0:02

This is a Global Player

0:04

original podcast. People judge

0:06

you differently because of how you look.

0:09

And I'd say that comes with a responsibility rather

0:11

than a burden. I think it's

0:13

balance of when are you a

0:15

black politician talking about black issues and

0:18

when are you a politician who is black?

0:20

And I regularly said, I think you have

0:22

to be able to do both. That is

0:24

Vaughan Gethin, the new first minister of Wales.

0:26

It is a high office, a big achievement

0:28

in itself of course, but even bigger, even

0:30

more remarkable that Gethin is not

0:32

just the first black first minister of

0:35

a UK nation, arguably the most senior

0:37

black politician in our history, but he

0:39

is in fact the first black leader

0:41

of any European country. And yet

0:43

for most outside Wales at least, even within the rest

0:46

of the UK, he is an unknown

0:48

figure. His story, his politics untold. We

0:50

thought it might be a good idea

0:52

to change that. He

0:54

said, the new first minister to come

0:56

into the news agent studio to reflect

0:58

on a political journey that started in

1:00

Zambia, the son of a vet of

1:02

an Ogmore Bay sea father and Zambian

1:04

chicken farmer mother, which took him to

1:06

the hills of Monmouthshire and eventually to

1:09

the pinnacle of Welsh political power, Cardiff

1:11

Bay. It's Lewis here. Welcome to

1:13

the news agents. Well,

1:21

we're joined now by the first minister of Wales,

1:23

the new, newly minted first minister of

1:25

Wales, Vaughan Gethin. How does it feel, Vaughan? Very

1:28

good. You can call you that. I suppose you

1:30

should call you first minister FM. Vaughan

1:32

has been my name for a long time. Although I

1:34

should say it's not my first name. No. No,

1:37

I found out when I went to school that

1:39

Humphrey is in fact my first name. Humphrey. You

1:42

have to take your full name in for the register. You could

1:44

have been Sir Humphrey. I could, but I'm

1:46

delighted that my mother stuck up for me

1:48

and told my father that she purred

1:50

the name Vaughan. So I've always been a Vaughan and I'm

1:53

very happy about it. I think you've had a lucky escape

1:55

to be honest. I think so as well. The nickname of

1:57

Humphrey is not ideal. Yes, Humphrey, Humphrey, all that sort of

1:59

stuff. The point of these

2:01

longer conversations is to talk a

2:03

little bit about policy and we'll do that, but

2:05

also to talk about your

2:07

own political background, life, inspiration, which

2:09

I think is particularly useful with

2:11

you first minister because outside of

2:13

Wales, it's probably true to

2:15

say that until quite very recently, until you

2:18

became the first minister succeeding Mark Drakeford, perhaps

2:20

much of the rest of the UK weren't

2:22

aware of you or familiar with you. So

2:24

just talk us about a little bit about your

2:27

background. My father was

2:29

from South Wales, born in Ogmore by sea,

2:31

went to school in Griffithtown and oddly one

2:34

of my best friends in politics is now

2:36

the counsellor for Griffithtown. My

2:38

mother, born in Zambia, she

2:41

ran a chicken farm, small holding.

2:43

My father became a vet, moved

2:45

to Zambia and met my mother and I am one

2:48

of the products of their union. The family

2:51

then moves from Zambia to the UK

2:53

in 1976. My dad

2:55

got a job offer in Mumbershire

2:58

near Abigabenny and they

3:00

told him to come back with his

3:02

family and then the job offer was

3:05

withdrawn and it's worth reminding people

3:07

that this was the middle of the

3:09

1970s and some people today will

3:11

find that authentically shocking that

3:13

a job offer for a professional role

3:15

of veterinary surgeon is withdrawn because a

3:17

white man then turns up with a

3:20

black woman and lots of brown children.

3:22

But I think if you asked black

3:26

and brown people who were around in the

3:28

1970s they'd say that's not uncommon

3:30

and frankly that's not the worst thing that

3:32

happened. So we ended up

3:34

living in Dorset by accident and in the

3:36

local primary school we were literally the only

3:39

black children in the village and

3:41

in our secondary school we were always at least

3:43

half of the children who weren't white in our

3:45

secondary school. So we were

3:47

always visible and obvious and different and everyone

3:49

knew you're one of the vets boys aren't

3:51

you? But you ended up back in Wales.

3:54

Was it a political family? Were your parents

3:56

political? No, not at all. It

3:58

was sort of apolitical, didn't really think about it.

