0:02

This is a Global Player

0:04

original podcast. Well first of

0:06

all, can I reassure the honourable gentleman

0:08

that I am not about to defect

0:10

to the opposition ventures. They

0:12

wouldn't be interested in me. I'm too left

0:14

wing. That

0:18

was Penny Mordent, the leader of the

0:20

Commons. Now normally when you lose one

0:22

of your MPs, you feel sullen, chippy,

0:25

irritated, insecure at what has

0:28

happened. But the Tories seem

0:30

to be strangely cock-a-hoop. Whereas

0:33

Labour, who should be gloating

0:35

and glowing, are feeling kind

0:37

of uncomfortable about their new

0:40

arrival from Dover. It was

0:42

such a shock to see Natalie

0:44

Elphick, the Tory Dover MP, cross

0:47

the floor just before Prime Minister's questions. And

0:49

when I say shock, I don't just mean

0:51

for us, I mean for the

0:53

Labour Party as a whole. So

0:55

today we're going to give you

0:57

a bit more reaction from the

0:59

Labour Parliamentary Party, who is still

1:02

scratching their heads about what on

1:04

earth Keir Starmer has just done.

1:06

Welcome to the News Agents. The

1:11

News Agents. It's Jon. It's

1:13

Emily. And we're going

1:15

to try really, really hard not to

1:17

swear today because we got told off

1:19

by Vicky. Vicky, I am so sorry

1:21

that there was no bad language warning

1:23

at the front of the podcast and

1:25

your kids apparently were rather gleeful that

1:28

we were being a little bit loose

1:30

with our language. Also the Shadow

1:32

Chancellor as well, I should say, Rachel Reeves. I think

1:34

more of the bad language over the last 24 hours

1:37

has probably come from parts of

1:39

the Labour benches, including the Labour

1:41

front benches in parts, who were

1:43

just trying to work

1:46

out whether this was a master

1:48

stroke or a massive own

1:50

goal on the part of Keir

1:52

Starmer. And I guess to put the

1:54

plus side for what he's done, you know, this

1:56

was sold to me by a shadow minister who said,

1:58

look, Last night, the

2:02

TV news bulletins were leading on

2:04

millions of people hearing a message that Labour

2:07

is stronger on borders and defence than the

2:09

Tories and that the Tory party is

2:11

falling apart. No need for gimmicks like

2:14

mugs or bad policy or far-fetched

2:16

rhetoric, just a simple and credible message

2:18

from an extraordinary message carrier. I think

2:20

extraordinary message carriers, probably one of the

2:23

nicer things that Natalie Elphick will

2:25

be called today. So yes, I can

2:27

see how if you just want

2:29

that amazing headline, somebody to tell, you

2:32

know, the evening bulletins that Labour is now the

2:34

place for defence and borders, you've

2:36

encapsulated it in that one moment.

2:39

But I do think the ramifications for

2:41

this will not go away because she

2:43

touches on so many issues that so

2:46

many in her new party find deeply

2:48

unpalatable. Her response to female

2:50

victims of sexual assault, her response

2:53

to workers who are fired at

2:55

P&O, her response to kids'

