0:00

are listening to the Monaco Daily first broadcast

0:02

on the fifteenth of November twenty twenty two

0:04

on Monaco twenty four.

0:06

Russia battles Ukraine further

0:08

Joe Biden and Xi Jinping remind

0:10

of the value of in person diplomacy

0:13

and is at time to make first ladies

0:16

or their equivalent redundant I'm

0:18

Andrew Mueller. The monocle daily starts now.

0:32

Hello, and welcome to the Monocle Daily coming

0:34

to from our studios here at Madori House London.

0:37

I'm Andrew Mueller. My guest, Terry Steersney

0:39

and John Ellich will discuss all the day's big

0:41

stories, plus will reflect on the Grammy

0:44

nominations and visit a new exhibition

0:46

by Caribbean painters. Stay tuned

0:48

all that and more coming up right here on the

0:50

monocle daily. This

0:57

is the monocle daily. I'm Andrew Mueller, and

0:59

I am joined today by Terry Steersney, the

1:01

political journalist and writer, and by

1:03

John Ellich, the columnist and author,

1:06

Hello to you both. Hello? Good evening.

1:08

It is that part of the show much

1:10

the more so as Christmas looms in

1:12

which we invite our guests to

1:15

do the thing of basically trundling up and

1:17

down an imaginary street with a big barrel

1:20

full of stuff. Terry,

1:22

there is a thing of which you cannot speak,

1:25

but which you will be able to speak in due

1:28

course. But there's other books you've written

1:30

people could virus. Yeah.

1:30

But, yeah, I'm still working on the hush hush thing.

1:33

but other books which are available, two

1:35

political thrillers. If you like books

1:38

about people, you know, giving their cronies

1:40

dodgy peerages and such like and all

1:42

sorts of drama and seek missing

1:44

files secrets. Yeah.

1:46

That's that's generally my line of work. So

1:48

And John, you still have available

1:51

on the shelves a book explaining how

1:53

and why subscribers to conspiracy

1:55

theories are mostly ding that. But

1:58

also how they are all of us. yes, conspiracy,

2:00

a history of of I'm repeatable

2:02

theories and not You're a little You're a little outside monarchs.

2:05

Oh, monarchs. Okay. History monarchs. don't don't

2:07

don't overdo it. I I won't see anything in the

2:09

after text of your subtitle. It's fine.

2:11

Yes. Book cowritten with the Exon

2:14

Tom Phillips, which came out last summer.

2:16

Also, I should mention I have an equally

2:18

excellent subset called the newsletter. It's not quite everything

2:20

on which I'm currently running a deal. where if

2:22

you subscribe for a year now, I will just send you a copy

2:24

of my first book, which is one of the most of the trivia books

2:26

you buy for your dad at Christmas. So it's a great time really

2:29

to give me some money. I think that's the first

2:31

some stack plug on the daily. That can't

2:33

be, surely. I mean, global everywhere.

2:36

Other of our guests may have some stacks,

2:38

I'm starting to feel like one of the very few people

2:40

left alive who does not, but you are the first

2:42

that I can recall actually plug in. Oh, well, let's

2:44

I'm I'm hoping I benefit from that. because I got a

2:46

lot of all that all that listens money. We

2:49

will hear more from you both shortly, but we're

2:51

going to start in Ukraine, which once

2:53

again finds itself on the receiving end

2:55

of Russian petrol and Following

2:57

Russia's capitulation in Herzog, the

2:59

only regional capital it had captured,

3:01

Russia has launched a major barrage of

3:03

missiles at targets across Ukraine. once

3:06

again, striking energy infrastructure and

3:08

other civilian targets. Several cities,

3:10

including Odessa and Lave are reporting

3:13

at least partial loss. of electricity

3:15

and heating, and the forecast for the

3:17

next few days in the Veev rarely creeps

3:20

up above zero Celsius One

3:22

joined now from Nikolayev by the Ukrainian

3:24

journalist, Natalia, Humminhoek. Natalia,

3:27

first of all, what's the latest where you are?

3:30

So Nikolai, which

3:32

is a southern city on

3:34

the way to her son, where I was heading,

3:38

It's used for selling, but something which

3:40

happened today. It's quite, and it's

3:42

quite unique, I should say. It was really the

3:44

biggest attack since the

3:47

invasion and the

3:49

biggest, which we experienced in early

3:51

October when the Russia started the

3:53

assault on the Ukrainian infrastructure. So

3:56

there were around according

3:59

to the Ukrainian air defense, around hundred

4:02

at least ninety rockets. you know,

4:04

from the Caspian Sea sent to the

4:07

whole territory of Ukraine, including

4:10

two, for instance, these areas. We

4:12

while driving her the the

4:14

sound, I should say, it's quite a tough

4:17

feeling, but it's have what's happening

4:19

all over the country. Fortunately here,

4:21

there was no major damage. And

4:25

people stayed in the shelters for

4:27

a bomb shelters, all across country for

4:29

a couple of hours. But out of

4:31

the ninety, Rohit seventy, according

4:34

to the Ukrainian air defense, were

4:36

shell, however, at least fifteen object

4:39

of the critical infrastructure might

4:41

be damaged all around the country.

4:43

So we just like getting out of

4:46

the places without proper connection trying

4:48

to figure out what's happening anywhere.

4:50

Luckily, we understand the realm of so many

4:53

casualties. And as we

4:55

heard, most of the rockets has been

4:57

shelved, but it was quite an immense pressure

5:00

on the whole country.

5:01

And in Nikolayev, how

5:03

is the infrastructure holding up

5:06

in terms of energy, electricity, heating,

5:08

and so on?

5:10

So, hating electricity, it's

5:13

it's there. Nikolay was

5:15

really in this unlucky position. This is

5:17

a town between Odessa and Herzog.

