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0:30

Hi, I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News

0:32

and CNN HLN guy and current cable

0:34

news conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian

0:36

who now sits comfortably on the left.

0:39

Hi, I'm Danielle Moody, former

0:41

educator and recovering lobbyist. But

0:43

today, I'm an unapologetic, woke

0:45

commentator on America's threats to

0:47

democracy. And I'm producer Jesse Cannon,

0:49

and I'm here to make sure things don't

0:51

go too far off the rails. We're here

0:54

to have fun, smart conversations with some of

0:56

the most knowledgeable and entertaining people in politics,

0:58

media, and beyond. Our goal is

1:00

to try and make sense of our

1:03

current crazy world, our new abnormal, and

1:05

hopefully even make you laugh through the

1:07

tears. Hello and welcome to another

1:09

Sunday bonus episode of The New Abnormal. We

1:11

thank you so much for being here. Today,

1:14

we have an extra special guest with anthropologist

1:16

and associate professor at Brown University, Eva Jasunet,

1:18

who's here to tell us about her new

1:21

book, Exit Wounds, how America's guns fuel violence

1:23

across the border. But first, let's have some

1:25

fun. Are you guys ready to listen to

1:27

some clips? Clips. So

1:30

on Monday's episode, we discussed Mr.

1:32

Trump's abortion stance, aka him looking

1:34

to try to save his campaign

1:36

after doing what he loves to

1:38

do, and he tried to muddy the waters and

1:40

all that fun stuff that he's constantly, constantly doing.

1:42

Well, as we've discussed many

1:44

times, Mago always has the quiet part

1:47

out loud, and his buddy Newt Gingrich

1:49

is not going to do him any

1:51

favors here as he's on Fox News.

1:53

The right to life leaders understand exactly

1:55

what President Trump's trying to do. He

1:58

is trying to reach largest

2:00

possible number of babies saved. He's

2:02

trying to create the best possible

2:04

environment in the current culture and

2:06

in the current laws. And he's

2:09

doing it in a way which

2:11

is extraordinarily pro-life without alienating people

2:13

with the kind of fear-mongering the

2:15

Democrats have. I thought what he

2:17

did, his statement was exactly right.

2:20

And I think people are reading carefully and

2:22

think about it. We are a country that

2:24

has to have this conversation. I

2:27

personally, as you know, Calissa is

2:29

very deeply committed to

2:31

life. I personally would like

2:33

to have the fewest possible abortions,

2:36

period. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

2:39

He's so committed to

2:41

life. They're so committed

2:43

to life they vote against, I

2:46

don't know, maternal care,

2:48

parental leave, the child

2:50

tax credit, feeding children

2:52

in this country. Miss

2:54

me with the bullshit, please. I

2:57

mean, Newt Gingrich is... Very

3:00

handsome, good-looking. I know, Andy, I know. Sure. That's

3:02

exactly where I was going with this. You've

3:05

learned to know me so well over

3:07

these past 17 years. Yes. And

3:10

it is just incredible. Newt Gingrich is someone

3:12

who, if he hasn't, I

3:14

don't know if he's come out publicly in favor

3:17

of a federal abortion ban, but he absolutely would

3:19

be comfortable with it. And yes,

3:21

he is telling you that he liked

3:23

what Donald Trump said. Sure, that's not

3:25

a surprise. As we discussed, Donald Trump

3:27

can pretend he's not in

3:29

favor of a federal abortion ban

3:32

all he wants, but we all know

3:34

that he would, you know, in office,

3:36

he would totally kowtow to the evangelical

3:39

right, because that really is the group

3:41

that...that's the one group that will

3:44

stick by him without

3:46

fail, and he will do whatever it

3:49

is they want to do. So the

3:51

fact that Newt Gingrich is saying he

3:53

liked what Donald Trump had to say

3:55

is, A, not

3:57

a shock, and B, exposes

3:59

Donald Trump. for exactly what he is on this. You

4:02

know what I think of as the man who's definitely

4:04

trying to save as many babies as possible is the

4:06

guy who said to Howard Stern that he told the

4:08

mother of one of his children to go get it

4:10

taken care of. Wow. Yeah,

4:13

sorry Tiffany, I'm sure that's very... Mmm!

