0:00

listening to the monocle daily first broadcast

0:02

on the seventeenth of November twenty twenty two

0:04

or monocle twenty

0:05

four. The UK is chancellor of the checker

0:07

issues a fiscal statement aimed at cleaning

0:09

up the previous fiscal statement by the

0:11

previous chancellor. China's softball,

0:14

stealthy stepping away from Russia

0:16

accelerates and does it really

0:18

matter what language a French

0:20

tourism poster is in. I'm Andrew

0:22

Mueller. The monocle daily starts now.

0:36

Hello, and welcome to the monocle daily coming

0:38

to from our studios here at Midori House in

0:40

London by Andrew Mueller. My guests, Marie

0:42

LeComte and John Eberhard will discuss all

0:45

the day's big stories and will have Henry

0:47

Re Sheridan's latest letter from New

0:49

York City. Stay tuned. All that and more

0:51

coming up right here on the monocle daily.

0:59

This is the monocle daily, I'm Andrew Mueller,

1:01

and I'm joined today by the political journalist,

1:03

and Arthur Marie Leconte, and by John Eifferard,

1:05

former British ambassador to Belarus,

1:07

Uruguay, and North Korea. Marie

1:10

and John welcome to the show. Hello. Okay.

1:12

Marie, I think we're still in the window

1:15

whereby we are allowed to

1:17

allow you to use the light introductory

1:19

banter window at the top of the show to shamelessly

1:22

your latest publication.

1:23

Thank you. I mean, it's been so long even I'm bored of

1:25

it. That's fine. My latest book escape

1:27

how generation, shape, destroyed, and survived

1:30

the internet is out in all good book shops

1:32

and has been reviewed you know, well by

1:34

most people.

1:34

Even including, I can

1:36

say, by myself in the latest

1:38

edition of New Humanist Magazine. John,

1:41

would you like to contribute to this shameless

1:43

media elite log rolling by reminding everybody

1:46

as we come towards Christmas that you do have

1:48

a title I think still available for purchase.

1:50

Still available Only beautiful, please. The

1:53

definitive book on North Korea, which

1:55

has been abused for some time now.

1:59

I I have also read that. I did not

2:01

have a chance to review it for anybody, but listeners,

2:03

I can recommend both of those books.

2:05

If you have any relatives, for

2:07

example, who are morbidly interested

2:09

in both North Korea and online

2:11

culture. And, you know, there's

2:14

there's some overlap there. Anyway,

2:16

there's a couple of recommendations. We

2:18

will start tonight show proper in the Netherlands

2:20

where a court has returned verdict.

2:22

in a case brought against three Russian citizens

2:25

and one Ukrainian. Over the two thousand

2:27

and fourteen shooting down of Airlines

2:29

flight MH seventeen, by Russian

2:32

backed militias waging Russia's first incursion

2:34

into Ukraine. Two hundred ninety eight

2:36

people were killed, one hundred and ninety six

2:38

of them Dutch nationals. The Boeing

2:40

triple seven had departed Amsterdam bound

2:43

for Kuala Lumpur. One joined with the

2:45

latest by Dani Kemp, AFP Bureau

2:47

Chief in the Hague, Danny,

2:49

first of all, to the verdict, what has the

2:51

court decided?

2:52

The court decided today

2:55

that three of the

2:57

suspects who were on trial were

2:59

indeed guilty. They

3:01

were found guilty of the murder

3:03

of all two hundred ninety eight people

3:05

onboard Flight MH seventeen and

3:08

also guilty of the intentional

3:11

shooting down of

3:13

the aircraft using a

3:16

missile supplied by

3:18

Russia. They did, however, acquits one

3:20

of the suspects, a Russian who

3:22

is a sort of more subordinate member

3:26

of the the separatist forces they

3:28

were fighting in Eastern Ukraine at

3:30

the time. They were all

3:32

other three people who found guilty were also

3:35

sentenced to life imprisonment.

3:37

However, they will probably never

3:39

serve those sentences because all

3:41

of them remain at large.

3:44

They've never turned up for

3:46

any of the trial. Russia refused to extradite

3:48

them as well. Donny, you quite rightly

3:50

point out that there is almost as things

3:52

stand zero chance of any of these three

3:54

men serving any time whatsoever over

3:57

this. But does this verdict nevertheless

3:59

potentially

3:59

open up any other? legal

4:02

avenues for the families of the victims.

4:05

Well, in I mean, in one case

4:07

for for one thing, though, the court also awarded

4:09

them compensation. But there, you

4:11

know, there are a number of other legal

4:14

cases that are under

4:16

way There's one in a

4:19

European Rights Court against

4:21

Russia on on

4:23

MH-seventeen, which is obviously going

4:25

to be able to take in to

4:27

account the Dutch the Dutch court's

4:29

ruling. A lot of it there is more

4:31

symbolic you know, I mean, we've spoken to some of

4:33

the the relatives relatives

4:35

of the of the victims of of m

4:37

h seventeen. And

4:39

for them, you know, they were just very keen

4:41

to see to see justice done.