2:57

families who remember Marcus Rashford as the

2:59

hero who got the school

3:02

dinners round, and actually who were

3:04

still asking questions about

3:06

how on earth she took

3:08

over her husband's parliamentary seat

3:11

in a process which was, let's

3:13

just say, not remotely transparent. So

3:15

the headlines would have been everything

3:17

that you would dream of on

3:19

a day one. You know, we

3:22

used to talk about budgets delivered

3:24

by chancellors where on day one,

3:26

they look absolutely fantastic. And then

3:28

something comes unpicked, the Cornish

3:31

pasty, and it all starts to

3:33

unravel and becomes an omnishambles. And

3:36

I'm not saying this is going to follow that

3:38

trajectory. But what looked like the shiniest, that

3:40

are too clever by half surprise at

3:43

12 o'clock yesterday afternoon, when Natalie Elphick

3:45

takes her seat behind Kia Thama, and

3:47

everyone goes, Oh, my God, what's just

3:50

happened here? I think

3:52

with the passing of time, it will come to look

3:54

a little bit weirder. So we

3:56

were both at a thing last night, a speech given

3:58

by the former foreign David

4:00

Miliband and I was speaking to

4:02

someone who had worked very closely with Blair in

4:05

the run-up to 97

4:07

when of course they were trying to woo

4:09

Rupert Murdoch they were trying to win over

4:11

the Daily Mail they were trying to win

4:13

over disaffected Tories and the thing that

4:15

this guy said to me was he said be careful what

4:17

you wish for and be careful who

4:19

you wish for and I thought

4:21

there was something very sanitary in that like

4:23

whoa I mean Natalie Elphick is

4:26

a complicated person to be welcoming

4:28

on to the Labour benches even if she's

4:30

only going to be an MP for the

4:32

next six weeks I was looking back to

4:35

when a former Tory minister resigned

4:37

before the 97 elections a guy

4:39

called Alan Haworth who'd been the

4:41

MP for Stratford-upon-Avon and he

4:43

defects to Labour but there was an

4:45

eight-week quarantine period before he could take

4:47

the Labour whip before you could take

4:49

your rabies with you yeah exactly and

4:51

I you just wonder whether I wonder

4:53

whether Labour's current chief whip is wishing

4:55

there was an eight-week quarantine period to

4:57

see whether we think this is a

4:59

wise thing to happen or not

5:02

because I'm thinking that there are an awful lot of Labour MPs

5:04

who are kind of thinking yeah are we

5:06

sure about this I agree and I think

5:08

for a party that has constantly castigated

5:10

the Prime Minister for performative

5:13

politics this was a

5:15

gimmick this was performative they have

5:17

no love for Natalie Elphick she has

5:20

delivered one message on one night and

5:22

I think they'll probably cast her adrift

5:24

after that and you can either say well

5:26

we got what we wanted out of it or else

5:28

you can say that's really

5:31

cynical and it's sort of the worst

5:33

kind of politics yeah she's

5:35

been a member of the ERG she'd

5:37

been a member of the right-wing campaigning

5:39

group the European research group which was

5:41

on the extreme Brexiteer wing of the

5:44

Conservative Party she wants to take the

5:46

country out of the European Convention on

5:48

Human Rights normally you have

5:50

to dig really hard to find the

5:52

sort of policy dirt that makes it

5:55

quite a bad fit with Natalie Elphick

5:57

it's all out there I mean it's

5:59

absolutely out there baking in

6:01

the sun for anyone to see. Well

6:03

that was something else that was said to me by

6:05

someone else I spoke to last night was

6:08

that Kistama wants to show I

6:11

am ambitious, I am going

6:13

to win, nothing is going to

6:15

stop me, I will do whatever is necessary,

6:17

if this gives me a few days good

6:19

headlines of Labour looking electable and

6:21

if you just think about the penny morden

6:24

clip. That's what you want. Perfect. Yeah

6:26

you can pay for that. If you wanted

6:28

to reassure conservatives that the Labour Party under

6:30

Kistama is a safe space, Penny

6:32

Morden has done the heavy lifting for you.

6:34

Penny Morden used the same voice that she

6:37

used when she described Liz Truss as not

6:39

hiding under a desk. Same

6:42

look which suggests she knows she's going to

6:44

be quite funny. Yeah quite funny. But

6:46

I don't think Labour MPs are laughing.

6:48

I think Labour MPs, Labour activists will

6:51

be feeling deeply uncomfortable about it. Well

6:53

actually he's allowed them to say what

6:55

about Diane Abbott, what about Jeremy Corbyn?

6:57

All these questions now feel

7:00

absolutely valid and justified. What

7:02

about you know if Jeremy Corbyn wanted

7:04

to join the Tory party what would she

7:06

see an exe? I mean would he get it? No thanks.

7:09

I think so. And if we were

7:11

to have plead again two days ago

7:13

and said Natalie Elphick is going to

7:15

defect, where is she going to defect

7:17

to? Is it going to be reform

7:20

or is it going to be the Labour Party? I

7:22

think both of us would have said reform. Yeah we

7:24

should be joining the land. And surprise

7:26

surprise she's joined the Labour Party. Although

7:28

reform is a really good fit isn't

7:30

it? Well given to some of the

7:32

passing she's you know said and been

7:34

part of the ERG but on immigration

7:36

actually she has been more nuanced doesn't

7:39

she? In fairness to Natalie Elphick that

7:41

she has talked about the importance of the

7:43

role that diplomacy plays in all of this.

7:45

Yeah I think. And it's not just a

7:47

question of pushing back the boats and just

7:49

stopping the boats like that. I think she

7:52

understood that the gimmick of just stopping boats

7:54

in itself is not going to cure the

7:56

problem. Well yeah okay yes I mean she has

7:58

been on the front line as we

8:00

know, is one of the places where most of

8:02

the small boats will come, will land. So

8:04

presumably, she knows better than anyone the

8:06

kind of tragedies that are unfolding on

8:08

their beaches there. What she

8:11

has said is, Rishi Sinak's not

8:13

got a grip on this. And she has talked

8:15

about David Cameron having the right approach to diplomacy,

8:18

i.e. working better with the French, working better

8:20

with European neighbours to solve it.

8:22

But that doesn't really sit well

8:24

then with being a very arch-Brexiter

8:27

who clearly was going to throw diplomacy

8:29

up in the air to get

8:31

what we thought of as our own sovereignty

8:33

and not work with countries on this issue

8:36

primarily. And it also doesn't square with wanting

8:38

to leave the European Convention on Human Rights.

8:41

I don't think there is enough consistency

8:43

to say, oh, she has a cunning

8:45

plan here, and she's going to share it with

8:47

Kia Stama. I'm not sure that's where we're at. Hang

8:49

on, we've got some breaking news actually from

8:51

Natalie Elphick. A statement has just been issued

8:54

which says, and I'll read it out, the

8:56

period of 2017 to 2020 was an incredibly

9:00

stressful and difficult one for me as I

9:02

learned more about the person I thought I

9:04

knew. And this is obviously about her husband.

