0:01

From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning

0:03

Herald and The Age. This is the

0:05

morning edition. I'm Samantha Cylinder

0:08

Morris. It's Thursday, May

0:10

2nd. Nearly

0:14

200 years ago, the Industrial revolution

0:17

radically upended how people experience the

0:19

world where they lived, what work they

0:21

did, and the sort of stress that they endured.

0:23

And now we're on the precipice of

0:25

the next industrial revolution. The

0:28

advent of quantum computers will likely be able

0:30

to help countries win wars and solve

0:32

some of our trickiest social problems,

0:34

according to experts. Today,

0:37

international and political editor Peter

0:39

Hartcher on just how soon the technology

0:42

that Albert Einstein once called spooky

0:44

could change our lives and what

0:46

its inherent dangers might be. So,

0:52

Peter, you've just written that we are on

0:54

the precipice of a new industrial

0:56

revolution. That sounds massive. So

0:58

what sort of revolution are we talking about?

1:00

A revolution in the power

1:02

and speed of computers.

1:06

In particular, I'll quote

1:08

to you, Michelle Simmons, who is

1:10

a professor of quantum technology

1:12

at University of New South Wales.

1:15

She's also one of the world's foremost

1:17

researchers and entrepreneurs because she's

1:19

founded a company called Silicon Quantum

1:22

Research seven years ago,

1:24

which has made

1:26

quantum technologies

1:28

and is about to make its first commercial

1:31

offering this year and is hell

1:33

bent on being in the front rank,

1:35

if not the very, very first company

1:37

to make a functional,

1:40

error corrected quantum computer.

1:42

Well.

1:44

Ultimately, we've set ourselves an audacious

1:46

goal. We want to build not just a

1:48

quantum computer, but a quantum computing industry. Here

1:50

in Australia. We're up against the likes of

1:52

Google, IBM and Microsoft.

1:53

Let me tell you two things, she says, which

1:55

will give you some clue of the dimensions

1:58

of this. She

2:00

says a single computer, one quantum

2:03

computer, a large one that

2:05

is has been perfected and the technology is

2:07

not, not yet perfected. But she says it's

2:09

inevitable that it will be. She also

2:12

says that a single one of these

2:14

quantum computers will have as

2:16

much computing power as

2:18

all the existing computers on the planet.

2:20

Connected together.

2:22

We're pushing the frontiers of technology

2:24

to manipulate individual atoms, to create

2:26

devices that have never existed before.

2:29

And atoms.

2:30

So just think about that. One of these things

2:32

as much as everything every

2:34

defence establishment, every university, every

2:37

science research lab, every major

2:39

corporation, all put together

2:41

one of these things. So it's

2:44

kind of difficult to conceive

2:46

what you could do once there

2:49

are, you know, hundreds, thousands of these

2:51

things around the world if one of

2:53

them has that much power.

2:56

Another thing that she said about

2:58

the the potency

3:00

of these things is that

3:03

a calculation that would take

3:05

an existing. So they call them classical

3:07

computers, the old fashioned legacy

3:09

legacy computer. Yeah. Would take

3:12

thousands of years to compute.

3:14

Would take a quantum computer

3:17

less than an hour. So

3:19

these are two, I guess, metrics for

3:21

getting a sense of well,

3:24

hence the term quantum leap. It would be a

3:26

quantum leap in the power

3:28

and speed of computers.

3:30

Mind boggling, mind boggling.

3:33

And I firmly believe that there's nowhere else in the world

3:35

better to do scientific research.

3:41

Okay. And can you just briefly take me through

3:43

what is the difference between a quantum computer

3:45

and I. Because, you know, we hear a lot about AI.

3:48

Most of us certainly, myself included, do

3:50

not know really how a quantum computer

3:52

works. So what is the difference here?

3:53

So I'm not an expert. Uh, and

3:56

I don't fully comprehend

3:58

well, anything really. But

4:01

the world is complex, right? And life

4:03

is confusing. But, um, in

4:05

this case. So quantum

4:07

computing doesn't pretend

4:09

to do original thinking.

4:12

It doesn't pretend to do machine

4:14

learning, which of

4:16

course AI does does pretend

4:18

to do I say pretend because we're not there

4:20

yet either. The experts say that what we call

4:22

AI is not AI, that when

4:24

we're not there yet, that what we see

4:27

as AI is actually machine learning.

4:29

It's machines, computers that have been

4:31

trained on large amounts of existing data

4:34

and taught how to sort through it and

4:36

try to come up with original constructions

4:39

of what's already there. Quantum computing

4:41

is just turbo charging

4:44

beyond our reasonable conception,

4:47

the speed and power of computers.