4:44

They said that while, you know, you could

4:46

never really talk of closure for such a

4:48

thing as this. If you've lost relatives, if you've

4:50

lost children, you can at

4:52

least, you

4:52

know, feel some sort of, yes,

4:55

some some sense that justice has done and that,

4:57

you know, that that that

4:59

people have been bought bought to account to this

5:01

and, you know, to some extent, the Russia has been

5:03

brought to account to this. Like, how

5:05

consuming the story has this been in

5:07

the Netherlands over over the last eight years

5:09

because it is well, one

5:11

of the subplots of it is the the

5:13

the murder in one fell swoop of a hundred

5:15

and ninety six Dutch citizens. Well,

5:17

exactly, you know, I mean, it's it has

5:20

been compared to to the the

5:22

Netherlands nine eleven in a way, you know, I mean,

5:24

this is a pretty small country seventeen

5:26

million people, but more than that has a

5:28

small country mentality. Everyone is,

5:30

you know, it's very, very neighborly country.

5:33

And, you know, when when

5:35

MX seventeen was shot down, they knew the

5:37

country was really, really punished

5:39

into mourning, absolutely horrified,

5:41

absolutely absolutely shocked a lot of,

5:43

you know, everyone seemed to know someone or

5:45

the family who'd been affected. So

5:48

this was a real

5:50

kind of star on the whole country,

5:52

one that has, you know, turned

5:55

the Dutch views

5:57

against Russia over

5:59

the last few years. We've seen another a

6:01

number of other spy scandals

6:03

involving Russians in the Netherlands

6:05

in recent years. So relations are

6:07

pretty

6:07

the are

6:08

pretty flawed because of that because

6:10

of all that. So yeah. I mean, it's

6:13

it it was a it was a huge a

6:15

huge national scar on the car and national

6:17

psyche in today's verdict has been

6:19

very keenly weighted, very keenly

6:21

watched, and has been being

6:23

welcomed here. The verdict is,

6:25

of course, delivered at a time

6:27

when pretty much all of Europe's

6:29

relations with Russia are fraught

6:31

for the obvious reasons. That

6:33

being the case, has there been any

6:35

official reaction from the Dutch

6:37

government to these verdicts?

6:39

Yeah. I mean, the the Dutch prime

6:41

minister, Mark Rutte, said it's, you know,

6:43

an important step for justice. He's

6:46

that statement was actually rather

6:50

low key. I think,

6:52

you know, they they he may be

6:54

suspected there'd be some kind of appeal by the

6:56

suspect, although

6:59

we're not sure that's gonna be gonna be

7:01

the case. But, you know, I think he wanted to

7:03

stay away from any kind of triumphalism and

7:06

was more focused on the fact that, you know, he

7:08

hopes this can bring some kind of peace if

7:10

not you know, if if not closure to

7:13

to to the families and the victims. But

7:15

we've also seen the Dutch the Dutch royal

7:18

family even reacting to this, which

7:20

again is a measure of how, you know,

7:22

how deeply this this

7:25

cut cut into the Dutch national

7:27

psyche. But yeah.

7:29

I mean, certainly, the, you know, the Dutch the Dutch

7:31

political reaction has been if anything

7:33

a little muted at the moment, we've actually

7:35

seen you know, stronger reactions

7:37

from Ukraine, saying it's an, you know,

7:39

an important step, a NATO saying

7:41

similar and also from the US. Dani

7:44

Kemp with AFP in the Hague. Thank

7:46

you for joining us. Well, we will

7:48

bring John and Murray back

7:50

in now and move along to domestic

7:53

political concerns here in the UK

7:55

where a major fiscal statement by

7:57

the chancellor of the exchequer has not.

7:59

tanked the pound, created the markets,

8:01

and doomed the prime minister. And so

8:03

for those reasons alone must be reckoned an

8:05

improvement on the previous subset piece.

8:08

Jeremy Hunt announced measures including a

8:10

bit of a whack at highest earners

8:12

and increased windfall tax on energy

8:14

firms and a decentish hike in the minimum

8:16

wage and pensions and benefits.

8:18

But before anyone started wondering if

8:20

Hunt had forgotten which party he was in,

8:23

he also foreshadowed cuts, including

8:25

those in support for soaring

8:27

energy bills. John,

8:29

first of all, a a general impression,

8:33

conservative with a small

8:35

sea clearly competent. He's

8:37

run the numbers. He's done his sums and

8:39

the markets have reacted calmly.

8:41

He also, of course, took the

8:44

precaution of leaking most of what he

8:46

was going to do. In advance, we knew that he

8:48

was going to introduce

8:50

further freeze on the tax

8:52

threshold. So instead of an increase in income tax

8:54

without it actually being a nominal

8:56

increase, politically clever. And

8:59

the fact that the

9:02

the fact that he

9:04

has increased the tax

9:07

-- the amount of tax

9:09

that the rich will pay will

9:11

probably go down quite well

9:13

across the political spectrum. So all

9:15

in all, a workman night job

9:17

quite quite different from his predecessor

9:20

and fasten your course that in fifty

9:22

five days, the Tory

9:24

party has done this extraordinary hundred

9:26

and eighty degree turn from quasi

9:29

quattings a great handout budget

9:31

to this much moral steer one. Is

9:33

it really only fifty five days?

