0:00

Hey

0:01

there. I'm Osman Farooqke, culture editor

0:03

at the age in Sydney Morning Herald.

0:05

Today, I'm pleased explain where sharing an

0:07

episode of our sister podcast the drop.

0:10

It's a weekly show diving into the latest

0:12

in the world of pop culture and entertainment, featuring

0:15

culture writers and critics from the age and the

0:17

herald, and it's hosted by me,

0:19

Oz. AI,

0:21

it's all the rage at the moment from

0:24

business to art to journalism and

0:26

even TikTok. Artificial

0:28

intelligence is being used to create sometimes

0:30

hilarious and sometimes downright

0:33

terrifying content. But

0:35

is it something to fear or is

0:37

it just another tool to embrace, particularly

0:39

in the world of arts and culture where it can be incredibly

0:42

helpful for all sorts of different creators.

0:45

To help figure that out, I'm joined this week

0:47

by my colleague Jim Malo, a reporter

0:49

at the Age and the Sydney Morning Herald. Before

0:52

we get into the show, if you wanna hear more episodes

0:54

like this one, exploring the latest

0:56

in the world of culture and entertainment, just

0:58

search for and follow the drop in your favorite

1:01

podcast app. Alright. Here's

1:03

the show. Jim

1:13

Malo, how you going? Welcome to the drop.

1:15

I'm going great. Awesome. Thank you.

1:17

Good to have you on the show. So last

1:19

week, you alerted me to

1:21

this TikTok trend that think is actually

1:24

a really interesting kind of confluence

1:26

of these different threads that are

1:28

playing out across social media and in

1:30

technology and in the arts. And The

1:32

trend basically it's gonna sound

1:34

a bit weird, but it basically involves

1:37

AI generated voices of different

1:39

US presidents. Being

1:41

kind of toxic to each other -- Yeah. -- in

1:43

a video game chat

1:46

room, a Discord type thing. Is that

1:48

basically right? Yep. hundred percent really

1:50

fascinating sort of like look at

1:52

how AI voice generation is being

1:54

used currently. I mean, at the moment, it's a bit of like

1:56

a parlor trick. Right? That's not really doesn't

1:58

seem serious and scary

2:00

yet. But I mean, yeah, that could

2:02

change.

2:07

Joe, you know I love you, but that beat was a bit mid.

2:09

That beat was so ass. You were definitely

2:11

asleep while you made that. Shut the

2:13

fuck off Donald. What do you even know about making

2:15

sick beats? The 808 was out

2:17

of key. The melody sounds like something

2:19

a newborn baby would create

2:21

accidentally. That

2:22

clap sample makes me wanna kill you. And what is

2:24

it about these particular

2:27

clips of these videos. It's sort of it's

2:29

it's become its own universe in a

2:31

way. These things

2:31

are kind of ongoing. What? I mean

2:34

getting something to explain how a joke

2:36

is funny is never really a fruitful task,

2:38

but there's something about this and

2:40

the way that it's is it the the people involved,

2:42

the fact that the AI is weirdly quite good,

2:44

the topics that they're talking about, all of the above,

2:47

that make this both so funny to

2:49

the extent that it's

2:50

got, you know, millions and millions of views. Yeah.

2:52

I would say that's probably the case. I mean, like,

2:54

you're right that explaining joke kind of ruins

2:56

and I feel like I've been ruining it for myself a little

2:58

bit in the past. The past couple of days thinking about

3:00

this conversation. And,

3:02

yeah, it does sort of boil down to the fact that

3:04

it's like just kinda funny to hear like

3:07

US presidents argue with each other about

3:09

just, you know, random stuff that you might, you know, I'm

3:11

not sure if you're into gaming. I was, but

3:13

if you're, like, in a voice chat, like, you're

3:16

always, like, you know, needling each other and having a go.

3:18

And, like, it's it's funny to see these dynamics play

3:20

out with the president says the actors. And

3:23

I just think it's generally funny if you are

3:25

like the member of like a subculture to

3:28

sort of take like an established character

3:31

and then sort of insert them into your

3:33

subculture and how they might react and

3:35

and what positions they might take. So for

3:37

example, one of the one of the TikToks

3:39

I showed you was the

3:41

president's playing Fortnite and

3:43

talking about who is the the

3:45

best, like, rapper. Right? Is it Jake Hall or

3:47

is it Kendrick Lamar? Jake Cole

3:50

doesn't have a single piece of work that can go toe

3:52

to toe with TPAB or a good kid

3:54

mad city. Stay

3:55

crying. Come

3:56

back to the

3:56

chocolate factory. You delusional Oompa Lompa.

