0:02

From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning

0:04

Herald and The Age. This is the morning

0:06

edition. I'm Samantha Cylinder

0:08

Morris. It's Wednesday, May 8th.

0:14

For years now, Donald Trump has been

0:16

shooting off inflammatory messages on social media

0:18

and shouting invective about his foes from

0:20

lecterns Donald J.

0:22

Trump is calling for a total and

0:24

complete shutdown of Muslims

0:27

entering the United States. He's a war

0:29

hero because he was captured. I

0:31

like people that weren't captured. Okay, I hate to tell

0:33

you she's got nothing else going. And frankly,

0:35

if Hillary Clinton were a man,

0:37

I don't think she'd get 5% of the vote.

0:40

They're bringing drugs, they're bringing

0:42

crime. They're rapists. And

0:44

some, I assume, are good people.

0:48

But as for his actual plans for how

0:50

he would lead the United States should he be elected

0:52

president on November 5th, they've

0:54

long been thin on the ground. Or

0:56

they were until the other week, when Trump offered

0:58

a surprising interview in which he revealed,

1:01

perhaps for the first time, a detailed

1:03

vision of what he wants to achieve in a second presidency

1:06

and just how far he would be planning to go

1:08

to attain his goals today.

1:11

International and political editor Peter Hartcher

1:14

on what Donald Trump's desire for revenge

1:16

might look like for Americans on the ground,

1:18

and why he's more threatened by his own people

1:20

than America's traditional enemies.

1:28

So, Peter, you've written about a

1:30

new interview that Donald Trump has given, and

1:32

it's been quite revealing. So what did we

1:34

learn about Trump's plans for the future

1:36

of the United States that we didn't know before?

1:39

Because this isn't a man who has been shy

1:41

over the years when it comes to expressing his opinions.

1:44

Yes, we've heard a lot from Donald Trump.

1:46

The way I have put it is that the

1:48

tunes that he's singing are familiar. We know

1:50

those those tunes, but the lyrics

1:53

are becoming more clear and

1:55

more coherent. And

1:57

this particular interview with time magazine

1:59

just happened to be particularly long.

2:01

I mean, the transcript ran to more than 40 pages,

2:04

but it was also, I think we're starting

2:06

to see a coherence to Trump's

2:08

plans, and I think we can see

2:10

it cohering in the way

2:13

that he establishes a hierarchy

2:15

of enemies. It's all about enemies

2:18

at home and abroad. He

2:21

ranks them, he ranks the dangers

2:24

and he outlines

2:27

some of the techniques and methods he'll

2:29

use to pursue that. I think the word

2:32

that overall you would apply to Trump's foreign

2:34

policy and domestic policy is one that

2:36

we don't normally apply to a person. We would

2:38

normally apply it to a whole nation

2:41

and that is revanchist. The

2:43

word itself is only a century and a half old. It derives

2:46

from the French word for revenge,

2:48

and his domestic policy

2:51

increasingly is based on

2:53

and everything he says, and all his impulses are based

2:55

on taking revenge against

2:57

enemies in America, but also

3:00

revenge. And, you know, in the sense

3:02

when you use it to apply to a country's

3:04

foreign policy, like Russia's, for example,

3:06

you say it's revanchist, it means

3:08

he wants that Putin wants to recover territory

3:11

that he thinks should belong to Moscow.

3:13

In Trump's case, the foreign policy isn't about

3:16

taking. He doesn't want territory back.

3:18

There isn't any, um, but

3:20

what he wants is the opposite. He

3:22

wants for America's what

3:24

he sees as America's favors to the world

3:27

to be taken back to America. He wants revenge

3:29

on the world for taking advantage of America

3:31

as he sees it. And therefore, I think

3:33

it's a revanchist revenge based

3:35

policy to recover lost status,

3:39

um, and, uh, retribution

3:41

against enemies at home and abroad.

