0:00

You're listening to the Monocle Daily first

0:02

broadcast on the sixth of December twenty

0:04

twenty two on Monaco twenty four.

0:05

Latvia takes a Russian television

0:08

station off the air, a Russian opposition

0:10

station. The power of the Donald

0:12

Trump endorsement is tested against

0:14

the voters of Georgia And how much

0:16

would you want to venture into New York City

0:19

Subway armed with cheese on a string

0:21

and a baseball bat? I'm Andrew Mueller.

0:23

The monocle daily starts now.

0:37

Hello, and welcome to the Monocle Daily coming

0:39

to you from our studios here at Midori House

0:41

in London. I'm Andrew My guest Rebecca

0:43

Tinsley and Lou Lucas will discuss all

0:45

the day's big stories and will look at a

0:47

new documentary, chronicling a

0:49

mission to Mars. Stay tuned. All

0:51

that and more coming up right here on the monocle

0:53

daily. This

1:00

is Monocle daily. I'm Andrew Mueller, and I

1:02

am joined today by Rebecca Tinsley, journalist

1:04

and founder of Network for Africa and by

1:07

Lew Lucas, senior partner at Cignan

1:09

global and a former US diplomat. Hello

1:11

to you both? Hello. We

1:13

we will do a little bit of World Cup related

1:16

light introductory banter, are we all delighted

1:18

for Morocco who have just turf

1:20

Spain out on penalties? Absolutely.

1:23

Totally. What what have you both got

1:25

against Spain? Nothing, but I always like

1:27

to root for the underdog and That

1:29

that sounds sounds downright unAmerican root.

1:33

i'm

1:34

I'm delighted because football

1:36

means so much in Africa and,

1:39

you know, These

1:41

folks have got enough problems as it is,

1:43

and this will just mean a great

1:45

deal to

1:45

them. And puts so

1:48

many smiles on so many faces.

1:50

Except in Spain, obviously. Yeah. Whatever.

1:53

Whatever. I I am myself mildly

1:56

concerned that as we broadcast, Morocco,

1:58

goes in the process of being burned to the ground

2:00

in the celebrations. But, yes,

2:02

I I think it is it is quite an evening former

2:04

rock and football. So congratulations

2:07

to our mini Moroccan listeners and condolences

2:09

to such Spanish ones as we still have

2:11

left. We will start the show

2:13

proper with Russia now early in Russia's

2:16

invasion of Ukraine. Independent

2:18

Russian broadcaster TV reign took

2:20

itself off the year before Russian authorities

2:22

made the decision for it. TV

2:24

reign checked out with a sarcastic broadcast

2:26

of Swan Lake, a favorite placeholder

2:29

of Soviet state television at times of

2:31

crisis, and reestablished itself

2:33

in Latvia. Now TV

2:35

reign has had its plugs pulled by Latvia's

2:37

media regulator who have accused TV

2:40

reign of broadcasting content. sympathetic

2:42

to Moscow, which if it was the

2:44

case, would be quite the editorial turnaround.

2:47

A few weeks ago for the Daily, we spoke to

2:49

TV Reign's editor in chief, Tianziadka,

2:51

I asked him how different reigns coverage

2:53

is from Russian state TV.

2:56

Well, it's like the different different

2:59

railroads. but our

3:01

reality is a true reality. And

3:03

the reality in the broadcasting of

3:05

Russian state TV is a

3:08

fake reality. We're not We

3:10

are showing to our audience what is actually

3:12

happening there. We have people on

3:14

the ground. We have experts from Ukraine.

3:17

We talk to Ukrainian politicians, to

3:19

Ukrainian political scientists,

3:22

etcetera, etcetera. So we just give

3:24

our viewers the real picture of this

3:26

terrible war. and Russian

3:28

state TV is, unfortunately,

3:31

is nothing more than propaganda,

3:34

and they are built in the picture

3:36

of the world for their viewers, the picture

3:38

which is not existing

3:40

in reality.

3:41

That was the editor in chief of TV,

3:44

Rain speaking to me a while back.

3:46

Lew, first of all, it's it's

3:48

quite hard to know exactly what has gone

3:50

on here. There are reports suggesting that

3:52

TV Reign weren't as cooperative

3:55

with the regulator as they might have been.

3:57

But nevertheless, does it sound like the Latvian

3:59

regulators might have wrong end of the

4:01

stick here or does that fear have a case?

4:04

Well, the the Kremlin spokesperson in

4:06

the wake of this news announced that

4:08

this just shows that foreign states

4:10

are no rear than Russia. And I think

4:12

what regardless of what the reasons

4:14

were for closing down the station, and you're right, it's

4:16

a little bit murky what exactly happened.

4:19

they've given the Russians a great propaganda

4:21

talking point here to say, look, in the

4:23

so called free west, they're also shutting

4:25

down radio stations or TV stations.

4:28

that they don't agree with. And it's

4:30

unfortunate. But again, I say that

4:32

not knowing exactly why they shut it down.

