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to the next chapter presented by Baron

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week, we continue the transparent conversation

1:01

series, a nationwide multi city

1:04

multi university tour addressing

1:06

student athlete, mental health, and well-being

1:08

such an important topic, where I,

1:11

the host and advisor, is helping

1:13

to lead these conversations with different

1:15

panelists and different topics

1:17

in different locations since all being

1:19

powered by LG Electronics USA.

1:22

So we began this series talking about

1:25

the stressors of the modern student

1:27

athlete experience. And this week,

1:29

we're talking about the consequences of

1:32

those stressors, including the mental health implications.

1:35

So this is part two with Anna Callahan,

1:37

a current Duke Women's lacrosse player, Katzem

1:39

former member of the Duke Women's Lacrosse

1:41

team, and Ethan Phillips, student at

1:44

UNC, also the vice president, for

1:46

health and wellness on UNC System Association

1:49

of Student Government Executive Board.

1:52

Now in this episode. We do discuss

1:54

some sensitive topics and issues, including

1:56

suicidality, which could trigger

1:59

anyone listening to this conversation.

2:01

So I wanted to include an important

2:03

disclaimer and trigger warning. So if

2:05

you or someone else you know is in

2:07

need of help or having disturbing thoughts

2:10

or having thoughts of hurting or harming

2:12

others or are having suicidal thoughts.

2:14

You can call 988

2:17

which is the new three digit dialing code

2:19

will route callers to the National suicide

2:21

prevention lifeline. That's 988

2:23

and they will be able to help you and also direct

2:25

you to other resources. including a

2:27

mental health counselor.

2:30

So here is part

2:32

two of the LG transparent conversations

2:34

with Anna, Kat, and Ethan,

2:36

overall East campus at Duke University

2:39

in Durham, North Carolina.

2:52

door is closed. We're locked.

2:53

You guys cannot run

2:56

or walk away. There's no turning

2:58

back now. There is no turning

3:00

back.

3:01

how many freshmen do you think

3:03

are hearing this maybe? And they're

3:05

still sleeping from last night's Halloween

3:07

extravaganza. Okay. because Anna is

3:09

here and she has had about ten coffee

3:11

straws to get your boys

3:13

all ready to go. How many how many freshmen

3:15

are we waking up right now? Definitely

3:17

the They're all It's all

3:20

being woken up right now. It's gonna

3:21

be amazing. Alright. Well,

3:23

welcome everybody to LG Conversations

3:26

our nationwide multi city, multi

3:28

university tour in mini

3:30

series addressing student athlete mental

3:32

health and well-being, and it's all being powered

3:35

by LG Electronics USA.

3:38

So my name is Prim I

3:40

will be your host and moderator

3:42

for today's amazing event

3:44

and discussion. For those that don't know me, just

3:46

for a little context, I was a member of the Duke

3:48

Women's tennis team from ninety nine to two thousand

3:51

three. Yes. I'm dating

3:53

myself. It was a long time ago.

3:55

But during that period, we

3:57

did clench the program's first ever national

3:59

title. And afterwards,

4:02

thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And I and

4:04

everybody else. And afterwards, I

4:06

went into the sports broadcasting but after

4:08

about eighteen years or so,

4:10

I have begun to make the transition

4:13

towards the mental health space. So today,

4:15

I'm a PhD student in the counseling

4:17

psychology program at University. And

4:20

my whole goal and much of my research focuses

4:22

on helping the athlete population and

4:24

everybody who is in and around sports.

4:27

So today marks

4:29

the second of many episodes

4:31

of these LG transparent Conversations.

4:34

And each panel discussion is

4:36

going to address different topics. So

4:38

yesterday, we talked about stressors of the

4:40

modern student at experience. And

4:43

today, we're gonna touch on the consequences of

4:46

those student athlete stressors.

4:48

Okay? Joining us for this very

4:49

important important

4:50

conversation today. We have Anna Callahan,

4:53

Duke Women's Lacrosse Player, and founding

4:55

member of the ambassador program.

4:57

of Morgan's message, an initiative

5:00

aimed at eliminating the stigma surrounding

5:02

mental health, especially within the student

5:04

athlete community. Ethan we've

5:06

had some conversations before. It's

5:08

so nice to finally see you in person. I know

5:11

you've had, you know, some cough

5:13

drops. So hopefully your voice is ready to

5:15

go. Yeah. No. My voice is definitely

5:17

ready to go. I promise my voice normally sounds

5:19

like this, but I love the atmosphere.

5:21

no, I'm so excited to be here. Thank you so

5:23

much for having me on. It's gonna be an awesome

5:25

experience, and I can't wait to hear all the

5:27

questions and have such an awesome conversation

5:29

with all these people. Super stoked to have

5:31

you here. And now we

5:33

have Kat Zempolich,

5:36

former Duke Women's LG Crosstler who graduated

5:38

in two thousand eighteen, also co founder

5:40

and director of podcasting for

5:43

Morgan's message. And, it's so

5:45

great to have you here. And last

5:47

but certainly not least we have Phillips.

5:49

He is a senior at UNC, the

5:51

vice president for health and wellness on

5:53

the UNC System Association of

5:56

Student Government's Executive Ethan.

5:58

He's worked in the field of community

6:00

based mental health advocacy

6:02

for many years. And of

6:04

course, For those that cannot see

6:06

us and they're listening to us, we are here

6:08

on the East campus side of

6:10

Duke University. So one might

6:12

be wondering why in the world

6:14

Duke we have at Ariel joining this

6:16

Conversations the whole it's

6:19

less about where we are

6:21

and about more about what we are doing. And obviously,

6:23

when we're talking about mental health, there

6:25

are no rivalries. There are no enemies. Right?

6:27

This is all about being inclusive. And

6:29

Ethan, we want to welcome you, and thank

6:32

you for coming and and joining us.

6:34

Thanks

6:34

so much, Premise. It's great to be here Ethan

6:37

on Blue Devils campus and

6:39

really grateful for this opportunity and

6:41

the conversation that we're going to

6:42

have. I see you wearing two different

6:45

shades of blue. So I can recognize that you

6:47

probably were a little conflicted over

6:49

what you wanted to do if you really wanted to

6:51

represent the

6:51

star heel or not. I still have my carolotta

6:53

blue on, and, yeah,

6:55

I don't own a lot of royal blue. So

6:57

I'm not. Alright. Fantastic.

7:00

Alright. So The goal for today, the

7:02

topic today is obviously talking

7:04

about the consequences and effects

7:06

of these stressors. And these

7:08

stressors obviously can have a wide

7:11

range of effects, including, you know,

7:13

just general mental health consequences and

7:15

implications. So Before we move

7:17

forward with today's conversation, I think it's really

7:19

important, right, that we put a disclaimer on

7:21

today's conversation because we are going to

7:23

be talking about some sensitive topics as

7:25

it relates to mental health, including suicide,

7:28

which could trigger anyone listening to

7:30

this conversation. So if

7:32

you or someone you know is in need

7:34

of help or having thoughts of hurting or harming

7:36

themselves or are having suicidal

7:38

thoughts. You can also you can call

7:41

nine eighty eight, which is the new three digit

7:43

dialing code that will route callers to the

7:45

national suicide prevention lifeline.

7:47

For student athletes here on

7:50

Duke campus. You can reach out to Dr. Sean

7:52

Zeppelin and others in the behavioral

7:54

health group within the Duke athletic staff.

7:56

And of course, there's also caps. Dukes counseling

7:58

and psychological

7:59

services, which is nine nineteen

8:02

6601 thousand, which

8:04

is located on the third floor of the

8:06

student wellness center on West campus

8:08

next to Phillips. So

8:11

if you have any questions, concerns,

8:13

you feel like you need some help or you feel like

8:15

you know somebody that needs help. Right?

8:17

We want you to get

8:17

those resources.

8:18

And just so also

8:20

another disclaimer. For myself, we're going to be

8:22

talking about a lot of mental health issues. I think

8:24

sometimes people look at me they think,

8:26

oh, because PRIM is has been in space.

8:29

She's a psychologist. I am not a psychologist

8:31

yet. I have two or three more years.

8:33

So in my third year, So

8:35

everything that I'm speaking about today is more

8:37

anecdotal and coming from my own

8:39

experience and the things that I've learned. But

8:41

again, if you need help, you know,

8:43

you need you have somebody that needs

8:45

help reach out to the appropriate

8:47

sources and find a mental

8:49

health clinician. Okay.

8:52

I'm tired

8:53

of talking. It's time to bring you guys up.

8:56

Continuing the conversation from yesterday, when

8:58

you think about the stressors, of the

9:00

student athlete experience or even just being a

9:02

general student. What

9:03

comes to mind?

9:05

Anna? Yeah. I would say the

9:08

expectations surrounding perfection,

9:10

especially at Duke. There is this

9:12

major, major stigma around Duke

9:14

students, Duke athletes to be perfect.

