0:00

People like sports gambling, they're not concerned about

0:02

the other problems and Arc is. I think

0:04

you know that some part of larger schedule

0:06

harrys an Atom is a shit she right

0:08

gambling addiction to some you have as other

0:10

people but like the ultimate result year for

0:12

me as a situation in which everything is

0:14

being degraded. Him.

0:31

Hello and welcome to check on Save

0:34

Us Made a partnership with The Nation

0:36

Magazine i'm your host Paris Marks and

0:38

the it into this week's episode. Just

0:40

a reminder that this month April is

0:42

or fourth Birthday Notes For years of

0:44

making the show from way back in

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the pandemic lock Down days to here

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where we are today more than a

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two hundred episodes into making the show,

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it's kind of incredible and to celebrate

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your tier. Of support over unpaid john.com

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and if we hit that goal, we're

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going to make a special series. digging

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year and a half, the data centers

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that power all of those Ai tools,

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the increasing energy and water use and

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other resources that go into making this

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and the growing backlash that is happening

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to these technologies and to these data

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centers in particular as larger and larger

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data centers are having to be built

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in more more parts the world in

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order to power these computational. Tools that

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these major tech companies watch rollout and the

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have major consequences that they do not want

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us to think about. Ultimately, that leads us

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need and is the amount that these tech

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companies are trying to push on us the

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supporter. And of course that will also make

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sure that Tackled Save Us is sustainable and we

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can keep making this for a long time to

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come. Now with that said, this week's guess is

2:38

Alan Shepard. Alex is a senior editor

2:40

at the New Republic and he recently

2:42

wrote a piece about sports gambling and

2:44

how much these gambling apps like draft

2:47

kings and fan duel have increasingly become

2:49

part of sports and just how it

2:51

works in the United States since it's

2:53

been legalized in two thousand and eighteen?

2:55

How much that is changing? the way

2:58

sports are done, the way sports or

3:00

broadcasted, the way sports are reported about,

3:02

but also what it means for the

3:04

fans of sports who are engaging in

3:06

it and are now being. Increasingly pressured

3:09

and incentivized to get into gambling to

3:11

a much greater degree than they used

3:13

to in the past and how that

3:15

is leading to a real epidemic and

3:17

crisis of gambling addiction As a result

3:19

of this, because of the types of

3:22

people that these apps are targeting, That.

3:24

Also lead to serious questions about the

3:26

sports themselves and the integrity of those

3:28

sports as you had these incentives to

3:30

push people to gamble. but also when

3:33

you're making bets on different ways that

3:35

the game could play out, there are

3:37

incentives. They are of course to try

3:39

to change the way that the game

3:41

is played so that certain bats become

3:43

more likely to succeed over others. So

3:45

they're a lot of serious and important

3:47

questions here. We touched on the problem

3:50

a Sports Gambling last year with At

3:52

on Ways a junior when we talked

3:54

about the financialisation. Of everything but I

3:56

thought that this was a topic that

3:58

deserved it's own specific attention. And you

4:00

can tell from the interview when we get

4:03

into it. I am not a big sports

4:05

person myself. You know I'm not someone who

4:07

watches the sports. I'm don't have a favorite

4:09

team or anything like that, but I've certainly

4:12

seen you know, my grandfather, my father watching

4:14

sports on Tv. I've seen the way that

4:16

sports betting has increasingly worked. It's way into

4:18

the way that sports are presented. And of

4:21

course, even just as someone who doesn't watch

4:23

sports a lot, I've heard a lot of

4:25

ads for things like Draft Kings of Fan

4:28

Duel on other podcasts and in other media.

4:30

Because these businesses have just become so significant

4:32

in the past few years and a hard

4:35

to dislodge because so many people are making

4:37

money off of them even if they're not,

4:39

you know the gambler's who directly engage with

4:41

them and that makes it difficult to actually

4:44

tackle this problem. So I hope you enjoyed

4:46

this conversation. I had a great time speaking

4:48

with Alex and learning more about this whole

4:51

field of things that he's talking about. because

4:53

as I say, there's a lot on the

4:55

sport side of things that I'm not super

4:57

familiar with. So I hope you enjoyed this

5:00

conversation. As well. If you are a sports

5:02

fan, I hope you feel that I did

5:04

this topic justice, even though I'm not watching

5:06

sports all the time like some people, and

5:08

I certainly don't mean that as a dig.

5:10

Just to be clear, Totally. Fine.

5:12

If you watch sports, this is not

5:14

my thing. So with that said, if

5:16

you liked this week's episode and if

5:18

you just enjoy the show in general

5:20

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5:22

on here, I would ask you to

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Reykjavik, Iceland. Thanks. So much to those

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supporters in the hundreds of others supporting the show.

5:47

over on Patriot on. And. With that said,

5:50

enjoy This we conversation. Alex

5:52

was an attack on save us to

5:54

get a Beer Great to speak with

5:56

you. You have a new piece in

5:58

the New Republic digging into this increasingly

6:00

large problem of sports gambling. And of

6:02

course, anyone who watches sports regularly or

6:04

even occasionally we'll have seen how much

6:06

these apps like draft kings and fan

6:08

duel have become prevalent throughout the sports.

6:10

You know, even if you're not someone

6:12

who regularly watches sports, you might just

6:14

see it advertised on other shows or

6:16

on podcast that you listen to because

6:18

these ways of betting on these games

6:20

have become so common. So I wanted

6:22

to start with where this really came

6:24

from because I feel like ten years

6:26

we didn't see so much of this

6:28

to why has it become. So common

6:30

recently. Yeah, so basically there was a

6:32

law those past midnight. In any to

6:35

that, essentially band states from creating their

6:37

own laws regulating sports gambling and effectively

6:39

banned all forms of sports betting in

6:41

the country. There's certain, I think casinos

6:43

it may have had it. For the

6:45

most part of you want to bet

6:47

on sports, you to go to a

6:49

bookie or use the kind of offshore

6:51

account somewhere. Basically what happened was that

6:54

in two thousand and eighteen. New.

6:56

Jersey had been sort of suing

6:58

to try that legalized sports betting

7:00

effectively and ideas and eighteen the

7:02

supreme court ruled that the law

7:04

that headbands sports betting was unconstitutional.

7:06

The weather we've seen kind of

7:08

conservative supreme court do again and

7:10

again and to sort of kicked

7:12

issues had been regulated. By. The

7:14

federal government in some way back to the states. And

7:17

since then there has been a total explosion.

7:19

New Jersey was first visit sued. They were

7:21

basically ready to rock as soon as this.

7:24

Law. Was passed a I think. Here.

7:26

In New York it I could take the

7:29

train to the Meadowlands and did a couple

7:31

times do place bestselling as early as twenty

7:33

nineteen. but yeah, basically. By.

7:35

That the and that a pandemic. Or

7:38

that you quote unquote in this pandemic.

7:40

there were law that a pastor legalize

7:42

setting in dozens of states. Right now,

7:44

it's at thirty eight plus Washington, D

7:46

C. So. You know, I

7:48

think in theory what you had was

7:51

the situation in which you know is

7:53

a kind of classic states rights issue,

7:55

right? He died. Classic kind of dry

7:57

constitutional problem, but states wanted to legalize

7:59

work. Because it the revenue generator right?