3:59

Cole is hip hop. Oh, yeah. Kindrick

4:01

puts on a dumbass voice for a song and

4:03

you call him a genius for. And how many Pulitzer

4:05

prizes does Jay Flop have

4:06

out of here? Yeah. That's what I thought. How about Macomart

4:08

guy? Macomar is so cool. I love

4:10

thrift shop. I got it on my iPod.

4:13

And you just like it hit a number of, like, pleasure

4:15

centers for me. But, like, it just, like, sort

4:17

of, like, stuck with me because it was, like, it was interesting

4:20

to see, like, who they characterize

4:22

as having what opinion and,

4:24

you know, how they sort of, like, or played

4:26

off each other. And one of the the key

4:29

things that I that sort of made me wanna

4:31

write about it or or talk to you about it

4:33

was that you know, it's it's kind of fascinating

4:35

to see how they, like, choose to characterize someone

4:37

like Trump who's, like, you know, very, like so who's

4:39

his favorite rapper in the video? Yeah. He's he's

4:42

a Kendrick fan. Obviously, like, he calls them.

4:44

Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny because, like, they position

4:46

Trump as, like, being sort of, like, morally

4:48

and, like, depending on who you ask, like,

4:50

objectively correct in the sense. Yeah. And

4:52

then they, like, there was, like I don't know.

4:55

It's the thing that, like, I'm really interested

4:57

in is Rod

4:57

this. The way they're sort of like white washing Trump's image.

4:59

Right? Like, I know I'm getting a little bit off course here, but,

5:02

like, I'm just sort

5:02

of There's an extra layer to it. Yeah.

5:04

It's like you're like, oh, yeah. He's right. This

5:06

is a guy arguing really coherently

5:09

about why Kendrick is the greatest rapper of all

5:11

time, but you're like, hang on. That's Donald Trump's

5:13

voice -- Yeah. -- really odd. Yeah. It's bizarre,

5:15

isn't it? Yeah. And it's I think

5:17

it, you know, it speaks to, you know, his position

5:20

in the white political land at this point because, you

5:22

know, he's in some ways like a like, politically

5:24

emasculated. Right? He doesn't really have the power

5:27

that he had, you know, just like, was it 334

5:30

years ago. Yeah. And, you know, he becomes

5:32

a bit of punch line, but it's it's interesting to

5:34

see how that will sort of play out in the years

5:35

ago. Yeah. And

5:36

it's not just current contemporary political

5:38

figures. Like, Obama pops up in

5:40

these videos.

5:41

And George's Bush pops up as well. Obama's characterization

5:43

is by far the funniest to me together. Drake,

5:45

I just wanted to say I love your music. Michelle

5:48

and I used to get turned to hotline bling while raining

5:50

drone strikes on hospitals.

5:52

Obviously, there's quite a lot of criticism of his

5:54

like track record when it comes

5:57

to wars. And in these

5:59

TikToks, they're constantly sort of characterizing as someone who,

6:01

like, has a, you know, a very sort of Itchy

6:04

trigger finger. He's always, you know, bombing just

6:07

random people overseas. And, yeah,

6:09

it's it's funny to see that he isn't

6:12

off the hook for

6:12

his, you know, his, like, political It's really interesting.

6:14

So it feels like to really I

6:17

guess this is what I'm interested in. Oh, to to really

6:19

get Every layer of

6:21

this joke, you have to sort of be

6:24

pretty aware of current online gaming

6:26

culture -- Yep. -- have some pretty

6:28

deep thoughts on this state of hip

6:30

hop and who the goats are and

6:33

to have a pretty specific

6:35

sense of the politics of

6:37

the last twenty five

6:40

years of American president. And,

6:42

you know, sometimes with jokes, the specificity

6:45

is where the the the real sweet spot lies,

6:47

like you said, activates these pleasure centers because

6:49

if you if you are at that Venn diagram

6:51

of loving all of those three

6:52

things, I'm being interested in them as I

6:54

think you are,

6:55

as you I am, it's clearly millions of people. It's almost

6:57

like that joke has been created for

7:00

you. Yeah. And I think that's part of

7:01

the, like, the the joy in these memes.