9:35

Only fifty five days. Good lord. My

9:37

sorry, did Jeremy Hunt today sound

9:39

to you like somebody still crazed

9:41

with a certain optimism that the Conservative

9:43

Party can actually win the next

9:45

election? I mean,

9:46

not really. At the end of the day, the

9:49

conservative party is still holding at around twenty five

9:51

percent and the labor party is still holding at around

9:53

fifty percent So is fair

9:55

to say there's not

9:55

been any great sort of honeymoon for Rishi

9:58

Sunak so far. But also, I think, you know,

9:59

the ABR was it the ABR common member? But,

10:02

you know, the ISS, I think, my my

10:04

bad. you pointed out that this year will

10:06

be the biggest foreign living

10:08

standards since the records began in

10:10

nineteen forty eight. And the second worst year

10:12

since records began will be next

10:13

year. So households will really,

10:16

really be feeding the pinch this year,

10:18

next year, probably the year after. So

10:20

again, electrically speaking, I don't

10:22

you

10:22

know, III didn't believe that budget was

10:24

in in

10:24

any way, a sort of meaningful way

10:26

out for the conservatives.

10:27

John, he has planted

10:29

some of the details of taxes

10:31

down the track a bit.

10:34

Is that because he doesn't know

10:36

what he's going to cut entirely yet? Or is he

10:38

just trying to make life a bit difficult

10:40

the opposition here. I think

10:42

there may be elements of both. I mean, the

10:44

political attractions of bringing in

10:46

tax rises after the twenty

10:48

four election are obvious. But

10:52

also, I I think these he's trying

10:54

to signal that this is a long

10:56

term strategy. It's not just a

10:58

quick fixate budget. The Britain is

11:00

going to remain austere and very

11:02

careful for many years to come. And

11:04

Murray isn't though a difficult budget for

11:06

labor to respond to because

11:08

the previous one, and we should it's

11:10

not really I mean, it's effectively a

11:12

budget. It's not technically a budget, but we'll call

11:14

it a budget. because the last one, of

11:16

course, was actually quite easy

11:18

for labor to respond to. They

11:20

just had to affect incredulous expressions

11:23

and say things like Have you people

11:25

completely lost your mind? Well,

11:27

yes. No. III think they can't quite do

11:29

that anymore, and I think the usual labor

11:32

attack lines have been like preemptively by

11:34

Jeremy Hunt because actually there will be

11:36

some decent spending in education, some decent

11:38

spending on the NHS. care

11:41

budgets as well. So I think one

11:42

quite obvious attack line would be that actually

11:44

the reforms of the social care system are

11:46

still being sovereign further

11:48

down the line probably in two years, I think

11:50

he said, which is obviously quite a big

11:53

topic. But again, I think cost of

11:55

living crisis the bills, I think, you

11:57

know, people's bills are going to rise massively. The

11:59

government is still

11:59

going to help, but he is going to help less

12:02

worthy than it was going to under

12:04

Listra. So there are still things to say.

12:06

And and and again, and I think the obvious fine as

12:08

well can be less and okay fine. This

12:10

had to be the hard decisions budget.

12:12

who made the really bad decision that

12:14

caused, you know, those hard decisions. And, again, you

12:16

know, you've been in power for twelve years of

12:18

party. how have you still

12:20

not fixed anything? So so

12:22

again, it's you know, I think, again, some of the attack

12:24

lines are no longer

12:25

up for grabs, but overall, I would not worry too

12:27

much if I were the Labour Party. I

12:29

mean, the one of the many

12:32

things, John, that the Torys will be

12:34

running against the next time there is a

12:36

general election. It's not just the line

12:38

in living standards that Maori was

12:40

discussing. It is the very fact

12:42

that whether you think they

12:44

have done well or not. They

12:46

have been in power for a

12:48

very long time now. Much longer

12:50

than British voters are usually

12:52

patient with one party at the top. Well,

12:54

indeed so. And as as as Marty

12:56

said a minute ago, the poll suggests

12:58

that British voters are about

13:00

to do what British voters

13:02

so love to do, give them a whack

13:04

and great spanking. Unless the

13:06

polls are wildly wildly

13:08

wrong, it will be thirteen

13:11

years by the time they go, which is indeed

13:13

a long time, but that's your lot.

13:15

And I suspect we'll see a

13:17

change of government. There was an elephant

13:19

on as there always is in the room that

13:21

that languished, unaddressed, Maury, and

13:23

you you alluded yourself to the

13:25

Office of Budget Responsibility what

13:27

it's estimated about. Living

13:30

standards, but the Office of Budget

13:32

Responsibility has also said today that

13:34

Brexit will result in a

13:36

long term decline of fifteen

13:38

percent in the UK's

13:40

trade intensity

13:42

rather. Is there the remotest chance

13:44

do you think of anybody in the Conservative

13:46

Party acknowledging that

13:48

dealing with it? You've already started

13:50

laughing Yes. I have. Yes. I have.

13:51

And I I believe that to be quite unlikely.

13:54

Although swiping what will be quite interesting politically

13:56

is that so I think some problem came out

13:58

earlier this week. showing that we know that the

14:00

margins now for people saying, you know, if the

14:02

voters would be held tomorrow, which way would

14:04

you vote? Yeah. And actually, remain would win

14:06

by such a massive margin and actually

14:08

so many leave voters from twenty sixteen

14:10

have now changed their minds. So I think that that that there is

14:11

an interesting thing. Yeah. But Exactly.

14:14

But one of the team members, who knows.