4:35

Rebecca Latvia, of course, has

4:38

what we might understatedly call a

4:40

history where Russia is concerned. Latvia

4:42

also has a huge ethnic Russian

4:44

population, about twenty five percent of

4:46

the country. are the regulators

4:48

and by extension the Latvian government

4:51

being sensible erring on the side of

4:53

caution here?

4:53

They're probably not, but bear

4:55

this in mind that TV

4:58

reign turned up at an

5:00

appeal panel -- Mhmm. -- if not today,

5:03

yesterday. And they turned up without

5:05

a translator or an interpreter and

5:07

insisted on speaking in Russian.

5:08

Which is not not tremendously

5:11

tactful.

5:11

This is the arrogance and the colonialism

5:13

that is symptomatic of

5:16

the Russian footprint in the Balkans,

5:18

in the Baltics

5:20

in the the Stans. It is

5:22

just not very clever. Having said that,

5:25

I do kind of worry that

5:27

at some point Putin may

5:30

treat all of this as a

5:31

sort of Reichstag fire or a gulf

5:33

of Tonkin as a pretext

5:35

to go in and, you know, rescue the

5:37

Russian speakers. So it could be

5:39

an on goal. Lou,

5:41

would the sensible way forward, therefore,

5:44

be for some other European

5:46

country with perhaps less of a history

5:48

with Russia to say to TV, Raynald Wright,

5:50

you can come and set up shop here. Well,

5:52

if they're I mean, if they're seen as troublemakers, I'm

5:55

not sure other Western countries will want

5:57

them at this point. And and again, if if if

5:59

they are, in fact, sort of

6:01

pivoting in their reporting style and

6:03

becoming more of a pro Kremlin, pro

6:05

Putin outlet than I don't think

6:07

any Western European countries will

6:09

will really want them. There doesn't seem to be that

6:11

much of a case for saying they are pro Kremlin

6:14

or pro Putin, though. There was a thing

6:16

where they They showed Crimea

6:18

on a map as part of Russia, and

6:20

there was a thing where one of their

6:22

correspondence subsequently sacked used

6:24

the word hour in reference to

6:27

Russian forces. But do either of

6:29

those sound like license

6:31

revoking transgressions? No. That I

6:33

mean, any of themselves know, which

6:35

makes me think there must be something else going on

6:37

here for the African government to take

6:39

this action, which by the way, then

6:41

sets them up for accusations of censorship.

6:44

Yeah. Latvia's regulator

6:46

has suggested there is a

6:48

a pattern of behavior here, Rebecca.

6:50

The the line being everybody must follow

6:52

Latvia laws and respect

6:54

them. Yeah, quite. But there is

6:56

something additional apart

6:58

from the map showing Crimea and

7:01

using the the word r our

7:03

army. They're also reputed

7:05

to have been talking about raising money

7:07

for the army. And I think that

7:09

that that is a a red line. And

7:11

I I don't blame the lapfins for being a

7:13

little annoyed at that. And is

7:15

there therefore, Lou, anything we

7:17

could about and by We, I mean,

7:19

the Western will be doing

7:21

more to encourage support,

7:24

perhaps even fund Russian independent

7:26

media because TV Reign's case, and

7:28

it's important note they I mean, it's not like

7:30

they will be completely exposed.

7:32

They will continue broadcasting on YouTube

7:34

where I suspect most of black, in

7:36

fact, all of their viewers in Russia. are

7:39

watching them via via VPNs,

7:41

but should more be done to

7:43

encourage such independent slash

7:45

opposition Russian media as there is.

7:48

Yeah. I think it's important that the Russian people

7:50

get a realistic sense of what's happening

7:52

in Ukraine and how the war is

7:54

progressing or progressing as

7:56

far as Russia's concern really. So

7:59

I think it is important and and, you

8:01

know, I think Western governments have always

8:03

supported independence free

8:05

journalism in in for in

8:08

previously authoritarian states. Wouldn't

8:10

it be nice though if we had a

8:12

government here in Britain that

8:14

was giving the financial support to

8:16

the BBC World Service, Russian

8:18

Service that it that it surely deserves

8:21

because, you

8:21

know, that The BBC World

8:23

Service all through the cold war did a

8:25

fantastic job of of

8:27

bringing, you know, our truth. to

8:30

them and it seems to me, yeah, a

8:32

wonderful form of soft power and

8:34

utterly stupid to be cutting

8:36

their budget.

8:37

Well, indeed, so let's move

8:39

along now and look at LuluCom's home

8:42

country where the concluding chapter of the

8:44

two thousand and twenty two midterm elections

8:46

is occurring. Georgia is

8:48

voting today in a runoff contest for one of

8:50

the state's US senate states. The

8:53

incumbent is Democratic senator Rafael

8:55

Warnerque, a Baptist pastor who made

8:57

history in two thousand and twenty when he

8:59

became the first black Democrat to be elected

9:01

to the senate by a former state of the

9:03

confederacy. His Republican

9:05

opponent today, Herschel Walker, was

9:07

an outstanding college football running

9:09

back at the University of Georgia and later

9:11

enjoyed a affectable career in the

9:13

NFL, but has frequently given the

9:15

impression during this campaign that his

9:17

helmet's provided insufficient protection.

