0:00

You're listening to the monocle daily first broadcast

0:02

on the first of December twenty twenty two

0:04

on monocle twenty four.

0:05

India commences its presidency of

0:07

the g twenty Pakistan's Taliban

0:10

make a grim declaration of intent

0:12

and isn't possible to teach too

0:14

many languages. I'm Andrew Mueller,

0:16

the monocle daily starts now.

0:30

Hello, and welcome to the Monocle Daily coming

0:32

due from our studios here at Midori House in

0:34

London. I'm Andrew in My guests, Somnath

0:36

Batmobile, and Lynn O'Donnell will discuss

0:39

all the day's big stories. Plus, we'll have

0:41

Henry Re Sheridan's latest letter from New

0:43

York City. Stay tuned. All that and

0:45

more coming up right here on the monocle daily.

0:53

This is the Monocle daily. I'm Andrew Mueller,

0:55

and I am joined today by Sun Life Batmobile,

0:57

lecturer in media and development and international

1:00

journalism at SoS. And by Lynn

1:02

O'Donnell, columnist for foreign policy and

1:04

former AP and AFP carball

1:06

bureau chief. Hello to you both? Hello.

1:08

Hello. Lin, your your twenty four

1:10

hours too late had you been here this time

1:12

yesterday, you could have joined in the

1:15

obnoxious Australian nationalist

1:17

gloating at our vanquishing of the

1:19

Danes. as it was, I had to

1:21

do all the obnoxious Australian gloating

1:23

myself.

1:24

That's a pity because I'm very good at it.

1:26

Well,

1:28

was there anything you would like to say to our Danish

1:30

listeners?

1:31

Aussie Aussie Aussie.

1:32

Oh, you guys? IIII

1:35

do what? I I have been starting during

1:37

the current thing in Qatar by

1:40

asking our guests for their relative levels

1:43

of interest in the World Cup. Lynn,

1:45

aside from Australia's mighty

1:47

triumph over Denmark and our inevitable

1:50

crushing like bugs of Argentina

1:53

on Saturday, have you been taking much

1:55

interest?

1:57

This one leaves me a little bit cold,

1:59

I'm afraid.

1:59

The the lead

2:02

up to it, the number of people who were killed

2:04

building the stadiums their corruption,

2:06

the fifa, the

2:09

intern what's his name in Fantini's appalling

2:12

display of Kupress

2:14

at his press conference. All

2:16

of that has really put me off the last minute

2:19

alcohol ban. No.

2:22

I you know, and it's I I do

2:24

like mass hysteria events. I usually

2:26

get very much caught up

2:28

in the in the excite meant

2:30

I jump up and down in front of the TV with

2:32

the best of them. But this time,

2:34

no.

2:35

And and, Sondland, I appreciate that this

2:37

game is played with a sort of

2:39

largish white ball rather than a small

2:41

red one and that nobody hasn't bat

2:43

and there are no stumps in dogs. It doesn't being

2:45

as much as Exactly. So so you

2:48

you may find it somewhat bewildering,

2:50

but have you been paying any attention at all?

2:52

I have actually and this is because of my

2:54

eighty year old who goes to to school here and

2:56

has picked up such bad habits.

2:58

And I can't get him in there, get him to stop.

3:01

He's an Arsenal fan and is very, very

3:03

involved. So each evening, we do go through

3:05

all the games and who is one. So I've been

3:07

keeping because of him, especially

3:09

and we've been watching the England matches together.

3:12

he also follows Argentina because of Messi.

3:14

I know it'll be a very very difficult

3:16

affair for him. Oh, are you I feel

3:18

sorry for him. I know I know you you will

3:20

have some difficult parenting to do in

3:22

this Saturday. I think that'd be very dire. But but I

3:24

but I think the the young man can absorb

3:26

a valuable life lesson from this.

3:28

defeat their alright. defeat his character

3:30

building, and the Sungarus all respect

3:33

for them for the kind of position they took. before

3:35

the event, say no. I I I'm

3:37

with you. Fantastic. Good

3:39

to hear. And with support like that, how can

3:41

we possibly fail? But however,

3:43

on with the show and as of today

3:46

and until this time next year, India

3:48

holds the presidency of the g twenty.

3:50

the intergovernmental talking shop, which

3:52

includes nineteen economically significant

3:54

nations individually and the EU

3:56

collectively India's prime minister, Narendra

3:59

Modi, accepting the keys to the g twenty

4:01

from Indonesia's president, Joko Widodo

4:03

last month in Mali, said that

4:05

he would, quote, more or less,

4:07

make full use of this opportunity and

4:09

focus on global good world welfare

4:11

peace Unity sensitivity toward

4:13

the environment and sustainable development,

4:16

which will keep him busy, Sondland,

4:18

are you? I don't. Are

4:21

you holding your breath for

4:23

Narendra Modi to deliver all of the above

4:25

by this time next year? Yeah.

4:27

I I hope he starts at home. Uniti

4:30

environmental concerns, not selling of

4:32

the land to Adani and

4:35

the Reliance Group, all of that.

