0:02

We can on an errand. adam politically

0:04

correct time. We already know that

0:06

the braces evidence against yours voluminous to. There's

0:08

a lot in a. Of course current

0:11

person. Has a presumption of innocence.

0:13

And a court will decide. What?

0:16

Happened. And did not have. I'm

0:18

driving up till the Trade Value

0:20

Magistrates Court. It's the first time

0:23

I see Erin Pannison in five

0:25

months. I'm Brooke Gray but Crane

0:27

and this is the Mushroom. Cook.

0:33

So I'm driving to Gibbs Land. It's

0:35

an hour and a half from Melbourne

0:37

Cbd. It's about eight am. I've been

0:40

on the right for about an hour.

0:43

I'm meeting my colleague Ashok going

0:45

down at the Colts. Your

0:48

destination is on the right. Time

0:53

pops in. Producer

1:01

and dryer annihilate the car

1:04

and walked towards pool where

1:06

ashes waiting for us. Hello!

1:09

Ah, focus the odd. So we

1:11

just standing outside the court. We're

1:14

not going to go in yet.

1:16

We can't record inside the courtroom

1:18

an ash. Can you explain to

1:20

our audience why this is so?

1:22

Yeah? So it's actually a fence

1:24

in Victoria? To record anything inside a

1:26

court building. With that they've videos,

1:28

photos, or any audio so we can't actually

1:30

record anything in the courtroom to get up

1:33

a transcript or anything like that. We've got

1:35

a real I now know it's completely everything

1:37

that we say in here. so gotta be

1:39

the eyes and ears to the community in

1:41

what can sometimes be very. Short court

1:44

hearing. Sometimes just minutes. So outside

1:46

of the court building, but just through

1:48

the glass. What we can say, it

1:50

almost looks like going inside an airport.

1:52

A large number of security guards. There's

1:55

an x ray machine, there's a walk

1:57

through security and swipe stick as well.

1:59

So. because you can't take anything

2:01

inside a court. Sometimes I've had

2:03

cans of tuna taken off me in a

2:05

court because they've considered that

2:07

a weapon, which seems bizarre. So

2:10

we have to be very careful not to take any

2:12

metal drink bottles or anything like that. We have seen

2:14

a couple of journalists stream in, courts only open at

2:17

9 o'clock for about a 9.30 or a 10 o'clock

2:19

start. So it

2:21

can be quite quiet, but this will get

2:23

quite bustling and busy in the morning because

2:25

matters are always listed from about 10 o'clock

2:28

and it'll be a very busy courtroom after that. It's

2:30

still kind of quiet outside. It's 9.20 now. I

2:33

thought it would be a little bit busier. So

2:36

you were at Aaron Patterson's filing hearing, weren't you?

2:38

Yes. It was a media

2:40

circus. Yeah, okay. So because this

2:42

is more of a procedural hearing

2:44

and also Aaron Patterson is appearing

2:47

via video link, a lot

2:49

of journalists will think, well, maybe it's easier for me

2:51

to be able to see and hear things and then

2:54

relay that if I'm also in a video link.

2:56

And it's easier to do that from say the

2:58

comfort of their office or the comfort of their

3:00

home. So what's going to happen with us when we

3:03

walk into the court building, there's going to be a

3:05

video screen up in the corner. It's going to be

3:07

a bit more difficult for us to see. We're going

3:09

to aim to have that video on a laptop that

3:11

we can see as well. We thought

3:13

it was important to be here today to make sure that

3:15

we can talk to anyone who might also appear

3:17

for the court hearing. But

3:20

it's not going to be anywhere near as busy as it was

3:22

that day in the filing hearing when you saw that

3:25

media circus. More

3:28

journalists start to arise and Ash and I

3:31

walk inside and turn off the mic. So

3:59

Aaron Patterson's here. has just happened and

4:01

all the media have rushed outside.

4:03

We are waiting for anyone to

4:05

speak. Erin Patterson's lawyers

4:08

did not appear in person. They appeared

4:10

via an online link. So

4:12

I don't really know why

4:14

everyone is standing out here

4:16

but there are

4:19

three camera people, a

4:22

photographer and about

4:26

eight or so journalists standing

4:28

outside. Ash is currently

4:30

filing the story for online and

4:32

then I'll speak to her afterwards in more detail

4:34

about what happened. So it

4:39

was interesting, Erin appeared via the video link.