9:06

I know it was far harder for the

9:08

women who had to relive their experiences and

9:10

give evidence against him. I have

9:12

previously and do condemn his behaviour towards

9:14

other women and towards me. It

9:17

was right that he was prosecuted and

9:19

I'm sorry for the comments that I

9:21

made about his victims. And

9:24

that follows the kind of rather kind of,

9:26

well, he was a good looking guy, that's

9:29

what happens. We're joined in

9:31

the studio now by Baroness Chakravarti.

9:33

Shammy. Shammy Chakravarti. I was just

9:35

giving you the full title. Thank you. I

9:37

wonder whether you feel that statement goes

9:39

some way to reassuring. It

9:42

does go some way and it doesn't

9:44

surprise me. There was obviously more to her

9:46

story than the comments made at

9:48

the time. And I guess she sadly

9:51

won't be the first or the last

9:53

woman to have defended

9:56

her husband in a way

9:58

that Subsequently. Create

10:00

to be indefensible. Oh, come on,

10:02

Tell. Me: this is a bit of a shit, so is

10:04

it. I mean. When you look at what

10:06

she said at the time, Yeah, I

10:08

mean when you look at not just

10:11

what she said, but how she basically

10:13

said that he had been dragged through

10:15

the mud because women were playing dirty

10:17

politics. When she then went to take

10:19

his seat, we don't even understand the

10:21

mechanism by which See then took over

10:23

his parliamentary seat up that was never

10:25

transparent and what? Sorry, she hasn't apologized

10:27

for coming home for six years and

10:29

then the day after this, you know,

10:31

headlines. Abbas. It somebody from labour clearly

10:34

push start. They went apologize celebrating

10:36

the it's an unusual. A new I

10:38

really think should happen. or maybe it should have

10:40

happened. As a preference

10:42

to the drummer sick the irresistibly

10:44

dramatic to as Pm teased maybe

10:46

the better approach would has been

10:48

and could still be so Her

10:50

for example to do a broadcast

10:52

interview with for example a trusted

10:54

neutral journalists who isn't going to

10:56

only her in south Side the

10:58

head that is gonna ask difficult

11:00

questions and gifford the opportunities to

11:02

answer then I have to believe

11:04

it's in my nature. it's will.

11:06

I believe that people are capable

11:08

of changing their minds and changing

11:11

their. Hearts. Not just about. The.

11:13

Crimes of that you love you on the

11:15

dial. Holik that with her from on Tuesday

11:17

of this week that case I was vaguely

11:19

on Defense and Borders know the rest of

11:21

us has somehow had this doesn't seem to

11:23

vs. Owes you know thing though is that

11:25

I know You know. I don't know. I

11:27

don't know. I'd have to believe that some

11:29

conversations has been going on between. Must the

11:32

L Six on the leadership has a Labour

11:34

party? Am I want to hear more about

11:36

her journey a lot? or that I were

11:38

with percent? That's the way with the head.

11:41

Of I just wanted him at this

11:43

from slightly be appealed and you just

11:45

said something along the lines would rather

11:47

better problem having that big dramatic moment

11:49

if someone had instituted that it into

11:51

the using the labour leadership of mishandled

11:53

us. I. Think. I'd

11:56

love watching for his yes, Yes,

11:59

but it's not too late I don't

12:01

believe in the zero-sum game in the

12:03

politics of personal destruction. What

12:05

I really want to say is

12:07

if there is room in the

12:09

parliamentary Labour Party for a changed

12:11

Natalie Elthich bring back Diane Abbott

12:14

today. And presumably Jeremy

12:16

Corbyn who's also been suspended. Well

12:19

if he wants to come out and

12:21

look. Well you know he does. Well

12:23

absolutely. So you'd be

12:25

happy to have Corbyn back. Of course

12:27

if we're talking about a big tent

12:29

then a big tent has

12:31

more than one corner or a broad

12:33

church has at least two walls probably

12:36

four walls. How big is your tent?

12:38

Is there any sort of rubicon that

12:40

you wouldn't cross? Is there anyone in

12:42

the Conservative Party? Of course. Who?

12:47

The values that I hold

12:50

most dear are the values

12:52

of rights, freedoms and the rule of

12:54

law that I've written a book

12:56

about. But you know that that is where I

12:58

come from. That is my journey. Your book is

13:00

called, let's bring it in, Human Rights, The Case

13:02

for the Defence. And your party

13:04

has just welcomed in a woman who

13:07

thinks we should be leaving the ECHR

13:09

and who. Well that's why

13:11

I'm interested in hearing more from her. I

13:13

really want to know. I'm not prepared to

13:15

set myself up as judge and jury over

13:17

somebody who's not even going to be standing

13:20

as a candidate as I understand it at the

13:22

next election. So in a sense she's voted with

13:24

her feet. She's going to be voting Labour at

13:26

the next election. But in a sense, Jeremy, dare

13:28

I say, this is not really about Natalie Alphick.