9:19

Louis, we will we will look at

9:21

the at the manifold defects of Churchill

9:23

Walker as a candidate and arguably a

9:25

human being shortly. But, you know, first

9:27

of all, how important is

9:29

this race to the Democrats? It would be the

9:31

difference between having fifty one senators

9:34

and fifty senators plus the vice president.

9:36

Well, it's very important because the

9:38

Democrats will control the Senate either

9:40

way. Mhmm. But with fifty one seats, what that

9:42

does, it gives them control of all the committees.

9:44

So right now in a fifty fifty senate,

9:46

the Republicans and Democrats have a power

9:49

sharing arrangement by which they're

9:51

equal numbers of both parties on all the important on

9:53

all the committees So it's much

9:55

harder to to push a law or

9:57

legislation or a nominee for a

9:59

position out of a committee. With the

10:01

fifty one forty nine senate, the Democrats

10:04

will completely control the committees, will have more people

10:06

on the committees, and it'll be much

10:08

easier from a process point of view for them to

10:10

get things done. A a side

10:12

note too that Lou will also be

10:14

important for the Democrats that if they

10:16

have fifty one seats, not fifty

10:19

Joe Manchin, the Democratic senator

10:21

from West Virginia, a man, who we

10:23

can charitably say has ideas of his

10:25

own might be able to make himself less of

10:27

a nuisance. Yes. I mean, that's another thing

10:29

exactly. So Joe mentioned was

10:31

able to hold

10:33

up or shape if you wanna be charitable.

10:35

A lot of the administration's agenda for

10:37

the last two years, he will lose

10:39

some of that power by being the

10:41

fifty first vote instead of the fiftieth

10:44

vote. shape is a very a very

10:46

very diplomatic way of putting it, Lou. Well done.

10:50

Rebecca, not for the first time in very

10:52

recent American history, this does

10:54

look like one of those races where you

10:56

would assume or indeed hope

10:59

that the question it

11:01

it sort of goes beyond whether or not

11:03

you agree with the politics of the

11:05

individual candidates given that

11:07

one of individual candidates

11:10

is just plain riotously unqualified,

11:12

and yet polls are extremely close.

11:14

Hershel Walker could win this thing.

11:16

Yes. But I don't think

11:19

that we and Britain should be smug about

11:21

this because we have Oh,

11:22

we can't be old.

11:23

No. We we we

11:25

have also, you know, excess

11:27

that we have shown how degenerate

11:30

our our voters are in that they've

11:32

preferred a clown They've

11:35

preferred to be entertained by

11:37

someone like Boris rather

11:39

than go for sensible boring

11:41

people. you know, this is a you know,

11:43

we have no grounds to to feel

11:45

pleased with ourselves because this is

11:47

a country in twenty

11:49

six that decided why would it want to be part

11:51

of the most successful trading block

11:53

ever in the history of the world

11:55

and and exited. And, you

11:57

know, we we we elect people

11:59

like Boris,

11:59

like

12:00

Reese Mogg. We

12:03

love people like Faraj. So

12:05

it is a sign of how to generate

12:07

the West is. III

12:09

fear that we still want to

12:11

be entertained, that we are

12:13

so jaded, that that

12:15

we're not prepared to go for

12:17

people who may be less

12:18

exciting like Joe Biden,

12:22

but actually do a pretty good job.

12:24

There's another element to this as well, though,

12:26

I think, Lou, which is IIII

12:29

definitely take the point that it has afflicted

12:31

politics outside the United

12:33

States. as well. not just that people

12:35

want an entertainer in politics,

12:37

and I suppose you could apply that description to

12:39

Hersha Walker. It's that

12:41

thing of it it's well to

12:43

to borrow from Randy Newman that he may

12:45

be a full, but he's our full

12:47

line. I mean, Hershel

12:49

Walker is politically manifestly unqualified.

12:52

If you actually put what is

12:54

known of his personal life

12:56

and removed it from the political

12:58

context and described this person to any

13:00

Christian American conservative, they would

13:02

reply no. He sounds like a completely

13:04

dreadful man. But because he's

13:06

the Republican candidate, they'll vote for

13:08

him anyway. Yes. Except he

13:10

is so manifestly unqualified and

13:13

and so sort of tortured with his personal

13:15

history that there are Republicans who

13:17

are not voting for him in this special election.

13:19

And I think that's why I think Warrnock

13:22

will win. Hershel Walker will not win this

13:24

this election today. but

13:26

it is because he is such a

13:28

terrible candidate that many Republicans

13:30

in Georgia just they won't

13:32

even hold their nose and vote for him. And

13:34

they did during the general election a month ago

13:36

because there were other people on the ballot. They

13:38

were voting for governor and other offices,

13:41

but they can't bring themselves to to

13:43

wait in line and vote just to pull the

13:45

the lever for Hershel Walker. The the

13:47

obvious rebuke to that, though, Lou, is

13:49

that Georgia, admittedly, one

13:51

small district of it, is state which has

13:53

sent to the House of Representatives Marjorie

13:55

Taylor Green who is a certifiable

13:57

dingbat. Yes.