5:19

And for the last months, it was,

5:22

you know, shelled more

5:24

or less regularly. So it was under

5:26

their tag for quite a long time. but

5:28

no electricity, Internet connection,

5:31

water supply, all is there. Somehow,

5:33

Ukrainians became resilient to,

5:36

you know, to rebuild the things. But of course, there

5:38

there are limits. And especially, before

5:40

the the cold season, it's becoming more

5:43

hectic. The

5:45

Russian withdrawal and from

5:48

her soul makes the city feels a

5:50

bit safer, at least it was the case

5:52

a couple of days ago. But we see

5:54

that from this type of attacks, it,

5:57

you know, it it it you know, even

5:59

what

6:00

not anybody can be fully protected.

6:02

You mentioned there the beginning

6:05

of the cold season, and of course, winter

6:07

is descending on Ukraine. And I'm just

6:09

at the risk of depressing you, looking

6:11

at the forecast for Nikolayev. Now it's

6:13

going to start snowing on Sunday, and then

6:15

temperatures will be below freezing. probably

6:18

for some several months. How

6:20

are people in the city in Nikolayev's position

6:23

preparing for that?

6:24

I think like like all over the country.

6:27

It's usually the end of the November. It's

6:29

already when the snow starts. It's

6:31

a cold season. So We

6:33

all connect this attack not so much

6:35

as for the, you know, revenge for the

6:37

withdrawal capitulation of her son,

6:39

but really you know, I talked to the

6:41

Ukrainian military back in end

6:43

of August when they were thinking

6:45

about this scenario. the

6:48

targeted attacks on the infrastructure before

6:50

the cold season. They started a bit early

6:52

honestly in October, which given

6:54

the Ukrainians, which destroyed a lot of infrastructure

6:57

already. But given some, you know,

6:59

time to prepare because, you know, people

7:02

are buying generators, people are getting

7:04

used and finding their way maybe

7:06

if it's possible, you know, if you can move from

7:08

some, you know, residential areas

7:11

outside to the villages, you know,

7:13

to use any type of a different

7:16

heating or things like that. So people

7:18

just are preparing for

7:21

tough times.

7:21

And just finally, we

7:23

have spoken to a a lot of Ukrainian

7:26

correspondence officials and

7:29

people over the last eight

7:31

or nine months of this war. And

7:33

one recurring motif of those conversations

7:36

has been people talking about the

7:38

resolve of Ukrainians, the morale

7:40

of Ukrainians. It is going to face

7:42

a severe test this winter.

7:45

Are you still convinced that Ukrainians

7:48

are absolutely determined to see this through?

7:51

I don't have doubts

7:53

about that. You know, I said, like,

7:55

oddly enough, you know, the similar attacks

7:57

as for today, it was the first one in

8:00

October. That was very

8:02

shocking. I don't mean that today was an easy

8:04

day. but it was the months

8:06

of preparedness. And I

8:08

see it everywhere in the way how fast,

8:11

you know, the the state is able

8:13

to rebuild the

8:15

infrastructure when it's possible, you know,

8:17

from the railway to electricity. You

8:19

know, I'd even give you an example, you know,

8:21

the the Ukrainian mobile companies,

8:23

her son is out of cell

8:25

phone coverage for was

8:27

for months as of the Ukrainian coverage.

8:29

They're providing they have a first

8:33

verify's decision to provide the

8:36

mobile connection for free, you know, like that

8:38

people don't need to pay for that. So there

8:40

are a lot of quick, you know, decisions

8:42

as long as things are unfolding. So

8:45

this resilience would be there, but

8:47

of course, it's has a toll

8:49

on human life and human suffering,

8:52

and we still don't know, you know,

8:54

how to live in the modern town and

8:56

Ukraine is a kind of modern country.

8:58

without the electricity, if you leave, for instance,

9:00

on the, you know, tenth, twelfth floor of the residential

9:03

area. It's still something new. But I

9:05

see a lot of the, you know,

9:08

preparation and the way

9:10

people organize their life in

9:12

this new environment.

9:13

in Nikolayev.

9:16

Thank you for joining us. We'll we'll bring

9:18

our panel back in now, Terry

9:20

and John. And for much of the last

9:22

two and a half years of course face to face

9:24

meetings have been difficult to organize.

9:27

Combined by COVID nineteen, we

9:29

adapted to interact via screens

9:31

after first carefully arranging our bookshelves

9:33

so that we looked clever and turning any

9:35

volumes we may have written ourselves to face

9:37

our computer's camera front on. However,

9:40

the headline thus far of the current g twenty

9:42

summit in Bali does seem something of an

9:44

advertisement for the virtues of the in

9:46

person chat. US president Joe

9:48

Biden and Chinese president Xi Jinping

9:50

spoke for three hours and

9:52

even allowing for the diplomatic euphemisms,

9:55

which traditionally shroud such encounters,

9:58

it does seem to have gone fairly

9:59

amicably. So, Terry, we're

10:02

not talking so much about the discussion

10:04

itself as what we

10:06

what we derive or what we glean

10:08

from the medium. So what do you think a face

10:10

to face meeting gives us that an

10:13

on screen meeting or a telephone chat

10:15

does not.

10:16

I think it gives

10:19

the leaders a chance to get a

10:21

real sense of the person that

10:23

they're interacting with the kind of, you know,

10:25

so much can change if leaders

10:27

actually just get on with each other.

10:29

And obviously, you don't get that so much

10:31

through a screen. Obviously, meeting

10:33

with interpreters there. None

10:36

of these things are kind of very rarely do you

10:38

get them go off for the sort of the walk in the

10:40

woods, you know, where they go and have sort of

10:42

really in-depth private discussions.

