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1:38

The

1:38

next chapter with PRIM's Rippepad is a production

1:41

of iHeartRadio. Hey, everybody.

1:43

It's PRIM. Welcome to the next chat represented

1:46

by Baron Davis and slick studios. This

1:48

week's guest is former UCLA and

1:50

NFL tight end and ESPN College

1:53

Football Analyst, Charles ARbuckle.

1:56

SO CEBUCK and I worked together for a number of

1:58

years during our time at ESPN,

1:59

while working on first take

2:02

college football.

2:02

And whether it was before

2:04

or during or

2:05

after our shows, we often talk

2:08

about things other than

2:10

including his family, his children,

2:12

thinking about grad school, his MPA,

2:15

also his twenty something years of work

2:17

in the biopharmaceutical industry.

2:19

And we always had something to talk about

2:21

beyond sport. And

2:24

another thing I knew about his journey is

2:26

also how tough it was for

2:28

him to leave the game of football,

2:30

something that's been a part of his life

2:32

since he was a little kid growing up in Texas.

2:36

And what stands out to me from this conversation

2:38

is the moments

2:40

he experienced shortly after

2:42

he retired from the NFL

2:45

in his late twenties and wondering what

2:48

he's gonna do with his life and questioning his

2:50

existence football

2:52

and without his athletic identity. I

2:55

certainly think this conversation extends

2:58

beyond sport because anytime we lose

3:00

an identity, and don't really

3:02

know what's next for us and what

3:04

our

3:04

purpose is and light. It

3:06

can bring up a lot of existential

3:09

questions. And also,

3:10

just a lot of confusion and dark

3:12

feelings.

3:13

And I think that's something most people will

3:16

struggle with some point in

3:18

their lives. But Seabook

3:21

was able to find his way out of it,

3:23

and so I hope you're able to learn something

3:25

from his journey and from today's conversation.

3:28

So without further ado,

3:30

here's Charles Arbuckle.

3:55

See bucket, it's so great to have you on. You

3:57

know, we we got the opportunity to

3:59

chat and

3:59

you came on the show. but

4:01

I wanted to bring you back because so much

4:03

has happened over the past several

4:05

years. I think the

4:06

last time we did the first interview was

4:08

back in twenty nineteen. Since

4:10

then, we had the pandemic, we got

4:13

stuck in our homes, we had the quarantine,

4:15

you've had some movement in your professional life.

4:18

you're playing golf. But

4:20

outside of the golf round, can you just tell

4:22

everybody in your own words? A little bit just a little

4:24

background about yourself and also what you do

4:26

today?

4:27

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I've been

4:29

in the pharma or health

4:31

care space for twenty plus years.

4:33

I mean, when I when I finished playing a

4:35

ball, You know, I played in

4:37

college, played in the roles for about five years. And

4:39

when I finished, I started doing some things

4:41

and set myself up so I could get into pharmaceutical

4:43

sales. So I started out as a

4:45

sales rep for years. And then

4:47

over the last twelve or thirteen

4:50

years, I've probably been in management of some

4:52

capacity. And so while

4:54

doing all of that, I've still kind of

4:56

maintained an opportunity to do some

4:58

broadcasting, and that's how we met, you know, it

5:00

was you know, doing

5:02

some games first and then

5:04

starting to do a lot of studio shows.

5:07

So I'd like that part because

5:09

it keeps me close to the game. And,

5:11

you know, probably in what, two thousand

5:13

seventeen, I I got the wild idea

5:15

of saying, hey, you know, they've got to go back

5:17

and grasp which which

5:20

I'm going to get my MBA. And I'm

5:22

almost finished, which is great because I need to

5:24

I need to complete that and get get done

5:26

with it. But you

5:28

know, with that said, it's just

5:30

given me the opportunity to, you

5:32

know, expand my

5:34

thought process, how I work why I do

5:36

some of the things in business. Why business works

5:38

with us? So then that's also help

5:40

me. Just, you know, be

5:42

a better analyst of things and look looking

5:45

objectively and analytically at

5:47

how things work. So, yeah,

5:49

that's that's kinda where I am now. Just

5:52

and and I I'm always kinda

5:54

played golf, but I've started here

5:56

lately to do it again just because I

5:58

I have you know, I don't have the free time,

6:00

but I'm starting to figure out if I

6:02

don't start learning now, this

6:05

won't get worse. This won't get worse.

6:07

So yep. That's where I am.

6:09

Well,

6:09

in addition to working on your golf game, you

6:11

obviously have a lot going on. You know, you

6:14

and I were talking the other day, and we've we

6:16

catch up from time to time, you know, you're

6:18

juggling, dad life, you're

6:20

juggling, husband life, you're juggling,

6:22

you know, school life,

6:25

you joke around

6:26

you're on the what do you call it? like, the ten

6:28

year plan. But nonetheless,

6:29

I mean, the juggling class with, like, full

6:31

time -- Yeah. -- you're you're working

6:33

full time. You're also heading

6:35

into the college football season, you're gonna be

6:37

traveling all over the place,

6:40

right, for ESPN. So

6:42

that's that's a lot of things

6:45

on your plate. Have you always been that way?

6:47

Yeah. Pretty I mean, I have I think

6:49

the one thing that's been good about

6:51

calling games. It's only on the weekend. Now you

6:54

have to prep during the week, and that means but

6:56

for me, for work, I travel for work, but

6:58

usually Monday through Thursday or

7:00

Monday, you know, Tuesday, Thursday. But

7:02

that's, you know, that's fine because it I

7:05

know how to do that now. I I understand

7:07

it. And with school, I'm almost

7:09

finished. It's a ten you know, our

7:11

our terms run ten weeks.

7:13

So that's been actually pretty good because

7:15

you as much as it's file,

7:17

there's still certain things you have to get

7:19

done like the papers and certain things. And

7:21

I'm out of the accounting classes. Now if I

7:23

add any more accounting classes, I

7:25

would be, you know, wanna

7:29

kill myself. But I can, yeah, I can

7:31

write a I can write a paper all day long. So

7:33

that part is easy because I met that back end

7:35

just taking up a few of like this. I'm literally

7:37

gonna be trying to I think I have

7:39

two classes. So Oh,

7:41

wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome.

7:43

Yeah. But I just I finally had to

7:45

just say, okay. Let's let's finish

7:47

this. I didn't have the ten year plan initially,

7:49

and then I just said, no. Let's let's talk

7:51

her down and kinda get this thing done so I

7:54

with this as I have, I've completed

7:56

it. Right? But I've

7:58

always kinda figured out

7:59

how to

8:00

you

8:01

know, a lot for time.

8:03

Sometimes, it can get a little hairy. But for the

8:05

most part, it's it's pretty I'm I'm pretty

8:08

good about about scheduling and not letting

8:10

the broadcasting or school

8:12

and if your will work, you know, just how you

8:14

just have to figure out how to do that

8:16

and how to manage it.

8:18

Yeah. You've been you've always

8:20

that's

8:20

the one thing that always fascinated

8:23

me about you

8:25

And I

8:25

think also why we became such good friends.

8:28

I was like, gosh, this guy is so well rounded

8:30

and you do so many things. I think a

8:32

lot of times in our in sports media

8:34

and broadcasting, You

8:36

know, I think athletes do a lot

8:38

of things, but it's easy to

8:41

get hyper focused. It's easy to get

8:43

sucked into

8:43

the sports broadcasting space.