4:16

Mmm! Mmm! The

4:18

Lawrence O'Donnell played it on the show this

4:20

week. Fun stuff, but yes, that's definitely a

4:22

man who's trying to make sure as many

4:24

babies as possible are saved. Yeah, I just

4:26

wanted to find this. Newt Gingrich in 2012

4:29

asked if he would make exceptions to abortion

4:32

for rape and incest and he said, no,

4:34

I wouldn't make exceptions. So not a shock

4:36

that he liked what Donald Trump had to

4:38

say. Yikes. Well,

4:41

on this podcast we continually have to

4:43

point out that one of Trump's top

4:45

campaign advisors is one Charlie Kirk who,

4:47

let's just say, says

4:50

a lot of things that in any other

4:52

time would have you booted so fast from

4:55

any other campaign in the history of this

4:57

country except the Trump campaign. Here

4:59

he is talking to Bishop Aubrey Shines

5:02

and unlike Newt, the mask isn't going to

5:04

slip. The hood's going to slip. Let's look

5:06

at it historically. When

5:08

Japanese Americans were

5:11

singled out, there was some

5:14

sort of correction publicly

5:17

that had been made. I

5:20

have Jewish ancestry. When

5:22

they were singled out, there

5:24

was some form of reparation that was

5:26

made. Now, I want to make this

5:29

just abundantly clear. I

5:31

don't believe that anyone

5:34

should receive anything that they didn't earn.

5:37

I believe it's unchristian. That

5:40

would be like you committing a

5:42

crime against me. I don't skitch

5:44

for it, but five

5:46

generations later, someone comes and

5:49

says to your great,

5:51

great grandkids, you owe me. Well,

5:53

that's absurd. It's moral. It's

5:55

not biblical. That's right. Think

5:58

about this. How do

6:00

I charge you for something a

6:03

hundred years later that you didn't do? And

6:05

if we want to go further on the

6:07

whole reparation thing, not you and I, but

6:09

I'm just saying publicly speaking, shouldn't

6:11

in, if we're honest,

6:14

intellectually honest, then why

6:16

don't blacks charge

6:18

kings to this day in Africa

6:21

who sold them? See

6:23

there's this Miss Nomer, a bunch of

6:25

white guys, I don't know, out of Mississippi, Arkansas

6:27

got on their little paddle boats, went across to

6:29

Atlantic and got over into Africa and rounded up

6:31

25 million black people.

6:34

That's stupid. It's not even

6:36

history. It was

6:38

black kings selling

6:40

other blacks that they had conquered.

6:43

They were selling them for everything from

6:45

tobacco and a whole lot of other

6:47

things, alcohol, beverages, various products

6:49

they would sell and they would merchandise

6:51

them. So if blacks are really interested

6:53

in reparation, then go to Africa.

6:56

I know I'm going to take a lot of feedback, but

6:58

if we're going to be intellectually honest, I say that once

7:00

I got so criticized. Well, I say it all the time.

7:04

I just want to start with the idea

7:06

that where he said that it's unbiblical. I

7:09

kind of feel like that would

7:11

come to a shock to people

7:13

who believe in original sin. And

7:17

also I believe the phrase, the sins of the

7:19

father is from the Old Testament

7:22

and refers to people inheriting the

7:24

judgment of the sins of their

7:26

ancestors. So it's not unbiblical.

7:28

It's actually very biblical. So

7:31

in addition to all the other garbage

7:33

that was spewed there, I just, for

7:35

some reason, I felt like I should

7:37

point. I don't want people who do

7:40

not showcase any type of

7:42

intellect to use the phrase

7:45

intellectual dishonesty. Can

7:48

we just start there?

7:51

And, you know, I believe

7:54

that Jesse chose this as

7:57

an attack on my piece.

8:00

and well being.

8:02

And it's like, hey Danielle, the

8:04

weekend is coming. Let me disrupt

8:06

your fucking piece by making you

8:08

listen to these two fucking racists.

8:10

I just want to say in my defense

8:13

very fast, I regularly pull some of the

8:15

worst stuff to just not do that. This

8:17

is just sadly the mid-level of the barrel.