13:30

It's about the Labour

13:33

leader's judgement on this one. Whether

13:35

he's actually going for gimmicks, whether

13:37

he's going for headlines, whether he's going

13:39

for performative politics, because it puts a

13:41

smile on everyone's face to surprise

13:44

everyone for half an hour on a

13:46

Wednesday lunch time in the House of Commons. Well that's why

13:48

I say the proof will be in

13:50

the pudding. And in a sense

13:53

it's for you and your colleagues to test

13:55

the pudding when the interviews and the interviews

13:57

are going to be done. They

14:00

have any any minute should be let you

14:02

speak to. These. People over

14:04

time your in touch with the Labour leadership officer

14:06

in touch with also speak for the Whips office.

14:09

Of the war. Is the reaction voice the

14:11

ceiling? Tell us what the ceiling is In

14:13

The Parliamentary Labour Party for some. People If

14:16

we know that some people are surprise

14:18

and something as I never allowed. To

14:20

wear? Okay. Second, Okay, let me quite Neil

14:22

Kinnock. In. I'm just a member

14:24

of the Paris and he was

14:26

a former leader of the Church

14:28

right and he says we've gotta

14:30

be we got a second seized

14:32

in a even a broad church

14:34

has it's limits as I suspect

14:36

that his position will be reflected

14:38

by lot of people in the

14:40

Parliamentary Labour Party's well I say

14:42

is I want to hear what

14:44

the change is A wants to

14:46

hear from the smartly l sit

14:48

with her to speeches issued a

14:50

statement about the remarks that she

14:53

made. In the things that she did

14:55

in relation to her ex husband, I want

14:57

to him more about the politics of this.

14:59

I want to know this does She really

15:01

wants supporter of the A Chr and mushy

15:04

mushy suffer in the past? What to see

15:06

snow activities less wishy sooner has no. It's

15:08

actually been tough on. Stopping.

15:11

The boats. And I think she's writes about

15:13

the i don't want desperate people tough to

15:15

get into unseaworthy vessels I wouldn't have safe

15:17

routes and the I'm and claim asylum in

15:19

the Uk. What does she say about that

15:21

Now what is the conversation at What Is

15:23

The Journey Will Utterly she said that she

15:25

thinks. That diplomacy should be used to

15:28

help solve the immigration crisis. Most he

15:30

writes about that but she voted for

15:32

very hard breaks it which may diplomacy

15:34

with a European neighbors much much harder.

15:37

I mean, it's the political equivalent of Russell

15:39

Brand. Getting baptized in the Thames is Not.

15:42

A good enough doing it it is. So try

15:44

getting belief that people in the Labour party should

15:46

suddenly be sitting here sakes of give her a

15:48

child. Some so she's very very change.

15:50

will i don't know i just want

15:53

to hear i'm just not prepared to

15:55

damn this woman until i heard her

15:57

tell her story about why it is

16:00

that she's changed her mind. I

16:02

think, Stan, she should not be in the

16:04

Labour Party until you get that clarification. No, no,

16:06

I'm not saying that because apart from anything

16:08

else, when you're trying

16:11

to win an election, you

16:13

are asking people who have voted conservative,

16:15

some of them for many

16:18

years to change their minds. You

16:21

are trying to make common cause with

16:23

them. You are trying to persuade them.

16:25

That is the business of democratic mass

16:27

movement politics because I'm not Elon Musk.

16:30

I don't wield power and influence because

16:32

of my millions and billions of pounds

16:34

or dollars. So the way that you do

16:36

mass movement democratic politics, if you try

16:38

to reach out and you try to

16:40

change people's minds, however I agree with

16:42

you, there has to be some red

16:44

lines. There has to be

16:46

some values. If you take the previous

16:49

defection last week, Dan Poulter, I pretty

16:51

much cheered that one because I know

16:53

from having made common cause with him

16:55

during the pandemic that he supported

16:57

the trips waiver that would have

16:59

allowed the global south to be

17:01

vaccinated in numbers and

17:04

it would have saved many, many lives during the

17:06

pandemic. Yeah, many didn't know this reaction. What do

17:08

you think it was about her 17% chance

17:10

of winning her seat at the next election

17:12

that first made her... Well, I'm not

17:14

sure, but at the same time, I

17:16

understand she's not seeking to stand again,

17:18

which puts her in a way a

17:20

bit more like an ordinary member or

17:22

a voter. Now, I don't

17:25

think it's the best handling. I

17:27

think the interview approach would have been

17:29

better than the showstopping. Has anyone had

17:31

that conversation with Kirstal Murphy? I

17:34

haven't, but I suspect other people

17:36

have. It's certainly been reflected in

17:38

some of the punditry and even

17:40

the left leaning commentary this morning.

17:42

I mean, as I say, my

17:44

priority is, okay, so a change.

17:46

Obviously, Elphick is now welcome in

17:49

the Labour Party. What about my

17:51

friend, Diane Abbott, who served the

17:53

Labour Party? Well, I feel particularly strongly about Diane.

18:00

absolute priority today, but the point you make,

18:02

whether it's Jeremy Corbyn or, you know, if

18:04

you're building a broad church, you measure the

18:06

breadth of that church from one wall to

18:08

the other. You're

18:11

talking about human rights. Yeah.

