

28:01

James, just quickly. What is

28:04

masculinity? It's a really good question. I've been asked

28:06

this many a time. So I think

28:08

masculinity is individual based for

28:10

me, it's about understanding your

28:12

own emotions and how

28:14

you feel and being able to portray

28:17

that individually rather than comparing yourself. So

28:19

for example, social media is huge

28:21

at the minute, and I think it messes

28:24

linearity becomes conflicted when we start seeing lots

28:26

of other different male figures

28:28

and actually how they portray to

28:30

us on the front edge. many

28:32

people what we don't see is what happens behind

28:35

the cameras, behind the footage,

28:37

behind the video. We

28:39

talked

28:39

a lot about this actually earlier

28:41

on a podcast. So it's it's

28:41

brilliant that you've brought it back around actually specifically

28:43

to this area because actually a lot of

28:46

people worry about young girls seeing, you

28:48

know,

28:48

images that lead to eating disorders

28:51

and

28:51

ideas of perfection, but this

28:53

is I think the crisis of masculinity

28:55

that men are as affected and

28:58

it's not as easy for men to acknowledge

29:00

that there is affected. Whereas

29:02

girls may be finding it easier to

29:03

have those conversations. I think so. And I

29:05

think I think you do as a keyword in there, you

29:07

said, and it's acceptance. So it's

29:10

accepting that it that it's okay to

29:12

be vulnerable the right days when we

29:14

wake up. and we feel very hollow and we don't

29:16

feel like we're on top of our

29:18

game. That's okay. One bad day

29:20

doesn't mean one bad life.

29:22

one bad month, one bad week, you know. It just

29:24

means that we're having a bad day in acknowledging

29:26

that. It's okay to have a bad day

29:29

and and accept those emotions that we're going through,

29:31

understand them as well. I think is another key

29:33

thing. Sorry to interrupt James.

29:35

Do but do you think that

29:37

society no longer allows a

29:39

male to

29:40

be a bloke. I think the actual

29:42

title of bloke being a man is

29:44

actually for many men confusing as

29:46

it is that many men don't know

29:48

how how am I supposed to be today? I

29:51

think Can

29:51

I just ask burn burning? What you

29:53

said there, burning, which prompted the answer from

29:55

James about a bloke being

29:57

a

29:57

bloke, I think, is is what you said. What

29:59

what do you perceive that bloke?

30:02

What's a what if you is

30:03

a bloke? I guess, what I'm

30:05

trying to say is that

30:07

Can can males

30:09

be a bloke? Can can we

30:11

be, you know, a bit ruckus,

30:14

a bit obnoxious? Can we sit down

30:16

in the pub these days and and

30:18

just have a conversation

30:20

amongst ourselves without it

30:22

defending anyone. That kind of thing. Do you know what I

30:24

mean? I'm not talking about bad stuff. I'm just

30:26

saying blogs, sat around and say, well, I've been

30:28

a few beers, you know. So

30:30

I think when you look at

30:30

men, there is a huge category of

30:33

different types of men. like,

30:35

we we there are

30:37

we all kind of fit into some sort

30:39

of spectrum. In some way, there are the lads that love

30:41

to go down the pub, get on it,

30:44

one particular type of lifestyle. There are labs who love

30:46

to be dedicated to their family, and they spend

30:48

all their time in their family. And

30:50

I think what's really important for

30:52

I think any guy understand is that being

30:54

an individual individual and authentic

30:57

is absolutely key to

30:59

understanding who you are as a

31:01

human being. And I think

31:03

that when you are authentic and honest with

31:05

yourself about what you want out your life and

31:07

you follow through with that, I

31:09

think what you what you get is a

31:11

true identity and contentment. And

31:13

I think every

31:15

man

31:16

every man is not necessarily looking

31:19

for happiness, but he's looking for it to

31:21

be content. And whether that's where they

31:23

don't wanna drink in a park or whether they

31:25

wanna go out with their family, or

31:27

whether they wanna travel the world,

31:29

it's what he comes back to.

31:30

Vernon smiling and and

31:33

kind of high fiving himself because we've

31:35

talked about contentment a lot as well. And

31:37

James, you haven't been sat listening to the whole of this

31:39

podcast, so it's quite it's quite incredible actually.