4:49

So Michel Simon said they will

4:51

work together and

4:53

they will turbo charge each other. So quantum

4:55

will give much more, obviously vastly

4:58

more processing power to AI. And AI

5:00

supposedly will give

5:02

greater sorting and original research

5:05

capability to whatever quantum computers

5:07

can do. Or as Ed

5:09

Husic put it to me, Ed's the Australia's

5:11

minister for science and industry. He said

5:13

that the power of quantum

5:16

computing will eventually overpower everything

5:18

that AI is doing, and

5:20

eventually lead to just an enormous

5:22

leap that he described as being

5:25

the best metaphor he could come up with was

5:27

the jump from typewriter to computer. But

5:29

I think if you know, one of these things is the equivalent

5:31

of all the computers on Earth,

5:33

that might actually be an understatement, right?

5:35

Okay. And I know one

5:38

of the first thing that comes to mind when you say

5:40

that quantum computing could

5:42

turbocharge AI, some sort of

5:44

sinister ideas come to mind, which we'll

5:46

talk a bit a bit later. But on that point,

5:48

a person no less than Albert Einstein

5:50

has described quantum computing as spooky.

5:53

So let's start there. So what did he mean by that?

5:55

Well, the first thing is quantum technology

5:57

is about and quantum physics is about the

5:59

smallest particles that you can possibly

6:02

imagine. Now.

6:05

The research with atomic

6:07

electronics with quantum

6:10

has allowed these researchers

6:12

to isolate not just one atom,

6:15

which is, you know, obviously pretty

6:17

difficult to conceive or we can't

6:19

see them, but they're pretty small. But

6:22

actually, to control an electron, one

6:24

of the electrons that orbits around

6:27

an atom. So

6:30

the reason that Einstein called this spooky

6:32

is not so much the tininess

6:35

of it. He was all over that.

6:37

What he was talking about was how they work

6:39

together, because he was talking about entanglement,

6:42

which is a principle of getting

6:44

atoms to work together.

6:47

So, for example, again,

6:49

forgive my limited comprehension of this subject,

6:51

but quantum communication,

6:54

which is obviously related but different

6:56

to strictly to quantum computing. But quantum communication

6:59

occurs when you get two atoms

7:02

and they become entangled through a

7:04

process that, you know, I don't think anybody

7:07

actually understands, but we know

7:09

how to do now. Quantum researchers entangled

7:11

two atoms, and

7:13

once entangled, whenever

7:16

one moves, whatever one does, the other

7:18

will do instantaneously.

7:20

Now, if they're in the same room or that's, you know,

7:22

so what? But you can put

7:24

these two atoms a universe apart

7:27

and they will still vibrate

7:30

simultaneously. No time lag.

7:32

It's instantaneous. And this is what

7:34

Einstein meant by spooky, because it's

7:36

impossible for us to imagine how

7:38

that happened. So does that mean it's faster

7:41

than the speed of light, the signal between them?

7:43

Well, as far as we as far as science can

7:45

detect, there is no signal between them. They

7:48

just exist, entangled

7:50

at any distance without

7:53

an apparent signal. So

7:55

imagine that if you're the country that cracks quantum

7:57

communication first in a usable,

8:00

you know, large scale way, I could

8:02

communicate with you, say

8:04

my military commanders, for example, if I'm

8:06

the if I'm the prime minister somewhere

8:09

around the world, instantaneously

8:11

with a signal that nobody can detect, they

8:13

don't even know there's something happening. And

8:15

yet you and I can communicate in

8:17

perfect security instantaneously.

8:20

Imagine if you're the country that has that power

8:23

at first.

8:26

After the break. The practical applications

8:28

of quantum computing.

8:36

The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age are

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Plenty has happened since the first season

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with Scott Johnson's brother Steve and

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findings from the world's first gay

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hate inquiry last year. Bondi,

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Badlands wherever you get your podcasts.

9:07

Peter, I want to turn now to

9:09

one of the main questions you've explored when it comes

9:11

to quantum, which is about its practical

9:13

applications. So what are they

9:15

and how will this new industrial revolution

9:18

change our lives?

9:19

Well.

9:20

To quote again, to quote Michelle Simmons,

9:22

who's eminently quotable, as well as being

9:24

a world authority, which helps,

9:26

she said, look, for some industries,

9:30

there are complex problems that they are unable

9:32

to solve that this stuff

9:34

that quantum computing will solve for them

9:36

very quickly because of the sheer

9:39

power and speed of them.

9:41

So, um, examples,

9:44

since we were talking about defence,

9:46

let me use a defence

9:48

example that the militaries of the world

9:51

have have had on their forefront of their minds

9:53

for years, quietly. They don't advertise this

9:55

stuff. But, um, here's

9:57

the here's the race. At the moment,

10:00

militaries and governments, of course, protect

10:02

their secrets by high level encryption

10:05

so that no one can read it. A

10:07

quantum computer, you know, the first

10:09

large, fully functioning error

10:11

correcting computer, uh, is

10:14

expected to be able to crack any

10:16

encryption very, very

10:18

quickly. So

10:22

that, um, if I'm the first to

10:24

crack it and you're still fumbling around

10:26

with current encryption, I can

10:28

read everything you're saying. I can read all your government's

10:30

secrets. I can read all your country's encryptions.