10:45

But these things, I think they become more

10:47

symbolic when the leaders haven't had

10:49

a chance to meet in the recent past. And if you

10:51

think back to some of the big summits in the

10:53

past, those repeat things that were,

10:55

you know, American and Russian leaders

10:57

or Nixon amount, whatever, had never

11:00

been face to face. And it was the big sort of symbolic

11:02

step of actually going and seeing each other

11:05

face to face. So I think, you know, in a time when

11:07

a lot of world leaders haven't left their

11:09

own countries either by choice or

11:11

not, I think it does become more

11:13

important.

11:13

So John Turrie cites

11:16

there the example of Nixon traveling

11:18

to China to visit Mao, which

11:20

was, of course, seen at the time quite reasonably

11:22

is a seismic, diplomatic breakthrough. But

11:26

even amid the restrictions of the last

11:28

couple of years, Does the

11:30

face to face interview still have the value

11:32

it might have had forty, fifty

11:34

years ago because people are now much

11:37

more accessible. I mean, really, if there is

11:39

a massive thing, the president of the United

11:41

States can talk to the president of China pretty

11:43

much whenever he likes. I think so.

11:45

III do think there is a huge value in this.

11:47

I mean, having III

11:50

do feel you you miss something when you can't when

11:52

you're not face to face someone. It it is

11:54

easy if you're on a if you're doing a Zoom meeting

11:57

to to zone out get distracted.

12:00

Let's start looking at Twitter or or mass

12:02

technology maybe this week. Well, in

12:04

a way in a way you can't do that, it's much easier

12:06

to retain that kind of that personal

12:08

connection kind of feel bit if you're if you're more

12:10

actually face to face with someone. Also, as I

12:12

have a very pretentious example

12:14

from -- History, which is which is because

12:16

my specialty. If you think back

12:19

to to eighteen seventy, which

12:21

I'm sure -- We do frequently. -- older

12:23

listeners may remember. The

12:26

the the m's telegram, are you familiar with this?

12:28

Yeah. So it was the

12:31

time of great tension between France and

12:33

and what was to become Germany. There

12:36

was a meeting, a face to face meeting between

12:38

Kaziel Helmer first and the French ambassador

12:41

about some tension around our Sassler Anne.

12:44

And, you know, they set out the positions. didn't go

12:46

brilliantly, but, you know, it was the reason to be polite.

12:48

They knew where they stood. It was all very friendly.

12:51

which point one, Otto von Bismarck,

12:54

put out a press release on it, which had

12:56

a lot of the more conservatory phrases removed

12:59

which caused an increase in tensions

13:01

on both sides and French declaration of war.

13:04

So think in that one story, you've got both the

13:07

the the value of of that kind of face to

13:09

face meeting and the danger of doing it

13:11

in more high-tech ways. Well, indeed,

13:13

Terry, because that is a potential drawback

13:15

if two people meet and just

13:18

don't get on at all or dislike each other.

13:20

And there is also the fact and

13:22

obviously, former US president Donald

13:24

Trump's meeting with Kim Jong Un was probably

13:26

an example of this that turning

13:29

up at a thing kind of

13:31

commits you in a way that just

13:33

having a chat via Zoom

13:35

or on the phone does not. You you've

13:37

bought into the process. And if you walk away

13:39

from it with nothing, you look

13:41

a bit silly.

13:42

Yeah. I don't think there are good examples

13:44

of that. I mean, I think, like, you know, when Kennedy met

13:46

Christophe, everyone thought at first, wow, is gonna

13:48

be great, you know, the the young, you know,

13:50

vibrant, young American president is gonna meet this

13:52

sort of more open Russian leader. And

13:54

Christophe came away completely underestimating

13:57

Kennedy saying, well, he's

13:58

inexperienced. He's immature.

13:59

He's badly briefed about this. None

14:02

of this went well. And then based his political

14:05

calculations on that. And

14:07

I think there is a danger in people just not

14:09

knowing each other. I mean, I was talking to an

14:11

MP recently who'd been around in the House of

14:13

Commons for a while. and sort of looking

14:15

at the twenty nineteen intake and kind

14:17

of the thing is I don't really know any of

14:19

them because half of them haven't been there. We

14:21

didn't meet each other face to face for two and a half

14:23

years. and he had the sort of the bigger point that that

14:25

actually made it harder to

14:28

to manage MPs and for MPs to

14:30

do what they're told by the whips and so forth, which might

14:32

be a good thing because these people

14:34

just hadn't met face to face for

14:36

a for such a long time.

14:37

I mean, it is an oddity of the

14:39

modern age John, that in no other generations

14:42

of humanity have been through, and I'm not sure if we've

14:44

quite figured it out. The fact that you can have

14:46

quite long standing working relationships

14:48

with people who, you know, you wouldn't recognize

14:51

if they moved in next door. And certainly, as AAA

14:53

fellow freelance journalist, you will know the

14:55

feeling. You have probably worked with editors for

14:57

years without necessarily ever

14:59

meeting them. I mean, I I do personally

15:01

for the reasons we're talking about, I do personally great

15:04

value of being able to sit down or have a coffee

15:06

or a beer with someone. So I try and avoid that.

15:08

But but they certainly do know people

15:10

who switch jobs during the pandemic

15:13

and when months working from home

15:15

were ever meeting their colleagues. And

15:18

I do think that I mean, I I think that kind

15:20

of limits your ability

15:22

to to build trust with people. And

15:24

think in terms of this of international relations with

15:26

it, I think that's the main thing. It's like knowing

15:29

that someone is not going to screw

15:31

you behind your back is particularly

15:33

when we're kind of looking at the sort situations seeing

15:36

with with US, China relations, or around

15:38

the war in Ukraine. think the level

15:40

of understanding where, like, even if you disagree

15:42

with someone, you know what the motives are, you to

15:44

predict their ability, sorry,

15:46

predict their next move to some extent, is

15:49

incredibly useful in these kind of high risk

15:51

situations. I mean, But it it doesn't

15:53

always work though. It doesn't Terry. We did, of course,

15:55

prior to the invasion of Ukraine have this

15:57

curious procession of leaders shlepping

16:00

to Moscow to sit at the other end of Vladimir

16:02

Putin's weird long table. And

16:04

of course, the most elementary student

16:06

of British history will recall a British prime

16:08

minister coming back from a face to face meeting in

16:10

nineteen thirty eight, a triumphantly brandishing

16:13

a piece of paper and Quite truth.

