2:00

Listen, we are going to talk to

2:02

and with Sean Spicer in a moment,

2:04

all about his time working as Donald

2:06

Trump's press secretary in the White House.

2:09

But we're not going to start there. We're going to

2:11

start in neither the

2:13

USA nor the UK for

2:16

this one. We are going to talk about

2:18

what's been happening in the Middle East, in

2:20

Gaza, the release of the hostages, and

2:23

try and put that into the

2:25

perspective of what we know about

2:27

the US political scene right now.

2:29

Because last week, if you were with us, we

2:32

talked about the damage that was

2:34

being done to

2:36

the coalition of Democrats that were

2:38

supporting Joe Biden, particularly amongst the

2:41

young, particularly amongst the

2:43

activist progressive young who felt that

2:45

his stance on Israel was

2:48

putting off people, people who wanted to

2:50

hear him call for a ceasefire, wanted

2:52

to hear him talk more about what

2:55

the people of Gaza were going through.

2:57

And we're now wondering whether after

2:59

the release of what, around 50

3:02

hostages, Israeli women and children from the 240

3:04

that were captured in southern Israel on October

3:06

the 7th,

3:10

whether we are now going to

3:13

see people putting Joe Biden

3:15

in a different light, one that

3:17

they will find more palatable. I think one

3:19

of the really interesting things is that we've

3:21

focused on the damage that has been done

3:23

on the Democrat side, young people, very

3:26

liberal Democrats who are very angry

3:28

with Biden over the pro-Israeli stance

3:31

that he's taken. Biden

3:33

has also been very tough with

3:35

Israel and has gone down this

3:37

path of working with the Qataris

3:39

very closely and the Qatari Prime

3:42

Minister to secure the release of

3:44

hostages. Biden is doing

3:46

everything he can. Hamas are

3:48

clever. Hamas know that

3:51

the longer there are Americans being held, that

3:53

will mean that Joe Biden is putting more

3:55

pressure on the Israelis not

3:58

to relaunch hostilities because that

4:00

would endanger American hostages. And we

4:02

saw what happened in 1980 with

4:05

Jimmy Carter, when there were American

4:07

hostages being held in Iran,

4:10

and he couldn't get them out in

4:12

time for polling day, and Ronald Reagan

4:14

swept to victory. And so there is

4:16

the great potential for Biden that this

4:18

could really bite him hard, unless

4:21

he navigates this very carefully indeed.

