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This is the New Yorker fiction podcast from the

0:40

New Yorker magazine. I'm Deborah Treisman,

0:42

fiction editor at the New Yorker. Each

0:45

month we invite a writer to choose a story

0:47

from the magazine's archives to read and discuss. This

0:50

month we're going to hear likes by

0:52

Sarah Swan-Yen Vynum, which appeared in

0:54

the New Yorker in October of 2017. Even

0:57

to his own ears, he sounded sorry for himself, but

1:00

his daughter, good for her, was not

1:02

thinking about him or his feelings. She

1:05

stared at the elevator doors. You're

1:07

making me feel like I talk too much. She

1:09

whispered furiously, deep in her own

1:12

embarrassment. The story was chosen

1:14

by David Bismoskis, who is the author of

1:16

two novels and two story collections, Natasha

1:18

and Other Stories, which won the Commonwealth Writers

1:21

Prize for Best First Book, and

1:23

Immigrant City, which was a finalist for the Giller Prize

1:25

in 2019. Hi,

1:27

David. Hi, Deborah. Welcome

1:29

back to the show. Thank you. Nice to

1:32

be back. When you were

1:34

deciding what to read today, you

1:36

hesitated between two stories by Sarah

1:38

Swan-Yen Vynum. Can you tell

1:40

me what made you choose likes in the end? And

1:42

also what just makes you a fan of her work

1:44

in general? I guess, you

1:46

know, what made me choose it was kind of

1:49

a sort of

1:51

a superficial reason because they're

1:53

both wonderful stories and she's excellent

1:56

at writing children and

1:58

both of those stories. of future kids

2:01

in one way or another. And

2:03

I just love also how funny she can

2:06

be. There's this

2:08

wonderful sort of wry humor, or sometimes

2:10

more than wry. These

2:12

stories can be very, very funny, which

2:14

I always enjoy. Yeah. What

2:17

do you think she does with the

2:19

lives of children that is unusual? Well,

2:22

it's a good question. I don't know if

2:24

it's unusual, but she's very good at it. It's

2:27

hard to do, right? It's very hard to do. I

2:30

can't think of a thing in writing that is easy to do,

2:33

but it's hard. I think something

2:35

as simple as making them feel

2:37

like real people, not condescending, and

2:40

also giving them kind of a wildness.

2:42

In the other story, the one that

2:45

we're not talking about, the Earl King,

2:47

there's a remarkable, vivid,

2:49

dark fantasy

2:52

world to the child

2:54

that's kind of menacing

2:57

and otherworldly. Sarah

2:59

just does such a remarkable job of making it feel

3:01

real. And

3:03

here, it's also like it's

3:06

intimating the unspoken, the

3:08

things that children don't tell you. And

3:10

she has a way of creating these spaces in

3:12

her stories, because they're stories

3:14

of not just children with children, but they're

3:16

almost always stories of parents and children. And

3:20

so it's like what the parent wants

3:23

to know and can't know. And

3:25

that becomes a feature of it. And that's

3:27

definitely a big part of likes. Right.

3:31

So the story is more

3:33

or less told from the point of view of a father, the

3:35

father of a sixth grader. And

3:38

it involves her Instagram feed, among

3:40

other things. And the story came out almost

3:43

seven years ago. But

3:45

I feel like for parents of tween

3:47

or teenage girls, which both of us

3:50

are, it still

3:52

feels very contemporary. Yeah.

3:54

I mean, that's part of the superficial reason

3:57

for choosing it, The

3:59

fact that. It

4:01

feels very contemporary from Not Respect, which

4:03

is surprising because of how fast we

4:06

feel like technology moves and it feels

4:08

really like nothing has changed in that

4:10

respect. The the other respect is the

4:13

other side of the story because it's

4:15

two things that happen on site. The

4:17

father's following this instagram feed when it's

4:19

a particular moment in time which is

4:22

the Twenty Sixteen election. And

4:24

so these things get fuse

4:26

together in an interesting way.

4:29

They're. Related because of he don't like

4:31

it. will talk about it after I

4:33

suppose. but it's like what is it

4:36

about that election and what is it

4:38

about harm the father's inability to understand

4:40

his daughter. That are sort of common

4:42

elements. Made.

4:44

when facing a similar elections. So

4:47

maybe that's what makes it feel

4:49

even more time. With that say as.of

4:51

the superficial saying that in a way I can

4:53

be the embarrassed to say that as part of

4:55

the reasons for choosing it. but it is remarkable

4:57

to come across a story eight years later practically

4:59

and see that were kind of in the same

5:01

place. Well we will talk for my after

5:04

the story. And now here's David

5:06

This most guess reading likes by far as

5:08

funny and by non. Likes.

5:14

The dad scrolled through his daughters

5:16

Instagram account looking for clues. The.

5:18

Most recent post as a photograph

5:21

of an ice cream cone extravagantly

5:23

large, held up against the white

5:25

off by disembodied hand peppermint stick

5:27

or strawberry. The. Mound

5:29

was starting to melt, a trickle of it,

5:32

inching down the code and drawn dangerously close

5:34

to the thumb. His daughters. The

5:37

next photo was a close up of a shop window.

5:40

Inside the window glowed Pinckney unsigned, spelling

5:42

out the word warm. In

5:44

lower case letters. The. Glowing

5:46

word took up most of the frame. He.

5:49

Was impossible to tell what sort of store at once.

5:52

and other close up. An eraser

5:55

colored rose. it's pedals halfway

5:57

unfurled panorama. The. sky at

5:59

sunset A shot of

6:01

her dog, Bob, curled up like a cinnamon

6:03

bun on the pleated, peachy expanse of her

6:06

bed, and then an earlobe. Was

6:08

that what it was? Soft, rounded,

6:10

partly in shadow. He

6:13

closed his eyes and put down the phone. His

6:16

daughter was nearly twelve, and difficult

6:18

to talk to. Normally,

6:21

she rode the bus home from school, but now

6:24

that she had to do physical therapy twice a week,

6:26

he had been picking her up and taking her to the

6:28

appointments. He felt responsible. These

6:32

problems with her joints, runner's knee,

6:34

Achilles tendonitis, were undoubtedly

6:36

a handicap she'd inherited from his gouty

6:38

side of the family. In

6:41

ballet class, she could no longer do grand

6:43

plies or go up to relevé. In

6:46

the middle of the night, she would wake up in pain.

6:49

He kept a tin of tiger balm on

6:51

her nightstand so that she could find it

6:53

easily in the dark. The

6:56

physical therapist was a young woman dressed as

6:58

an older one in iron slacks and support

7:00

shoes. She had a

7:02

secretive smile and a stiff demeanor. The

7:05

dad didn't always feel comfortable asking her

7:07

questions, but his daughter seemed to like her.

7:10

Hi, Ivy, the therapist would murmur as

7:12

they entered the office, her little smile

7:15

widening, and the two of them would

7:17

disappear into the equipment. From the

7:19

waiting room, the dad could hear the

7:21

whir of the stationary bicycle and

7:23

the sound of their voices, his silent

7:26

companion from the car suddenly talkative.

7:29

It made a kind of music, the wheel

7:31

spinning and her talking. Correction.

7:34

His daughter wasn't entirely silent in the car. She

7:38

sang along to songs on the radio,

7:40

songs patchy with blanked out words that

7:42

she made a point of mouthing but didn't say aloud.

7:46

A billboard might prompt her to ask a question

7:48

like, why is she drinking out

7:50

of a paper bag? Sometimes

7:52

gazing at her phone, she would let out a

7:55

low triumphant hiss. Yes. She

7:58

had gotten every answer right on the Kylo- early-gender

8:00

quiz. Received 74

8:02

likes on her ice-cream photo. Set

8:05

a new personal record on her Snapchat streak

8:07

with Talya. Other days her

8:09

phone lay inert in her lap. Only

8:12

last week she had asked, eyes

8:14

brimming and fixed on the dashboard. Dad,

8:17

can I be homeschooled? Undone,

8:19

he'd answered. Sure.

8:22

After physical therapy in the elevator heading down to

8:24

the parking lot, he gave her a squeeze and

8:27

said, you're quite the conversationalist in

8:29

there. His daughter looked at

8:31

him with alarm. Of course

8:33

it hadn't come out the way he'd wanted it to. I'm

8:36

glad, he tried again, that there's an adult

8:38

you enjoyed talking to. Which was

8:40

true, although it sounded as if he

8:42

meant the opposite. Even to

8:44

his own ears he sounded sorry for himself, but

8:46

his daughter, good for her, was not

8:49

thinking about him or his feelings. She

8:51

stared at the elevator doors. You're

8:53

making me feel like I talk too much, she

8:56

whispered furiously, deep in her

8:58

own embarrassment. New

9:00

Instagram post. Appeeled

9:02

off pair of ballet tights, splayed on the

9:04

white tiles of a bathroom floor. Some

9:08

days his daughter's quietness in the car

9:11

felt blank and mysterious, but some days

9:13

it felt excruciatingly full, like

9:15

an inflamed internal organ about to burst.