8:46

There's this, like, there's

8:47

this urge to

8:48

want more. Like, you

8:51

know, it's being in the limelight, getting

8:53

those opportunities, getting that feedback,

8:55

wanting more shows, wanting more opportunities.

8:57

But you've always kind of seemed to

8:59

really maintain this balanced sense

9:02

of motivation in all these different realms.

9:03

Are you shaking your head because -- Okay. --

9:06

is that off the map, Mark, or you No.

9:09

you're you're on the mark, but I think part of

9:11

it is because if you're

9:13

not given or, you

9:15

know, like, if you don't get selected at a

9:17

certain point. Like, this broadcasting thing

9:19

is like sports to me. It

9:22

I've always told people, you know, well,

9:24

why aren't you doing this this high

9:26

profile game? Or what I said? Because sometimes you

9:28

have to have people to choose you to do

9:30

that. And I'm not saying that anybody that they

9:32

choose isn't good, But sometimes when you

9:34

get people in those spots, they

9:36

keep them there or they stay

9:38

there and there's not a whole lot of

9:40

room to move people out. So

9:42

what I've learned a few years ago when I did

9:45

start doing a lot more and said, hey, maybe

9:47

this is the time to

9:49

focus on you know,

9:51

highlight, you know, becoming a broadcast for

9:53

full time of doing that. I had, you know, some

9:55

conversations with the team. I've got

9:57

mentors and they were, like, look. This is a

9:59

great industry. But I'll

10:00

just be honest and

10:03

cautious because there are certain

10:05

things that are out of your control.

10:07

be that you can be when you show up,

10:09

but they're still gonna be the

10:11

next shiny penny or somebody that

10:13

they have in front of you. and that may

10:15

not change. And that and, you know, it it

10:17

wasn't easy to hear that, but

10:19

it was good advice as you start

10:22

getting a little bit older, and they start

10:24

having younger people that can come in. So

10:26

just like this week at the college football seminar,

10:28

it's great to go in the room full

10:30

of guys. but I know I can do

10:32

as good a job of as they can. But

10:34

I don't sit around anymore and say probably

10:37

like my younger self. Let me be competitive with

10:39

him and him. Now I'm gonna be the best that

10:41

I can and I think I'm I

10:43

don't know if I'm well rounded. I'll just

10:45

mature and learn. Okay. I'm

10:47

gonna do the best thing I can in this lane

10:49

right here. And if people recognize it,

10:51

I'm gonna keep getting opportunities. If they don't

10:53

-- Okay. -- that means I have to be

10:55

prepared to do other things as well. And I

10:57

think that's almost my

10:59

necessity has been that way for me.

11:01

Howard Bauchner: It's so

11:02

interesting. The way you described the

11:05

interaction and relationship with an

11:07

experience in sports broadcasting,

11:09

kind of reminds some of the

11:11

descriptors that you use, reminds me of the transition out

11:13

of sport of just do the

11:16

best that you can and not

11:18

always of course, there's that competitive

11:20

element where we have to compete with our

11:22

peers and and other athletes.

11:24

Obviously, there's there's only so many spots

11:26

in whatever game that we're

11:28

playing. But ultimate, ultimately,

11:30

it becomes a battle against ourselves.

11:32

And so I'm curious about

11:34

you said maturity. So

11:36

what

11:37

did you learn in

11:40

leaving football? that

11:42

you now apply to how

11:44

you how you just deal with various

11:46

obstacles and transitions today.

11:49

Big resiliency. I mean, you know, that's

11:51

not an easy transition. I've talked

11:53

to guys, and we were talking about

11:55

at this last week. I mean, whether you played

11:57

fourteen years in the league or

11:59

twenty years

11:59

or two two

12:01

games. There's something about

12:03

that rush of

12:05

running out of the tunnel, being in the

12:07

locker room, the opportunity

12:09

to compete every single

12:11

day with and against

12:13

guys. And when you leave it,

12:15

there's nothing else that's gonna replace it. That's

12:17

like when you said earlier, would replace

12:19

that? I can go place I can go

12:21

pick up softball. I can go play

12:24

basketball with the guys at the

12:26

y, but it's never gonna be the

12:28

same level of competition as

12:30

blocking Cornelia's been in the Bruce Smith

12:32

one week and then the next reconjunctuit or,

12:34

you know, Lawrence Taylor.

12:36

There's nothing that you're gonna have to find that

12:38

replaces that. And that's why I think

12:40

so many of a struggle There's

12:43

a Kendrick spirit when you are

12:45

around guys that are played or

12:47

women like you, a man that are played at a high

12:49

level because you know what that looks

12:51

like, what it feels like. But the hardest

12:53

part for all of us is you also know the

12:55

ones that struggle and you know your

12:57

struggle when you leave the game or when

12:59

you walk away from it or when they're

13:01

when you're when you're not chosen anymore.

13:04

But you're not the kid on the on the on

13:06

the corner that gets picked anymore. It it's

13:08

a lot. You know, it's a lot goes on to

13:10

that mentality. And that's why

13:12

guys, I think, struggle with this so much.

13:15

What was

13:15

your experience like? You and I have talked

13:18

a little bit about it and you touched on

13:20

it, but what were what were your

13:22

struggles like? Because I think and that's not

13:24

to imply that you did struggle. But I think

13:26

everybody I think most athletes maybe

13:28

not all, but I would say ninety nine point nine

13:30

percent have some sort of issue

13:32

in leading sport. So what

13:34

were your struggles? Yeah. I

13:35

think it's funny. Every guy you talk

13:38

to no matter how smooth the

13:40

transition was, whether they become a

13:42

high level executive for

13:44

a company or you know, they've they've

13:46

been able to work in corporate America for

13:48

years. The hardest part for

13:50

me was, you know, figuring out,

13:52

okay, that

13:54

identity that I have. I have to I have

13:56

to lose it. I

13:57

can't I can't

13:58

let it immerse me. I

13:59

can't let it suffocate me. I can't

14:02

let it almost take

14:03

want me to take my life.

14:06

And I think, you know, I've got I've talked to so

14:08

many guys that I thought, hey, man, they had

14:10

it together. they won the same boat, but they

14:12

were struggling in a

14:14

silo because as a ball

14:16

player or athlete, you're

14:18

taught, okay, You just work through it. You work

14:20

yourself out of it. But, you know,

14:22

the good thing for me was, you

14:24

know, we had a really strong NFLPA.

14:27

Association in Indy, and

14:29

then also just my

14:31

faith being able to go to, you know,

14:33

my former chaplain

14:36

and then really talk through things about

14:38

what what that was like because

14:40

while you think you're the only

14:42

one, they've dealt with that with other guys

14:44

and that come through the

14:46

program or laugh. And so I think

14:48

that was those are the things that helped

14:50

me. There were there were some dark times where I

14:52

felt like, hey, you know, why I

14:54

here? Why do I need to be here? And I can remember

14:56

laying in my office floor one day

14:58

thinking, you know, do I really wanna do I

15:00

really wanna keep going at lights

15:02

like the you know, has this been all that

15:04

lives given me. But I had a

15:06

young son, you know, I had a wife,

15:09

and then in the future, a daughter.