4:23

And I think it's hard to

4:25

exaggerate just how closely involved America

4:27

is in all these negotiations

4:29

with Bill Burns, the head of the

4:31

CIA, Brett McGurk, the Middle East Policy

4:33

Advisor, who is working very closely with

4:36

the Qataris. They're all trying to achieve

4:38

that objective. And this is a

4:40

very personal story, actually, for

4:42

many Americans, not

4:45

least because of those four American

4:47

Israeli hostages, including a four-year-old

4:49

girl, Abigail Eden, who came out of

4:52

Gaza just two days ago. And, you

4:55

know, I was listening to a mother

4:57

speaking about waiting for her daughter to

4:59

be released today, and she was a

5:01

mother who had lost a son. And

5:03

she said, we can't even begin to

5:06

grieve for our son, because we're waiting

5:08

to see if our daughter will be

5:10

released either today or tomorrow. And I

5:12

think more so perhaps

5:14

than in the UK, people have

5:16

been watching the plight of the

5:19

hostages and their individual stories being

5:21

told day after day on

5:23

the networks because of the tightness of

5:25

that relationship, quite frankly, and the overlap

5:27

between some of the hostages and their

5:30

identities. Well, let's have a listen

5:32

to Joe Biden talking about that. A little

5:35

girl named Abigail turned

5:37

four years old. She

5:39

spent her birthday that birthday, and

5:42

at least 50 days before that held

5:44

hostage by Hamas. Today,

5:46

she's free, and Jill and I,

5:48

together with so many Americans, are

5:51

praying for the fact that

5:53

she is going to be all right. You

5:55

see, as you say, Emily, it

5:58

is absolutely dominating US networks. works,

6:00

US newspapers as well,

6:03

the idea that there is this

6:05

human drama playing out in the

6:07

Gaza Strip where there are people

6:09

who are holding American passports as

6:12

well as all the Israelis being

6:14

held there. And what is the

6:16

mechanism by which you extract those

6:18

people safely? Now, it's

6:20

a humanitarian concern, as you rightly

6:22

point out. People just concerned about

6:25

the hideousness of the position that

6:27

these people find themselves being held

6:29

in Gaza unclear when they and

6:31

if they will be released. He's

6:33

got a political dimension as well, because if any

6:35

of this goes wrong, then Joe

6:37

Biden could suffer serious blowback. We've

6:40

already seen that with Democrats kind

6:42

of saying, I'm sorry, you're not

6:44

being anything like sympathetic enough to

6:46

the Palestinian cause. I'm

6:48

convinced that behind closed doors, he is

6:50

being really tough with the Israelis as

6:52

well because he wants to get these

6:55

hostages out. He's aware of the pressure

6:57

that he's under about humanitarian concerns. He's

6:59

also worried about as well the suffering

7:01

of Palestinians if phase two of this

7:03

military operation resumes. And of

7:06

course, Republicans are waiting to pounce

7:08

on any misstep from Joe

7:10

Biden on the Middle East. And you've already

7:12

had Ted Cruz, who else, saying

7:15

that Joe Biden is the most

7:17

anti-Israeli president that the

7:19

US has ever had, which kind of is

7:21

a bit of a tall order, because I

7:23

think a lot of people would say he

7:25

is a very, very pro Israel president. Well,

7:27

look, it's important to understand Joe Biden has

7:30

been the most anti-Israel

7:32

president the United States has

7:34

ever had. From the very

7:37

beginning of the Biden administration, this

7:39

administration has undermined the government of

7:41

Israel at every step. They've done

7:43

so systematically. They've done so at

7:45

a granular level. He is surrounded

7:47

by radical anti-Israel activists. The one

7:50

person we haven't heard a huge

7:52

amount from over all of this

7:54

is Donald Trump. And as

7:57

ever with Donald Trump, it's personal because

8:00

After the presidential election,

8:03

one of the first people to

8:05

recognize Joe Biden as the new

8:07

president was the Israeli

8:09

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. And

8:12

Trump was absolutely furious with Netanyahu for

8:14

doing that because Trump felt that he

8:16

had given Netanyahu a whole heap of

8:18

support, had moved the US embassy from

8:21

Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, done a whole

8:23

pile of other things. How dare you

8:25

recognize that Joe Biden is the next

8:27

president? Well, interestingly, a

8:29

story is breaking at the moment

8:32

as we are recording

8:34

this edition of the news

8:36

agents USA, which is an

8:38

exclusive by the ABC News

8:40

Network. And it is about

8:42

not Trump, but his

8:45

vice president, one Mike

8:47

Pence. Now Mike Pence has always

8:49

been heralded, I think,

8:51

in the sort of small d

8:53

democratic circles as the man who

8:56

saved the constitution on

8:58

that day when he certified

9:01

Joe Biden as the

9:03

rightful US president as being the man

9:05

who stood up to a wayward

9:07

president Trump who didn't think that

9:10

Joe Biden was the rightful heir to

9:12

the presidency. And Mike Pence was

9:14

the one who said, look, we

9:16

have got to adhere to the constitution.

9:18

I have to do my civic duty.