9:16

And I think that's the biggest thing that I've

9:18

struggled with over my time at Duke. I

9:20

know

9:20

a lot of other student athletes and regular

9:23

students here on campus struggle with that same

9:25

thing. thought

9:25

that you have to be put together all the

9:27

time, be

9:28

doing everything under the sun to be a successful

9:30

person. Sometimes being a

9:32

successful person is just taking care of

9:34

yourself and doing the things that you

9:36

really value as a person. So

9:38

I think that's something that's really important to note.

9:40

Those expectations can be really, really

9:42

hard. on people on Duke Duke's

9:45

campus specifically. Yeah. Yeah. I

9:47

can definitely relate to that, Kath. Do you

9:49

feel do you feel that same

9:51

pressure maybe? Yeah. And I

9:53

think I think when you boil it down to,

9:55

there's different pockets of

9:57

expectations you place on yourself, so not

9:59

all only, like, from the

9:59

student athlete perspective. It's

10:02

excelling within athletics. It's

10:04

excelling in the classroom. It's

10:06

having a bunch of friends and it can community.

10:08

It's being involved outside of

10:11

your sport and your academics because,

10:13

like, for for us female

10:15

student athletes, there isn't most of the

10:17

time, like life after collegiate

10:20

sports. And so it's how are you building your

10:22

resume now to there's just so

10:24

many stressors And

10:26

I think it comes down to the expectations

10:29

that we feel are being placed on

10:31

us from either our parents

10:33

or society, and then we place them on

10:35

ourselves. And then we feel like we can't hit

10:37

them or if we're hitting two out of three, it's still

10:39

not enough. It's almost like it's never.

10:41

That's such a good point, I mean, you're right. I think

10:43

for females, I I think the

10:45

the

10:45

path towards pro level

10:47

sports has changed and Ethan

10:49

gotten better for the better for women,

10:51

but still I think there is kind of this thought in

10:53

the back of your mind, like, well, it's

10:56

a tough path. You know, I think most likely

10:58

after college, I'm going to retire. So in some

11:00

ways, that's interesting that you say that and

11:02

so true. I felt that. So do you feel

11:04

like there's, like, you're you're on a clock?

11:06

almost like once you get here, it's like time's running

11:08

out. I gotta kinda shift through. Yeah.

11:10

I think you hit hit junior year and a

11:12

lot of people are looking at, like,

11:15

junior some are going to senior year

11:17

internships, and it's like that's the next thing that you have

11:19

to hit. And if you don't hit that, then

11:21

it's like, what am I doing senior year? And you

11:23

kind of feel like you're on a

11:25

lifeboat where it's the last year

11:27

of freedom until real

11:29

world hits. And it's even more expectations

11:31

are are piled on. It's no longer I feel

11:33

like excelling at school because classes, at

11:35

least in my experience, were

11:37

easier. My senior year because I'd gotten

11:39

all my normal recs out. But then it was Duke,

11:41

oh god. What

11:42

am I doing next? Like, I everyone's

11:45

getting jobs in finance and

11:47

consulting, and I don't know what I wanna do. And they

11:49

all seem like they have it figured out. And we

11:51

weren't having at least within, like,

11:53

migrated weren't having these conversations about,

11:55

like, how scared we were for the

11:57

next step in, like, how the unknown

11:59

was affecting us mentally.

12:02

Mhmm.

12:02

And and you are now four

12:04

years removed from graduating from

12:07

Duke. three or four years at this point. So

12:09

at least you just have a little bit of context. You

12:11

can look reflect back on your experience and

12:13

maybe some of these things come to fruition

12:15

for you. And Ethan, you're a senior, so I

12:17

would imagine as an upperclassman, you're

12:19

kinda going through that that thought

12:21

process of, like, okay, what am I

12:23

going to do next? And so

12:25

Anna and Kat kind of talked about this

12:27

perfectionism, this expectation

12:29

and level of pressure. Do

12:31

you feel that that same

12:33

energy sometimes over at Chapel

12:35

Hill? Absolutely.

12:36

I think that's almost

12:39

universal to the college

12:41

experience that there will be

12:43

these outside pressures whether

12:46

you feel like you have to put them on yourself

12:48

or you see your friends excelling at such a

12:50

high level to

12:52

want to succeed beyond college and

12:54

and get worried about what

12:56

comes next. You know, for most

12:59

college students' lives leading up

13:01

to this point, everything

13:03

was about getting into college. And

13:06

What is that gonna look like? Where am I gonna

13:08

go? Am I going

13:10

to find the right people and

13:12

and connect in the way that I

13:14

want to my campus. And then suddenly, it

13:16

it broadens up very

13:18

quickly of where am I going from

13:20

here. And then add on top of that for

13:22

student at fleets also having

13:24

to keep up

13:26

with the high

13:28

level of expectations in the

13:30

lock a room and and on the field. And

13:32

I think it can very easily boil

13:34

over and and produce

13:36

burnout. What

13:38

is the conversation among

13:40

your peers about how

13:42

these stressors are affecting

13:45

everybody. And you can even speak from your own

13:47

experience because that's the topic of the Conversations,

13:49

today. It's okay, now we're beginning

13:51

to identify some of these pressures.

13:53

And all of you really just talked about just

13:55

the general expectation and pressure, which

13:57

is funny because it's not like something that

13:59

you can you can feel or

14:01

you can feel it, but you can't touch it, you

14:03

can't measure it. Right?

14:05

And so it's this general kind

14:07

of cloud that's hovering over

14:10

us. So how do all of these

14:12

things affect student

14:14

athletes and also students? Yeah.

14:17

No. I would say those expectations can

14:19

be really hard on people. But again, it's that

14:22

everyone walks around pretending that they have

14:24

everything put together. And I think it was a lot

14:26

worse, maybe when I was like a junior or a

14:28

sophomore. But now that I'm

14:30

a grad student, I go to Fuqua,

14:32

it's very interesting because everyone

14:34

right now is looking for jobs

14:36

and you have people graduating or talking about

14:38

maybe getting their MBA, doing all

14:40

these different things. So I think really

14:43

difficult, but people are

14:43

a lot more open about being, like,

14:45

I'm really stressed out. Like, honestly, like,

14:47

everyone's talking about jobs. I don't know what

14:49

I wanna do. Like, you go to

14:52

it's like this pipeline from the MMS

14:54

certificate to consulting. Like,

14:56

everyone goes to consulting or finance. I

14:58

don't really wanna do consulting or

15:00

finance. So it's

15:01

it's been this very interesting battle

15:03

of listening to people talk about

15:06

these jobs and these internships, but

15:08

a lot of

15:08

people are very much pretty open

15:11

with these stressors and listening to

15:13

my friends that are underclassman on

15:14

the team too, some

15:16

juniors are talking about those internships

15:18

that Kat was mentioning, and

15:20

that's very stressful for them, and they openly

15:22

talk about how stress they are. And that's

15:24

new. I didn't see that before maybe

15:26

a couple of years ago. And I think this

15:29

conversation around mental health and it's

15:31

okay to not have everything put

15:33

together from all these conversations about

15:35

mental health has really benefited

15:37

individuals, especially at Duke. Maybe the

15:39

people you don't know, you're not as Duke,

15:41

open about maybe your struggles,

15:43

but I think it's very interesting because

15:46

my close friends are more open to

15:48

talking about these things now. And I feel

15:49

like I've benefited a lot from that as

15:51

well. So I think that's been awesome. Yeah. There's

15:53

certainly a benefit and advantage

15:56

and it

15:57

people together when you're just more vulnerable

15:59

and you're

15:59

listen, this is this is

16:02

really rough. So I'm

16:04

curious, do you think that's a thing that changes

16:07

as you become an upperclassman where

16:09

people are just more comfortable in

16:11

their skin? Or do you It has to

16:13

do with maybe what's going on with people

16:15

Conversations. And, and Ethan, you

16:17

can chime in here. I

16:19

I think as you get older and

16:21

you get more comfortable, you're then

16:24

able to kinda stand firmly

16:26

in, like, what you want, what you believe,

16:28

and who you are.

16:30

And in my experience,

16:31

being on a team, like, the

16:34

upperclassman kind of set the tone

16:36

for

16:37

how come what's being talked about, how

16:39

it's being talked about. Right? Like, coming in

16:41

wide eyed bushy tail freshman

16:44

who's, like, puts girls on a

16:46

pedestal and you're kinda I wanna be like that when

16:48

I'm a senior. You really value what they

16:50

say. So it's a trickled

16:52

down effect. I think

16:54

in in my experience it was of

16:56

having those types of conversations

16:59

and, like, to Anna's point, they weren't

17:01

being

17:01

had openly. I would say they were being

17:03

had in in not a bad way,

17:05

but Duke corners of the room, right,

17:08

between like two or three people. You felt

17:10

like someone understood what you were going through.

