0:01

You don't have a poll by

0:03

making everybody fora the media has

0:06

a train in the frame is

0:08

Israel is the oppressor in the

0:10

Palestinians are the press. Shouldn't be

0:12

forced to acknowledge my privilege unless I

0:14

desire for that to be part of

0:16

my interaction with somebody out. What I

0:18

know to be true and why it's

0:21

all of my fellow jersey know to

0:23

be true is that this is the

0:25

most talented generation. Yeah this respect to

0:28

every indicia a disadvantage here to spill

0:30

a racial hierarchy. And I am,

0:32

of course, an angle I certainly

0:35

not. factual. Welcome

0:37

to the Month Debates On every

0:39

episode we provide you with the

0:41

civil and substantive debates on the

0:43

big issue of the day we're

0:45

here to are you are valued

0:47

listener enough information to make up

0:49

your own minds. Today's debate be

0:52

resolved. The Democrats need a new

0:54

nominee. There

0:58

is some movement and I know

1:00

one on one. Or

1:05

maybe we choose my

1:07

words. we were some

1:09

move move burly men

1:11

here. Response from. The.

1:17

The there's been a response. From

1:21

the opposition. Hello!

1:24

I'm your Moderator: Rudyard Griffis.

1:27

An. Elderly man with a poor

1:29

memory. That is how a Special

1:31

Counsel report described Joe Biden, the

1:34

President of the United States. Public

1:36

appearances of the President recently have

1:39

him looking, at times confused and

1:41

forgetting important names and dates. Some

1:44

democrats believe Biden is in actual

1:47

cognitive decline in this is a

1:49

major liability that can no longer

1:51

be ignored. was so much at

1:53

stake in the Twenty Twenty Four

1:55

election and polls showing that. trump

1:57

could be favored to win The

2:00

vote was passed this winter

2:02

and spring. It is now time

2:04

for Brydon to formally step aside

2:06

and for a new candidate to

2:09

take up the reins of the Democratic Party and

2:12

challenge Trump come this November. Here

2:15

is Representative Dean Phillips, who right

2:17

now is vying with Joe Biden

2:19

to be the Democratic Party nominee.

2:23

All I'm asking is that we

2:25

not lose to Donald Trump. That's

2:27

all I'm asking. And my party right

2:29

now is the facilitator of bringing

2:31

Donald Trump back to the White House. That's my

2:33

contention. And frankly, most Democrats know that other than

2:35

the ones that are protecting their own interests. Biden

2:39

supporters, however, believe that his age

2:41

is an asset. Here is First

2:43

Lady Jill Biden. He's

2:45

wise. He has wisdom. He has experience.

2:48

He knows every leader on

2:50

the world stage. He's lived history.

2:53

He knows history. He's thoughtful

2:55

in his decisions. He is

2:58

the right man,

3:00

the right person for

3:02

the job at this moment in

3:05

history. Unlike

3:07

previous candidates, Biden has proven that

3:09

he can form a winning political

3:12

coalition. The risk of replacing

3:14

him this close to an election could

3:16

all but guarantee the defeat of the

3:18

Democratic Party come November and

3:21

the potential for a democratic

3:23

crisis in America with the

3:25

election. Once again, of

3:28

Donald J. Trump. On

3:30

this installment of the Monk Debates Podcast, we're going deep

3:32

into these issues by debating the motion.

3:35

Be it resolved, the Democrats need a

3:37

new nominee. Arguing in favor

3:39

of the resolution is Jeff Weaver. He was

3:41

a senior political adviser on the Bernie Sanders

3:44

presidential campaign in 2020. And

3:46

he's currently serving as an adviser to

3:48

Representative Dean Phillips in his

3:51

campaign to be the Democratic nominee.

3:54

Arguing against the motion is Jim Kessler.

3:57

He's the executive vice president of policy

3:59

at Third World. way an influential

4:02

Washington, D.C. Democratic think tank.

4:05

Jeff, Jim, welcome to the month debate.

4:08

Glad to be here. Great to be here too. We

4:10

could not be having a more topical debate

4:12

today. Our motion be it resolved. The Democrats

4:15

need a new nominee. Jeff Weaver, you're arguing

4:17

in favor of the resolution. Let's have your

4:19

opening statement. Thanks a lot. And thank you,

4:21

Jim, for joining me on this. We've been

4:23

on the show before. It's

4:26

always been informative. We're

4:29

at a very tipping point in our country. And

4:31

I think that the goal in this election has

4:33

to be very focused. And that goal is to

4:35

beat Donald Trump and to prevent

4:37

the return of a very dangerous force

4:40

to the government, anti-democratic.

4:43

Unfortunately, as we've seen in recent polling, voters

4:45

are not happy with the Democratic Party's choice.