18:13

Keir Starmer's made it very

18:15

clear that the Rwanda policy

18:17

would end. He's

18:19

talked about the need to rework

18:23

or rethink our relationships with

18:25

France. Is the

18:27

unspoken bit now that

18:29

we are going to have to have much

18:31

closer ties with Europe again to

18:34

solve the immigration crisis? I

18:36

think it's unspoken, spoken, logical, inevitable.

18:38

It isn't spoken. Well, I'm saying

18:40

that I believe we have to

18:43

have closer ties with not just

18:45

our nearest neighbors, but at the

18:47

international level too, to cope humanely

18:49

and effectively with the biggest refugee

18:52

crisis since World War II. We

18:54

also, and I suggest this in my

18:56

book, need to have more internationalism, not

18:59

more nationalism, if we're going to cope

19:01

with the other big challenges that we

19:03

face on the planet today,

19:05

namely AI, war and

19:08

climate emergency. And therefore it is

19:10

particularly baffling to me that my

19:13

fellow children of migrants, Rishi Sunak

19:15

and Suela Braverman and so on,

19:17

want to turn inwards, want

19:20

to pull up the drawbridges, want

19:22

to rip up values

19:24

and conventions that their previous generation

19:26

of conservatives, actually, as much as

19:28

anybody else, worked so hard to

19:31

achieve in that special, special moment

19:33

after World War II. Are

19:35

you comfortable saying that about children of immigrants?

19:38

I mean, do you feel that they

19:41

haven't talked particularly about

19:43

their immigrant past? Oh, they do

19:45

invoke their parents. Suela

19:47

Braverman and Rishi Sunak have invoked. I guess

19:50

they can choose how they... We

19:52

all get to invoke our journey. The reason why I think

19:54

it's relevant, by the way, and I'm not saying that anybody

19:56

should be judged more or less harshly

19:58

because of either parents. and the

20:01

reason why I think it's relevant is this. Some

20:03

people know better. When I

20:06

see the antipathy towards vulnerable

20:08

minorities and particular refugees, I

20:10

think a lot of it comes from

20:12

ignorance and fear, but when

20:15

you have been, like me, the

20:17

child of migrants, you know

20:19

better because you sat around

20:21

your dinner table and your kitchen table

20:23

with your parents, they experienced racism, you

20:25

experienced racism. You know better. Ignorance

20:30

is no defense there, and that's

20:32

why it breaks my heart. I'm

20:34

just disappointed. I'm just so disappointed

20:36

that these very highly educated fellow

20:38

Britons who have benefited

20:40

from internationalism so much, not least

20:43

in their educations, they went to

20:45

places like the Sorbonne and Stanford

20:47

University, and the product of that

20:49

brilliant elite internationalist education, it pulled

20:52

up the drawbridge, pulled out of the ECHR.

20:55

I find it really sad and disappointing.

20:58

Just I want to ask you about the meeting

21:00

that is taking place between the Prime Minister and

21:02

Vice-Chancellors about antisemitism on

21:04

campuses. A lot of

21:07

Jewish students, you know Jewish students,

21:09

feel they're a vulnerable minority at

21:11

the moment. I totally

21:13

understand that, and it's

21:15

always really, really dangerous to be

21:17

blaming, whether it's blaming British

21:20

Muslims after 9-11, or

21:22

blaming Jewish students because of what

21:25

I believe to be a disproportionate

21:27

and counterproductive and inhumane

21:29

response by Mr. Netanyahu after the

21:31

atrocity that was October the 7th.

21:34

You know that's always a danger, and it's absolutely

21:36

wrong. But I would also point out there are

21:39

a lot of Jewish students and Jewish people who

21:42

have been demonstrating against a disproportionate

21:44

response in Gaza too. A lot. A

21:47

lot. So let's not ever think that

21:49

any community is totally speaking as one.

21:52

You can't ally though, I mean I

21:54

hope I'm sure you're not, but you

21:56

can't ally the Jewish people who are

21:59

part of those protests. with the

22:01

anti-Semitism that students are feeling on the... No,

22:04

no, no, no. No, what

22:06

I'm saying is it is

22:08

anti-Semitic to blame somebody for

22:11

a decision by Mr Netanyahu just

22:13

because they're Jewish, but it is

22:15

also prejudiced to assume that there

22:18

aren't many Jewish people who are involved in

22:20

these protests as well. And the crucial thing

22:23

is universities owe a duty of care to

22:25

all their students, and I would say in

22:28

respect and in solidarity with students who

22:30

want to protest that they have a responsibility

22:32

to take care of their fellow students

22:34

and to demonstrate their values. And does

22:36

that mean shutting them down if they

22:38

think they're getting out of hand? Well,

22:40

no, of course, if somebody is putting

22:42

their fellow students in fear, if they

22:44

are abusing them, then they must be

22:46

dealt with, and they must be dealt

22:48

with in a cheap way. And what about just the

22:51

intimidating nature of protests? Well,

22:53

you know, protest outside of synagogue or protest on

22:55

the campus. Well, I think... Well, I

22:57

mean, OK, so the example of protest outside of

22:59

synagogue, I think that that is inappropriate because

23:02

why should a synagogue is not

23:04

an embassy? A synagogue is not

23:06

an institution of any state. The

23:09

thing about the right to protest is

23:11

it's not an absolute right. It's a

23:13

vital right in any democracy, but it

23:15

can be subject to limitations to protect

23:17

the vulnerable, to protect other people. There's

23:20

an element of proportionality and

23:22

common sense that in the

23:24

first instance, people have to

23:26

exercise ethically and morally because

23:28

human rights aren't just about laws. They

23:30

govern our ethics and our behavior ourselves.