15:11

So I I think it was

15:13

you know, I'm glad I was able to

15:15

get the help and support

15:17

to understand that, you know, you don't that

15:20

your life isn't over when you're done. with

15:22

the field. And for a while, I would kind

15:24

of let people know how to play, but I want I was

15:26

determined more to say, no. I

15:28

didn't play ball. you know, try to

15:30

kinda go away from it so you could

15:33

show people that you had other

15:36

attributes and skills.

15:38

that that last part that you just

15:41

mentioned about not

15:43

sharing with people that you played ball.

15:45

You know, as you know,

15:47

Ceebuck, this is like some of the research that

15:49

I'm doing. And it's something that I

15:51

didn't really think about,

15:53

but there is a lot of research

15:55

to show

15:56

that societal pressure

15:59

disallows or does not allow

16:02

athletes, especially male

16:04

athletes to move on

16:05

from sport -- Mhmm. -- because

16:07

you're

16:08

walking down the street and it's like,

16:11

oh, my god, sleeping. What's

16:13

going you know -- Yeah. -- UCLA, like, I

16:15

remember you. And there are those moments

16:17

or if you're in an interview and they look on your

16:19

resume. It's like, oh, wow. played

16:21

in the NFL for, you know, a number

16:23

of years and that becomes the centerpiece

16:25

and the center point of your interview and

16:27

you don't really talk about anything else. So

16:30

there's that that

16:32

societal pressure that, like, shapes your experience, and

16:34

it makes it harder to kind of

16:36

leave sport. Now, you

16:38

also mentioned about being

16:41

in your office, experiencing

16:43

some dark moments, and this is part where I

16:45

wanna kinda like slow down the conversation

16:47

because I think athletes listening

16:49

to this. It's so easy to skip over those

16:51

moments. And so I just kinda wanna, like, slow

16:53

down and and talk about that. But

16:55

Can you share maybe one or

16:57

can you remember a dark moment, a

17:00

lowest point where you

17:02

really hit rock bottom. You're like, I

17:05

just I don't know where to go. I don't know what to

17:07

do. Yeah. I

17:07

I think it was just, like I said, just

17:10

some contemplation of

17:12

do I really wanna continue to to live like

17:14

this or live with

17:17

a a part of not having

17:19

that identity you know, how do I how

17:21

do I let that go? How do I you

17:23

know, and it it wasn't just you end

17:25

up on the floor and

17:27

you're off or so it's sitting there

17:29

contemplating it. It's moments that lead

17:31

up to it. It's just, you know,

17:33

this rejection maybe for you not getting a

17:35

job. It's thought you were qualified for, you know,

17:37

just the things. I think it was well, as

17:39

I look back, it might have been the

17:42

rejection on top of rejection. On top

17:44

of rejection. hey, he's

17:46

not qualified for this, but we love him

17:48

because he's a former athlete. And

17:50

when you don't get hired or you, you know,

17:52

your business skills are or the

17:54

way you want to. It's a lot of numb but there's

17:56

a couple it was a number of different

17:58

things. I don't think it was just

18:00

one. But in that

18:02

moment, III started

18:04

thinking, okay,

18:05

no. Let's

18:06

let's slow this down a little bit.

18:08

Let's think about all the times

18:10

you had rejection of sports and how you were able to

18:12

come back. And that's why I said make making sure I

18:15

reached out to people because when I went

18:17

into a group of guys, similar

18:19

to me, and

18:20

talking to them one on one or in a

18:23

group, those are things

18:23

that were shared or,

18:25

you know, going to get

18:27

happen. And then also, eventually, you wanna,

18:30

you know, seek out help just to

18:32

say, help me through this. Because I

18:34

know, you know, my mind is

18:36

planning to a video and

18:38

AAA dialogue that I

18:40

know is not true. But how do

18:42

I kinda, you know, peel

18:44

that back and and focus on the

18:46

things that are that are a

18:48

positive and the things that I know and life have

18:50

been really good for me.

18:51

Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. How

18:53

old how old were you? when

18:55

this Go go ahead. Just yeah. How

18:57

old were you when this happened?

18:59

Ninety five,

19:00

ninety six. So

19:03

You know, I my last year was

19:05

ninety five, so it had to be around nineteen

19:07

ninety six before I

19:09

started really started going broadcasting.

19:11

I mean, I was doing local things in the

19:13

Bay Area and before I kinda had

19:15

my place because I was still thinking, do

19:17

I wanna play football?

19:19

but it's funny. I knew when I was gonna

19:21

stop playing, and I tell the story all

19:23

the time. I was on the bus. I had to work out

19:25

with the I got released by the cold

19:28

during the season, but I got workout or I got

19:30

a call about a workout in the in

19:33

Carolinas, because one of the former coaches was

19:35

here that was there in off season. and

19:37

it was me and Andre Reade. And, you

19:39

know, they would work out. And the workout,

19:41

I thought went well. But I was

19:43

on the bus and they

19:45

you know, Bojangles is a big sponsor. I think

19:47

the owner owned Bojangles. So they

19:50

used some a bowl Bojangles box of

19:52

chicken. And I opened the chicken.

19:54

I'm like, I'm not gonna do this

19:56

anymore. I think I'm done with this. Think

19:58

I'm not think I'm good. And it wasn't both

19:59

legs. The chicken was actually pretty good. I

20:02

told I told I told Dray Reid, I said, man, I

20:04

can't do this anymore. I I think it's time for me

20:06

to move off. He ended up playing fourteen,

20:08

fifteen years throughout December.

20:11

but it was just in that

20:13

moment, I was like, I I

20:15

my body, you know, I was I

20:17

wasn't I it was hard to get up to

20:19

do that every single game,

20:22

get alone, think about going through another year

20:24

of that crap. I just said,

20:26

hey, I'm done. I retired after

20:29

that. You know,

20:29

after talking to dozens of athletes,

20:32

it is

20:32

quite funny when

20:34

when

20:35

There's a

20:36

lot of athletes that

20:39

remember the moment when

20:41

they were just done. And for

20:43

those that just get fatigued, Like,

20:45

they just wake up one morning and they're training

20:48

or -- Right. -- they're at training camp

20:50

or they're

20:51

doing PT and it's

20:53

like, Don't wanna

20:55

do this anymore. I'm just tired.

20:57

So but that moment for you was on

20:59

the bus eating bojangles. They're eating

21:02

bojangles. Yeah. I'll still I'll still

21:04

go by and get a breakfast sandwich

21:06

occasionally just to remember this. But I

21:08

knew like, I had had so

21:10

many knee injuries leading up to that.

21:12

And

21:13

he in

21:14

spite of being being, like, one

21:17

and a half leg strong,

21:19

I still made it to leaks. I had it. I

21:21

said, okay. This is getting tough. This is

21:23

getting tough just to go to camp

21:26

every year, sign a waiver to

21:28

say, like, if your knee is not

21:30

if you don't pass the physical because

21:32

of your knee, we'll cut you. I had to

21:34

do that every year after my first year in

21:36

the league. So when you start getting it when

21:39

you know that, like, and and

21:41

eventually, that knee became a knee

21:43

replacement. So, hey, you you know it's

21:45

gonna get there. I just couldn't I couldn't do it

21:47

anymore. Like, my body I gaming all

21:49

of you the same way. But

21:52

Yes. Yeah.