14:16

Yeah. But but, you know, I I do think the

14:18

political reality on this is kind of

14:20

changing. But then if you're if you're the conservative

14:22

party though, I think most of your

14:24

voters probably remainly voters,

14:26

which is the slightly tricky thing

14:28

there for them as a party. Now they do

14:30

have quite an unwieldy electoral

14:32

coalition anyway. but I think crucially, leave

14:34

voters are still their main people. But the

14:36

labor policy may be

14:38

interesting on that once, you know, if they do

14:40

get into government because you

14:42

know, if they do when, they can

14:44

probably start saying, actually, you know, fine. We're definitely

14:46

not going to rejoin, but can we maybe address

14:48

this and actually try to fix it in

14:50

some

14:50

way? think John can or should

14:52

this become more of a thing, especially

14:54

if the forecasts about living

14:57

standards and the British economy in

14:59

general are proven correct. What

15:02

sort of replica of anything?

15:04

Well, the the idea of of reversing it

15:06

to some extent, I mean, I know SecureStar

15:08

of the leader of the opposition has already said that

15:10

he thinks rejoining is is something

15:12

of a a dead letter, but there

15:14

are there are options of involving

15:16

not quite rejoining. Yes, there

15:18

are. There's quite a wide kind of

15:20

Penumbra between being completely out

15:22

and completely in association

15:25

agreements bilateral agreements

15:27

of various kinds, special

15:29

arrangements. I mean diplomacy has got

15:31

all kinds of tools. to to

15:33

fund issues. It's what we do for a living

15:35

room. And if the

15:37

mood in the UK changes, there

15:39

there are plenty of ways of getting a lot closer to

15:41

Europe without actually rejoining.

15:44

Well, let's move along to diplomacy

15:46

because back in February, Russian

15:48

president Vladimir Putin visited China for

15:50

the opening of the thousand and twenty two

15:52

Winter Olympics. Shortly

15:54

afterwards, for obvious reasons, a conventional

15:56

wisdom coalesced. The real

15:58

reason for the outing had to

16:00

be to secure president Xi

16:02

Jinping's support or at least acquiescence

16:04

for Putin's proposed lightning

16:06

conquest of Ukraine. nine months

16:08

later, the recent g twenty summit in

16:10

Bali offered some suggestion that

16:12

China's patience with Russia's vainglorious

16:15

Imperial Endeavor is ebbing. More

16:17

on that shortly, but president Xi

16:19

also featured after g twenty in

16:21

another piece of impromptu political

16:23

theater, this one involving Canadian prime

16:25

minister Justin Trudeau. as our

16:27

Toronto correspondent Thomas Lewis

16:29

here with contextualizers. Well,

16:32

I think it's worth explaining just

16:34

briefly exactly what president

16:36

Xi of China is

16:38

referring to when he alleges

16:40

that prime minister Trudeau

16:43

leaked contents of their conversations to

16:45

the press Now on Tuesday,

16:47

the fifteenth of November, the two

16:49

leaders had a conversation, the

16:51

contents of which was summarized

16:54

and rounded up and published by the

16:56

prime minister's office in what's

16:58

called a readout. Now these documents are

17:00

pretty standard prime

17:02

ministerial pieces of

17:04

protocol. Whenever prime minister Trudeau

17:06

has a conversation on the phone or

17:08

in person, world leader,

17:10

then the contents of that conversation

17:12

is published by the prime minister's

17:14

office. Now in this readout that was

17:16

published following the conversation, on fifteenth

17:18

of November. It was revealed

17:20

that Trudeau had brought up a

17:22

report by Canada's intelligence service.

17:26

that members of the Communist

17:28

Party of China had been

17:30

secretly funding eleven parliamentary

17:33

candidates. for Canada's general election in twenty

17:35

nineteen. There was also

17:37

suggestions that large sums of money

17:39

had been funneled through the Chinese

17:41

consulate in Toronto to

17:43

fund those candidates. But there also, there was a

17:45

push by people linked to China's

17:47

Communist Party to get figures

17:49

linked to them with their

17:51

agenda, I suppose. into other

17:54

jobs in the parliamentary system

17:56

in Canada, which is a story of course that's

17:58

raised a lot of concern in Canada and has been

17:59

described potentially as

18:02

an act of meddling by the Chinese government

18:04

in Canadian democracy. We,

18:06

of course, had the case of

18:09

house arrest of Meng Wanzhou. She was the Huawei

18:11

executive, while she was under

18:13

house arrest in relative luxury

18:15

in Vancouver to Canadian men who'd

18:17

be known as the the

18:19

two Michaels were being held in

18:21

very different conditions in

18:23

Chinese prisons. All of those figures have

18:25

been released, but I think you

18:27

know, it does show that there's a lingering

18:30

tension between the two governments.

18:32

And it's just interesting, I think,

18:34

that president she decided to raise

18:36

this in such an unscripted way

18:38

while the cameras were rolling with

18:40

prime minister Trudeau heave himself explained

18:43

at a press conference after the

18:45

incident that he felt it was his duty to

18:47

let Canadians know exactly what he was

18:49

talking to other world leaders.