9:18

On one such afternoon the dad said carefully,

9:21

I'm not going to look at you. I'm

9:24

not going to say anything. I'm

9:26

just going to keep my eyes on the road. I'm

9:28

going to keep driving, and when you're ready

9:31

you say whatever you want. After

9:33

a moment of silence she said,

9:35

I'm considering it. And then,

9:38

can I curse? He nodded. She

9:41

asked, you won't make any

9:43

noises or have any expressions at all on

9:45

your face. He nodded again. They

9:48

drove for several more minutes. The

9:50

effort was killing him. So

9:53

the dread. He wasn't sure if

9:55

he had the capacity to receive whatever feeling it was

9:57

that she was full of. When

10:00

they were only three blocks from the therapist's

10:02

office, she said to the windshield, I

10:05

have no friends. As he

10:07

eased into the parking lot, she said, and don't

10:09

tell me you were just at Annie's house last

10:11

Friday. I know that's what you're going to say,

10:14

but you can't make me feel better. People only

10:16

hang out with me because there's nobody else around.

10:19

I'm not their friend. She opened

10:21

the car door slowly. I'm their second choice.

10:25

She heaved her backpack off the floor while

10:28

he stayed behind the wheel, noticing

10:30

his breath and absorbing the punch in various parts

10:32

of his body. Why hadn't she

10:34

cursed? New post. A

10:38

hamburger with lettuce and thousand island dressing,

10:40

cut in half, cooked medium rare. The

10:44

physical therapist recommended a series of exercises to

10:46

do at home. Some, like

10:48

the calf raises, were straightforward, but

10:51

others had names such as Clam. Studying

10:54

the printout with its unhelpful black and

10:56

white drawings, the dad asked, you

10:59

understand what all of this means? Fire

11:02

hydrant, dipping bird, short bridge,

11:04

clock. His daughter didn't

11:06

glance up from her phone. Uh-huh. He

11:09

stuck the paper to the refrigerator with a magnet.

11:12

It looked somewhat quaint there. All

11:14

her handouts from school were now distributed

11:16

digitally for environmental reasons. You

11:19

know you're supposed to be doing these every night. No

11:21

answer. Marooned on one side

11:24

of the island, he wondered, not for the first

11:26

time, if open concept was

11:28

such a great thing after all. Was

11:31

she in the kitchen, talking with him,

11:33

or was she in the family room, on the sofa,

11:36

with her phone, unclear? Without

11:39

untying the laces, she scraped

11:41

off her sneakers, toed a heel, two

11:44

consecutive funks. Your

11:46

progress depends on it. You know that, right? Elegantly,

11:49

she lifted her long legs up and out

11:51

of sight. Ivy? She

11:53

sank beneath the horizon of the sofa. Hello?

11:57

Guess what? Her only homework was to watch.

12:00

TV. This was what

12:02

his daughter announced when he picked her up from

12:04

ballet class. In a series

12:06

of texts, he and his wife agreed that they

12:08

would order ramen and watch

12:10

the presidential debate as a family. And

12:13

though it took them a while to get

12:15

started, the restaurant had sent only one spicy

12:17

instead of two, and when they sat down

12:19

on the sofa, Bob kept jumping into their

12:21

laps and had to be crated. Once

12:24

they finally organized themselves, with their drinks

12:26

and their bowls and their napkins and

12:29

their chopsticks, it felt warm

12:31

and momentous being there together in front of

12:33

the television. Dorothy muttered

12:35

encouragement at the moderator. Keep

12:37

at him, she said, bent over her noodles.

12:39

Keep the pressure on. As

12:42

long as Dorothy was leaning forward, he could now

12:44

and then steal a sideways glance at his daughter.

12:47

She appeared to be paying attention, her

12:49

eyes slightly widened, and her bowls

12:51

sitting neglected on the coffee table. Then

12:54

suddenly she leaped off the sofa and

12:56

ran upstairs. You all right? he called.

12:59

Ivy? It's making me

13:01

uncomfortable, she yelled from the top of the

13:04

staircase. He could picture

13:06

her standing there, one foot raised, ready to

13:08

flee. Tell me when this part is over,

13:10

okay? He

13:12

wanted to share a commiserating look with Dorothy, but

13:14

she was still watching the screen, sawing

13:17

her little pendant back and forth on its chain.

13:20

So much for current events, he said.

13:23

His daughter had a pretty collection of pens

13:25

and pencils, a tiny roll

13:27

of tape, a pink pocket stapler, and

13:30

a packet of candy-colored paper clips. All

13:33

these items lived inside a sleek gold

13:35

pouch with a zipper and

13:38

were brought out into the open when she was doing

13:40

her homework at the kitchen table. Her

13:42

tapered fingers danced over them in search

13:44

of the right highlighter. Her

13:47

fingernails sparkled, her school supplies

13:49

sparkled. She had affixed

13:51

very small puffy stickers in

13:54

specific places to her notebooks

13:56

and binders. Watching

13:58

her at work, he realized with pride that

14:00

his daughter would have been one of those girls

14:03

who intimidated him when he was that age. When

14:07

he was that age, a slight prickling,

14:10

like sensation, restoring itself to a

14:12

numb hand was his old

14:14

self considering a return. To

14:17

his surprise, he had trouble recalling his

14:19

thoughts and emotions from sixth grade. Surprising

14:22

because he remembered the fact of having

14:24

felt things, he was

14:26

the point at which his parents took to calling him

14:29

Heathcliff. There were

14:31

a few standouts, to be sure, the

14:33

memory of being lifted into the air and carried

14:35

on a gurney, after he had

14:37

badly sprained his ankle on the basketball court,

14:40

and noticing how far away the ceiling of the gym

14:42

appeared, and the menacing pattern of

14:44

the rafters. But in terms

14:47

of day-to-day twelve-year-old feelings, he

14:49

had strangely lost access. And

14:52

the access needed to be only temporary. All

14:55

he wanted was a point of comparison. Was

14:58

what she was going through normal. In

15:01

the afternoons he held his breath, never

15:03

knowing which girl was going to climb into the

15:05

passenger seat. The happy one,

15:07

braces flashing, asking if they

15:10

could make a really quick stop at Baskin-Robbins,

15:12

or the other one, the one in pain. Had

15:16

he ever felt that way too? If only

15:18

he could remember. All that came

15:20

to him were the first and last names,

15:22

in no particular order, of every kid in

15:24

his homeroom. Stephen Burke,

15:26

Tracy Mason, Derek Wong,

15:29

Billy Flanagan, Don Littlejohn,

15:31

Josh Dachovsky, Luke

15:34

Mandel, Raffi Moncho, Danielle

15:36

Blun. And

15:38

sometimes, along with the names, the faces would

15:40

materialize, like mugshots. New

15:43

Post. A pair of lips,

15:46

shining wetly. Try

15:48

not to internalize. Dorothy whispered to

15:50

him, taking his hand as they waited

15:52

in the dank hallway outside the Nutcracker

15:55

auditions. Practice wearing

15:57

a neutral expression. for

16:00

a while, trying to hear what was going

16:02

on behind the closed doors. When

16:04

their daughter finally exited, looking

16:06

a little dazed, they gently shepherded her

16:08

to the car. Did she want

16:10

lunch? Starbucks? If

16:13

it's okay, I think I'd just like to

16:15

go home and watch YouTube, she said quietly.

16:19

From the depths of the sofa, a now familiar

16:21

voice bubbled. Hi guys, I'm back,

16:24

and I'm so excited because today I'm going

16:26

to be talking about room decor. And

16:28

as you guys know, I love being creative when

16:31

it comes to doing DIY decor. But

16:33

today is extra special because I'm going

16:35

to be showing you my mini Home

16:37

Goods haul. I got so

16:39

many amazing things, but I think the thing

16:41

that I love the most is this incredibly

16:44

fluffy pillow. As you can

16:46

see, it's huge, and I'm pretty sure it's

16:48

real sheepskin. Yeah, it says

16:50

here 100% wool from New Zealand, but

16:52

don't worry, no sheep were killed or

16:54

anything. I don't think so, right? They'll

16:57

just grow back. But the best part

16:59

is how good it goes with these other decorative pillows I

17:01

got at Home Goods. That place is

17:03

so amazing. Their selection is always

17:06

changing. I went in thinking

17:08

I needed picture frames and a dog bed,

17:10

but then I turned down this one aisle

17:12

and I saw the pillows and I went

17:14

crazy. By

17:17

nightfall, his daughters seemed to have revived.