4:00

I wouldn't quite say that. My father was never

4:02

overtly talking about politics and encouraging us

4:04

to get engaged. My

4:06

father had been a Labour

4:09

voter early in his life and then transferred

4:12

with his change in newspaper from the Times

4:14

to telegraph the crossword. And his political views

4:16

had shifted as well. Well, he changed for

4:18

the crossword. He changed the crossword and his

4:20

politics had shifted. I'm not sure it's entirely

4:22

all about the crossword, but he changed his

4:24

views on politics. It's a weird power of

4:26

the crosswords. The power of the crosswords. Underappreciate

4:28

his thing in politics. So he

4:31

was a Conservative voter and

4:34

we had many discussions. All of my siblings

4:36

when we were home were very clear that

4:38

we were Labour-leaning or Labour members. And

4:41

we regularly disagreed about stuff. There were various points. So

4:43

my mother would send us out in the garden when

4:45

we started talking about politics. So she

4:47

didn't have to hear it. But getting involved in

4:50

politics. But actually I went through to university to

4:52

be a lawyer. I actually had to come back

4:54

home because I was really ill. I

4:56

was really ill. I had a kidney disease,

4:58

at least you've heard of nephrotic syndrome. But

5:00

you know, Jonah Lomey, the famous

5:03

rugby player. I've got to

5:05

tell you first minister. I've got to tell you how

5:07

old you are. Well, I don't think this is my

5:09

age first minister. So much to say that my knowledge

5:11

of rugby is perhaps not what it should be. So

5:13

Jonah Lomey was an absolute phenomenon in the world of

5:15

rugby in the 90s. He had

5:18

a kidney disease. He left rugby.

5:20

He then had a kidney transplant.

5:22

He returned to rugby, played in

5:24

Cardiff. And then his transplant

5:26

eventually fell and he died. I

5:29

had the same disease but I got better. But I

5:31

had a year of my life that

5:33

was really, really badly affected. So my

5:36

first year I became very, very ill.

5:38

I had to leave university and restart.

5:40

And I had really difficult conversations with

5:42

my dad. We said to talk to

5:44

my mum and they would

5:46

offer a kidney for me if the treatment didn't work. But

5:49

I got better. But I was

5:51

permanently affected. So I've never been as physically as

5:53

fit as I was. I mean, I actually in

5:55

quite good shape. I'm not unhealthy compared

5:57

to the wider population. But actually I know

5:59

of things I was able to do that

6:02

I then couldn't do and never recovered. But

6:04

I'm also very much aware about the fact that I

6:06

was able to go and have a life and make

6:08

loads of choices because

6:10

the NHS cared for me, because it was

6:13

there for me when I needed it. And

6:15

was that part of the process or one

6:17

of the things that made you political? Or

6:19

were there other things that mattered at play?

6:22

So I was political from my teens, and

6:25

this is because I inherited the family paper

6:27

and. So my elder brother,

6:29

Mioba, and then my brother, Howell, they

6:32

had turned the family paper in the village. And

6:34

when I then started doing it, as well

6:36

as reading the sport pages, I was

6:39

interested in the front pages, I started towards the

6:41

news, got more interested. Neil Kinnick was still the

6:43

leader of the Labour Party. And

6:46

I'd had a developing view on what is fair in

6:48

the world and what isn't. And my

6:51

view was then and is now that the

6:53

Labour Party is the greatest engine for social

6:55

justice. I didn't think then that

6:57

I wanted to be a politician, I wanted to

7:00

be a cricketer or a singer. And I became

7:02

a lawyer, but I stayed active in student politics

7:04

and in the local party. So but my

7:07

NHS experience was definitely part

7:09

of my journey into seeing the relevance

7:11

of choices that are made. And

7:13

actually the fact then big public services

7:15

that the great public rely on, you've

7:18

got to have the will and the choices to

7:21

see those come through. Do you I

7:23

mean, you've alluded to this already, but

7:25

obviously growing up in Britain, Dorset, Wales,

7:28

at that time, not

7:30

that many people from ethnic minorities

7:32

around black people around in

7:34

school and so on. What was that like?

7:36

What was it like growing up as a

7:38

black boy in those days? Well,

7:41

in primary school, I think they had

7:43

a really great time, actually, it was

7:45

the move to secondary school, okay, much

7:47

more aware about the fact that people

7:50

do see you and judge you differently.

7:52

Think about this, I'm 10 to

7:54

12 years old. Daily

7:57

Thompson is one of the most famous athletes

7:59

in the country. And there

8:01

are people say you really run with daily Thompson now.

8:03

I am 11 12 years old. I'm a child Yeah,

8:06

I have no hair on my face.