4:48

Joe Biden, many people believe that he is

4:51

too old. I don't think he's too old. I think that's

4:54

a surrogate for people believing

4:56

that he's not up to the task. And there's been

4:58

a lot of evidence, and we can go into that

5:00

over the course of this debate, that

5:03

seems to reinforce that for people. His

5:05

polling numbers are historically low for an incumbent president

5:07

who hopes to win. We can

5:09

certainly talk about how he compares to others,

5:12

Barack Obama, for instance, Donald

5:14

Trump himself, who was lost reelection, Bill

5:16

Clinton, George W. Bush and others. So

5:19

we're in a very dangerous time right now. And

5:22

the Democratic Party has chosen to rally around the

5:24

establishment, to rally around Joe Biden. I'm

5:26

going to concede for purpose of this debate unless Jim

5:29

wants to open the door on this, that

5:31

Joe Biden has had, by most measures,

5:33

a very successful presidency in terms of

5:35

passing legislation and moving his agenda

5:37

forward. He has, in many cases, worked not

5:41

only across the aisle, but across the spectrum

5:43

of the Democratic Party from

5:45

the left to the center. So he's

5:47

been very successful in that this is really

5:50

about the future, not about the past.

5:52

And we cannot hitch our

5:54

wagon. So of course, it is not going to make it

5:57

on Election Day. Already, you're seeing

5:59

down ballot. candidates are very nervous. What

6:01

we saw in New Hampshire just recently, a state

6:03

representative was switching parties for fear that, you know,

6:06

Biden's going to drag down a down ballot candidates.

6:08

So for all of these reasons, I think the

6:10

democratic party, it has the opportunity now to

6:12

look for another horse. There are many out there. The

6:15

president himself has said that there are

6:17

many Democrats who are qualified and could beat Donald Trump.

6:19

And I think we should take him up on that.

6:22

Thank you, Jeff Weaver for that

6:24

opening statement. Well, now an opportunity

6:27

for Jim Kessler to provide the

6:29

opposite view, arguing against our motion,

6:31

be it resolved that Democrats need

6:33

a new nominee, Jim,

6:35

let's have your opening remarks. So

6:38

I think the age issue is a legitimate issue.

6:40

It's clearly top of mind if you

6:43

ask voters and when you poll voters as

6:45

well. And I think Republicans have done a

6:47

tremendous job of the last three years making

6:49

the age issue something that they wanted to

6:51

be central. I spend a lot of time

6:54

going on conservative media like Fox news. That

6:56

is a meme that they push over and

6:58

over and over again. I think it's sunk

7:00

in on the other hand. And

7:02

I think this is where Jeff and I all will

7:04

agree is he certainly

7:06

isn't too old to actually be president

7:09

and be a good president because he's been, I

7:12

think the most successful president of

7:14

my lifetime. And, you know,

7:16

he brought the economy back to life after

7:18

COVID and he stripped

7:21

the bark off Vladimir Putin before he

7:23

was able to invade Ukraine and, you

7:25

know, rallied an international

7:27

force out there that was, I

7:29

thought, very creative way of taking

7:32

on Putin and Ukraine and rallying

7:34

NATO. And Ukraine is still

7:36

fighting because of that. And then as

7:38

Jeff mentioned, like he's passed a bunch

7:40

of bipartisan laws, like far

7:42

exceeded what

7:45

you would expect any president

7:47

to do, let alone any president

7:49

in this particular polarized environment.

7:53

The question is, is it in

7:55

spite of his age or because of it? And,

7:58

you know, I would argue. One

8:01

of the things that's made Joe Biden

8:03

an excellent president is that his age

8:05

has given him experience,

8:08

wisdom, empathy,

8:11

deep relationships, patience

8:14

as well. Look, the

8:17

other thing I would just say is it's

8:19

up to voters and they do have another

8:21

choice. Jeff Weaver, which is working for one

8:23

of the candidates, the only candidate really in

8:25

the Democratic primary running against

8:28

Joe Biden. Voters have had

8:30

a chance, at least in a

8:32

handful of states, to make their

8:34

views known. They've really come

8:36

out very, very strongly for Joe Biden on

8:38

it. It's the voters choice too. Thank

8:42

you, Jim. You're listening to our debate

8:44

today. Be it resolve, the Democrats need

8:46

a new nominee. Okay, an opportunity now

8:48

for rebuttals. Let's

8:50

get you reacting to each other's

8:52

opening statements. Jeff, you're up first.

8:56

There's a poll out just out

9:00

that overwhelmingly shows that voters think that he's too

9:02

old. Let me say on the age thing. I

9:04

don't think it's a question of chronological age. I

9:06

worked for, as folks on this show

9:08

know, with Senator Bernie Sanders for years and

9:10

years, ran his campaign in 2016

9:13

when he would have been the oldest

9:15

person ever elected to be the president of the United States.

9:17

It's not a question of age. It's a

9:19

question of ability and all of us age differently.