17:12

You could go to them. You could talk about it. But

17:14

it wasn't something that you wanted to share

17:16

with forty other girls. Like, that

17:18

felt really scary. That felt,

17:20

like, you know, you could be judged and I

17:22

also think another thing, especially

17:24

going to Duke, a lot of

17:26

times I felt like

17:27

because my stress manifested in a lot

17:30

of anxiety, and I also struggled

17:32

with depression. And it felt like

17:34

I have everything. Right? Like on

17:36

paper, I'm a student athlete at Duke

17:38

University. I, you know,

17:40

play ones across something that

17:42

only

17:42

thirty to forty girls a year can say that they're

17:45

playing. And, like, we have probably, what, like, a

17:47

hundred and fifty, maybe, like, girls to

17:49

the program, whatever. But Right? Like, you

17:51

feel like on paper, you have all this stuff. Like, why

17:54

why do I feel this way? It's not fair

17:56

when other people are struggling with

17:58

things that are way worse. And that,

18:00

I think, forces you to kinda lock

18:02

it inside a little bit more because

18:04

you feel like it's unjustifiable, like,

18:07

as a young kid. with

18:09

really I

18:09

feel like the lack

18:10

of yeah. I

18:12

think it's it's from that

18:14

too. Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense. And

18:16

thank you so much for sharing that and being

18:18

so open your own struggles and the

18:20

internal processes. And I think that it

18:22

does. It kinda happens. I think that happens

18:24

a lot to to not

18:26

only just a lot of student athletes, but it happens to people

18:28

in general. Right? It's happened to me where

18:30

it's like, well, I I certainly

18:32

come from a place of privilege,

18:35

and I have all these resources

18:37

and finances. So why am I

18:39

struggling? And for me, I've been pretty public about

18:41

it. But when I was here, certainly kind

18:43

of symptoms of depression or Duke

18:46

dealing being certainly anxious,

18:48

but I developed really

18:50

an eating disorder when I was seventeen

18:52

or eighteen years old right as I

18:54

was being recruited for all the

18:57

universities. I went through this

18:59

I suffered

18:59

two stress fractures in my back. So it was a really

19:02

critical period because I was like,

19:02

oh my gosh. I'm not gonna get recruited if

19:04

people find out about my injury and all

19:06

this other stuff. so that became kind

19:08

of Duke my coping mechanism. And then

19:11

as I went to college, it kind of fluctuated,

19:13

but then that becomes like your

19:15

your safety lens. Like, okay, this is my way of coping.

19:17

And so much of eating disorders

19:19

or disordered eating behaviors is kinda

19:22

locking in and

19:24

not wanting to share

19:27

any of your struggles inside.

19:29

So thank you for for sharing that. And

19:31

even when we're talking about all of these

19:34

things, any thoughts come to mind in terms

19:36

of, obviously, the

19:38

stress and expectations. It's different

19:40

for everybody. But then the output

19:42

and how we're opening up and sharing

19:44

it with others is seems to

19:46

be more difficult in terms of

19:48

it coming out. Yeah,

19:50

absolutely.

19:50

I mean, asking for help is so

19:52

important, but it's also the hardest part.

19:55

for anyone, but especially

19:57

students who feel like they have to have everything

19:59

put together and put on that persona

20:02

of of perfection. I

20:05

think I like Anna's point that

20:07

this is becoming a little bit more

20:09

common. I think for upperclassmen

20:12

especially, you know, there's more of a

20:14

developed support structure, whether

20:16

it's your teammates or friends that you may have had

20:18

for two or three years now. These

20:20

are people that you feel a little bit

20:23

more comfortable going to and opening up

20:25

with. So it can be very,

20:27

very hard for first and second year

20:29

students to have that same

20:31

kind of support structure especially student athletes

20:33

that may not be coming to

20:35

school, to college with many

20:37

friends from from high school.

20:40

they may be coming as the only student

20:42

from their high school and maybe from their

20:44

entire area.

20:46

So I think coming in as a first year with

20:49

zero support structure

20:51

is such a hard

20:53

reality for so many students and

20:55

so many student fleets. Beyond

20:58

moving through college and becoming

21:01

more comfortable with your friends and

21:03

support structures, I think also

21:05

the pandemic has really impacted people's willingness

21:07

to be open about our experiences

21:09

and feelings and emotions.

21:12

the pandemic has affected everyone. And we all

21:14

knew just how hard it was to go

21:17

through months of

21:19

isolation, away from our friends, away from

21:21

our campuses, So

21:23

people were a little bit more Phillips, at

21:25

least I saw in my experience coming

21:27

back to campus to talk about how hard

21:29

that was, and maybe

21:32

feelings that we went through during that time.

21:34

And still now Ethan the pandemic

21:36

continues to affect students in a lot

21:38

of ways. And asking

21:41

for a little bit more grace and flexibility

21:43

while also being a little more

21:45

willing to to talk about it.

21:47

And you

21:48

know, when we were all talking beforehand, just kind of during our

21:50

preproduction meeting, I know you had mentioned, hey, is it

21:52

okay if we talk about the pandemic? I'm

21:55

absolutely nothing is off the table. And

21:57

if you think that's something that's really important,

21:59

and it is because I think in our heads,

22:01

it's Duke, okay, well, COVID's floating around,

22:03

and we just have to figure

22:05

out a way to navigate this.

22:07

You wear a mask. You don't wear a mask. You get facts.

22:09

You don't get facts. I mean, it's just Duke

22:11

this crazy slew of things.

22:14

And,

22:14

but you're right, I think that

22:18

universities and athletes and

22:19

students and just people, families, me as

22:21

a mom and a wife, I'm Duke still trying to figure it

22:23

out. I mean, it was so hard. So when

22:25

we're talking about the pandemic and how it effect

22:27

affected just general mental health for students

22:29

and student athletes, what comes to

22:32

mind for you

22:32

both, Anna and Duke. I mean,

22:34

what comes to mind for me is I think it gave

22:36

a lot of

22:37

people, and I know we talked about this before in

22:39

the preproduction meeting as well.

22:41

It's really difficult for student athletes

22:43

to identify as anything but a student

22:45

or an athlete. And I think it gave

22:48

people a really nice period of

22:50

maybe rediscovery finding some

22:52

maybe talents they didn't know they had,

22:55

discovering hobbies they really like, maybe

22:57

getting into things that they

22:59

weren't into or I think it gave

23:01

people an awesome period of

23:03

time to really find ways to

23:05

identify outside of just a student or

23:07

an athlete. And I think the

23:09

pandemic was really hard as we

23:11

just spoke about kind of the isolation and

23:13

everything that comes with it. I

23:15

think it gave people kind of

23:17

just, you know, looking for the silver lining

23:20

there. Awesome opportunity to

23:22

really find other ways to identify

23:24

themselves. But I would say that isolation period was

23:26

really difficult, especially for

23:28

student athletes who, you know, wanna

23:30

practice their sport and get better. Maybe

23:32

you athletes basketball indoors and they

23:35

need a gym or volleyball players. It was

23:37

definitely hard for people to get their reps

23:39

in and and people that need to play

23:41

tennis, you have to play with other people.

23:43

How how can you play with other people when

23:45

you literally had to lift

23:47

outside in masks, and we we

23:49

had to lift individually and spray every

23:51

surface down. We had to run literally in,

23:53

like, boxes next to one another we

23:56

came back six feet apart at all

23:58

times. Like, it was

24:00

crazy. And I think that was really hard for

24:02

people not to be able to do the thing that they loved,

24:04

which is their sport. So I

24:06

think that was pretty difficult.

24:07

Yeah. It it was like trying to find

24:09

a new

24:10

normal -- Yeah. -- and it's

24:12

trying to train

24:14

and a new normal. Like, it's

24:16

just, like, running in a box which

24:18

is insane. Yeah. I know that coaches and

24:21

different programs. I mean, the

24:23

the athletes at the pro level were were

24:25

I don't wanna say they were totally fine and and

24:27

diminish any struggles that they went through. But they have

24:29

all the financial resources in world. I mean, proteins

24:31

were sending literally sending just

24:34

weights and in all this

24:36

fitness equipment to these Duke plates

24:38

homes and they had most of them have a gym.

24:40

Mhmm. But then for for collegiate

24:42

athletes, I mean, some people

24:44

were on campus. They had to be quarantine, some

24:46

were at home, some got sick,

24:48

then it, you know, disrupts. And then

24:50

depending on your sport and your

24:53

access to resources, you're right.

24:55

I mean, you know, some basketball

24:57

players because, you know, the basketball

24:59

courts are everywhere. That's probably a little

25:01

bit more accessible. But then for other sports,

25:03

it wasn't wasn't really there. I will tell you it

25:05

definitely challenged people's creativity. That's

25:07

definitely how you were. And we literally

25:09

weren't allowed to pick up the La Crosstaza

25:11

with our hands. like, that's happening. Like, when

25:13

we would go out and get extra reps, when we

25:15

got back to school, and, like, they sold a

25:17

bunch of COVID protocols in place.