16:15

That's the way it's been presented by history, but

16:17

it was the Chamberlain government was buying

16:19

time for rearmament. But perhaps they

16:21

know that when you go to the laundromat to

16:24

the

16:24

long table, this is not all going, you know,

16:26

incredibly well. I mean, if you think of, you know, in

16:28

credit mostly the very most recent British

16:31

political history, it was probably a massive

16:33

one of many Liz trust's Liz

16:35

trust's massive mistakes. not to,

16:37

for instance, meet, you know, a Nicholas

16:39

Durgin or to meet any of the other first ministers,

16:41

not even to phone them up. You know, in the six

16:44

weeks had. It really seemed like did that in the first

16:46

day or so. Just so he could say, tick that off the

16:48

list. Fairly, basically. Just ring them up and say

16:50

hello. And then you can see that he's gonna try to build

16:52

on that with meetings with Macron, with the other,

16:54

you know, his his mangoes brits with Justin Trudeau

16:56

and so

16:56

forth. Well, I I I'm glad you have invoked

16:58

contemporary British politics because we will

17:01

now monitor the progress of the United

17:03

Kingdom to the sun lit up plans, which listeners

17:05

may recall being assured of reaching circa

17:07

two thousand and sixteen. On the same

17:09

day that the UK stock market has ceded

17:12

its long held position as Europe's most

17:14

valuable to France, the UK's

17:16

fifth Prime Minister in the six years since

17:18

the Brexit at vote, Rishi Sunak, acknowledged

17:20

that the UK's reputation abroad has

17:22

taken, quote, a bit of a knock.

17:24

In an arguably related development, Brexit

17:27

supporting former environment secretary

17:29

George Eustace has admitted out loud

17:31

that the UK's much Bally Hood post

17:33

Brexit trade deal with Australia is

17:36

also, quote, not actually

17:38

very good. John,

17:41

do we dare perceive among

17:43

the the Brexiter ranks? any

17:46

distant clinc of a dropping penny.

17:49

I'm not sure we do. So as

17:51

I under as I understood it, that Ricky soon, that

17:53

quote wasn't actually about think it was about Brexit.

17:56

I thought it was about the under short lived quasi

17:58

quarting. Charles the ship Indeed

18:00

it was, but you could argue that

18:02

that like everything else over the last six

18:04

years. I mean, Brexit is the I think it's where

18:06

it all starts. I'm with you. I entirely agree.

18:08

I think Brexit is is an absolutely terrible

18:10

idea. My my suspicion

18:12

is in the long term Britain kind of edges back

18:14

to the single market because otherwise it's too expensive

18:16

not to. But I don't

18:19

see any I mean, Eustace is a bit different.

18:21

Eustace clearly was actually sort of recanting.

18:23

Mhmm. He he reminds

18:25

me of like, we've seen number of business leaders

18:27

in the last few years, basically standing

18:30

up and going, that's not that's not the Brexit I wanted

18:32

like this. You know there's children's books. That's not my

18:35

that's not my Brexit. it's it's labor market.

18:37

It's too constrained. It's that kind of thing. I

18:40

am not sure we see any movement

18:42

on on Brexit. while

18:45

the conservative party remains in power

18:48

because if you kind of think about

18:50

who selects the conservative leader,

18:53

As we said, as we said, as we have learned. And

18:55

yes, they are a very old,

18:57

very white, very out of touch group

18:59

who care a great deal about moving

19:02

away from the European Union. I think

19:04

we need to change a government before we can see

19:06

any movement back towards sanity.

19:09

But I do think the the evidence is piling

19:11

up that will make the British public

19:14

come around on that. Like, we've seen plenty of polling

19:16

now that suggests that it's it's getting

19:18

it's fairly consistently sort of sixtyforty in

19:20

terms of, you know, was it a mistake to leave the

19:22

European Union? The majority of the British people now

19:24

say they were. Well, we will come back to

19:27

that shortly, but I I do want to talk about

19:29

whatever dent this may have put in

19:31

the United Kingdom's image abroad,

19:34

Terry, because it

19:36

pains me to say any of the following as

19:38

an Australian, but you you don't need

19:40

a long memory to record the United Kingdom

19:42

being generally reasonably well

19:45

thought of in the world as a country

19:47

that was competently

19:50

run and sensible and

19:53

didn't do too many rash

19:55

things. I mean, there's obviously a number of asteriskes

19:57

next to that thing. But you know what I'm saying?

19:59

Do you get the impression that the UK's

20:02

image has taken a a major ding

20:04

in the last six years?