9:23

We've been told by the establishment that we need to stick

9:25

with Joe Biden, that the polls are bad, but they will

9:27

be getting better. We heard that two years

9:29

ago, two years, a long time. We

9:31

heard 18 months is a long time. Then

9:33

we heard a years long time, but we

9:36

have not yet seen the polls getting better. In

9:38

fact, the polls are getting worse on

9:41

issues that are including foreign policy

9:43

and immigration. Biden's numbers are

9:45

down and they're down the most with Democrats. In

9:48

many ways, the coalition that we can

9:51

certainly talk about, the Middle East and its impact on

9:53

this, with the coalition that Joe Biden put together in

9:55

2020 to win a coalition that

9:57

stretched from sort of John

10:00

Kasich Republicans to sort of

10:02

Bernie Sanders progressives that coalition

10:04

is fracturing and you know,

10:06

to do perhaps some things out of the

10:09

president's control, but that, you know, that that's

10:11

not going to matter on in November when

10:13

Donald Trump gets elected. Just

10:15

a comparison, you know, Joe Biden's favorite roles

10:17

in the most recent poll at 38%, you

10:19

know, Barack Obama at this point was close

10:21

to 50%. Bill Clinton

10:24

was over 50%. George W. Bush was

10:26

over 50%. These are all people

10:28

who got reelected. George Herbert Walker

10:30

Bush was under 40% as

10:32

with Donald Trump and both of them were

10:34

defeated in their reelection efforts. So the signs

10:36

are very, very bad. Biden's favorables are

10:38

underwater by 16 points. Shockingly

10:41

Trump's favorables are only underwater

10:43

by eight points. And

10:45

we do have, you know, whether it's Dean Phillips

10:48

or it's a Governor Newsom or

10:50

Governor Pritzker or Congressman

10:52

O'Connor or Governor Whitmer, you know, there

10:54

are plenty of very talented Democrats out

10:56

there who could pick up the

10:59

flag and carry us to victory, not only in

11:01

the White House, but in

11:03

the House as well and hopefully stem some of the losses

11:06

in the U.S. Senate. Thank

11:08

you, Jeff, for that rebuttal. Okay, Jim, similar

11:10

opportunity for you. You can react to Jeff's

11:12

words off the top or what you've just

11:14

heard now. Well, look,

11:17

I was sure Biden was doing better than the polls.

11:20

That would make me feel a little bit better, but I also

11:22

worked for a presidential candidate

11:24

who in July of the election year was

11:27

up 17 points and ended up losing by

11:29

10. So I've been

11:31

in this business as has Jeff,

11:34

long enough to know things change

11:36

quite a bit. I don't

11:38

think the Biden team has handled the

11:40

age issue well. I

11:42

think they have reacted to it instead

11:45

of being run towards

11:47

it. And Joe

11:50

Biden has had an incredibly

11:52

successful presidency. I mean, incredibly

11:55

successful. It's not

11:57

by accident. You don't stumble into doing

11:59

this. Don't Mr. Magoo your

12:01

way into passing five

12:05

really difficult bipartisan bills

12:08

by putting together a coalition

12:10

to take on Putin, to

12:13

even surprise Putin by releasing

12:15

intelligence that says he's going to invade

12:17

before he did so that

12:21

Ukraine would have a chance. He's

12:23

had successes all over the place. And

12:26

it's an example of someone who is

12:29

playing at or near the top of their

12:31

game. Now I

12:34

get it. I see that

12:36

voters are, you

12:38

know, they have doubts about Joe Biden, some

12:41

of it age, some of it having to do

12:43

with what's going on in the border, some other

12:46

issues, inflation as well. But

12:49

he's had a presidency that

12:51

says this is a guy who's

12:53

playing an A game, not

12:56

a C game or D game. And

12:58

again, you know, they have another choice. Dean

13:01

Phillips is out there. He is

13:03

a reasonable, respectable, you know,

13:06

fair alternative for somebody to look at.

13:09

He hasn't caught a fire. Thank

13:12

you, Jim. You're listening to our debate today. Be

13:14

it resolved the Democrats need a new nominee. I'm

13:16

going to join the conversation and I'll come to

13:18

you first, Jeff. I think

13:20

our listeners would love to

13:23

kind of hear a bit from

13:25

you that actually how a change

13:27

in the leadership of the party

13:29

could occur given the reality that

13:31

the clock is ticking. We are now well

13:34

into 2024. Is

13:37

this even possible for

13:39

the Democrats to switch out Joe

13:42

Biden and to choose

13:44

a new nominee? Oh,

13:47

is that fully possible? You know, Joe Biden

13:49

steps aside tomorrow. Oh, you know, there are

13:51

still primary ballots that other candidates are sure

13:53

would get on rather quickly. And

13:55

we would have something I hate to raise

13:57

the spectrum 1968, but something proceed.