31:41

The synergistic nature

31:43

of your of your chat because it really does

31:45

bleed into everything that

31:46

we've we've talked about earlier on. So But

31:48

I I think I think the more like

31:51

going back to what you said, James, I mean, you know,

31:53

I have this ridiculous,

31:55

almost embarrassing admiration for

31:57

the royal marines. And I think

32:00

watching what they go through for that green bureaus,

32:02

that coveted green bureaus, and how important it is,

32:04

and what it means, you're you're you're

32:07

taken to limpston you're

32:09

drained of everything that you are aware of, and

32:11

then they rebuild you to be a

32:13

machine, you know, a war machine, and that's what

32:15

the royal marines are. So I

32:17

guess your journey of masculinity is

32:20

like you've climbed Everest and you've

32:22

conquered that, and then you've got to step

32:24

back once you're out of the core and say,

32:26

right, well, who am I known? because

32:28

you've built me to be this

32:30

this weapon

32:31

of war. And no,

32:33

I'm in society. what do I do?

32:35

Where is I've got to become a caring father and

32:38

Yeah. Where is my personal masculinity

32:40

instead of, you know,

32:42

I don't know what III apologize, James. I

32:44

don't know whether you served in Afghanistan and, you know,

32:46

when he -- Yeah. -- well, there you go, you served and you

32:48

know what went on in Afghanistan. You've had first

32:51

time the experience of that. but

32:53

hang on a minute. You're doing your shopping in test

32:55

scores two years later and

32:57

Sands Brise. So,

32:58

you know, it's that's what

33:01

IIII And

33:03

then

33:03

there's also the guy Vernon who watches

33:05

those documentaries about the green berets. Right? Who

33:07

sat at home thinking Well, I'm not that of Exactly. So

33:09

what kind of bloke am I? Exactly. And

33:12

and I think it is it is a

33:14

very confusing space, isn't it?

33:16

So

33:16

I think there are some people who the

33:19

reason I joined the Royal

33:20

Marines because I was lost and like I you

33:22

know, I watched the film Blackhall Down looked

33:25

at that and my mentality was watching the war scenes

33:27

going, I want that's what I wanna

33:29

do. Like, I was twenty three years old.

33:31

When I left the royal marines and

33:33

I left to be a

33:35

dad and wanting to be home, but

33:37

the kids for three years

33:39

I hit the worst three years in my

33:41

life. And and that was because I didn't know

33:43

where I fit it in in society. Like

33:45

like exactly what you were both talking

33:47

about there in terms of where do I fit

33:49

in now? Like, you know, and it

33:51

and it It took me to the brink of suicide -- Mhmm. --

33:53

to to to that point. And

33:55

I had no purpose. I had

33:57

no drive. I didn't know who

33:59

I was. I was sergeant James

34:01

Boardman in a world that sergeant James

34:03

Boardman no longer belonged. It

34:05

wasn't needed. It wasn't needed. And

34:07

I found my purpose through entrepreneurship, and I've just evolved

34:09

into where we are right now. And I think

34:11

all of us are on our

34:13

own individual personal mission, whether

34:15

we're a male, or whether we're

34:17

a female. One of the

34:20

things that we each one of us need is

34:22

a is a meaningful purposeful. AYAY

34:25

Yeah. So at the end of the day, each one of us is entitled to

34:27

have a North Star to achieve. Yeah. And if

34:29

we can have that emotional connection to

34:32

understanding why we want that, so for me

34:34

to make an impact act on men.

34:36

So, like, if I can do that by making them

34:38

mentally, emotionally stronger, helping

34:40

them have control measures

34:43

in terms of fitting in society, being comfortable in

34:46

society, managing their time, their energy, their

34:48

focus, having a meaningful

34:50

purpose like that

34:52

drives the that makes them wake up every day and go, well, I just don't feel

34:54

like it. But remember the bigger picture,

34:56

it's Then then I don't think it matters

34:58

if you're a man

35:00

or woman. James has been fascinating

35:01

and brilliant having you on, an absolutely perfect guest

35:03

for for this podcast, and I think we'll have

35:05

to have you on again sometime. Thank you so

35:07

much, James.

35:09

Thank you. appreciate

35:15

it. Oh,

35:19

that was really interesting. Wasn't

35:20

it how so much of what James is talking

35:22

about? It's tied into what we've talked about today.

35:24

Yeah. Awesome. But it has been

35:26

it has been really great

35:28

chatting and I knew a beer. We haven't even discussed, and I really we are gonna do this

35:30

very quickly because I know you've got to go off and be

35:32

in Panto. But we are

35:34

gonna discuss very quickly. We just

35:36

splash together. Hey. We

35:38

did the show. It's

35:39

behind you. We did the show splash

35:42

together two seasons of it. And -- Yeah. -- because I

35:44

wanted to talk to you about the physical side of getting older

35:46

because you've kind of You've got fitter as you've

35:47

got older, I think, haven't you got more into fitness. I have

35:50

you. older. Yeah. And you your obsession when you were

35:52

younger was with putting on weight because you couldn't

35:54

retain any weight because you had this kind of

35:56

overactive metabolism most and very Yeah. It's

35:57

did show splash, and it was very hot in the

35:59

swimming pool where we had to film. And

36:02

you you were worried about looking sweating on the

36:04

telly, and I'll

36:06

never forget you dressed yourself in sanitary pads

36:08

underneath your shirt to try and absorb the

36:10

sweat. And we went back into our

36:12

trailers afterwards

36:14

and you were gutted because on Twitter, somebody accused you of looking like your fat