4:42

She had a blue prison

4:44

jumper on, she had reading glasses and

4:47

her hair was pulled back in a

4:49

scrunchie. She looked quite emotionless.

4:51

She was staring into the camera blinking

4:53

and looking down at her hands. In

5:03

the end no one came out to meet the

5:05

media. There were no friends or family present at

5:07

the hearing or at least not in

5:09

person. There were a lot

5:12

of people on the video link.

5:14

Some people were anonymous. There were

5:16

also other journalists including international media.

5:19

Let's just go to the car so we

5:22

can get somewhere a bit quieter. So

5:28

Ash and I and our producer

5:31

are sitting in the car opposite

5:33

the Latrobe Valley Magistrates Court. We've

5:36

got two microphones set up on the

5:39

car console while our producer is in the

5:41

back checking audio levels. So

5:43

Ash, what happened in court? So

5:46

we just learned some pretty interesting

5:48

detail. Erin Patterson is really

5:50

keen for her case to progress in Gippsland.

5:52

She doesn't want it to go to the

5:55

city. She wants it to proceed

5:57

in the Latrobe Valley Magistrates Court and

6:00

she's willing to have the

6:02

case delayed potentially months for

6:04

that to happen. So Magistrate Tim

6:07

Walsh opened up the session after

6:09

a slight hiccup because her defence lawyers actually

6:11

appeared on the wrong link and

6:13

he said that he'd brought on the hearing

6:15

a week early because he's going on leave

6:17

next week and he just wanted to talk

6:19

to the lawyers about how this case is

6:21

going to progress. He said that there's no

6:23

time for the case to be heard in

6:25

the Latrobe Valley Magistrates Court this year and

6:28

even though that was the case, Erin

6:30

Patterson's defence lawyer Colin Mandy

6:33

Essie said she knows that

6:35

and she still wants it to proceed here

6:37

even if that means she's on remand for

6:39

14 to 15 months until her case can

6:41

be heard in the local court. And

6:44

is that unusual that she is very adamant

6:46

that she wants her case heard at Latrobe

6:48

Valley? Not really. I

6:50

mean it might be easier to have it in Melbourne because they

6:53

have time for it, there's more courts

6:55

available and the lawyers are

6:58

often based there but for the

7:00

accused who wants the case to proceed

7:02

in their local area where they live and also

7:04

for the ease of witnesses to be able to travel

7:06

to the court, if it

7:09

was moved to Melbourne all of the people who

7:11

have to give evidence in the case may also

7:13

have to go down to Melbourne and

7:15

often there's a lot of delay in calling

7:17

witnesses. It might take a couple of days.

7:20

So for the ease of witnesses it

7:22

might be better to have it locally

7:24

and also because defence often want to

7:26

question witnesses in person. They don't really

7:29

like to do that process via video

7:31

link because you don't have as much of a connection

7:33

with that person. So that

7:35

may be the reason for it or they might have an

7:37

ulterior reason that either way they want it

7:40

heard in the Gippsland area. What

7:42

did Magistrate Welsh say about the legal

7:44

process? He said that he'd

7:46

seen the brief of evidence and he described it

7:48

as quite voluminous. So what's

7:50

happened is Aaron Patterson's defence lawyer,

7:53

new defence lawyer who's replaced Philip

7:55

Dunn, Casey, it's now a defence

7:57

barrister called Colin Mandy, S.A. He

8:01

has sought a particular timeframe

8:03

from the court for when they want

8:05

this Committal hearing to be heard in the

8:07

local court. A Committal hearing is where all

8:09

the witnesses come along and they test all

8:11

the evidence against Erin Patterson to determine whether

8:14

there's enough evidence to send her up to

8:16

trial in a higher court being the Supreme

8:18

Court in Victoria. So what we learned in

8:20

the court hearing just then is that they

8:22

expect the Committal hearing to take three weeks

8:24

so that sounds like there's a decent number

8:27

of witnesses that are expected to be called.