14:00

a kind of 1968 where,

14:03

you know, late candidates getting in,

14:05

including Bobby Kennedy, you know, entered

14:08

some late primaries in order to show support

14:10

among the electorate. Ultimately, the party chose somebody

14:13

who hadn't won a single primary. But

14:15

you know, I don't think that necessarily has to play

14:17

out here. So there is procedurally

14:20

a way to do it, if that's what the

14:22

party wants to do. Oh, boy. Well,

14:25

Jim. And ironically, it's in Chicago again this

14:28

year. Absolutely. So,

14:31

Jim, unpack that, oh, boy. Yeah.

14:34

Let's play with some counterfactual

14:36

history, maybe counterfactual future. You

14:40

have a sense that this could be

14:42

a huge mistake. Chicago's

14:44

68 might be a picnic. I

14:47

mean, this is very hard to do. Okay.

14:51

Just realize that, you know, there's

14:53

there was a couple of ways that Joe

14:56

Biden could bow out of the race. Something

14:58

could, you know, happen to him and he

15:00

bows out of the race or, you

15:02

know, whatever. The thing

15:04

is, is that delegates are

15:06

going to be elected. So it's really too

15:09

late for people to get on the ballot

15:11

almost everywhere. If Dean is Dean Phillips is

15:13

on the ballot in, I think, Jeff

15:16

would know, but at least like 45 states. But,

15:19

you know, some states it's easy to get on

15:22

the ballot. In other states, it is not. And

15:24

we've got Super Tuesday that's coming very, very

15:26

soon. So, you know, hundreds and then thousands

15:29

of delegates are going to be chosen. And

15:32

unless lightning strikes in a bottle, the

15:35

majority, more than the majority, like maybe almost

15:37

every single one of those delegates is going

15:39

to be a Joe Biden

15:41

delegate. Okay. Fast

15:44

forward. He decides to get out of the race

15:46

for whatever reason. And it's Chicago and it's August.

15:48

Well, there's like, I don't know how many delegates,

15:50

let's say there's 4,200 of them, 500

15:54

are super delegates, like people like Chuck Schumer

15:56

and Nancy Pelosi. But the other 3,700 are

16:00

people that look a lot like you

16:02

and me, all right? We're just regular

16:04

people in places all

16:06

over the country. And

16:08

then you would get this bizarre

16:10

attempt, because they're the

16:12

only voters out there, of

16:15

what are you doing to try and woo

16:17

these people and build some sort of coalition?

16:21

And I think if you looked

16:23

at C-SPAN when they were trying to

16:25

elect a speaker and eventually got to

16:27

Mike Johnson, I think it's

16:29

a bad time of 1,000. And

16:32

it would be much viewing, but

16:35

it would look absolutely crazy. Jeff,

16:38

do you got a rebuttal to that? Yeah, look,

16:40

we point to 1968, but

16:43

we forget that FDR was elected in a

16:45

brokerage convention and Abraham Lincoln was elected in

16:47

a brokerage convention. So we

16:50

used to do this. This is exactly how the way we

16:52

used to do it now. I think the way we do it now

16:54

is superior, but we are in a very difficult

16:57

situation here a very,

16:59

in some ways, unique situation where we have such a

17:02

dangerous threat to the country. And we have a

17:04

candidate who, while admittedly

17:06

having had legislative success, is down

17:09

substantially in the polls and in

17:12

favorability. And there's a strong

17:14

likelihood that he will lose. I mean, Jim

17:16

knows that that's true as well, that Biden is

17:18

not a shoe with Biden, especially in my nation.

17:21

I say that as somebody who worked on a

17:23

super PAC to help elect Joe Biden. So, I

17:25

don't wanna see Joe Biden fail, but I'm afraid

17:27

that he will fail. So

17:29

again, 1968 is one example, but

17:32

there are plenty of examples of quote unquote brokerage

17:34

conventions where, you know, I mean, John F Kennedy

17:36

in some ways was elected in a brokerage convention.

17:38

So, you know, they don't have to look

17:40

like 1968 for sure. Jim,

17:44

let me come to you and just pick up on something

17:46

that Jeff just said there, the

17:48

risks involved, right? I mean,

17:50

we're talking about the potential for a

17:52

second Trump presidency and everything that would

17:55

come with that. So

17:57

why isn't this time different in a way? Why, if we

17:59

really... We really wanted to be honest with ourselves as

18:01

much as we mean like, like, like Joe Biden, we

18:04

might, as you say, be impressed

18:06

with his legislative record, his,

18:08

you know, sagacity and

18:11

yeah, his nuance as

18:13

an international statesman. There's

18:16

a bigger thing at play here, the future

18:18

of American democracy. And

18:20

that's the reason why the Democrats need

18:23

a new nominee. Too much is at

18:25

risk. Too much is at play. That's

18:28

your answer. Yeah. And

18:30

I think, you know, Jeff and I were talking

18:32

before the, you know, the most

18:34

went on and we were just saying, we both share this

18:37

view that we want to make sure that, you

18:39

know, that Donald Trump does not

18:41

return to the White House. That is

18:43

the absolute last thing that can happen.