9:21

And he's always been, if you like,

9:23

the slightly gray man, but the political

9:25

heartbeat of the constitution in

9:28

that crazy duo of the 2016 2020 election. And now some

9:30

news is breaking that throws

9:36

light on some notes

9:38

that Pence wrote originally, which

9:41

suggests that he had initially

9:43

decided not to preside

9:45

over the electoral count on January

9:47

the 6th, i.e. the day

9:49

that Joe Biden would be certified the

9:51

day that the riots broke out in

9:54

the Capitol. And this is from his

9:56

personal notes, we understand where he says,

9:58

not feeling like I should attend. electoral count,

10:01

too many questions, too many doubts,

10:03

too hurtful to my friend, that's

10:05

Donald Trump, my brackets, therefore I'm

10:07

not going to participate in certification

10:09

for the election. Now if that

10:11

is true it is a

10:13

radically, radically different narrative, radically

10:15

different understanding of the man

10:17

that we thought we knew

10:19

as the vice president. These

10:22

notes which were revealed we

10:24

understand from special investigators in

10:27

the case that's now looking into

10:29

that attempt to overthrow the Capitol, that's

10:31

Jack Smith the special counsel who's bringing

10:34

these indictments against Donald Trump. Apparently

10:36

sources have let ABC News know

10:38

that these were Mike Pence's notes

10:41

and they also reveal that the

10:43

only reason he did sign or

10:45

the main reason he did sign

10:48

was because his son who is

10:50

a marine who's also sworn the

10:52

oath of the Constitution probed him

10:55

and said dad you and I signed the

10:57

same oath you have to do

10:59

this. I mean this is scoring

11:01

a straight ten on the jaw-dropping

11:03

eye-popping count because it completely rewrites

11:06

the history as we understood it

11:08

of what happened on January the

11:10

6th. It also

11:13

shows that this is a sliding-doors

11:15

moment because what would have

11:17

happened if Mike Pence had

11:20

refused to certify the results. I mean

11:22

remember a majority of Republicans in the

11:24

House of Representatives had said they would

11:26

not certify the results and it was

11:28

Mike Pence who stuck his neck out

11:30

and said we have to do this

11:32

and he wrote this long letter which

11:35

was the legal justification of why he

11:37

was going to go ahead in the

11:39

time-honoured tradition and that it was not

11:41

the vice president's role to call into

11:43

question the reports of each of the

11:45

individual 50 states as they

11:47

gave their results to be certified and for

11:49

Joe Biden to be sworn in and

11:52

so it is absolutely astonishing and obviously

11:54

as you say Emily we're still trying

11:56

to get the sourcing on all of

11:58

this and the detail of it. all

12:00

of this. But if true, it

12:03

casts an entirely different light

12:05

on Mike Pence, on the fragility of

12:07

the US Constitution, which we've talked about.

12:09

I mean, you know, that Joe Biden

12:12

is president didn't show the strength of

12:14

the US Constitution. I think it showed

12:16

its brittleness and that but for the

12:18

actions of a few people, it

12:20

could have gone a very different way. And

12:22

it now turns out that it may not

12:24

be Mike Pence who saved the US Constitution,

12:26

but Mike Pence's military serving

12:29

son. And that is amazing.

12:31

Well, listen, we've actually got on

12:33

the line with us now, Sean

12:35

Spicer. He is the

12:37

former White House press secretary to Donald

12:39

Trump when Trump was president. And he

12:42

is the host of the Sean Spicer

12:44

show. And I think we should start

12:46

Sean Spicer. Good afternoon. Nice to see

12:48

you on the news agents USA. Can

12:51

we start if you don't mind by

12:53

getting your thoughts on this story that's

12:55

kind of breaking as we're recording, that

12:58

Mike Pence really had to be

13:00

persuaded to certify Joe Biden by

13:02

his own son. I'm hearing of it

13:05

right now for the first time from you guys.

13:07

So I don't have any of the details. It's

13:09

probably not prudent to comment before I read the

13:11

story. Give us your sense

13:13

of Mike Pence, then as Vice

13:15

President to Donald Trump, what was the relationship

13:17

they had between the two of them? Well,

13:20

I think it's pretty much as the narrative

13:22

has always told it. I mean, Mike Pence

13:25

was unbelievably loyal to Donald Trump. He backed

13:27

his policies. He went out there and supported

13:29

him. I think when you go back through

13:32

history, Mike Pence is probably it would go

13:34

down as the most loyal vice president. There

13:36

was very little that they broke with publicly.