17:19

She practiced her jazz turns on the slick floor

17:21

of the kitchen. She winked

17:24

and dimpled at her reflection in the sliding

17:26

doors. As if for an audience

17:28

stretching into the darkened backyard. The

17:30

dad, rinsing dishes in the sink, had to

17:32

keep dodging her left foot, which she kicked

17:35

without warning, eye into the air. She

17:37

always kicked on that side. It was naturally

17:40

the more flexible of the two. To

17:42

the dad, it would have made more sense to

17:44

practice kicking on the less stretchy side. I

17:47

am the best, she sang tunelessly. The

17:49

best, the best, the best. You can't

17:51

beat me, no you can't. Don't even

17:53

try, because I'm the best. The

17:56

song sounded as if it had been made up on

17:58

the spot. Later

18:00

that week the physical therapist came into the waiting

18:02

room while his daughter was still whirring away on

18:04

the bicycle. For a moment he

18:06

thought she was there to grab a magazine, but

18:08

then she perched on the chair beside him

18:10

and started speaking. I'm wondering,

18:13

she said, wearing her small, formal

18:15

smile, if Ivy has been

18:17

keeping up with her exercises at home. His

18:20

chest began to tingle, the Ivy

18:22

vice squeezing. She wasn't improving.

18:25

She wasn't going to get a decent part in the nutcracker.

18:28

She'd have to spend a second year in the Angel

18:30

Corps, shuffling across the stage

18:32

in the snowflake scene while holding

18:34

a battery-operated candle from Home Depot.

18:37

He felt totally defeated. I think

18:39

she has, he said. I've been telling her to. Then

18:43

he admitted, but I really don't know. To

18:45

his shame he heard himself adding somewhat

18:48

faucally. Maybe you should ask her. Another

18:52

not-great day at school, his daughter buried her

18:54

chin and mouth into the folds of her

18:56

scarf and stared, unseeing at the road, not

18:59

bothering to change the radio station. The

19:01

election coverage continued unchecked in the background.

19:05

Beyond the windshield, a vapor trail bisected the

19:07

blue sky. Closer to

19:09

the ground, block after block of

19:12

residential development streamed past. As

19:15

they merged onto the highway, she asked, do

19:17

you think I cried too much? He

19:20

sat with the question for a handful of seconds and

19:23

then inquired evenly. Who told you

19:25

that? Once you didn't answer,

19:27

he asked, a little less evenly,

19:29

who said that bullshit to you? Also,

19:33

when did it become a crime to feel

19:35

things? She

19:38

retreated deeper into her scarf. Oh, God, Dad,

19:40

forget I asked. It doesn't matter. And

19:43

he glanced down at the insulated cup, resting

19:45

in the holder between them. That

19:47

fucking coffee. He'd been suckered

19:50

by the promised ease of drive-through and ended

19:52

up arriving ten minutes late for pickup. Only

19:55

ten minutes. Not even a quarter of

19:57

an hour, but long enough for someone to have said

19:59

something awful to her. If that,

20:01

indeed, was what had happened, who

20:04

knew what really went on in the

20:06

cluster of low-slung buildings that she disappeared

20:08

into and emerged from every day? He

20:12

had the urge to carry her far away from

20:14

them as far as possible. The

20:16

value of peer interaction was

20:18

definitely overstated. He could

20:20

fill the tank, surprise Dorothy at work, load

20:23

the trunk with nonperishable groceries and

20:26

supplies, and then it would be just

20:28

the three of them, the open road. Not

20:31

like free spirits exactly, more like refugees from

20:33

the zombie apocalypse, but still, they'd

20:35

be together. Plus Bob. He'd

20:38

almost forgotten the

20:40

dog. New post. A cupcake, frosted

20:42

to look like the face of a cute pig. In

20:46

late October, unexpectedly, a stretch of

20:48

sunshine. First off, she'd

20:50

been cast as a dragon dancer in the

20:52

Chinese tea scene, and even though only

20:55

the lower half of her would be visible, she

20:57

was coming home from the rehearsals in high

21:00

spirits, which she attributed to

21:02

teamwork, telling him, you see, it is

21:04

like playing a sport. And

21:07

then, in the space of a few

21:09

days, an e-vite to a disco-themed murder

21:11

mystery party. An afternoon

21:13

working with her partner on a social

21:15

studies project that turned into a

21:17

movie night and a sleepover. A

21:20

plan to go with three girls from her Girl

21:22

Scout troop to the outlet mall. The

21:25

dad stood on the front walkway and watched

21:27

her slide into the backseat of the troop

21:29

mother's minivan. As it pulled away

21:32

from the curb, he waved to

21:34

the shadowy parent behind the wheel. Their neighbor,

21:36

Marcia, happened to be dragging in

21:38

her trash cans. He waved at her, too. I

21:41

can't believe how big she's getting, Marcia called. Tell

21:44

me about it, he said. Always

21:46

running off somewhere, I can't keep up. He

21:49

knew he sounded like an ass, but he

21:51

couldn't help it. He floated up

21:53

the walkway and in through the front door,

21:55

and finding Dorothy upstairs shaking out the bed

21:58

covers, he hugged her from behind. made

22:00

her topple over. On

22:04

Tuesday the physical therapist greeted them as usual.

22:06

High ivy, she said, through her little smile,

22:09

as if he were merely the hulking,

22:11

nameless attendant who traveled alongside the patient.

22:14

But today it didn't bother him, because right away

22:16

he saw that she had done her duty and

22:18

voted. He pointed

22:20

to the oblong sticker on the breast

22:22

pocket of her gray, grown-up-looking blouse, and

22:25

then pointed to the same sticker attached to his

22:27

own chest. Earlier he

22:30

had debated whether he should wait until after school

22:32

and take his daughter with him. It'd

22:34

be something that she could tell her daughter about

22:36

had been his thinking. But

22:38

then he remembered that she had therapy, and

22:40

during his lunch hour went ahead, on his

22:42

own, to the polling station, which

22:45

was in the cavernous basement of an Armenian

22:47

church. After pointing

22:49

to their matching stickers, he gave the

22:51

physical therapist a grin and a thumbs-up.

22:54

Uncharacteristically, she returned the gesture

22:56

with open enthusiasm. Ho-ho!

23:00

Maybe he'd stumbled upon the best way to communicate

23:02

with her, through hand signals. He

23:06

swelled suddenly with positive feelings for her. This

23:08

competent young woman, who was helping his

23:11

daughter, those nice Armenian congregants who volunteered

23:13

for long shifts at the polls, the

23:16

sensible, civic-minded men and women who patiently

23:18

waited with him, giving up their lunch

23:20

hours as he had. He

23:23

felt good about them. He felt

23:25

good about humanity in general. Basic

23:27

decency would prevail, and this exhausting,

23:29

insane election season would soon be

23:31

over, and by tomorrow, he

23:34

could commit his energies fully to planning

23:36

the Thanksgiving menu and making sure that

23:38

his daughter did her fire hydrants every

23:40

night and got better. New

23:43

post. The Black Square. Not

23:45

a photo of a black square, but a photo

23:48

of total blackness, as if the

23:50

camera had misfired or the film had

23:52

been accidentally exposed. The

23:55

whole family had a hard time getting up the next morning. Dad

23:58

felt as if he had been run over by a truck. The

24:00

big, shiny pickup truck that had

24:02

come swerving out of the darkness and mowed him

24:05

down and now had backed up and was waiting

24:07

for him, its engine revving. His

24:09

daughter crouched by his pillow and asked, as

24:11

she often did, to have

24:13

to go to school today. Her eyes

24:15

had turned narrow from crying, then sleeping. Her

24:18

nightshirt had a silvery unicorn on it.

24:22

They had let her stay up to watch the results with them, and

24:24

even in the dim light she looked haggard. She

24:27

said, placing the pillow over his head,

24:29

go back to sleep. It was what he

24:31

intended to do. He had a

24:33

very small window, in which he

24:35

could slip back into unconsciousness and then wake up

24:37

in a world where the election hadn't happened. He

24:40

tried the trick he developed after

24:42

the first of several basketball injuries, the

24:45

trick where he would slow his breathing and

24:48

lie perfectly still, and

24:50

the throbbing in his ankle would cease, and

24:53

he could fool himself into believing that

24:55

he was strong and well before finally

24:57

relaxing into sleep. He

24:59

imagined himself in his old bedroom, on

25:02

his narrow bed, wearing nothing but

25:04

his sultic shorts. He repeated

25:06

to himself, fit as a fiddle, fit

25:08

as a fiddle. But he

25:10

was agonizingly awake. Dorothy's

25:13

body heat beside him was throwing him off. He

25:15

pushed away the pillow inside and

25:17

was startled to see his daughter standing in

25:19

the doorway, fully dressed, with her backpack on.