18:47

First of all, there's no such thing as

18:49

like the Democratic Party. Like why don't Democrats

18:51

get together and decide this and that? I

18:53

mean, Jeff's in the Democratic Party.

18:55

I'm in the Democratic Party. I don't think we've

18:57

ever been in the same room together. You know,

18:59

like they're just, there isn't that room. It's an

19:01

adage from the past, you know, so they don't

19:04

mind me to the Christmas party. They don't want

19:06

to buy me to the Christmas party at third

19:08

place. Yeah. Then,

19:10

well, you know, we will this year. Okay. But

19:13

so like it's a pretend thing. So

19:16

we have elections. Presidents,

19:19

when they're successful, they

19:21

run for reelection. And that's, that's the

19:24

normal thing that's being done here. I

19:26

would also add that if Joe

19:28

Biden didn't run, I'm

19:30

not so sure that we would nominate a

19:33

Democrat who has a better chance

19:35

against Donald Trump. Like that's, that's

19:38

an unknowable thing as well.

19:41

And I just want to add, bring one other

19:43

thing into this conversation. If

19:45

this is a one on one race between Joe

19:48

Biden and Donald Trump, I

19:50

do believe that Joe Biden wins that

19:52

race. I think that when Joe Biden

19:54

spends his $1 billion that they're going

19:56

to raise and Donald Trump spends his

19:58

$1 billion. that our

20:01

story, the Biden story is a lot better and

20:03

the Trump story is, people

20:05

need to be reminded of it. The

20:07

most dangerous thing in this race is

20:10

not Joe Biden, it's third party candidates

20:12

in there because there is a coalition

20:15

of voters out there that

20:17

I would just say are the coalition of the reasonable.

20:20

And they might have views that are

20:22

very, very different than my views on

20:24

policies or Jeff's views on policies, but

20:26

they're the same on decency,

20:29

humanity and the big one

20:32

democracy. But

20:34

if that coalition gets splintered,

20:38

then Donald Trump has a chance. I do not

20:40

think Donald Trump has a chance to win more

20:42

than 47% of the

20:44

vote in any circumstance, but

20:46

with several candidates in the

20:48

race as third party candidates,

20:51

47% could be enough. So that's what

20:53

worries me more than Joe Biden's

20:55

age. Jeff,

20:58

let's hear you on this point of just the

21:00

Trump risk, because there are others who would agree

21:02

with Jim that, yes,

21:06

maybe the polls show possibility

21:08

right now, but there's still a lot

21:11

of time between now and November, the

21:13

American economy seems strong, job

21:15

creation remains steady, isn't

21:18

the economy ultimately what really gets

21:21

an incumbent president reelected? And right now,

21:23

it's looking pretty good in America. Well,

21:26

look, I mean, I don't want to get into

21:28

two campaign talking points, but look, you know, the

21:31

macro numbers in the US are very good, but

21:33

you know, there has been a steady decline in

21:35

the standard of living middle class people in the

21:37

United States and working class people that's gone on

21:39

for 40 years. So it's not necessarily Joe Biden's

21:41

fault, but Joe Biden's one of

21:44

the people presiding over that decline. And that's just a

21:46

fact. I mean, that's not really sort of

21:49

open to political debate. And, you know, over

21:51

time, what has happened, and this is why

21:53

Trump is popular, Jim, right, that this conversation

21:56

before, and I think in our last debate, you

21:58

know, people have soured

22:01

on democracy because that has not

22:03

provided them with the standard

22:05

of living that their parents had or

22:07

their grandparents had, or that they think that their

22:09

children should have. And so people begin to sour

22:11

on democracy and they start looking at demagogic

22:14

figures like Donald Trump, who

22:16

are saying, I'll make

22:18

your life better, but the price is throw democracy

22:20

overboard. And democracy is not,

22:23

in the end, probably who loses that fight. So

22:25

we've got to deal with these other structural

22:27

issues, but the problem here

22:29

is that Joe Biden, for

22:32

a host of reasons, and Jim mentions the coalition

22:34

he put together, the coalition of the reasonable, there

22:37

are a bunch of people who are very upset with Joe Biden on a

22:39

number of substantive

22:41

issues, including the Middle East in

22:44

particular. And so his coalition

22:46

is fracturing, and it's fracturing in some places that

22:48

are very important for his reelection. As

22:50

Jim mentions the 47% number, but we

22:52

don't elect presidents by popular

22:54

vote in the United States, otherwise we'd have

22:56

President Hillary Clinton and Al

22:58

Gore, we have this elaborate electoral college system

23:01

where you basically are electing a number of

23:03

delegates from each state, as winner take all,

23:05

and whoever gets the majority wins.

23:07

And so he is doing badly in

23:10

a number of these

23:12

important states like Michigan, which is sort

23:14

of crumbling beneath his feet. And

23:17

so his numbers, a

23:19

Democrat has to win by three or four percentage points

23:22

to have a chance of actually winning the

23:24

electoral college because of the way Democrats over-perform

23:26

in giant states like California and New York.