14:01

Yes. But I yes. And

14:03

I think but the the dynamics are

14:05

different for the House elections in these very small

14:07

districts versus the statewide Senate

14:09

races. But, yes, the very good point.

14:11

He he he is not the only dingbat

14:13

politician, Georgia. But

14:15

I think Andrew, you're I I sort of felt

14:17

what you were getting at is a a broader

14:20

point about

14:21

the fact that even dingbats

14:23

can still get

14:25

the votes of large numbers

14:28

of people who don't actually have

14:30

a class interest in voting for those

14:32

people because they're still voting on so

14:34

called values. And

14:36

this is where I fear the

14:38

democrats may still have a

14:40

problem is that they're still failing

14:42

to

14:42

reach those people that

14:45

Trump was able to reach so effectively

14:47

in twenty sixteen. But

14:50

to explore

14:52

that point further, Luke.

14:54

If you think of this as a contest

14:56

of values, doesn't the

14:58

fact that Hershel Walker is getting any

15:00

traction at all here? and

15:02

suggest that the values

15:04

are being trumped of phrase

15:07

we will come back to by tribalism. I

15:09

mean, Rafael will knock is a literal

15:11

Baptist preacher. Yes. But,

15:13

I mean, to Rebecca's point, the

15:15

argument that you would make for as a

15:17

Republican voter is If I

15:19

vote for Hershel Walker, there's more of a chance

15:21

that conservative judges will end up

15:23

on the bench to shape the laws in a

15:25

way that that align with my

15:27

evangelical beliefs. Right?

15:29

Which which you don't get with reverend

15:31

warnock? Even if they don't

15:33

necessarily align with Hersha Walker's

15:36

known practices -- Yeah. Rebecca,

15:38

one other thing this is a test of,

15:40

of course, is the enduring

15:42

electoral appeal or otherwise of

15:44

for the president Donald Trump, who

15:46

has been So far, at least, an

15:48

enthusiastic endorser of

15:50

Hersha Walker should walk or lose this thing. I

15:52

dare say Trump will say that he'd never met

15:54

him and maybe he did, but never much

15:56

cared for him. But will

15:58

this be an important test of this? If

16:00

Churchill Walker does not get up here, do

16:02

do we start to see that

16:04

kind of inching away from Trump that

16:06

was perceptible after the midterms

16:08

accelerating somewhat.

16:09

There's a lot of folk with egg on their

16:12

faces because they've predicted the

16:14

demise of Donald Trump. Oh, me.

16:16

Many times sitting sitting in this

16:18

chair. I'm I'm not one

16:20

of them because, you know, I I

16:22

spend three months of every year in the

16:24

states. And I regard my

16:26

time there really as a kind of anthropological

16:29

expedition talking to as many

16:31

people as Monocle. And I I

16:33

fear that Trump still

16:36

has the x factor. He is

16:38

still capable of reaching people.

16:40

I also think that There's a lot of fuss

16:42

about Ronda Santos -- Mhmm. -- from

16:44

Florida. But I have a

16:46

feeling that may fade, and

16:48

I'm interested to hear what the ambassador has

16:50

to say about that. Because

16:52

as far as I can see, DeSantis is

16:54

actually rather dour and charmless and

16:56

boring. And the

16:59

media, I I just have a feeling that they

17:01

will coalesce

17:01

again around Trump because he just is he

17:04

makes really good television. And

17:06

This is depressingly true. He is

17:08

box office. And

17:09

also, you know, he he

17:11

said something outrageous

17:12

about the the US constitution a

17:14

couple of days ago. And

17:17

almost no

17:18

Republicans actually said

17:20

anything. They were mute on this subject. In

17:22

other words, they still fear that

17:25

they have the base -- Mhmm. -- and the

17:27

donors who are who

17:29

are are Trumpites. And

17:31

and so they they are self censoring.

17:33

They may be appalled by him.

17:35

But, you know, if they see him edging up

17:36

in the polls, we they're not

17:39

gonna say a word. And then just finally

17:41

on this subject, Lou, what do you think?

17:43

Do you bind to this

17:45

idea that DeSantis is the future of

17:47

the Republican Party Trump is

17:49

now the ebbing past? I

17:51

think Trump is the ebbing past. I'm not sure

17:53

DeSantis is the future. He certainly is sort of being

17:55

portrayed as the future right now, but as

17:57

Rebecca said, he he's actually he

17:59

doesn't enjoy being with people.

18:01

He's very dour and sort of

18:03

unfriendly. And I think that will

18:05

eventually come out, I assume.