13:38

You never really saw stories come out. Despite

13:41

all the leaks of so many other things,

13:43

you never saw stories that said, you know,

13:45

the vice president is in disagreement with the

13:47

president. You remember famously when Biden got ahead

13:50

of Obama and gay marriage. I mean,

13:52

there's always an instance in his administration where

13:54

the vice president and the president aren't always

13:56

simpatico. It's just it's the nature of politics

13:58

and human beings. But you

14:01

didn't see that with Pence and Trump. Pence

14:03

stood there, as he likes to say, shoulder

14:05

to shoulder with the president. And it wasn't

14:07

until that very end where

14:09

they had a very clear difference

14:11

of opinion. So let me just

14:13

read you then, because actually what he's put in

14:15

his notes from that December seems

14:17

to back up exactly what you're saying there about

14:19

loyalty. This is Mike Pence's words

14:22

according to these notes. Not feeling like

14:24

I should attend the electoral count. Too

14:26

many questions, too many doubts, too hurtful to

14:29

my friend. Therefore, I'm not going to participate

14:31

in certification of the election. Does that surprise

14:33

you at all? Look, I obviously wasn't in

14:35

the White House at the time, but I've

14:38

read a lot of the accounts that you

14:40

guys probably have in the news in terms

14:42

of different people. And part of when

14:44

you're in the White House or any leadership position,

14:46

frankly, is subject matter experts come to you and

14:48

lay out cases. And they say, this is why

14:51

we should do this. You know, in this business that

14:53

you're in, maybe it's producer. This is why we should

14:55

do this story or interview this person. This is why

14:57

they're persuasive. You rely on the people around you to

14:59

give you good advice and counsel. And

15:02

I think even just through the

15:04

anecdotal evidence that's out there, the

15:06

stories and the journalists that have

15:08

covered this, there clearly was

15:10

a divide among legal scholars

15:12

as far as what the role of vice

15:15

president was, what had happened

15:17

in some of the states. And so

15:19

I can at least understand the predicament

15:21

that somebody is in when they're being told,

15:23

I have five people that tell you A

15:26

and five people who tell you B and

15:28

you ultimately have to make the decision, whether

15:30

that's a minor issue or something as serious

15:32

as this. And I think

15:34

that we have seen those examples of

15:36

people coming to the vice president, not

15:38

just within the White House, but, you

15:40

know, people in Congress, legal scholars, making

15:43

the case that he had the ability to

15:45

do certain things or not. So you can

15:47

see how that might have pained him. Sean,

15:50

hang on one second. We'll be back with

15:52

the host of the Sean Spicer show after

15:54

this break. John

16:00

Sopo. The

16:04

News Agency Usa. Sickly.

16:07

To so ski so. but as we

16:09

haven't spoken for years, but certainly not

16:11

since the Twenty Twenty election. Do you

16:14

think what Trump said in the aftermath

16:16

of that election was wrong? Or do

16:18

you think that. He let me. Do you

16:20

see where he was coming? From and you be

16:23

more specific. Do you think Trump

16:25

was right to claim that he'd won

16:27

an election that he'd lost. Oh,

16:29

here's what I'd said. I think that

16:31

the focus was wrong. re I looked

16:33

at the if you look at the

16:35

state constitutional Pennsylvania if you look at

16:37

Wisconsin how they managed drop boxes same

16:39

day voting absentee voting It was clearly

16:41

not permitted and were have so many

16:43

folks in the media get this wrong.

16:45

Is it It wasn't that the courts

16:47

never held what he said was riots.

16:49

In many cases they said he didn't have what

16:51

we call legally standing meaning. Didn't have a

16:54

before because you can't prove that a harm

16:56

exists Then after the fact the court would

16:58

say well what do you want us to

17:00

do the elections than health And it was

17:02

a catch. Twenty two. I think that Trump's

17:04

lawyers were ice fault. What went down as

17:06

that Trump's lawyers when they saw states like

17:08

Nevada. Wisconsin. Pennsylvania

17:10

violated state constitutions and state voting procedures

17:12

under the guise of cove it that

17:14

doesn't give you the right to not

17:17

obey the law and where I think

17:19

the focus should have been is there

17:21

and talking about procedures that weren't followed.

17:23

Votes that Works have that weren't okay

17:25

with the law and that's what I

17:28

have always maintained because to me there's

17:30

no dispute that that occurred. Let me

17:32

cut to the chase. and because we

17:34

know about those legal attempts, we know

17:37

about the six three cases that worse.

17:39

than straight out not proven do you think know

17:41

that see emily's that with all due respect to

17:43

your that's not true and this is where again

17:45

that's why said he said eating people when you

17:48

say this because it was as if they weren't

17:50

proven it's of the court said especially the ones

17:52

you're referring to his wisconsin with the court said

17:54

is that he didn't have standing what it meant

17:56

was that still live with any of that a

17:59

remedy because the elect had occurred and it said, what

18:01

do you want us to do? Throw it out? And the

18:03

answer was yes. You've allowed something to take

18:05

place that was a catch-22.

18:07

So please stop misleading people. Okay.

18:10

You tell me bluntly, do you think that Donald Trump

18:12

did actually win the 2020 election? Well,

18:14

Joe Biden's in office, so he couldn't have. That's

18:16

not the question I asked. Yes, it is, because

18:18

who won the game, who won the election, is

18:21

who is the victor. Joe Biden was sworn in.