3:43

And I think, I think that's quite a

3:45

coherent now foreign as well as domestic

3:47

policy, which we just didn't really weren't able

3:49

to grasp before. But I think it's cohering.

3:51

This is fascinating. I really want to drill down

3:54

into this a bit further, because you noted,

3:56

I'm really grateful that you combed through this 40

3:59

page interview with time because it was it was long. I

4:01

tried and you noted that,

4:03

uh, that Donald Trump used the phrase, quote,

4:05

the enemy within, unquote, three times in the piece

4:08

you write. It wasn't a fluke. So

4:10

tell me about this. Who are the

4:12

greatest enemies to Americans that are within their

4:14

own country? Because Trump does

4:16

talk a lot about this, who are they

4:18

and what threats do they pose?

4:20

Yeah. Exactly. Right. Let me just

4:22

read the sentence, uh, from

4:24

Donald Trump. I think the enemy

4:26

from within, in

4:29

many cases, is much more dangerous

4:31

for our country than the outside enemies

4:33

of China, Russia and

4:35

various others. That would be

4:37

called enemies depending on who the president

4:39

is. Note that

4:41

the definition of an enemy abroad changes

4:44

with who the president is and not permanent

4:46

enemies, their personal enemies, apparently.

4:48

Okay, so your question is what about

4:50

this phrase the enemy from within?

4:53

Well, the history of it resonates

4:55

in the history of repression. Joseph

4:57

McCarthy, the senator who was the author

4:59

of the Red scare in the US in the 1940s

5:01

and 50s, used that phrase

5:04

famously the enemies from within

5:06

in a very famous speech he gave to

5:08

talk about traitors within the

5:10

US. If there.

5:12

Were. Communists in our government.

5:14

Why did we delay for

5:17

18 months? Delay

5:19

our research on the hydrogen bomb.

5:21

Even though our intelligence agencies

5:24

were reporting day after day

5:27

that the Russians were feverishly

5:29

pushing their development of each bomb.

5:32

And may I say to America tonight that

5:35

our nation may well die.

5:38

Our nation may well die

5:40

because of that 18 months

5:42

deliberation. And

5:44

I ask you who caused it? Was

5:47

it loyal Americans? There was a

5:49

traitor in our government.

5:51

Communist sympathizers who were

5:54

living in the US. Americans who were working

5:56

against the US interests, trying

5:58

to bring the system down through

6:00

communism. Donald Trump

6:02

uses the same phrase to

6:04

imply there are traitors everywhere. He's not

6:06

talking about an alien ideology that would

6:08

end American democracy. He's talking about

6:11

Democrats and Republicans

6:14

that he doesn't like. He calls them. This is a common

6:16

phrase in America, but rhinos, rhino,

6:18

Republicans in name only.

6:20

In other words, they're not loyal to me and therefore I don't like

6:22

them. So these aren't people

6:24

who are who are peddling an ideology to

6:26

end democracy. These are normal. This is

6:28

the normal contest of back and forth of politics

6:31

within the US. But for him, they

6:33

are on par with the traitors,

6:36

the communist insurgents

6:38

and plotters that

6:40

Joe McCarthy identified in the 1950s.

6:43

That's the broad definition. And

6:45

then there are within within those enemies, within

6:48

Democrats. Republicans. Yeah. Um,

6:50

people who don't like him. There

6:52

are different categories, and they range

6:55

from now, you know, some

6:57

of this is explicit and some of this is implicit.

6:59

The explicit, obviously, is the Biden

7:02

what he calls the the Biden family, the Biden

7:04

criminal enterprise, the attorneys

7:06

general who have been bringing charges

7:08

against him. They are enemies

7:11

of the state, according to Donald Trump.

7:13

That stuff is clear cut. People

7:15

who used to work for him, former members of his cabinet,

7:18

they're idiots or useless

7:20

except for the couple that have endorsed Trump

7:23

implicitly. He's out to get,

7:25

uh, even the score with

7:27

black people. He says

7:30

that America has a bigger problem

7:32

with anti-white racism than it does

7:34

with anti-Black racism. He

7:36

says. We can't allow that to stand.