7:03

I know, like, you know, memes like,

7:06

I may be controversial, but I I do consider

7:08

them to

7:09

be, like, artistic in a way. That's

7:10

the controversial. No way. Of course. Excellent. Wonderful.

7:12

The safe space. I also think that

7:14

they can be you know, political cartoons in

7:17

a way as well, which political cartoons had it when

7:19

I that. Maybe they should get better at making means. Yeah.

7:21

Well, they should pick up some AI generation tools.

7:24

They also probably would hate me saying that too. But, you

7:26

know, I think it it sort of speaks to this ability

7:28

like it's the democratization of

7:30

art. Like, I'm the barrier to getting

7:32

involved in art constantly gets lowered and therefore

7:34

more people have the opportunity to become a part

7:36

of it. You know, niche Internet

7:39

communities have always been making memes for, you

7:41

know, since memes were a thing and since we decided that's

7:43

what we want to call them. And I

7:45

I really think that they sort of the more the bar

7:48

gets low, the more people can, you know, get involved

7:50

and the more, you know, pleasure centers

7:52

you know, the meme's or, you know, be

7:55

That's really interesting. Yeah. To to kind of make stuff

7:57

like this five, ten, twenty

7:59

years ago, required a very specific

8:01

set of tools and probably a lot of money and resources

8:03

to make something like this. But when you can use

8:06

AI and TikTok video editing,

8:08

the kinds of people who make

8:11

art

8:11

shifts, is this basically what you're saying? Yeah. Yeah. And

8:13

which I think is fascinating, but there is,

8:15

like, some questions about how

8:18

that undermines, like, the act of creation

8:20

itself when when it comes to, like, making

8:22

art.

8:23

But it So far, I mean, like for

8:25

me scrolling to my TikTok feed, it's, you know,

8:28

an ambiguous plus. You're

8:31

right that there are bigger themes here.

8:33

Like, we're talking about how funny

8:35

and and and engaging and political

8:37

and interesting these tools can be. There's obviously

8:40

also some other consequences as well, but before

8:42

we get into that, I think a really interesting example

8:44

of how democratized this

8:47

is and how easy it is to make

8:49

art using

8:50

AI. Like, you've got an example, an

8:52

app that someone you know has made.

8:54

What they've created is this this AI

8:56

sort of wrapping bot. So effectively,

8:59

all you have to do is put in like a prompt of what you want

9:01

the song to be about. And you can also put in some

9:03

sort of like a markers of what you

9:05

want the beat to sound

9:06

like, and it will spit out like a very short like

9:08

four bar verse.

9:09

Can we can have a look at it? Can we do it now? Yeah.

9:11

Absolutely. So what do you wanna hear? What sort

9:14

of input's gonna give to the beat? Trap

9:16

baits work well.

9:17

Cool. If it's a

9:17

trap bait. Okay. Do you wanna anything

9:20

in particular you want the subject to be? Yeah.

9:22

I think I want the subject to be you.

9:24

I want it to be is Jim

9:26

a good

9:27

journalist. Oh my

9:28

god. So

9:29

you're just typing that phrase into

9:31

this app? Yes. Against my will. It

9:35

is Jim good journalist. With questions,

9:37

I don't think it does so well. I did a good one the other

9:39

day that was like,

9:41

I ate too much chicken feet at yumcha and

9:43

like that was actually pretty good, but it couldn't say MSG.

9:45

But anyway, here we go.

9:53

Trying to tell the truth, but

9:55

not enough. He's a man of

9:57

interest twenty. That's what

9:59

he knows. He's never afraid

10:01

to take a stand. No matter

10:04

the cause. He's a voice of the

10:06

people and will never be lost.

10:08

Wow. I mean, if if we delete does feel like

10:10

it applies to you. Thanks, man. I appreciate

10:13

it.

10:14

Yeah. So this isn't beta, I I just

10:16

will add. So some of the words to come out little bit did,

10:18

but it's it's pretty interesting technology. And that

10:20

was quick. You said it takes a second. That took, like,

10:22

a second. Yeah. Pretty much. It's I

10:24

would say, less than a

10:25

minute, like, about thirty seconds maybe. Yeah. It's

10:27

It's very interesting. And I think what is interesting about

10:30

that and the TikTok videos

10:32

we were talking about is, like -- Mhmm. -- both of these,

10:34

as we were saying, a pretty irreverent examples

10:37

of using this kind of technology, using

10:40

this kind of approach to making a meme

10:42

or making art, making a political

10:44

statement. But

10:46

They're also part of a much bigger conversation

10:48

about where we are going with with

10:50

AI and tech and --

10:52

Yeah. -- this blurring effect in in

10:54

fiction. When you're watching those

10:56

videos. We're talking about the the presidential ones.