20:05

think yeah. think just

20:08

because you Britain is is

20:10

not in the room in terms of so many. Obviously,

20:12

they're still in the room at things like the G7,

20:14

the G20 is going on NATO. But

20:17

you are not there in lot of big

20:19

European negotiations. And what you're

20:21

seeing is British, you know,

20:23

ministers having to go back and try

20:26

to put things slightly

20:28

back together. I mean, there seems to be a little bit

20:30

of optimism at the moment about

20:32

the Northern Ireland protocol and the idea

20:34

that we might possibly be able to

20:36

gradually renegotiate something something

20:39

that works rather than, you know,

20:41

what the situation we had, which which patently

20:44

really didn't work. mean, what hasn't happened

20:46

yet though is, you know, and for obvious

20:48

political reasons, labor can't yet

20:50

really go back and say, look, we agree. This is

20:52

all a massive mistake. They still have to at this point

20:54

say, okay, we accept the result. We

20:56

have to we are where we are and we have to

20:59

carry on from there. but there seems

21:01

to be a slightly more constructive

21:04

attitude to trying to make things work. And

21:07

the reality of it is that's likely to to

21:09

unpick the things that were put in place

21:11

by the last couple of prime ministers. John,

21:14

you were saying that you couldn't see any

21:16

likelihood of a nervous

21:18

hesitant step back towards Europe absent

21:21

a change of government. And you're probably right. But as

21:23

Terry points out, labor Labor's

21:25

leader, Sarkis Starmer, has already said that attempting

21:27

to rejoin the European Union is not

21:29

a priority, but you are quite right. They'd be

21:31

looking at the same polls. Eugov

21:34

Pole in June said only sixteen percent

21:36

of people thought Brexit had gone well or

21:38

very well, fifty four percent

21:40

badly or very badly. Yeah.

21:43

I mean, Keystone, the the label

21:45

leader has been, as you say, quite clear,

21:47

that that this is not this is not what

21:49

he would do in office. I mean, it would be an enormous

21:51

headache, wouldn't it? it would be. But I mean,

21:54

firstly, I think I

21:56

mean, at risk alienating some of the relationship,

21:58

kiss time is a lawyer and has lawyer has approached approached

22:00

the truth. He's a he's a great one for loopholes.

22:03

And some also something we do know about him

22:06

is that he has been

22:08

far harder. I mean, I hesitate bring up

22:10

internal Labour Party politics because this is absolutely

22:13

awful subject. I hate myself for even doing it.

22:15

But but having having sort of tried

22:17

to consolidate having tried to be quite consultatory

22:20

towards left of the Labour Party when running

22:22

for the leadership. He has in office repeatedly

22:25

denounced them. He's been quite hostile to them.

22:28

In the manner of -- because if you

22:30

think of it in sort of international

22:32

terms, he was essentially trying to win a primary election

22:34

and now he's trying to run for the general and those are two different

22:37

electros. So but the result of this

22:39

is, we know that Kiestama is a man who

22:41

can be flexible with the truth. I

22:43

think it is at at risk

22:45

of predicting that what will happen is what they want

22:47

to happen. I think it is entirely

22:50

plausible that especially if a Labour

22:52

government comes power with a half decent majority.

22:55

Its leadership will turn around and go, oh, the economy

22:57

is so much worse than we thought. We have a mandate.

23:00

We are going to move Britain back towards Europe.

23:02

Well, to Chile now, which finds

23:04

itself without a first lady,

23:07

this does not appear to be any reflection

23:09

upon president Gabriel Borich as such.

23:11

his partner, Irina Karamanas, has not

23:13

wearied of him, but of the role

23:15

and title. Miss Karamanas announced

23:17

a couple of weeks back she was quitting as

23:20

first lady on the grounds that she does not

23:22

believe the role should even exist. It

23:24

is at least her second change of mind on

23:26

the subject having initially decided she

23:28

didn't want the gig then deciding to

23:30

have go at doing it and reforming it

23:32

and now deciding she was right the

23:34

first time. Terry, as a

23:36

fundamental principle, should

23:39

the spouse slash partner whatever

23:41

of a given national leader actually

23:43

be a thing?

23:45

I think it's a really weird kind

23:47

of historical hangover. And

23:49

I was kind

23:50

of It's Dolly Madison's fault. It's all Dolly

23:52

Madison.

23:52

And I think almost maybe it's trying to recreate

23:54

this idea you know, you have a country house and

23:57

the people are the hosts and you you want to know

23:59

about their families.

23:59

But I think it's almost hangover from

24:02

the kind of mid twentieth

24:03

century idea that, you know, you you invite

24:05

the boss to dinner and and you you mostly

24:07

now, I don't think people invite their spouses

24:10

to to work dues. And I think it's kind of

24:12

of quite a strange thing that we still

24:14

expect people to have their partners in

24:16

a host big banquet dinners

24:18

and things like that. I mean, I think most British

24:20

prime ministers They're spouses at least had a

24:22

had a day job of sorts.

24:23

Mhmm. And so think, you know, it's

24:25

it's time for it to go. John president

24:27

Boris did say something it

24:30

was an interesting thought about the role

24:32

during the campaign. He said there can be

24:34

no posts in the state that have

24:36

to do or are related to a relationship

24:38

with the president or with anyone.

24:41

So if you think about that, and I think

24:43

he has a case. Is is the first lady

24:46

or the equivalent role. It it

24:48

is it basically just nepotism out in the

24:50

open? It is weirdly. I mean,

24:52

it's incredibly heteronormative. You don't get

24:54

like like you don't get first

24:57

husband's performing the role in the same way you

24:59

get first ladies. There has just been that many

25:01

of your No. There has there has there has, of course, been

25:03

one in in Chile, of course, But

25:06

it's it it is I mean, also

25:08

this is often a criticism that has been made.

25:10

If you think about In

25:12

in Bill Clinton's first term back in the nineties

25:15

where, like, I believe Hillary Clinton

25:17

was given the certain amount of responsibility to

25:20

manage the presidency's folks towards

25:22

health care reform. And that was incredibly

25:24

controversial and was attacked. Even

25:27

though she's like she was, you know, she's she's a very

25:29

intelligent woman. She was a bit of an expert.