10:33

Nothing is concealed to me. Everything

10:36

is open. You are an open book. Every

10:38

the whole world, every government, every

10:40

research establishment, military

10:42

base is open. I can read it, but

10:45

you can't. So the first to crack that ability

10:47

obviously has an enormous first mover

10:49

advantage. And here's another, another

10:51

layer in that, in that thinking, it's

10:54

thought that both the US and China

10:56

are currently intercepting each other's, stealing

10:58

each other's data and communications at

11:00

a great old rate, but they can't

11:02

read them because they're heavily encrypted,

11:04

but they're storing it. They're

11:07

not throwing it away or ignoring it. They are stacking the stuff

11:09

up against the day when they will

11:11

have quantum computing to

11:13

read all that stored encryption

11:15

and read all the secrets of the other

11:17

country very, very quickly.

11:20

So the first country to crack this

11:22

will know everything that the other country

11:25

has said, you know, tried to say secretly

11:28

for years and years. So this

11:30

is a this is a threshold that they are all

11:32

chasing. And it's the reason it's one of the reasons

11:35

that China, for example, is thought to have spent

11:38

over 10 billion USD on

11:40

quantum computing already.

11:43

The US government has not

11:45

spent as much. It's spent quite a bit less,

11:47

apparently. But if you look across

11:49

the research sector and the companies

11:51

that some of the biggest companies in the world,

11:53

as well as the biggest governments are pursuing

11:55

this, they're hell bent, spending tens

11:58

of billions of dollars to try and get that advantage.

12:00

So that's one. I'll just give you another quick one,

12:03

because this this can apply to a

12:05

whole range of industries, for example,

12:07

the finance industry, the pharmaceuticals

12:10

industry. Um, anything

12:12

to do with uh, transportation,

12:15

mobility, logistics,

12:18

uh, transport, road, road transport, automotive,

12:21

uh, quantum

12:23

computing can solve the

12:26

most wicked problems that these industries have and

12:28

quite quickly.

12:30

So really you are talking about a technology

12:32

that it could, you know, determine

12:35

who wins a war. It could be something as big as

12:37

a crisis like that. Absolutely. I mean, are

12:39

we talking about a revolution as potentially life

12:41

changing as the last one? Because of course, none of us

12:43

were around for that. That was nearly

12:45

200 years ago. That was, of course, at the center

12:47

of that was going from making things by hand

12:49

to making things by machine. And

12:52

that upended everything from business to economics.

12:54

It even changed, like our social structures,

12:57

you know, from people living in villages to

12:59

urbanization. So are we talking

13:01

about something that big here?

13:03

Well, predictions are difficult, especially about

13:05

the future. Thanks. Yogi Berra. Um, and

13:07

I don't know, you know, we've just been

13:09

talking about some of the known

13:12

unknowns.

13:12

Yes, and unknown unknowns.

13:14

But maybe we

13:16

can at least imagine it as being akin to

13:19

maybe not the original Industrial revolution,

13:21

but maybe the computer revolution, the invention of the

13:23

computer, and the way that that's changed

13:26

lives, cities, industries,

13:28

probably. We can imagine that

13:30

happening without too much trouble. And who knows?

13:32

Sky is, uh, sky's the limit.

13:34

Peter, I want to turn. To the race

13:36

in this new industrial revolution that

13:39

you've mentioned before. There's obviously

13:41

various countries in this race

13:43

to either launch or capitalize

13:45

on this revolution. So you've

13:47

referred to it a bit in terms of what the implications

13:49

will be. But where does Australia sit in this

13:51

race?

13:52

Well, uh, to get.