8:19

And that is what is sick,

8:22

that this is mid-level. Like, this

8:24

is okay gutter shit. The fact

8:26

is that these type

8:28

of white Christian

8:31

nationalist men do

8:33

not want to take responsibility

8:35

for anything. That is their

8:37

MO. They are the grievance

8:39

kings. Everything has happened to

8:42

them. They have

8:44

done nothing except be

8:46

good, God-faring white Christian

8:48

men. And woe is

8:50

them that the world around

8:53

them has changed. Woe is

8:55

them that their ancestors kept

8:57

my ancestors in bondage for

8:59

400 years and then perpetuated

9:01

policies for the entirety of

9:03

America's existence that would subjugate

9:06

a population of people who

9:08

less than second-class citizens. Right?

9:11

These are the same people that

9:13

when George Floyd was murdered were

9:15

putting up videos mocking his death

9:18

and saying that he deserved it.

9:20

Give me a fucking break

9:22

on your intellectual dishonesty. There

9:24

is nothing intellectual about what

9:26

they offer, but everything that

9:28

they do say is fucking

9:30

dishonest and reprehensible. I'm

9:33

done. To your point, it

9:35

was just announced that he's now partnering

9:37

with Candace Owens for a lecture who

9:39

is the number one disinformation person around

9:41

George Floyd. So there you have it.

9:44

Yeah. And for those people that want to

9:46

give Candace Owens room for

9:49

her rehabilitation on a white

9:51

supremacist handmaid's tour, go fuck

9:53

yourself. Okay. Strong agree. So

9:55

thought leader dash host of this

9:57

podcast, Andy Levy, many years ago.

10:00

Wow. Prickly, Jesse Waters,

10:02

the dumbest man in cable news. Well, I

10:04

think the world finally caught up to Andy's

10:07

thought leadership this week after this clip went

10:09

viral. You're

10:11

making $20 an hour to work at

10:13

a fast food restaurant, right?

10:16

Is that six figures? Are you making

10:18

snow? No, 40 grand. 50 grand. 50

10:21

is just two exits and not a few

10:23

zeros. 40k a year, full-time. 40k a year.

10:26

And then if your husband or wife is also there, you're

10:28

making $100,000 as a family. Sure.

10:32

Both working at McDonald's. 80 grand. Okay,

10:34

that's crazy. That is crazy because

10:37

that job really doesn't require much.

10:39

So it's inflating the entire labor

10:42

sector and... And

10:45

the happy meal. And the happy meal. Unhappy,

10:47

very unhappy. Which I'm very unhappy about. What?

10:51

Uh... So he doesn't

10:53

math, right? Like he doesn't do

10:55

math. But

10:57

also, where in America are you living where

11:00

$100,000 combined, if you're lucky, let's

11:07

say for a family of four, is somehow

11:10

rolling in the go in

11:12

his eyes? Like, I'm

11:15

just trying to make his

11:17

calculations make sense. What

11:19

he's saying is that people who

11:21

work in the fast food industry should

11:24

be living in poverty. That

11:26

is basically his argument. That you shouldn't

11:28

have a living wage and

11:30

you shouldn't be able to cobble together rent

11:33

or a mortgage or food or medicine

11:35

and that you should be

11:37

struggling because you work in the food

11:39

service industry. Did I get that right?

11:42

You got it right. And the other side

11:44

of his mouth, though, all it does on

11:46

his stupid fucking show is say, no

11:49

one can afford to live in Biden's America.

11:51

Yeah, no, that's a great point. Although I'll

11:53

tell you what, Jesse Waters can afford to

11:55

live in Biden's America. Oh,

11:57

yeah. And if you want to talk about

11:59

people who are... overpaid, you could start with

12:01

him. You sure could. I

12:03

don't know what he makes a year,

12:05

but I am sure it's well into

12:07

the seven figures. I saw the five

12:09

million figure being floated in the replies

12:11

to that. That's insane. You talk

12:14

about throwing a whole industry out of whack.

12:16

The idea that one of the five dumbest

12:18

people in America is making $5 million a

12:20

year to talk on

12:23

television is absolutely insane.

12:26

And he doesn't even understand that doubling $40,000

12:28

is $80,000, not $100,000. And

12:33

that is, I'm not a math

12:35

whiz, but that's pretty basic arithmetic.