25:19

we literally were not allowed to pick up

25:21

tennis balls because we play tennis balls

25:24

sometimes or the cross balls we weren't allowed to touch

25:26

them with their hands. Like, it got

25:28

to a point of, like, we really had to get creative with

25:30

how we were gonna train. And I think

25:32

that was really

25:32

beneficial for some people. It it really pushed them

25:34

to be more creative. And I think

25:36

that

25:36

goes back to finding

25:39

the different hobbies that make you really

25:41

happy and that allow you to identify

25:43

outside of student and athlete. I think it

25:45

forced people to get creative, which I

25:47

think was a unique experience. Obviously,

25:50

COVID was horrible and I would never

25:52

want to minimize Ethan, but

25:54

it really

25:54

provided people with an opportunity that

25:57

know,

25:57

a lot of people I feel like took advantage of. Yeah. So some of these stressors

25:59

could

25:59

actually there could be, in some ways, a

26:02

different or even Duke positive

26:04

outcome depending on what happens. And

26:06

so in many ways it allowed maybe

26:08

students and student athletes to explore who

26:10

they are beyond just the

26:13

the university identity and

26:15

beyond that university setting.

26:17

But then other aspects of it, certainly

26:19

Ethan isolation not

26:21

being able to train. And Kat Duke, you

26:23

were probably just graduate oh,

26:26

you had graduated. So you were kind of transitioning

26:28

in just the workforce, but what your

26:30

thoughts and your sister is now a

26:32

member of the women's lacrosse team? So what

26:34

are your thoughts on just how the pandemic

26:37

affected everybody? Yeah.

26:39

I mean, I don't think

26:42

the world has ever seen something

26:44

that's on a mass level affected

26:46

every single individual individual in some

26:49

way. I was in New

26:51

York and my dad drove

26:53

up in the middle of the night, picked me up

26:55

because there Duke, all these rumors flying

26:57

around. The bridges are gonna close, which,

26:59

like,

26:59

whatever. But, you know, he

27:01

he, like, not happens. Yeah. He, like, picked me

27:03

up because my biggest fear was isolated in

27:05

a two bedroom, five story

27:07

walk up and not being able to

27:09

get food, get water, and

27:12

like I I need a support

27:14

system. And so he picked me

27:16

up. I watched my sister, her

27:18

freshman year, just get yanked out of school and

27:20

kinda was just waiting for that email of, like, oh,

27:22

we're going back. Maybe we'll

27:23

go back next week, maybe the week after and

27:25

watching her kind of shift from

27:28

just getting comfortable in

27:30

an environment like Duke to all of a

27:32

sudden being back home

27:34

it's it's hard. And watching that

27:36

was really hard. I mean, I think what came

27:38

out of it for us was like we got

27:40

so much valuable bonding time. I

27:42

mean, my parents probably say it was too

27:44

much because there were four kids, four

27:46

adult children in the house, but

27:49

it it it really showed me the

27:51

power of connectivity and the power

27:53

of a support system. And, like, when you have

27:56

people in your corner who

27:58

when you have a bad day can pick you up and

27:59

when they have a bad day you can pick

28:02

them up, And I think it just

28:04

kind of

28:05

for me, at least, I had had a few months

28:07

out of business

28:08

school and in business school, I wasn't playing

28:10

a sport. So I did have to find out who

28:12

I was outside of my sport, but also for

28:14

for someone like my sister who all of

28:16

a sudden was Duke, wait. I kind of have to

28:18

figure out

28:19

other things to do. like, I'm

28:21

not in practice three hours a day. I think it just

28:23

speeds up the process of graduating

28:25

because ultimately, everyone

28:27

kinda has to find something, and I think

28:29

that's found that to be a rolling

28:31

process. I mean,

28:32

as a mom, I feel like it's like you

28:35

go working real, possibly, you

28:37

know, whatever path you wanna go,

28:39

to figure out who you are outside of being a

28:41

a wife, a mother, an

28:43

employee for a company, and I think it's

28:45

Duke cyclical and the earlier you can

28:48

learn those skills and those

28:50

hobbies and those things you can come back to to

28:52

center yourself, the

28:54

better. And I think the pandemic

28:56

offered a unique opportunity

28:58

to do that in a sense. Yeah. Oh

29:00

my gosh. You're such great

29:02

insight. You're gonna be if or when

29:04

you ever become a wife or a mom, you're gonna get it down past. Because I

29:06

feel like I'm still spinning my wheels. I'm like, oh,

29:08

my identity was always being a mom and all

29:10

those other stuff. That's such it

29:13

really is such fantastic insight.

29:15

And so interesting to hear the both of

29:17

you, Katen, Katen and

29:19

Anna, talk about the pandemic.

29:21

And so it starts off about when

29:23

you're describing it, it starts off, oh, this is really tough,

29:25

but then both of you actually pinpointed

29:27

the silver lining. For

29:30

you, it was the connectivity, and

29:34

relationships for you. It was a creativity,

29:37

Anna. So Ethan, let's

29:39

let's show the other side of it because

29:41

I know a lot of the work that you

29:43

do is also seeing

29:45

how it negatively affected people.

29:47

So what's that part of the

29:49

conversation? Yeah. I I

29:50

think something to highlight from both

29:52

of what you've said, Katana, is that

29:54

this experience in many ways was

29:57

different for everyone. So

29:59

we were all going through the same

30:02

stressors and, you know,

30:04

worldwide experience. but

30:06

everyone kind of had their own story

30:08

in the pandemic. And

30:11

unfortunately, many many people's

30:13

story coming out of the pandemic

30:15

now has been increased symptoms

30:17

of anxiety, depression,

30:20

burnout. I think we

30:22

are still learning all of the

30:24

ways Ethan the pandemic has

30:26

affected us, physically

30:28

and mentally emotionally,

30:30

people are still reeling from a

30:33

lot of those negative

30:35

consequences. So

30:37

I think now on campus, what I'm seeing

30:40

are students having

30:42

a real tough

30:44

time finding that same

30:46

connectivity that was lost. finding those same

30:48

support structures that

30:50

previously may have just been easy

30:53

or second nature to people coming into

30:56

college. now are are a

30:58

lot more difficult. You know, in

31:00

person events have started back up, of

31:02

course, but they may still not be at

31:04

the level that they were before. And some people are

31:06

still very anxious to engage in a lot of

31:08

those events

31:11

and and opportunities to connect with other students.

31:13

So I think the ways that

31:15

the pandemic is still affecting

31:18

us are are creating

31:20

a lot of situations of anxiety

31:22

and and depression and burnout for students.

31:24

Yeah. You're exactly right.

31:26

You know, I was I

31:28

was

31:31

interning

31:31

at a college counseling

31:33

center during the pandemic

31:36

last year. And we certainly

31:38

saw a lot of the things that you were

31:40

talking about. I mean, there's a

31:42

reason why clinicians and

31:44

mental health counselors,

31:45

there became really long

31:48

wait list. I mean, still up in the tri state

31:51

area. I mean, it'll take you six

31:53

months waiting list to get

31:55

you

31:55

know, get a session with therapist or a psychiatrist.

31:58

And that's why we saw, you know,

31:59

during the pandemic, we saw depression and

32:02

anxiety levels spike. also

32:04

saw increases in substance abuse again.

32:06

We saw a lot of people relapse and they

32:08

were going back to -- they're

32:11

having to go back to rehab facilities and We

32:13

also saw rates of

32:15

domestic violence and and sexual

32:18

assault. And those people

32:20

were locked in with

32:22

their at home too. And so

32:24

that became an even more dangerous situation.

32:26

We also saw some regarding

32:29

eating disorders and disorders, eating behaviors, that begins

32:31

to spike as well because that's like the

32:33

worst case scenario for some

32:35

of those patients to be sitting

32:38

at home. So certainly, you know, when we're talking about

32:40

stressors, and I know we kind of went off in a tangent,

32:42

but you're right. Like, we can't when we're talking about the

32:44

general stressors that are affecting

32:46

all of us, you

32:48

can't, like, not mention the

32:50

pandemic. And so let's break it

32:52

down and talk about

32:54

how do these stressors manifest

32:57

themselves. And I think this is really important

32:59

because now we can begin to

33:01

say, oh, wow. I didn't even

33:03

realize that it would affect me this way. And

33:05

that's important because now we can at least notice

33:07

the signs for ourselves and maybe if

33:09

somebody else is struggling. Right? So

33:11

within the academic setting, how

33:13

might this how might these stressors affect

33:16

us? Yeah. I would

33:16

say I'm a big, like, hyper fixator. So

33:19

I think when you're in

33:22

you know, your room taking online class

33:24

and your like, I remember

33:26

sitting there on Zoom's and everyone's

33:29

Ethan road be off. Like, there was no connectivity

33:31

during the pandemic. I literally

33:33

had professors being, like, when

33:36

we got sent home being, like, we're just not

33:38

even gonna continue course, like, I'm giving you guys all a's, like -- Oh, wow.

33:40

-- I'm so sorry that you guys basically had

33:43

to be sent home. And this is, you

33:45

know, something that I want you guys to focus on your

33:47

mental well-being. mental

33:49

health, like, not Ethan. Like,

33:51

I am so fortunate and blessed to

33:53

have a family to go home too.