4:38

But action speaks louder than

4:40

words. Yeah. You know? And especially,

4:44

today's today's yesterday's

4:47

statement on Russia, you know,

4:49

and we have been going a gawk with it. And

4:51

I I really can't find anything to be

4:53

to latch onto. He's spoken about Uniti

4:55

and he's kind of there's a mild rebuke

4:58

of Russia. But

5:02

if you see how his government has behaved

5:05

in the past year or so,

5:07

the recent meetings between external

5:09

affairs ministers of both countries the

5:11

kind of shopping list Russia has sent and India

5:13

wants to indulge in the continuing

5:15

buying of cash. If he has

5:17

to show any leadership in the g twenty,

5:19

he has to take this seriously. This is I mean,

5:22

words are empty after a point. And

5:25

at the moment, I don't find anything

5:28

really hopeful about this. It's a big

5:30

word. Somebody has written a very good

5:32

speech probably from the Neherobian era. Right.

5:35

And, you know, well educated. But

5:37

we'll see. What comes out of it? Lynn,

5:40

do we have a clear sense yet

5:43

given that India has now

5:46

the thick end of ten months to make up its mind

5:48

about what it thinks about Russia's escapade

5:50

in Ukraine. Do do you understand where India

5:52

actually comes down on this?

5:54

i'm It

5:56

starts at home. I think there's

5:59

one point

5:59

five billion people in

6:02

India, and most of them are very poor.

6:04

And I you know, I'm

6:06

gonna name drop here. I interviewed

6:09

Imran Khan, the former prime minister of

6:11

Pakistan. a little while ago.

6:13

And I asked him these sort of questions. You

6:15

know, as a leader of a

6:17

big Muslim nation, he's never come out and

6:19

criticized China. because

6:21

of for the way it treats

6:23

Uighur Muslims, for instance, what America

6:25

calls the genocide against a million

6:28

Chinese Muslims. And

6:30

on the day that Russia invaded Ukraine,

6:34

Imran Khan got off a plane in Moscow and

6:36

said, golly, it's exciting, isn't it?

6:39

And and I asked him about it, why haven't

6:41

you criticized China? Pakistan

6:43

has very close economic and military

6:45

ties with China. He said,

6:47

Every everything that I say and every

6:50

policy that I make is

6:52

going to have an impact economically

6:54

on the people in my country. and they

6:56

are poor and they are vulnerable. And

6:59

I might think that the foreign

7:01

policy of a particular country is

7:03

wrong or misguided. but I

7:05

can't say that because of the

7:07

potential impact. And I think that Modi

7:10

finds himself in the same situation, buying

7:12

cheap oil, I, you know, I can't blame

7:14

him for that.

7:15

Well, what do you think, Sondland? Does

7:17

Modi have we've talked a lot in these

7:19

shows about Modi's over

7:22

nationalism in terms of domestic politics.

7:24

But does he have any real ambition

7:27

as some leaders do and some don't of

7:29

being any kind of figure on the world

7:31

stage. Oh, he definitely does. He wants

7:33

to leave a legacy. And I think he he's he

7:35

already knows he is. You know,

7:37

the

7:38

well, the largest

7:40

populated country has already ruled

7:42

it for, but

7:43

nearly eight six

7:45

years is probably going to get another term.

7:47

So and he's reshaped the

7:50

tragic tree of the country completely from

7:52

a pretty much a secular country

7:54

to something more

7:56

on a communal line in his his

8:00

forced us to rethink our

8:02

constitution almost, you know, and how

8:04

elections are held. how our majority

8:06

behaves. But I Inel

8:08

Lynch is coming back to the point which you

8:10

made with Pakistan and India. I I India's

8:13

economic position is different. There are four hundred

8:15

million people living below the poverty line. I

8:17

completely take that, but it's a bigger

8:20

country. And I think economic

8:22

decisions are there and

8:24

the cheap oil you mentioned is also there. But it's

8:26

a political will. of how

8:28

you you know, there are difficult decisions to

8:30

take, and ultimately, it

8:32

depends on the political will. And India

8:34

can withstand it has enough in

8:36

foreign reserves to withstand the

8:39

pressure. So ultimately,

8:41

it is what state

8:43

is deciding to do. Pakistan, I agree

8:45

with you. I mean, you know, and I'm very surprised

8:47

that Iran can make such a candidate

8:49

statements and kudos to you for getting that out of

8:51

him. Mhmm. It it's often I mean,

8:53

indeed so, but it's amazing how much more

8:55

candidate politicians become once they're not in

8:57

office. That's alright. That's that's that's helpful.

8:59

Well, I sorry. I thought he was

9:01

still there. Okay. Right. Right. But

9:04

Lynn, is there a I mean, I understand what you're

9:06

saying, and it's actually entirely Don't

9:08

under what Narendra Modi and Imran Khan

9:10

are thinking if that's what they're thinking just in

9:12

terms of pure pragmatism of getting

9:15

resources to my own poor people

9:17

who need it. But does their come a

9:19

point or might their come a point where

9:21

it becomes clear to Imran Khan

9:23

and Narendra Modi and anybody

9:25

else still on the fence on this,

9:27

that Putin is is is a

9:29

losing hand, and that at some point there

9:31

will be a comeback if you've been seen

9:33

to support him.

9:34

Well, I think that what you said Somnath

9:36

about what Modi

9:38

said about the war, he made it

9:40

very he made it very clear that he

9:42

is against potent

9:44

actions against Ukraine. And

9:47

he's made that clear, but he

9:49

still wants to have an

9:51

economic relationship.