10:59

And when you're seeing people make wraps

11:01

like this, I mean, Is there any part of

11:03

you that thinks as funny and wild as

11:05

this

11:05

is? This also has the potential to be kind

11:07

of terrifying. Yeah. Look,

11:10

I I feel at this point,

11:12

it's like it's very interesting to see like

11:14

which areas of life are being

11:17

affected by it first. Because

11:19

you would think that AI would be

11:21

a tool. Right? And not necessarily a

11:24

sort of like a play thing. We're sort of at a stage

11:26

where it's like, it sort of is seeping into

11:28

art first because it has little consequence.

11:31

Right? Like I'm what is being done

11:33

with it. You know, art does have consequence,

11:35

and it it matters and and I would argue matters

11:38

and, you know, when I was going on my tangent

11:40

about the characterization of Donald Trump. Right?

11:42

Yeah. It matters because, like, it does influence

11:44

how we see the world and how we think about things.

11:47

But the fact that you can just like spit out something

11:49

funny to show your mates is or your

11:51

niche Internet community. It's

11:53

a fun thing you can do and, you know, you can just

11:56

sort of you know, enjoy yourself

11:57

and, you know, make others

11:58

happy with that. Yeah. It's interesting that when chat GPT

12:01

was released, that's the kind of service

12:03

where you can sort type in prompts and

12:06

it can create essays and there's a little bit of

12:08

a panic about what that means for academia

12:10

or journalism. Yeah. But

12:10

everyone I know just use that to make, like, gags.

12:13

One of our colleagues actually wrote an article

12:15

using Chachi PPT. And, like, you know, it's

12:18

weirdly good, but it like, it at this point,

12:20

it really only, like, puts up a facade of intelligence

12:23

and it's just a it's a mimicry of and,

12:25

you know, in in some cases, that's enough.

12:27

Right? But in most cases, it's not really

12:29

developed enough to be a serious tool,

12:32

I think. I think it's a good jumping off point and

12:34

can give you the frames to to build

12:36

something greater, but it's it's not really

12:38

anything more serious than that. And I think that applies to

12:40

art as well. I mean, like, means a, you know,

12:42

low effort, low reward. So

12:44

it doesn't matter that, you know, our AI presence

12:47

sound a bit weird or, you know, the the rap I made

12:49

in thirty seconds sounds a weird. You can pronounce

12:51

integrity. Right? Like, you know, that's not

12:53

the end of the world, but I feel like we're still a few

12:55

steps before we have to start worrying about it, you know,

12:57

taking our jobs or I think the concern

12:59

is, you know, propaganda. Right? Like,

13:01

can it it lowers the bar for people to

13:03

create

13:03

propaganda. That that I think is the most interesting.

13:05

Like, I the chat GPT thing hasn't

13:08

really worried me. Like, academics seem

13:10

slightly stressed about kids faking if

13:12

essays. I mean, like, kids have found ways to

13:14

cheap on essays forever.

13:16

Absolutely.

13:16

Who cares? Yeah. Absolutely. Who cares? University

13:19

is a joke. Sorry if you're studying when you look

13:21

into this. It's weird.

13:23

It's funny that, like, the first thing that's freaked me

13:25

out about all of this stuff is these TikTok

13:27

videos use that

13:28

advertisement. about Donald Trump wrapping Donald

13:30

Trump talking about his favorite rappers

13:32

-- Yeah. -- because it's so

13:34

realistic. And I I guess, like, there's two different

13:36

issues here. It's worth separating these things out because we're kind

13:39

of alluding to both of them, but, like, let's tackle them

13:41

one at a time. The first one is kind of this

13:43

use of deep fakes, which obviously

13:45

has the ability to create humorous videos

13:48

but also could have political and social consequences.