23:32

And what I want from the student

23:35

movement and protest movements is for them to

23:37

be their better selves and to demonstrate their

23:39

values even as they protest. Shall we

23:42

check our party? Thank you very much. Thank

23:44

you. This

23:53

is The News Agents. The

23:58

whole world is holding its breath right now. to

24:00

see if those anticipated first

24:02

signs of a ceasefire that we

24:04

were hearing about on Sunday night

24:07

could ever turn into something

24:09

real between Israel and Gaza.

24:12

And last night we had news

24:14

that President Biden had

24:17

warned Israel's Prime Minister Netanyahu

24:19

that he would halt supplies

24:21

of heavy bombs and artillery

24:23

shells if Israel did choose to

24:25

go ahead with a military invasion

24:27

of Rafa. He said,

24:29

this is Biden, I'm not providing the

24:32

weapons. It is the clearest

24:34

sign yet, it is the most

24:36

simple of language yet, that

24:39

there is a line that

24:41

Netanyahu cannot cross

24:43

militarily and that America,

24:45

it seems, is

24:47

prepared to put its money where its

24:50

mouth is and say, no

24:52

more arms to Israel if

24:54

Rafa is bombed. And

24:56

you can't exaggerate what a moment this

24:58

is, because since the foundation of the

25:00

state of Israel in 1948, it has

25:03

been bipartisan policy in

25:06

the United States that the one democracy

25:08

in the Middle East, namely Israel, will

25:10

be supported by the

25:12

US. So for the US president

25:15

to sign up and say, we're not

25:17

going to supply weapons, is quite a moment. Now, it

25:20

needs conceptualizing there's more nuance to it than that, because

25:22

of course, Israel's right to self

25:24

defense, America is still supporting.

25:26

So reinforcements for the Iron Dome missile

25:28

defense system, yes, that's all fine. I

25:31

mean, that was all part of the

25:33

96 billion dollars package

25:35

that Congress signed up last month. But as

25:37

you say, these 2000 pound bombs, the

25:40

artillery shells that were apparently

25:42

on their way to Israel are

25:44

being halted for the time being.

25:47

But it's also led to a political row

25:49

in Washington, no surprise there. But

25:51

Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the

25:53

House Republican and very Trumpian

25:55

in a lot of ways, has

25:58

been working quite closely with the US. administration

26:00

on getting this aid package to

26:02

Israel. And he has said, he

26:05

was assured the day before

26:08

by senior administration officials in

26:10

this confidential call, which he

26:12

had to take in what

26:14

they call a SCIF, a

26:17

secure compartmentalised information facility, that

26:20

there was no change in policy, that the

26:22

weapons were going to be supplied. And he

26:24

said, you know, 24 hours ago,

26:26

it was confirmed to me by top

26:28

administration official that the policies no different

26:30

than what we thought it was. So

26:33

I hope it's not a senior moment by

26:36

Joe Biden. That's what Mike Johnson has said.

26:38

Because Joe Biden made these comments in an

26:40

interview. He doesn't do that many

26:42

interviews. So it is possible

26:44

that he wanted to sound stronger within

26:47

the context of an interview, then maybe

26:49

he had to, you know, those around

26:51

him or those across the aisle in

26:54

other languages. Well, you judge for yourself whether

26:56

you think this is a senior moment or

26:58

not by Biden. This is him speaking to

27:00

Erin Burnett from CNN. I want to ask

27:02

you about something happening as we sit here and speak.

27:04

And that, of course, is Israel

27:06

is striking Rafa. I know that you

27:08

have paused, Mr. President, shipments of 2000

27:11

pound US bombs to

27:13

Israel due to concern that they could

27:15

be used in any offensive on Rafa.

27:18

Have those bombs, those powerful

27:21

2000 pound bombs, been used to

27:23

kill civilians in Gaza? Civilians

27:26

have been killed in Gaza. The consequences

27:28

of those bombs and other ways

27:31

in which they go after population centers.

27:34

I made it clear that if

27:36

they go into Rafa, they haven't gone on Rafa

27:39

yet. They go into Rafa.

27:41

I'm not supplying the weapons that have been

27:43

used historically to deal with Rafa, to deal

27:46

with the cities, to deal with that problem.

27:49

We're going to continue to make sure

27:51

Israel is secure in terms of iron

27:53

dome and their ability to respond to attacks

27:55

like came out of you

27:58

in the least recent. recently,

28:01

but it's just wrong.