9:53

Yeah. And that's I guess that's

9:55

pragmatism. He

9:56

right so,

9:58

yeah, you're right. He's trying to have it

9:59

both wise. Yeah. Tony Blair had a very interesting

10:02

phrase on this because he called it

10:04

pragmatic moral moralism -- Mhmm. --

10:06

in in in relation to Sierra Leone.

10:08

Mhmm. But just a final

10:10

quick thought on the Sondland, India's foreign

10:12

minister, Subraman Yam Joshanka,

10:14

visiting Moscow next week.

10:16

What would be the point of that? Do we assume that

10:18

he's going to take a seat at the end of Putin's

10:20

weird long table and try to persuade him to call

10:22

the whole thing off? Or Is

10:24

this India actually trying to leverage

10:26

Russia's need for friends? I

10:29

think it's a very It will

10:31

be much more economic if you have seen the

10:33

team that is going there. Mhmm.

10:35

He has officials submit from the

10:37

Ministry of Agriculture, Petroleum, Natural

10:40

Gas sports and shipping, finance, chemicals, and

10:42

fertilizers. So you see what is

10:44

going on. This is not this is not a placement. This

10:46

is not a piece mission at all. And also, this

10:48

is a fifth time this year. Mhmm. The

10:50

both parties are meetings in it. It's it's a

10:52

long relationship that they're talking about.

10:54

So I don't think I mean,

10:56

you know, there might be an official statement,

10:58

which comes and says, you know, lessen

11:00

the activities in Ukraine. But

11:02

this is not a peace building mission. This is

11:04

an economic for it.

11:06

And I think you also have to note that

11:08

the longer the war goes on, the greater the need

11:10

in Russia for what India has to

11:12

sell. Yeah. I mean, in fact, Reuters

11:14

has this report that, you know, Russia sent

11:16

a shopping list fourteen

11:18

pages -- Yeah. -- along to several

11:20

countries and India is one of them. Well,

11:23

let's take a look now at the country next

11:25

door because earlier this week almost as if

11:27

deciding that things in Pakistan were

11:29

just not chaotic and dangerous

11:31

Pakistan's Taliban varietal, the Turkey

11:34

Taliban, called off the

11:36

ceasefire they had agreed with Pakistan's

11:38

government in June Very shortly

11:40

afterwards, i. e. yesterday, the

11:42

TTP carried out a suicide bombing

11:44

in Qatar. Four people were killed

11:46

and twenty seven more injured. Several

11:48

police officers were among the casualties.

11:50

The target was a police truck on

11:52

its way to serve as a security

11:54

detail for medical workers delivering

11:57

polio vaccines. Lynn,

11:59

first of all, there I think there is

12:01

an amount of confusion caused by

12:03

referring to the TTP. and your

12:05

good friends in Afghanistan as the

12:07

Taliban. But is there

12:09

a relationship between them at

12:11

all? Or are they too

12:13

entirely separate to discrete

12:15

enterprises. No. A rose

12:17

by any other name. It's

12:19

still a rose. It's the same mob. I

12:21

think there was just AAA

12:23

convenience for them in

12:26

in, you know, deciding you you be the

12:28

Pakistan, Taliban, and will be the Afghanistan

12:31

lot. Since the

12:33

Afghan Taliban took over in

12:35

August last year. The

12:37

TGP has found safe

12:39

haven in Afghanistan, which is

12:41

quite ironic because the

12:43

Afghan Taliban had safe haven in

12:45

Pakistan for the twenty years of its

12:47

war. But what Afghanistan has

12:49

become is a

12:51

geopolitical containment, centrifugal,

12:56

a point for global j judicialism

12:58

and the TTP are now part

13:00

of that. and they've come back

13:02

to bite the the Pakistani

13:04

state. And this

13:06

declaration that the ceasefire was over

13:08

was really just a formality because

13:10

attacks have been going on and getting

13:12

bigger for the last few months

13:14

anyway. As long enough, this attack

13:16

in particular, do we have to consider

13:18

the depressing prospect of that the TTP

13:20

knew exactly what they were bombing and that they

13:22

were targeting polio workers at

13:24

one remove? seems to be, you know, a

13:26

bit of a targeting security person

13:28

and the killing of so many policemen

13:31

clearly shows that they have

13:34

very good information, which is troubling.

13:36

Look again, as Lynn says, this is

13:38

a mess of Pakistan's own make

13:40

making in a much as I sympathize with

13:42

what's going on there, the twenty years of

13:44

support they're provided to the Taliban

13:48

state weaponry, money, all that has

13:50

gone in, and now they're finding it certainly

13:52

difficult to real difficult

13:54

to accept that Taliban in

13:56

government is a very different beast

13:59

than when there were in opposition.

14:01

And one

14:05

of the things I think which the Pakistan

14:07

tried to – the Pakistan ability to try to

14:09

do in April this

14:11

year, the aerial bombing of

14:13

of Afghanistan, which they did, and

14:15

messed it up again with twenty children

14:17

were killed. Again, the action that lack

14:20

of intelligence, lack of proper

14:22

military operation techniques.