12:38

Mm-mm-mm. Well, speaking of

12:40

the dumbest people in America, we're now going to

12:42

move to a clip from the five where there's

12:44

four of the dumbest people in America on it.

12:46

I don't know how much there's to analyze in

12:48

this clip, but Jessica

12:50

Tarlov here talking to Judge Box of

12:53

Wine Pierrot is going to be what

12:55

the kids say is a whole last five. You

12:57

know a lot of Trump supporters. Do

13:00

we need to be to programs? Be careful.

13:02

That's why I come to work at the

13:04

day. I

13:06

mean, yeah, we've talked, I've talked about Jessica Tarlov

13:08

before. I like her. I

13:10

think she's great. I don't know how she does it every

13:13

day. And Danielle, you've talked a lot about the cultish nature

13:15

of these people. And I just, there are

13:18

some people who can be quote unquote deprogrammed.

13:20

There are some people who can't be and

13:22

she is sitting at a table with people

13:24

who can't be. You know, somebody, and I

13:26

forget who it was recently that was talking

13:28

about Jim Jones versus Donald Trump. And the

13:30

meme, which was funny, was like the difference

13:33

between the two of them is that Trump

13:35

would have charged you for the Kool-Aid. Yes,

13:37

I liked that one too. But

13:39

there is a difference between people

13:41

who are actually like following cult

13:44

leadership that fall for it that

13:46

are brainwashed. I actually don't think

13:48

that Trump supporters are brainwashed. Like

13:50

I don't think that these people

13:52

need to, they know exactly what

13:54

it is that they're doing. They

13:56

have access to information. They haven't

13:58

been taken away. away from their families.

14:01

They haven't been, you know, put inside

14:03

of a small camp where they have

14:05

to all wear the same outfits and

14:07

they all listen to the same stories

14:09

and they have no access to the

14:11

outside world. So this is a choice

14:13

that they are an active choice that

14:16

they are making. So, you know, can

14:18

they be deprogrammed? No, I don't because

14:20

I don't think that they are actually

14:22

programmed. They've made an active decision to

14:24

be a part of Trump

14:26

world to be an active player

14:28

on Earth too. So I don't

14:31

know if I don't think you can deprogram

14:33

them, but God willing, you know, God bless

14:35

those that try. I think that's true of

14:37

a lot of the MAGA people. I do

14:39

think that for some of the MAGA

14:41

people, and I don't know what percentage,

14:44

and look, I think they've made an

14:46

active choice to do things like only

14:48

watch Fox News and only get their

14:50

their information from certain sources. So yes,

14:52

in that sense, it's their own fault.

14:55

But they are also being because the

14:57

ironic thing about that question being asked

14:59

on Fox News is that Fox News

15:02

is those people are part of the

15:04

programmers, like they're the ones doing the

15:06

programming for the Trump cult. And

15:08

they have absolutely no problem going

15:11

on air and routinely saying things

15:13

that aren't true and everything in

15:15

the service of furthering Trump and

15:17

furthering MAGA world. And I do

15:19

think there are people who are

15:21

just taken in by that because

15:23

stupidly, they trust Fox News and

15:25

stupidly, you know, they trust, I

15:27

don't know whether it's the Federalist

15:30

or the Daily Wire or wherever

15:32

they're getting their news, quote unquote

15:34

news. I mean, deprogramming is a

15:36

harsh term. But I think there's

15:38

a segment for whom all hope

15:40

is not lost. And,

15:42

you know, I don't know that that

15:45

they'll ever be able to break free of it. But

15:47

I guess that's where I differ

15:49

at least slightly from you, Daniel. Okay.

15:52

That's why we call them thought leader,

15:54

Andy Levy. Can

15:58

I just say as of the end of the. this

16:00

recording Trump stock is currently at $33.

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and our good times. Folks,

19:00

I am very happy to welcome

19:02

to the new abnormal anthropologist

19:05

and associate professor at

19:08

Brown University, Yeva Yusenite,

19:10

who is also the

19:12

author of Exit Wounds,

19:14

How America's Guns Fuel

19:17

Violence Across the Border.