8:01

A You can tax the hell out of

8:04

it and you can make a ton of

8:06

money. Read So when this ruling came down

8:08

and be estimates were that, you know it

8:10

could open up some the like hundred fifty

8:13

billion dollars nationally and he basically seen a

8:15

steady increase. You know, up to close to

8:17

that number now it just in the intervening

8:19

five years and new for the most part.

8:22

there are some restrictions. I agree

8:24

on this date. but you know for the

8:26

most part if you want to gamble on

8:28

sports yeah I think the thing that the

8:30

Zebra corporate I didn't consider the time was

8:33

that you didn't need. To. Go

8:35

to a casino anymore right? that? you could

8:37

just do everything on your phone. And I

8:39

think that's when I see the shift that

8:41

I don't even think that you know I

8:44

was reading through some the covered at the

8:46

time that people didn't quite anticipate happening that

8:48

what you've seen. Is an explosion?

8:50

Yeah oh yeah said sports books and like

8:52

unique even go to some arenas right where

8:54

there is an actual sports book in the

8:57

lobby somewhere. But for the most part if

8:59

you want a bad if I want to

9:01

bet on sports your New York I can

9:03

mean a load draft kings for my phone

9:06

or fan and will and then various casinos

9:08

and Gm being the biggest one. Also their

9:10

own sports as as well. But what you've

9:12

seen as a really fast embrace of sports

9:15

gambling both by states but also by what

9:17

are essentially tech companies that have game a

9:19

find. Sports betting even more than it already

9:21

is Ride, So the explosion of kind of

9:23

like profits in particular is a. Is.

9:26

A big one. This are extraordinarily profitable. For

9:28

game like a risk is headed, they don't

9:30

hit very often and if you're doing individual

9:32

profits are almost always gonna lose money. And.

9:35

You're very rarely get a make a lot of

9:37

money and that's sort of like for the door

9:39

got kicked open here I guess is that know

9:41

all the sudden. You. Know in twenty

9:44

eighteen if I was watching much save

9:46

Liverpool vs Manchester United or the next

9:48

sources the Atlanta Hawks, I would just

9:50

be watching the game. May I may

9:52

be looking into it or something but

9:54

now I can watch it and say

9:56

you know I'm good at it. I

9:58

think that middle Robinson's gonna get. More

10:00

than eleven and a half rebounds in

10:02

this game and josh are it's gonna.

10:04

it's x amount of threes and all

10:06

the sudden you're watching the game differently.

10:08

For states there was a push year

10:10

because essentially it's you know free tax

10:12

revenues are. You don't have to think

10:14

about difficult things like would say in

10:16

L Pure New York you know stay

10:18

local. Taxes are huge the or it

10:20

so you can take that to the

10:22

curb of for sports leagues egg and

10:24

that is another thing that was not

10:26

anticipated. And twenty a team And this happened. You.

10:29

Essentially, there is a sort of hockey stick curve in

10:31

terms of. Revenue. From Tv deals

10:33

and part of that was based on the

10:35

assumption of globalization right that you can open

10:38

up new markets of your the and be

10:40

a you're looking at China, China's gonna billion

10:42

people right? So you're selling Tv rights on

10:44

the presumption that. You're. Going to have

10:46

this huge explosion of money coming in

10:48

and for cable companies for a long

10:50

time, Sports was like the most important

10:52

moat right? that? He. Wanted keep people

10:55

locked in right? like if I want

10:57

to watch the Superbowl, I can't go

10:59

anywhere else for I read a half

11:01

the have a T V and you

11:03

know a connection somewhere but we've seen

11:05

is that we the rise of the

11:07

Netflix model. There's been a in a

11:09

huge surge and and cord cutting. Ah

11:11

that has like. Diminish the ability for sports

11:14

the to sell their Tv rights to

11:16

other companies and degree because of bidding

11:18

wars right? you had a situation for

11:20

and since last year in which the

11:22

Women's World Cup which the huge event

11:25

in growing in popularity you know in

11:27

a lot of countries they were struggling

11:29

to sell Tv rights to it. So

11:31

for league subpoena require constant influx of

11:33

money, Sports gambling also provided. Odd,

11:36

a new revenue stream of the time that

11:38

it was desperately needed. And I think those

11:40

two things of that. there's been a conference

11:42

their right that states want the money. Sports

11:44

leagues want the money. And so

11:46

what? You see and is just

11:48

this huge exponential rise almost every

11:50

year. and with that. We. Should

11:52

talk by the second year in explosion of social

11:54

problems as well that I think have not been

11:56

thought through at all. Yeah, it's

11:58

fascinating to hear and on fourteen not surprising

12:01

but also very disappointing. you know especially when

12:03

we started to get into the broader affects

12:05

their a number of things I wanna pick

12:07

up on there but you talking particular and

12:09

you know I feel like draft kings of

12:11

Vandal are the big ones but you can

12:13

of course in for me if there are

12:16

other Kentucky ones. there were these companies that

12:18

were you know already kind of ready to

12:20

go in two thousand and eighteen when the

12:22

supreme court decision was decided in order to

12:24

kick back to the states is to the

12:26

states could starts legalizing it in the way

12:28

that they have or. The Or these companies

12:31

that really kind of saw the opportunity of

12:33

two thousand and eighteen and then launched after

12:35

that? And does the fact that a lot

12:37

of these bats are being place through apps

12:40

and through these tech companies to that diminish

12:42

the amount of revenue that states potentially receive

12:44

from it? Or does it not really matter

12:47

in that case, This. Is where

12:49

I'm not an expert fully, but I

12:51

believe that. What? Avenue that drafting says

12:53

American and less founded. It has been to

12:55

a twelve again with the assumption that sports

12:57

betting was get a com. Dame. A

12:59

fight at the fights works as a

13:01

com fan duel with started and Europe

13:04

where sports betting is that endemic for

13:06

very long time and particularly in in

13:08

the Uk or least as the area

13:10

which other list serve knowledge or expertise

13:12

of it and experience and so fan

13:14

duel the started i think in Scotland

13:16

and a quickly emerged that sort of

13:18

Paddy Power which is the big sports

13:20

books in the Uk you know again

13:22

the assumption was that. This. I's gonna

13:25

come to the U. S. at some point and

13:27

I think basically me what you saw his by

13:29

the under twenty t they were really ready. Seen.

13:32

A Draft Kings and Fan duel started

13:34

to really advertise heavily in the Us,

13:36

and Twenty Fifteen Twenty sixteen. Slowly

13:38

sort of built up with is. Getting.

13:40

Ready essentially to take over the ahmed

13:42

sports betting here in the Us. And

13:44

we're in terms of the principle of

13:46

it. it's not that different from the

13:49

way that you about sports Four years

13:51

ago, right? Like. They. Are to

13:53

you would have been oddsmaker and they would

13:55

you know usually have some for of expertise

13:57

that they would use to screw you have.

14:00

In some way. But any what you

14:02

see now is the big shift is

14:04

just that it is so easy to

14:06

do and you know they were essentially

14:08

using the exact same kind of tack

14:10

that you see and social media and

14:12

even think the candy crush or something

14:14

to essentially been urging you all the

14:16

time and at the same time I

14:18

think the advertising strategy has been really

14:20

aggressive enough. There is a long period

14:22

in which you couldn't watch sports, listen,

14:24

the sports media you know engages or

14:26

to be and not just be costly

14:28

bombarded with offers a free money, Essentially, you

14:30

know so a nice to get them. Now it's

14:32

a little last but. Your. For Central

14:34

Africa will match you. give us a thousand

14:37

dollars will give you thousand dollars right? And

14:39

obviously that money saving your account so you

14:41

have to keep gambling. Promise. That. More

14:43

or less how it started betting. There is

14:45

another element as well which began as a

14:48

maybe we should probably get into a bit

14:50

later which is that obvious is not a

14:52

particularly great time for the media industry and

14:54

exports. We the and in particular is really

14:56

struggled for a long time in a local

14:58

newspapers the it Out or even larger. Regional.