14:25

So I it's

14:28

messy. Also, they

14:30

find that they cannot push Thaliban

14:32

very hard because they have India

14:34

to think about India's presence in

14:36

Afghanistan. So it's a very, very

14:38

difficult situation, which the Pakistani

14:40

government finds itself in. Lynn,

14:42

is it possible to gauge roughly

14:44

the amount of popular support

14:46

the TTP might have in Pakistan?

14:49

And and the thing I think it's always worth

14:51

bearing in mind when you talk about stuff like this, where

14:53

Pakistan is concerned, is that it is an

14:55

enormous country. And frankly, even

14:57

if you have only one percent of it,

14:59

supporting an outfit like the TTP. That's

15:02

two point

15:02

two five million people, and that that would

15:04

be quite the problem. In

15:07

the last couple of months,

15:09

there have been enormous

15:11

demonstrations, spontaneous

15:14

demonstrations in the

15:16

towns and cities of kibapuk Tunhua

15:18

-- Mhmm. -- which is where

15:20

the TGP held sway for so

15:22

long. And people

15:24

there have made it very clear that they

15:26

do not want to return of

15:29

the reign of terror of the TTP.

15:32

and they are very also

15:34

very disappointed that the government and

15:36

the military are not ensuring

15:39

that there is no return of the

15:41

TTP. So the people are being let

15:43

down. Millions of them were displaced over

15:45

the decade that the TTP were there,

15:47

many were killed. schools

15:50

where girls couldn't go to school, women weren't seen

15:52

on this, you know, the whole Taliban landscape

15:55

prevailed. They don't want to return to that, and

15:57

they're making it clear.

15:58

Just a final quick thought on this, so,

16:00

Jonathan, this this may be a self answering

16:02

question. But is there any indication

16:04

that the the Pakistani state,

16:07

whoever is in charge of it from

16:09

one month to the next, has any

16:11

capacity to deal with an

16:13

organization like the TTP. Well,

16:15

I mean, as I said, they were finding it extremely

16:17

difficult because of the

16:19

support, Taliban gives them the poorest border

16:21

between -- Mhmm. -- of Afghanistan and

16:23

Pakistan. and

16:25

how

16:26

embedded I mean, in and the

16:29

Pakistani state has been real

16:31

ISI. the establishment has worked

16:33

very closely with the Taliban. I mean, it's very

16:35

difficult sometimes to even differentiate

16:37

at times. between

16:39

Taliban and the TTP because they're all part

16:41

of the same establishment, which

16:43

the Pakistani state supported. So

16:46

politically, they find

16:48

their hands tied because

16:50

of Taliban and this and what India

16:52

might do in Afghanistan and how much they might

16:54

push. Also,

16:58

because of this long relationship, disentangling

17:00

is a difficult act.

17:02

Well, what

17:03

does it make sense? What I It

17:05

does make an amount of sense for as much as

17:07

this is ever likely to. Actually, Lin, I'll

17:10

put a variation on on the question

17:12

to you. I mean, Is

17:13

it clear what the TTP want?

17:16

Are they pursuing some sort of achievable

17:18

or even negotiable end?

17:20

Or are they one of those, and

17:22

they do exist higher some gangs of fanatics

17:25

who really haven't thought it through much beyond

17:27

blowing things up and causing trouble. I

17:28

think they want what the Taliban want.

17:31

They they want to overthrow the

17:33

Pakistani state and replace it with

17:36

an extremist

17:38

what law lawless and

17:41

sharing stories with what they have asked.

17:43

govern state. And they

17:46

have seen that this has been successfully

17:48

achieved in Afghanistan. So

17:51

why not try it? But, you know, they were pushed

17:53

out of of

17:55

Pakistan into Afghanistan in twenty

17:57

fourteen. You might remember that terrible

18:00

attack on the military school

18:02

in Broward. when, you know, a hundred

18:04

and thirty kitties were among a hundred and

18:06

forty dead. And so the

18:08

military retaliated and

18:10

did get them out of Pakistan for a while. But now

18:13

they are emboldened like

18:15

jihadists everywhere by the

18:17

Taliban victory in Afghanistan.

18:19

Well, let's move along and look at a

18:21

question of language and nobody, at

18:24

least nobody saying disputes that it is

18:26

good for children to learn

18:28

other languages. There is often however considerable and

18:30

anguished argument over what other

18:32

languages children should learn.

18:34

Nigeria plans to teach

18:36

school kids in local languages, of which

18:38

Nigeria has hundreds. Instead

18:40

of Nigeria's official language,

18:43

English, Hence fourth primary school will be

18:45

taught in the local language, and

18:47

we may now look forward to impassioned

18:49

disputes across the country about

18:51

what the local language actually

18:53

is. Sophie's monahancombs

18:55

has more. A new

18:58

Nigerian

18:58

government policy aimed at the nation's

19:00

primary schools will promote teaching in local

19:03

languages rather than English.

19:05

The national language policy stipulates

19:07

that instructions of peoples in their first

19:09

sick years of schooling will now be in their

19:11

mother tongue. As English is

19:14

Nigeria's official language and used as the

19:16

common language of teaching, implementing

19:18

the policy will prove difficult in a country

19:20

where more than five hundred languages

19:22

are spoken. Despite the challenges,

19:25

Nigeria

19:25

is not first West African nation to

19:27

promote local languages over those that

19:29

were implemented because of colonization.