19:20

Yeva, I wanna give

19:22

you an opportunity to

19:24

explain to our listeners

19:26

why you decided to do

19:28

a kind of, I guess, in

19:31

how we look at Mexico

19:33

or how the media looks at Mexico

19:36

and how administrations past have looked at

19:38

Mexico. Mexico is the problem.

19:40

That is how the scene

19:42

has been set. What your book

19:45

does, however, is

19:47

show the problem

19:49

of guns and gun proliferation that

19:53

America brings to Mexico.

19:55

How did that narrative

19:58

and conversation happen

20:01

for you in the writing of

20:03

this book? Well, first of all,

20:05

really, thank you very much for

20:07

having me. So yes, when we

20:09

are talking about Mexico, especially in

20:11

the public sphere, in the media,

20:13

in politics, it is that country

20:15

where there is violence, where the

20:17

rock cartels and narcos and God

20:19

forbid, they will bring people who

20:21

are coming here, asylum seekers or

20:23

migrants who we are seeing at the border,

20:25

God forbid, they would bring that

20:28

violence to us, to our country.

20:30

And that is such a limited

20:32

view because that violence, the tools

20:34

of that violence are actually manufactured,

20:36

imported and sold in the United

20:38

States. Most of the guns in

20:41

Mexico found in crime scenes used

20:43

by organized crime groups are

20:45

from the United States. Mexico has very

20:47

strict gun laws. So I was

20:49

working on the border as a

20:51

both as an anthropologist and as

20:54

an emergency responder paramedic and EMT.

20:56

And I was meeting these people

20:58

who were fleeing for their lives

21:00

and risking their lives to cross

21:02

the US Mexico border. And

21:04

at some point I started asking questions. So

21:06

how is this violence happening? And

21:09

I realized that, well, the guns are

21:11

actually sold in these stores in Arizona

21:13

where where I was living back then.

21:16

So I decided I want to

21:18

follow the guns in the opposite

21:20

direction. We focus on these flows

21:22

north, both drugs and migrants, asylum

21:25

seekers. But we are kind of

21:27

oblivious to what is going in

21:29

the opposite direction to make

21:32

the flows of these drugs

21:34

as well as the flight

21:36

of people possible. For the

21:38

last several years, and I

21:40

think that primarily under the

21:43

Trump administration, there was a

21:45

narrative that was created

21:47

and spun by Donald

21:50

Trump and Republicans about

21:52

how dangerous, how awful

21:54

people of Mexican descent

21:56

are. Donald Trump famously said as

21:58

he was running for

22:00

president the first time Mexico sends

22:03

over rapists and drug dealers and

22:05

drug addicts, and from there created

22:08

this entire spin of invasion. And

22:10

I think that what is really

22:12

interesting about your book is

22:15

we never ask ourselves in the

22:17

United States why people are

22:20

fleeing their countries in the

22:23

first place and what role

22:25

the United States had in

22:27

the destabilization of their countries.