18:23

I'm asking what do you think? I mean, when

18:25

Joe Biden- I told you what I think. I

18:27

think that what happened is a legitimate president. That's

18:30

all I'm asking. Well, I think that they used the

18:32

rules to their advantage. I don't think that the law

18:34

was followed in many states. But at the end

18:36

of the day, the way the system works is

18:38

that you have a right to redress

18:40

your concerns in our legal system. They

18:42

didn't rule in Donald Trump's favor. And

18:45

so therefore Joe Biden is obviously the

18:47

legitimate president. But I don't think that

18:49

it was done correctly or in

18:51

a way that I think is in keeping with how

18:53

we're supposed to hold elections. Sean, I'm asking you

18:55

because for many of our listeners and our viewers,

18:58

as you will know, the

19:00

thing that the British audiences will remember

19:02

about you is how you stood up

19:04

the day after Inauguration Day and tried

19:06

to claim that Donald Trump's crowd was

19:09

the biggest in history. Now, I know

19:11

that's kind of history for you. But

19:14

you have told me that if

19:17

there was a day that I think I would love to do over

19:19

on it's that one. So

19:21

when you speak about things that

19:23

you think of as fact, many

19:25

people will be remembering that you

19:28

try to prevent things that weren't

19:30

fact as legitimate. Kellyanne Conway came

19:32

in after you and talked about

19:35

alternative facts very memorably. Do you see

19:37

where I'm coming from? No, I don't. This

19:39

is the journalism that I think so many people

19:41

not just in Britain in the US, but around

19:43

the world despise is when you try

19:45

to create clickbait moments, so that you can have

19:48

a viral moment. It's look, I said it very

19:50

clearly, I wrote a book about it that on

19:52

that first day, I wasn't as articulate as I

19:54

could have been, I think we focused on the

19:57

wrong things. I've made it very clear, I make

19:59

no apologies. for the fact that I would, as

20:01

you said, and I've said it publicly, like a do-over

20:03

because I wasn't as clear as what we should have

20:05

been talking about that day. And I did this- Wait,

20:08

when you say you weren't as clear- When I'll do

20:10

a- When you say you weren't as clear- Let me

20:12

finish this- Okay, but just clarify what weren't as clear

20:14

means. Let me finish. What I said is I

20:17

would like a do-over because I did a

20:19

disservice to the president, and I think frankly,

20:21

the administration shouldn't have started off on that

20:24

tone, me coming out there and explaining that.

20:26

I've been very clear about that, and I know that you

20:28

want to replay that moment so that you can have your

20:30

moment, which is what, again, I

20:32

think people despise about people in

20:34

journalism that don't focus on the facts, that

20:36

don't want people to be informed, but want the

20:38

clickbait moment that you seek so often to

20:40

get. Okay, so when you're talking about

20:43

focusing on the facts, Kellyanne Conway literally had

20:45

to follow what you'd said with that phrase,

20:47

alternative facts, which was a

20:50

very dystopian concept

20:52

for many of us, which are that you

20:54

could say something and it might be right

20:56

within one person's perception, and it might be

20:58

wrong within another person's perception, whereas we kind

21:00

of know that facts are facts, right, Sean?

21:04

We do. Okay, so

21:06

I guess- It's ironic

21:08

to me that with so much going on in the

21:10

world, both in terms of what's going on in our

21:12

current election and obviously worldwide, that you choose

21:14

to focus on something from what, seven years

21:16

ago? I try to do the math in

21:18

my head. Well, it's kind of what happened seven years

21:20

ago, but it's also kind of

21:22

where we are now because I

21:25

guess you're still defending a man that could

21:27

go on to become the next president of

21:30

the US, right? No, no,

21:32

actually, again, you're putting words in my mouth. It's

21:34

interesting that, was it one of your former colleagues the

21:37

other day when talking about Israel that defended the fact

21:39

that they lied about their reporting, but it was worth

21:41

it because it was in the best interest? Well, let's

21:43

pick up on your point, right? No, no, no. Is

21:45

it really from seven years? I'm not talking about Israel

21:47

or guys at the moment. Wait, wait, wait, hold on.

21:50

What about your- I've got as long as you

21:52

have. What about your profession and your colleagues that

21:55

continue to lie to the, not just to your

21:57

audiences but worldwide and then say, but it was

21:59

the right- thing to do is in the best interest.

22:01

Yeah, I'm honestly not responsible for all

22:04

journalists everywhere in the world. I see. But

22:06

I'd love to talk to you about your

22:08

words, which I think do match up.