19:32

In Mali, drafts of

19:33

a new tuition call for changes to the country's languages.

19:36

While

19:36

thirteen local languages have national

19:39

status, only French has the distinction

19:41

of being an official language. using

19:43

government business on road signs and in

19:46

broadcast. It's clear that the languages

19:48

spoken across the African continent have a

19:50

resonance that goes beyond words.

19:53

So

19:53

if you mind a

19:55

handcoons there. Sonna, if

19:57

I'm genuinely not sure what I

20:00

think about this. On the one hand, I do think it is it

20:02

is good for kids to

20:04

learn more than one language at school, and I

20:06

have spoken from this chair before about my

20:08

lingering resentment of the fact that I was

20:10

raised on a Monocle island

20:12

where we're basically taught that if you just go overseas

20:14

and shout at people in English, That'll

20:16

work out fine. But this

20:18

in Nigeria of all places, you

20:21

can see this causing at least as many

20:23

problems as it's solved, not

20:25

least how do you decide which

20:27

is the local language when you have

20:29

upwards of five hundred to choose from?

20:31

I don't know where to

20:33

start with this. being coming from

20:35

India where there are over two thousand dialects and

20:38

twenty eight official languages. Indeed. So and

20:40

yet you and you have similar

20:42

thing, I guess, you do have this unifying or

20:44

a unifying language, albeit one

20:46

imposed upon you or introduced by

20:49

the colonizer. influenced is the right word.

20:51

You know, what we have done to the English

20:53

language is a different story

20:55

altogether and, you know, all over

20:57

the world, more people speak bad

20:59

English today than

21:01

what we do here. But this

21:03

is something Australia and India have

21:06

in common. I'm glad you're joining hands

21:08

somewhere. But I'll I'll go

21:10

back to a story I mean, a

21:12

personal story to kind of

21:14

enumerate what he is saying. in Calcutta, though

21:16

I was in from a Sam, all my

21:18

cousins suddenly were told in

21:20

school that English would be pulled back

21:22

and they would be taught in Bengali. and

21:24

English should be introduced in seven or

21:26

eight standard. And the drop

21:29

they had in their ten standard

21:31

board exams, the results. was

21:33

remarkable and entire generation

21:36

suffered this in

21:38

jobs, in competitive exams, which were

21:40

all in English. So Nigeria needs to be

21:42

very careful of what they're

21:44

doing. In India, we

21:46

I mean, at least in schools like

21:48

ours, which was not private,

21:50

had English and also Bingoldi, SMEs,

21:52

or Hindi. When I speak four languages, you

21:54

know, I wish they were European languages. But

21:59

So that was a way to solve it, and Nigeria

22:01

also has a tremendous victory.

22:04

No. No. No. No. I'm sorry. She knew a woman that

22:06

she has written Rheem's of

22:08

the this as has Tsimamanda, and

22:11

they have a very strong literary tradition.

22:13

They have a very strong visual culture, Hollywood

22:16

brings out fantastic films.

22:18

I I mean, there's a question of

22:20

decarbonization here, definitely. And it is

22:22

embedded. And I

22:24

think rather than throwing out a language or

22:26

not teaching kids, the way to do it

22:28

perhaps is to bring out

22:30

more local stories, local traditions,

22:33

and converse I mean, English is

22:35

need not necessarily be taken as an

22:37

imposition anymore. We have done too much with

22:39

the language to think of it as a

22:41

colonizes language today. I mean,

22:45

Lynn, should the question be, especially when you're

22:47

talking about the language in which primary school

22:49

age children would will be

22:51

should the question be nice though it is to preserve

22:53

local languages and important though it

22:55

is to preserve local languages?

22:58

shouldn't the argument be a more utilitarian one?

23:00

What's actually going to be useful

23:02

for them later on? Oh,

23:04

yes. I completely agree.

23:06

and your point, Sumith, about how it's We're

23:09

beyond colonization now.

23:11

English shouldn't be associated with

23:14

a painful history. It's a tool,

23:16

and it's a tool for

23:18

a broader life and

23:20

greater opportunities. I

23:23

think you know, local language is extremely important

23:25

so that people know and understand

23:27

and are connected to their own

23:30

culture and history and

23:32

background and family. But being able

23:34

to be part of the world in the world that we're

23:36

living in is as important.

23:38

I mean, there's the point

23:40

you both raised is an is an important one.

23:42

The numb I mean, countless countries around

23:44

the world, which have had English imposed

23:47

on them or introduced to

23:49

it and have very much made it

23:51

their own and done their own thing with it. There

23:53

is the variety of Irish overisms

23:56

to the extent that we

23:58

we took the language they bought here and fixed it

24:00

for them or or improved on it, and they're

24:03

perfectly entitled to make that

24:05

boost. Is there do you think here

24:07

an element of just you

24:09

don't lose votes by beating up

24:11

on the colonial legacy or the

24:13

former coloniser? Is this

24:16

there's an amount of nationals' populism going on here,

24:18

isn't there? Oh, absolutely. And and

24:20

Nigeria has had a strain of this since the

24:22

nineteen sixties has had and and I know India

24:24

has this, you know, constantly change

24:27

names of cities and places and

24:29

and, you know, what

24:31

we call, secularization.

24:34

I can't even get that word.