18:51

about, but I think it does fit into a

18:53

pattern of relative strain between

18:55

the two countries that

18:57

obviously are still simmering

19:00

pretty public in some ways, I'd say. And just

19:02

a Trudeau, of course, his defense is that he

19:04

is standing up for Canadians by

19:06

speaking about those things with the

19:08

leaders apparently involved. Thomas

19:10

Lewis, thank you. Let's bring John and Marie

19:12

back in. And Marie, first of all, as

19:14

a professional observer of

19:16

this sort of thing. How much did

19:18

you enjoy the Justin Trudeau Xi

19:21

Jinping spat? I

19:22

really enjoyed it. It it was

19:24

just unbelievably passive

19:26

aggressive. It really felt like basically watching, so we two teenage girls

19:29

fighting over some boy in class or

19:31

something. The the the tone was exactly remarkable.

19:33

But but also, again, you know, I think it it

19:36

was quite

19:36

extraordinary because you do not expect Xi Jinping to

19:38

be talking like this, especially in front

19:40

of a camera at all. Well well, that

19:42

was the thing about it, John. It was

19:45

in front of a camera and I write in assuming

19:47

that at diplomatic enclaves and

19:49

you are a veteran of many, this

19:51

sort of thing is actually not that

19:54

unusual. No. Not that unusual at all.

19:57

She is not stupid, and he

19:59

knew that camera was there. He did this

20:01

deliberately. This was a public review

20:03

to to do. It was actually I thought very well

20:06

delivered. She looked at his call right

20:08

through. He the point he was stressing was

20:10

not that Canada and

20:12

and and trying to disagreed on things. Everybody understands

20:14

that. It was that Trudeau

20:16

had released into the public

20:19

domain material that the

20:21

Chinese thought should have been kept confidential. And

20:24

he he was actually quite gently just so

20:26

we need to to build the

20:28

conditions for a proper dialogue to

20:30

overcome the tension that Murray was just talking

20:32

about, indicating clearly that he didn't think that Trudeau's

20:35

release had done much towards that. I thought

20:37

he actually handled it quite well. I

20:39

mean, it's a thing that it it does always

20:41

interest me, the degree to which

20:43

whether or not two people happen to get

20:45

on can affect you

20:47

know, the policy towards

20:49

the lives of millions. And I think

20:51

there is an assumption, especially in democracies,

20:53

Maury, that such disputes

20:55

as we see have a certain amount of

20:57

theater to them. But again, at

20:59

all the conferences and so forth that you

21:01

have visited it, how often have you witnessed

21:04

two people actually having a proper

21:06

row.

21:06

Well, I mean, it sort of depends because I think

21:08

I I have mostly gone to,

21:11

you know, stuff related to British politics. And

21:13

obviously, if there's a lot of thing British politicians or

21:15

indeed the British and general enjoy, it's

21:17

a drink So in that

21:19

context, you know, I've been to a number

21:21

of conferences of the Labour Party, the Conservative

21:23

Party, the Liberal Democrats even

21:25

and I've definitely seen some quite heavy handed bickering

21:27

because people were quite drunk, but

21:29

the confidence I've been to in Brussels for

21:32

example people are usually very civil because

21:34

they, you know, because they feel that they must do at least, you

21:36

know, in the places where

21:37

I comma, a journalist, comma, could see

21:40

them. it it was, you know, if not quite always

21:42

all smiles, it was, you know, close enough to

21:44

that. Well, John, you've been at these

21:46

things as as not a journalist. And you don't you don't

21:48

necessarily have to name names, though, if

21:50

you'd like to go right ahead.

21:52

But have you been personally witness

21:54

to involved in

21:57

found yourself holding coats

21:59

aside or having to stand in the middle of

22:01

any especially memorable rouse?

22:03

Yes. All those things. But I wanted to

22:05

say what pain journalists are at

22:07

this conferences. When journalists are like, what are you

22:09

saying? What are you saying? What are you

22:12

saying? Well, yes. Exactly. To to

22:14

to make much behave like civilized human

22:16

beings. I mean, this is why we shut

22:18

doors and have closed doors consultation.

22:20

So we can bank table

22:22

scream his daddy at each other. I behave, I

22:24

love the analogy like spoiled teenagers trying

22:27

to hear from a boy. I mean, this kind

22:29

of thing goes on all the time. People get hot on

22:31

the collar. People get emotionally. but

22:33

not in front of journalists, not in front of cameras.

22:35

Can can you tell us about a particular

22:37

incident? You don't have to name the names, but

22:39

again, we'd both be very happy if you

22:41

did. I have spent a lot of time

22:43

working in Latin America, and I don't think I'm

22:45

revealing too many secrets when I say that the moment

22:47

you close the door, between where

22:49

where you got two Latin American teams

22:52

arguing over something. They do

22:54

ballistic almost instant. I

22:56

mean, the volumables Spanish

22:58

or insults hurled across the

23:00

table. Until finally, their organs off

23:02

their chest take a big sort of

23:04

big deep breath I'm gonna have a lot of wine

23:06

together. We we

23:08

should reluctantly talk about the more serious

23:10

stuff from the G twenty in particular, John.