33:56

where my parents' jobs were stable during this

33:58

time where we had Internet, we had

34:00

food on our table. I am

34:02

so privileged and alternate to have had

34:04

that experience, but not everyone had

34:06

that same experience. And I think to

34:08

the points we're making before about

34:11

everyone had their own individual experiences.

34:13

What Ethan was saying, I was

34:15

very fortunate in mine, but, you know, you never

34:17

know what's going on behind those cameras that

34:20

are off. you never know what people are going through. And I think I'm a big

34:22

hyper fixator, so I was

34:24

so hyper fixated on like, oh, I

34:26

hope, like, my

34:28

friends and the people in my classes are okay. But,

34:30

like, am I okay? Like, you kind of start

34:32

to go through this, like, cycles, like,

34:34

wait. You now you're just sitting there, like, you yourself and I just

34:36

kind of looking at yourself in the mirror, like, alright,

34:38

what can I hyperfixate on next? Like, what

34:40

can I focus on? And

34:42

I think with academics

34:44

that that was really tough because you couldn't really

34:46

focus on much like

34:48

the topics and things you were learning. It

34:50

was really easy for people

34:52

to just log off and sit in their bed and go back to

34:54

sleep. Like, there were so many eight thirty

34:56

classes that, you know, our poor professors

34:58

are sitting there trying to teach passionately

35:00

and, you

35:02

know, they're talking to screen of blank cameras. So I can

35:04

imagine it was really difficult on professors

35:06

as well as the students are

35:08

here with this, you know, willingness

35:12

and wanting to learn all this information.

35:14

So I think that was definitely very difficult

35:16

is that lack of

35:18

ability

35:18

to really learn

35:21

and lack

35:21

of ability for professors to teach.

35:24

So we're talking

35:25

about how

35:26

the stressors affect

35:28

us

35:29

in different categories. So we're just talking about how it affects us or

35:31

how it might manifest in the classroom.

35:33

I think the simplest symptom

35:36

or resolve or consequence might be just,

35:39

we can't focus. Right? You're talking a

35:41

little bit about that, especially with

35:44

the pandemic. lack of focus. And then I guess the most apparent

35:46

symptom would be just like a drop in

35:48

in grades. But can you do you have

35:50

any thoughts, cat

35:52

or Ethan? Yeah.

35:54

I mean, I think there are a lot

35:56

of academic related coping mechanisms that people have. For

35:58

some people, it might be diving

36:02

really deep into their studies. And that's

36:04

where we see positive

36:06

stress. So

36:08

there are levels of stress that can

36:10

be good motivators. You know, when

36:12

the adrenaline

36:14

rushy feel when

36:16

you're getting ready for a big game or when you have a

36:18

large exam coming up. That can be

36:20

a great motivator to play harder,

36:24

study harder. But when we start talking about

36:26

unhealthy levels of stress and

36:28

anxiety, I

36:30

think common coping

36:32

mechanisms that a lot of people have are tuning it

36:35

out, procrastinating work. And that manifests

36:37

as bad grades, but

36:40

there's a lot of things happening underneath the surface of

36:42

not being able to take

36:44

it all in and and leading to

36:47

things like burnout when there's

36:49

just too much to handle at once.

36:52

Yeah.

36:52

That's a really good point because it's not

36:54

just about the stressors affecting

36:57

the classroom experience. but

36:59

yet our school work could

37:02

all of a sudden become our coping

37:04

mechanism, which in some ways

37:06

can be a

37:08

good thing But then if we dive into it too can

37:10

become the source of

37:12

stress or

37:13

add even more

37:14

stress on our

37:16

CAD, do you have any thoughts about this?

37:18

I wasn't in the classroom during the pandemic, so

37:21

not sure what I

37:24

an ad there. I think the biggest dresser I got was

37:26

when I get the grade back and

37:27

I put in all the work and the

37:29

grade wasn't what I wanted it to

37:31

be and kind of the

37:33

down fall from that. I was like, oh, I need

37:35

to work harder next time. Like, I need

37:37

to spend an extra hour studying

37:39

and whatnot in that.

37:41

I think

37:41

is where I built some unhealthy

37:44

habits. And I know

37:46

we're

37:46

talking about in the classroom, but I think outside

37:48

of the classroom, my stress

37:50

release because sports

37:52

was also somewhat of

37:54

a stressor was going out.

37:56

And I think

37:56

that's that's a big theme for

37:59

for

37:59

college kids, your first time away from home, first

38:02

time with access to alcohol.

38:04

Like, I

38:05

that's where I really

38:06

did myself into service and undergrad was

38:08

Duke, was my escape. That was the

38:10

way I dealt with my stress in an

38:14

unhealthy in an unhealthy way that I wasn't able to identify until

38:18

I was at FUqua for my Duke

38:20

business school. And I was like, wow, I don't

38:22

feel like I need to go out tonight. I'm like, that's

38:24

so weird. Like and then I was like,

38:26

oh, here's why. It's because I no

38:28

longer am

38:30

stressing about my

38:30

grades as much or this as much like I'm really just here to

38:32

learn and my mindset was so different.

38:35

It's such an interesting

38:38

point. And you're so ripe. And I think I've

38:40

actually talked to so many

38:42

athletes, and it's funny because now at

38:44

forty one, I'm able to talk to a lot of my peers and they can reflect

38:46

back on their college experience.

38:48

And even when maybe

38:50

even just going out, that

38:52

that's a that is a thing

38:54

that's part of the college experience. And so in

38:56

many ways, you are encouraged to go

38:58

out. Like, if you're not going out, then you're just

39:00

kinda like, okay, what's wrong? Like, you need to be going

39:02

out and college. Right?

39:04

So in some ways, like,

39:06

it's okay. Right? But then the moment you

39:09

realize, like, that is my only escape

39:11

because athletics is causing me stress. Because a classroom, athletics

39:13

is causing me stress. Like, now

39:15

it becomes, okay, is

39:18

going out and

39:20

whatever, getting ways to doing drugs,

39:22

whatever, is that the

39:24

healthy way of dealing with this type of

39:26

stress? So a lot of this is about

39:28

self reflection trying

39:30

to have that self reflection, right, and

39:32

awareness, and being like, okay, why

39:34

do I feel this need to

39:37

go out and party so hard. And I actually

39:39

saw some of my peers, you know,

39:41

have substance abuse problems. But when you're

39:43

in college, you just think, like, You

39:45

know, they're just kind of they're having a good time. Like,

39:47

they have thrown the best parties,

39:50

but looking back, you're like,

39:52

oh,

39:52

no. That was that was substance abuse.

39:54

Yeah. And it is really interesting now being out of

39:57

college, how people

39:59

react to Like,

40:01

I'm I'm twenty six and how people react

40:04

to, you know, twenty six year olds who are

40:06

acting as though they were in college.

40:08

It's now frowned

40:08

upon. Like, they're like, get your act together. You're an adult versus,

40:11

like, college as an excuse of

40:13

kind of crossing that boundary

40:16

of when you

40:18

might have some unhealthy habits. So really

40:20

interesting. I think as you

40:22

get out of the college

40:24

the college culture culture, Yeah. I

40:26

would say when I got back after the pandemic,

40:29

I expected myself to, like, wanna

40:31

go out and, like, do

40:34

many things because we are, like, so pent

40:36

up, especially in athletics. We had,

40:38

like, a lot of rules surrounding

40:40

COVID and what we were not allowed

40:42

to do we were allowed to hang

40:44

out with, like, there were periods of time where we couldn't hang out with anyone outside of our team.

40:46

So then once all those things were

40:50

up, like, released and we got kind of released out to do

40:52

things a little bit more

40:54

freely. I then kind of found

40:55

myself actually not wanting

40:57

to go out much because bringing back to the point that I

41:00

mentioned earlier about getting

41:02

creative,

41:02

learning some hobbies, some other

41:05

releases because during COVID during the pandemic. My sport has

41:07

always been my release, and I

41:10

wasn't able to do that. And I'm

41:12

like, okay, now I have to find other

41:14

releases going on walks, you

41:16

know, playing pickleball with my family,

41:18

like doing other things, you find

41:20

other ways to, like, release those

41:22

stressors. So for me, it was like

41:24

going out and being social and doing fun

41:26

things. And then I kind of

41:28

realized in the pandemic, I I had

41:30

other ways to release in that

41:32

creativity allowed me to

41:34

maybe find

41:34

other releases in that way. So I

41:37

I feel

41:38

very appreciative for those hobbies, I guess, that I learned because I

41:39

think you see more of a, like, a

41:42

reduction of people doing those

41:44

unhealthy, coping

41:46

mechanisms. Definitely people, of course, love to go out, like, more in

41:48

college, but you can see more

41:51

of a balance of, hey, maybe, you

41:53

know, I'm stressed out about school

41:56

and sports. go for a walk with a friend around East campus or I'm

41:58

gonna go do, like, a kit box in class because,

41:59

like, I like to do something else outside of

42:02

my sporter. I'm gonna go paint

42:04

and, you

42:06

know, go

42:06

to the farmer's market with my friends. Like, you see a lot

42:08

more

42:08

of those, like, wholesome fun activities because

42:10

we were forced to do that, you know. And I

42:12

think that's really interesting. People really took to Ethan.