13:54

The first mover mover advantages of all

13:56

those things we've been talked about. Uh,

13:58

the US and China are the countries that,

14:00

um, have invested most heavily

14:02

to try and master this, but

14:05

so are others, the Japanese,

14:07

the Europeans, they're all over this

14:09

stuff. Everybody around the world, all the

14:11

advanced countries, governments are

14:14

absolutely into this. But so,

14:16

so a lot of big companies and Australia

14:18

turns out to be because of decades of research

14:21

in this area, funded by centres of excellence,

14:24

funded by universities, funded by federal

14:26

and state governments. Australia has

14:29

one of the, I'm told. And according

14:31

to Ed Husic, one of the biggest and best

14:33

qualified quantum workforces in the world,

14:35

it's there is something like 60

14:38

companies in Australia already exist

14:41

pursuing different quantum related

14:43

technologies. But then the company that

14:45

this week received a big dollop of federal

14:48

and Queensland government money, a

14:50

company called CI quantum,

14:52

which is spelt CI quantum, they

14:56

claim that they can do it faster. And

14:58

Husic said to me that if he he

15:00

thinks if these guys can crack the first

15:02

quantum computer error corrected these

15:04

guys at CI quantum, who are two Aussies

15:06

who set up a company they didn't think Australia

15:08

would back them. So they set up this company, CI quantum

15:11

in the US in Palo Alto,

15:14

and now they're being given, uh,

15:16

grants, equity and loans of

15:18

940. So nearly $1

15:20

billion to build

15:23

a manufacturing plant, research and manufacturing

15:26

in Brisbane. And Husic said to me,

15:28

if they can crack this by 26, 27,

15:30

which is pretty tantalizingly close,

15:33

so that'll turbocharge our economy.

15:35

It will turbocharge the whole ecosystem.

15:37

Uh, Jeremy and Terry, who are standing behind

15:40

me, their work is

15:42

probably amongst the most cited in

15:44

quantum research in the world.

15:47

These Aussie geniuses who are with us

15:49

today were taking

15:51

this technology overseas to build.

15:53

Well, we're bringing it home.

15:55

So who knows who

15:57

will get there first. But the race is definitely

15:59

on.

16:00

Uh, this is a game changer.

16:03

We are putting Brisbane on

16:05

the global tech powerhouse

16:07

map. It is that simple

16:10

a joint.

16:10

But Michelle Simmons, the expert you spoke to

16:13

at the University of New South Wales, she

16:15

told you that we're uniquely positioned to sort

16:17

of lead this race. But she also

16:19

said that there are some people holding us back

16:21

here. So what did she mean by that?

16:23

She meant a traditional Australian mentality

16:25

that we can't do it here, that

16:27

we're not good enough, that there's some sort of

16:29

cultural resistance country

16:32

in the world to do this stuff. But

16:35

then the next question, of course, is, well, why?

16:37

And she said, well, she puts it down to three things.

16:39

And she, of course has the option of doing

16:41

this anywhere she wants, but she wants to do it here. And

16:43

she's, uh, thrilled that

16:46

the Australian government and governments, states

16:48

as well, are backing it. But

16:50

she says there are three things. One is the collaborative

16:53

style, uh, in which people

16:55

research here. Another is what

16:57

she called a certain ambition to give it a

16:59

go, not being afraid to try

17:01

new things or experiment. And

17:03

third was you have a workforce here

17:05

from all around the world that

17:07

the best people in the world want to move,

17:09

want to live in Australia and work on cutting

17:11

edge projects. She's got about 70 of the world's

17:14

most brilliant people, you know, physicists,

17:16

mathematicians and others. And she

17:18

said, those things come together to make this the best place

17:21

in the world to do it. But

17:23

she said, I have to keep correcting. She said, especially

17:25

in political circles. I hear people say,

17:28

if we do this, if we can fund this,

17:30

we can be at the forefront,

17:32

we can be in the lead. And she says, I

17:34

have to keep correcting them to say, no, no,

17:36

we are in the lead. We're

17:38

already there.

17:41

I can't be the only one wondering,

17:43

you know, what the unintended consequences of all

17:46

of this might be? So are

17:48

experts thinking about what sort of unintended

17:50

consequences all of this might lead to?

17:52

I'm sure some are not that I know of,

17:54

and I don't think governments

17:57

and the community at

17:59

large have even yet really understood

18:03

the scale and nature

18:05

of the revolution that is unfolding

18:07

around us. Everybody

18:09

is still grappling with AI, and

18:11

that's still the big noise. And it's still a thing,

18:13

obviously, and still got lots of potential.

18:15

But I don't think people have really even begun to

18:18

grapple with the question of quantum. But

18:20

absolutely. I mean, the first country

18:22

to or in the case of countries,

18:24

in the case of, of of European

18:27

colonialism, the countries that had

18:29

guns subdued the world.

18:32

First country to crack quantum computing

18:34

that can communicate. It securely and

18:36

can read everybody else's communications.

18:39

That's obviously, as you said earlier,

18:41

that's a critical capability and you can

18:44

win a war with that. So

18:46

it could transform everything. One

18:48

country could easily achieve

18:51

an unbeatable advantage

18:54

with something like this.

18:56

And it could it could mess up all sorts of things.

18:58

But it's the same with every new technology, right? It

19:01

has some benefits and

19:03

it brings new problems.

19:06

Well, thank you so much, Peter, for your time.

19:08

It's a pleasure.

19:17

Today's episode of The Morning Edition

19:19

was produced by Julia Carcasole,

19:21

with technical assistance by David McMillan.

19:24

Our head of audio is Tom McKendrick.

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Samantha Selinger. Morris, this

19:56

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