8:08

I'm really slim daily Thompson

8:10

is the best decathlete in the

8:13

world Right, he's Superman. He's got

8:15

a big bushy black mustache I

8:18

don't quite understand how you say to

8:20

a child who is really slim not

8:22

very tall you remind me of a

8:25

15 16 stone Super

8:28

being a doppelganger exactly no

8:30

But so you have that thing of

8:32

lots of people saying this other famous

8:35

person who isn't like it's who you

8:37

remind me of It's a much I don't look anything

8:39

like them. It'll be like saying, you know, you really

8:41

mind me of Kirsten Well, thank

8:44

you. How on earth is that possible? You know,

8:46

it's a ridiculous physical comparison to me Sometimes it's

8:48

kindness and it's positive. I've done this less so

8:51

When you start getting called names when that starts to be more of

8:53

an issue Fighting the playgrounds if you

8:56

talk to people my age, they'd say all

8:58

of this is really normal I think I

9:00

had a good experience at school overall, but that doesn't mean to

9:02

say that it was free from People

9:05

giving their own views on you because they're kind

9:07

of your skin which is not always a good

9:09

thing and much was made Understandably when you were

9:11

elected first minister what just a few weeks ago

9:14

About the fact that not only the first

9:17

black First minister leader

9:19

of a UK nation, but you're the

9:21

first leader of a European nation

9:25

Obviously that in so many ways must

9:27

feel Exhilarating

9:30

I suppose it must feel like it must

9:32

feel momentous. Does it feel like a burden

9:34

in any sense? Are you aware of the

9:36

responsibility of it if you do feel any

9:39

responsibility? Look, I've been acutely

9:42

aware for a long time The

9:45

people judge you differently Because

9:48

of how you look now sometimes that

9:50

can be really negative. There are lots really wanting you to fail

9:52

There are also other people who are

9:54

desperate for you to succeed and

9:57

there are hopes and ambitions invested in

9:59

you you. And I'd say

10:01

that comes with a responsibility rather than a burden,

10:04

because, you know, I do think there's responsibilities

10:06

and I want to see more people like

10:08

me in public life, obviously more people being

10:10

successful, and being successful

10:14

for the whole community and the whole country. And

10:16

I think it's this balance of when

10:18

are you a black politician talking about black

10:20

issues? And when are you a politician

10:22

who is black? And I've regularly said, I think

10:24

you have to be able to do both. And

10:27

I'm keen to do both and do them really

10:29

well. And I think we can make a

10:31

difference for black

10:33

men, black women, boys and

10:35

girls who look and say, can

10:38

I be what I can't see? And

10:40

now you can see it, but then you want

10:42

to understand that actually, it's also about being good

10:44

at your job. We obviously like to think, and

10:46

of course, in so many ways we have, we

10:49

like to think that we've progressed a

10:51

long way from some of the attitudes

10:54

and mores that were present in Britain

10:57

that you've described when you were growing

10:59

up. Obviously, we have had very recently,

11:02

an example, egregious example of racism, which

11:04

has taken place in our politics, which

11:06

is of course, the Hester Diane Abbott. What

11:08

was your reaction

11:10

to that? And not just reaction to

11:12

it, but to the political reaction from

11:15

some quarters towards it. You

11:17

don't have to be a fan of Diane Abbott to

11:20

recognise that was appalling. And Diane Abbott

11:22

for some time has been the most

11:24

abused black politician in the country.

11:26

The fact that she's a woman is one of the adds

11:28

to that. You know, the

11:30

comments he made were wholly indefensible.

11:33

And what I thought was really

11:35

telling was about the for a period of time,

11:37

there were some people who wanted to avoid criticising

11:39

them. Well, I wanted to avoid saying it was

11:41

racist. Indeed. And then that included

11:44

number 10 for a period.

11:46

Indeed, they avoided that. You

11:48

shouldn't be afraid to say, well, that's just wrong. And

11:51

Kenny Badminton, of all people came out and said, this

11:53

is wrong. And it's plainly racist. Now,

11:55

I disagree with him. I've got a whole

11:57

range of things. But actually, it shouldn't be.

12:00

that a black person in the Tory party needs to set

12:02

for evidence as to, well, actually, I kind of agreed, you

12:05

know, this probably wasn't the best choice. Do you think that

12:07

sent a pretty toxic

12:09

message to black people, black

12:11

kids in this country, that period when we

12:13

had number 10 refusing to say that

12:17

a leading donor who had said

12:19

that what

12:21

they had said and represented made him want to

12:23

shoot her was racist? I

12:26

think it was really poor, indefensible,

12:30

and it's all the sort of stuff that drives more division

12:32

in the country. That division is

12:34

real, and it's played out in not just what

12:36

people think and are prepared to say in rooms

12:38

that they can private. Those

12:41

attitudes have real consequences as

12:43

well. So for

12:45

all of you go back to the 1970s

12:48

and what happened with our family and what

12:50

happened and was much worse for many

12:52

other families, there is

12:54

progress across the country since then. But

12:57

none of us should pretend that progress

12:59

is indelible or is perfect and

13:01

there's nothing more to do. You

13:03

have to constantly rewind the battle and say that

13:05

decency matters for all of us. For you, as

13:08

much as for me, there is a sort of

13:10

country we want to be and should be. Would

13:13

you like to see, I mean, you know that

13:15

Diane Abbott's case, her own

13:18

accusation that it was against her that she

13:20

had been anti-Semitic, it's now 12 months, that

13:22

review. I know it's not your responsibility, but

13:25

you'd like to see that brought to an end, wouldn't you?