7:39

Uh, protesters. He doesn't like protesters

7:41

who protest for the other team.

7:44

Uh, you know, his team is fine. The

7:46

he's said that the 800 or so

7:48

rioters who attacked the Capitol on

7:51

January 6th, he's considering

7:53

giving all of them all 800. They've all been

7:55

convicted by courts a

7:57

pardon. But other protesters

8:01

who protest in other causes, for example,

8:03

black Lives Matter. Uh, he

8:05

wants to even the score with them.

8:08

And in this particular interview he gave

8:10

to time, where the interviewer

8:12

reminds him that he, his former defense

8:14

secretary Mark Esper, had said Trump during

8:16

the Black Lives Matter protests when they

8:18

were raging across the US. Trump had

8:20

suggested that they be shot in the legs.

8:23

The protesters, civilians on the streets

8:26

exercising their legal right to protest.

8:29

Um, Trump didn't deny that he

8:31

wanted to. He wanted to know who who

8:33

said that? Which one of my defense secretaries said that, but

8:35

he didn't in any way distance himself

8:37

from that claim. And

8:40

they're just the ones, some of the ones

8:42

at home.

8:43

I mean, I have to say, I think within certainly within

8:46

your piece, one of the most shocking moments was

8:48

when you did write about the fact that Trump didn't deny

8:51

that he had previously suggested shooting protesters

8:53

in the legs during the Black Lives Matter demonstrations.

8:55

And I just wanted to ask your perspective on this, because

8:57

you've been covering politics for more than 40

9:00

years. Um, for three

9:02

of those years you were based in Washington, D.C.

9:04

you've, of course, covered a lot of American presidential elections.

9:07

So how, I guess shocking

9:09

is it for you to read a former

9:11

president and a potential future president

9:13

speak about his willingness to potentially

9:15

strike out against the people in his own country?

9:18

Well, it is shocking.

9:20

It's not entirely new

9:22

from Trump, but he he

9:24

keeps advancing not

9:27

only his willingness to, uh, allow

9:30

force to be used unconstitutionally

9:33

and also the range of people

9:35

categories against whom he's prepared to

9:37

have it used. So

9:39

in this interview, for example, he's

9:42

he talks about the deportation of

9:44

illegal immigrants. This is not new. He's been proposing

9:46

this for a long time. And other American presidents have

9:49

deported illegal aliens.

9:51

But when Trump

9:53

is asked, will you use the military to do

9:55

this? First he says, well, I first

9:58

we want to use local police. Second,

10:00

we'd want to use the National Guard. And then

10:02

but he does leave open the possibility

10:04

of using the military against

10:07

illegal immigrants in the US. He

10:09

says he wants to deport all of them. The

10:12

statistics suggest there are 11 million, Trump says

10:14

between 15 and 20 million. And he

10:16

wants to do it in a hurry. Now, can you imagine

10:18

the scale of that and potentially the chaos

10:21

of that? Uh, and

10:23

Trump was specifically

10:25

reminded that it's against the law

10:27

in the US for the military to be

10:29

deployed against civilians.

10:32

And he said, well, these aren't civilians,

10:34

they're illegal immigrants. They're

10:36

invading our country, equating

10:39

illegal immigrants with

10:41

a foreign power, you know, invading. Using

10:45

weapons, strategic weapons.

10:47

In fact, he seems readier to use

10:49

force against civilians in the

10:51

US than he does against foreign

10:54

nation states like Russia

10:56

or China, for example. This

10:58

so this is this is absolutely shocking.

11:01

It is absolutely shocking that

11:04

this is a democratic country,

11:07

traditionally with

11:09

an increasingly autocratic presidential

11:11

candidate who increasingly is

11:14

admitting or leaving open

11:16

the options of using

11:18

armed force, military force

11:21

against his own people.