23:28

So it's a very

23:30

dire situation. And I know, I

23:33

appreciate that Jim is not just sort of blowing it

23:35

off, he does recognize it. I

23:37

do think that Joe Biden might be in

23:39

fact the worst choice. There are

23:41

again, plenty of talented Democrats out

23:44

there who could pick up the banner.

23:47

And we have a Vice President who's very capable.

23:49

We have, like I said, a number of governors,

23:51

governors that I mentioned, Governor Shapiro, Governor Moore. There

23:54

are just a tremendous amount of talent in

23:57

our party. And that talent

23:59

should be allowed. to sort of pick up the banner

24:01

and win, I think. I think against somebody

24:05

who's not Joe Biden, I think Trump

24:07

gets trounced to use a technical

24:09

term. If

24:13

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Simply look to the top navigation

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follow the links. Thanks in advance

24:56

for joining our community. Jim,

25:00

help our listeners understand the

25:04

Kamala Harris question. If

25:07

there was a change in the nominee,

25:10

i.e. Joe Biden left the race, what

25:13

does the party do with Kamala

25:15

Harris? She's

25:17

someone who represents a

25:20

constituency from the

25:22

obviously black female voters who

25:24

were instrumental to Joe Biden's

25:27

successful win

25:29

of your party's nomination

25:31

and arguably a voting cohort

25:34

that are essential to the party

25:37

come this November. Jim,

25:41

how important is Kamala Harris? How important should

25:43

she be to all of our thinking about

25:46

these types of questions? The

25:48

person, Joe Biden didn't run, Kamala Harris

25:51

would be the nominee, hands down.

25:53

That's my view. And

25:56

one of the ways that you win the

25:58

Democratic nomination really, principle way

26:00

is you dominate with

26:02

African-American voters, particularly in the delegate rich

26:04

South. And that's how Joe Biden won

26:07

the nomination. That's how Hillary Clinton won

26:09

the nomination, both against Bernie

26:11

Sanders, who for whatever reason,

26:13

just had a whole team attracting

26:15

African-American support. So

26:18

you look at the democratic

26:21

coalition and particularly

26:24

primary voters in a lot of the

26:26

delegate states and the

26:29

African-American constituency will

26:31

need to feel that they've

26:33

been hurt. And they

26:36

feel that they nominated Joe

26:38

Biden in 2020. And

26:40

they feel they elected Joe Biden in 2020. And,

26:44

you know, he called Barack Obama boss.

26:46

That mattered to African-American

26:48

voters. And the

26:51

idea that, okay, it'll be Gretchen Whitmer

26:54

or a, you know, Josh

26:56

Shapiro or Gavin Newsom, like that

26:58

would fracture the party as

27:00

well. I agree with what

27:03

Jeff is saying, that there's places where the party

27:05

is fractured right now. And you look at Michigan

27:07

in particular, the conflict

27:09

in Israel and in Gaza, that's

27:12

hurting Joe Biden, that's hurting Joe Biden for more than

27:14

age. I don't know

27:16

which Democrat would get out from under

27:19

that one either, but,

27:21

you know, that's the problem

27:23

there. Jeff, let

27:25

me come to you on the Kamala Harris question

27:27

because if we accept Jim's

27:30

reasoning here, again,

27:32

it may not be optimal, may not be the world

27:34

as we wish it, but it's the world as it

27:37

is. She is the vice president. You can't skip over

27:39

her. Partially, her polling

27:41

numbers in a general matchup versus Trump

27:43

are worse than Joe Biden's. Well,

27:46

that's in some polls. And one point of clarification

27:48

that Jim mentioned Senator Sanders, you

27:50

know, I happen to be a leading apologist

27:52

for Senator Sanders, so I have to protect

27:55

his legacy. You know, he won black voters

27:57

under 40 in 2016, as

27:59

he did in 2016. and every other demographic. He did have

28:01

trouble with older voters. That was a cross

28:03

racial problem except in Vermont and

28:06

New Hampshire. And anyway, I'll just leave it at

28:08

that. So the record is stated. Look,

28:10

Kamala Harris certainly has a strong claim

28:12

to be the sort of heir of

28:14

Joe Biden is not in

28:17

the race. But I do think in an

28:19

open environment, she will have

28:21

to compete if Joe Biden, whether he wins or loses

28:24

this time, in 2028, Kamala Harris

28:26

is not the guaranteed nominee. There'll

28:28

be a contest that people will run. And

28:30

there are a bunch of qualified,

28:32

talented people of which she is one.

28:35

And the Democratic Party is a coalition

28:37

party. It's strange to talk to Canadians

28:39

about how it's a party because it

28:41

doesn't really function like a parliamentary party,

28:44

but it is a coalition. And

28:46

you're seeing African-American women are key

28:49

important loyal part of that

28:51

constituency, that coalition. But

28:54

there's also young people in that coalition.