13:28

I mean, it's gone for 12 months now. I'd like to see the issue

13:30

resolved. Would you like to see her brought

13:32

back into the party? I mean, she does occupy a

13:34

unique place, doesn't she? She was the first black woman

13:36

MP, not just a Labour party, full stop. She served

13:38

the party since 87. She has

13:40

a life. The initial comments

13:42

you made were deeply problematic and I would never

13:45

try to defend them. I

13:47

went back into a mirror image of what happened previously

13:50

where people call out racism as long as it's

13:52

not on their own party. And so

13:54

what went out in her name was

13:57

wholly unacceptable. a

14:00

resolution to it. Would you like to see it? Just

14:02

personally, do you think that she should be brought back

14:04

in? She has apologized, and she apologized very

14:07

quickly, unlike Hester, for example. Yeah,

14:09

I think the difficulty always is about what else is

14:11

in the rest of the case and the evidence. I

14:13

want to see a resolution that is clear and is

14:16

public, and I want to see us all move on.

14:18

And if the Labour Party decides that Diane Abbott

14:20

can make it to the fold, then

14:23

that is an outcome that I'm happy to live with.

14:25

If there's a different outcome, I want to understand what

14:27

the outcome is, but I want an outcome so

14:30

people can move up, because at the

14:32

moment it ends up being from 12

14:34

months. I asked Keir Starmer about this,

14:36

and he said, well, this is the

14:38

process, but 12 months. For one letter,

14:41

it seems extraordinary. People accuse this,

14:43

suggest this is about factional considerations rather

14:45

than about the actual substance. If you

14:47

look at what's happened within our party,

14:49

we still have a problem with how

14:51

quickly we're able to move through these,

14:54

regardless of where people are from, within

14:56

the different strands, the Labour Party. And

14:58

the problem is, I don't know all

15:00

the details. I can't tell you about what

15:03

information's been shared, where the law is. It's

15:05

not your responsibility. No, it's not just the responsibility. I

15:07

can't tell you about the internal process and who knows

15:10

what. And that's the challenge, but I am very keen

15:12

to see a resolution. Right. We will be back with

15:14

more from the First Minister right after this. This

15:25

is The News Agents. I

15:29

want to talk a little bit about Welsh Labour. I

15:31

mean, Welsh Labour, sometimes we talk about the SNP and

15:33

their remarkable run in office since 2007, for 15 years

15:36

or so. I mean, actually, people

15:39

always forget, often forget, it seems to me, Welsh

15:42

Labour has had an even more remarkable run. I

15:44

mean, you have literally been in government in one

15:46

form or another in Wales since the beginning of

15:48

the devolution settlement at the end of the 20th

15:50

century, which is remarkable. It must

15:52

be one of the longest serving administrations

15:55

of one party or one party or another

15:57

in Western history, I would have thought. Why

16:00

do you think it is that Labour

16:02

in Wales, particularly when Labour nationally has

16:04

had so many ups and downs and

16:06

in Scotland as well, what is it

16:08

about Welsh Labourism that is

16:10

so enduring and that means

16:13

that time and time again Labour

16:15

has returned to office? We've

16:17

never taken for granted the extraordinary

16:20

position we're in in being the largest

16:22

party in Wales. And we've

16:24

had difficult elections through that time, it looked like

16:26

actually we could go further and further backwards. Everyone

16:29

thought that about the last election for example in 2021 but it didn't

16:31

happen. Well indeed

16:33

at the start of that election period there

16:35

were lots of people predicting this would be

16:37

the end. That's partly

16:39

because there's the mechanics of campaigning, there's what you

16:42

do but I think it is also the point

16:44

about always being prepared to

16:47

listen to the public and to renew trust and

16:50

I think that's hugely important. I was thinking

16:52

in terms of politics, we've never surrendered

16:54

our ground on being proud to be Welsh

16:57

and proud to be British so we've never

16:59

gone into a dreadful cul-de-sac that looks like

17:01

we're apologists for someone else. And

17:03

I think people do see that Welsh Labour

17:06

does speak for Wales and we

17:08

have people visibly from different parts of Wales

17:10

too and I think that matters. And do

17:12

you think that that was a difference in

17:14

how Scottish Labour approached questions around the Union?

17:16

Because there always was historically wasn't there, a

17:18

little bit more reluctance on behalf of Scottish

17:21

Labour to fly

17:24

the saltire because it was always considered in Scotland

17:26

to be a bit more of a kind of

17:28

conceding ground in some way to the SNP and

17:30

so on. Welsh Labour always had

17:32

a slightly different approach didn't they in terms of

17:35

the relationship between Welshness, Britishness and

17:37

so on and you think that is part

17:39

of the reason why Welsh Labour has survived

17:41

and remained extremely strong whereas

17:44

Scottish Labour didn't. If

17:46

you go and talk to people in Wales,

17:48

they are proud of Wales, including people who

17:50

aren't born in Wales and they

17:52

want to know that people that are leading the

17:55

country are proud of Wales too as well and

17:57

it's never been, I think, a pain in the ass.