13:50

Yep. And then there's a separate issue of art

13:53

and what it means to have tools

13:55

and artificial intelligence that can generate a lot

13:57

of art very, very quickly. Let's talk

13:59

about deep fakes first, like aside

14:01

from the fun stuff we've been

14:03

discussing. There's all

14:05

sorts of examples that have already gone

14:07

viral from kind of more nefarious

14:10

or or weird ones. Like, this is one I remember,

14:12

Jerome in the Podcast in an

14:14

AI generated clip is debating Rata

14:16

Tuohy with Ben

14:17

Shapiro, like another conservative. I

14:20

just think would love to get Rata Tuohy.

14:22

Rata Tuohy? Like, have a little guy up there. You

14:24

know, making me cook delicious meals. No. I understand.

14:27

I I've seen the film. You wouldn't want that? I A little

14:29

guy pulling your hair, making you cook. It's a ridiculous

14:31

concept. You're telling me you wouldn't want that. I just

14:33

don't know why you're bringing it up as if it's something that

14:35

could actually happen. You wouldn't want a little ratatouille

14:38

guy up there doing whatever. It's on insane that

14:40

a rat would even be able to cook in the first place. He doesn't

14:42

have to be cooking. In the movie, he's cooking.

14:44

Yeah. But in this scenario, though, he could

14:46

do other stuff. Yes.

14:47

It's so funny. And it's like and I think the fact that

14:49

it was so it's believable. It was so

14:51

credible. That was so good because,

14:53

like and, like, that's another thing. Right? Like,

14:55

I'm the characterization of Venture hero

14:58

in these AI videos is so

15:00

good. Like I'm

15:00

sorry, I know this is not talking about the issue, but it's just it's

15:02

hilarious to see how people choose to percent

15:04

totally. And I and I think that still falls into the category

15:07

of, like, more humorous than nefarious.

15:09

But

15:09

then very quickly, like, a

15:11

a quick comp to that is Emma Emma Watson

15:14

you know, from Harry Potter and various other things,

15:16

her voice was simulated to have a reading

15:19

out of Hitler's mind calm, which

15:21

you can sort of see if you didn't

15:23

understand the context or if that was

15:25

originally popped up on Reddit and then

15:27

you saw that on Twitter, you would think what the hell

15:29

is going on? Yeah. I mean,

15:32

Do you think we're heading into a

15:34

political election campaign in the states

15:37

where there's already so much concern

15:39

about fake news

15:40

misinformation, like, what does something

15:42

like this add to that?

15:45

think it adds like a layer of danger. Right? Like,

15:47

because, like, you know, as we well

15:49

know, the initial untruth often

15:51

spreads further than the the actual

15:53

correction. Alright. You know, imagine if these

15:55

defects had existed when Donald Trump was in office.

15:58

Yeah. You

15:58

know, he was constantly saying the things that he,

16:00

like, very obviously said were not true on Yeah.

16:02

How could you tell the difference? Exactly. Yeah. It gives

16:04

it gives people like him more cover to sort of, you

16:06

know, perpetuate untrue or push propaganda,

16:09

you

16:09

know, he could he could be reading from my comp and then

16:11

he could be like, oh, actually, that was a defect.

16:12

Yeah. That's really interesting. And, you know, I I feel like

16:15

there is, like, a a real danger of of

16:17

that becoming a problem. And, like,

16:19

that is that's concerning, right, because, like, you

16:21

know, there's like, there there are real dangers in,

16:23

you know, the the policies and the

16:25

the positions. And it creates like

16:27

this sort of environment where everyone else will be

16:29

playing catch up, you know, trying

16:30

to, you know, dispel the untruths or, you know,

16:32

saw the fact from fiction. So I think

16:34

there are real, like, real issues

16:37

with it. I think the most interesting thing

16:39

here is what you are willing

16:41

to consider is possible

16:43

or viable out of this. Like, if if

16:46

Joe if a video gets released of Joe

16:48

Biden reading my account for example,

16:50

it's, like, that is

16:52

so obviously, like, a deep fake

16:54

that it's not really much of a threat to his

16:56

political career. Yeah. But as you mentioned, someone like

16:58

Donald Trump, it's like, you don't know if that could be real

17:01

or not. So maybe the debate

17:03

over, like, deep fakes and what sort of impact

17:05

that could have on our perception politics

17:07

on campaigns. There's actually a bit of a fig leaf

17:10

for just like pointing to

17:12

the kind of deeper risks and challenges

17:14

of having certain candidates. Like, you should you should

17:16

imagine in a world even with deep fakes

17:19

that if someone says something so out there,

17:21

that's obviously fake. But then I wonder, like, what

17:23

about those instances in the middle where? It

17:25

is not Joe Biden reading from Meinckhardt,

17:27

but it is him announcing the

17:29

placement of military warships

17:32

-- Yeah. -- you know, in an area that is contentious,

17:34

so it's possible, but he

17:36

hasn't actually done it. But a video site quite said

17:38

he's done

17:39

it, and then another country reacts.