15:01

Newspapers were kind of hotbed of where

15:03

you get information at the the next

15:05

or whatever. There's been a huge contraction

15:07

in that type of coverage and see,

15:10

advertising money has just been completely destroyed

15:12

by Google and Facebook. So companies like

15:14

The Athletic which was found in the

15:16

mid twenty tens and I was purchased

15:18

by the near kinds of years ago.

15:21

partly. As a way to get rid

15:23

of they're unionized sports section which they successfully

15:25

did last year. To. Evil when

15:27

you look at that kind of coverage

15:29

what you see with all sports that

15:31

except like all the time everything is

15:33

sponsored by fan duel right Shams Geranium

15:36

who the sort of big scoop sky

15:38

And for the athletic your he has

15:40

a kind of. Video show that

15:42

I think is sponsored by Fan Duel right? And

15:44

you know, for a long time I couldn't listen

15:46

to a Because Athletics Yes or flagship. Soccer.

15:49

Podcasts which was started by a bunch of

15:51

guys who used to be at The Guardian

15:53

The that was also sponsored by Paddy Power

15:55

and like when you listen to your it

15:57

is constantly being overwhelmed with offers to bed.

15:59

But. What you really seen I think this

16:01

is that every last two years is like

16:04

on T V and a media in particular.

16:06

it's just people are so much gala all

16:08

the time all the time and it's sponsored

16:10

by everything and that it is than one

16:12

of the sort of insidiously creep elements year

16:15

were you to sing the sort of slow

16:17

rise the flu infection essentially of gambling it

16:19

in sports itself so that you know if

16:21

you're watching baseball now you see win probability

16:23

like thing which is stupid because you know

16:26

the win probability is the score right of

16:28

the Mets are up for the nothing. Years

16:30

and will. the Nets are winning. They're probably going

16:32

to win but that to is like getting where

16:34

you're seeing. this kind of shift read: it merges

16:36

with The Rise and Analytics and Sports as well.

16:38

But. It's a nudge and you

16:40

know again like we'll fly obvious pm on

16:42

try sometimes do I'm working where your you

16:44

get the lines or time right now so

16:47

you're Heat versus the Hawks right? You know

16:49

over under hundred and ninety and have points

16:51

or something? Be more than that. but two

16:53

hundred twelve and a half of that and

16:55

that I think is then one of them

16:58

More interesting elements here is that as we've

17:00

come out of the zero interest rate era

17:02

is that the ad for podcast have shifted

17:04

right? so it used to be that you

17:06

yeah become if they were going to disrupt

17:08

the underwear. Industry right and Investors rebel.

17:11

Screw. We have free money so

17:13

we will invest in the underwear

17:15

company. That money is gone now.

17:17

And like you know, when I

17:19

listen to Bill Simmons or whatever

17:21

you know I'm not hearing about

17:24

disruptions to food, service or disruptions

17:26

to clothing or disruptions term analog

17:28

radios. I know Now I'm what

17:30

I'm hearing. Is. Two things

17:32

One is a return to this could have

17:34

more ordinary advertisements like. Listening.

17:36

To. Simmons Ray. He's advertising

17:39

Shell gas and like cars or

17:41

something. But the one exception here as

17:43

sports gambling, right? That's the sort

17:45

of one pack. Company. That

17:47

is doing. And because you know they know

17:49

that if they can get people on board,

17:52

your kind of stuck there for a really

17:54

long time. I wanted to ask you about

17:56

how the introduction of sports betting changes the

17:58

way that the game is present, the and

18:00

I hadn't even considered the aspect of you

18:03

know, the media industry itself has been in

18:05

a lot of trouble. The advertising has been

18:07

declining and so you need these new revenue

18:09

sources to bring it in. And so the

18:12

introduction of sports betting them provide this whole

18:14

new revenue stream. not just for the leagues

18:16

and not just for the state and local

18:18

governments and people like that who are taking

18:20

advantage of it, but also the media who

18:23

is presenting it to a lot of people

18:25

who are watching online or in a watching

18:27

on Tv or even on streaming and being

18:29

presented. To them that way. How does

18:31

that change the way that fans relate

18:34

to sports? And when you go to

18:36

watch a game, whether it's in the

18:38

stadium or whether it's just you know,

18:40

sitting in my suit on your Tv

18:42

like how does it change the experience

18:44

of. That. Game and the enjoyment out

18:46

of it. Like is it more annoying because of

18:49

the sports betting? Is there or does it feel

18:51

like? Oh, I have this new opportunity to engage

18:53

with it because now they're all these new stats

18:55

that are being presented to me. I could maybe

18:57

make some money. Like what's the shift? Their. Yeah,

19:00

when it gets profound, right? because you just

19:03

hear about it all the time with i

19:05

go to the next with some frequency here.

19:08

I watch sports a lot out to and

19:10

like it is overhearing people talking about. Betting.

19:13

All time or profits that they've. They've.

19:15

Made and I think. One. One point I

19:17

overlooked earlier as other aspect of it as

19:19

well as that the league's have been obsessed

19:21

to with essentially another kind of cliff. which

19:23

is just that Jen the are sort of

19:26

younger people have been are much less inclined

19:28

to like watchful games right that? So the

19:30

in there that all these kind of crazy

19:32

proposals particularly in in Soccer for how to

19:34

deal with it that I think that Chairman

19:37

of Real Madrid was talk about we need

19:39

to make soccer more like fortnight or something

19:41

and the hell does that mean But. Yeah.

19:43

I think it's particularly is forcing saw this

19:45

as a way to it. They serve, keep

19:48

young men on board and I think it's

19:50

works that and least some extent. But.

19:53

Yeah, you're constantly hearing about profits, right? People

19:55

are constantly to talk about this, and I

19:57

think. The. Thing that I

19:59

have no the which. Has

20:01

affected my ability to enjoy. It is like

20:03

there's a real brittleness. Oh yes, it can

20:06

have crept in like. People. Are just

20:08

pissed off all the time. Profits are hard,

20:10

like they're really difficult to the I mean

20:12

I'd just explain a prop. It is essentially

20:14

a series of that's right. So when you

20:17

think about betting, you think about on going

20:19

to bet on a team to win right

20:21

up with ten dollars on the New York

20:23

Rangers that be good, the Buffalo Sabres, and

20:25

again, that actually tends to be a better

20:27

bet for sports books and to make less

20:30

money on it prop as you can theoretically

20:32

make more money, but they're harder to hit

20:34

and sell. The company's really aggressively push profits

20:36

because that's where most. Of their money comes

20:38

from and that is essentially you're. Making.

20:41

A series of said so they all have

20:43

to hit for you to win so ordinarily

20:45

would be A from T is my Raiders

20:47

and Saber thing. Let's see the Rangers. You know

20:49

the Rangers have a one and a half to

20:52

one chance to me or two to one chance

20:54

to make it simpler to when I put down

20:56

twenty bucks right then they when we get whatever

20:58

but with a prop at it will be a

21:01

series of things. You might be that the Rangers

21:03

when and that he some guy scores a goal

21:05

and some guy gets in a fight or

21:07

gets a foul or something and then when

21:09

you do that like give all three. Of those

21:11

things hit technically the odds are. Better.