21:53

That's so powerful. So

21:55

around that time -- Mhmm.

21:57

-- you were about twenty eight

21:59

years

21:59

old roughly in your late twenties. Twenty

22:02

seven. Yep. Twenty seven. Okay. Twenty seven

22:04

twenty eight. And what

22:05

did you do after that bus ride? Did you

22:07

end up doing any more workouts? Or you

22:10

that was the last day? That

22:11

was the I I stopped I mean, I kept

22:14

working out, but I didn't do any more workouts

22:16

for teams. And then I I kinda start

22:18

making the transition. I got a

22:20

call from the folks at the close to say, hey, we have some

22:22

opportunities. Would you like to do some

22:24

preseason television? Which

22:26

I said, yeah. I'd love to. and

22:28

I was already doing some post game radio

22:30

stuff with them occasionally, and I I

22:32

wrapped that up. You know, I

22:34

was working my pharma job and

22:37

sales, which is a perfect fit

22:39

for sports because, you

22:41

know, I didn't have to go into an office. I was

22:44

I was well, I was transitioning

22:46

into that field. I was still in sales,

22:48

but in another industry. So,

22:50

yeah, it gave it gave me a chance to

22:52

kinda cut my teeth on high school football,

22:55

local college football, I

22:57

mean, you know, Wabash and Nepal and

22:59

Indiana is a really big

23:01

decree game.

23:03

And then I started getting opportunities

23:05

with ESPN Regional at the time

23:07

to do mid American

23:10

conference games. And I think that's what really helped me because I

23:12

started to get get

23:14

chances to go meet with

23:16

coaches again. a lot of them have been

23:18

coaching when I was playing. So I

23:20

knew those guys had been

23:22

started to do occasionally doing some NFL

23:24

games when say,

23:27

the the the color analyst for the Kohl's

23:29

couldn't make it. I could step in. So I got

23:31

a chance to get back around football.

23:33

which was probably good for me. It made me not

23:36

like, some guys, I hate this game.

23:38

You know? Mhmm. But I I always

23:40

I I even Even

23:43

when times weren't great, I still liked

23:45

the game. I I didn't have

23:47

that sense of I hate this game and it,

23:49

you know, treated me wrong because I can I

23:51

can never say that. But, yeah, that that's

23:53

kinda what I started doing and just,

23:55

you know, just rebuilding a

23:58

a career. So in many

23:59

ways, your relationship with football was

24:03

not damaged, as you

24:04

mentioned, because some athletes,

24:07

some NFL players

24:07

walk away from the game, and they end

24:09

up hating the game, not necessarily

24:12

because of football itself, but

24:14

I think business side of it. I

24:16

think it sours their experience. So you

24:18

walked away, still

24:20

having a relatively positive

24:23

relationship with football. So

24:25

when you were having that dark moment

24:27

and

24:27

you were questioning what

24:29

was next for you,

24:31

And it almost sounds like you were even will

24:34

you think about ending your life? Or was

24:36

it

24:36

just a question of what you were gonna do

24:38

with your life? if I

24:40

had put that thought in my mind, I could have

24:42

at that time. I don't I don't I can't say,

24:44

yeah, I was gonna do this, but it there

24:46

were thoughts of should I. So

24:48

I didn't I didn't go there luckily.

24:51

But I think you you said it

24:53

best. The game I didn't

24:56

love the politics and the business out of the game.

24:58

I never liked that. And that's that's the

25:00

worst part of the NFL. But

25:02

the part that you missed the most is a camaraderie

25:04

with the guys. which I

25:06

think I was able to get through those those

25:09

meetings and the entire players getting

25:11

back together doing different functions because

25:13

they almost became your locker room.

25:15

you know, just like a locker

25:17

room two point o when you're

25:19

not there anymore. But but you at

25:21

least have a group of guys when you get

25:24

together. wants it twice a month to do functions that you and then

25:26

started doing the golf tournaments and different things

25:28

where you would be around people.

25:30

Where you you can't say I hate

25:32

this game because the reason you're there, because

25:35

the game got you there.

25:37

But but the love but but that

25:39

part was great. I mean, the part

25:41

that you hate the most that I hate the

25:43

most is the business side and some of the

25:45

cut protonate to the game. That's just

25:47

that's just

25:47

the reality. So,

25:50

you know, yeah, the

25:52

business side of it very much sours the

25:55

the experience regardless of what sport

25:57

you're in. I think it's that transactional nature.

25:59

that that really leaves a

26:02

bad taste on a lot

26:02

of players' mouths. I think, really,

26:05

mostly speaking about revenue generating

26:07

sports. I think that's

26:08

where like, football, the football, and

26:10

basketball, and, you know, maybe

26:11

baseball soccer as well.

26:14

Well, in one in one point to that,

26:16

term. I think that's the one thing we have to be cognizant

26:18

of. And I've heard it heard this

26:20

week that our college football

26:22

seminars there's been so much talk

26:24

about money money money and NIO

26:26

and all of this.

26:28

But there was one person

26:30

that spoke and they said, hey, we need to think

26:33

about you know, the players

26:35

and the the, you know, the participants

26:37

because as as of late, we've got a lot

26:39

of college age kids and even some high

26:41

school kids that have done something

26:43

that committed suicide. I've had some, you

26:46

know, mental break mismental issues

26:48

around this. And when

26:51

he said that, he said it, but I was

26:53

still thinking, we don't say that enough. Not

26:55

when we are now gonna have kids enough to

26:57

fly across country. It becomes like you're you're

26:59

in a job. and I

27:02

hope that colleges will continue

27:04

to get because we didn't have those support

27:06

systems as much growing

27:08

up. I know I did not when I was in school. I was

27:10

lucky to meet doctor Parham because I was on

27:12

the West Coast where things were moving

27:14

a lot quicker. And probably

27:17

another reason why I

27:19

didn't sour to the game because of

27:22

relationships like that. But I think we

27:24

really need we really need to look at

27:26

that because a lot of kids

27:28

suffering, young adults suffering

27:30

more so than we know when

27:32

they probably do it in silence. And

27:34

I hope programs, I hope all these programs with

27:37

this money that they're talking about, it it

27:39

put enough back around

27:41

mental health.

27:42

Yeah. I think that's such an important

27:45

conversation. And I'm glad you brought it up because I

27:47

do wanna talk about that. It's funny. I was I

27:49

was just on. Hopefully, this isn't

27:51

too much of a digression, but it, you

27:53

know -- Yeah. -- something I'm obviously really

27:55

passionate about. But, you know, I had

27:58

a conversation a pod I was on a

27:59

podcast that was connected with

28:02

the n c double a. And the

28:04

conversation about doing at

28:06

late mental health was the emphasis, but

28:08

there was some caution

28:11

about wanting to about

28:13

the suicidality and the recent

28:16

incidents. Because there was a concern of

28:18

not just, I think, maybe a little bit

28:20

of liability, I think there was they were

28:22

worried about this contagion effect. And

28:24

honestly, this is this is beyond

28:26

my training. I don't I don't have

28:28

the answers to that. But

28:31

it is my personal opinion

28:33

that

28:34

I've been a part of

28:37

that generation that didn't talk

28:39

about it. that didn't

28:41

work. So I'm less

28:43

worried about the

28:45

contagion of fat. Yeah. In that, if

28:47

we are talking about suicide,

28:49

you know, is that going to prompt

28:51

somebody else to think about it? I mean, it's

28:53

already out there. So I would

28:56

rather talk about it and and

28:58

talk about the options and resources. And

29:00

so listen, like, in in in

29:02

full disclosure, I have had

29:04

suicidal ideations before. I they

29:06

were passive. in

29:08

a sense of similar to

29:11

similar to yours where it's just

29:12

a fleeting thought. There's no

29:14

act, there's no plan of intent

29:17

there's no plan to act on it. So -- Mhmm.