17:41

don't know if we're gonna get like, a Cuban

17:43

missile crisis out of deep faith. Like, is that

17:45

sort of what you yeah. I'm just I'm just asking the question. I'm

17:47

just asking questions here too. Not

17:50

to go to taka calls. Yeah.

17:51

Yeah. So true. But why why wouldn't we get that?

17:53

Like, if

17:54

those are the stories, guys are talking about -- Yeah. --

17:56

if you don't look at that video, and you just

17:58

listen to Donald Trump and Joe Biden arguing

18:00

about Kendrick

18:01

Lamar. It sounds like Donald Trump and

18:03

Joe Biden arguing about Kendrick Lamar. Yeah.

18:05

Yeah. And I I think that's the thing right. It's like

18:07

the the way the voices sound has

18:09

gotten so, like, scarily good in

18:11

such a short space of time. Like, there's a noticeable

18:13

difference between the early ones and the and

18:15

the the late ones. I think the first 1II

18:18

saw was Joe Biden

18:20

saying, like, a whole bunch of unprintable

18:22

things about, you know, smoking

18:24

weed. Right? Right. And he's talking about this specific

18:26

brand of, like, you know, noobie and Cush or whatever.

18:29

It's just some some absolutely outlandish thing

18:31

eighty cents says a bunch of, like, awful and racist things.

18:33

But he also, like like, the idea

18:35

is to mimic, like, a specific type of

18:37

person. Right? And, like, sort of, like, put it out and,

18:39

like, it was so dilted and unclear

18:41

that, like, obviously, it was a defect,

18:44

but it was still weird to hear his voice saying But now

18:46

we're getting to the point where they actually sound like they're having

18:48

real conversations, you know, the intonations,

18:51

the the way they interrupt each

18:52

other. You know, what's to say that this conversation

18:54

isn't a deep take? Well, that's the great reveal

18:56

of this because it turns out neither was surreal.

18:58

It's a yeah. I generated Yeah. And I guess I guess

19:00

the other thing and you were alluding to this before in terms

19:03

of trust in media, like, where these things

19:05

emerge. Like if Joe Biden is gonna put

19:07

missile cruise ship

19:08

somewhere, he's not gonna announce that on

19:10

TikTok. On, like, discord. No.

19:12

No. But I mean, the the so

19:14

the Pokemon one, which is unprintable, sort

19:17

of keep bringing it up because I'm sure everyone's really

19:19

You can Google it if you want, but I'm not gonna talk

19:21

about that. I I'm not even gonna give you the information to Google

19:24

it. That came with video that looked like

19:26

him speaking at a rally, you know. And when

19:28

these so when those videos, like, the real ones

19:30

actually make to TikTok like, you know, that's how they

19:32

look. Right? They look a little bit out of fact, and they look a little

19:34

bit weird. And they

19:36

still make it onto the the platform. So it

19:38

wouldn't necessarily be like he's announcing it, but it'll look

19:41

like it had been announced somewhere else. Right. And

19:43

the problem is, do people actually verify things?

19:45

I mean, like I say, the TikTok says, Joe

19:47

Biden's putting, you know, warships

19:49

you know, say, the South China Sea. I'm

19:52

sure Xi Jinping is not going to be, like, I saw

19:54

some TikTok. I'm gonna go see it later. Like, he's

19:56

like he's gonna, like, you'll call the the ambassador

19:58

or whatever. Like, it's I don't think in those situations,

20:01

it's as much of a clear problem as it is,

20:03

like, sort of this, like, lifting

20:05

the baseline of sort of, like, tension within, like,

20:07

a, like, a country ride is probably

20:09

more the propaganda usage of it than it

20:11

is something else. Yeah. No, fair enough. I feel

20:13

like I'm less optimistic

20:16

than you are on everybody.

20:19

Yeah. Just think I just think, like, in in

20:21

Pakistan right now, there's a huge vertical price

20:23

because these audio tapes have been

20:25

leaked allegedly

20:26

with, you know, former prime minister Imran Khan

20:28

on

20:28

them talking about corruption, apparently

20:31

some stuff to do with him having affairs.