23:12

And I I did just want to ask you as

23:14

somebody who has worked in China as

23:16

a diplomat, what you

23:18

gleaned about China's present

23:20

attitude to what Russia is doing

23:23

in Ukraine? I think this is the big

23:25

takeaway from the G twenty. The

23:28

declaration of the G

23:30

twenty caught all China observers

23:33

completely vice versa. China led

23:35

through language quoting the

23:37

United Nations, certainly, but language

23:39

roundly condemning Russia's

23:41

attack on Ukraine. Now

23:43

Russia, of course, was represented only by

23:45

a foreign minister. It didn't actually have

23:47

the firepower to prevent that

23:49

declaration going out as it was. China did

23:51

and didn't use that firepower. Moreover,

23:54

if you wade through

23:56

the two transcripts or stuff

23:58

as they are of president Xi's meeting with

24:01

president Biden. Lots of nuggets

24:03

that the presidency telling

24:05

the Americans in public, we're not trying to

24:07

challenge you, we're not trying to replace

24:09

you. Common ground

24:11

on not just the

24:13

wrongness of the use of nuclear weapon with the

24:15

threat of nuclear weapons in Ukraine. That was a

24:17

slap across the face to put in.

24:19

The Chinese are signaling to the world

24:21

that they are realigning. that

24:23

that Putin, like Bashir, like

24:26

Adaire, like all China's, quote, friends, unquote,

24:28

is slowly being thrown

24:30

under a bus can you switch somebody out robust slowly?

24:32

No. You you you could carry them. Carry them

24:35

gently as it be uswards. And

24:38

that China it

24:40

is entirely unscentedental about its foreign relations.

24:43

China will always

24:45

pursue its own interests. And if

24:47

any given country no longer fickle

24:49

those interests, That's just tough. You just

24:51

get cast aside, and it looks very

24:53

much as if that is what's happening to Russia

24:55

right now. Well, let's move along and

24:57

look at France, and it is not

24:59

news that France is singularly

25:01

suspicious of the encroachment of

25:03

foreign languages. For more than two

25:05

centuries, the Playa Centuries of the Academy,

25:07

France says swaddled in splendid

25:09

embroidered robes, have metaphorically

25:11

swished their actual ceremonial

25:14

swords. to repel such

25:16

punitive unruly linguistic borders

25:18

as these are genuine examples,

25:21

deadline, hashtag and has been, the

25:23

Academy Fron says are not involved

25:25

yet in the most recent apparent

25:27

Brewha of this variety. But

25:29

according to Lipiguro, Another

25:31

cultural organization is humonging

25:33

about tourist advertisements which

25:35

drift into English.

25:38

Murray, here representing the entire

25:40

French nation, Is is there anything

25:42

actually wrong with a big poster

25:44

saying I love Niece?

25:45

Obviously, no. No. No. Obviously, no.

25:47

And I think the weird thing as well is that this

25:49

feels quite neat because I remember being a teenager in France

25:51

and we would make fun of Quebec

25:53

because we we would basically use English

25:55

words, you know, among french words and

25:57

French sentences like normal

25:59

people. And we would

26:00

just say, so for example, shopping, you know, when we

26:02

say, you know, in France.

26:05

But in Quebec, they will say, Loumegues in

26:07

french. And then I remember very

26:09

specifically making fun of that in class, you know,

26:11

as a as a teenager. So So

26:13

again, I think France deciding to wake up one day and saying,

26:15

actually, no. We want to sound very

26:17

silly as well. It just feels completely

26:19

golf snacking.

26:20

I mean, Even if

26:21

this isn't officially a big whoop among

26:23

most French people, it is still officially

26:25

a big whoop in France. That's what

26:27

the Academy Fron says is therefore.

26:30

Have you ever figured out why that is? I mean,

26:32

it's not like French is a threatened

26:35

language, three hundred million people

26:37

speak it. IIII

26:39

am quite baffled by

26:40

it, if I'm honest, and it it reminds me of that

26:42

brilliant story of when so really,

26:45

really not long after the Brexit vote.

26:47

I believe the French delegation, rightly supported

26:49

the French delegation in Brussels. Their first their

26:51

nearly first record is to go well.

26:54

Our personal

26:54

takeaway from

26:55

Brexit is that French is now the

26:58

US

26:58

language. It's a, lads, it's been

27:00

like two days. Come

27:01

on. John,

27:05

it it it strikes me as strange,

27:07

and I'm I'm aware that I sit at this

27:09

table as somebody who

27:11

was raised on an English speaking island, and

27:13

I'm aware between the two of you,

27:15

you could probably converse with about three

27:17

quarters of the world's people.

27:19

But one of the arguments

27:22

advanced against this

27:24

malicious tourist advertisement saying, I love

27:26

Nice, is that allowing

27:28

well, banning this sort of thing as this

27:30

organization puts it will slow the

27:33

progress towards bilingualism. But

27:35

isn't bilingualism good?

27:38

Well, yes, I would have thought

27:40

so. Provided the

27:42

bilingualism has French on top, I think

27:44

they would argue, I cannot

27:46

resist at this point pointing

27:48

out that although the Academy of France says

27:50

and the various cultural organizations

27:52

in France are all in favor

27:55

of protecting the French language is

27:57

dignity, is culture, is beauty

27:59

against these filthy, tomato

28:01

sauce using analogue Saxons.

28:03

It doesn't work the other way around.

28:06

If you have them as fortune, to

28:08

live in France, but have a first language

28:10

like Bask or

28:12

Pronçale, heaven help you. There's

28:14

no official recognition whatever.