24:36

For macularization, that's it. That's

24:38

the word. And I

24:40

mean, there's this form of nativism, which really

24:43

doesn't help anyone, you know, and

24:45

especially not kids who

24:47

are going to government schools I

24:49

know the the strata and in Nigeria and

24:51

in yeah. There's more impoverished

24:53

than people who can go to send their kids

24:55

to private school where they'll be English educated.

24:58

and then the difference becomes much more in later life.

25:00

So that's the problem which I have

25:02

seen in India, in

25:04

all the states. where

25:07

governments imposed local

25:09

languages instead of English, there

25:11

was a definite drop

25:13

in prosperity levels. Lynne, what

25:15

do you think? Is this one of those things

25:17

which is going to end up likely being

25:20

more exclusionary than

25:22

inclusive? I

25:23

don't really know. I I think that

25:26

as if there if it is a case

25:28

of teaching both languages at the

25:30

same time, I mean, we've all met

25:32

people who English isn't

25:34

their native language, but they speak it as

25:36

if it is because they were taught from

25:38

a very young age at school.

25:39

Well, this is where I've frequently been

25:41

envious of people I've met while reporting from West

25:44

Africa, people who like some that speak

25:46

four languages and indeed many more and don't

25:48

think there's anything even remarkable about

25:50

that because everybody he does.

25:52

Yeah. But they also speak

25:53

English. But then you have that

25:56

many more tools of communication. Mhmm.

25:58

And and I think that that's enviable

26:00

and

26:00

very important. I mean, III would

26:03

think that instead of imposing

26:05

local languages in school as a

26:07

medium of instruction, just encouraging

26:10

vernacular languages and

26:12

poetry and reading sessions and

26:14

films. That would be the way to, you

26:16

know, inculcate any

26:19

I mean, if nationalist or patriotic

26:21

sentiments, if that is what

26:23

the politicians are going for, that would be

26:25

a much better way to talk about than

26:28

saying no more English. Well, let's look now

26:30

at what may be bad news for those of

26:32

us who have for many happy years supplemented

26:35

our bathroom supplies by

26:37

per line per lining. In fact, as much as we

26:39

could carry from whatever hotel room in

26:41

which we had been ensconced. The

26:43

EU for those guys again is

26:45

about to crack down hard on a variety of plastic

26:48

packaging, including hotel toiletries, fruit and

26:50

vegetable wrapping at Al.

26:52

The overarching idea is to nudge businesses towards

26:54

the reusable rather than the

26:56

merely recyclable. It is apparently often

26:58

the case that the energy consumed by

27:01

recycling something exceeds the energy

27:04

saved by recycling it. It's

27:06

a happy thought. Are

27:08

we enthused Lin by this

27:11

even if it might mean that we start having to

27:13

and I'm glad you both sitting down for this.

27:15

Take our own shampoo with us.

27:18

I know. It's an it's an it's

27:20

an appalling thought. But then

27:21

what you have to do is go and buy a

27:23

smaller bottle to decant it in. So so

27:26

you can carry it with you. I

27:28

I was reading about this today

27:30

and I noticed that there has been a

27:33

backlash. And I

27:35

I by producers.

27:37

And I think that -- Mhmm. --

27:39

this has to be consumer led. And there

27:41

is already, I think, an awareness, a

27:44

growing awareness amongst consumers of

27:47

waste and the

27:49

the damage that

27:52

plastic waste imposes on

27:55

the planet and our lives and our futures.

27:58

And so I think I

28:00

think anyone who is not

28:02

already on board with this. It's

28:04

just got to get with the program. This is

28:06

the future.

28:06

Yeah. Sondland, what do you

28:09

think? Because there have been examples I

28:11

can think of in which

28:13

really determined crackdowns have

28:15

been remarkably effective. The the

28:17

outlawing or implementing

28:19

of policies to dissuade people

28:21

from plastic bags, for example, has made

28:23

a a huge and very visible differences in

28:25

some places. I there are some

28:27

countries I've been to where the first time I went there,

28:30

plastic bags were in fact the distinguishing

28:32

feature of the landscape, and now

28:34

you barely see any. Yeah.

28:36

No. I mean, I think this is the only time in

28:38

the evening. I'll disagree with

28:40

you. I don't think it can be consumer

28:42

led. Consumers go for the

28:44

easiest option. if there is something easily

28:46

available, we just think, oh, it's one more time.

28:48

And I I would rather say

28:50

that the state coming down

28:52

very heavily would be the only way

28:54

we can think about twenty

28:56

fifty targets, which we have

28:58

we're trying to set. So

29:00

sorry about that. I'd rather

29:02

disagree with you. I mean, the

29:04

figures in that report, which probably both of

29:06

us read, we generate hundred and

29:08

eighty kilos of paper and cardboard

29:10

waste per person in the EU. That's

29:13

insane. Mhmm. And, you know, all these deliveries, which

29:15

Amazon and most COVID, has

29:17

happened. It's just because we don't need four it's

29:20

like a Russian doll I'm trying to take in

29:22

every every time. So we

29:24

are consumers. We know this is bad. I mean, III

29:27

God, I teach a course in environmental

29:31

law. And despite that,

29:33

I still order Amazon. So so yes.

29:35

But if the state does impose it and

29:37

I have to abide by it, I'll definitely do.