25:22

What are you doing? he groaned. Why

25:24

aren't you in bed? She took

25:26

a nervous step backward. Daddy, she said,

25:29

I thought you were joking. Life

25:33

was a subject on which his daughter

25:35

collected inspirational quotes, her favorite, "'Life

25:38

always offers you a second chance.

25:40

It's called tomorrow.'" Served

25:43

as the bio on her Instagram profile. If

25:46

asked to describe herself, she

25:48

invariably said either fantabulous or

25:50

optimistic. Among

25:52

the many items on the third draft of

25:54

her Christmas list was something called a happiness

25:57

planner, a daily journal designed,

25:59

she explained. to create positive

26:01

thinking and personal growth. Christmas

26:04

was well over a month away, though

26:06

nearly all the houses on the block already had

26:08

their lights up. On

26:10

a cold morning the Dad sank into the driver's

26:12

seat, and in a fog he backed the car

26:15

down the driveway and into the

26:17

street before he became aware of a painted wooden

26:19

sign on top of the dashboard. It

26:22

was long and thin, with a black

26:24

background and italicized gold lettering. The

26:27

paint had been deliberately rubbed away from the

26:29

sign's edges to make it look like an

26:32

heirloom that had once hung in an ancestor's

26:34

homestead. Usually the

26:36

sign hung on the wall above his daughter's bed,

26:38

for the most part unnoticed by him. But

26:41

now, looking at it closely, he

26:43

saw that its syntax was slightly garbled.

26:46

It read, Life is always offered

26:48

a second chance. It's called tomorrow.

26:52

Not as bad as what he'd seen in

26:54

some instruction manuals, but still off, and

26:56

annoyingly so considering that the words were the

26:58

whole point. He

27:00

flipped over the sign to confirm his

27:02

suspicions about where it had been manufactured.

27:04

Proudly made in Michigan, USA, the sticker

27:07

said. He didn't know why

27:09

he bothered feeling surprised anymore. He

27:11

tossed the sign into the backseat, face down.

27:15

It struck him as darkly symbolic as so

27:17

many things did these days. In

27:19

personal life, marching on, taking

27:22

for itself all the tomorrows you had

27:24

squandered. And don't get

27:26

him started on Michigan. How

27:28

did the unintelligible thing even end up on his

27:30

dashboard? You'd have to remind Ivy

27:32

to take it up to her room, or

27:35

else it would remain in the back of his car for months.

27:39

Do you realize how Snapchat works? Dorothy

27:42

asked him, her face lit up in the dark by

27:44

her laptop. That it just

27:46

disappears, the photos they send each other. And

27:49

that they can write captions on them. Then

27:52

it all goes poof. Like in five

27:54

seconds it's gone. So there's no way

27:56

of knowing what they're receiving or putting out there.

27:59

What images and messages. they're being exposed to.

28:01

There's no way to monitor any of it because

28:04

it vanishes." She clicked

28:06

on her trackpad. "'Hey, do you know

28:08

about this?'" He rolled toward

28:10

her and grunted. Uh-huh.

28:13

With his mouth guardian, he wasn't easy to

28:15

enunciate. She reached over to

28:17

the nightstand and then dropped the neoprene eye

28:19

mask onto his face, saying, "'I think I'm going

28:22

to be up for a little while.'" He

28:25

heaved himself back onto his more comfortable side,

28:27

the side with the good shoulder, and

28:30

pulled the mask down over his eyes. Everything

28:32

disappeared. There was something

28:35

about being suddenly swaddled in darkness that

28:37

made each of her clicks seem slightly

28:39

louder than the one before, as

28:41

if the source of the sound were coming

28:43

very slowly, closer. The

28:48

next morning Dorothy returned from her run

28:50

bearing a stack of newspapers in her

28:52

arms, somewhat tentatively, like she was carrying

28:54

someone else's baby. She

28:56

dropped it heavily onto the island. "'Since

28:59

when do we subscribe to The Guardian?' she asked, and

29:01

the New York Times." The

29:03

dad looked up from his phone in confusion. He

29:06

did recall making a few late-night donations

29:08

to the NRDC and the Southern Poverty

29:10

Law Center, but he'd forgotten all

29:12

about the newspapers. "'You know, there's

29:15

this thing called a digital subscription,' she remarked

29:17

as she opened the refrigerator. He moved

29:19

out of her way. "'That's what I

29:21

did with the Washington Post,' he said, remembering

29:23

now, because they don't deliver outside the DC

29:25

area. "'In a week, this

29:27

place is going to look like a hoarder's

29:29

house,' Dorothy predicted. Piles of

29:32

newspaper everywhere. "'I just

29:34

think it's important to model,' the dad said, looking

29:36

meaningfully in the direction of the sofa. "'Model

29:39

where we get our information from.' He

29:41

half expected his daughter's head to pop

29:43

up like a groundhog's at the mention

29:45

of model. Kendall Jenner? Gigi

29:48

Hadid? "'No, not that kind

29:50

of model,' he heard himself saying, wearily over

29:52

a laugh track. Dorothy

29:54

handed him a glass of juice. "'Stop looking

29:57

so pious,' she said. "'I agree with you.'"

30:00

New Post A hand holding

30:02

a clear plastic Starbucks cup, filled with

30:05

a liquid the color of Pepto-Bismol. In

30:08

it floated small chunks of something red.

30:11

Do you think this was full of caffeine, Dorothy

30:13

asked, her screen tilted in his direction. So

30:16

they'd made a reservation, their table wasn't ready. They

30:19

stood wedged into the little area by the

30:22

door where umbrellas would have gone, if it

30:24

had been raining. Who knows what

30:26

they actually put in their drinks? The

30:28

door opened, the air was cold, and

30:30

they squeezed closer together to let the

30:32

new arrivals through. Well,

30:35

she gets points for consistency, I'll give her

30:37

that, Dorothy murmured, as she

30:39

continued thumbing her phone. She

30:41

was really thinking about her palette. Her

30:44

palette? That was how he

30:46

heard it, palette like where Joan of Arc would have

30:48

slept. On her Instagram it's pink.

30:51

Her palette is a mix of light pink and

30:53

hot pink. He still didn't understand

30:55

what she was talking about. With

30:57

the occasional salmon accent thrown in, he

31:00

blinked angrily. Dorothy had downloaded

31:02

the app only a week ago. What

31:05

about the picture of Michelle Obama, he asked. She's

31:07

not pink. Her dresses,

31:09

his wife smiled at him. At

31:12

this point the hostess looked up from her

31:14

station and signaled for them to approach. The

31:16

noise of the restaurant rose up around them, and

31:19

for a moment he felt enfolded by the warm

31:21

lighting and the voices and the smell of food

31:23

being thoughtfully prepared, but none of it

31:25

gave him any pleasure. As soon

31:28

as they were seated, he ordered wine

31:30

for both of them, and in a

31:32

little bout of resentment told Dorothy that

31:34

a pink palette struck him as depressingly

31:36

cliched. Ivy was just

31:38

imitating what she saw other girls doing online, carefully

31:41

styled shots of donuts and

31:43

videos of dissolving bath bombs.

31:46

Groupthink, he said. She kept

31:48

talking about her personal style and her

31:50

vibe and her aesthetic, but

31:52

nothing about it was actually hers. The

31:55

photo of her hand holding the pink drink

31:57

from Starbucks? He'd seen

31:59

practice. practically the same image posted a hundred times

32:02

before. His

32:04

wife reached out and touched the arm of the passing server.

32:06

Can we get a new fork, please? Accidentally,

32:08

he had knocked his off the table. I

32:13

know you don't like it when I talk about YouTubers,

32:15

but can I tell you just this one thing? What

32:18

makes Ashley Janine different from a lot

32:20

of other YouTubers is that she's really

32:22

honest with her fans. She'll

32:25

come right out and say who's sponsoring her. She

32:27

doesn't try to hide it or make it seem

32:29

like it's just a coincidence that she uses Simple

32:32

and Clinique. She'll say, I'm so

32:34

excited to be working with these brands. And

32:37

also, she's grateful. She

32:39

says all the time how blessed she is

32:41

because she knows it's not usual for a

32:43

23-year-old to be buying her first house

32:46

and have it be so big. She's

32:48

buying a house with a pool. Wow,

32:50

he says, her own pool. She's

32:52

already moved in. Tomorrow, she's going to Lowe's to buy

32:54

house plants. What's Simple? Let's

32:57

see what Clinique was. It's a makeup

32:59

remover, like cleansing facial wipes. They

33:02

don't use artificial perfumes or harsh chemicals, so

33:04

it won't upset your skin. She

33:07

bought a house by using cleansing wipes. She

33:09

has a lot of other sponsors, not just Simple. Plus,

33:12

she's writing a YA novel, so she gets money

33:14

from that too. He didn't know

33:16

how to continue the conversation. Accelerating,

33:18

he made it through a yellow light. Dad,

33:21

his daughter said, after a minute or

33:23

two, when Ashley's book comes out, can

33:25

I get it? He must

33:28

have looked ill-disposed, or maybe he just looked

33:30

ill, because then she said

33:32

jovially, come on, it's reading. But

33:35

could it really be called reading? Did it

33:37

actually count as a book, or

33:39

was it just something amazing? Something

33:43

to be so excited about, to be

33:45

so grateful for? I hope

33:47

you guys enjoyed it. I had so much fun

33:49

doing it, and if you want me to do

33:51

more things like this, make sure to give it

33:53

a big thumbs up and comment down below. And

33:56

don't forget to subscribe to my vlog

33:58

channel, which just got a can of

34:00

water. believe it, 2 million subscribers, because

34:02

there you can see all the behind

34:04

the scenes. So yeah, thank

34:07

you for watching, and I love

34:09

you guys so, so, so much.