22:29

So can you speak to the people

22:31

that you talked to that

22:33

were crossing the border and just

22:36

what you've discovered over

22:38

the course of the research

22:40

for your book that shift

22:43

in perspective that your book

22:45

offers about America's role in

22:47

destabilizing Mexico? So a

22:49

lot of people I was meeting, well, first

22:52

of all, a lot of them are, and

22:55

have been for many years, Mexicans. So yes,

22:57

we are these days, we are seeing migrants

22:59

from all over the world,

23:02

from Venezuela and from Haiti. Well, actually,

23:04

American guns play a huge role in

23:06

what's happening in Haiti as well. But

23:09

I was seeing Mexicans, and those

23:11

Mexicans from places like

23:13

Guerrero were saying that they

23:15

had nothing else to

23:17

do. They were criminal groups who

23:20

would come to their houses or

23:22

their little businesses that they have

23:24

their farmlands and ask for extortion

23:26

money. And once they could not

23:28

pay the extortion, they had to

23:31

flee because they started kidnapping family

23:33

members, they started forcefully recruiting

23:36

children. So people just packed whatever they

23:38

could and ran towards

23:40

safety. The other thing I think

23:43

is extremely important is that, so

23:45

these guns, like how do they

23:47

get to Mexico or to these

23:49

organized crime groups? Well, it all

23:51

begins with people who are Americans,

23:54

people who are US citizens, or

23:56

at least permanent residents, because no

23:58

one else is allowed. to buy

24:00

guns in the United States. So these

24:02

so-called straw buyers, the very first people

24:05

who buy the guns and then pass

24:07

them to the smugglers, they are very

24:09

much Americans. So this

24:12

is like we are implicated

24:14

as Americans in whatever

24:16

is happening on the other side of the

24:18

border. Why don't you think that we tell

24:20

this story? You know, because honestly, the reason

24:22

why I was excited to talk to you

24:25

was because I've never heard this story. Because

24:27

the only story that we ever get to

24:29

hear about America is Americans being

24:31

the quote unquote heroes. You know,

24:34

oh, we're trying to stop the

24:36

problem. And yet we create many

24:38

problems abroad that we never know

24:41

or never told about here.

24:43

Yes, yes, we do create a lot

24:46

of problems. Well, one reason we are

24:48

not talking about that is because it

24:50

is politically more expedient to talk about

24:53

drugs or about migrants. Then you

24:55

can say, oh, we'll increase border

24:58

policing and security and build this

25:00

wall. Talking about guns,

25:03

even in this country, it is

25:05

a very touchy subject and very

25:07

politically controversial one. The

25:10

agency like ATF, which is the

25:12

main agency that kind of oversees

25:15

the gun industry and all

25:17

the violation of federal firearms

25:19

laws, they are one of

25:21

the least resourceful agencies in

25:23

the US government. And so

25:26

it is like we don't want to

25:28

talk about it because we know it

25:30

won't lead us anywhere. And one of

25:32

the major kind of sources of these

25:35

guns in Mexico are specifically states that

25:37

have very, very lax gun regulations. So

25:39

Texas is the primary one between 2017

25:41

and 2021. There

25:45

are 43% of all guns recovered

25:47

in crime scenes in Mexico came

25:49

from Texas alone. They have thousands

25:52

of licensed gun dealerships. And then

25:54

there are gun shows and there

25:56

are private sales and internet sales.

25:59

So... It's very different in

26:01

some parts of the country we kind

26:03

of have stricter gun laws but in

26:05

others not and the conversation on the

26:07

federal level about anything related to gun

26:10

regulation is just very much

26:12

a non-starter. Yes,

26:15

at least. That

26:18

is obscene. It is

26:20

and the other 17% come

26:23

from Arizona and 13% come

26:25

from California but also guns

26:27

go to Mexico from states quite far

26:30

away from the border including Connecticut and

26:32

Massachusetts. What do Mexico's

26:34

gun laws look like? Because

26:37

if they're not manufacturing at the

26:39

level that we are, how are

26:41

people so readily able to cross

26:43

the border into the U.S., go

26:46

to these shows or

26:48

outside of these shows because we know that

26:50

the gun shows in those states are not

26:52

regulated. People may not be able to go

26:54

into a venue but people are selling guns

26:56

out of their cars where you don't need

26:58

any paperwork or any of these things. What

27:02

are Mexico's gun laws look like

27:04

and what does the regulation or

27:06

lack thereof look like that permits

27:08

this type of influx? Mexico

27:11

has very strict gun laws. Since

27:13

the 1970s, they have this law

27:15

that basically allows civilians

27:18

to have up to 10 guns,

27:20

only one pistol and maybe nine

27:22

rifles or shotguns only for people

27:25

who meet a lot of requirements,

27:27

belong to gun clubs, they

27:29

have to register the firearms every year. They

27:32

also have very limited type of weapons

27:34

that people can own. Most

27:37

AR-15 varieties, AK-47 varieties, these

27:40

semi-automatic rifles or even pistols

27:42

of larger calibers, they are

27:44

designated for the use of

27:46

only the military forces and

27:48

the police. Other Mexicans cannot

27:51

have them. However, it is

27:53

very easy for them to cross in

27:55

the United States where there

27:57

are all these networks, there are WhatsApp groups.