28:03

We're not going to supply the

28:05

weapons and artillery shells use it.

28:08

Artillery shells as well. Yeah, artillery

28:10

shells. I mean, it's quite

28:12

slow, it's very softly spoken, but I

28:14

think the language is clear there. It

28:17

is quite wrong. We're not going to supply them, right?

28:19

So that is a change of policy. So

28:21

that is a change of policy. It has

28:23

also brought Benjamin Netanyahu to say,

28:26

look, you know what, we'll go

28:28

out alone if we have to. And he has

28:30

reposted on Twitter or X

28:32

today a bit of a speech he

28:34

made where he is restating that. In

28:37

the Holocaust, the Jewish

28:39

people were totally defenseless against

28:42

those who sought our destruction. No

28:45

nation came to our aid. Today,

28:50

we again confront enemies bent on

28:52

our destruction. I

28:54

say to the leaders of the world, no

28:57

amount of pressure, no

29:00

decision by any international forum

29:03

will stop Israel from defending itself.

29:07

As the prime minister of Israel, the

29:09

one and only Jewish state, I

29:12

pledge here today from Jerusalem on

29:15

this Holocaust Remembrance Day. If

29:18

Israel is forced to stand alone, Israel

29:21

will stand alone. But

29:24

we know we are not alone because

29:26

countless decent people around the world

29:29

support our just cause. And

29:31

I'm sure the Netanyahu believes that

29:34

firmly that Israel will stand alone

29:36

in the world. And

29:38

he and his small coterie within

29:40

the Israeli government are

29:42

not going to bend. I think increasingly

29:44

though, many Israelis, many people

29:47

who want to be friends of

29:49

Israel don't want to see Israel

29:51

go alone. They do want to

29:53

see Israel forging those alliances, retaining

29:55

those alliances with America,

29:57

with a democratic president, with

30:00

international law, they don't want to

30:02

think of their government as being so

30:05

isolated that it hasn't got

30:07

any friends left. So you've

30:09

got Netanyahu in a

30:11

coalition with extreme right-wing

30:13

nationalists. Ben Gavir and Smutrich,

30:15

the two ministers who are kind of

30:18

saying, we've got to go into Rafah,

30:20

we've got to have total victory over

30:22

Hamas, doesn't matter what the costs are,

30:24

that's what we have to do to

30:26

secure Israel's safety. You

30:29

have Biden and the

30:31

power of the United States of America and

30:34

no Israeli, I mean very few Israelis would

30:36

think, fine, we'll go it alone. If America

30:38

don't want to be with us, we've got

30:40

this covered. And you've got all the hostage

30:42

families who increasingly just want

30:44

their government to start thinking

30:46

about the hostages first and not

30:48

about the destruction of parts of

30:50

Gaza that should never really have been

30:53

on the list in the first place.

30:55

The choice that Netanyahu has

30:57

not wanted to confront is

31:00

staring him in the face now. He's

31:02

either going to have to bow to the

31:04

right-wing nationalists in his government who could

31:06

bring him down and force a general

31:08

election, which has all sorts of other

31:11

consequences for Benjamin Netanyahu. As

31:13

in court cases? As in court cases and

31:15

corruption charges. Or he goes the other way and

31:18

alienates the United States of America.

31:21

And I guess at the risk of

31:23

a massive screeching handbrake turn,

31:25

we should try and extend what's

31:27

going on in the sense of

31:29

isolation to a cultural event that's

31:31

taking place this weekend, the Eurovision

31:34

Song Contest, where the Israeli entry,

31:36

and traditionally, I mean Israel takes

31:38

the Eurovision really seriously, even

31:40

if many of you listeners out there do

31:42

not. Emily, this takes it extremely seriously. I

31:45

live in a family of people who are not

31:47

allowed to speak during the songs. I have been

31:49

to your house during a Eurovision Song Contest. It's

31:51

quite painful in many ways. Anyway, Israel, several-time

31:54

winner of the contest, and

31:56

they've hosted it pretty recently,

31:58

are now finding... their own

32:01

entry facing criticism

32:03

from many

32:05

people in Europe who don't want to

32:07

see Israel taking part this

32:10

year. The song we should just put

32:12

this in context is sung by a

32:15

woman who is evoking October

32:17

the 7th and the tragedy that

32:19

happened to Israel at that time

32:22

she's not explicit, it's not

32:24

about Hamas, it's not about Gaza, it's not even

32:26

about Israel in terms of the lyrics per se

32:28

but it's clearly the sentiment of

32:30

what happened to the country that day

32:33

and there are people who

32:35

think she shouldn't be there that she

32:37

shouldn't be singing about that side of

32:39

war who don't want to see Israel

32:41

take part. Well I think the

32:43

song was originally called October Rain

32:46

it's now called Hurricane and there is no

32:48

mention of October or October the 7th in

32:50

the song but in some of the lyrics

32:52

it talks about how the moon you know

32:55

will never be the same again and how

32:57

boys will cry and you know a reference

32:59

to the soldiers and presumably the rapes and

33:01

the killings and the massacres that took place

33:03

at that music festival.