11:23

Um, a wide range of

11:26

potential, you know, imagined enemies

11:29

in the same way that

11:31

even the most repressive autocrat

11:34

in some, you know, despotic

11:36

country around the world wouldn't

11:38

openly admit to wanting to do or doing,

11:41

they would make up a pretext. They'd

11:43

deny that they authorized the use

11:45

of force or whatever. But he's brazen

11:48

about it, and he's supposedly

11:51

was and wants again

11:53

to be the leader of the free world.

11:58

We'll be right back.

12:04

The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age are

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Listen to exclusive interviews with

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wherever you get your podcasts.

12:36

I think one thing that really was like

12:38

a thread throughout the piece and your piece as well, really

12:40

was this threat of potential violence that

12:43

could ensue should Donald Trump win in November

12:45

and lose.

12:46

In November.

12:47

Or lose? That's exactly right. And I

12:49

think one of the most worrying moments in the interview was when

12:51

the journalist put Trump. You said, I

12:53

think we're going to win and there won't be violence.

12:55

What if you don't win, sir? So

12:58

tell me about that moment in the interview and

13:00

how shocked or not were you by

13:02

Donald Trump's response?

13:04

Well, again, it's shocking. Um, because

13:07

again, it's a

13:09

US presidential candidate from one of the main

13:11

parties, uh, and a former

13:13

president saying that he won't necessarily

13:16

abide by the results and that

13:18

he will tolerate, uh, mob

13:20

violence to prevent a

13:23

legitimate election and transfer of power, or

13:25

in this case, continuation of power if Joe Biden

13:27

is reelected to occur. So

13:30

it's shocking. And yet it's also not surprising

13:33

given his history. But he

13:35

obviously has no regrets and intends to

13:37

take the thing forward. Although he claims that he didn't

13:39

he didn't in any way encourage, uh,

13:41

mob violence on January 6th. He's now prepared

13:43

to tolerate it. It seems, uh, on

13:46

November 5th this year because

13:48

he said in the answer to that question you just proposed,

13:51

where the reporter said, you know,

13:53

what happens if you if you lose?

13:56

Uh, what about violence implying

13:58

mob violence, violence on the streets,

14:00

violence on the Capitol? Uh,

14:02

Trump said it depends.

14:05

It always depends on how unfair

14:07

the election is. His definition of

14:09

unfair being I lose. So

14:12

he's obviously leaving wide open. They're sending

14:14

a clear signal to his followers

14:16

that, you know, to the various pro-Trump

14:18

militias and conspiracy mongers,

14:21

the Trump army, that

14:24

he wants them to prepare for that, that

14:26

contingency. He's asking them

14:29

inherently, implicitly. He's asking

14:31

them to train, arm,

14:33

prepare for mass

14:35

violence against

14:38

the democratically and constitutionally

14:41

elected president of the US

14:43

to enforce his own claim in

14:45

the event that he should lose.

14:47

Now, Peter, I want to turn to

14:49

foreign policy. You referred to it a little bit before.

14:52

What did he say on that count? I guess that we

14:54

hadn't heard before with regards to how

14:56

he views other countries, whether it's threats

14:59

or not, as threats, and what are the implications

15:01

of what he did say on this count for both

15:03

Australia and other countries? Yeah.

15:05

So the hierarchy is enemies within

15:08

and then less dangerously,

15:10

the countries than the great powers

15:12

that are actively working against

15:14

US interests and actively trying

15:16

to reshape the world in a way

15:18

that advances their interests, that advances

15:21

autocracy and limits human liberty

15:23

wherever they can. Russia,

15:25

China, North Korea

15:28

less so. Iran. He doesn't. He expresses

15:30

no sympathy for Iran, but

15:33

he expresses various shades of

15:35

sympathy or kinship or

15:37

comradeship with the dictators

15:39

of Russia, China and

15:42

North Korea. Implicitly,

15:44

he's saying these countries

15:47

aren't aren't real threats to us.