25:31

She was And it had always been clear that

25:33

this would be her role, but that was treated

25:35

as form of nepotism because she was not

25:37

directly elected. So it does kind of feel like a bit

25:40

weird that you say, oh, that you expect

25:43

that there will be any formal expectation for

25:45

someone to have an actual policy role

25:48

simply because they are married to a political

25:50

leader. of course, we've also seen something very similar

25:52

quite recently in British history where

25:55

the wife of Boris Johnson, Kerry

25:58

Simmons, was at tax

26:01

for being involved in policy in his Downing

26:03

Street. It does seem to be that

26:05

sometimes it is controversial, but

26:07

sometimes it's expected. And that that feels like

26:09

a terrible position to put someone in simply because

26:11

of who they married. Well, indeed, but

26:14

nevertheless, Terry, isn't inevitable

26:17

that the partner of a national

26:19

leader is going to end up with

26:21

some sort of public role whether

26:23

they like it or want it. or

26:25

not. And that being the case, should

26:28

there be some sort of way they can try to

26:30

do some good with it?

26:31

I I think, yeah, there's a sort of contradiction

26:33

here because we kind of we want

26:35

our politicians to seem sort

26:38

of normal and to seem like they might be nice

26:40

people. We want them to have nice sort

26:42

of partners and families. And, you know, I

26:44

remember, you know, with sort of when Gordon

26:46

Brown was gonna be the leader and

26:48

at that point, you know, hadn't had children and people

26:50

were sort of, you know, he's got to he's all to be

26:53

married in order for him to be a proper

26:55

prime minister. And there was this kind of, you know, this expectation

26:57

that there's some kind of a weird

26:59

sort of family role model. And I think we

27:01

are kind of going back from that. We've seen a lot

27:03

less, you know, recently certainly of, like,

27:06

prime minister's children in the last

27:08

few years. I mean, obviously, you know, Boris Johnson sort

27:10

of having sort of more and more of them

27:12

who would little blonde heads, children who would turn up.

27:15

I think, yeah, there's this slight contradiction. On the one hand,

27:17

we want them to seem normal, and therefore,

27:19

we want to know about their personal lives and their family

27:21

lives. And on the other hand, we're kind of saying, well,

27:24

their spouse shouldn't have a a political

27:26

role. And and to be fair, the people who

27:28

have been sort of best at that role would probably

27:30

have been just as good as standing for election themselves

27:33

and actually, you know, doing these things

27:35

on

27:35

their own merits. I I do try

27:37

or at least I do enjoy personalizing

27:40

questions such as the somewhat. I

27:42

I do want to finally ask you which in turn

27:44

and I will start with you John. I don't know

27:46

how much thought you've ever given this prospect,

27:48

but should fate thrust you

27:50

into such a role as the partner of

27:53

somebody elected Prime Minister for

27:55

example of the United Kingdom. What what would

27:57

you do with that position?

27:59

Well, I think I think my my my my partner

28:02

will be wonderful prime minister, but I'm just far

28:04

too sensible to go anywhere near it. I

28:07

I mean, III it

28:09

would be a difficult thing to do because I

28:11

would you would be very aware of the lack of

28:13

legitimacy. And, you know, I have strong I have

28:15

strong views about certain things about how we should

28:17

manage politics in this country.

28:20

I think we should be spending more on infrastructure. I think

28:22

we should be putting a lot more housing. And

28:24

you've had if it very quiet about all of them. I

28:26

would, and that would be immensely frustrating, not least,

28:28

because that's the main source of my income. So

28:31

that would be that would be that but but but

28:33

but but it but if if if my partner is just

28:35

listening and I promise I'm not trying to limit your political

28:37

ambitions and you do whatever you want my love. And

28:39

and, Terry, the the same question to

28:41

you, how would you handle being

28:44

the It's not official role in the United

28:46

Kingdom, but but you know what I'm saying. Probably

28:48

quite bad at standing nicely,

28:50

slightly in the street and down the street looking supportive.

28:53

I would be really I quite like a

28:55

nice Can I come to Bali? Bali's Bali's nice

28:57

at this time of year, you know, and then being talking,

29:00

I have no suitable clothes. People will be at

29:02

me and and looking at what I was wearing and and

29:04

asking, you know, and going through books I'd written

29:06

up. I might sell some more books. That would

29:07

be You would almost so

29:10

can I change my art? Have you read that

29:12

reference on Page ninety

29:13

six? Oh my goodness. Did you see what she said?

29:15

You know? So there would be a downside and I mostly

29:18

would be wanting to tell people to go away and leave me

29:20

alone.

29:20

But you would be broadly quite keen

29:22

on attending conferences in tropical

29:25

unicorns during the changing months,

29:26

you know, bank occasionally, maybe if

29:28

that would be. Yeah. Alright. Yeah.

29:30

Well, with with those those powerful

29:32

incumbents to public service, that's

29:34

very nasty and John Ellich. Thank

29:36

you both very much for joining us. We will

29:38

have more on today's daily shortly. Join

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wherever you get your podcasts.