18:07

He's the big Republican donors. Some

18:09

big donors are lining up behind him. He's

18:11

got endless sources of funding right now if he does

18:13

decide to run for president, which I think will. But the

18:16

the danger is that he runs

18:18

and Mike Pence runs and Pompeo

18:20

and Nikki Haley and a bunch of

18:22

other people and they

18:24

split the anti Trump vote, and this is

18:26

what happened in twenty sixteen. And

18:28

Trump ends up with a nomination because

18:30

everyone else sort of takes each

18:32

other down. And we'll and

18:34

we'll laugh about this in two years when Hershel

18:36

Walker is Vice President-elect. But let's

18:37

And a final word if I made,

18:39

and that is my fear that the Democrat

18:42

still quite capable of screwing

18:43

this up as the Labour

18:45

Party is in Brazil. That is a constant

18:47

of American history Let's let's

18:50

move along to Sudan, and it

18:52

is as traditional a part of the coup

18:54

d'etat as the reassuring address to the

18:56

nation by the solemn officer, detecting gold

18:58

raid and by ostentatiously armed

19:00

troops. The announcement of a

19:02

transitional government and accompanying

19:04

plans to either introduce or re

19:06

assert democracy at some often

19:08

tantalizingly unspecified date.

19:10

Sudan's army made pretty much this

19:12

speech on seizing power in two thousand and

19:14

nineteen, then did agree a sort

19:16

of power sharing setup and

19:18

then seized power again about a

19:20

year ago. But now, Sudan's

19:22

military has agreed another two year

19:24

transitional period with civilian

19:26

leaders. Rebecca, first of

19:28

all, aren't we clear on how this

19:30

is going to work if

19:32

it works? not gonna work at

19:34

all. Last I spent

19:36

another six or 6 minutes here, Rebecca. Give us

19:38

something. III

19:40

spent

19:40

yesterday evening with

19:42

a whole bunch of Sudanese

19:45

diaspora who live here in the

19:47

UK, and they were united in

19:49

feeling that this this peace agreement

19:51

isn't isn't worth the paper it's written

19:53

on. I, myself, have been involved in

19:56

sedan issues for the past seventeen

19:58

years since I visited Dalfour

20:00

at the height of the killing in two thousand

20:02

four.

20:02

And I've seen a lot of peace

20:04

deals come and go And the thing

20:06

to to to recognize, first of

20:08

all, is the Sudanese military are

20:11

a bit like the deep state in

20:13

Turkey

20:13

or or Egypt. The

20:15

Sudanese military have their tentacles

20:17

in every bit of the economy. There

20:19

is just no way that

20:21

they are gonna

20:22

let go. The other thing about the Sudanese

20:25

military is that they

20:25

are past masters at spinning

20:28

out

20:28

every negotiation. Mhmm. They

20:30

understand the the international

20:33

community so well so

20:35

they they drag out these negotiations.

20:37

And from what I gather, from

20:39

somebody I was talking to last night who was actually

20:41

one of the negotiators. The

20:44

Americans reached the point where they just said,

20:46

oh, for goodness sake. Let's get

20:48

a deal. and the soonies were saying

20:50

yes, but it's not gonna be a very good deal.

20:52

But understandably, that the Americans

20:54

wanted to go home for Christmas. and

20:56

let's be honest, Kartoum is is a

20:58

dump. You wouldn't want to stay there.

21:00

So the Sudanese, as ever,

21:02

the military, managed to talk

21:04

it out. and they've gone for a

21:06

deal which just is is not gonna

21:08

work partially because there

21:11

is no mechanism for

21:13

justice. And the people on the

21:15

street really do want justice.

21:17

It isn't just about a

21:19

hundred odd

21:20

demonstrators having

21:22

been killed since the most

21:24

recent coup. It's

21:26

about all of

21:28

the peripheral regions

21:30

of Sudan, which are basically

21:32

black African, against the

21:35

the nilotic tribes --

21:37

Mhmm. -- around Qatoum who are Arab

21:39

and who self identify as Arab

21:41

and Muslim, and who, frankly,

21:44

hate the black Africans. And

21:46

for that reason, they've killed two

21:48

million in the in the

21:50

struggle to form South

21:52

They've killed at least half a million

21:54

in Darfur, but nobody bothers to

21:56

count because, hey, they're black.

21:58

And the violent

21:59

continues in Dufour, Blue Nile, South

22:02

Cordofan. This

22:03

agreement addresses

22:05

absolutely none of those core

22:08

issues. about where the

22:08

power is in Sudan, and

22:11

it remains in the hands of the

22:13

military and it remains

22:14

in Khartoum. Well, possibly

22:16

for all those reasons, Louis, the people

22:18

in the street, the protesters, the pro

22:20

democracy protesters are so far very

22:22

much not buying it, but

22:24

for what it may be worth, and I'm about

22:26

to ask you what it may be worth. General Abdul

22:29

Fatir al Buran has said that the military

22:31

belongs in the barracks. which is echoing a

22:33

chant of the protesters and

22:35

is obviously the case in a

22:37

functional democracy. But do we

22:39

think he actually believes that?

22:41

Well, I mean, Rebecca

22:43

knows much more about Suzanne than I do, but

22:45

III think there's there's many

22:48

reasons to be skeptical about

22:50

his statements and about this agreement. And I think we've

22:52

seen over and over again, not just in

22:54

Sudan, but across much of Africa.