42:16

So what about we talked about the

42:18

classroom. What about

42:19

athletic

42:20

performance. Did it affect

42:22

your

42:24

athletic

42:24

performance. I'll start

42:25

there. So Yeah.

42:28

Dennis is

42:28

a weird sport. Most

42:30

most of it, most of your junior career is individual. Right? Duke, you

42:33

don't really start off playing

42:36

doubles. So you

42:38

spend your entire, let's say, for me, it was about eleven

42:40

years of your first part

42:44

of your athletic career,

42:46

being an individual sport. And once you get to

42:48

college, now it's all

42:50

of a sudden a team sport. And it's like you have

42:52

to shift and you're like, okay, you have teammates

42:54

you have expectations from your coaches and your teammates and

42:56

all these other things. And that to me

43:00

was was just

43:02

a shift And it was also

43:04

it affected my performance because I couldn't I felt so tight.

43:06

And we all know when you're

43:08

tight as an athlete, that's

43:11

when everything kinda goes downhill because you gotta be loose.

43:13

You gotta be like, you know, and and lean on

43:15

that muscle memory. So for me, I

43:18

felt like I

43:20

just didn't reach my potential or play the way I

43:22

wanted to play because I so much was

43:24

in my head. It's like,

43:26

you know,

43:26

you know am

43:27

I am I

43:28

really Duke, do I

43:30

deserve my Duke scholarship? I

43:32

mean, that went through my head. Like, do I

43:34

really belong belong here? Am

43:37

I Am I living up to my

43:39

coach's expectations? Am I living up to

43:41

my teammate's expectations? And am

43:43

I living up to

43:45

the Duke tradition? And

43:47

it made it hard for me to, like, really play

43:49

loosely, and I think it it really stiveled

43:51

my performance. So as I share my experience,

43:53

does anything come to mind for for

43:55

any of you? Yeah.

43:57

Oh my gosh. I feel

43:59

like that for me is

44:02

really Duke my was my main

44:04

struggle for a very long

44:06

time. I showed up freshman year. And,

44:08

like,

44:08

you have, like, you know, this everyone

44:10

is the best from their school. Everyone

44:12

comes in as, like, the best, like,

44:15

from their team, from their town, whatever it

44:17

is. And you come in thinking, like, you

44:19

know, you're very good and you have

44:21

these expectations of yourself to perform at

44:23

a high level. I

44:24

got so in my head, I literally couldn't even catch him throw a Like, I thought every

44:27

time a ball come to me, it's like, oh my

44:29

gosh, don't drop it. Don't drop it. And

44:31

I drop it. Duke, it was almost like I was like

44:33

manifesting myself to drop the ball because I was so anxious

44:35

about performing well. And I

44:38

had

44:38

to do a lot work. I

44:41

I saw doctor Sean Zeppelin who was on this show

44:44

yesterday,

44:44

and I spent

44:46

so much of my time with

44:50

him focusing on how to get myself out of that head space of, like,

44:52

fearing failure rather

44:53

than, like, you know, approaching it

44:55

head on and, like, learning from those

44:58

things. And I spent a lot of

45:00

time over this summer, you know, going into my

45:02

sophomore year, like getting myself into the

45:04

right headspace, reading different books,

45:06

you know, talking

45:08

to doctors up on a lot, talking to friends,

45:10

sharing my experiences with my family

45:12

Ethan my friends and all that stuff.

45:14

And I really had to dig myself out of this

45:16

hole and I've had a couple experiences like

45:19

that where, you

45:20

know, then I came back, saw from here and

45:22

had a pretty good year of performance. then

45:24

I came back junior year and struggled again. And again, it was just this

45:27

expectation of getting better every

45:29

year and, like, feeling

45:31

like I had to have a better year than my

45:33

sophomore year for my junior year. And it was

45:35

just this, you know, cycle

45:38

of a mental battle that I would have

45:40

with myself pretty much

45:42

every year. In this year,

45:43

I feel like it's the first year where

45:45

I feel very comfortable Ethan really

45:47

excited and not thinking so much

45:49

about my performance, but really about taking my last year

45:51

and it's, you know, my fifth year, taking it for what it is

45:53

and being just excited to be here and

45:55

being so grateful I've

45:58

had this experience. And I've taken a lot of pressure off

45:59

my shoulders for, like, my performance. And

46:02

I'm

46:02

coming back from injury. I got surgery

46:04

over the summer and I

46:06

feel like I'm performing at a really high level because I'm not

46:08

worried about my own individual performance.

46:10

I'm just excited about my experience. Mhmm.

46:12

And that's the first time I've had.

46:15

and I'm so appreciative of that

46:17

mindset shift. So I feel like that's

46:19

my experience. It's kinda long winded, but

46:21

that's kinda been my this is a complicated question. Yes. I

46:23

get it. I mean, everything that we're talking about and

46:25

all the questions I'm asking are

46:27

so complicated. It was just

46:29

And I and I really do understand that. So I'm gonna ask you, I'm gonna push

46:31

you a little bit more when you talk about those

46:34

struggles every single year -- Mhmm. -- was that

46:36

how did that manifest on the

46:38

field. Did you I mean, did you notice a drop in your

46:40

statistics, or did it affect your relationships with

46:42

your coach or peers? Yeah. I

46:45

would say tough a definite, like, drop in my statistics.

46:47

I wasn't taking risks in my junior years. And I

46:50

mean, my freshman year, like, I literally couldn't

46:52

catch them. Duke, I was

46:54

such a head case. Like, you're a nervous

46:56

freshman. You have all these different things. Like, you're

46:58

away from home. I really struggled

47:00

with, you know, like, my

47:02

sexual orientation and being comfortable with

47:04

Like, that was really hard for me. So being

47:06

comfortable with my own skin really

47:08

really changed from freshman to soft

47:10

year, and I saw an increase in performance. I think

47:13

solely just gaining more comfort in myself. But then, you

47:15

know, once you add performance on top

47:17

of it, my junior year rolled

47:20

around. And I just, like, wasn't taking the same risks, like, one

47:22

of, like, my I feel, like,

47:24

greatest strengths as an athlete is, like,

47:27

I'm just throw a caution with the wind

47:29

and just, like, attack everything I have. And I

47:31

feel like I'm a

47:32

a

47:33

very aggressive

47:35

player and I wasn't taking those same

47:36

aggressive risks, and I I performed not to

47:38

the level I

47:39

knew I could. And then coming

47:41

into senior year again, you

47:44

know, I really focused on my

47:46

experience rather than my performance and,

47:48

like, playing with my teammates and not so much focused

47:50

on, like, how many goals am I gonna have? How many

47:52

assists? You know, how many goals are my teammates

47:54

gonna have? How many assists are they gonna have?

47:56

And, like, really

47:57

just focused on, like, winning

47:59

and like playing as a team and doing all

48:02

those fun things. And I think that really

48:04

helped me perform at a better level. But

48:06

after the pandemic, I think kind of bringing it

48:08

back to that, a lot of athletes only had time to, like, individually work on

48:10

themselves. So you saw people coming

48:12

back with that

48:12

level of burnout of, like, oh my gosh, the

48:14

only thing I've been able to do is

48:17

go do wall ball and shoot on my own. And I come back and I'm

48:20

like, oh, gosh. Like, I have to

48:22

go

48:22

and, like, do wall ball. I have to go and shoot on

48:25

my own. this year and last year I felt like I get to

48:27

go and do these things. Like, I'm excited to do

48:29

these things. And I think that was also

48:31

that shift is like Ethan

48:34

burnout of my junior year was right after the pandemic,

48:36

like, oh my gosh, I have to go out

48:37

and do wall ball. I have to go

48:39

out and shoot changing

48:41

that mindset of, like, I get to go and do

48:43

it. Mhmm. That makes sense. Yeah. It it really does.

48:45

Cat, how about for you? Yeah.

48:47

I came in as a accruited

48:49

walk on. So I came in

48:51

with

48:51

major impostor syndrome where I

48:53

was constantly, like,

48:56

does

48:56

everyone think I Does like, did

48:58

I earn my spot

48:59

here? Am I earning

49:01

my keep? Like, and

49:03

that was a constant cloud of

49:06

stress and it was a narrative that

49:08

I had created in

49:10

my own. mind. Like, there was no there was never

49:12

anything externally within, like,

49:14

being treated differently by teammates or

49:16

coaches. It was

49:18

truly, like, me putting

49:20

that on myself of being, like, you

49:22

were good enough to get actually recruited?