18:00

for Welsh Labour to say, well, you know,

18:02

we're all really proud of being from Wales

18:04

and of Wales, proud of the country we

18:06

are and the country that we can be

18:08

as well. And I've never thought it'd be

18:10

a good idea to try to vacate that

18:13

ground because it wouldn't be authentic either. You

18:15

know, whether you are in Swansea

18:17

or in Unnissmoor nor Flincher or

18:19

Newport, people are really clear

18:22

about the fact that they're part

18:24

of the country and who and where

18:26

they've come from to be recognised. And I

18:28

think that sort of inclusive approach about

18:30

the country we are is really, really important.

18:33

Your predecessor Mark Drowford had suggested in

18:35

the past that if Scottish

18:38

voters kept returning FMP,

18:40

governments, majorities or pro-independence majorities

18:43

to Holyrood, that he

18:45

thought that at some point that should be recognised

18:47

and that Westminster couldn't keep just denying another referendum.

18:49

Would that be your position as well? Do you

18:52

think that in terms of devolution settlement,

18:54

that's kind of how it has to work? If

18:57

you look at where we are, I think

19:00

there's every prospect that Scottish voters will deliver a

19:02

different result of the general election and indeed the

19:04

Scottish Parliament. And obviously I want that. I would

19:06

like Anna Sauer to be on a sofa here

19:09

with me in the future of the First Minister

19:11

of Scotland. But the position

19:13

on Scotland is led from

19:15

Scottish Labour as it should be. And

19:18

they're very clear that they

19:20

don't think a parliamentary election is

19:23

an alternative for a referendum. And you'll

19:25

know this, Lewis, in your own engagement,

19:27

why people vote for parties at different

19:29

elections. It isn't a

19:32

single issue challenge. So if you think about

19:34

now, where people care about the cost of

19:36

living crisis and the rise

19:38

in taxes for working people, all those people

19:40

have multi-factors within them and that will be

19:43

part of how people choose to vote in

19:45

the general election. And I

19:47

don't even claim there is one single reason.

19:49

But clearly there are strains with the devolution

19:52

settlement. We're seeing that in particular play out

19:54

between Westminster and Scotland at the moment. We've

19:56

seen a particular piece

19:58

of legislation. Obviously with

20:00

relation to self ID essentially vetoed by

20:02

the Westminster government the first time that

20:04

that has happened We've seen

20:07

the kind of process There's a kind of

20:09

assumption pretty much from the start of the

20:11

devolution settlement that kind of transfer of powers

20:13

would sort of continue And be slowly augmented

20:15

that stopped or at least there's been a

20:17

feeling certainly amongst Conservatives in Westminster

20:20

that ought to stop and maybe in some cases

20:22

even be reversed How

20:24

comfortable are you with that dynamic at the

20:26

moment? How comfortable were you for example with?

20:29

the Westminster vetoing the Scotland self

20:32

ID bill I think there's

20:34

a different view about whether Different

20:37

parliaments have the competence to make laws and

20:39

that's the issue that's come up with

20:41

that particular legislation Where

20:43

I'm much more animated and

20:46

frankly angry is about the

20:48

way that the current UK

20:50

administration Has continued

20:52

to aggressively pursue Evolved

20:55

responsibilities either through money

20:58

or Trying to change

21:00

piecemeal pieces of legislation. It seems like

21:02

every couple of months. There's another proposal

21:04

in a bill for

21:06

UK ministers to be able to

21:08

exercise devolved responsibilities in Wales and

21:11

there are regular points in time where UK ministers want

21:13

to spend money in areas that are plainly devolved and

21:16

not just our responsibility because I'm sat here

21:18

as the first Minister of Wales because people

21:20

chose to create The

21:22

evolution in 99 they chose to

21:24

augment it. They've chosen in devolved

21:26

elections Invoked for people in

21:28

the Senate and if Welsh conservatives

21:30

or UK conservative of the chains up they

21:33

need to win the election So when Kia Stalmer when

21:35

if he becomes Prime Minister You're

21:38

saying to him you want more power to well, I

21:40

love you I'd want a different settlement in terms of

21:42

some of the powers we have but I think that

21:44

means that mean more power Some impact

21:46

in some areas. Yes, but the starting point

21:49

is I want respect

21:51

I don't want an acknowledgement of

21:53

the responsibilities we all have and

21:55

I think that's the way the

21:57

future a stronger Union lies a

21:59

successful Wales in a successful Britain.