15:50

Would you help Ukraine? The reporter asked

15:52

him. He said, oh,

15:54

well, Europe's

15:57

we're doing way too much. Europe's got a step

15:59

up. Europe. The Europeans have to pay.

16:01

They have to, you know, they have to equalize

16:04

our effort. I'll sit back and

16:06

wait for the Europeans to do something, because I'm not going

16:08

to. And he'd have earlier told

16:10

Orban, the Hungarian leader,

16:13

in a private conversation, which Orban then

16:15

repeated publicly that Trump had told him

16:17

he wouldn't spend a cent to protect Ukraine.

16:20

Russia war bond made the comments on

16:22

Hungarian state television this morning. It comes

16:24

just after the former president posted a

16:26

highlight reel of Orban's visit to

16:28

his Truth social account, which included Orban

16:31

praising Trump's leadership and lamenting

16:33

the state of the world without him in

16:35

the Oval Office. Let's listen.

16:38

Trump and Baker. So

16:43

Europe.

16:44

Well, we know Trump in the past

16:46

has said if they don't pay up more for

16:48

their defense of of the whole NATO bloc,

16:51

which includes most of Europe and the US and

16:53

Canada, then I'll encourage

16:55

the Russians to do quote whatever the hell they

16:57

want, whatever the hell they want.

17:00

Music to Vladimir Putin's ears as he

17:02

now extends his plans, aggressive

17:05

plans beyond Ukraine.

17:07

We see countries across Europe. Now they're all

17:10

coming to the same conclusion. Countries

17:12

from Romania, Finland,

17:14

Poland, Germany, Sweden

17:17

are all now taking active

17:19

precautions and arming against

17:22

potential Russian invasion.

17:24

So this is the sort of the scale

17:26

and implication of what we're talking about. Samantha,

17:29

if Putin is not stopped

17:31

in Ukraine, if Putin wins in

17:33

Ukraine, we have every

17:35

reason and evidence to suspect

17:37

that he will continue marching into

17:40

Europe. And here is Donald Trump saying,

17:42

well, you know, NATO pay

17:44

up. And again, the

17:46

reporter asks Trump very clearly,

17:49

are you prepared to continue

17:51

America's policy of defending the West, especially

17:54

Europe, to preserve

17:56

the peace that has held in place in the world

17:58

for the last 80 years? Or do you want to reshape

18:00

the architecture of world power?

18:02

To which Trump says, I want

18:04

Europe to pay? It's that simple.

18:07

He is making NATO conditional

18:09

when it's clearly an unconditional. Article five

18:11

is clearly an unconditional commitment to

18:14

the defense of Western Europe. He's sending a signal

18:16

to Putin that you can do what you want.

18:18

These are the messages. These are the policies

18:20

taking shape, potential policies taking shape

18:23

in the event that Donald Trump should win. On

18:25

November 5th.

18:26

I wanted to ask you about what you think

18:28

the impact of this interview that Trump just

18:30

gave, which, like you said, he made it very

18:33

explicit, I guess, what his priorities might be, should

18:35

he be elected in November, what impact it

18:37

might have on those who've read it? Because I know

18:39

in the lead up to the 2016 election,

18:41

many people thought, oh, you know, Trump was

18:44

talking about all these crazy ideas and should

18:46

he get elected, he's not actually going to do these things.

18:48

So do you think that people

18:50

might read this and be more clear eyed about

18:52

what he's saying he's actually going to do?

18:55

Well, none of us have an excuse anymore, do we?

18:57

I mean, anybody who failed to take him seriously

18:59

last time or wrote off his chances

19:01

of election, we've learned our lesson.

19:04

He's telling us. What he's planning to do, we should

19:06

absolutely take him seriously. That's

19:09

for people who need to think about

19:11

preparation. Bracing

19:13

for the US to

19:16

be a weaker or nonexistent

19:19

force in the defense

19:21

of sovereign borders

19:23

and human liberty around the world. We

19:25

have time to prepare, and we should be in. Governments around

19:27

the world are to various extents.