29:39

So I think it's a good step. But again, the

29:41

way the producers will react, the way the

29:43

marketing and branding and

29:45

people and companies are

29:48

reacting, NGLs are already complaining

29:50

about being being watered down. Then this

29:52

has to go through the EU Parliament. Then

29:55

nation states, it's a long way

29:57

off. It's a mild first

29:59

step. The conversation has started again.

30:01

I hope something comes out of it. III

30:03

you know, there are bar soaps which I can

30:05

use as shampoos. they are made,

30:07

and they can be kept in hotel rooms, and

30:10

that bigger toothpaste can be kept.

30:12

And all of us can use some one

30:14

tailor. So, yes, I'm I'm I'm I'm happy to not

30:16

boil oil shampoo bottles. Because

30:18

there is an issue there though, I think, subsidiary

30:20

to that as Roland, which is that

30:23

I think it's quite common for people. I'm sure I'm

30:25

guilty of this myself to think, well, I

30:27

I diligently put all my plastic

30:29

and glass and cardboard

30:31

stuff in this thing, which I can't out to the bin out

30:33

the front once a week, I've done my

30:36

bit. Mhmm. But it's it's not really

30:38

enough. Is it especially when

30:40

as these reports rather so bringly

30:43

note, it possibly does actually consume more

30:45

energy than you've saved to recycle the stuff that

30:47

you're

30:47

recycling. Yeah. I

30:50

have noticed over the past few years

30:52

that the supermarket's charging for bags has

30:54

meant that a lot of people are now carrying their

30:56

own bags for instance. I mean, III

30:57

used to be quite lazy with that,

31:00

and I I have now got much better at it.

31:02

I do take my own bag. But

31:03

then, you know, Japan is

31:06

famous for its recycling. Everything is

31:08

washed and separated down to

31:10

the, you know, minutia

31:13

level. but Japanese

31:15

products are wrapped and wrapped and wrapped and it can

31:17

take you ten minutes to get to the

31:19

sweet inside the bag, inside the bag

31:21

because it all looks gorgeous. and

31:23

and that all then is recycled.

31:25

So, yeah, I think that it has to

31:27

be thought out. Every everything

31:29

has to be much more. It's not one simple

31:32

solution. Pay, you know, five cents

31:34

or five p for a

31:36

bag or you

31:39

know, it just has to be broader

31:41

and deeper than

31:43

you reach the cost of your recycling or

31:45

how much energy you know,

31:47

it takes up. I did want to finish by asking you each

31:49

if there is one particular form

31:52

of packaging that vexes you

31:54

or that you've strike unnecessarily

31:57

wasteful and to to get the ball rolling, I

31:59

will

31:59

I'm going to

32:00

admit that this may be one of

32:02

those stories that we journalists refer

32:05

to as too good to check, but a friend of mine

32:07

nonetheless swears blind. He saw

32:09

this in a motorway servicer station

32:11

somewhere in the United Kingdom. Orange

32:14

is individually wrapped

32:16

in a cardboard sleeve

32:18

on which was printed the words

32:20

citrus snack solution. which

32:26

branding fellow does kind of that.

32:28

I think the the obvious waste there

32:30

being that oranges kind of

32:32

arrived prepackage. That's the

32:34

end. But is there anything like that

32:36

that whenever you find yourself grappling with it, you

32:38

just find yourself thinking what are we doing?

32:42

when

32:42

I was living in Hong Kong, fruit was

32:44

in individually wrapped in the supermarkets.

32:46

I find that almost criminal

32:48

I used to

32:50

get annoyed with those flimsy

32:52

plastic wrappers that records would come in,

32:54

in the days that we, you know, we

32:56

would get records. But I'm with

32:59

you on the on Amazon. I

33:01

don't order Amazon. I don't

33:03

use it for a lot of reasons

33:06

on principle. because of the nature of the company.

33:08

But opening a box

33:10

that is then filled with plastic to

33:12

get a very small item

33:14

that is then wrapped in other

33:16

Yeah.

33:16

And doesn't juggle around. Yeah. Yeah. I I

33:18

and

33:18

those beads, those

33:21

polystyrene beads, I find that

33:23

really offensive. Yeah. So

33:25

that's my thing. Saunders?

33:27

My

33:27

mother was shocked when she came

33:29

to first time to the UK and I took her to a

33:31

supermarket waitrose that cucumbers came

33:34

wrapped in plastic.

33:36

And she said, oh, it's so clean.

33:38

Yeah. Like, well, there's a cost. But

33:40

yeah. It's shocking. What how

33:42

we sell fruits, vegetables. There's no

33:44

need to do this. And I mean, this the point being

33:46

that this is this was not the way thirty,

33:48

forty, fifty years back. This is we

33:50

have developed a system. We can crack out of

33:52

it. We need a strong hand. I'm

33:54

sorry to say again that this this has to be

33:57

state led. We have to be forced out of

33:59

our bad habits. Son

34:01

Math Math Math Biel and Lionel Donald. Thank you both for joining

34:03

us finally on today's show. It is time for

34:05

our regular letter from New York City. Here is

34:07

Henry Re Sheridan. Gwen

34:10

Stefani. Elicia Keys. What do

34:12

you associate with these names?