22:01

And to be fair, Keir Starham

22:03

has been very clear in private

22:06

and in public, he wants a

22:08

totally different relationship, a Prime Minister

22:10

who regularly meets First Ministers from

22:12

devolved governments, but also for

22:14

England as well, a new

22:16

settlement on devolution within England too,

22:18

to get away from a very

22:20

centralised UK. And I think that

22:23

will be good for Britain, not just socially, but

22:25

economically as well. But of course, I mean, Welsh

22:27

Labour and the Welsh Government does occupy a particular

22:29

place in the rhetoric of our politics at

22:32

the moment, has done for some time. And

22:34

even just today, as we're talking on Wednesday

22:36

this morning, we're seeing that Prime Minister done

22:38

into you on LBC. And you'll

22:41

have heard this many, many times in

22:43

terms of rhetoric from Conservative politicians. But

22:45

here he is again, holding your government

22:47

up, and you've been a minister

22:49

in that government for some time, as a punching

22:51

bag to use you to

22:53

try and beat Keir Starham. I listen to this. Which

22:55

thing is your trust is this, Louise? I

22:58

can't say it's in Welsh, but... Right,

23:00

well, actually... I think

23:03

that's an interesting point, actually,

23:05

Louise, because it's the

23:07

Labour Party who run the NHS in Wales,

23:09

as you know, because devolved government in Wales.

23:12

And I think, you know, actually, there's a

23:14

very clear contrast to what's happening between England

23:16

and Wales. Like across the UK, all NHSs

23:18

have experienced backlogs from COVID.

23:20

But actually, if you look at what's happening

23:23

in Wales right now, in contrast to the

23:25

NHS in England, which we're responsible for, average

23:27

wait times in Wales are longer. The

23:30

longest waits is actually what you're talking about.

23:32

We virtually eliminated people waiting two years and

23:34

made enormous progress on one and a half

23:36

year waiters in England. There are still thousands

23:38

and thousands of people in Wales who are

23:41

waiting the longest amount of time. In fact,

23:43

there are one in five people sitting on

23:45

a waiting list in Wales, and A&E performance

23:47

in Wales is the worst in Britain. Now,

23:49

that is the reality. It's interesting that Louise

23:51

has called from Wales. That is

23:54

the reality of Labour and Power. Right now, I'm

23:56

not saying there aren't challenges with NHS. Of course

23:58

there are, and we're working on them. But the

24:00

contrast in how Labour's running the NHS in Wales

24:02

will demonstrate to you that our plan in England

24:04

is actually working and making a difference, and you're

24:06

not seeing that in Wales and people like Louise

24:08

are paying the price. I don't necessarily want to

24:10

get into a whole kind of exchange of statistics,

24:13

which I'm sure you can provide. But

24:15

it is telling, isn't it, that the

24:17

Conservative government feels able, repeatedly,

24:20

to point to your government's very, very

24:22

long record and say, that is what

24:24

we can expect from a Keir Starmer

24:26

government. I mean, actually, presumably, you

24:28

would say that what you've done in Wales is

24:31

indeed a model for Keir Starmer to

24:33

follow in the UK because you're so proud of it.

24:35

Across the whole range of things? Yes. And

24:37

we need some honesty in the debate rather than in the

24:39

Prime Minister blurting out the whole things

24:41

that are some way from the truth in a number

24:44

of areas, and of course, waiting this in England and

24:46

rising faster than in Wales. You wouldn't deny it. You

24:48

wouldn't deny it. But we know that the NHS in

24:50

Wales is in a very parless state. We know that

24:52

we have challenges in parts of our service, and it's

24:55

part of what I'm determined to see resolved,

24:58

both in what we can do now within

25:00

the resources we have, but also to recognise

25:02

that most people's experience of the NHS in

25:04

Wales is a really good one. We

25:07

could do so much more if we

25:09

had partners across the UK. We

25:12

know that we need to invest more in

25:14

the future of our service. And

25:16

I don't think we can do that. Keir Starmer isn't proposing

25:18

to spend very much more money on the health services, you

25:20

know. There's a constantly diminishing

25:22

asset. And if you go

25:25

back to 1996, and I

25:27

was generally young in 1996, Lewis, we

25:29

had real challenges then and the Labour

25:31

Party in opposition was really clear that

25:34

it would not simply lose fiscal discipline because

25:36

we weren't sure they could trust the party.

25:39

We did, though, see not just a victory

25:41

in an election, but some discipline around the

25:43

fiscal rules, growth in the economy, and investment

25:45

in public services that was sustained. I'm

25:48

confident we can have a UK Labour government

25:50

that will invest in public services in

25:52

the future economy again. That will be good

25:55

for Wales and good for Britain. And if they don't,

25:57

I'm not your response to Keir Starmer B if we

25:59

get to the end of the next Parliament. and economic

26:01

conditions have not improved and there is no more money

26:03

for Wales. And you're going to need it, aren't you?