20:33

And it's that you remove the video of it and it's just

20:35

audio that seems great. In an election

20:37

campaign context, like you said, it

20:39

you know, it just pops up somewhere and a million

20:41

people might share it. Yeah. They might issue a denial,

20:43

and might even later out be

20:45

publicly recognized by some independent

20:47

agency this was a deep

20:49

fake. That's still like millions of people

20:51

who heard that first thing. Yeah. Yep. That's a good point. And

20:53

I mean, in a domestic

20:55

election campaign. That's definitely a few

20:57

notches, you know, less of importance than,

21:00

you know, say like a, you know, two nuclear nuclear

21:02

and states going out each other. But that could be

21:04

problem in some way like India and Pakistan

21:06

where, like, they are two nuclear

21:08

armed states that are very, you know,

21:10

there's quite a lot tension there. And, you know, something

21:13

happening there could be very very

21:15

that's very scary. That's a very scary and very

21:18

important thing to sort of, you know, point out

21:20

that the world is larger than our little backyard.

21:22

And, like, there could be implications out the one

21:24

there for sure. And I think it absolutely

21:27

would have the power to swing domestic election

21:29

campaign. I'm not sure or maybe not swing, but like

21:31

affected in some Yeah. It affected at least on the air.

21:33

I think it's interesting that it took

21:35

me watching these hilarious TikTok videos to

21:37

think about it. And I just wonder, like,

21:40

it'll take something significant happening

21:42

before everyone realizes, oh, wow. We should

21:44

really have kind of figured how how to deal with this.

21:46

Yeah. The other thing I wanna get your perspective on

21:48

before you wrap up this really interesting,

21:51

slightly terrifying conversation is

21:53

in terms of the Like, there's a debate

21:55

within the arts community -- Yes. Yep.

21:57

-- the role of artificial intelligence.

21:59

Like a lot of artists, I know, and and,

22:02

you know, our colleague was flocked who's a art editor

22:04

here at the age. She's written a fair

22:06

bit about this. You know, AI

22:08

is another tool. Right? can be used

22:10

to create new work.

22:12

It can be used to help you use

22:15

technology in a certain way, in a way that all

22:17

sorts of technologies used to create art these

22:19

days. But then there's another side

22:21

to this argument that says, well, no,

22:23

these kind of tools, a

22:26

derivative, they still are, they

22:29

devalue art by their ability to create

22:31

so much stuff of unknown

22:33

quality so quickly. Where

22:36

do you sit on this? Or what do you think about this

22:38

debate?

22:39

Yeah. Look, I don't think artists will

22:41

ever like, you know, a human artist

22:43

will ever fully be irrelevant.

22:45

I think, like, that should be fairly, you know,

22:49

uncontroversial. There's something like beautiful

22:51

about, like, expression that springs from nothing wrong

22:53

that is made with your own hands or, you know, whichever

22:55

tools you have available. And sort of like,

22:57

you know, removing the steps in between

23:00

your fingers and, like, you know, like,

23:02

actually making a beat on, you know,

23:04

in pro tools or whatever is, like,

23:06

removing some of that reverse from the magic. Right?

23:08

Some of the decisions or the choices you make, which is

23:10

like a part of like creation of art.

23:12

Right? Mhmm. But I don't necessarily

23:15

think that it will be

23:17

great for artists either because, you know, artists, as

23:19

we all know, like, generally, unless

23:21

they're, like, you know, touring the globe,

23:23

doing a sold out shows, or selling

23:26

art into that, you know, like, visual art and talking

23:28

that there's weird, you know, collector's sort of circles

23:30

like this. Unless you're one of those people, you

23:32

don't to the club. Yeah. You're not really well compensated.

23:35

Yeah. So there is like a bit of concern that

23:37

I share, you know, within my

23:39

my my circles, like, that

23:42

like, artists will just sort of no longer

23:44

be able to actually get paid for the

23:46

sort of mega things I do get paid for. So say

23:48

you're an artist writing jingles for like,

23:51

for ads, you know, that is

23:54

a way you can make money on the side when you might

23:56

be doing something that you'd rather be doing. Right?