36:16

because of these sad sad sad sad sad sad sad sad sad

36:18

sad sad sad sad sad sad sad sad sad. I've spent all my life trying to

36:21

look bigger. And now I'm getting greedy

36:23

for me. Fuck. And it was

36:25

it was so funny obviously to wear a salary

36:27

part. I think he worked for a few weeks,

36:29

didn't a little better. Yeah. I I had I I made a

36:31

I made a t shirt, which went under my shirt,

36:33

which was was literally on the

36:35

underarm area was

36:38

just carefree or, you know, body fog.

36:40

Yeah. Under my arms to stop me

36:42

sweating because even though it's a nap

36:45

actual human thing to do when you're in a

36:47

swimming pool that's far too crazy. It

36:49

doesn't look great until it. And and there's

36:51

the stigma around all you look sweaty.

36:53

In fact, yeah, it's

36:54

good when people work. Exactly.

36:56

It's like I mean, it's

36:59

treating toxins. Yay. It's so

37:01

bizarre. I was just society like

37:03

things, natural things. Like, let me go back to the menopause.

37:05

You know, we're doing we're going we're doing circles

37:08

on this podcast.

37:10

You know, Oh, it's really

37:12

difficult to talk about something that

37:14

happens to us all. You know, we

37:16

all sweat, but yeah, it's sort of frowned upon

37:18

when you see someone on sell it with

37:20

a sweat. part. Alright. Why? It's

37:22

crazy. I usually ask my guess at

37:23

the end something along the lines

37:26

of whether they're hopeful,

37:28

happy, or but you've already told me

37:30

your eighty percent content.

37:31

Yeah. Eighty percent content. Yeah. Eighty percent

37:34

content. Yeah. You know,

37:36

III think I'm content

37:38

because I've I've not I've not

37:39

been given any of this. I've

37:42

worked for

37:42

it from from the moment. III

37:44

was running five jobs at fourteen because

37:47

when mom and dad said, look, you gotta go and get a job. There's

37:49

summer holidays. You know, your dad's crafting.

37:51

Mom was working. I think you're drawn to people

37:53

like that as well, aren't you? Yeah.

37:56

Definitely. Like, having someone who's a former

37:58

royal marine, I I can't tell you, Gavi, I

38:00

love the royal marines. I've been to Winston

38:02

several times, and every time you walk in

38:04

there, you feel inspired. and every time you

38:06

walk out of there, you feel like you could run

38:08

through a brick wall because

38:10

they they just what

38:12

they do is amazing. It's absolutely

38:14

unbelievable. No. No. No. No. And

38:16

and it's all because of work ethic. Yeah. You know, it's

38:18

all about that focus, that commitment, that

38:20

dedication of wanting something

38:22

and going about how you're gonna

38:24

achieve it. And as James said as well,

38:26

having a reason why, I think that's so

38:28

important and most of you with what

38:30

you're doing. Yeah. And then going back to contentment, you know, like what you

38:32

said it, and it's

38:34

really, really got me thinking. Yes. You can

38:36

be content.

38:38

Mhmm. You know what I mean? Of course you can because I think, this sounds

38:40

really, really soppy. But as long as

38:42

you're feeling that love and affection for

38:44

doors close to you, nothing else

38:47

matters. Nothing genuinely matters. Beautiful way to

38:49

end. Thank you, Vernon. I'm honored the

38:51

Wickham Swan from the ninth to

38:53

the thirty first December, I'm

38:55

playing Dan Didi in Cinderella. Excellent.

39:01

Thank you so much to Vernon, Candid,

39:04

Open, Funny, and he is

39:06

genuinely in Panto of the Wiccam Swan,

39:08

Savaya

39:08

tickets right now.

39:10

And thank you to James Baldwin. He's an ex royal marine.

39:12

And the way he talks about helping men

39:14

to find out how they can get out of

39:16

a rut, encouraging them to be more open

39:18

and vulnerable,

39:20

which will all lead to hopefully a new kind of definition

39:22

of masculinity, which encompasses all

39:24

of that and finding meaningful purpose seems

39:26

to make a lot of sense. Thank

39:29

you to rethink audio for producing and of

39:32

course to you as always for

39:33

listening. I'll see you

39:36

next

39:36

time.

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