26:05

Because although I'm sure the Prime Minister is selectively quoting

26:07

statistics, but as you know for well, I mean, if

26:09

we take NHS Confederation, say it is true

26:11

there is a longer waiting list for elected care in

26:13

Wales with a proportion of the population in England. Take

26:16

education, PISA 2023, reading scores for Wales,

26:18

particularly Paul with a mean sitting 10

26:21

points below the OECD average, 30 points

26:24

below England and Scotland. This is a result

26:26

of 20 years of your administration. Before

26:29

the pandemic on education, Wales was the

26:31

only nation seeing rising standards in literacy

26:33

and numeracy within the UK PISA outcomes.

26:35

We've seen a really

26:37

challenging period following the pandemic

26:39

and we know there's more to do.

26:41

So, you know, my new

26:44

education secretary is determined to have a relentless

26:46

focus on raising standards in your party. You

26:48

have had 20 years of business in your

26:50

party. 20 years. But this is my point

26:52

around seeing a rise in standards have taken

26:54

place before the pandemic and what we do

26:56

now. And so in all of

26:59

this, I'm really keen to look at what we

27:01

do to look at how we improve outcomes for

27:03

children and young people. It's also my leadership picture

27:05

was clear about the first 1000 days in a

27:08

child's life because that's where you can

27:11

have the biggest investment and the biggest

27:13

return. So I know there'll be criticism.

27:15

I know that people will want to try to

27:18

have a go at Wales and they're run up to the general

27:20

election. I'm confident that we can both

27:22

not just stand up for our record and why

27:25

we've made choices, but we can actually

27:27

deliver a better future if we have two

27:29

Labour governments working in partnership

27:32

with the future of Wales and

27:34

the future of Britain. With it, it's also

27:36

some regrets to you that you began your

27:38

period as First Minister, which obviously must be

27:40

tremendously exciting and as you say, an exhilarating

27:42

time. But obviously there were, there's

27:44

a controversy around funding and funding for

27:46

your campaign. You accepted £200,000 during

27:50

your leadership campaign from a company run by

27:52

a man who has convicted twice from environmental

27:54

offences. Again, probably not much point relitigating all

27:56

of that. But what did you learn

27:58

from that? reform of

28:00

these things in terms of funding, party funding and

28:02

so on, leadership campaigns and so on. I

28:06

think the challenge is, if you want

28:08

to change a resolution, what are you going to change

28:10

them to? I've complied with all

28:12

the rules set by not just the party

28:15

but the Senate and indeed the Electoral Commission.

28:17

If you want to change those rules, have

28:19

a debate and change wherever one understands how

28:21

that's done. For me though, you have to

28:25

acknowledge that political parties raising their

28:27

own money means that there is

28:29

a relationship between money and politics.

28:31

What I've always been clear about

28:34

is that I have not surrendered any kind

28:36

of policy initiative for people to contribute. But

28:38

people have accused you of so doing. Because

28:40

in 2016, you asked for resources, Wales,

28:45

to ease restrictions on Atlantic recycling, a firm

28:47

run by the guy who gave you the

28:49

money. So you can understand, of course you

28:51

deny any impropriety, but the perception you can

28:53

understand is there. But that is always the

28:56

problem, isn't it? If people make... Well it

28:58

wouldn't be if you gave the money back.

29:00

No, people who make baseless accusations don't

29:02

need to then stand those up. I'm

29:05

a constituency member, it's my job to represent

29:07

my constituents, I've always done that and I'll

29:09

carry on doing that as well. If

29:12

you look at what I am promising to do,

29:14

not just in my manifesto

29:16

but in the future, I'm very clear

29:18

there'll be tougher penalties for environmental polluters

29:21

I want, and nature positive

29:23

approach to see restoration, and

29:25

I want to see us take economic opportunity that

29:27

doesn't need to cost the future. And that's quite

29:29

personal for me because not just where I live,

29:31

I think about my son, I

29:34

think about the future we're creating for

29:36

him and his classmates,

29:39

and how we make sure there's a decent

29:41

economic future for them, but also the world

29:43

around them isn't compromised by the choices that

29:45

we carry on making. We played you,

29:47

something the Prime Minister said, which was critical of you.

29:49

I suppose I should just give you this opportunity to

29:51

maybe be a bit critical of him. I don't know

29:53

if you heard this, but this is how the Prime

29:55

Minister responded to the same last caller at

29:58

the very beginning of the conversation. Louise

30:00

is in the Rhonda Valley and you're through to the Prime Minister. Go

30:02

ahead, Louise. Morning to you. Good morning,

30:04

Nick. Good morning, Prime Minister. Hi, Rhonda. Louise

30:06

in the Rhonda Valley. Oh, Louise. Hi, sorry, Louise.

30:08

Louise in the Rhonda Valley. Louise, hi. Do

30:11

you think the Prime Minister knows where the Rhonda Valley is,

30:13

First Minister? No.