28:16

No official bilingual street signs.

28:18

To be educated in

28:20

your native language, you have to have a private

28:23

education. And I but they

28:25

managed to to get through life without

28:27

having to to to declare outrage against

28:29

the the the the French

28:32

authorities. What a pity that the French

28:34

themselves don't do this? Oh, yeah. No. No. No. No.

28:35

And I think that happens again that that is just

28:38

weird in parallelism about the French

28:40

language even within France. And it's my my great

28:42

grand election. was born in Red and

28:44

Brittany and actually spoke Brett on as

28:46

his first language. I learned that recently until he was

28:48

about six or seven and then went to

28:50

school and they forced him to learn French

28:52

and speak French and that was it. So again, I I think

28:54

other

28:54

languages were very much crushed even

28:56

though they are languages from the country

28:59

or France.

28:59

But but but I'm curious about as

29:01

an embarrassed in this company,

29:04

MommoGlot, is given

29:06

both of yours experiences.

29:08

And I'll ask you first on because we did do

29:10

the thing in the waiting room beforehand of

29:12

trying to figure out how many languages the

29:14

two of you speak between you, and it is

29:16

an impressive quantity. don't all languages do

29:19

this? Don't they all borrow from other

29:21

languages and incorporate idioms and

29:23

phrases into their own language? Or is it

29:25

is it just English that because English

29:27

obviously has a genius for it.

29:29

But does do all the languages you

29:31

speak do this in some level? Yes.

29:33

But virtually all of them, I mean, in some of

29:35

them, not just in French, there's a movement to

29:37

to purify the language, but it very

29:39

rarely gets anywhere. There is famously

29:42

in in North Korea. And the North Koreans, of

29:44

course, are deep into language purification being

29:46

the purest of races. And they

29:48

have developed a word for ice cream.

29:51

which is about five syllables long, which I

29:53

cannot normally produce. I

29:55

don't know a single North Korean who doesn't call

29:57

the white coal stuff does ice

29:59

cream, but it's so much

30:01

easier. I remember once

30:03

picking up on on what we were saying.

30:05

At the hoverboard, when there was a hovercraft

30:07

between the UK and France, very

30:09

proudly going out to my to to

30:11

the French guard and ask him when the eardly

30:14

swear, went. Using the correct note,

30:16

academicians' word for half

30:18

a crop, looked to me, so I was gonna stupid said, you're talking

30:20

about love our craft. That's a bridge. I

30:22

gave up. I

30:24

am reminded at this point that many

30:26

years ago, an Australian newspaper

30:28

but I think stealing the idea

30:30

from the new statesman ran a competition

30:32

for travel advice to give to people who are going

30:34

overseas for the first time.

30:36

And the the the I mean, there were a few things like,

30:38

for example, when entering a London underground

30:40

carriage, it's customary to shake hands with every

30:42

other passenger. But but The

30:45

winning entry was Murray that when

30:47

in France never attempt to

30:50

address the locals in French, they really

30:52

enjoy practicing their English, especially

30:54

with Australians. And if you

30:56

and if you address a Parisian

30:58

in English and they pretend not to

31:00

hear you, that is a

31:02

quaint local custom and the

31:04

correct response is to grasp them

31:06

firmly by the shoulder and say, hey mate,

31:08

are you deaf or something? But

31:11

but generally Just just as a closing

31:13

thought on this, you you you were saying

31:15

earlier that, you know, you don't take this

31:17

terribly seriously and that you weren't aware

31:19

of people who've your generation when you're growing up, taking

31:21

it terribly seriously. Do you think

31:24

establishment France will ever

31:26

get past

31:27

this Yes. But also, I think,

31:29

you know, does establishment firms really

31:31

matter that much? I'm sure that, for example, in my

31:33

grandmother who is the one swords.

31:36

They get sold. They do get sold via my grandmother,

31:38

who knows, a massive that has probably read every book

31:40

written by Nick, and Yifante's author

31:42

and takes that stuff very seriously. probably

31:44

does not care at all, you know, so that she's kind of

31:46

like the woman I follow on this stuff. So, you know, if

31:48

she doesn't care, then I really, really doubt

31:50

that anyone

31:51

does. Marie Leconte and John Everett, thank you both

31:54

for joining us. Finally, on today's

31:56

show, it's time for our regular letter from New

31:58

York City. Here is our correspondent,

32:00

Henry Re Sheridan. Last

32:02

week, I went

32:03

bonkers

32:05

in Yonkers.

32:10

Not really. I was only

32:13

in Yonkers City, just

32:15

north of New York City for

32:17

about half an hour. I

32:19

was there to report a story for monocle

32:22

magazine, and my conduct, while I

32:24

was there, was quite sensible. But

32:26

during my brief visit, I was

32:28

on the receiving end of a comment that I

32:30

do think was

32:32

bonkers. The episode doesn't

32:34

fit into the story. I was up there

32:36

to report, so I want to tell you

32:38

about it here instead.

32:40

After

32:43

I exited at Yonker's train station, I searched

32:45

on Google Maps for somewhere I

32:47

could buy a cappuccino.

32:48

I've settled on

32:50

a nearby cafe that has a large

32:53

number

32:53

a positive reviews. I

32:55

walked to the cafe and placed my order.