34:12

In fact, would it be going

34:14

too far to call it tremendous? Something

34:17

incredible, a massive story, and

34:19

very complex, made by some really

34:22

incredible people of such incredible talent.

34:24

It'll be a big win. There's

34:26

no question about it, and I

34:28

can tell you why. Because, number

34:31

one, the enthusiasm. The enthusiasm

34:33

for this, it is really

34:36

tremendous. Right before the impact,

34:38

he heard his daughter gasp. And

34:40

in the silence afterward, he felt her

34:42

chest rising and falling rapidly against his

34:45

outstretched arm. New

34:48

post. A bared collarbone

34:50

with a seat belt burn running diagonally

34:52

across it. The welt shiny

34:54

with ointment and pink. During

34:59

the intermission of the Nutcracker, he was startled

35:01

to see the physical therapist standing in line

35:03

for the ladies room. She was holding a

35:05

potted orchid from Trader Joe's and

35:08

wearing a velvet blazer. You came, he

35:10

said, a little too loudly. He

35:12

glanced around to see if maybe she had brought a date. She

35:15

asked him, is this Ivy's mom? And

35:17

he remembered to introduce Dorothy, who

35:19

promptly apologized for the length and

35:22

overall cadium of the production. But

35:24

I'm enjoying it, the therapist protested. She

35:28

complimented the girl who danced Arabian coffee

35:30

and also the Chinese dragon dancers who

35:32

had succeeded, the dad admitted, in bringing

35:35

a sort of unruly street energy to

35:37

the show. Ivy was wonderful,

35:39

she said, and together he endorsed, he

35:41

smiled. Like you could really tell, he

35:43

said. She looked at him seriously.

35:46

I would know those legs anywhere. Overpronation

35:48

of the feet, well-developed gastrocnemius,

35:51

she was third from the back.

35:54

The confidence with which she said

35:56

it moved him unexpectedly. He

35:58

wished he could say he knew anything but the that well. He

36:01

thought of all the time she had spent working with

36:03

his daughter deep in the forest of equipment, two

36:06

times a week for nearly three months, not

36:08

only a licensed professional but an expert

36:10

in her field. And here

36:12

she was, on her day off. It

36:15

was a therapist who was smiling now. Don't

36:18

look like that, Dave, she said. It's not magic

36:20

or anything. It's just my job. He began

36:23

smiling, too, to show that he,

36:25

of course, understood, but judging

36:27

from the expression on her face and on

36:29

Dorothy's, it was very possible that his eyes

36:32

were also leaking a little. The

36:34

likelihood made him smile even more, that

36:37

and the fact that, well, what do you know?

36:40

She did remember his name, after all. A

36:43

week after the performance, he came home late from work,

36:46

and when he pulled the rental car into the driveway,

36:48

he saw his daughter sitting at the dining room table.

36:51

She was framed photogenically by

36:54

the room's picture window. For a moment, he

36:56

felt the vice in his chest tightening. Why

36:59

was she alone on a Friday night? Why

37:01

hadn't Dorothy set up a sleepover for her? Why

37:04

hadn't anyone invited her to their house? But

37:07

as he climbed out of the car,

37:09

he saw that she appeared unperturbed and,

37:12

in fact, rather happy, or at least

37:14

happily occupied. She had

37:16

her earbuds in and was making Christmas cards,

37:18

and the supplies spread out in a glittering

37:20

swathe across the table. When

37:22

she spotted him outside, she immediately yanked

37:24

out her earbuds, pushed back

37:26

her chair, and hurled herself against the

37:29

picture window, landing with a

37:31

soft thud. Her cheek lay

37:33

smushed against the glass, her arms were

37:35

splayed, and while she still needed one

37:37

leg to stand on, she'd lifted the

37:39

other and pressed its bent shape to

37:41

the window. What in the world?

37:44

He had no idea what she

37:46

was expressing or rehearsing, but the

37:49

gesture was undoubtedly directed at him.

37:52

What in the darkness he gave her a thumbs up,

37:55

but her eyes were limply shut. Not

37:57

a muscle moved. It was all very realistic.

38:01

Was he witnessing the magic

38:03

of dance, of—what was it

38:05

called when she was little—creative movement?

38:09

Somehow she had managed to convey through her

38:11

body precisely what he had been feeling since

38:13

November, not crushed, not

38:15

flattened, but flung, as

38:18

if from an obliterating blast against

38:20

a hard, exposing surface, spread,

38:23

embarrassed, suspended, without the strength to

38:26

open his eyes and survey the

38:28

damage. He put down

38:30

his computer bag and drew closer to the window.

38:33

He tapped lightly on the pane, but she

38:35

didn't flinch. Pressing

38:37

his palm to hers, he wondered if she

38:39

could feel his outline through the glass. He

38:42

tried it with his other palm and then his cheek.

38:45

He raised and crooked his knee to match the

38:47

angle of her leg. In

38:50

sixth grade theater class he'd had to do

38:52

mirror games, but actually this

38:54

was easier, because now he got

38:56

to choose his partner. What

38:59

was hard was balancing on one foot. When

39:02

he started to wobble, her silent laughter

39:04

made the whole window shake. That

39:10

was David Bismoskis reading Likes by

39:12

Sarah Swenyan Bynum. The

39:14

story appeared in The New Yorker in October of 2017 and

39:17

was included in Bynum's collection Likes, which was

39:19

published in 2020. You

39:25

come to The New Yorker Radio Hour for

39:27

conversations that go deeper with people you

39:30

really want to hear from, whether it's

39:32

Bruce Springsteen or Questlove or Olivia Rodrigo,

39:35

Liz Cheney, or the godfather

39:37

of artificial intelligence, Jeffrey Hinton,

39:40

or some of my extraordinarily well-informed

39:42

colleagues at The New Yorker. So

39:44

join us every week on The New Yorker Radio

39:47

Hour, wherever you listen to podcasts. WNYC

39:52

Studios is supported by Sony Pictures

39:54

Classics, presenting Wicked Little Letters, a

39:56

new mystery comedy based on an

39:58

outrageously true sketch. in the 1920s

40:01

English seaside town residents begin to receive

40:03

wicked letters full of

40:05

unintentionally hilarious profanities prompting a national uproar and

40:09

a criminal investigation. Wicked Little Letters is now playing

40:11

in New York and

40:14

Los Angeles everywhere April 5th only in theaters. David,

40:21

I feel so in a way this is almost

40:23

a mystery story as both the father and the

40:25

reader try

40:29

to understand whether what this girl

40:31

is going through is so-called normal

40:33

tween experience or whether there's something more

40:35

serious or complicated happening with her. Right.

40:38

Do you have an idea about the answer to that question?

40:42

Well, you know, having read it multiple times

40:44

now, I think what's interesting about it is to

40:47

that question specifically this idea of normal, why

40:49

the father is so concerned about his daughter

40:55

why is he so involved? Why

40:57

is it so all-consuming for

40:59

him at this moment in

41:01

time? What

41:04

is it that gives him

41:06

reason to fear that there's anything

41:09

really terrible happening? And

41:13

to me it feels more like if it's

41:15

a mystery, part of it is like, what is wrong with

41:18

him more than what's wrong with her? And

41:21

in a way maybe even like what is wrong with contemporary

41:24

parenting than with this girl? There

41:28

are two parents in this story. One of them

41:31

is much more anxious than the other. And

41:35

maybe in, you know, in

41:38

Sarah's choice of choosing to

41:40

tell it from the dad's

41:42

perspective against

41:48

the person who's most removed from, you

41:50

know, not just the

41:53

experience of being a tween, but also of being a tween girl. I

41:56

mean, he must have, you know, he knew some, but he

41:58

was an adult. never one

42:00

of them. And I

42:02

wonder if the reason that Dorothy isn't

42:04

as freaked out as the dad, whose

42:06

name we ultimately learn, is

42:10

in part because she was once a girl. Right.