49:24

Like, are you good enough to to

49:26

play with these

49:27

girls? And for the first, like, year or two,

49:29

Duke, said she couldn't catch her throat, I could not pick

49:31

up a ground ball. Like, you scoop the ball.

49:33

I would be alone no one

49:35

near me and I couldn't pick it up. I cannot tell you the

49:37

amount of times I'd have to go off on my own and

49:39

get extra reps in the middle of a drill

49:42

because it was so bad

49:44

and that was like a trickle down effect

49:46

of, like, grumbles have always been my thing. Like, that's always been something I can rely on. Like,

49:48

holy crap. What am I doing here?

49:50

And

49:53

And

49:53

it honestly wasn't until

49:56

similar to what Anna had had talked

49:58

about until I was like, you know

50:00

what? Like, At the end of the day, I don't have any scholarship

50:02

attached to my place on this

50:04

team. I get to

50:05

decide every single day. if

50:07

I

50:07

wanna come to practice, if I wanna show up. And the

50:09

second that I no longer wanna do

50:12

that, I can

50:12

walk away. And so I

50:14

felt like that was my

50:16

that was kind of like my peace of mind of Duke every single day

50:18

it's gonna be my decision. There's nothing over my

50:20

head and that told me I really did wanna do

50:23

this and I really did wanna be

50:25

here and that I did have a spot

50:27

and I needed to trust that there was a reason I was offered

50:29

a spot on the team and that, yes, I

50:32

need to show up every single

50:34

practice and Ethan if it's not,

50:36

I was injured a lot. So even if it's

50:38

not physically, it's mentally

50:40

and emotionally, cheering on my teammates, being

50:42

their biggest

50:44

cheerleaders, like, yelling for the girl who, you know, might be having it off

50:46

day. Like, how can I

50:48

support from a team

50:50

perspective? And I think a lot of teams are always

50:52

like, there's blue girl or there's a

50:54

blue guy and, like, really, yeah. I don't wanna I'm

50:56

not, like, saying I was that person, but I

50:58

tried to be, like, how do I

51:00

glue people together and really

51:02

bring that rotary and add value in a way where I feel

51:04

like I am making a difference and

51:06

I'm a value add. Like, I'm I'm a

51:08

net positive

51:10

add to this team, not a net neutral or a net negative. Like, where

51:12

can I find my value? And it

51:14

was never on the field. And

51:18

like, that sucks. I think it's, like, athletes.

51:20

We wanna be on the field. We wanna be contributing.

51:22

But I really ended up finding value

51:24

my senior year being, like, and

51:26

scout team and just kind of, like, messing around, like, trying to prep

51:29

my teammates for games and then on

51:31

the sidelines being their biggest cheerleaders, being, like,

51:33

that was a sick player, like,

51:36

you know, giving, like, hey, they're doing this or they're doing that.

51:38

And so that was, like,

51:40

where it

51:40

kind of manifested for me, and it

51:43

took a while. Like, it wasn't easy

51:45

to find that mental,

51:49

I guess, view on

51:51

it. Like, it's really hard no

51:53

one tells you how hard it is

51:55

to one,

51:56

go to college. Like, be a college student

51:58

and two, play college athletics.

52:00

It's kinda, like, It's this beautiful thing.

52:02

It's gonna be amazing. You work so hard to get it

52:04

and no one's really like, hey, sometimes things

52:06

are really crappy. Yeah. And

52:07

I think that's

52:08

also really I mean, I think this is important

52:10

conversation for for administrators and coaches as

52:12

well, and this is not to imply that your coach

52:14

didn't do that too. But just to

52:17

serve as a reminder, for

52:20

coaches that explaining

52:22

the dynamics of a team

52:24

and that your value as an

52:27

athlete and a member of the team is to not just be the

52:29

star player, not just to pump out the

52:31

most, to be the scoring leader on

52:33

the team. Like, you

52:35

can be that blue person. Like, you can be that cheerleader.

52:38

And that's what I was as well. I mean, listen, I

52:40

was a top ten

52:42

nationally ranked

52:44

player going into Duke. And I was a member on the

52:46

US on the national team. And

52:48

I barely I could barely get on the

52:50

lineup because they had we had a gazillion

52:53

number want, like, all were number one in the country at one point in

52:55

their career. And I was just like, I can't even get

52:57

on this line up. Like, what am I doing

53:00

here? You And by the end, and then I had three

53:02

surgeries, my junior So

53:04

my sophomore year, I had a shoulder surgery

53:06

in both knees in three consecutive months. So

53:08

you're like, Ethan AII can't even,

53:10

like, add to this team, but you're

53:13

right. it's a shift in perspective. Right? And this

53:15

is a message to all the athletes

53:17

and students, whatever. Like,

53:20

you're

53:20

you're output

53:21

and your contribution to a

53:23

team or to society is

53:26

not about just good

53:28

grades and biggest salary and biggest accomplishments. You you can

53:30

contribute to in in different ways. And so, Kat,

53:32

you were talking about, you're Duke, that

53:34

the like

53:35

your strength like, fell apart because you got in your

53:37

own head and and you lost a bit of confidence and eat

53:40

them. I think

53:42

it's

53:42

it's

53:43

interesting because, like, when

53:46

you look at just a student athlete or just student

53:48

experience, when you lose confidence in

53:50

one area, you kinda like lose

53:53

confidence in other areas. Like, that happened to me in my

53:55

tennis game because I was like, now my, you

53:58

know, my academics and my

54:00

social, my self esteem, my

54:02

confidence in everything else. And I know so much of what you do is within

54:04

the mental health space. So let's get

54:06

into that kind of that part of

54:08

the conversation.

54:10

when things begin to fall apart, what happens to students do

54:13

you

54:13

think? Duke, I mean, whether it's

54:15

impostor

54:15

syndrome or whatever

54:18

factor is

54:20

swirling around in a student or a student athlete's head, it

54:23

can be insidious and and

54:25

it can very quickly spiral

54:28

down into something

54:30

more serious. So when

54:34

students don't have the support structures, they

54:36

need to talk about that or

54:38

don't feel comfortable having those

54:40

conversations or feel that there's a

54:42

stigma in their community around

54:44

that or might hold identities

54:46

that that make it hard for

54:48

them to talk about that with the

54:50

people around them, it can be

54:54

very isolating and lonely

54:56

to have all of that

54:58

swirling around in your head, be

55:00

caught in a a spiral of of

55:03

negative emotion but end up in a

55:05

very dark place quickly without

55:07

the right people to go to or

55:09

places to seek help. Yeah.

55:11

And so now we're kind of diving into the

55:13

part of the conversation. We've talked about how

55:15

the stressors can manifest themselves

55:17

in the classroom. athletic performance, different coping mechanisms,

55:19

whether that's diving into our academics or

55:22

going out and partying and all this other stuff.

55:24

And now we're talking about the mental

55:26

health and Conversations.

55:28

BECAUSE IT CAN EMERGGE IN

55:30

DEPRESSION OR DEPRESSIVE SYMPTOMS

55:32

OR ANXIETY OR SOCIAL WOULD DRALL

55:34

or eating disorders, our body image issues, confidence, with

55:37

modality. I mean, all of these things. And

55:39

one thing that I learned in my internship last year

55:41

at the College Counseling Center

55:44

is that this is a period around eighteen early

55:46

adulthood. When we begin to

55:48

see some of these clinical symptoms, these

55:50

mental health symptoms and issues, it's

55:54

actually when they actually emerge. And so it

55:56

kind of makes sense. It's like, okay, this is

55:58

normal. Like, why we would begin to see

56:00

some of these these things because

56:02

when you look at the developmental course of

56:04

some of these mental health

56:06

issues, that's when they emerge. Yeah,

56:08

you were talking about some

56:10

of the depression and anxiety that you experience. Can you talk about

56:12

that and and share a little bit more of your

56:14

journey? Yeah. Definitely.

56:17

I I was was

56:19

blessed by my mother's side of the family with a

56:22

cam and pinging in my hips.

56:24

So I had two

56:26

hip surgeries by

56:27

the end of my junior year.

56:30

And when you like, again, it's

56:32

similar to the pandemic when you're injured,

56:34

your identity in your sport is

56:36

taken from you, and it's also your identity of just being like an athlete

56:38

in general, like being on crutches, wearing

56:42

a brace, I

56:44

couldn't even bend over to tie my shoe. Taking a shower had

56:46

to be like a whole process.

56:49

Right? So that was really hard.

56:51

And after my second surgery, I

56:54

spent the summer in Durham and completely

56:56

isolated myself. I mean, I

56:58

slept probably like sixteen hours a day

57:01

and I chopped it up to oh,

57:03

I'm healing. And I lived with what

57:06

we both played with her. I lived with one of my

57:08

teammates. And she'd be like, let's

57:10

go do this Duke a big I'm

57:12

really tired. I'm good. I'm just gonna sit on the couch.