30:49

You're listening to The Daily with me

30:51

Andrew Mueller, and the nominations for the

30:53

two thousand and twenty three two thousand

30:55

and twenty two thousand and twenty three Grammy Awards,

30:57

I'm being informed have as we

30:59

are now apparently obliged to say

31:02

dropped. By way of establishing a

31:04

benchmark for their credibility as arbiters

31:06

of quality in the field of modern popular

31:08

song, Let us remind ourselves that Coldplay

31:11

and Ed Sheer in both dollar than six

31:13

quarters of letters have won eleven

31:15

of the things between them. Nevertheless,

31:17

the discourse will not conduct itself,

31:20

and I am therefore joined by monoclonal senior

31:22

correspondent and dubious Bourbels desk

31:24

chief Fernando, Augusto,

31:27

Pacheco. Fernando, as

31:29

alert listeners may have gleaned

31:31

there, I am something of a Grammy's

31:34

skeptic, but you're quite excited about

31:36

this. I am excited. And by the way, you mentioned

31:38

coldplay. Yeah. They are all nominated for

31:40

album of the year. Right. Well,

31:43

but let's not talk about them because they are not

31:45

actually the favorites. And they're also extremely

31:47

boring. Maybe I agree with you on one

31:49

and all this. But the Grammy's I I do

31:51

understand your garages with the Grammy's because,

31:54

you know, there's so many categories. It's so

31:56

hard to quantify music

31:59

quality, my opinion. I mean, I was

32:02

I was listening the whole the full hour of

32:04

for nominations awards there. There are

32:06

about a hundred categories or so, the best

32:08

spoken poetry album, the best

32:11

ragged album. There's so many of them

32:14

who's is the one for best current affairs

32:16

podcast, in which case I might start getting

32:18

interested. No. But there's one, there's a

32:20

new award this year for best, a soundtrack

32:22

for a video game. So not

32:24

quite. I've got I've

32:26

got nothing. But, you know, I think we need some excitement

32:29

here. It's been a very big year for

32:31

Beyonce. Mhmm. She basically become

32:34

with her husband. Look look at the coincidence,

32:36

the most nominated artist ever

32:39

at the Grammy's They both have eighty

32:41

eight nominations each JZ I'm talking

32:43

about. What a coincidence. Right?

32:46

And But but sounds like sequel to JZ's

32:48

best known song. I think so as well. And

32:51

we even have a little clip of her song

32:53

break my soul, which was nominated for best

32:55

song of the year, rack of the of the year,

32:57

and it's in the one of the potential

32:59

albums of the year. Let's have a listen, Beyonce,

33:02

break my song.

33:03

my own

33:17

Fernando, it means surprise

33:19

you that I have literally nothing against Beyoncé,

33:21

I would consider myself a big fan of

33:23

some of her records, but that sounds like Wakefield.

33:26

She kind of ridescort wealth. She

33:28

not didn't discover her house, but her latest

33:30

album renasens. There's a lot of dancing

33:32

electronically. She even got a nomination

33:34

in the electronic chronic FUCH is usually

33:36

a monomunator at the Airbnb categories

33:39

or so. But you have tough

33:41

competition, Andrew, the album of the Year.

33:44

And I'm happy to say that the Grammy's, they

33:46

are known for being a little bit conservative of

33:48

their choice. You don't. So Exactly.

33:51

But for example, you have someone like Bad Bunny,

33:53

Unverano Singe, which I believe

33:55

is the first Spanish language album

33:58

to receive. nomination. You

34:00

had artists, you know, from Latin America

34:02

there are before, but with songs mainly in

34:04

English. So that's been a huge

34:06

change. and Arba is in there.

34:08

That's a surprise. Well, it is a surprise.

34:10

I understood that they were no longer still going.

34:13

Well, the the Grammy's loved their

34:15

latest album voyage. which I I know

34:17

it's been a while, but, you know, the Grammy's, they have this

34:19

kind of funny date thing.

34:21

Harry styles as well a huge year for

34:24

him for him. it it's going to be really

34:26

tough looking here at the nominations. If

34:28

if you were asked for your vote on best

34:30

album to whom would you be distributing at

34:32

god. Of course, my heart would say,

34:34

Arba, but you know what? I kind of feel sorry

34:36

for Beyonce even though she's the most You're so sorry

34:39

for Beyonce. I'm so sorry. Okay. even though

34:41

she is the most nominated artist ever,

34:43

she never won album of the year.

34:45

And that's the prize that everybody

34:48

wants. So I think

34:50

it it it would put you up there with Millie Vanilla.

34:52

Exactly. Exactly. And and I have

34:54

to say, Andrew, it's been a bad year for country music.

34:57

I'm really sorry. They they usually

34:59

do well. They usually go for album of

35:01

the year or even record of the year, but

35:03

this year has been quite Polly, do

35:05

you like Brandy Carlisle? No.

35:07

Nothing at all against Brandy Carlisle has made

35:09

some fine records. Is she at the races

35:11

investor She's at the races, not

35:14

for best album, but she she is actually -- Oh,

35:16

there you go. -- in this silent day, so perhaps that

35:18

could be your vote. It could be if anybody

35:20

asked which let's face they won't. I understand,

35:22

however, that you are especially excited

35:24

about a nomination for best new artists. Yes.

35:27

I am indeed. And and by the way, I'm really happy

35:29

for best new artists this year because they've generally

35:31

chose kind of new

35:34

artists. Indeed, because sometimes they nominate

35:36

people in this category, who has been working the

35:38

music industry for years or decades.

35:40

So it doesn't really make sense. But

35:42

we have a Brazilian singer there, a knitter,

35:45

which I mean, this is this is Aaron's Homefield

35:48

umpiring on your part, isn't it? Exactly.

35:50

So my vote will be for her. But it's quite

35:52

international cat the category as well. Man is

35:54

king. the eurovision winners for

35:57

Italy. They they

35:59

were bad. They were bad. Americans

36:01

are loving that. I mean, very hard for eurovision

36:04

track to to to be on the chance, but they

36:06

did manage that. Wet lag

36:08

from Britain, dummy from

36:10

France. So I I like that the Grammy's ever becoming

36:12

a little bit more international, and they say

36:14

a little bit. Fernando, Augusto

36:17

Pacheco, thank you for joining us. Finally,

36:19

on today's show carnival celebrations bring

36:21

to mind noisy and colorful open

36:23

air processions of music and dance.

36:26

But Carnival's history contains more complicated

36:28

and sometimes even sinister aspects

36:31

A new exhibition in Cambridge explores

36:33

all of this through the work and curation of

36:35

three first generation Diaspora Caribbean

36:37

painters, Monocles, Sofie monahan

36:39

combs, went along to find out more.

36:46

Well, in the first piece, I

36:48

have to say, my first impression of

36:51

Carnival on. And that goes back

36:53

to, you know, when something

36:55

impressed you so much that your

36:57

your psyche is caught with it.