28:56

There's also blue collar people. Fortunately fewer

28:58

and fewer. But blue collar people in

29:00

that coalition, there's Latinos in that coalition,

29:02

fortunately fewer and fewer. But

29:05

so putting together and holding together this

29:07

coalition, we have

29:09

to weigh among the candidates. And that means Kamala

29:11

Harris will certainly be one of the leading contenders.

29:14

I have no doubt about that. But

29:16

does that mean she's guaranteed to be the leader? I

29:19

don't think that's necessarily true. Okay,

29:22

as we move towards closing statements, Jim,

29:24

let me come to you and ask, what would

29:26

your advice be right now to Joe Biden's

29:29

campaign? What do you think they

29:31

should be doing to increase the

29:33

odds that the pressure doesn't

29:36

continue to build for a different

29:38

nominee? What can

29:41

he do? Because that pressure is real.

29:43

It's more than just Jeff Weaver. It's

29:45

all through our media. It's all through

29:47

American kind of political

29:49

debate right now. Are there some

29:51

practical things that he can do to turn this around? I

29:54

think there are practical things he can

29:56

do. And I've felt for a long

29:58

time that they've been... too reactive on

30:00

this issue and they felt they could joke

30:03

it away or, you know, show

30:05

that he's being active or put him on a

30:07

bicycle or, you know, that sort of thing. And

30:10

I just think he needs to address it head on. One

30:12

on one interviews, you know, major

30:14

news broadcaster in which he's addressing

30:16

it forthright and saying, I know

30:19

that people are concerned. It's a legitimate

30:21

concern for people to have. And

30:24

there are certain things I cannot do anymore

30:27

because I'm 81 years

30:29

old and I have pain

30:31

in my ankles and I have a

30:33

lifetime speech impediment that gets a little

30:35

bit worse. But there's also other

30:37

things that it's given me and it's given me wisdom

30:41

and empathy and patience and

30:44

and seeing the broad picture and

30:46

deep relationships. And with some

30:48

people when they age, they become bitter

30:51

and angry and shut off the world. And

30:53

with other people, you know, it brings

30:56

up the best of them. And I hope that what voters

30:58

see is it brings out the best in me. But

31:01

I think you have to I think you have

31:04

to address it the way you would address any

31:06

other major issue out there, which is

31:09

head on. OK,

31:11

good advice. Jeff, what's your advice to

31:14

your candidate, to other people that

31:17

would like to see a change in

31:19

nominee? How is this

31:21

done in a way that doesn't

31:24

fracture the party, that doesn't

31:26

damage risk damaging, in fact,

31:29

Democrats election prospects come November?

31:32

Look, I'm not arguing that Joe Biden is too old. What I'm

31:34

arguing is that the people perceive he's too old. And

31:37

you know, that's not a it's not a false perception. I

31:39

was just watching a video from 2016 where

31:42

he was being interviewed by CNN. And

31:44

you look at the Joe Biden in that interview compared

31:46

to the Joe Biden who appeared at that podium the

31:48

other night and that hastily called

31:51

the other press conference to deal with the special counsel's

31:53

report. It's a totally different human being.

31:55

And that's eight years. And what

31:57

people are thinking and saying.

31:59

because I've been actually out in the world talking

32:02

to real people, even people who support Joe Biden.

32:04

You don't have real doubts. It's not just today. The

32:07

presidency is four years long. And

32:09

if folks don't think that the Republicans

32:12

aren't going to suggest that Joe

32:14

Biden is just trying to hand the presidency over to

32:16

Kamala Harris without her actually being elected, they're

32:19

fooling themselves because the Republicans, of course, are going to make

32:21

that argument. And it's going

32:23

to resonate with some people that with some kind

32:25

of democratic or a shenanigans to sort of perpetuate

32:27

the Biden team, even though Biden's not there.

32:30

So I think we just have to listen to voters.

32:32

I'm a big believer in democracy as a gym. And

32:35

that means listening to voters, the voters have

32:37

been consistently saying the same

32:40

thing for a couple of

32:42

years now. And again, it's getting worse.

32:44

They don't want Joe Biden versus Trump

32:46

this time. We have an opportunity

32:48

to provide them with an alternative who

32:50

can excite them, who can move the country forward.

32:53

Joe Biden did a great service by defeating Trump. And

32:55

he should take the applause and

32:58

pass the baton to someone else. Thank

33:01

you, Jeff. You're listening to our debate today. Be

33:04

it resolved the Democrats need a new nominee. Let's

33:06

go to closing statements. Jim Kessler, you're our first.

33:10

Great. And thank you so much for having me on. And it's

33:12

always great to be on with Jeff, who

33:14

we've been on opposite sides of the Democratic

33:16

Party for many, many years, but have always

33:18

been able to have great conversations. Look,

33:21

I agree with what Jeff just said.