8:29

So Magistrate Walsh said that the case

8:32

couldn't be heard in the Boletrope Valley

8:34

Magistrates Court before the end of the year

8:36

so he said you've got two options. One

8:38

option was to send it to the Melbourne

8:40

Magistrates Court where they have about 30 courtrooms

8:42

at La Trobe Valley. They only have six

8:44

or they could fast track the case up

8:46

to the Supreme Court. What that means is

8:49

Erin Patterson could forego the right

8:51

to have the evidence tested against

8:53

her in the lower court and just have that

8:55

sent straight up to the Supreme Court where they

8:57

would prepare the case for trial. So

9:00

it means that a magistrate would not

9:02

hear the evidence and at a Committal sometimes

9:04

what happens is a magistrate says there's not

9:06

enough here for her to face a trial

9:09

or there's not enough here for her to

9:11

face a trial on these charges. We've seen

9:13

charges withdrawn on a regular basis in the

9:16

Magistrates Court so that they're no longer facing

9:18

them at trial when they get to Supreme

9:20

or if it gets fast-tracked then a jury

9:22

decides whether or not there's enough

9:25

there for her to be found guilty on

9:27

those offences. News

9:31

doesn't have to be boring. The Brits have

9:33

given Prince Harry a new nickname after yet

9:35

another tell-all interview. Oh god is it the

9:37

ginger wind up? Met

9:39

the team at news.com.au get you up to

9:42

speed each day with their podcast from the

9:44

Newsroom. A couple were busted joining the Mile

9:46

High Club. Well I guess I can't

9:48

fly Virgin anymore. Politics for red

9:50

carpets, royals. Get all the goth in

9:53

just a few minutes. Follow from the

9:55

Newsroom wherever you get your podcast from. So

9:58

why would she choose to have her case?

10:00

in a local court rather than in Melbourne? Well,

10:03

consider it from a defence position. You

10:06

are cross-examining witnesses, most

10:09

of whom live in the local area. You

10:11

don't want them to travel necessarily all the

10:13

way to Melbourne, two hours, to be called

10:15

to give evidence. They could be waiting

10:17

a couple of days to be called.

10:19

It's a really lengthy process. And

10:23

it's much easier for defence lawyers

10:25

to cross-examine a witness in person

10:27

rather than via video link. They're

10:30

there, they're in the flesh. You get

10:32

a better feeling of their

10:34

reactions and things. And from

10:36

a defence perspective, it's quite important to be

10:39

able to see

10:41

and hear people right there, to be

10:43

able to really

10:45

get the evidence out of them that you're looking

10:48

for. So what's the benefit

10:50

in doing what Erin Patterson is doing?

10:53

Well, if she has a committal hearing,

10:55

her defence lawyers are going to know what

10:57

the prosecution case is. They're going to know what

10:59

the witnesses have to say. It all has to be

11:02

tested before a magistrate. And then they also get the

11:04

opportunity for a magistrate to go, there's

11:06

not enough in this, so I'm going to scrap that

11:08

charge, and it's not going to go up to

11:10

supreme. So it's an

11:12

opportunity to reduce the number

11:14

of charges or even potentially have the whole case

11:16

thrown out before it goes up to a high

11:19

court and also to learn more

11:21

about who's going to say what, how are

11:23

they going to say it, and basically

11:26

just test the case before it goes to

11:28

trial. And is it

11:31

unusual for accused to change

11:33

lawyers throughout the legal process? Yeah,

11:35

I mean, in a case like this, it's going to take

11:38

a really long time for it to get up, I think.

11:40

So the committal process that we're talking about here, where

11:42

you test the evidence in a lower court, that

11:45

can take a year maybe. I mean,

11:47

if you're on a lower offence, if you're

11:49

in like an assault or something, maybe a

11:51

couple of months, a triple murder and a

11:53

five-time attempted murder, it's going to

11:55

take a while. Like the witness list is going to be long.