22:11

So I guess my question now is,

22:13

is Donald Trump in

22:16

a position to be president again, despite

22:19

everything that you know

22:21

he did and everything he tried to do over the

22:23

2020 election

22:25

and before, would you welcome him back

22:27

as president? Well, first of all,

22:30

I think that the question is pretty stupid. The

22:32

bottom line is that we have a system of

22:34

primaries and caucuses that people run

22:36

through for the nomination of their respective

22:39

parties. Right now, Donald Trump is leading

22:41

in the Republican field for that. And

22:43

secondly, he's beating Joe Biden both nationally

22:45

and in battleground states. So

22:47

whether he's capable or not, or however you

22:49

phrase this, the bottom line is the majority

22:51

of American people in these polls, both in

22:54

terms of the primary. And then as we

22:56

go into a preview of the general election,

22:58

support that. OK, just pause there, because that's

23:00

fascinating. Which I get. I get fascinating

23:02

for us. I mean, and again, I

23:04

think that's you. And I

23:06

don't I get where that you don't like that.

23:08

But we have a system where people get to

23:10

vote and take their choices out and they contrast

23:12

it with another candidate. I know that

23:14

that pours you personally. And your position is

23:17

very well known. Yeah, I hate democracy. I

23:19

can't bear democracy. I guess the question is,

23:21

Sean, and I'm really trying to have a

23:23

proper debate with you here, because for our

23:25

UK audiences, and I guess we are speaking

23:27

predominantly to them, they will think of Donald

23:30

Trump literally on the day of the

23:32

6th of January talking about fighting

23:34

like hell, talking about overturning an

23:36

election result, which was constitutionally fair

23:39

to Joe Biden. And they'll

23:41

wonder how on earth America

23:43

is back in a space where

23:45

they still prefer him over

23:47

anyone else in the Republican Party and he

23:49

could still become president again. So it's a

23:51

genuine question to you. I have no dog

23:54

in the race. I don't have a vote.

23:56

I don't have an American passport. Thank God.

23:58

I've been genuinely asking whether it's. difficult

24:01

for American people to see that as it is for British

24:03

people. Well, I think for a

24:05

lot of Americans, they're contrasting what's happening right now.

24:07

I mean, you could look at it both domestically

24:09

and internationally, look internationally for four years under Donald

24:11

Trump, Russia hadn't annexed or

24:13

invaded an area that

24:16

if you look at the past several administrations

24:18

prior to him and currently this one, that was

24:20

for four years, Putin didn't do anything.

24:23

You look at what's going on in Iran,

24:25

North Korea, China, the provocative nature of all

24:27

of those countries that wasn't to the degree

24:29

that it is under Donald Trump. You look

24:31

at what's happening in Israel. So the calmness

24:33

that occurred- So where does it, is Russia

24:35

and Israel Biden's fault, just to clarify? Oh,

24:37

I think in many ways, yeah. Once we

24:39

pulled out of Afghanistan in such a disastrous

24:41

way, it was a signal to both Russia,

24:43

China, and the rest of the world that

24:45

the US doesn't have the strength that it

24:47

previously had, that it wasn't going to respond,

24:49

that it didn't. Yeah, so there's no question.

24:51

I believe that that's signal earlier. And the Hamas

24:53

attacks- Can I answer the question? No, no, that's part

24:56

of it. The Hamas attacks on Israel, also Biden's fault?

24:58

I'm just checking in here. I don't know that I

25:00

want to go that far, but I will say that

25:02

I think both Iran and Hamas respond

25:05

to strength. And I think that the way

25:07

that we have treated Iran in terms of opening

25:10

up funds to them, trying to get

25:12

them back into the deal that Donald Trump

25:14

had gotten them out of, is not something that projected

25:16

strength. So I don't want to draw out direct correlation.

25:18

I don't have the intelligence to back that up, but

25:20

I will say that it's no coincidence that for four

25:22

years, and that's what's interesting is that for you to

25:24

sit back and say, I don't see how that's possible.