22:57

and we were chatting about this just before

23:00

the show, leaders

23:02

or coalitions or groups of leaders

23:04

who just cannot fathom giving

23:06

up power. once you get into

23:08

power and it's very hard. Many

23:10

people in Africa, many leaders find it very

23:12

difficult to give it up. I

23:13

mean, Rebecca, it's a it's a huge

23:16

cultural change within

23:16

a military that you're asking it to make

23:18

for veteran, for worst, to to actually get it

23:20

to understand that that

23:23

in a functional state the

23:25

military does. serve an elected

23:27

civilian government. It's it's quite difficult.

23:29

Those examples you mentioned, Turkey

23:31

and Egypt. And it is that thing that

23:33

Lou says, they they get a taste for being in

23:36

and it's it's it it almost

23:38

starts to seem in a front to their dignity

23:40

that they they have to give this up to some Yahoo

23:42

in a suit who the people have elected. And

23:44

their bank accounts I mean, you really

23:45

have to always factor this in with

23:48

Sudan that they are busy, smuggling

23:50

goal to Russia. they

23:53

they literally control the economy

23:55

in Sudan, which is

23:57

an absolute basket case, of course,

23:59

you

23:59

know, sort of four hundred percent

24:02

inflation, things like that. What was

24:04

not helpful was that the

24:06

UK actually invited BOHA!

24:09

to her majesty's funeral when, actually,

24:11

if we had wanted to put

24:12

pressure on this guy, we would have

24:15

been

24:15

applying a travel ban on

24:17

him. and we would have been freezing his bank accounts along with other

24:19

all the other scoundrels. And

24:22

as a miserable

24:23

appendix to

24:25

all of this, I would like to make

24:27

a prediction that I actually think there may

24:29

be civil war in Sudan between

24:33

the various rebel factions because they

24:35

are quite as bad as the military

24:37

that you mentioned, Andrew, in that

24:39

their egos

24:40

are enormous and that they are

24:42

corrupt. and they're all fighting each other.

24:45

And I I'm afraid I see

24:47

really quite miserable times ahead.

24:49

All that being the case and just a final

24:51

thought on this one. Lou, what's

24:53

your read on why outside

24:55

powers very much including your former

24:57

colleagues at the US State Department

24:59

seem quite enthused. about this deal? Is

25:01

it just that they realize or think that

25:04

this is the only thing going? Or

25:06

are they being somewhat prone to

25:08

wishful thinking? Probably both. I mean,

25:10

probably wishful thinking probably, you

25:12

know, a halfway good

25:14

deal is better than no deal.

25:16

maybe they believe that they can get

25:18

the deal signed and then continue to apply pressure on

25:20

the government or or in the military

25:23

to to stick by the by its terms. I mean

25:25

who knows or maybe its only get home for Christmas,

25:27

you know, all of the above. Well,

25:29

let's return now to the United

25:31

States where there is exciting news for

25:33

any daily listeners or

25:35

indeed who knows daily panelists contemplating

25:37

a career change and nurturing

25:39

a blind furious loathing of rats

25:41

New York City is seeking what it calls a

25:44

director of rodent mitigation

25:46

and has had an amount of fun with the

25:48

advertisement suggesting that the ideal

25:50

candidate is, and I, quote, highly

25:52

motivated somewhat bloodthirsty

25:54

and possesses among other attributes,

25:57

swashbuckling attitude, crafty

25:59

humor, and a general order of badassery,

26:01

Rebecca, that sounds like you were you tempted?

26:03

Oh, yes. Absolutely. The interesting

26:06

thing

26:06

is how often in this in

26:08

these situations, one turns to Joseph Stalin

26:10

for inspiration. And I take

26:13

you back to the siege of

26:15

Lennon rats. We we could have fun clipping that out of context.

26:17

Thank you. How about I take you back

26:19

to the siege of Leningrad when there were

26:22

vast rats. feeding on

26:24

human bodies

26:25

all over the streets.

26:27

And what Stalin did apparently

26:29

was that he got every stray

26:32

cat in

26:32

Russia and put them on a train, which actually

26:34

was sent to Lennon. They opened

26:36

the doors. The cats, thousands of

26:38

them ran out, and that

26:40

was the end of the rats. So

26:41

Do you then not have a problem

26:43

with enormous cat? Doesn't

26:47

want a cat I

26:49

I really The the the the the They were all for

26:51

trains full of dogs and then other

26:53

trains full of whatever eats dogs

26:55

and and mayhem. Lou, what would what

26:57

would your be approach be? I I volunteer my yorks

27:00

for charity or two. Good rat

27:02

chasing. Well, first of all, I love

27:04

that they call the job the

27:06

director of Rotterdam mitigation. When this is if

27:08

you look at the advertisements and the statements by the

27:10

mayor of New York, this is a hundred percent about killing

27:12

rats. This is mitigation here. This is this

27:14

is death and destruction that they're living. And and I quote

27:17

further to lead from the front using

27:19

hands on techniques to

27:21

terminate rodents with authority and efficiency. It

27:23

rather suggests that they are expecting this

27:25

person to strangle them personally. The

27:28

mayor says this will be a moonshot mindset.