32:57

The barista, a

32:58

young woman, asked me if

33:01

I was British and I admitted as it was.

33:04

The very next

33:06

words, she said to me, were.

33:09

You remind me of Harry

33:12

Steins. I didn't

33:15

know what to say.

33:17

I asked the barista where she

33:19

was from mainly because I couldn't

33:21

think of anything else. She

33:23

said Mexico. I nodded

33:25

and smiled then left the

33:27

cafe. I

33:30

walked

33:31

through the streets of Yonkers in

33:33

a days thinking about the barista's

33:36

comment. Why did I

33:38

remind her? of Harry

33:40

Styles. As far as I

33:42

know, Harry Styles and I

33:44

have very little in common.

33:46

But then I don't know very

33:48

much about mister styles. Here's

33:51

a sum total of my styles

33:53

knowledge. He's a singer.

33:55

He got his start as a teenager

33:57

in a band called One Direction.

33:59

And

33:59

since leaving his first job,

34:02

he's been mute an extraordinarily successful solar

34:04

career. None of those statements can

34:06

be accurately applied to me.

34:08

And I certainly

34:10

don't look like Harry Styles. Styles

34:12

is known for his boyish charm

34:14

incorporating a thick head of artfully

34:17

twosled blonde hair. I look like every character from Wallace

34:19

and Grommet at the same time. My

34:22

partner shaves my head every couple of weeks

34:24

to conceal my

34:26

rapidly thinning dough. In fact, there are only

34:29

two things I know for certain I have in

34:31

common with Harry styles. First,

34:35

we both originate in the United

34:38

Kingdom. Second, we're both in relationships

34:40

with older women.

34:42

Unless, she knows much Much

34:44

more about me than she revealed, the barista was only party

34:47

to one of those pieces of

34:50

information.

34:52

Was

34:53

my being

34:56

British

34:56

really enough to not only remind her

34:59

Harry Styles, but to prompt her to

35:02

report that psychic

35:03

event to me. I

35:05

don't

35:05

like that idea. if

35:07

I myself around a person who is audibly

35:10

British in a social context

35:12

where the majority of people

35:14

aren't British, I'm often

35:16

disinclined to talk and thus reveal myself

35:18

to also be British.

35:20

This is because I don't want to take the

35:22

risk of being grouped in with another

35:24

British person. I've got nothing against British people. I just

35:26

strongly dislike the sense of being part

35:28

of a group. The feeling

35:30

of a group identity

35:32

eating away identity

35:34

makes me feel a bit sick.

35:36

So the possibility that merely being

35:38

British was enough to render me

35:41

practically indistinguishable from Harry styles in

35:43

the eyes of the Yonker's barista

35:46

didn't feel good at

35:48

all. However,

35:48

however In

35:49

the next few days, for the

35:52

first time in my life, I'm going to

35:54

consciously make myself visible as

35:56

a member of a

35:58

national group. As soon

35:59

as I

35:59

finish writing and recording this letter,

36:02

I'm heading into Manhattan

36:04

to pick up my Wales

36:06

football shirt from the Adidas

36:08

flagship store. I'm

36:09

going to wear it while watching Wales at

36:11

this year's compromised World Cup in

36:14

Qatar. I'm

36:16

nervous and excited to publicly out myself

36:19

as welsh. As I've said, I

36:21

normally go out of my way to avoid

36:23

being identified as part of a

36:25

group. So why is

36:27

this different? There's a

36:28

scarcity value. There are

36:30

only three million welsh people, so we

36:32

are rare simply as organisms. That

36:35

makes me feel special. Also,

36:38

we don't get many opportunities to represent

36:40

ourselves collectively on a global

36:42

stage. This is the first

36:44

football world cup we've qualified for

36:46

in sixty four years. We're good at rugby, but that

36:48

can't be considered a truly global

36:51

sport. There's also

36:53

an element of trying to

36:56

ameliorate a personal insecurity.

36:58

My dad's English and I grew

37:00

up in England till

37:01

I was six. By this stage, only the

37:03

faintest traces remain of the weak

37:05

welsh accent I once

37:07

had. Putting on

37:10

the whale shirt. I'm asserting my national affiliation to

37:12

myself as much as anyone else.

37:14

Of course, a football shirt isn't going to

37:16

solve my ongoing

37:18

identity crisis. I'm not going

37:20

to be able to wear it all or

37:22

even most of the

37:24

time. It would get threadbare

37:26

and filthy. Being convenient truth is that none of us can

37:28

hide forever inside a group

37:30

identity or escape

37:32

them completely. Instead,

37:34

we've got to work with whatever's to

37:36

hand in terms of identifiers

37:38

to assemble and constantly maintain

37:40

a junk sculpture resembling a person

37:43

for the duration of our lifetimes.

37:46

Luckily for most of us, that's not

37:48

too long. Our

37:52

New York radio correspondent, Henry Re Sheridan, with his brass

37:54

band, who he lives with. That's all for

37:57

this edition of the monocle

37:59

Daily. Thanks our panels today, Marie LeCote and John Eberard. Today show was

38:02

produced by Lillian Fawcett and Research by

38:04

Emily Sands. Our sound engineer was Adam

38:06

Heaton. I'm Andrew Miller here in London. The Daily

38:08

Returns at same time Thanks

38:12

for listening.