11:58

There's going to be a lot to be done. go through we already know

12:01

that the brief is evidence against her as voluminous

12:03

so there's a lot in it. There's

12:05

a potential that this case will not be heard at

12:07

trial before a jury until 2026. So

12:11

you want to make sure that everyone who's

12:13

involved from the get-go is going

12:16

to persist through it for the next couple of

12:18

years. So you

12:20

want to make sure that your defence law

12:23

is available, has

12:25

the willingness to sit off something for two

12:27

years and the determination

12:29

to stick with it. Like it's their

12:32

high stress scenarios these cases

12:34

and the trial will take, I mean

12:36

the committal hearing is going to be three weeks. Imagine how

12:38

long the trial is going to be. So

12:46

while I was trying to get down everything that

12:48

we were hearing in court you were focusing

12:50

on what we were seeing. Why is that important for

12:53

the community to be aware of what was going on

12:55

inside the court from a visual perspective? Yeah

12:57

look because Camara's can't actually go into the

12:59

courtroom it's up to the journalist to describe

13:02

what the accused looks like at the

13:04

time. It paints a picture to the community,

13:06

it gives people an idea

13:08

of what Erin looks like, what she's

13:10

wearing, what emotion she might

13:12

be showing on her face and I

13:14

guess if she did say something substantial

13:16

that would be of interest to readers.

13:20

And do her lawyers have to appear in person

13:23

in court? No so

13:25

what we saw today is the

13:27

only people in court were journalists pretty

13:29

much, a police prosecutor

13:31

for a different case and a

13:33

couple of local witnesses, people

13:35

who were just coming to observe or were waiting

13:38

for their own matter. All of

13:40

the lawyers appeared via video link so

13:43

the court provides people permission to do

13:46

that. If they don't want to

13:48

travel two hours from Melbourne, Erin

13:50

Patterson was also on a video link so all the

13:52

parties who were appearing were on the video. They've been

13:55

given permission again to do that on May 7

13:57

so we're going to see similar similar stuff. things

14:00

at that stage. So Ash, on May 7th,

14:03

what will happen in court? So

14:05

it's another Committal Mention, which is a

14:07

preliminary hearing before the evidence can get

14:09

tested against Aaron. We'll come

14:11

back, we'll learn if there's been any

14:13

decision by Magistrate Walsh about whether or

14:15

not to send the case to Melbourne,

14:17

whether he's willing to list it in

14:20

the La Trobe Valley Magistrates Court potentially

14:22

next year, which means that Aaron could

14:24

choose to stay on remand for a

14:26

longer period of time. On remand basically

14:28

just means that she'll remain behind bars

14:31

until her criminal case can be heard.

14:33

So we'll get a bit more of

14:35

an idea on the timeline that this case will run

14:37

and where everyone is

14:39

at too. They've got to file some formal

14:41

documents to say what witnesses, the defence, want

14:43

to call. They're going to do

14:46

that in the next two weeks and then on

14:48

May 7th we'll really just get an update on

14:50

where everything is and how this case is going

14:52

to unfold. It's not going to be a major

14:54

hearing on May 7th. So

14:56

it'll be another preliminary hearing where we're

14:58

going to continue to have these preliminary

15:00

Committal Mentions where they get all of

15:02

their ducks in a row pretty much to

15:05

prepare for the Committal Hearing and

15:07

hopefully that happens this year if

15:10

it goes to Melbourne or it

15:12

might happen next year or it might

15:14

not happen at all because it's possible it could

15:17

be fast-tracked to the Supreme Court. But

15:19

it sounds like Aaron Patterson would choose to

15:21

have a Committal first. He doesn't

15:23

necessarily want to be fast-tracked. So

15:27

on May 7th, what will

15:29

likely take place in court? So Magistrate

15:31

Walsh has asked that the

15:33

case come back before him in two weeks' time.

15:36

In the meantime, he wants the defence

15:38

to file what's called a Form 32.

15:40

So it's a formal application for

15:42

witnesses. They've already provided a witness list

15:45

to the prosecution of who they expect

15:47

to call but they have

15:49

to formalise that with a Form 32 and describe

15:51

why they want these witnesses before the court to

15:53

give evidence, what the reason for that is. The

15:56

purpose of doing that is to ensure that

15:59

there's no... court time that's wasted.