29:19

-- and those, I will just

29:22

say that having those

29:24

passive thoughts of

29:27

questioning what your purpose

29:29

is, what you're gonna do next

29:31

in life. What is the meaning? What's the

29:33

meaning of you being here? Those

29:35

things are normal

29:37

during

29:37

stressful moments. And that's something

29:40

that

29:40

I learned when I did my clinical training this

29:42

year. you know, in in having to

29:44

work with having my first set of clients

29:46

and my supervisor mentioned like, hey, this

29:48

is important to let people know, like, this

29:50

is actually normal. during periods

29:52

of stress. But if it gets the point

29:55

where it's like, okay, you know, there was

29:57

an act, there was

29:59

intent, there was

29:59

a plan, you

30:01

know, and so so in

30:03

that moment, when you were

30:05

questioning my identity,

30:07

what I was gonna do, Do

30:09

you remember just like the general feeling

30:13

of the what were you

30:15

feeling in that moment?

30:16

You know,

30:19

I I mean, I I

30:21

think what I

30:22

what I remember

30:25

is

30:25

this you know, saying, god, what why

30:27

why am I feeling this way? I

30:29

I remember asking that question. And

30:32

I and I I it was almost like a

30:34

a voice said, good luck, man. You're okay.

30:36

And and I remember it was it

30:38

was almost one of those, like, you're gonna

30:40

be fine. There's gonna be struggles,

30:42

but you're gonna be fine.

30:44

it was a it was a calm. It wasn't

30:47

like you said, I didn't have

30:49

a plan of I'm gonna go and

30:51

do x, y, or z. but

30:53

it was just a a thought

30:55

of how do I how do

30:57

I keep going if I don't feel like

30:59

I'm whole you like I'm like I'm missing

31:02

something. And and I think that's the

31:04

part that, to your point,

31:06

so

31:07

many young Well,

31:09

no. Yeah. I mean, not just young, but I think

31:12

anybody that has played at a high

31:14

level or that has had some

31:16

some struggles with pressure or anxiety or whatever you wanna

31:18

call it. But, you know,

31:20

you

31:21

you can you you can sense

31:22

that. And, you know, and I think I think to

31:25

your point, we

31:27

were generation even a little bit before

31:29

you where now you gotta be tough. You can't,

31:31

you know, you can't let anybody see

31:33

that. You can't let know,

31:35

you can't be vulnerable. Well, I

31:37

think that that was really not the

31:39

way to go. And and I

31:41

think that people say, well, you shouldn't talk

31:44

about it. if

31:44

I can help just

31:46

one person or two people,

31:48

then that's better if I can help

31:50

even more, I'd like to.

31:53

but there's a lot of folks that struggle

31:55

with that. And when you talk to them

31:57

or when you get them to

31:59

open up, they'll tell you, man, I was

32:01

struggling with this. So this is tough for me or

32:03

and and you wanna make sure they understand, hey,

32:05

look, if you need somebody, this call because

32:07

we've all had that. No matter how

32:09

much no matter how many accolades you

32:11

have or how many all American

32:13

teams you made, how many trophies you won,

32:15

how many championships, those things will not

32:17

make you whole when that when

32:20

you get to that point where you're feeling like there's

32:22

nothing else or nobody else that

32:24

understands. time.

32:26

And I'm and I'm not qualified to

32:28

to be an expert on it at all. I

32:30

can just tell you how I would

32:32

you know, counsel somebody if they come

32:34

to me. And I have

32:37

had young players as they transition

32:39

out that will open up and say,

32:41

okay, look, Let's let's get you in this direction. Do you know what you

32:43

wanna do? Yeah. Yeah.

32:45

I I mean, that's all I know how to

32:47

do. I

32:48

think it's so important. I appreciate you just sharing

32:50

your story and talking about it because I

32:53

think the the importance of

32:55

that is that maybe there is somebody out

32:57

there, a sports parent, a coach,

32:59

and athlete, whoever. Even if it's

33:01

a non sport or non

33:04

athlete out there that's like, wow. Charles

33:06

and Prem

33:08

felt this way

33:10

Because I think it's so easy when

33:12

we're down and out to feel

33:14

like this is just our experience

33:17

and nobody else is feeling that

33:19

this way. And when you're down, it's

33:21

really hard

33:22

to reach out. It's really right because

33:24

it's hard to muster up that

33:26

energy when

33:26

you feel like the entire world is

33:29

on your shoulders. So, you

33:31

know, talking about it, I think hopefully

33:33

validates anybody else that's that's talking

33:35

about it. And know, when

33:37

you you mentioned

33:38

when sport wasn't

33:41

a part of your life, you didn't

33:43

feel cold. It's like something is missing, and it

33:45

makes sense. because it's

33:46

you lost this part of you

33:47

that has been a part of your whole

33:50

life really up until that point. Yeah.

33:52

And you're asking why?

33:55

like, in that moment, you were asking

33:57

why do I feel this way? Mhmm.

33:58

And so kind of

34:00

finding the answer

34:02

to that Yes. So do you think your

34:04

childhood

34:05

contributed to how you felt in

34:07

that moment? In the

34:10

sense of growing up growing up in Beaumont,

34:12

Texas where football was

34:14

everything, you know, football capital of the

34:16

world. How do you think your challenge has contributed

34:18

to that?

34:19

Yeah. So it's interesting.

34:20

I was born in Beaumont, I grew up in Houston,

34:22

but spent a lot of time in Beaumont in the

34:24

in the summers. And, you know,

34:26

that that at one point in time, that

34:28

was the goal to try you know, orange,

34:31

pulled off in in Beaumont, not a

34:33

whole lot to have refined

34:35

a retail, rice, town, you

34:38

know, like rice fields,

34:40

which was interesting because after the

34:42

Vietnam War, there were a lot of Vietnam

34:44

refugees that migrate it

34:46

to that area.

34:48

And it's finally one of my I mean, just

34:50

kind of maybe think about it. One of

34:52

my buddies down in the street. His mom was Vietnamese his dad was black.

34:54

And she could make some of the best

34:57

damn Vietnamese gumbol there was

34:59

because it was spicy, you

35:02

know, Orlando is now. It was great. But but what you have was

35:04

a yeah. You had a multi pot.

35:06

Now it was still very segregated.

35:09

at the time when I was going out. You know, it's

35:11

white. It's on one side of town and black's

35:13

on on one. And that was Texas in

35:16

general, but when you moved to Houston, it's a

35:18

little bit more open, more

35:20

diverse, still problems because you think

35:22

about the times in the seventies and eighties.