42:12

And also they talk more. It

42:15

seems as though what's happened is

42:17

fairly common, which is this girl has

42:19

hit the age where she shuts

42:21

down on her parents, or maybe

42:23

just on her father, you know, where he

42:26

had a little girl who probably talked to him all

42:28

the time, and now she's not talking. And

42:32

that can be devastating for a parent. Yes.

42:35

And I guess we catch him in

42:37

a moment where he, you know,

42:40

he talks about clues. He's

42:42

looking for clues, and he's looking for clues,

42:45

in particularly, you know, from

42:47

her Instagram feed. So

42:50

yeah, it sounds like, you know,

42:52

something had changed. There was,

42:54

you know, a previous Ivy and then

42:57

a new Ivy, and he's trying to

42:59

understand. Yeah.

43:02

The irony of it is trying

43:04

to understand through Instagram, you know,

43:06

what he's looking at is what

43:08

she's choosing

43:10

to present as her

43:12

public persona, perhaps kind

43:14

of aspirational. I mean, how

43:16

much do you think he can find her real

43:18

self there? And

43:21

yet we do it all the time. In

43:23

a way, maybe because it's the public

43:25

persona that she transmits to the

43:27

world that is not meant to be

43:30

her parents. She doesn't think

43:32

about her parents looking at these things.

43:34

She's thinking about her peers, the people

43:36

that she wants to get likes from.

43:39

So I guess he feels like, you

43:41

know, he can't go into the low slung buildings

43:44

and follow her into school. But

43:46

maybe this is the closest he can get to that

43:49

aspect of tween experience.

43:51

It's a curated thing that she's putting

43:53

out there. And ultimately, you know, he

43:56

gets frustrated. On the one

43:58

hand, he wants her to be normal, but he also doesn't want her to

44:00

be cliche,

44:03

which is interesting. Right. Right.

44:06

I was reading an interview with Bynum about

44:09

this story, and she said, these photographs

44:11

offer a window into the daughter's inner

44:14

world that I think is much

44:16

more wild and tangled and rich than

44:18

the medium or the format of Instagram

44:20

itself might suggest. That

44:23

made me sort of stop and think

44:25

because I'd hit everything's pink and

44:27

moved on in a way. What

44:30

wildness do you think you see in

44:33

these photographs that she's put up? I

44:35

don't. I don't.

44:39

I hate to dispute the author,

44:41

but I don't until the

44:46

seat belt one, which is something

44:49

that feels wilder. But

44:52

I also think maybe she does it because something

44:55

has changed in her post-election.

45:00

Right. We

45:02

get the black, the

45:04

all black post, and then she's

45:07

back to pink, but it's a pink wound. It's

45:09

a pink wound. And she's also

45:12

the one image that isn't on

45:15

Instagram, but it's in his car, the

45:18

thing that she used to have above her bed,

45:20

that he doesn't understand how it got in the

45:22

car. But we do. Well, let's

45:24

talk about that. You assume she put it

45:27

there, yeah? Yeah. Yeah,

45:29

she doesn't feel like it's a dark moment

45:31

where it doesn't feel like life is offering

45:33

you a second chance called tomorrow because she

45:35

woke up tomorrow and tomorrow is not good.

45:38

What do you think is going

45:40

on in her mind that makes her

45:42

stick that sign on her father's dashboard?

45:45

I mean, obviously, she's trying to make a point to him.

45:47

It doesn't occur to him that that's what she's doing. It

45:50

didn't occur to me either. It was funny because I

45:52

thought that I liked

45:54

your reading of it better. I thought she was just trying to get rid

45:57

of it. But maybe your reading

45:59

is the better one. that it's the more hopeful

46:01

one, that she's actually reassuring

46:04

him. Or accusing. I

46:06

mean, who knows? Who knows? You know, it

46:08

could go either way. I just think if she wanted

46:11

to get rid of it, she would have put it

46:13

in the garbage can or something. Right. But it seems

46:15

so personalized to put it on her father's dashboard. But

46:18

she's also unaware of

46:20

the garbled syntax. And

46:23

if that's what she meant to do,

46:25

it definitely doesn't have that effect. It

46:28

has the opposite effect. It

46:30

just reinforces his despair. Yeah.

46:33

And reminds him of Michigan. And reminds

46:36

him of Michigan. I

46:39

want to go back to something you brought up earlier.

46:41

The fact that Dorothy and Ivy

46:43

have names from almost

46:46

the beginning of the story. But

46:48

the father, his name doesn't come up

46:51

until very close to the end. And even

46:53

then he's prized that someone has used it,

46:55

that the physical therapist remembers it. And I

46:57

wonder why you think that is? Why he

47:00

goes nameless for so long? There

47:02

are two characters in the story that don't have

47:04

names. Him and the person

47:06

who wins the election. But the physical therapist

47:08

is also never named. It's,

47:11

you know, in thinking about the story, it's

47:14

the dad who we later learn

47:16

is named Dave. He's like

47:18

the only man in the story. And it's a

47:21

story otherwise populated by women. And I wanted to

47:23

have like this great theory where the man is

47:25

not named, but all the women

47:27

are. Well, there's also Bob, the dog. We assume

47:29

Bob is the male dog. It's

47:33

because he doesn't have

47:35

individuality for

47:38

most of the story. And

47:41

I think there's this moment where

47:43

I mean, until then, and there's

47:46

something going on between him and his

47:48

and this physical therapist, which is quite

47:51

tame, but slightly more than

47:53

just tame. What do you

47:55

mean? I think it's he's competitive with a

47:57

physical therapist. Well, I also think he's uncomfortable.

48:00

comfortable around her in some way,

48:02

but also because I

48:04

think he's attracted to her.

48:06

I think that moment where

48:08

he notes that you bring

48:11

a boyfriend, is there somebody with her? It's

48:14

the only relationship

48:16

in the story where

48:20

he's nervous in

48:23

a way that has to do with

48:25

himself, like

48:27

his individual personal

48:29

self. He wants to, I

48:31

don't know, impress her in some way. I

48:36

think in all the other ways he's so neuter,

48:39

right? Like even with his wife he's so neuter.

48:42

Yeah. So for that one moment

48:45

when he has so

48:47

much sort of affection in him to give, so

48:49

he gives her a hug and like knocks her

48:51

over onto the bed. Right. He's

48:54

like, right, but he could have involved the dog the way

48:56

he does it. You know what I mean? Exactly.

49:00

It's like, how do these people

49:02

even copulate to have a child? Like there's

49:05

something that happened to Dave. We

49:08

have an account of him

49:11

when he's a

49:13

teenager playing basketball

49:15

and there's something very physical going on with

49:18

him. He plays basketball, he

49:20

gets hurt. And then most

49:24

of his existence is channeled

49:26

into worrying about his daughter, some

49:28

part of it worrying about the election. But

49:30

as for like him having any desire

49:34

or aspirations or anything

49:36

that is personal in a way, we don't even, like he

49:38

goes to work, we don't know what his job is. We

49:40

don't know what Dorothy's job is either. Yeah.

49:43

I mean, I wondered if he's called the father

49:45

for so long just because that's all he is

49:47

and that's all we're going to get

49:49

of him, is him as a father. And

49:52

that's why I think when the

49:54

therapist says she remembered his

49:57

name, that's Why It's such a thrill

49:59

to him. Because.

50:01

She saw him. You.

50:03

Know even in this. Kind.

50:05

of trivial way. As

50:08

more than just. A

50:10

hulking attendant to the patient. right?

50:13

Like she saw Dave Us as a man,

50:15

Attorney as a person as a person. A

50:17

person with a name and that have that

50:19

kind of affirms him. Like I

50:21

don't know how they've got to be so

50:23

far gone. a discussed this is what he

50:26

needs for it, but I think that's what

50:28

happens like for so much of the story.

50:30

He is just the dad and all his.

50:34

Energy as channeled into mostly his

50:36

daughter. Yeah. And

50:39

yet it's not an entire

50:41

typical generation gap. Story.

50:43

It's not about. There

50:45

being friction caused by a. Being unable

50:48

to understand the experience the child

50:50

you know it's what what seems

50:52

most. Salient me

50:54

here. Is. The

50:57

intensity of his desire to understand.

50:59

You. Know they're not need not yelling at her. You need

51:02

to be. Acting in this

51:04

way, not that way. he's actually the

51:06

Eastern. The opposite he sang. You can

51:08

say whatever you want, and I'll be

51:10

completely silent and express unless he's. Out of.