16:01

I don't want witnesses that aren't necessary to the

16:03

case to be called on and take

16:06

up a day or two's evidence when they're not required. So

16:09

the court is aware of everything before the

16:11

case goes to committal stage and then before

16:13

it gets to trial. They know all of

16:15

the witnesses, what they're going to say, what

16:17

their statements say. And with the barrister for

16:19

Erin Patterson changing, we asked Crime Writer and

16:21

host of the Life and Crimes Podcast, Andrea

16:24

Rule, to dial in from Melbourne and

16:26

explain who Colin Mandy is. Well,

16:31

Colin Mandy, the Senior Counsel, would have been

16:33

called the Queens Counsel in the good old

16:35

days. Colin Mandy, Senior

16:37

Counsel, has been at the bar since

16:39

the year 2000. So he's had 24 years experience at the

16:44

top end of the Victorian

16:46

bar and that work has

16:49

taken him all over Australia. He

16:51

defended murdering Perth. He defended

16:54

an alleged drug dealer in

16:56

Sydney. He's done trials in

16:58

Brisbane and Darwin. He's figured

17:00

in a terrorism trial defending an

17:02

alleged terrorist and he's done

17:05

fraud and white collar work. So as

17:07

a barrister, Colin Mandy

17:09

is a total all-rounder.

17:12

He was admitted as a barrister back in 1992

17:14

and as I said to the bar in the

17:16

year 2000. Now that

17:19

means he's done about 30 years less at

17:22

the bar than Phil Dunn, the man

17:24

he replaces as Erin

17:26

Patterson's barrister. But I'd suggest

17:29

that 24 years

17:31

experience at that level is

17:33

probably sufficient to make

17:35

up for Mr Dunn's, you know, extra

17:38

30 years because I think Phil Dunn

17:40

has been at the bar about 54

17:42

years, which is a monumental effort. Clearly,

17:44

Colin Mandy is one of

17:47

the eminent members of the Melbourne bar. He

17:50

is Vice President of the Victorian bar

17:53

and he is Chairman of

17:55

Parnell's Barruses. Clearly, he's a barrister that

17:58

believes in the power of law. because

18:01

he represented Antoinetta Manella

18:06

and if that name seems familiar it's because she is the

18:08

daughter of basically an Italian gangster

18:10

that was pretty big around

18:12

Carlton around Melbourne until he met a

18:14

sticky end. Later on Antoinetta

18:17

took up with George Moroggi

18:19

who is currently doing

18:21

more than 30 years jail I think 32 years

18:23

for murdering

18:27

another alleged drug

18:29

dealer and column

18:31

Mandy said that she'd

18:33

assisted Moroggi while he's

18:35

in jail with importing 55 million

18:38

dollars worth of drugs and

18:41

Mr. Mandy's explanation for this and

18:44

I thought it was lovely he

18:46

said that she was hugely

18:48

in love with George Moroggi and that

18:51

a fog descended on her and

18:54

he said that love is blind and

18:56

that Antoinetta was blinded

18:59

and there is

19:01

a barrister who believes in romance and

19:04

so Aaron Patterson can look forward to

19:06

someone who A. knows

19:08

his law B. is

19:11

vastly experienced in all forms of

19:14

criminal and alleged criminal behaviour and

19:17

C. believes in the power of

19:19

love. What more could you want in

19:21

a barrister? This

19:25

series was reported by me Brooke

19:27

Griebert Craig it was written and

19:29

produced by me and Jonty Burdett

19:31

it was edited by Andrea Teese

19:33

Evanson our executive producers

19:35

Genevieve Allison and Jordie Atkinson

19:37

for The Herald Sun and

19:40

Nina Young for Newscast you

19:42

can read all about my reporting on

19:44

this case along with a special series

19:47

of features at the mushroomcook.com.au The

20:00

podcast Faith on Trial looks into

20:02

Hillsong, both in Australia and the

20:05

US, and takes both the listener

20:07

and hosts on unexpected twists and

20:09

turns in the story of Brian

20:12

Houston and the singing preachers. There

20:14

are two incidents involving Pastor Brian.

20:16

The Australian journalists uncovered a litany

20:19

of alleged criminal behavior in the

20:21

megachurch. Financial gifts were being given

20:23

to the leaders of the church.

20:26

Listen to Faith on Trial Hillsong

20:28

ad-free on Cry Next Plus on

20:30

Apple Podcasts today or wherever you get

20:32

your podcasts.