23:58

You know, expressing yourself more freely. If

24:00

a big company has the ability to generate

24:02

that in the, you know, a few like, or generate

24:05

hundreds of options within a few

24:07

moments, they don't really have the need

24:09

to pay, like, an a suffering artist to

24:11

to create something like something

24:13

that is, you know, unless they're looking for a bespoke

24:15

solution. Right? So you know,

24:17

that's of concern. It like sort of closes

24:19

the avenues for artists to make a living otherwise,

24:22

offer their art and, you know, keep practicing. And

24:25

also, there's question of concentrating the

24:27

ability to make art within the hands of

24:29

a few. So say you're one of these companies who have

24:31

made you know, these AIR generators.

24:34

You then wield an enormous amount of power because

24:36

you can create as much art as you like. You

24:39

you hold the the men's production as it were

24:41

too. To actually create these things.

24:43

And I I think

24:45

history will show that the the consolidation

24:48

and the monopolization of of any

24:50

sort of, you know, platform or

24:53

or tool is generally bad.

24:55

It doesn't necessarily

24:57

create an environment where there is lots of innovation

24:59

there is lots of boundary pushing, genre

25:01

pushing. Yeah.

25:02

I use smart. I think that's right to think

25:04

about it from the perspective of who controls

25:06

these

25:07

things. Yep. Yep. And to what and are

25:09

they using them for? Yeah. Like, there is a world in

25:11

which this kind of technology is

25:13

used to liberate people from very

25:15

boring jobs and tasks and to help them

25:18

create exciting new stuff. But

25:20

under our current sort of

25:22

structures and and and economic situations,

25:25

they'll overwhelmingly be used to minimize

25:27

costs by, you know, laying people off

25:29

and extract as much value and revenue

25:32

for the people on them as

25:33

possible. Yeah. And I think, you

25:35

know, you don't even have to go far back history

25:37

to actually see an example of that happening. Right? Like,

25:39

the dawn of the computer. Exactly. Supposed to

25:41

be, like, you know, oh, we'll all work for four

25:43

day weeks, you

25:44

know, three hours a day, and that'll be it. You'll be able to

25:46

log off and go home. Less than what happened. No.

25:47

We're working twelve hours a

25:48

day, seven days a week. Yeah. And it's getting worse. Exactly.

25:51

And and I think that's the that

25:53

makes me very pessimistic about the application

25:56

in within businesses of AI

25:58

art and AI more generally. Right?

26:00

But then there's also on

26:02

the the positive side, like it it lowers

26:05

the the bar for people to enter, you know,

26:07

artistry. Right? Like, there's no way in hell I

26:09

could make a a beat that quickly and,

26:11

you know, come up with a, like, a four bar. Right?

26:14

And I think that, you know, lowering

26:16

the bar for that, like it gives people who

26:18

have ideas, but maybe not necessarily the skills,

26:20

the ability to express themselves. And I think

26:22

that will create and

26:24

that's not even going into, like, you know, the

26:26

AI generated wrappers, which are mine and controversy.

26:29

Right? But, like, I'm just saying,

26:31

like, some disembodied and,

26:33

you know, sort of, like, an anonymous voice.

26:36

You know, it gives you the opportunity create something

26:38

that may not necessarily be like a a top

26:40

forty hip or something that's

26:42

going to change the way we, you know, like,

26:45

the way we think about the world, like, say, like, to pin

26:47

the butterfly. Did once.

26:49

You know, like, those things may not be possible

26:52

yet or at all with, you know, AI

26:54

generation. But it does get people

26:56

who lack the skills like, you know, the the ability

26:58

to get started or to at least express themselves

27:01

in a way that they wish to. So I don't necessarily think

27:03

that that's a terrible thing. I think that's I think it's quite

27:05

interesting. It's worth considering, but

27:07

unfortunately, we don't get to pick and choose which

27:10

social changes we get. Totally. That's a

27:12

really interesting and succinct

27:14

place to end. A conversation that is

27:17

probably really just starting when you think about

27:19

how we as a society across the

27:20

globe, I think about this stuff. Jim, may I

27:22

thank you so much for your time today.

27:24

Thanks for having

27:24

me.

27:28

This episode of the drop was produced by

27:30

Chi Wang. We'll be airing episodes of

27:33

the drop here every Saturday, so you can hear

27:35

more from the age and Sydney Morning Herald's

27:37

culture team on the latest in the world of pop

27:39

culture and entertainment. And if

27:41

you enjoyed listening to today's episode, You

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can also follow the drop in your favorite

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podcast

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app. I'm Osman Fureki. See

27:48

next week.