21:13

Right? you've suddenly take. I bet that was

21:16

two to one and it's now eighteen to

21:18

one right? So you're twenty dollars becomes three

21:20

hundred fifty basically. But like that never works

21:22

and like people are just talking about this

21:25

all the time and then the other aspect

21:27

of it as well as people are like

21:29

yelling at the play cod mean like they

21:31

want to use the example out of us

21:34

can score a goal or somebody that to

21:36

do something and like they're furious with happen

21:38

I think the especially because of the amount

21:40

of alcohol in particular it's and Boston sports

21:43

watching. I think you see this kind of extension.

21:45

Then there's been a real. Interesting. I

21:47

think rise right now and B C

21:49

with social media to. I think that

21:51

the players themselves paid at right because

21:53

people are yelling at them but they're

21:55

betsy open twitter or whatever and people

21:57

yelling about their beds. And.

22:00

I think social media was already bad, right?

22:02

because it turns everyone into a heckler and

22:04

a toll. But it's become significantly worse. And

22:07

again, because people are like you cost me

22:09

two hundred dollars or whatever. I was reading

22:11

in the Wall Street Journal. that's the point

22:14

guard for the Indiana Pacers Tories Halliburton.

22:16

so that he was talking to a sports

22:18

psychologist because of the negativity on social media

22:20

because so many people were placing prop bets

22:22

on him and of course then losing

22:24

money and then you know, getting really angry.

22:27

The head coach of the Cleveland Cavaliers said

22:29

that he was getting. Texts from people

22:31

because again you know they were losing money

22:33

and they were angry of nearly. This is

22:35

a big problem in college football and stuff

22:37

like that as well. Yea it's a realist

22:39

shift to I guess the way that people

22:42

engage with the game because now you're not

22:44

just going to watch it or not sitting

22:46

on your couch to watch it is a

22:48

joy of but now it's a way that

22:50

you're making money or more often I guess

22:52

losing money you know a much more common

22:54

than in the past again cause you're saying

22:56

you could often bed anyway in but it

22:58

would have been more difficult. A prop

23:00

ending in particular is that something that is like

23:03

made more common in and easier to do because

23:05

it's all on apps instead of. You.

23:07

Know some other more traditional way of betting

23:09

on the games. It's. A couple things.

23:11

Getting one is just that you can always

23:13

place prop that yeah like I would go

23:15

to vegas and place profits and stuff before

23:17

right? And because they are fun but they're

23:19

reason whether so common as at tennis so

23:21

I think one is. It's a sort of

23:24

water system right so it's not as big

23:26

of an accomplice were young as much money.

23:28

If you just you know that the money

23:30

liner you to stand on one team to

23:32

win it creates. I think you know a

23:34

sense that there is extraordinary amount of money

23:36

to be made somehow or somewhere and. But.

23:38

Again, the big reason is just that they're

23:40

really hard to hit and most as honey

23:42

lose right? and you might lose. I.

23:44

One rebound or one steal.

23:46

Our. In. Our fowler a

23:49

couple free throws and. Ah,

23:51

And that it makes people carry has been

23:53

the reason why they're being pushed. His just

23:55

because that's where they make their money, right?

23:57

So yeah, who does betting the line. They

24:00

go to the money line or something. You know you're not

24:02

going to make a ton of money, but. The.

24:04

You have like a thirty percent chance

24:06

of essentially winning and to get that

24:08

number is down to ten or or

24:10

lower with proper. And you know when

24:12

you multiply this five, several million deaths,

24:14

or remove your college several tens of

24:16

billions of dollars, that is a Ton

24:18

of money. So. The sports

24:20

book themselves. Really? Really really

24:23

push profits and that was a thing as well.

24:25

Like the other a lot of flight sports bar

24:27

guess I listen to for a while and they

24:29

would do a proper of the and uranium like

24:31

beer the be sponsored by casino of it that

24:33

out be part of it as well and I

24:36

think good to go back to the earlier conversation.

24:38

Sports always make people mad right? like I am

24:40

mad about force All time mean I've I'm sure

24:42

I've cracked phone from the Buffalo Bills losing in

24:44

the playoffs even though I knew they're going to

24:47

lose. But I think what you've seen I think

24:49

in in this gets to part of the other

24:51

problem as. Well, as like, at least theoretically,

24:53

they also exist as a way to

24:55

form some kind of social bond with

24:57

other people And you're sharing the same

24:59

experience, right? And that expresses theoretically like

25:01

I want the next went right. On.

25:03

Liverpool Football Club when and proper to think

25:06

that a road that answer solidarity right like

25:08

an essence of communal enjoyment, right? Because you

25:10

have this kind of individual financial relationship with

25:12

the game or as before and from Elmira

25:14

New York So like the Bills like the

25:16

next right? You know I'm Irish and depressed

25:19

so I like Liverpool and in this instance

25:21

what you're seeing is a degradation of that

25:23

and then good. That's where things that really

25:25

hits me is like a kind of creates

25:27

this Adam as Asian of sports fandom itself

25:29

were all the sudden you're not just invested

25:32

in the next, winning the next. Have. To

25:34

win and Josh Hard hasta hit more

25:36

than three and a half three pointers

25:38

and get to steals and that sucks

25:40

like it's stupid and again like it

25:42

creates. The. Other issue as well which

25:44

is I think one reason that I like sports

25:46

do is like you know I'd look at this

25:48

thing all the time right? like and it is

25:50

one of the few things that I can just

25:53

engage with like. On a kind of

25:55

psychic level and like at yeah every now and then

25:57

I'll tweet something stupid during a buffer the most or

25:59

it like i wanna watch my when hang of my

26:01

friends that want to. Experience a kind

26:03

of social bolland and you see that. Cracking.

26:06

I think with with the rise

26:08

of bedding and again to also

26:10

with the larger infection of sports

26:12

gambling here to where it's like

26:14

you're never just experiencing the game

26:16

anymore right? you're also being reminded

26:18

of what's the line, he only

26:20

me and then. And. How can

26:23

you make money on air? Them in our

26:25

the Mets get a get more than six

26:27

an app and dad. Sucks.

26:29

Yeah, absolutely. Does he know he even as

26:31

someone who like is not and when you

26:34

really want to sorts for the here you

26:36

describe it like an Ip super disappointed if

26:38

you know there was something and I really

26:40

loved and I was seeing. this kind of

26:42

change happened to it right? were kind of.

26:45

This communal aspect is kind of aspect of

26:47

you're enjoying it with other people was being

26:49

eroded most people wanna make more money off

26:51

of. basically I feel like hearing what you're

26:53

saying to it sounds like the proper. It's

26:55

also take advantage of people's love of the

26:58

game and people's feeling. Of the expertise right? Because

27:00

they're watching it so much they're paying attention to the

27:02

point or like I know this person can do this

27:04

so I'm going to put some money on it and

27:06

then you know it doesn't happen and they feel like

27:09

that person is like betrayed them personally or something. Yeah,

27:11

owing. There's another thing to which is like

27:13

part of it as well which can kind.