35:24

But growing up, if

35:26

you play a ball, you were the

35:28

the the person, you know, whether it was middle school, whether

35:30

it was high school, when you became

35:33

a star, you were a star. I

35:35

mean, it was weird, especially in

35:38

football. I mean, you just it was

35:40

something about wanting to play and

35:42

be, you know, at first for me,

35:44

it was baseball. I love baseball, but

35:48

then as I started getting bigger and faster and stronger

35:50

football. That became my identity. And

35:52

I think I had to think about

35:54

that. It had been my

35:57

identity for so

36:00

long

36:00

that when I

36:01

felt like it was taken from me,

36:03

how would I replace it? I

36:06

think that's the part.

36:08

And instead of saying replace

36:10

it, how do I supplement it and

36:12

move on and, like, just kinda put it on the shelf because I can't do

36:14

it anymore at that time, but I can

36:16

still it's still gonna be a part of me,

36:18

but how do I add to it? how

36:21

do I do different things? So I don't feel like it's

36:23

completely over. Howard Bauchner: Yeah. Yeah. So

36:25

you said it's been such

36:27

a huge part

36:30

of your life, if not the majority, at least up until

36:32

you were twenty seven, twenty eight years old.

36:34

So when did what are your first memories

36:37

of of football entering your

36:40

life? I

36:40

mean, you know,

36:42

I was just watching all those games

36:44

or playing a popcorn on a football.

36:46

You know, we had

36:50

this funny we had some really good coaches that

36:52

coached us, but a lot of the guys that

36:54

played and my Pop

36:56

Warner team One

36:58

was though j for dance. He was a year behind me, and

37:00

o j, you know, played a

37:02

long time in the league. Now he has ALS.

37:04

We've been battling on that. He's he's

37:06

still works with the Baltimore Ravens, a

37:08

great inspirational story. But OJ was

37:11

one of our one of

37:14

my teammates. Rudgy Moore, who will play a college ball

37:16

with UCLA, played in the league for a

37:18

few years. Last blanks

37:20

was a

37:22

major basketball player in Texas and

37:24

ends up playing at at

37:27

in Detroit for a while

37:29

in the NBA. Ivan

37:32

Jones played college basketball, and I think he played

37:35

overseas. Will McClay, who's now

37:37

an executive with the Dallas Cowboys. He

37:39

was on the team. This

37:42

was coach. We had Sid Blanks. I mean, we had some when

37:44

I think about it, just in

37:47

that top warner, that that that

37:49

team there, we probably had six

37:51

or seven guys that played

37:54

college or pro basketball

37:56

or football. So it was,

37:58

you know, you compete me early on.

38:00

think that's what I remember. I learned how to compete. Because if you weren't if all the way

38:03

you don't get on the field even as a youngster, you

38:05

have to be able to compete.

38:08

And

38:08

that that's what I remember about football and just

38:10

any

38:11

sport that I play. We had some

38:13

really good players in the area

38:15

that I grew up I mean,

38:17

Andre Wynn and were talking that the You know, Andre grew up in league

38:19

city or Dickinson, you know, ended up winning

38:21

a highest metrology view of H. But

38:23

in the summers, we

38:26

would come back, Reggie, and I would go over the United States and work out with him,

38:28

and then the world there's guys would be out there working

38:30

out with us. So, I mean, yeah, you

38:32

you you learn how to feet

38:35

at a pretty early age. And if

38:37

you catch him passes from

38:40

drains of future, you know, high

38:42

round traffic and hollow tires when trophy water,

38:44

and then Sometimes you even see one moment out there. So it it

38:46

it was yeah. You it it

38:48

was AAA spirit of competition

38:52

but it also taught you, man, you gotta be ready.

38:54

You have to be ready.

38:56

Wow. Yeah. I mean, your

38:58

childhood

39:00

is crazy, unique. You went to

39:02

Willow Ridge High School, which

39:04

was in Houston. Right? And

39:08

so And when you were there in the eighties, I mean, it was

39:10

known for its

39:10

football program and producing a number

39:12

of NFL talents, including yourself.

39:14

Right? because

39:15

OJ was there. Alan

39:18

Aldridge. Alan Aldridge. Alan Aldridge,

39:20

England behind me. But Carmen

39:22

Thomas, you know, who's

39:24

in the hall of fame now,

39:26

old a thermonet and I didn't play football together, interestingly enough,

39:28

we played basketball.

39:30

Yeah. I I couldn't even make the

39:33

the box is about football team that's

39:35

allowed to junior. It was so

39:37

so deep. Wow.

39:40

Wait. You So you

39:41

didn't make the Varsity football team until you were a junior. I did

39:42

I hear that right? Yeah. So I was

39:45

a junior. Yeah. Okay. So

39:48

I

39:48

I moved away. My mom moved to St. Louis

39:50

for a couple years in middle school. So

39:52

I'm really started focusing on

39:55

basketball and baseball. And when

39:57

I came back, I was able

39:59

to play baseball, you know, artsy

40:02

baseball, Charlie,

40:04

and basketball. but our football team was sold all along

40:06

good. I could have played on the Barclay, but I

40:08

wasn't gonna play. I was like, no. Let me go, you

40:10

know, let me go somewhere and I had a a really

40:12

good coach.

40:14

JV coach, Belt and Narcis, who probably should

40:16

have been not gonna coach one. The

40:18

other coach left. But he said,

40:21

look, if you come play for me, I'll really work with you

40:24

and you'll get a lot of chances to

40:26

play. So, hey, I didn't I didn't

40:28

play a Varsity till my junior

40:30

year, but the the sophomore year on on the JV

40:32

probably did me better because I

40:34

experienced. I got the chance to play,

40:36

I learned, And then, you know,

40:38

Garmin did not play basketball

40:40

altogether because I was more of a basketball guy

40:42

when I first you know, and I

40:44

was thinking, I didn't keep growing. You know, I thought I was gonna be about

40:46

6667 and I I

40:48

stopped. So I've become one of the

40:50

perfect positions where we're

40:52

tied in. That's

40:53

great. Well, you know, I would imagine that every

40:56

athlete has one of those stories. I

40:58

mean, Michael Jordan got passed up, you

41:00

know, for making the Varsity team in

41:02

high school. I just had Lindsay Harding,

41:04

former Duke, and former number one

41:06

overall pick. She got passed up with a Nike

41:08

Camp and McDonald's All

41:10

American Game. and

41:12

look what she ended up doing. So, I mean, those those stories are

41:14

are just in the dozens and

41:17

hundreds and thousands. You

41:20

know, talking about your childhood, the

41:22

conversation about your experience

41:26

and and

41:28

race. and how that intersected with your athletic journey.

41:30

So here you

41:31

are in Texas. And

41:32

even though it

41:34

was a bit more diverse, in

41:37

Houston. But nonetheless, it was during the sixties and seventies and eighties a period where

41:39

it was very segregated and also continues

41:41

to be honestly

41:43

segregated in Texas.

41:46

So

41:46

did you feel as though being

41:48

a football player and

41:50

being a really good athlete? Were

41:54

you able to hop some of those

41:56

hop or or

41:57

hurdle or

42:00

chip

42:00

away at those

42:02

barriers that existed because of your

42:04

race being a black child? Yeah.

42:07

I think

42:07

you you

42:10

feel like that you

42:12

can until the confronted you, you

42:14

know, like yeah.