34:14

For me, they recall

34:17

a specific era from

34:20

two thousand and four to two thousand and ten.

34:23

During this period, Gwen

34:25

Stephanie was enjoying a

34:27

successful solo career following the dissolution of her

34:29

band. No doubt.

34:43

of

34:47

Stifani's identity as a performer her four Japanese

34:49

backup dancers, the

34:52

Harajuku girls. Stephanie,

34:54

a white American, referred to

34:56

them as her imaginary friends. You

35:00

couldn't get away with that kind of

35:02

thing. Nowadays, back

35:04

in two thousand and four,

35:06

people were absolutely gagging

35:10

for it. Alisha Keys

35:12

was enjoying the peak of her

35:14

career as a musician and

35:16

entertainer. This culminated in

35:18

her two thousand and nine collaboration

35:20

with JZ, the massive

35:22

international hit. Empire state

35:24

of America.

35:32

Since

35:32

then, Stephane and Keys

35:34

have gradually drifted away from the

35:36

center of a cultural firmament towards

35:39

its periphery. Judging from

35:42

a cursory scan of their

35:44

Wikipedia pages, they both seem to

35:46

have managed their relative declines gracefully.

35:48

No really sticky scandals,

35:50

plenty of philanthropy. Stephane

35:53

is a judge on

35:55

the TV performance game show, The

35:58

Voice. Keys

35:59

continues to release music and maintains

36:02

a robust stable, a

36:04

brand collaboration They remain

36:08

popular that the average American

36:10

probably doesn't think of them very often

36:12

if ever. they are well

36:14

placed to execute one of the most

36:16

highly specialized roles in

36:18

US society. And that's

36:21

to perform at the lighting of the Rockefeller Center

36:23

Christmas tree in New York, which

36:25

they did this

36:28

Wednesday.

36:30

There is a social convention

36:32

that obtains throughout the

36:34

western world. No matter

36:37

the size and location, of

36:39

the village, town, or city.

36:42

Those selected to ceremonially

36:44

light municipal Christmas trees

36:46

have to be B list celebrities

36:48

within the local social hierarchy.

36:50

The size

36:51

and prestige of New

36:53

York City means it's B listers

36:55

are quite famous and

36:58

rated, but make no

37:00

mistake. Entertainment at the

37:02

peak of their careers would rather

37:04

be maimed than to form the

37:06

lighting of the Rockefeller Center

37:08

Christmas tree.

37:09

Why is this

37:12

the case? In

37:12

part, it's because the performers at Christmas tree lightings have

37:14

to appeal to the broadest possible

37:18

audience. Celebrities who can

37:20

do this and not usually at the

37:22

most potent stage of their careers,

37:24

which is normally when they're most

37:26

appealing to the youth and most

37:28

unsettling to older generations. but

37:30

it's not just that. Celebrities

37:32

who perform at the Super Bowl

37:35

halftime show also have to have

37:37

very broad appeal. But they are almost always

37:38

in the top tier of the US

37:42

entertainment hierarchy. There's

37:44

something more to why we don't allow our best and

37:47

brightest to perform at the

37:49

lighting of public Christmas trees.

37:51

And I think it

37:53

has with the tree itself.

37:56

The municipal Christmas tree is a double

37:59

perversion. The

38:00

first layer of perversion applies

38:02

to every Christmas tree. A tree is meant to be

38:04

outdoors. Everyone knows that. But to

38:07

make a tree a Christmas tree, we

38:09

have to bring it indoors. The

38:12

second layer of

38:13

perversion is particular to most Christmas trees

38:15

in public places. It's

38:18

that we take

38:20

a Christmas tree, an outdoor object we've confusingly

38:22

decided to put indoors and

38:24

then put it outdoors again so

38:26

everyone

38:27

can see it. It's like domesticating

38:29

the world for thousands of years until we

38:31

have the show dog, then removing the

38:33

show dog directly from

38:35

the Croft's arena, setting it

38:37

back among the pack of wolves and expecting

38:40

everything to be chill.

38:42

This double

38:43

switch yaru makes a public Christmas

38:45

tree an oddly suspicious. and

38:47

tainted object. It's

38:49

necessary as a visible

38:51

public marker of the festive season.

38:53

We have to honor it.

38:55

but we also can't afford to let our most

38:58

valuable talent get too close to

39:00

it. Hence, the

39:03

B list Christmas tree lighting

39:06

performer. I'm not trying to

39:08

denigrate keys, Stephanie or

39:10

anyone else involved in the lighting of public

39:12

Christmas trees across the

39:14

world. Like the technicians

39:16

who dissolve fatbags in sewage

39:18

systems, they should be lauded

39:20

for executing and unpalatable

39:22

but essential social function.

39:25

That was

39:27

our

39:27

New York radio correspondent

39:30

Henry Re Sheridan and reciting a

39:32

radio script while playing the Glockenspiel is

39:34

not as easy as Henry makes it look

39:36

But he's all for this edition of The Monocle Daily. Thanks to our panelist today,

39:38

Lenovo Donald and Sun Life Batmobile. Today's

39:40

show was produced by Lily in Force

39:43

and researched by Emily Sands. Our sound engineer was

39:45

Adam Heaton. I'm Andrew Mueller here in London. The

39:47

Daily Returns at the same time tomorrow. Thanks

39:50

for listening.