25:27

Right? So that's the international side. Look at the domestic

25:29

side. Our interest rates are through the roof. Inflation

25:32

still is extremely high. Gas

25:34

prices high. Our border is an

25:36

absolute disaster. We're allowing people to come in through

25:38

our southern border unchecked. More people have come in

25:40

that are on our terrorist watch list in the

25:43

last year than we're before. So just confirm something

25:45

for me, because this is really interesting and it's really

25:47

helpful. I'm sure it is. Donald

25:49

Trump is seen as strong. Do you think

25:51

that is basically what people want now in

25:54

your party when it comes to foreign

25:56

affairs? They don't want diplomacy. They

25:58

don't want a problem solverness. early, they want

26:01

strong man. Is that fair? Well, I

26:03

think they want peace. So I mean, some of the

26:05

peace through strength is something that Reagan coined. But

26:07

at the end of the day, look around the

26:09

world and tell me that the guy who was

26:11

the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, who

26:13

talked about the fact that he flew around the

26:15

world for endless miles with Xi Jinping, and knew

26:17

all these people and was going to restore the

26:20

respect and strength of the United States after four

26:22

years of Donald Trump, look at the world

26:24

then and look at it now. Would you like to

26:26

see him back in power? I mean, I think I

26:28

asked you, you know, several years ago, if you'd ever

26:30

go and work for him again, at

26:32

that stage, you kind of

26:35

look like you, you know, want to

26:37

walk off the set and work for him again. But

26:39

I don't know if that's changed. And I don't know

26:41

what your response to him now would be. Would you

26:43

could you imagine working for Donald Trump again? And would you like

26:45

to see him back in power? Well,

26:47

I have a great show on right now, even

26:49

the folks in great all around the world, whether

26:51

Britain or anywhere can get a go to YouTube,

26:53

Sean M. Spicer, you can sign up. I got

26:56

a daily show. I've enjoyed the last three years.

26:58

Look, I've served in government, the military and campaigns

27:00

for all my life until I left the White

27:02

House. I've said that I did my time. I

27:04

was an honor to serve, but I'm not going

27:06

back into government service. Definitely knows. Look,

27:08

you never say never. When your country calls

27:10

to ask you to do something, depending

27:13

on the circumstances, as I said, I've served

27:15

in the military for 25 years, well

27:17

exceeding the 20 year requirement that we have

27:19

to retire. I stayed in because I love

27:21

it. And I love serving my country. So

27:23

I would never say never, but I have absolutely

27:26

zero intentions of going back into any kind of

27:28

full time government service for a variety

27:30

of reasons. I love time with my family. I love the

27:32

ability to provide from them in a way that I haven't

27:34

before. Would you like to see him back in power? I'd love

27:36

to see anybody back in power, but sure. I

27:38

think that the four years of Trump was

27:40

much better in contrast to the last couple

27:42

of Biden. And I think that there's no

27:44

question he's on his way to rolling through

27:46

this nomination right now. My analysis has been

27:48

for months now that if Trump wins the

27:50

Iowa caucuses, the New Hampshire primary and then

27:52

rolled through South Carolina and Nevada, I

27:55

think he's the race is over.

27:57

But anyway, it's always interesting chatting

27:59

with you. I really enjoyed it. Sean

28:01

Spicer, thanks so much. If you enjoy

28:03

that, then I am very concerned about things that you

28:05

might not enjoy. Come back. We can do longer

28:07

next time. Oh, I look forward to

28:09

it. Thanks, Sean. The News

28:12

Agents USA with Emily Maitless and

28:14

John Sople. The

28:18

News Agents USA. The

28:23

thing I love, and I was looking at Sean Spicer

28:25

while we were talking, and he was smiling. He

28:28

was genuinely enjoying that. I think there was a sort

28:30

of combative side to sort

28:33

of American spokespeople that

28:36

we don't often see here, actually. But he

28:38

seemed to be quite enjoying our chat. I

28:40

don't know if that came across. Yeah,

28:42

I think he was enjoying the chat. Three

28:45

things. One, I was in the briefing

28:47

room that Saturday evening when Sean Spicer

28:49

barrelled in and came in and told

28:51

us all that it was the biggest

28:53

crowd ever for an inauguration. This haster

28:55

league called News Conference, where he refused

28:57

to take any questions as well. So

29:00

if we're talking about corrupting discourse, you hold

29:02

a press conference where there's no conferring. It's

29:04

quite a unique sort of set of circumstances.