27:15

There's a thermo element as well right? Or

27:17

like at there's an infection of have like

27:19

hustle culture right? That's like you should be

27:21

making money while you're watching this game and

27:23

if you're not betting like you're not doing

27:25

it right and that's like the way that

27:27

it gets pushed. I knew all the time

27:29

and that's like one of the things that

27:31

really makes me recoil is arriving at it

27:33

like exploits the kind of you know whenever

27:35

you want to call it the crisis and

27:37

masculine had to hear something. and people's economic

27:39

precarious. this as well. Where. You're just

27:42

like. Yes it's giving

27:44

you a sense that this thing that. Again

27:46

with like new think about the Weather the

27:48

scene started for the most part with their

27:51

sources of local and regional identity and bride.

27:53

And that's not really true. And like

27:55

is that era of mass culture anymore?

27:58

But. It still exists to some

28:00

that and I think there's been a

28:02

real erosion and that to and it's

28:04

like the games themselves are seen as

28:06

just another way for you to make

28:08

money, to rise and grind and like

28:10

you're getting ripped off and he do

28:12

it to. Be. Accurate to pivot

28:14

away from talking about the fans and kind

28:17

of their experience of is to talk about

28:19

the players itself because I feel like one

28:21

of the things I picked up from The

28:23

Beast that you wrote was that there's a

28:25

growing number of scandals around the players engagement

28:27

with sports betting and what it's doing to

28:29

that side of things. The I was reading

28:31

in the The Wall Street Journal that the

28:33

Nfl had to suspend him players for betting

28:35

last year and the and Be A has

28:38

had a growing number of complaints from players

28:40

and and head coaches about the influence of

28:42

bedding and it seems in particular this scandal

28:44

around. Los Angeles Dodgers show Hail Tony

28:46

has really blown up recently. Can you tell us

28:48

what that has been all about and where it

28:50

says about the influence of betting when it comes

28:53

to the players as well? Yeah,

28:55

so I mean I think you see

28:57

in Canada ever Rest of the a

28:59

tiny scandals? a goofy one's own. He's

29:01

a Japanese player. He doesn't speak English.

29:03

He just signed this like massive seven

29:05

hundred million dollar contracts with the Los

29:07

Angeles Dodgers is an amazing player. He's

29:10

the best player in baseball and is

29:12

that sorta like this baseball savior kind

29:14

of. He. Pitches he hits, he does

29:16

both things extraordinarily well, but he is also

29:18

this kind of weird safer, like no one

29:20

knows anything about and like people didn't know

29:22

what his dog's name was. For. A long

29:24

time it was revealed like when he's out of the

29:27

Dodgers he got married and he was just like hey

29:29

I'm married now and everyone's like ruled the who. Is

29:32

a satellite forty eight hours later and beat

29:34

I part of the justify the guy but

29:36

also you know he is essentially everything a

29:38

device media the to this translators else is

29:40

best friend. And then

29:42

are basically I haven't very quickly

29:45

as it but eve weekday evening.

29:47

and they the dodgers fired the translator

29:49

and and nobody knew why and then

29:52

quickly there's just it became clear that

29:54

a tiny his account had sent for

29:56

a a million dollars to a guy

29:58

who's running an illegal sports book in

30:00

Anaheim or somewhere in Southern California. And,

30:03

you know, the question was immediately like,

30:05

well, is Otani betting on baseball, right?

30:07

There's famously the Pete Rose scandal in

30:09

the 1970s, 1980s,

30:12

that, you know, ultimately led to Pete Rose,

30:14

who was most, I think the most hits

30:17

of any player ever being banned from baseball

30:19

and from entering the Hall of Fame. Going

30:21

back even further, there was a scandal in

30:24

1919, which ended, I think, resulted in eight

30:26

players who were banned forever for throwing the

30:28

World Series because of the mafia involvement.

30:30

There's a Good John Sales movie, Eight Men

30:32

Out, I think about that. You know, so

30:35

there was this concern. It does seem like

30:37

what happened was actually that the translator was

30:39

a gambling addict and did steal this money

30:41

from Otani. He's facing federal charges now for

30:44

doing that. But I think that raised the

30:46

sale answer to this issue. You know, there

30:48

in basketball, you had another situation where it's

30:50

got John T. Porter, who plays for the

30:52

Toronto Raptors. He's a scrub end of the

30:55

bench player, but, you know, it seems like

30:57

what was happening was that he was in

30:59

this kind of Discord chat or WhatsApp group,

31:01

I think Discord chat, with a

31:03

bunch of guys. And they would say, look, you

31:05

know, play a little bit and then call out

31:07

sick. And they would place these kind of prop

31:09

bets on him getting less than four rebounds, less

31:11

than one three pointer, right? And this was flagged

31:14

by, I think, FanDuel, maybe DraftKings,

31:16

maybe both, because they were like, oh,

31:18

we're seeing the biggest payout that they did

31:20

for these two games that he allegedly

31:22

did this were on prop bets

31:24

made on this guy who plays, you know,

31:26

six minutes a game for the Raptors and

31:28

who stinks. His brother's a freak too, but

31:30

that's a whole other subject. But his

31:33

brother's good. And, you know, you've also seen this

31:35

in European soccer. So in Europe, Europe is interesting

31:37

because they've had legal sports spending for much longer.

31:39

And you can really see if, you know, if

31:41

you go to a place like Blackpool in England

31:44

or something, you see societal rot

31:46

in which sports gambling is playing a major

31:48

role. Like I've been wandering around there and

31:50

you just see kind of dead eyed people.

31:52

But there, there's a player Ivan Tony who

31:54

plays for Brentford, who was suspended for most

31:56

of his Spending, I think,

31:58

for eight months. When he was

32:00

in a lower league, he had placed hundreds

32:03

of that. there's a big scandal in Italy.

32:05

Essentially was three of their best young players

32:07

who I think it all play together. Also.

32:09

Had place hundred to baths one of

32:11

them play the event this that you

32:13

know if we had lost like over

32:15

a million dollars. finale has been banned

32:18

that for. Over a year is going

32:20

to miss European championships the summer and it was

32:22

a lot. Recently released alleged recently that he had

32:24

continued to bet on sports even after he had

32:26

been suspended and their couple things. Yeah right, I

32:28

think there's a needle to threaten. I think when

32:30

you talk to people who are. Defensive.

32:33

The the gambling industry where they will save

32:35

for the most part of the go will

32:37

these companies like Flag respects right beside the

32:39

border and like the tenacity bats they were

32:41

made via illegal like apps and use it

32:44

will those are illegal sat through the players

32:46

on supposed to bet on themselves anyway so

32:48

but it in gear. Seeing two things one

32:50

is a question, the integrity of sports themselves

32:52

and I get I think it's pretty likely

32:54

the Jaunty Porter will get a lifetime ban

32:57

just to be made. An example of. Denali.

32:59

Again is going to miss out on two

33:01

years of what is essentially as Prime are

33:04

close to i was young that is very

33:06

very good midfielder and years because forces are

33:08

in to protect the integrity of the game.

33:10

But I think. What? People overlook here

33:12

is that the target demographic for sports gambling

33:15

is essentially men in their twenties. Rape and

33:17

like the athletes are men in their twenties

33:19

for the most part it out and they

33:21

are gonna get caught up in the same

33:23

types of societal. Roth at other people are

33:25

you know, like solder to all? He is

33:27

probably a gambling addict or live in Tony

33:29

probably as a gambling. Problem. To

33:32

move it into an even bigger picture. That thing

33:34

is interesting, but I've been tony. The. He

33:36

Place or Bradford Se Brentford is

33:38

owned by a professional gambler. They

33:40

are sponsored by a gambling company.