33:24

Voters are always right. And

33:27

we've had a couple of instances where

33:29

Joe Biden is running in

33:31

a competitive primary against Dean Phillips. And

33:34

I really respect what Dean Phillips is doing. He is

33:37

saying, look, it's time for a new generation

33:39

of leadership. He is an impressive person. He's

33:41

gone out there. He's talked to voters. And

33:44

frankly, it's fallen flat. The voters have said,

33:46

you know, we want to

33:48

stick with Joe Biden in

33:51

New Hampshire, which was really like an

33:53

ideal scenario for an upset there. Joe

33:55

Biden's thing wasn't even on the ballot. Dean

33:58

Phillips camped out there. you know,

34:00

for a month. And, you

34:03

know, he's still won 65 to

34:05

19%. So it was so

34:08

you can listen to voters, what they're saying in polls,

34:10

and then you can listen to voters what they're doing

34:13

when they're actually voting. My

34:15

hope is this at a certain point, this race is

34:17

going to be over. I think King Phillips is running

34:20

a spirited effort. I think

34:22

he's going to lose. But

34:25

in the end, my hope is that Democrats are like,

34:27

okay, we tested this, we're

34:29

sticking with Joe Biden, and we're going to

34:31

stick with them. You

34:33

know, hook, line and sinker, because

34:35

he's been an excellent president, okay,

34:37

he's been an excellent president. And

34:40

the nightmare scenario beyond any horror

34:43

film we've ever seen in our

34:45

lives is one

34:48

election away from destroying everything this

34:50

country's built in the last 250

34:53

years. Thank

34:55

you, Jim Kessler. Okay, Jeff Weaver, we're going

34:57

to give you the last word in our

34:59

debate today. Be it resolved, the Democrats need

35:01

a new nominee. Yeah,

35:04

let me again thank everybody, including

35:06

Jim and all the folks at

35:08

the monk debates. Look,

35:10

you know, as much as I appreciate the

35:12

kind words about Dean Phillips, you know,

35:14

the truth of the matter is that we have not really had an

35:17

open and democratic primary process

35:20

this time, as Jim knows, you

35:22

know, the schedule was rearranged to benefit Joe

35:24

Biden to shield him from a competition in

35:27

some states in this country, Florida, North Carolina,

35:29

and Tennessee. Dean Phillips

35:31

was kept off the ballot by party

35:34

machinations in Wisconsin, they tried

35:36

to do that in the Supreme Court, Wisconsin

35:38

overturned it, the Attorney to the Secretary of

35:40

State in Massachusetts overturned what the Democratic Party

35:42

was trying to do there. So there really

35:44

has not been an open debate and I

35:47

could give you I won't because I don't want to help them

35:49

but you know, dozens and

35:51

dozens and dozens of consultants and other political people

35:53

in Washington DC that I have tried to recruit

35:55

to this campaign who wouldn't

35:58

go near it, don't even want to know that anyone to

36:00

know that I've talked to them about it because of

36:02

the punishment that will come down from on

36:04

high. So let's not call this an

36:06

open primary. I mean, there's no debates. I mean,

36:08

one of the reasons that Jim mentioned something very,

36:10

very important, which is these third party candidates who

36:12

have to be defeated in November. But let's be

36:14

clear. If Joe Biden had agreed to

36:17

debate, as we normally do, in the Democratic party

36:19

process, I guarantee you that Kennedy will be running

36:21

inside the party. Cornel West will be running inside

36:23

the party. I don't know about Jill Stein. But

36:25

I can guarantee you these people will be running

36:27

inside the party because it would want to get

36:29

the exposure that one gets from having a presidential

36:31

debate. So in some ways,

36:33

the president's people in trying to massage

36:35

the system so that it shields Joe

36:38

Biden from any kind of real

36:40

competition in this contest, which

36:42

they're very afraid of, has led

36:45

to many of the problems that they're now facing, including

36:47

at least their party candidate. So in some ways, it's

36:49

a creature of their own making. And

36:51

I'm not quite sure how they undo it. I will

36:53

certainly do my part once this is all settled to

36:56

make sure the Democratic nominee is elected. But,

36:58

you know, many of these problems, again, are

37:00

problems of their own making because they themselves

37:02

do not have the confidence in Joe Biden

37:05

that one would expect that they would have in

37:07

the sitting president. Thank

37:09

you, Jeff Weaver, for that closing statement.

37:11

And thank you both, gentlemen, for a

37:13

terrific debate on an important topic. You

37:15

addressed it with civility, substance, terrific

37:18

knowledge and insight. We really appreciate

37:20

you joining the program today

37:22

and helping our community think through

37:25

this important debate. So thank you

37:27

again for your time and let's

37:29

do this again soon. Thank

37:32

you. Thank you. Well,

37:38

that wraps up today's debate. I want to thank our participants,

37:40

Jeff and Jim. They've certainly given up a lot to think

37:42

about. If you have feedback or

37:44

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