29:07

And it was clearly written for him by

29:09

Donald Trump. He didn't let Donald Trump down,

29:11

but he did exactly what Donald Trump asked him

29:13

to do at that thing. The second thing

29:15

that struck me about listening to that interview

29:17

you did with him was, one, the terror

29:20

that so many Republicans still

29:22

have about condemning Donald Trump,

29:24

even though privately they know

29:26

he lost the 2020 election

29:28

and still can't quite bring

29:30

themselves to say that out

29:32

loud. And if you want

29:35

to kind of go into the psychology of

29:37

what has allowed Donald Trump to carry on and

29:39

on and on and on, if he's that fear

29:41

of him – and I thought that spoke volumes

29:44

as well – and is he going back into

29:46

government? You must be bloody joking. Unless

29:49

somebody asks. I

29:52

think he thinks, I've done my time. Thank you

29:54

very much. It was absolute chaos working for Donald

29:56

Trump in the White House, because you had reached

29:58

a certain point in the election. decisions through

30:01

the normal decision-making process and Donald

30:03

Trump would upend them on

30:05

a whim. Yeah. And everyone's

30:07

left looking at each other thinking, what the hell just happened

30:09

there? I mean, the one thing I would say that really

30:11

struck home actually with what he said was that

30:14

America and Britain, let's

30:16

say, I don't know, I'm guessing a lot

30:18

of Western Europe sees this in a very

30:21

different way that we are stuck in this

30:23

sort of like Trump belongs to that post-January

30:25

the 6th moment, frozen

30:27

in aspect. We just cannot get over the

30:29

idea that there is the chance that people

30:32

would just forget all about the attempted insurrection,

30:34

forget all about the riots at the Capitol,

30:36

forget all about the legal cases that surround

30:38

him and go, oh no, he's our guy

30:40

again. But I think there is something to

30:42

that. If you've been in America all this

30:44

time and you just look at the gas

30:46

prices go up, inflation go up, and you

30:48

do blame Biden for the so-called foreign

30:50

wars, then actually Trump

30:53

doesn't seem to be such

30:55

a return to the bizarre. He seems

30:57

to be a continuation of everything that

30:59

you thought was going quite well until

31:01

he left office, riots aside.

31:03

Sure. That's all fine up to

31:05

a point. I think the great

31:08

mistake that much of the media made

31:10

when Donald Trump was president to cast

31:12

itself slightly as the opposition to him,

31:14

when it's the Democrats that are the

31:16

opposition to the president, but it

31:18

is journalists' job to call out truth.

31:21

And that is why you re-litigating

31:24

what Donald Trump told Spicer to

31:27

say the day

31:29

after the inauguration is relevant,

31:31

because I think there is such a thing

31:33

as truth and there is such a thing

31:36

as falsehood. And it wasn't true that the

31:38

crowd for Donald Trump's inauguration was the biggest

31:40

in history. Barack Obama's first inauguration was bigger,

31:42

and we just have to call out truth.

31:44

And what he tried to do there was

31:46

he was trying to say it is the

31:48

media that has toxified the

31:51

debate and has made it all so

31:53

awful. I think the media is just

31:55

trying to hold things to account. It's

31:57

not you, Emily Maitless, or me, John

31:59

Saple, saying... and Trump lost the

32:01

2020 election. I don't have

32:03

a view on it, but when 50 secretaries of

32:05

state, when there are 63 legal cases, when

32:09

the head of election security says it's

32:11

safe, when the CIA investigates whether there

32:13

was any wrongdoing and the FBI, and

32:15

they say, no, the election went fine

32:17

and everyone certifies it, then

32:20

it is the American established constitutional procedures

32:22

saying that Joe Biden won the election

32:24

and Donald Trump lost, not us, and

32:27

to try and frame it as Spicer

32:29

does, to say, oh, it's all you

32:31

media people who are trying to create

32:33

this false code and this kind of

32:36

under corroding kind of trust in our

32:38

constitution. It's bullshit. Worse than

32:40

that. Sean Spicer has his own

32:42

talk show. I think he hears Genuinely

32:44

part of the media now. Exactly.

32:46

And who is also trying to

32:48

create his own clickbait now? One

32:52

Sean Spicer. At this point,

32:54

we will leave the chat of Sean

32:56

Spicer and we will leave John to

32:58

get back to his Barbaden holiday. Looking

33:00

forward to seeing you back, soaps, in

33:03

the chair, in the grey chair, in

33:05

the grey rain, in grey London with me

33:07

next week. I'll be showing off baton though.

33:10

Bye-bye. Bye. This

33:15

has been a Global Player original

33:17

podcast and a Persefonica production.