33:43

And. You create this weird world

33:45

in which the players rightfully are banned

33:47

from betting because it screws up with

33:49

the question of you know is this

33:52

real right on the players trying to

33:54

win but everywhere they look right like

33:56

I've been tony when he came back

33:58

from been then it for gambling would

34:00

look down on his shirt and it's

34:02

has Hollywood bets right? Like. And.

34:05

You're being just reminded all the time

34:07

is bombarded. Read that the side to

34:09

the stadium are Paddy Power as but

34:11

usually that surely getting some parts of

34:13

Europe to and a William Hill or

34:15

whenever they have their and then good.

34:17

That's the sort of like larger hypocrisy

34:19

question here. Obviously the integrity problem is

34:21

a big one and I think it's

34:23

one that the leaves are trying to

34:25

solve by. Dishing. Out the

34:27

a pretty severe punishments the players to

34:29

try to make examples of them. But

34:31

like gambling is an addiction Randall hate.

34:34

With the exception of the Porter scandal

34:36

which is pretty minor, there hasn't been

34:38

anything major that I've seen that suggests

34:40

that there's anything that's really screwed up

34:42

like in the way that the Ninety

34:45

Ninety World Series was literally thrown by

34:47

the mafia. But you see it in

34:49

all these other little ways, right? And

34:51

and again, it's being done just for

34:53

stupid reasons. So people make money or

34:55

even just. A bad feeling, absence of

34:58

control and I don't really know. What?

35:00

They can do about it. I mean, I think

35:02

to some extent there's gotta be. A

35:05

huge rise of just enforcement and I am sure

35:07

that the teams are going to be monitoring what

35:09

their players are doing as well. To.

35:11

An extent. But like. At

35:14

the end of the day, these are guys in

35:16

their twenties. Like guys in their twenties. Damn bowl.

35:18

And they gamble because every worker told the gamble

35:20

yeah, it's become a societal norm. They wanna. Be.

35:22

A part of the things you know I'd

35:24

be happy for my family that have gambling

35:27

problems or of had gambling problems and again

35:29

I think you know how you control. that

35:31

is Interesting question by yeah I think they're

35:33

what we're seeing in I don't know how

35:36

it stops essentially is like you're seeing it.

35:38

a slow just increase in minor I was

35:40

anger still relatively minor. Scale Them in Ivan

35:43

Tony's hundred life is may have that hundreds

35:45

of times. but like Tony never bet on

35:47

a game he was playing in Denali. There

35:49

have been some allegations that he may have

35:52

picked up. A. Stupid. Yellow card

35:54

here and there for gambling reasons, but it's

35:56

not something that affects the outcome for the

35:58

what you're seeing is. You. Introduce poison

36:00

into the the to the water right?

36:03

Everyone drink the water and that could

36:05

include players who are about. To. Be.

36:07

As ah yes, the bigger. Issue. Or

36:09

the bigger concern is less them using like

36:11

you know, insider knowledge from the sport to

36:13

make their own bad but rather starting to

36:16

change how they play because they have relationships

36:18

with people who can place bets and are

36:20

going to make money off of that because

36:22

of it I guess. Yeah yeah, I think

36:25

that's probably the larger concern at this. Whenever

36:27

they do have they have very protected inside

36:29

information to proprietary right? like. Is

36:32

a guy who got arrested for stealing information

36:34

with is like gambling related by the oh

36:36

we're for the Timber wolves right? It.

36:38

Then you see things like leak out with like

36:40

line up and other things like that that can

36:42

affect gambling right? Or if you're not a guide

36:45

to play fantasy premier league or something like I

36:47

was, get mad cuz. Some guys know

36:49

who's playing and he's not. you know beforehand

36:51

and I don't know that and a that

36:53

as a matter is it's free and doesn't

36:55

really affect anything. It's one hundred percent possible

36:58

that you will see some sort of major

37:00

events. That. Is skewed, you know,

37:02

in favor of gambling interest at

37:04

some point. But I think what

37:06

you're more likely to see his

37:09

dislike a Thousand Cuts scenario in

37:11

which. You. Every now and then

37:13

that's a jaunty porters of the world. But

37:15

I think apply more concerning right is they

37:17

may just want to be cool, they might

37:20

want a. Popular. Deputies bathing, selling

37:22

but also like teenager they porter than a

37:24

couple a ten day contract for the. Raptors.

37:27

His brother's got one hundred million dollars or

37:29

whatever, but he's taken in more than me.

37:31

But the not a lot of adding that.

37:33

Yeah, with an opportunity for them term to

37:35

cash out to and I think that and

37:37

bureau with either. I'm

37:40

a foreigner sense you when you were talking about

37:42

the broader impacts and you know what the players

37:44

were doing and how they're still in their twenties

37:46

as well. and they have the same. Pressures.

37:49

And and wants to do. You know,

37:51

do this Gambling Like anyone else. I

37:53

think that gets us into the bigger

37:55

question that your piece was really getting

37:57

to. You know when you called the

37:59

sports betting. Sports Gambling. to be very

38:01

clear about what it was and the

38:03

broader impacts of having these gambling ads

38:05

everywhere. Every time you see sports, you

38:07

see these encouragements to place a better

38:09

place. a bunch of bats from. we're

38:11

talking their profits on different things that

38:13

are happening in the sport and how

38:15

that pushes this greater prevalence of gambling

38:17

within society. and of course this addiction

38:19

to gambling. Because then you lose the

38:21

money and then you wanna try to

38:23

make it back and you're You're constantly

38:26

making more more bets. So.was a bit

38:28

about that aspect of this. how by

38:30

legalizing. Sports Betting. You now have a lot

38:32

more people who are engaging in this gambling,

38:34

getting addicted to it, and the crisis that

38:36

that causes in their lives. Defenders is normalized

38:39

as well as like anything like binge drinking

38:41

is. I did reasonable comp here to read

38:43

and that it's like you look at the

38:45

way that. Budweiser.

38:48

Is marketed or something. It's like Django their friends

38:50

internal but a beer with every day when I

38:52

know their friends and during a bunch of beer

38:54

gambling as a similarly. Palace. Insidious.

38:56

Like soft marketing set to right. It's just look

38:58

at it. was hang out the bar with your

39:00

boys and. Bet. On college football

39:02

or whatever and for you see and really

39:05

quickly is just a huge explosion in addiction

39:07

which is not surprising at all because it's

39:09

so easy right? like a used to be

39:11

you and started doing something right like you

39:14

would have to get money. you'd have to

39:16

call somebody, you have to give them money

39:18

to somebody else if you know you. So

39:20

you that again your car. The.

39:23

Rest of my friction in the process of

39:25

place in the bed? Yeah, exactly. And I

39:27

think now you have a situation was there

39:29

is no friction. At all. and

39:31

that's I think this huge huge problem

39:33

so it's still pretty early, but they're

39:36

states I think particular in the northeast

39:38

and really good at setting this a.

39:40

New Jersey was the first data legal

39:42

I sports betting and they've censored seen

39:44

a steady climb. In. Cause

39:46

The Gambling Addiction Hotlines. Over the

39:48

last five years with Connecticut Dave

39:50

Legalize Gambling and Twenty Twenty One,

39:52

they saw ninety one percent increase

39:54

in costs. Gambling Addiction Hotlines. There.