33:05

Well the uncomfortable with about it is

33:07

of course that two years ago Ukraine

33:09

comes along in the wake

33:11

of the invasion by Russia and everyone

33:13

is cheering Ukraine, Israel

33:16

comes along when it was subject I

33:18

mean you can argue the class of

33:20

this but the attack hadn't been provoked

33:22

by any specific event you could talk

33:24

about years of occupation maybe having led to

33:26

it but it was kind of October the 7th

33:29

came out of a clear sky when you

33:31

know 1,200 1,500 people are killed 100 taken hostages

33:36

that suddenly no one is cheering

33:38

for Israel for raising this and

33:40

it shows the depth of the

33:42

isolation of Israel. I also

33:44

think it raises questions about whether

33:46

we think we should be punishing

33:48

artists or tennis players or footballers

33:51

or citizens for performing

33:54

with the name of their country when they are fundamentally

33:57

artists and singers And football

33:59

players. And had his players. I mean I

34:01

would say at this point. That Russia was banned

34:03

from new A vision and Twenty Twenty Two

34:05

and it seemed like too many people? The

34:08

right response. At the time I mean that she looking

34:10

back at that. I think that was wrong because I

34:12

don't think. I. Mean, I think we understand

34:14

that Poussin is an autocrat dictator who has

34:16

positioned himself on the Russian people. I think

34:19

there were loads of people in Russia

34:21

who would be so so happy to see

34:23

Divisive. Who's not least, the parents of the

34:25

soldiers to and are being conscripted to fight

34:27

a war that they never signed up tix.

34:30

So I think really the whole. Premise.

34:32

of banning country's citizens and this is as

34:35

gonna be wrong as. Well, as

34:37

he had cultural boycott do so to

34:39

have an effect. You know there was

34:41

a longstanding cultural boycott of South Africa.

34:44

The. There is a listen your his quake in his

34:46

boot six who would have my biden but at the

34:48

your visions coming out as who who all taser. Mine

34:51

or of course the Rail Politique if it

34:53

is he's much more word about Joe Biden

34:55

the news about your vision but your vision

34:57

has been a useful place for Israel to

34:59

projected image of kind of liberal you look

35:02

at Donner International yeah you know are not

35:04

as it turns also philosophes it was for

35:06

growing up I mean I don't see us

35:08

as a of on the whole thing it

35:11

would have you know the projection of liberal

35:13

democracy and a funny kind of way of

35:15

an open society Israel was so I think

35:17

it does have soft power for Israel of

35:19

therefore to find. That your thing. I just

35:22

feel sorry for the young woman eaten. Glad

35:24

that she is going through this and having

35:26

you know she had her rehearsals and there

35:28

were people booing her and I don't think

35:30

that you can blame her for what happened.

35:33

I mean she's not responsible for happened on

35:35

Oct the seventh off what the Israeli army

35:37

has done since then. Yeah, I mean let's

35:39

not forget how many people in Israel are

35:41

vehemently against their own government as we saw

35:43

before up to. The Seventh all through

35:46

the summers. Twenty twenty three when

35:48

they were on the streets protesting

35:50

against this and Yahoo and his

35:52

policies. It

36:01

is the news agency. Said.

36:06

We were invited to a speech

36:09

be given to day by the

36:11

Foreign Secretary David Cameron on the

36:14

speech was being delivered at the

36:16

National Cyber Security Center. We

36:19

couldn't go to Sway recording the podcast,

36:21

but the journalists who did. Were

36:24

told that the security code

36:26

for the doors. Is.

36:29

One Two three, four, At

36:32

the National Cyber Security Center. Not

36:34

passwords and no not password. That's

36:37

probably the code for the Why

36:39

Fi it's as a pup is

36:41

worth one I use. Cannot make

36:43

this a soft off. I'm sorry

36:45

this isn't the week of the

36:48

Amity Hack where hundreds of thousands

36:50

of names were released or hacks.

36:53

Because. Of a failure Security as

36:55

the in the week the you're actually trying

36:57

to keep a movie I think off the

36:59

front pages you might want to see for

37:01

your post has. A way

37:04

we will be back tomorrow. Positive: Tell them

37:06

that Tell them when and where know he have

37:08

to find out if infection by. The

37:11

news agency with Emily make this John

37:13

sober and Louis good Or. Hello!

37:16

Just popping in here to tell you about

37:18

the latest episodes of the Sports Agents with

37:20

me Much Chapman. And me, Gabi like.

37:22

And today we explored the fascinating and equally

37:25

bizarre. Story of Ryan Garcia and the

37:27

latest drugs scandal to rock the sport

37:29

of boxing. It really upsets me a

37:31

little bit spit. Books. In

37:33

doesn't seem to care about

37:35

performance enhancing drugs and on.

37:37

So we change our attitudes

37:39

towards. Elite level fighters,

37:42

in particular failing drug

37:44

tests, Then. The

37:46

Sport Is it going to change? Search for

37:48

the sports agent on Global Player or wherever

37:50

you get your potus. This

37:53

is a global player Original Podcast.