51:14

This enormous well as feeling

51:16

for her. And. Then

51:18

no way to express it. The

51:21

way to express a pretty good

51:23

at or that they can find.

51:25

but I think that's probably true

51:28

of contemporary parenting, including for father's

51:30

On where I think the stereotype

51:32

before was of being sort of

51:35

a distant, absent person. Or

51:37

me. Now I have three daughters and. I

51:40

have friends who are fathers and

51:42

they're very involved in their children's

51:44

live in a dangerous a pendulum

51:46

swinging too much on the other

51:48

extreme. Where. You become too

51:51

involved and you lose a sense of

51:53

yourself. So. It's like finding

51:55

the place. Where

51:57

you can show love but. also

52:01

leave your children the space to be who they need

52:03

to be. I

52:05

think you're more sympathetic to Dave than I am. I

52:09

feel like Dave has done some of this to himself,

52:12

not to be too hard on him, but it's like back

52:14

to sort of

52:16

this question I pose about him, it's like, how did you

52:19

let this happen to yourself? You

52:23

weren't this way your whole life. I guess it is

52:25

one of the bizarre

52:27

paradoxes of becoming

52:31

a parent, where you

52:34

had been your own person

52:36

for so long and then you have children

52:38

and the idea is

52:40

that they're supposed to learn from

52:42

you and you're supposed to be some kind

52:45

of model, to use that word, their modeling

52:47

behavior. But at the same

52:49

time, he's so wrapped up in

52:52

what's happening with her that I'm not sure

52:54

what he's modeling. So

52:56

nobody listening to him, it's like, well,

52:58

I'm not sure what Dave has to

53:01

say that is worth listening to, not

53:03

to be too hard on Dave, but I guess I am.

53:09

He makes some good choices, right? In

53:12

that moment when he says you can say whatever you want

53:15

and I won't comment on it, he

53:18

gives her a huge amount of

53:20

freedom. Oh, definitely. He's

53:22

very attuned to her mood

53:26

and I think generally not

53:28

falsely so. He doesn't seem to

53:30

be imagining it. No,

53:33

no, I think he's incredibly well-meaning

53:37

and really does want to understand her. We're

53:40

starting to get into some sort of parenting

53:43

philosophy part of our conversation,

53:45

but it's like, yeah, well, what do children actually

53:47

want? What do they want from their parents? Love

53:52

the fact that their parents want to understand

53:54

them. But

53:57

probably... Independence, yeah. Yeah, but

53:59

something... else like to understand like to

54:01

see something of their parents that's admirable

54:04

when she comes after the election and says

54:07

you know without going to school

54:09

and he's like just go back to bed and

54:11

then she comes back and she thinks he's joking and

54:13

she says daddy oh it's kind of heartbreaking when she

54:16

calls him daddy because

54:18

he's the dad but then she's like the little girl

54:23

and he says no I meant it like

54:27

it's that really the one moment in the story

54:29

where he's not catering to her. Yeah

54:33

she's also probably afraid right and she

54:35

wants her world to be normal and

54:38

this is so abnormal. There's

54:41

sort of a failure of the parental authority

54:43

you're right there is a moment in which

54:45

he's sort of failing her there. Yeah

54:49

it's so interesting to think about

54:52

this story because we're talking about

54:54

it eight years later there's so

54:56

much vagueness around

54:59

the election the

55:01

year is never given the

55:03

name of the candidates is

55:06

never given it's this idea that

55:08

like 50 years from now well you need footnotes

55:10

to understand what's going on here. Right

55:14

well we get the father saying you know

55:16

or he has high hopes that basic decency

55:18

will prevail. Right.

55:22

Which is a tip off for us right now

55:24

maybe I hope it still will be in the

55:26

future. Yes. But of

55:28

course it doesn't prevail. No

55:31

it didn't it certainly did not feel

55:34

like decency prevailed

55:37

or I think you

55:39

know maybe this is worth talking about now. You

55:42

know why the

55:45

story is set at this particular moment and

55:48

what is it that you

55:51

know joins what's

55:53

happening with him and Ivy and

55:55

the election like the commonality between

55:58

these two things. Yeah. I mean,

56:00

it's interesting. I think there's a kind of continual

56:03

sort of threat of danger in

56:05

the story that keeps almost

56:07

happening. I mean, and then even

56:09

the most dangerous moment, that car

56:11

accident, you know, you get to that

56:14

passage and you think, oh, my God, you know, she's

56:16

going to die or he's going to die or something.

56:19

And that's just like a seatbelt burn on

56:21

Instagram. You never

56:23

even know what happened. His attention

56:25

was distracted from the road because he's

56:27

obsessing about a YouTuber in this, you

56:29

know, sarcastic way. A

56:32

YouTuber, but also somebody else, right? Right,

56:36

yeah. He goes

56:38

from the jargon of

56:40

YouTube to the jargon of Trump. Yep,

56:42

yep. Yeah. And

56:47

then, of course, that is in

56:49

the world of the story, the biggest disaster is

56:52

the election result. I feel

56:55

like the story ends on

56:58

a happy note. Yes. Surprisingly,

57:03

just with this strange moment of connection between

57:05

them. But what sets it off

57:08

is this bizarre image of this

57:10

child throwing herself at

57:13

the window and

57:15

hitting it in the position of someone flung

57:17

as if from an obliterating blast against a

57:19

hard-exposing surface. It doesn't – you

57:22

know, this doesn't sound lighthearted.

57:25

What do you think she's – what should we

57:27

think she's doing there? I

57:30

mean, there's, I think, a literal

57:32

thing that she's doing, which

57:35

alludes to, I would say, the

57:37

car accident, right? The thing

57:40

that we don't see, the windshield.

57:43

I guess she wasn't probably flattened

57:45

against the windshield because of

57:47

the seatbelt. But

57:50

I think she's alluding to that. And

57:53

then there's this other part of

57:55

it, which I guess is – for

57:57

him, it's the election. I don't know if she's alluding to that.

58:01

It's at the level of storycraft.

58:03

It's so amazing because,

58:06

and it took me a while to absorb it.

58:11

Like the story starts with Dave

58:13

looking at Instagram, which is just

58:16

images, you know, under glass.

58:20

And it ends with

58:22

her actually becoming this

58:26

ephemeral Instagram

58:28

image just for

58:30

him, and that he

58:32

can participate in. And

58:34

he gives her a thumbs up in the dark. Like

58:37

it is so, it's so subtle, right?

58:39

But for those of us who know, who've,

58:42

you know, which is, I think everybody now,

58:44

like, how do you demonstrate that you like

58:46

something? Well, yeah, it's a thumbs up.

58:48

It's a like. So

58:50

he likes her image to

58:53

the point of what you were saying, Deborah, about how the

58:56

images become wilder. I think that's the wildest

58:59

one of them all. And

59:01

that one is just for him. And

59:03

he likes it. He likes it

59:06

so much he, you know, communes

59:08

with it in his way. I

59:11

have mixed responses to it because I also,

59:13

the description of it makes me think of

59:15

kind of a chalk outline, you know, where

59:17

his body has fallen, that

59:20

kind of pose that you would see in a

59:22

death scene. And

59:25

then he makes it alive again. And

59:28

he's also balancing on one foot, and

59:30

she's balancing on one foot. And there's

59:32

all that stuff about his bad leg

59:34

and her bad leg. Yeah,

59:37

it just, it ties so

59:39

much together at the very

59:41

end. And then she, you know, and then she

59:43

laughs. I don't think she's really laughed with

59:46

him or for him up to

59:49

this point. And

59:52

it's so loving, you know, finally he

59:54

gets the Instagram image

59:58

that he wanted. So, I mean, in that sense, it's just. sense

1:00:00

it's yeah it's a very hopeful ending and

1:00:03

he also concedes that it's something that

1:00:06

probably could not have been communicated any

1:00:10

other way and so it's

1:00:12

an image that

1:00:14

he interprets that

1:00:17

gives him a sense of connection

1:00:20

to her Bynum

1:00:22

did a Q&A about the story when

1:00:24

it came out and she

1:00:26

said you know I'll just read it to you she

1:00:28

said what takes the dad by surprise is

1:00:31

not his daughter's ups and downs but the intensity

1:00:33

of his own feelings as he watches her go

1:00:35

through them he thought he was

1:00:37

just tagging along for the ride and now finds

1:00:39

he can't get off the roller coaster he

1:00:41

knows that he should be down on the

1:00:44

ground waving and smiling in a stationary figure

1:00:46

feet planted but instead he's

1:00:48

up in the air right beside her clutching the

1:00:50

lap bar and screaming my

1:00:53

question is like why

1:00:56

you know why is it

1:00:58

so difficult why is it so hard for him

1:01:00

to create the

1:01:03

necessary objective distance in a way that his wife

1:01:05

can and he can't I guess

1:01:07

that's part of the

1:01:09

experience of reading the story like or

1:01:12

for me because I'm a

1:01:14

father and you know I think about how to

1:01:16

parent children daughters in my case

1:01:20

and do think about you know the

1:01:24

losing yourself or not losing

1:01:26

yourself and yeah finding the

1:01:31

necessary or the best way to

1:01:33

relate to your own children and

1:01:36

what you know for

1:01:38

lack of a better word what

1:01:40

image to present to them yeah

1:01:43

yeah he has no Instagram now

1:01:48

yeah and he tries a few he tries several

1:01:51

approaches that's in that final one's the only one

1:01:53

that works yeah

1:01:56

and I guess it's also maybe

1:01:58

for him it is kind of

1:02:01

a regression to his own

1:02:03

12-year-old self in

1:02:06

that, you know, in

1:02:08

that flashback. What

1:02:10

do you think of his childhood? I think it's sort of so

1:02:12

poignant that he looks at her and thinks

1:02:16

she was the kind of girl he would have been afraid

1:02:18

of back

1:02:20

then who would have intimidated him because

1:02:22

she still intimidates him. Yes. And I

1:02:25

think that I've thought that too in reading the story.