42:16

There's there's always time that you

42:18

think, okay. just just because it's not in my face. I don't

42:20

doesn't mean I don't know us there,

42:22

but I don't go looking for it. Right?

42:24

I never did. But you you knew

42:28

even you know, I can

42:30

remember in high school we were playing the team and, you know, at their place

42:32

and, you know, their guys were

42:34

just going and bombs all over the

42:38

place. on the field first. And, you know, so but

42:40

then the staff started doing

42:42

it. So, you know,

42:46

I'm pretty calm, fully collected, but at a certain point, I go

42:48

to first place and I could hear it because that's on their

42:50

side. And and I was I was gonna go

42:52

in there, dug out, and get a back and go and

42:56

like, culture that come give me and say, look, you know, we we'll

42:58

beat them on the field, which we have to have

43:00

done. And the

43:02

the whole time, you know, I'm thinking, hey, their coach

43:05

is gonna say something to them and his

43:07

fans to tell them to back

43:09

off. It didn't happen. nonetheless, I get back

43:11

to school, and I get a

43:12

letter or something

43:14

from our athletic director, who's

43:16

a white guy, and we always kinda felt

43:18

like we were that I guys

43:20

out because Willow Ridge was a predominantly black school.

43:23

We had some, you know,

43:25

folks with some Hispanics

43:29

a few white kids, but it was

43:31

mainly a black school. The other schools in the

43:33

district were more white. And he sent

43:35

me something that said, you know, I I need

43:37

you to come in and and seek said, you know,

43:40

why I need you to come in and and see

43:42

him. So when I went in, I have one

43:44

of my coaches with me because I was like, okay, I don't know what's gonna happen here.

43:46

He wanted me to

43:48

apologize to the the school and

43:50

the fans for

43:52

my behavior. And I

43:54

said, no. I'm not gonna apologize for

43:56

that because I was there --

43:58

Mhmm. -- and coach understands

43:59

what happened. But if you wanna suspend me or do something like

44:02

that, you can go ahead on to do that. But

44:04

I'm not apologizing for what but

44:06

defending myself or

44:08

my team. And luckily, it

44:10

didn't get to that, but it just it

44:12

made me think, y'all always have to speak up

44:14

for who you are, what you are. I don't

44:16

go looking forward. But if it comes behind me,

44:19

I have no no problem

44:21

dealing with it. Wow.

44:23

Just hearing that.

44:26

That's just that's really it's

44:28

frustrating. It's angry. I must have been hurtful,

44:32

obviously. What

44:34

do you think your childhood would have

44:36

been like growing up in Texas without sports?

44:40

know, I think it still would have been

44:42

good, because I had such AAAAAAA cold

44:45

knit family. You

44:47

know, that that's the one thing too

44:49

that I think about having all my happening on

44:51

my dad at this ten on his side,

44:53

ten brothers and sisters, and my

44:56

mom, six of them altogether. So a

44:58

pretty nice extended family, even though I'm

45:00

only child. So I think even without sports, I would have

45:02

had the luxury of having a lot of

45:04

family and brought up with, you know, in a

45:06

in a

45:08

cool time, with with

45:10

relatives that were, you know, you

45:12

could spend time with, they would, you

45:14

know, treat you really well. And then I

45:16

I think football only had lasted because I got a chance to meet

45:19

other people and and get teammates

45:21

that, you know, you you

45:24

know, and a bomb with for life. I think that was the one

45:26

thing that, you know, plans for

45:28

itself with. See, you

45:30

really think that

45:31

your your general experience your

45:35

general childhood experience would have been the same. But what about you

45:37

as a person and where you are today? How do you think

45:39

you would have how how do you

45:41

think you would be different.

45:44

Maybe, had you not been

45:46

an athlete? You know, it

45:48

made me I got to see things earlier.

45:50

I got to travel more earlier as a athlete.

45:52

Get out of get out of just, you

45:54

know, that space, get the travel

45:56

and, you know, go do things

45:58

that maybe I wouldn't have. if

46:01

I didn't leave and go to UCLA

46:03

from the state of Texas. I don't know.

46:05

I I think it it opened

46:08

doors that maybe would have

46:10

opened later. But I I got

46:12

a chance to see things at

46:14

an early age. You know, at seventeen, I'm

46:16

going off the college in Los Angeles.

46:19

although I had been there before because,

46:21

you know, that here there's the

46:23

other thing that's great about growing up

46:25

in the south. is also you have extended family in

46:28

from Louisiana and Texas that go

46:30

to Los Angeles or California

46:32

because of the

46:34

migration of African American folks that want to get it out of the south, whether it

46:36

was Florida up to New

46:38

York, but I had a big

46:40

contingent of

46:42

family in Northern California and Southern California.

46:44

So I had already been out there going

46:46

up. So when people say, what made

46:48

you wanna go to LA?

46:51

I said, I'd go out there for a couple

46:53

summers and go hang out with my

46:55

cousins and relatives

46:58

in California. you know, in middle school. So I got a chance to see

47:00

California in Madison pretty cool place. If I

47:02

could ever come back here, I would. And I

47:04

ended up going to school

47:06

up here. So, yeah, I

47:08

think I think just from a historical perspective,

47:10

I got to see things earlier.

47:14

So it made me open to to the world and understanding,

47:16

you know, there's there's places

47:18

outside of where you where you actually

47:20

are, where you grow up. I

47:23

think is what taught me. Yeah. It was interesting

47:24

to hear that you you think that you just experienced things

47:26

earlier. I often kind of reflect

47:30

on my

47:32

experience with Thomas. And sometimes

47:34

I kind of pose a question of of

47:36

who I would be

47:38

had i not

47:39

had I not pursued tennis in the way that I

47:42

did in such an intense

47:44

manner. You know, a lot of people

47:46

know that at

47:48

twelve, you know, my mom and I went to the Tennis

47:50

Academy. So my parents weren't divorced,

47:52

but they they split

47:54

up to help you know, allow me

47:56

to pursue my dream in in tennis.

47:58

And of course, I go to this tennis academy. I'm

47:59

training five hours a day. So I

48:02

often wonder,

48:04

I be the person that I am today, and it it helped me

48:06

become much more outspoken

48:08

and much more confident. I mean,

48:11

when I was I think back to myself in Mexico, Missouri, I

48:13

mean, I was I was very gregarious

48:16

and loved friends and I was very social,

48:18

but I was

48:20

extremely shy. I,

48:22

you know, I was, like, very shy.

48:24

I did not have the the

48:26

first word that comes to my mind is balls,

48:28

but gumption. I'll use gumption as a more

48:30

appropriate word. But I feel like today, I have

48:33

so much more gumption compared to -- Yeah. --

48:35

had I not been in sports? And

48:37

so That's that's why I posed

48:39

that question. Yeah. I think I think

48:41

you're right. I think, you know, when you have

48:43

a a certain level

48:46

of confidence, or or the ability to know that you have a voice. I think

48:48

sports gives you a voice.

48:50

Sometimes we we can go the total

48:52

opposite and become

48:54

eager to score with that voice score, we can say, let's use

48:56

it when when we need to. You know? And I I'm

48:58

kinda like you. I'm I'm not

49:01

by nature, I probably was a little

49:04

quieter, a little more reserved. But

49:06

as I got older, I wasn't

49:08

afraid, you know, speak if I saw

49:10

something that I didn't think was right. You

49:12

know, I didn't didn't feel like it was

49:14

good for me. I could say, no. This is

49:16

this is how I view it. Because sometimes people

49:18

want to say what they want

49:20

you to say, and I might not. I

49:22

might not.