28:00

that help you buy guns and

28:02

there are like your cousin can

28:04

help you buy a gun. The

28:06

problem with US-Mexico border is that

28:08

most of the US focus is

28:10

again on what's coming north. So

28:13

we have Customs and Border Protection

28:15

is a huge agency and getting

28:17

into the United States, your cars

28:19

get checked for drugs, there are

28:21

dogs, your documents get checked but

28:23

almost nobody checks southbound flows. So

28:26

people who are leaving for Mexico,

28:28

they're very rarely very randomly inspected

28:30

in the US and also

28:32

randomly only occasionally inspected by

28:34

Mexican authorities. So it is

28:36

very very easy to take

28:38

guns to Mexico like

28:40

hidden under you know your

28:43

clothes or in

28:45

like under sheetrock construction materials depending

28:47

whether you are just bringing one

28:49

pistol for yourself or whether you

28:52

are taking like dozens of semi-automatic

28:54

rifles for organized crime but

28:57

they always get through the ports

28:59

of entry easily. I mean Yevo

29:01

is it fair to say that

29:03

basically for Mexico that the United

29:05

States is their number one arms

29:07

dealer? Oh absolutely, there is no

29:10

question. It actually has been quite

29:12

quite a long time because Mexico

29:14

doesn't really have their own

29:16

firearms industry, they started recently

29:18

manufacturing these guns for

29:21

their military but not for civilian

29:23

use, these rifles but historically they

29:25

have always relied on the United

29:28

States. You can think about the

29:30

Mexican Revolution which was very much

29:32

thought with like Winchester's and Remington's

29:34

and Colts that were also smuggled

29:36

from the United States for various

29:38

factions of the Mexican Revolution. So

29:41

this is not new, what's new

29:43

is that organized crime groups have

29:45

really become more powerful because

29:48

they enrich themselves from selling

29:50

drugs to the United States and

29:52

so they build better arsenal and

29:54

the United States began manufacturing and

29:56

selling more powerful weapons. So this

29:58

kind of the reason historical trajectory,

30:01

but it intensified the

30:03

effects of this American

30:05

firepower in Mexico only

30:07

recently. Mexico also buys

30:10

guns legally from the United States

30:12

for its own military and police

30:14

forces, but for that, actually, Mexico

30:16

buys more European guns, so from

30:19

Italy and Austria and Germany

30:21

specifically, also Israel. So, U.S.

30:23

is not the main supplier

30:26

of legal guns, but it

30:28

is an absolutely major supplier

30:30

of all illegal guns. Go

30:32

on this walk with me. So, the United

30:35

States is the number one

30:37

arms dealer for Mexico, arming

30:39

the cartels, arming

30:42

the organized crime that

30:44

is the cause of

30:47

people fleeing the country and

30:50

coming into the United States. Am

30:52

I wrong? You are correct. So,

30:54

if in fact we

30:57

wanted as a country to

31:00

find a way to limit,

31:02

to stop, to reverse the

31:05

influx of migrants from Mexico,

31:07

would it not then behoove

31:10

us to, oh, I don't know,

31:13

stop the sales of guns into

31:15

the country that is creating the

31:17

violence that people are fleeing from

31:19

in the first damn place? Oh,

31:21

bingo. Yes, it was. Not only

31:23

guns. I think it's very important

31:25

also to think about ammunition, because

31:27

guns that are already in Mexico,

31:29

they will last many years, but

31:32

they need to replenish ammunition all

31:34

the time. And ammunition sales is

31:36

even less regulated in the United

31:38

States. You can buy truckloads of

31:41

ammunition without any paperwork. This

31:44

just doesn't seem like

31:46

rocket science to me.

31:49

Every administration, whether Republicans

31:51

who create draconian, disgusting

31:53

policies that dehumanize migrants

31:56

that are coming into this country, or

31:58

whether it's a democratic The administration's

32:00

that will still be a poor

32:03

the same amount of people back

32:05

to these destabilize countries seem. Every

32:07

single one of the talking points

32:10

in conversations that are had. it

32:12

is always about the people that

32:14

are coming been the problems. It

32:17

is never about what is the

32:19

cause of the problems in your

32:21

view. Any new or research how

32:24

do we change then shipped the

32:26

narrative which is not about the

32:28

people being the problems. But about

32:31

addressing the actual problem which is

32:33

what is contributing to the destabilization

32:35

and the increase in violence and

32:38

what role do we have in

32:40

it? Bad steal for alleged it's

32:42

a vicious circle of violence ride.