1:02:27

It's like how odd

1:02:31

it is that you

1:02:33

can be the parent

1:02:36

of someone who would have intimidated you when you

1:02:38

were, you know, that age. But

1:02:40

I created you and maybe that's part of Dave's

1:02:42

problem that he still, even though

1:02:44

he says he can't remember himself

1:02:47

at, you know, in the sixth grade at 12. So

1:02:50

much of the story when he does reflect back is

1:02:53

about him being her age. Yeah.

1:02:55

And it's funny that what he remembers, you

1:02:57

know, he can't remember sixth grade, but he

1:03:00

remembers the faces of

1:03:03

all the kids in his grade and they sort of pop

1:03:05

up like mug shots. I mean, it sounds

1:03:07

to me more like he's remembering

1:03:09

a yearbook or something, but that

1:03:12

was, you know, that was his Instagram. Right.

1:03:15

Exactly. And all of their names, I mean, from

1:03:17

a, just from a writing standpoint, it's like I

1:03:19

would want to ask, they're like, are

1:03:22

those actually the names of

1:03:24

the people in your

1:03:26

homeroom? Or did you have to like sit down

1:03:28

and come up with names, which I find always

1:03:30

very, very difficult to do. I don't

1:03:34

think we would have allowed her to use real

1:03:36

people. Oh, really? Okay. Yeah. From

1:03:39

a legal standpoint. What if she said this

1:03:41

kid was awful in sixth grade

1:03:43

and then that person sued her? But she doesn't

1:03:45

say anything about them. They just, just their names

1:03:47

and their faces. Yeah.

1:03:53

So yeah, no, I think those were

1:03:55

invented, invented Dave classmates. We

1:03:59

didn't talk about the title. at all. Should we

1:04:01

talk about the title? Yeah, let's talk

1:04:03

about the title. So I mean,

1:04:05

there's the obvious reason that it's

1:04:07

called likes. Do

1:04:10

you think there are less obvious reasons? You

1:04:13

really get that the core of

1:04:15

Dave's concern about language and probably,

1:04:17

you know, the author's concern about

1:04:19

language too. And

1:04:21

the extent to which it

1:04:26

enables something in our

1:04:29

lives and in the culture when

1:04:31

language gets transformed

1:04:34

this way, you know,

1:04:36

in the most, that kind of in a, in

1:04:39

an anxious way to talk about it.

1:04:42

Yeah. But for Ivy, that is, that

1:04:44

is her language. That's the language

1:04:46

she's learned and knows, and

1:04:48

she wouldn't question it. Exactly. Yeah,

1:04:50

that's good. That's good that you say that ever

1:04:52

because I say the first part where it's like,

1:04:54

I sound like old and boomerish, and then you

1:04:56

say this part, which is good. Yes.

1:04:59

Yeah. And it's not as menacing

1:05:02

to her. That's just the fact of

1:05:04

life, right? This is what she, she's

1:05:06

young enough, you know, for

1:05:10

there not to be really a pre social

1:05:12

media time in her life. There's

1:05:14

a time when she probably didn't have it, but there

1:05:17

wasn't a time when it didn't exist. And

1:05:20

I think the, the

1:05:23

way that she knows that there's anything

1:05:25

even, you know, somewhat

1:05:27

pejorative associated with it is

1:05:30

her parents and

1:05:32

her dad. And she like she tweaks

1:05:34

him, she plays with him about like, she's

1:05:36

writing a YA novel. Come on, dad, it's

1:05:39

reading. She

1:05:41

knows how he feels, but but he, I mean, he

1:05:43

seems ridiculous to her in that way. I think in

1:05:45

the way that all parents seem

1:05:48

ridiculous to their children, and when they feel kind

1:05:50

of outmoded. Yeah. So

1:05:54

for you and me, it's like, I'm

1:05:57

sure, well, at least I have got to that point where

1:05:59

I'm like, yes, it's reading, reading, read it,

1:06:01

do it, do it, because at least you're

1:06:03

reading as

1:06:05

opposed to staring at your phone. So,

1:06:07

uh, yes, I'm there, I'm there at

1:06:09

that moment. I got dragged along, I'm

1:06:11

there too. Yeah,

1:06:15

she knows, she knows. They're

1:06:18

both right, which is,

1:06:20

which is what's great about,

1:06:22

you know, good, good art.

1:06:24

They're both right. She's right

1:06:26

to be anxious and

1:06:29

she's also right to not

1:06:33

be paranoid, um,

1:06:35

and just to live her life. And there's

1:06:38

probably, as he's trying to reflect

1:06:40

back on being, you know, 12 years old

1:06:42

and is it normal? Well,

1:06:45

yeah, he can, if he could access

1:06:47

that part of himself, you

1:06:49

could take all the Instagram out of it in

1:06:51

the Snapchat because that's not really

1:06:53

what he's worried about. He's

1:06:55

worried about what it's like to be 12 and

1:06:58

that it hasn't changed quite so much, if only

1:07:00

he could access it. The

1:07:02

nice thing is to be reminded that, you know,

1:07:05

even in your most

1:07:07

paranoid moments, um, that there's still

1:07:10

more that is, um, similar

1:07:13

than dissimilar about, you

1:07:15

know, being a child.

1:07:18

Yeah, yeah. And ultimately he's worried about her

1:07:20

happiness, you know, he's worried about, about

1:07:24

what she's feeling. Yeah. And

1:07:29

I guess parents have always worried about that. I'm

1:07:31

actually not 100% sure that parents have always worried

1:07:33

about it to this extent. No, I'm not sure

1:07:35

either. That's the

1:07:37

type of preoccupation that feels. Not

1:07:39

supposed to be feeling. You're supposed to be doing your

1:07:41

homework. Yeah. And you as a

1:07:43

parent are supposed to be like, you know, off,

1:07:46

you know, smoking or something. That's

1:07:48

the cocktail part of it. Yeah.

1:07:51

She's concerned about, you know, the Dorothy side

1:07:53

of a play date, but

1:07:56

it's so beautifully done because

1:07:58

it's, it's prismatic. that way

1:08:00

you can you know you can see it from all these sides

1:08:03

and it's funny so many

1:08:05

instances where I had to like try not to crack

1:08:07

up because the

1:08:09

writing is so good and she does this thing

1:08:11

which she does it in her other stories too

1:08:13

a type

1:08:16

of withholding like with the fork

1:08:18

you only realized later that in

1:08:21

his rant he'd

1:08:23

like smack the fork off the table and

1:08:26

it's a very satisfying way of figuring

1:08:28

that out and the same way as

1:08:30

a car accident all these things this

1:08:32

lovely sort of dramatic withholding yeah

1:08:36

well thank you David oh so much

1:08:38

fun it's such a great story Sarah

1:08:43

Swenyan Bynum is the author of three books

1:08:45

of fiction Madeline is sleeping a winner of

1:08:47

the Janice Heidinger Kafka prize Miss

1:08:50

Hempel Chronicle and likes which was published in 2020

1:08:52

and was a finalist

1:08:54

for the LA Times book prize and the story prize

1:08:56

in 2010 she was chosen

1:08:59

as one of the New Yorkers 20 under

1:09:01

40 fiction writers David

1:09:03

Bismosgus is a filmmaker and writer he's

1:09:06

published two story collections and two novels the

1:09:08

free world which was a finalist for the

1:09:10

Governor General's Award in the killer prize and

1:09:13

the betrayers which won the National Jewish Book

1:09:15

Award he was also chosen as

1:09:17

one of the New Yorkers 20 under 40 in

1:09:19

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Deborah Treisman thanks for listening you

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