49:24

Yeah. So what do you

49:25

what did you learn

49:27

from your transitional period

49:29

in leading football. What did

49:31

you learn from that whole period in your

49:33

late twenties?

49:35

I learned that how

49:37

to

49:39

reinvent yourself and how

49:41

to, you know,

49:43

not think so much about what

49:45

you do as who you are But

49:48

what what what's inside of you?

49:50

You know, how you how you can

49:52

evolve? I think that's a big I

49:54

tell people that a certain a certain evolution of things that

49:56

you have to do in life. And

49:59

you

49:59

don't always You don't

50:01

always know when you're gonna have to evolve,

50:03

but you have to be ready to evolve. I think

50:05

it's what that

50:07

taught me. Mhmm. how long do

50:09

you think that reinventing

50:13

process

50:13

lasted for

50:14

you? It's still going on. I mean,

50:16

I don't think I don't think it ever

50:19

stopped. Yeah. Yeah. III

50:21

don't know. I think I've

50:24

been cognizant enough to

50:26

know,

50:27

there but they're you

50:28

probably have to just kinda keep doing some self reflection

50:30

and evaluation periodically because

50:33

if you don't, the

50:36

same thing can happen to you or you can get

50:38

caught in that cycle. Right? And

50:40

so, no, I I think I'm I'm I

50:42

know I

50:44

consistently still think, okay, what am I doing? How is this

50:46

working? I I have to constantly do

50:48

that. I think it's that's what has taught

50:52

to be cognizant of things around you, but also

50:54

things within yourself? Such

50:56

a great

50:57

answer. I I agree with everything that you

50:59

just said. I think it's

51:02

continuous process of constant --

51:04

Mhmm. -- self reflection and

51:06

being aware, trying to figure out where you are

51:08

in life, where you wanna go.

51:10

And I think oftentimes in

51:12

today's society, especially with the younger generation,

51:14

we I feel as though

51:16

they feel the pressure to make

51:18

a decision and to kind of stick with

51:20

it. But it's I

51:22

don't know if

51:23

they think it's forever. But, I mean, we live

51:25

in a at least from a

51:27

professional standpoint. I mean, the job market

51:29

is so much more volatile than it was many years ago. Yeah. Yeah.

51:30

You know? And so I think we

51:32

have to have the permission and

51:34

freedom that

51:37

It's one thing we have to know how to

51:39

be committed to something, but then

51:41

also fluid -- Yeah.

51:43

--

51:43

because we're always evolving.

51:45

Well, and I think COVID taught us too how you have

51:47

to make sure you're you're you're really

51:50

flexible. You know, I think what's funny

51:52

is people like, oh, that never

51:54

happened. But it was. It was a time where we had

51:56

to all kinda figure out

51:58

changes and do one different thing. I mean, it's

52:00

kinda what

52:02

made me out of podcasts, just talking to people like you and other

52:04

friends because we couldn't get

52:06

out and we weren't able to go and Zoom

52:08

became a lot of our best friends, but

52:10

it also

52:12

allowed us a chance to do some self reflection and then

52:14

and interest section of

52:15

things that what we do on everything that

52:17

we needed to and that we need

52:20

to change some

52:21

of those things. Mhmm. Yeah.

52:22

Next

52:23

week, I

52:24

am going to visit a university

52:26

and talk to their athletic staff.

52:30

And the conversation is is focused on care and care

52:32

for student athletes. And so with

52:34

regards to just the transition and

52:38

leading sport,

52:38

the sport what

52:40

do you think you would have told?

52:42

What would you tell your twenty

52:44

seven year old self?

52:47

as you were on the cusp of

52:49

leaving football. What would you have wanted

52:51

to know? That's

52:52

a good that's a good

52:54

question and a good thought. And I

52:57

think it's it becomes now what I what

52:59

I would have told my twenty three year

53:01

old, so for twenty two as

53:03

I was leaving. college. Right?

53:06

Because as I was leaving

53:08

college, I'm thinking I'm gonna be a first

53:10

round pick into that being a fifth round

53:12

pick, get cut, have to work through the

53:14

process of making a

53:16

team and then making a team. What I

53:18

would have told my twenty

53:20

seven is twenty eight year old self is,

53:22

you know, don't just

53:24

say you're preparing for life

53:26

after football or tennis or golf,

53:28

but really be vigilant about how

53:30

you do it. like, you can go get internships and

53:33

try to fool everybody else on

53:35

the outside, but really

53:38

be thinking, how your plan

53:40

b your plan c is gonna look

53:42

because you may play the

53:44

athletes you're gonna talk to. Some of them will get

53:46

the opportunity to play much longer

53:48

past college. But quite

53:50

a few of them are that's where it's gonna

53:52

end. So making sure that you're

53:54

preparing for that and

53:55

using that time where

53:58

you had as a college athlete to leverage yourself to get

53:59

into the next job that you're gonna

54:02

do. And

54:04

really being honest, because I

54:05

don't know if I wasn't really

54:07

honest with myself that it was gonna ever

54:09

end or when it was gonna end,

54:11

you know. Yeah. I think

54:14

that that would yeah. That was the

54:16

issue for me. Yeah.

54:17

So be really being honest with ourselves. And I

54:19

think that's the

54:20

toughest part. That's the toughest part.

54:22

They're finding people around you

54:24

that will unfortunately

54:25

to do that. You know, don't because

54:27

I think what happens is we get escalated

54:30

that. We've got a lot of yes people. A

54:32

lot of yes people to tell you, you're great.

54:34

You do see that. having somebody

54:36

that can challenge you and say, okay. No. This is what

54:38

you have to do or this is

54:40

where we how

54:42

much time you may have or you might not

54:44

have. So are you doing these things? You really have AAA

54:46

coach with that post

54:50

post transition?

54:51

Yeah. Well, that's

54:54

where the next chapter academy is going to

54:56

come into play. So we

54:58

Right. can create a staff, so we can help coach

55:00

athletes through this and veterans and

55:02

whoever else that that needs that kind of

55:04

help. But Seabook, as always, it's

55:08

it's been such an honor to hear your story. I appreciate

55:10

you opening up and and going

55:12

deep and and dealing with

55:15

all my questions. But where can people

55:17

find you this upcoming season? Yeah.

55:20

I'll be on ESPN and

55:21

some other platforms doing

55:23

college football game. some

55:25

maybe thumbnail Twitter, thumbnail Instagram,

55:28

all the social media channels. I'll I'll

55:30

probably post on everything there. But,

55:32

yeah, I'll first week

55:34

of the season, I have UNC

55:36

at App State, which should be a great game up in

55:38

both. Fine. Yeah. So

55:40

now I'm looking forward to it. This should be a

55:42

great season. That's

55:42

awesome. We'll see you. But thank you so much for coming on. We really

55:45

appreciate it, and it's an honor. I hope you

55:47

can come back on the show sometime.

55:50

Alright. Thanks a lot, Trevor. Really hope

55:52

you enjoyed today's

55:53

conversation. For more episodes, just

55:55

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55:57

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