27:31

this is like putting a man on the moon. We have to

27:33

be creative about how we do this and how

27:35

we kill all these rats. So

27:37

I think it'd be a fantastic job. It pays

27:39

a hundred and fifty thousand, hundred and seventy

27:41

thousand dollars a month. A hundred and seventy grand

27:43

a year. Yeah. Yeah. I'm following up. What they should do

27:45

is have a bounty too.

27:47

hundred and seventy plus a bonus, ten cents

27:49

for every rat you can. I

27:52

mean, one of the reasons they do have a rat

27:54

problem is the same reason that we,

27:56

in London, have a fuck problem and that is

27:58

directly related to the rise of fast

27:59

food and the fact that we just

28:02

throw out too much fast food

28:04

Now, I actually have a most problem in my

28:06

house, not because of fast food, but,

28:08

you know, because they like our house.

28:11

And apparently, you can get these little

28:13

high pitched noise things that you

28:16

plug in that freaks them out. It's

28:17

like listening, well, how I feel

28:20

about k pop or the

28:22

Eurovision song contest or even

28:24

Schoenberg. But it can be done with

28:26

with high pitched noise and they would all

28:28

go to New Jersey, and most people in

28:30

New

28:30

York would be happy, you know, to see

28:33

them all go to New Jersey, wouldn't we all?

28:35

I don't regard foxes as a problem. Like,

28:37

I I quite like them. I'm always happy

28:39

when they're in my garden. Well, I

28:41

get woken by fornicating foxes.

28:43

It two in the morning. You're dancing

28:45

around outside my window. Slings around

28:47

the boat. I'll tell them to go to your house. I

28:49

mean, but just finally on this loot

28:52

Is is New York kind of and it's

28:54

not unheard of for New York? Is New York

28:56

somewhat valorizing itself here and

28:58

trying to do a sort of thing of

29:00

saying, like, you think you've got problems in your city. We've got

29:02

better rat problems in your head. This

29:04

is New York City. Yeah.

29:06

Yeah. No. I'm sure there's some of that and, you know,

29:08

governor I mean, the mayor Adams

29:10

has has, you know, tried to sort of put

29:12

his mark on the city and be different from

29:14

previous mayors. And this

29:17

is all you know, part of a great PR

29:19

stick for him, I think. Well, it

29:21

clearly has got people talking about New

29:23

York City, which obviously people just

29:25

don't do enough in normal circumstances.

29:27

Lou Lucas and Rebecca Tinsley, thank you

29:29

both for joining us. And finally, on tonight's

29:31

show in two thousand and three,

29:33

Two rovers were launched to Mars from Cape

29:36

Canaveral in Florida in the hope of

29:38

finding traces of past life on the

29:40

red planet. A new documentary, Goodnight,

29:42

Oppy, tells the story of a mission that lasted

29:44

fourteen years and forty seven

29:46

days. Monocle Emily Sands,

29:48

spoke to one of the engineers who worked on

29:51

the NASA

29:52

program. Each

29:56

rover has a mission. The

29:58

end goal here is to answer

30:00

the question, did life ever exist on

30:02

Mars? That

30:06

was

30:09

Becca's cousin, Seagfried.

30:11

one of the women featured in the new documentary Goodnight

30:14

Oppy. It tells the

30:14

story of opportunity, a rover

30:17

that on the seventh of July two thousand and

30:19

three was launched into base

30:21

as part of NASA's Mars Exploration Rover

30:24

program. Opie was sent to Mars with her twin

30:26

sister spirit for a ninety day mission,

30:28

but Opie ended up surviving fifteen

30:30

years. The film follows Opportunity's

30:33

groundbreaking journey on Mars and the

30:35

remarkable bond forged between a robot

30:37

and her humans millions

30:38

of

30:39

miles away. Spirit opportunity

30:43

when we launched them,

30:45

we were trying to follow the water

30:47

because we

30:49

think that if water exists on

30:51

a planet or moon or

30:53

orbiting body, then there could potentially

30:55

have been life there. or life

30:57

there still. That's what we were trying to answer the

31:00

question for Mars is was

31:01

there ever water on

31:04

Mars and was that water drinkable?

31:07

Becca worked on the opportunity rover from two

31:09

thousand thirteen to two thousand fifteen as a

31:11

flight director. She

31:12

became very fascinated by space at

31:14

a very young age, The documentary focuses on the

31:16

scientists and engineers who worked on the rovers.

31:18

There was a class, a rocket class in

31:20

my high school, which is really unheard

31:23

of. growing up in Fredericksburg, Texas

31:25

and taking that class. I was one of very

31:27

very very few

31:28

women in the program. And I think

31:30

a lot of that has to do with

31:33

what we see as kids. You know, we

31:35

we really look at when

31:37

we watch movies really and we

31:39

look at pictures and

31:40

read books. a lot of

31:43

the the role models that we have

31:45

there for people who are in the space

31:47

industry were men and white

31:49

men at that. And so I

31:51

never really thought

31:52

I never saw myself

31:54

being an engineer because

31:55

I couldn't see anyone that looks

31:57

like to me. I think it's really important that even

31:59

today in today's world that we

32:02

show showcase the diversity in

32:04

the space industry and

32:06

there is a lot of diversity.