32:45

So the problem is that is

32:47

the solution is not so straightforward

32:49

so he yes we could kind

32:52

of sad sad off the tap

32:54

of firepower from the United States

32:56

to Mexico but it would still

32:58

make many years. For the situation

33:01

to improve so I think we

33:03

need to tackle many through that.

33:05

The same time we need to

33:07

tackle drug addiction in the United

33:09

States, we need to tackle organized

33:11

crime groups in Mexico and creed

33:13

like to the Mexican government has

33:15

to work on rebuilding it's criminal

33:17

justice system on finding other alternatives

33:19

for you. Silly would not be

33:21

recruited to these organized crime roof

33:23

at the same time. Yes, if

33:25

leave, stop allowing people to buy

33:27

this powerful ammunition lake. the Ak

33:29

Forty. Seven rounds or or other is

33:31

pure. Police officers would be dying in Mexico

33:33

and then leave. Maybe they would be able

33:36

to protect the a community so then people

33:38

would not be packing and fleeing to the

33:40

United States to the solution has to happen

33:42

on both sides of the board. it is

33:45

a by national. Or regional problem.

33:47

With, as with most illicit economies thing

33:49

is once once it on one side

33:51

and provided from the other, you cannot

33:53

solve it by jets addressing the supply

33:55

side. You also need to address the

33:57

demand side. It's a while to me.

34:00

that in every conversation that

34:02

I think that I've heard

34:04

and people that I have

34:06

interviewed about the crisis, you

34:08

know, of our immigration system,

34:10

it has never been about

34:13

what the cause of the problem

34:15

is. And I really

34:17

think that what is critical about

34:19

your book is

34:21

the responsibility that the United

34:24

States has had in

34:26

creating the violence in

34:28

these countries. I guess I'm

34:30

in a place of like shock at

34:32

the fact that I'm not

34:35

saying that the issue is easy to

34:37

solve, but if you continue

34:39

to not look at the crux of

34:41

the problem, you'll never solve the issue.

34:43

That's right. So I am really grateful

34:45

that you are paying attention to this

34:47

issue. With your book, what

34:49

are your hopes for people that are

34:52

reading this book for the conversations that

34:54

can be sparked from the research that

34:56

you've done? Thank you for that question.

34:58

So I think maybe it is especially

35:01

important this year with election coming up

35:03

and this conversation of unblaming and

35:05

demonizing Mexico and migrants intensifying.

35:07

I think it is critical

35:10

for us to understand how the

35:12

US contributes to this problem that

35:15

then kind of we

35:17

think that by increasing border security, we

35:19

will solve, although we have to look

35:21

for other ways to solve it. But

35:23

I think also kind of

35:26

very important message

35:28

is that we need to understand

35:30

what does it mean?

35:34

How do these guns from the United

35:36

States get to Mexico? And who

35:38

are these people in Mexico who

35:40

pick them up? And what do

35:42

they do with them? And how

35:44

do they create these repercussions that

35:46

then we feel by meeting these

35:48

huge groups of people at the

35:50

border fleeing from violence? So kind

35:52

of the book is very much

35:54

about following the stories of these

35:56

people who sell guns, buy guns

35:58

and use weapons. guns and then

36:01

we feel the effect. Yeah,

36:03

it is, as you've stated, a extraordinarily

36:06

vicious cycle that I do

36:08

believe could be broken if

36:10

we were to do exactly

36:12

what you said, look at

36:14

the suppliers and look at

36:17

the demand that it can't just be one

36:19

group, one country's problem, that it

36:22

is, as you said, a binational

36:24

problem that was created. Yeah, but

36:26

I really appreciate you making time

36:28

to join the new abnormal folks.

36:31

The book is called exit

36:33

wounds, how America's guns

36:36

fuel violence across the

36:38

border. It is a must read

36:41

in a conversation that is

36:43

surely to continue heating up as

36:45

the election gets closer. Really appreciate

36:47

you and your time. Thank you

36:49

so much. Hope you enjoyed

36:51

checking out this episode of the new abnormal.

36:53

We're back every Tuesday, Friday, and Sunday. If

36:56

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