36:59

It's like an etched into it.

37:02

And that is the first impression,

37:04

I have a kind of, as a total, more

37:07

Internet out for Spain, where

37:09

scared me. unexcited

37:12

me at the same time as a sort of mixed emotions.

37:14

And that, of course, later on,

37:16

I've begun to understand really

37:20

what what was happening. This

37:22

is great deal of depth, almost something

37:24

very primal of what carnival. And

37:26

that led me to look looking further

37:29

into it. And for example, of

37:31

course, it has very strong religious basis

37:33

and the strong spiritual basis as well.

37:36

Because could you imagine institutions

37:40

of life that people suffer, you

37:42

know, that changes in their lives. and

37:45

all the things that's happened, you know,

37:47

especially under the system at the time of

37:49

the colonialism or as well. It wasn't

37:51

easy, it was hard. And then, of course,

37:54

cannibal. It's explosion.

37:58

You know, people

37:58

just like cause,

37:59

you know, it's like a a

38:02

remedy, you know, to get your

38:04

balance again in life and for them to

38:06

be to realize who they are, humans.

38:09

John Lyons is a poet and painter.

38:12

He's one of three artists behind the curation

38:14

of a new exhibition at Kettles yard

38:16

in

38:16

Cambridge. Paint like

38:18

the swallow singer's calypso, impressions

38:20

of Carnival brings together works of John

38:22

Lyons, Arrolloyd, and pool dash,

38:25

alongside pieces chosen from the Fitzwiddie

38:27

Museum and Catawizard archive. All

38:30

of the works reflect the history and themes of

38:32

Carnival, from the pagan rituals

38:34

of ancient Egypt through European traditions

38:36

of Bakinalia to London's Nottingham Hill.

38:39

for John carnival at its heart serves

38:41

as

38:41

a great equalizer. And

38:45

what we know now, you can see

38:47

This is linked to mixing of cultures and

38:49

also people because there's a lot of

38:52

mixed races in people in Vietnam.

38:55

There's a great level on a carnival day.

38:58

Right? It's when you see the beauty

39:00

of this. You know, when carbon,

39:02

everybody is on industry. They're having

39:04

a great time. And

39:05

That's why you remember

39:07

Kanye, so I think. For another of

39:09

the artists involved in this exhibition, Paul

39:11

Dash, choosing pieces to hang

39:13

alongside their own works, proved complicated.

39:21

The process of selecting the world

39:23

nobody wanted to say

39:25

alongside our thesis was

39:27

laborious. And

39:29

I have to say that lot of the slides

39:31

that we saw, a lot of the images we saw,

39:33

where there are hundreds. We didn't

39:36

go to all of them, but it's not a hundred thousand.

39:38

But, you know, those that we

39:40

did see were largely very

39:43

European or based on European traditions,

39:45

very Eurocentric. There

39:47

are very few pieces from artist,

39:50

by artist from other cultures. So

39:52

I was frustrating initially. And

39:54

after the first two visits, to

39:58

the collection of images.

39:59

I almost felt panic was

40:02

tricky. I was like, are you gonna get images from this

40:04

from these two collections

40:07

that would be appropriate because, you know,

40:09

I suppose

40:11

you came to it when I clicked with mind

40:14

expecting to see particular kind of imagery,

40:17

and they weren't there. But then

40:19

over time, you began to I think that came up

40:21

with someone brought in an image They might have

40:23

been hard or a guy or the senator

40:25

would also mean to that. And I

40:28

I guess, oh, yeah. That's a possibility. And

40:30

then gradually, you began to

40:32

see things differently, you know,

40:35

on this business of expecting images.

40:39

It's a very sad outcome within the two collections

40:42

to confirm to what we are talking

40:44

expectations that was set to one

40:46

side. It looks like the word for

40:48

what it was. The final effect is

40:50

the juxtaposition of works from across

40:52

the ages that sing together as they tell

40:54

the story of Carnival in this unique way.

40:57

Johning creates fast depth in his work

40:59

with striking use of color. He says

41:01

that while other painters might use an artist's

41:03

palette, he prefers a whole trity of

41:05

color choices.

41:06

What happens with me? I mean,

41:08

I think. It's quite interesting. I

41:11

mean, I actually I never really

41:13

I know I know the theme. I know what I

41:15

want to to express, but

41:18

I'm not sure how exactly

41:22

But because I have the experience, I

41:25

love lion's sheep

41:27

clothing. I think of it as a language.

41:30

you know, it liberated me

41:32

from look my mind up because this

41:34

isn't because I'm a writer as well. I

41:36

think of is the language, the

41:38

visual language. It's based on line

41:40

shape, color texture on flat surface.

41:43

Right? and absolutely every

41:46

piece of work, every art work

41:49

in terms of painting, old one, is

41:51

you have to use all the elements. So

41:53

it's a language. So that immediately liberates

41:56

me, you know, in terms of

41:58

using and because I write

41:59

as well, I think, embarrassed

42:02

me to use paint as a language.

42:05

On the walls

42:05

of Des gallery, three artists have used

42:08

their own language and The result

42:10

is they have found a way

42:11

to paint like the swallow thing's calypso.

42:16

John Lyons finishing that report by

42:18

Sophie Monahan Combs. The exhibition at Kettles

42:20

yard is now open until February nineteenth

42:23

two thousand and twenty three. is all for this

42:25

edition of the monocle daily. Thanks to our guest

42:27

today, Terry Steersney, John Ellich, and Fernando

42:29

Augusto Pacheco. Today show was produced

42:31

by Lillian Foster. and research by Emily Sands.

42:34

Our sound engineer was Calum McLean. I'm Andrew

42:36

Mueller here in London. The Daily Returns at the

42:38

same time tomorrow. Thanks for listening.