39:56

Was a paper that came out that those

39:59

really interesting late. Last month or the

40:01

going April first actually from the University of

40:03

New Mexico that it's as if I'm extremely

40:05

high rates of correlation between been shrinking and

40:07

sports gambling. It's not surprising but I think

40:10

again to it's it's one thing is overlooked

40:12

years of that's also the way that has

40:14

had sold as well right that this the

40:16

thing you go out and do go the

40:18

barn place bets and again I think like

40:21

you to seeing. Yeah, you

40:23

look at the credit crunch right now.

40:25

you know there's an inflation problem more

40:27

than anything else. But I think that

40:29

it's also true that people are looking

40:32

for magic ways to get more money

40:34

and sports gambling in a really, really,

40:36

really aggressively. Markets. Itself as a

40:38

kind of way out as having conversation with

40:40

somebody over the weekend. Like the way it

40:43

works as you lose money. And

40:45

then you're like, well, the wedding at this Money

40:47

Back and that is is bliss. Another bad right?

40:49

And. You just get trapped in that cycle really

40:51

quickly. And like the best hit some thought you know some

40:54

of the that's. Work Very good you

40:56

either usually when they keep coming

40:58

back. yeah yeah but like overall

41:00

you you lose right? or am

41:03

I think that. The. Way

41:05

you know it works with your brain.

41:07

This is a kind of similar thing

41:09

that gives you a sense of yeah,

41:11

control over these this peasant Vance and

41:13

you feel like okay, something bad happens.

41:15

I can make them a good happened

41:17

just by you know, pick him I

41:19

phone and cooking. couple buttons and it's

41:21

that type of. Sort. Of Dishes

41:23

cycle that I think is ensnaring lot of

41:25

people and. And. Again, like they

41:28

don't resort is extremely aggressive in the

41:30

way that they deserve onboard people need.

41:32

I think there's gonna be a point

41:34

to gets you know the situation was.

41:36

there will be exponential growth forever in

41:39

terms of sports gambling, but. Where.

41:41

There's a huge amount of the market

41:44

taps this year, and like the apps

41:46

themselves, claim that they're good at flagging

41:48

problem betters. But. Like you know

41:51

at the point the your flagging a problem. Better

41:53

to it's the know maybe to wait for somebody

41:55

as well and again. Some of

41:57

them except credit cards which is insane to

41:59

me. And it's just a

42:01

completely screwed up system in

42:04

which you can ruin

42:06

your life with a couple of

42:09

stupid bets. Yeah. And

42:12

I've read as well, you were talking earlier about how

42:15

a lot of these apps, I don't

42:17

know if they still do it, but would basically

42:19

say you can kind of have free money to

42:21

start getting into it. And then

42:23

once you do sign up for the app,

42:25

once you're into it, especially when you're watching

42:27

one of the games, you're constantly getting these

42:29

notifications to like place additional bets on things

42:31

that are happening as you're watching. So

42:34

like, you know, we know with Facebook and the

42:36

social media platforms in the way that many

42:39

of these apps have been designed over

42:41

a long period of time to use

42:43

these push notifications to get you

42:45

to come back and even learn

42:47

from gambling techniques in order to

42:50

design their systems. It's no surprise then

42:52

to see gambling apps that are designed

42:54

to get you to bet on these

42:56

games. And I'm sure things beyond

42:58

that as well to use these same tactics to

43:01

get you to come back to get you engaged

43:03

in the system to make sure that they're keeping

43:05

you engaged in spending money essentially. I

43:07

like sports radio too, but it plays on a kind of

43:09

similar impulse, right? Which is that people want to feel like

43:12

they understand what's happening. They have some sort of mastery over

43:15

these systems and the games themselves. And I

43:17

think that that's the other way that prop

43:19

bets work too, is that it's like all

43:21

a cart, right? Like you're kind of not

43:23

just doing the same thing that everybody else

43:26

is, right? When one works, you have this

43:28

special, it's because you have special knowledge of,

43:30

I keep using Josh Hart as an

43:32

example, but whatever, New York

43:34

Knicks, swing man, Josh Hart. And

43:36

I think that that's part of it as well, right?

43:39

Is that what it's selling to you is the sense

43:41

that you understand what's happening right now.

43:44

And like you don't, like the casinos know, like they're

43:46

really good. The handful of

43:48

times I've done prop bets on tracking

43:50

fandule, like you're just like, oh yeah,

43:52

they're usually, they're not far off, right?

43:54

Like when they say four

43:56

and a half rebounds, they mean four and a half rebounds,

43:58

right? Like you know, you're You're probably going to miss the

44:01

prop that by one or two. And

44:03

that I think is the other element of this, right? Is that,

44:06

you know, you may hit two of the three in a

44:09

prop that right, but like, you're going to miss

44:11

by just a hair. And that near miss feeling

44:13

is actually like the thing that makes you kind

44:15

of hook because you're like, I was this close,

44:17

but I can get it next time because like,

44:19

I got it, right? Like I figured out the

44:22

points assist rebounds, but you're always going to be

44:24

this close because they have large computers that are

44:26

running huge numbers of simulations to figure these things

44:28

out, I assume. But however they're

44:30

doing it, like they're usually very good. You're not going

44:33

to beat the casino. Like that's the

44:35

whole thing. Only Donald Trump can lose money

44:37

running a casino. And

44:40

I think that that's a big part

44:42

of it, right? It's just that, and

44:44

again, like it's almost impossible to watch

44:46

anything without there being some reminder, right?

44:48

Like the American soccer coverage is a

44:50

little bit less than most, but even

44:52

there, it'll just be like the

44:54

odds, you know, the odds for Liverpool, Arsenal, Manchester

44:56

City to win the title right now, you know?

44:59

And you're just kind of like, they're all one point away

45:01

from each other, right? Like of course the book, you think

45:04

Manchester City is going to win because they want it for

45:06

the last five years, right? So it

45:08

doesn't really tell you anything like that's the other, that's the

45:10

thing that makes me crazy about it. So I'm just like,

45:12

I'm not learning anything useful here.

45:14

What I'm being told is just like, what have

45:17

you bet on this right now? You know what

45:19

I mean? Liverpool's plus 450, right? Definitely.

45:21

You know, when you think about the broader

45:23

impacts of it, as you were describing with

45:25

so many more people calling into these gambling

45:27

hotlines and just, you know, the fact that

45:30

the economy itself is not in the greatest

45:32

place right now. A lot of people are

45:34

struggling in the sense that, you

45:36

know, because we're in this inflation crisis, because the

45:38

cost of everything has gone up so much because

45:40

people's mortgages have gone up so much. There

45:43

is this just kind of like general

45:45

stress that companies like this can take

45:47

advantage of in saying, hey, you need

45:49

a bit more money, try placing one

45:52

of these bets. And then, of

45:54

course, naturally, when they lose many of those

45:56

bets and lose a lot of money, you

45:58

end up in this spiral. in

46:00

your piece, you talk about the connection

46:02

between gambling addiction and then, you know,

46:04

substance abuse and alcohol abuse and binge

46:06

drinking and things like that. And it's

46:08

completely understandable how that happens, right? Because

46:10

you can already be in this desperate

46:12

situation, then you're even more strapped for

46:14

cash because these bets have failed. And

46:17

then of course, you start drinking more because, you

46:19

know, I'm in this terrible place, right? Yeah,

46:22

I mean, I think like there's another possibility

46:24

too, which is just that if you're predisposed

46:26

to high risk behavior, then being introduced to

46:28

another easy way to do high risk behavior.