19:30

But within the US, people

19:33

who support Trump, Trump voters,

19:35

Trump supporters have shown

19:37

that they are impervious to

19:40

any kind of discouragement. They're

19:43

impervious to being scared about

19:45

Donald Trump or worried about Donald Trump.

19:47

And as he said in this same interview

19:49

that we're discussing the time interview,

19:51

he'd said in an earlier line

19:53

that where, you know,

19:55

would Mr. Trump, would you like to be a dictator

19:58

if you're re-elected? And he he replied,

20:01

uh, no, no, just for one day. Just

20:03

for one day so I could close the border and

20:05

dig, dig, dig. Meaning for oil drill, drill, drill

20:08

for oil. So, uh, but

20:10

in this interview, he said, oh, no, that was just I was just kidding.

20:13

I didn't really mean I'd be a dictator for a day.

20:15

I don't that's not my intention.

20:17

The reporter says, do you understand that a

20:20

lot of Americans are scared by that sort of talk? And Trump

20:22

says a lot of people like it.

20:25

Which is true. Two thirds of American voters say

20:27

they like the idea of Donald Trump being a dictator.

20:30

So they're not deterred.

20:32

They haven't been deterred for nearly

20:34

four years now by anything he's said or done.

20:37

They weren't deterred by his attack on the Capitol.

20:40

They are attached to him. He

20:42

is the equivalent of the leader of a

20:44

religious cult, and they are that

20:46

attached that I don't think we can expect

20:48

them to desert him any time between

20:51

now and November 5th.

20:52

But what about, theoretically, those who aren't

20:54

a part of the party faithful? I mean, obviously

20:56

they don't have compulsory voting in the United

20:58

States, and it's arguable that

21:00

there was a lot of voters back in 2016

21:03

who, you know, they really weren't worried about Trump

21:05

getting in and they weren't worried about these crazy policies

21:07

being enacted. So maybe they didn't go vote.

21:10

Do you think it's possible that people might read

21:12

his more explicit intentions and,

21:15

you know, be worried that they might live in something

21:17

like a police state?

21:19

Yes. I think Democratic voters have

21:21

broadly got the message. But you're right in the

21:23

middle. There are independents and

21:25

there are soft Democrat voters

21:28

who could well take this

21:30

to heart. And the critical thing is,

21:32

as you've said, you referred to voluntary

21:35

voting. The critical thing is turnout. It's

21:37

people who care enough. Remember,

21:39

elections in the US are held on a Tuesday and

21:42

often people weren't. You know, bosses

21:44

won't give them time off. They have to find

21:46

time somehow to get to a polling

21:48

place. You've got to get off your bum. You've

21:50

got to somehow work around your responsibilities on

21:52

a weekday, and you've got to go and

21:54

cast a ballot. So best

21:57

case scenario, and I applaud

21:59

your optimism, Samantha.

22:01

Best case is people in the middle, uncommitted

22:03

voters, swing voters, soft

22:05

Democrats, maybe some of the Democrats who've been

22:07

deserting the Democratic Party over

22:10

Joe Biden's policy in Gaza.

22:13

If this helps to sober them, to see

22:15

clearly the stakes and to

22:17

see that democracy itself is on the ballot

22:20

on November 5th, then

22:22

that has to be a helpful development

22:24

for the preservation of democracy in the US

22:27

and the preservation of liberty on

22:29

the planet.

22:30

Well, we're only six months away now, so

22:33

thank you so much, Peter, for your time.

22:35

Yes, it's a bit sobering, but that's the world

22:37

we live in. Thanks, Samantha.

22:51

Today's episode of The Morning Edition

22:53

was produced by Kai Wong. Our

22:55

head of audio is Tom McKendrick.

22:57

The Morning Edition is a production of The Age

22:59

and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy

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are in the show. Notes. I'm

23:24

Samantha Selinger. Morris. This is

23:26

the morning edition. Thanks for listening.