30:15

And look, I think part of the

30:18

prime minister's problem is he

30:20

does not understand what normal life is like. In

30:23

a normal life, for the people listening to the

30:25

show, for working people, whether in middle Britain or

30:27

people less well off, he doesn't know what it's

30:30

like to struggle to pay them always. He doesn't

30:32

know what it's like to actually walk your child

30:34

to school to think about what the quality of

30:36

local services looks like. So someone who's out of

30:38

touch, when there are big challenges for the country...

30:40

Have you had many dealings with him? I've had

30:43

one telephone call with him. To be fair, it

30:45

was a perfectly polite telephone call

30:47

after I'd become the first minister. He was...

30:49

The challenge then, though, is getting the teeth

30:51

off what's going to change and be different.

30:54

Are we going to have a different relationship or

30:56

are we still going to have the

30:58

aggressive approach, curtling across what we're doing?

31:00

And he was polite in the call,

31:02

but I'd like to see a change in approach, but

31:05

I'm not going to bet your mortgage or mine on

31:07

it, Lewis. Finally first minister, and there you've got

31:09

to go. As I say, it must be very exciting becoming

31:12

first minister of your country, and

31:14

you must be thinking so much about the possibilities

31:16

ahead. Let's assume you're first minister for a long

31:18

time. How will Wales be different

31:22

at the end of your term of office by comparison

31:24

at the start? I would

31:26

like us to have a

31:28

better future for children

31:30

and young people to be more confident

31:32

that they can be successfully, socially

31:35

and economically, within Wales. So your pride

31:37

in your country isn't something you wear

31:39

when you've moved abroad, but it's actually

31:42

what you're helping to create here in

31:44

Wales. To be better off,

31:46

economically successful, and to be fairer as

31:49

well. And I really want people to

31:51

have more confidence in who we are

31:53

and who we can be. The

31:55

football song that has been taken off by

31:58

the men and women's team, Amahid. After

32:00

that, we're still here, despite everything and everyone,

32:02

we're still here. I'm much

32:04

more interested in Beth Nessa. What's

32:06

next? What do we want to do

32:09

in our future? And I hope at the end of my

32:11

time in office as first minister, people

32:13

look back and say the country is more

32:15

confident. We have ambition that is

32:17

grounded on what we've achieved. We're not apologizing for

32:19

who we are. And actually,

32:21

more people are confident about the

32:23

future we've created here in Wales

32:25

in a fairer and more economically

32:28

prosperous country. It's an absolute pleasure

32:30

to talk to you. Thanks so much for coming and

32:32

seeing us here at the news agents. We'll come and

32:34

see you in Cardiff Bay soon, I'm sure. That would

32:36

be fantastic. I look forward to seeing you again. This

32:39

is the news agents. Well

32:52

that was fascinating, an extraordinary journey. And

32:54

more than that, a few glimpses into

32:56

the political world to come. The devolution

32:59

settlement has been the biggest constitutional change

33:01

in our country, save Brexit for the

33:03

past 30 years. It

33:05

feels especially unstable at the moment

33:07

with Westminster and Holyrood in particular

33:09

chafing at the other. But don't

33:12

assume that the relationship between a

33:14

Labour government in Westminster and a

33:16

Labour administration in Cardiff will be

33:18

smooth. In fact, in a world

33:20

where Welsh Labour wants more money,

33:22

can no longer blame the Tories for

33:25

their funding difficulties, that relationship between Starma

33:27

and Gethin could become a difficult one.

33:29

A more assertive Wales, a source of

33:32

dissent in the Labour family. It could

33:34

just perhaps be a big part of

33:36

the politics to come. That

33:39

is it from all of us for this week. No

33:41

John or Emily this Friday of course. It is Grand

33:43

National weekend and their 16 crab is down by now.

33:45

If in between trips to corals you have some time,

33:47

remember you can catch up on all our shows from

33:49

this week on Global Player and send us story tips

33:51

and feedback to newsagents.com. Thanks to our

33:54

production team on the newsagents Gabriel Radis,

33:56

Laura Fitzpatrick, Georgia Foxwell, Alex Barnet, Rory

33:58

Simon, and and Shane Fennerly and Arvin

34:00

Badewell. Our editor is Tom Hughes. It's

34:02

presented by Emily Maitless, John Sople and

34:05

me, Lewis Goodall. And talking of John,

34:07

we are marking a very

34:09

special week on the show. And that

34:11

is that we have gone a whole

34:13

week, you may have noticed, an entire

34:15

five days of a John Sople holiday,

34:17

and yet the great man himself has

34:19

not appeared on the show a

34:22

single time. Even he, apparently, couldn't find

34:24

anywhere to stick his microphone in the

34:26

cotswolds this week. But we couldn't let

34:29

the week pass without hearing,

34:31

at least once, those dulcet tones.

34:33

So here, by no popular demand

34:36

whatsoever, are his best bits. Boob

34:38

Jobs, Butt Lifts and Botox. We'll

34:40

see you Monday. Have a lovely weekend.