32:08

I work at I still work at the jet

32:10

propulsion lab now on

32:12

perseverance. And the diversity that we have,

32:14

not only across genders

32:16

and sexualities, but also

32:18

cultures and ethnicities

32:19

is is really great and

32:21

it's important that the world see that.

32:23

We rewrote the history

32:26

books. The

32:28

whole project was bound together by

32:30

that feeling of love.

32:32

you're loving the people who you operated

32:34

with and intended it with you so

32:37

lovingly for so many years.

32:39

You you don't you don't get an adventure like that

32:41

twice.

32:42

Fear an opportunity

32:45

or what inspired me to go into

32:48

the space program. When I was in eighth grade, I saw them land

32:50

on Mars, and I

32:52

never thought I was gonna get to work on

32:54

them because they were supposed to only last

32:56

for ninety days. So

32:58

by the time I graduated college, the

33:00

fact that opportunity was still roving the

33:02

planet. There was a real sense of connection between

33:04

the team on Earth as they watched this

33:06

special rovers that they had manufactured, trialed

33:09

and tested through endless hours of work,

33:11

finally for space. Who I

33:13

worked with on the mission at that time? We

33:15

all referred them to as people, as girls,

33:18

as women. And

33:20

and it's so true because

33:23

these little rovers look so much

33:25

like people, which is really cool, but it's

33:27

also a

33:27

necessity that they look like people. They have

33:29

two eyes, so they have depth

33:31

perception. Like, we have two eyes and

33:33

they have an arm so they can touch things and

33:35

do things in watching Star

33:37

Wars growing up or Wally,

33:39

the Disney movie, you

33:42

know, even in that brief amount of time that you

33:44

you watching the film,

33:46

those cute little robots, you really

33:48

do make a connection with them. So if you

33:50

can imagine spending

33:51

many, many years and

33:53

days of your life building

33:57

and operating these

33:59

rovers and telling

34:00

them, hey, opportunity go

34:02

to this rock and take this picture and

34:04

then her sending

34:05

the data back or time, she doesn't do what you told her to do,

34:07

and you get frustrated. And, I mean, you

34:09

really do they do act

34:11

like people, and we

34:14

end up forming these incredible bonds with them.

34:16

In two thousand eleven, Spirit

34:18

opportunities twin sister ended her mission.

34:21

she in soft sand and expanded her power

34:24

reserves trying to free

34:26

herself. In December two

34:27

thousand and fourteen, NASA reported

34:29

that opportunity was suffering from amnesia events in

34:32

which the rover failed to write data.

34:34

I led the

34:35

team to solve opportunity's memory

34:37

problem when she was about twelve

34:38

years old. I was

34:40

in the test bed for hours

34:44

and days trying to figure out

34:46

how we can safely get

34:48

opportunity back on the road and getting her

34:50

roving again with her

34:52

memory problems. and then seeing

34:54

her do all the science she did

34:56

after that point. Finally,

34:58

finding evidence of of

35:00

drinkable water on Mars

35:02

after all of those memory problems. It was such an incredible

35:04

moment in my career

35:05

knowing that I had to some

35:07

small part and helping her

35:10

achieve that.

35:10

The water isn't there anymore, but the minerals left

35:12

behind bear an aluminium rich chemical signature that suggests that

35:15

they were formed through the interaction

35:17

with neutral pH water. This

35:20

was a huge scientific breakthrough to suggest that there could have

35:22

been forms of life on Mars. On July

35:24

the twenty eighth two thousand and fourteen,

35:27

It was announced opportunity having traversed over

35:30

forty kilometers had broken the record

35:32

for the longest off world

35:34

distance traveled. Opportunity has provided substantial

35:36

evidence in support of the mission's primary

35:38

scientific goals. I really think the legacy

35:40

of our

35:40

opportunity

35:42

is bringing together

35:43

a group of people from all over

35:45

the world, not just the

35:47

United States, but from all over the world,

35:49

bringing us together to

35:52

answer a question that will

35:54

help humanity understand our

35:56

purpose in life and where we're going

35:58

from here and to to move

35:59

us forward. Historically,

36:02

NASA likes to awaken its astronauts up

36:04

with music, so they decided to

36:06

give the rover the same treatment. The

36:07

engineers

36:08

always better pick a wake up song. So

36:10

finally letting our lead scientist Steve

36:12

pick that wake up song. The last one

36:14

was probably it was like the cherry on

36:16

top of a a really delicious amazing

36:19

cake. I'll

36:24

be seeing

36:28

you in know

36:30

the old familiar

36:33

place. That

36:36

was Becker Soslan's Secret speaking to Emily Sands. Good night,

36:38

Oppy, is available to stream on Amazon

36:40

Prime. That is all for this edition

36:43

of the day Thanks to our panels today, Rebecca Tinsley

36:45

and Lew Lucas. Today show was produced by Lillian Fawcett and

36:48

Research by Emily Sands. Our sand

36:50

engineer was

36:52

Adam Heaton, I'm Andrew Mueller here

36:54

in London. The Daily is back at the same time tomorrow. Thanks for listening.

36:56

Thank