46:31

And if you're engaged in something that for

46:33

instance, you know, decreases your sense of inhibition

46:35

or your ability to manage risk or even

46:37

your ability to really look at things in

46:40

the longer term, which is essentially what the

46:42

appeal of alcoholism to some extent, to

46:45

accept that it has an appeal, it's

46:47

sort of all of the above, right?

46:49

But again, the larger situation is like,

46:51

again, I go back and forth on

46:53

it, right? Like in some ways, alcohol is a really good, a

46:57

really good example in that

47:01

it's there, most people can

47:03

just have a glass of wine or whatever, or two

47:05

glasses of wine, you know, so there's three glasses of

47:08

wine and they're fine, but there are other people that

47:10

if you have one glass of wine, then you're going

47:12

to have 15, you know,

47:14

you know, 15 glasses

47:16

of wine, that would be horrible for the

47:18

sugar intake, but, but whatever. And I

47:20

think that, you know, the problem

47:22

here, for me is also

47:24

just like the phone element, right? Like it just

47:27

makes it, you know, again, to there to you,

47:29

at least still have to go out and buy

47:32

a bunch of wine or a bunch of beer or

47:34

whatever you want. And here, it's

47:36

just so easy to get hooked on

47:38

it and to be just trapped there

47:40

once you get there, that I think

47:42

it's really, really dangerous. And there's just

47:44

nothing, there's nothing to be done. So

47:46

yeah, and on that point, you

47:48

know, obviously, We're talking about how a

47:51

lot of state governments, you know, governments kind

47:53

of legalized this over the past number of

47:55

years after the Supreme Court decision, because they

47:58

saw the opportunity of the revenue that came

48:00

with it. And I'm sure are you know

48:02

they were being lobbied by the companies that

48:04

wanted to be legalized so they can you

48:07

know make their money on sports betting? have

48:09

we seen as these potential impacts have been

48:11

growing as states like the eyes you were

48:14

talking about a states have seen cause to

48:16

these gambling addiction hotlines increase significantly since the

48:18

legalization of sports betting. has there been any

48:20

move to try to rain the center or

48:23

at least play some rules around how it

48:25

works. Now I'm just.

48:28

Not a little. He

48:30

are not realising everything like that I think like.

48:33

Anywhere. I mean I i was days or cursory

48:35

search earlier know. I mean I think the problem

48:37

with it is like. In the same since

48:39

we've been talked about the kind of vicious cycle that. leads

48:42

to gambling addiction like. They're.

48:44

The kind of roommates and crafts. Or there's like

48:46

a virtuous cycle that is led to the spread

48:48

of this right. Or a virtuous if you are

48:50

making money off of their right. Which is that.

48:52

Obviously. Betting interest law to send

48:55

a ton of money to make sure that this is. That

48:57

there. Can legalize gambling everywhere. They make

48:59

lot of money and states are strapped

49:02

for money and you can tax. This.

49:04

Heavily, you know you. Maybe you don't

49:06

have to passive. You know? Tax.

49:09

Levy or something to because you're

49:11

putting more revenue from gambling and

49:13

in that was like my New

49:16

Jersey wanted to bits and. Sports.

49:18

Leagues are looking at and very very uncertain

49:21

future. I think that some is than

49:23

kind of under covered recently but they had

49:25

been pitching themselves to owners is essentially a

49:27

font have unlimited growth thera take over the

49:29

world than there is going to be table

49:32

revenue and everything else and like they're seeing

49:34

that dry up to their looking at other

49:36

places to and. And. Gambling provides

49:38

a window there and again. As

49:41

a thing before, I think that

49:43

there's the A. They're also, I

49:45

think extremely anxious about the tic

49:47

toc tenor hasten or whatever. And

49:49

and this is a way that

49:51

you can literally capture people to

49:53

watching sports. And than

49:55

a sports media to which is

49:57

similarly in pretty deep trouble is

49:59

it. Media on the ring else

50:01

and it very quickly reorienting itself

50:04

and pushing gambling stuff. and you

50:06

see their to he'd go to

50:08

the Athletic. That's a great example.

50:10

like she's damaged up all over

50:12

it. Advertisements are gambling. They're just

50:14

tips about gambling games. And.

50:16

Again, like part of that again as you. just

50:18

that's what your readers want and you're providing into

50:20

them. Fighting. For all of those

50:23

entities in all which need money

50:25

or with want money or much

50:27

but like this is Ben a

50:29

real boon. And me or

50:31

is relatively undercover and still and again. if

50:33

you look at thing in places like Europe

50:35

and England and particular, there's a lot of

50:37

really good writing and has been particularly in

50:39

The Guardian, which isn't very good at sports

50:41

gambling. The drills and

50:43

on just a societal impact that the

50:45

Premier league in particular that it's embrace

50:47

of of gambling has has had on

50:50

British society which is mess before anyone

50:52

has been a but they they that

50:54

I think they're either right and and

50:56

I think here as well like it's

50:58

sort of being treated like any other

51:00

kind of you know addiction problem. Which.

51:03

Is that it's just a swept under the rug

51:05

right? Lions like alcoholism or something as well? Yeah,

51:08

you're not going to see a. Prohibition.

51:10

It's crazy that that was ever a

51:12

constitutional amendment like that. Arrows long gone.

51:15

And again I think that like for the

51:18

states, it's free money and a they're not

51:20

thinking about it. You know in terms

51:22

of the larger societal costs as well if

51:24

there is an actual costs to both a

51:26

societal fabric but awesome economic cost to and

51:28

that's not being considered here either. but I

51:30

think again it can be a problem. but

51:32

Joe Biden once young men to vote for

51:34

a right dancer ones him and of from.

51:36

They're not going to be like. Sports.

51:39

Gambling is terrible. But it's

51:41

it's not a winning political issue in

51:43

that way People like sports, gambling. They're.

51:46

Not concerned about the other problems and Park is

51:48

I think you know that some part of larger

51:50

says we're having to Adam is a shit she

51:52

right, gambling addiction, the some you have as other

51:55

people but like the ultimate result here for me

51:57

as a situation in which everything is being degraded

51:59

right? Like. Sporty been degraded, The

52:01

final fabric is being degraded. You're

52:03

constantly just being told to do

52:05

things that costs money that are

52:07

outside of the actual enjoy. With

52:10

the Jeffersonian getting further and further

52:12

away from the south of connection

52:14

them joy in hey you and

52:16

whenever you feel from. Watching.

52:18

Sports and being replaced by i

52:21

sort of synthetic version of that.

52:23

That is really gross. Yeah,

52:25

I think that's an essential point that he

52:27

obviously we're seeing far beyond sports and in

52:29

many other parts of society. Yeah in the

52:31

only thing I was trying to look up

52:33

any kind of initiatives to try to rain

52:35

this in the the only thing that I

52:37

saw was some a college sort league and

52:40

see a kind of trying to push to

52:42

stop player specific best in a few states

52:44

have done that. But but that's about it.

52:46

How is this has been a sobering, not

52:48

particularly positive conversation? You know it hasn't told

52:50

the world is getting better. Anything by I

52:52

think it is good. Understand the impact of

52:54

this. What it's actually doing. I really proceed.

52:56

Taking the time to come on the show. think

52:58

so much there's been talk to a ticket. Alex

53:02

Effort is a senior editor at the New Republic.

53:04

Attack on Save Us has made a partnership with

53:06

the Nation Magazine and as to buy meat production

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