57:14

And that was when, you know, my

57:16

depression depression had come to

57:18

fruition. And,

57:20

I mean, this is a little bit dark, but, like, I would be

57:22

driving home over the summer

57:24

from from Duke to Northern

57:26

Virginia. And we I drive over bridges and I'd be like,

57:28

I could just send

57:30

it here. I feel

57:31

like but then, you know, and I think through these thoughts. And I at the time, I was like,

57:33

well, I'm not gonna act on it. I'm not

57:35

gonna do

57:37

anything about it. And I

57:39

think it had all boiled up from the

57:41

expectations of being at Duke,

57:43

not getting that internship, not being able

57:45

to play a sport I

57:47

loved feeling like my friends were overseas in

57:50

Italy or at their internships and,

57:52

like, what was I doing? Duke,

57:55

like, what am I doing here? You know? Like, this isn't where I thought I

57:57

would end up. And,

57:59

ultimately, it came to a breaking point

58:02

and, like,

58:04

I had

58:05

called my mom. My mom picked me up, and I went to a psychiatrist. And I sorry.

58:07

I'm giggling again because they're falling. When I

58:09

went to a psychiatrist, there

58:12

was first time I really felt like I was educated on

58:14

mental health and chemicals in

58:16

your brain. And that's not something they teach

58:18

you in

58:19

FLE in sixth grade. That's something

58:21

they teach you in high school and health class, but Duke, I had a

58:23

psychiatrist sit me down and say, here's what

58:26

serotonin looks Duke. Here are the

58:28

blockers. Here's what scientifically

58:30

is going on. And I was like,

58:32

oh, I am

58:33

normal. Like, I am

58:35

gonna be okay.

58:36

this is something that isn't just happening to me.

58:38

I'm not the only one. That doesn't mean I'm

58:40

gonna be okay tomorrow, but, like, I am gonna be

58:42

okay. There is light at the end of the tunnel

58:46

and that's I don't think something that's openly one, I don't think

58:48

there's enough

58:48

education, especially, like, on college campuses,

58:51

and I think it should be

58:54

happening. sooner, whether it's not at home, but like in high

58:56

school, middle school, in classrooms where

58:58

you're educating people on signs, symptoms,

59:00

what you can do to help

59:03

your mental health and, like, what's actually going on

59:06

chemically in your brain, but that

59:08

was

59:08

the first time once I

59:10

learned

59:11

about the specifics that I was like, now that I understand this, I can digest

59:13

it and I can identify

59:16

what is

59:18

actually going on. And when I get if I ever get back to that I

59:20

can, you know, have more queues

59:22

of, like, okay. This

59:22

is what we did the last time. This is who we're

59:24

gonna call. This is where we're gonna go to.

59:28

And so that's a little bit about my

59:30

journey with depression.

59:32

Yeah. Thank

59:32

you so much for for opening up and

59:35

sharing your story. I think that's

59:38

really really, really important for people to hear. And it sounds

59:40

like that path happened

59:43

right

59:43

after your injury.

59:44

injury

59:45

which is very normal. Yes. Very,

59:47

very normal. To validate your experience, I'm

59:49

sure there's a lot of athletes or just general people

59:51

who are going to So it's actually quite

59:54

normal. And that's something that I've been learning

59:56

as well. The difference between

59:58

active and passive suicidal

1:00:00

ideation, so passive or typical ones

1:00:02

it might be a fleeting thought. And those

1:00:04

are actually quite normal during

1:00:06

periods of high high stress. And

1:00:08

that was a period when you're going through really

1:00:10

big transition. And that's something that my

1:00:13

one of my supervisors had taught me

1:00:15

last year. And, admittedly, for me,

1:00:17

it's Ethan I have never

1:00:19

had any sort of suicidal ideations

1:00:22

before, but during the pandemic to

1:00:26

stress, COVID, we have two kids

1:00:28

at home, I had

1:00:30

actually experienced some of those passive suicidal

1:00:32

ideations for one reason or another, and

1:00:34

it really ultimately boils down to Duke, okay,

1:00:36

the processing of, like, okay, what options do I have to deal with all of this?

1:00:39

So thank you for for sharing that a little bit more.

1:00:41

If I could ask one more question about

1:00:44

that. what did you learn in your in

1:00:46

sitting with a psychiatrist in terms of like, what was helpful for you

1:00:48

in terms of processing everything that

1:00:50

you were going through? Yeah.

1:00:54

I mean, I don't think I'd be able to,

1:00:56

like, quote her. She she was an angel. I

1:00:58

always say, she was Duke my guardian angel,

1:01:00

but she brought out an

1:01:02

iPad. She drew squiggly in different

1:01:04

colors and really, like, illustrated what

1:01:06

was going on. And then she told me

1:01:08

further, you know, I went on anti depressants and

1:01:10

she was like, this is what they're

1:01:12

doing. And this is how this is

1:01:14

the timeline. This is

1:01:16

XYZ and I I felt

1:01:18

Duke with that, I felt more

1:01:20

comfortable and, like, my journey moving forward. And then beyond

1:01:22

that, I looked at, like,

1:01:24

other holistic aspects

1:01:26

of, like, know, there's a lot lot of

1:01:28

studies about gratitude and focusing on the

1:01:30

things you do have versus the things you don't

1:01:33

and being

1:01:33

present in the moment and something

1:01:36

I learned recently, which I somewhat I think

1:01:38

subconsciously knew is, like, anxiety

1:01:40

lives in the future.

1:01:42

Like, if you're in the

1:01:43

present and

1:01:46

you're

1:01:47

worrying about the future, that's where anxiety thrives. if you look back to

1:01:49

the past, you're not getting anxious about things

1:01:51

that

1:01:51

have happened in the past, you're getting anxious

1:01:53

about things that could

1:01:56

come from your past actions. And

1:01:58

that's something that I try to remind

1:01:59

myself of, like, I can only control what I

1:02:02

can control. I

1:02:03

control it comes out of my mouth. I control like

1:02:05

who I surround myself with. But beyond

1:02:07

that, other people, I can't

1:02:09

control them. And I still do get

1:02:11

anxious about, you know, things in

1:02:14

my vicinity, but to a certain extent,

1:02:16

it's Duke, you're not behind

1:02:17

the driver's wheel with

1:02:19

other other people. And

1:02:21

that's

1:02:21

that's helped too. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.

1:02:23

And so you really learned from that experience and it sounds like

1:02:25

getting that validation from the

1:02:27

psychiatrists and recognizing Duke this

1:02:29

is actually normal and then boiling down bringing in

1:02:32

the by biological aspects of

1:02:34

it. And so Anna, for you,

1:02:36

you mentioned a little bit about your sexual

1:02:38

identity as well. And this is an important conversation as well because it shows that

1:02:40

our own personal development and

1:02:43

solution is going to impact our college experience. Mhmm.

1:02:46

Right? because that's so important. He had such an

1:02:48

awesome article and

1:02:50

insight look cross, talking about your

1:02:52

experience. So Ethan you talk a little bit about

1:02:54

that and what it meant for you in

1:02:56

terms of the mental health

1:02:58

implications? Yeah, I think Anyone

1:03:00

who isn't comfortable in their own skin, and

1:03:02

we kind of had mentioned it before, once you lose

1:03:04

confidence in one aspect of your

1:03:06

life, you lose it in every aspect of life

1:03:08

as well. I came in to college

1:03:10

just immediately anxious about, oh

1:03:12

my gosh, well, what's everyone gonna think

1:03:14

of me? Like, I came from in

1:03:17

an area, like, not talking about my family because my

1:03:19

family's amazing, so supportive.

1:03:21

Like, I

1:03:21

have such a strong support

1:03:24

system at home with my friends, like,

1:03:26

the people close to me. But definitely, like,

1:03:28

in an area that it it wasn't talked about,

1:03:30

you know, people in the

1:03:32

LGBTQ plus community

1:03:34

were not really talked about where I where I

1:03:36

grew up and that's not people were

1:03:38

saying anything negatively. It just wasn't

1:03:40

really talked about. And so when I came

1:03:42

here, I was Duke, my No

1:03:44

one's like me. I don't like,

1:03:46

I feel so uncomfortable. I think everyone's

1:03:48

gonna think

1:03:49

that I'm weird. Like, I

1:03:51

don't want anyone to locker room space or, like, they're

1:03:53

my teammate. Like, you know what I mean? Like, there

1:03:55

was just so many thoughts that went

1:03:57

through my head people were

1:03:59

gonna

1:03:59

judge me based off of just this

1:04:02

one way I identified,

1:04:04

which was not the case now that I look back on

1:04:06

it. But it's

1:04:07

so consuming. And it

1:04:10

was pretty much everything I thought about.

1:04:12

Like, I didn't wanna tell anyone, like,

1:04:14

people were slowly finding out.

1:04:16

And, like, then I was worried about, like, the chatter that went on behind my

1:04:18

back. And once I just

1:04:19

accepted the fact that, like, people are

1:04:22

gonna talk about Ethan,

1:04:24

like, I

1:04:24

just had to be okay with it. That's when I feel

1:04:27

like I had kind of the wherewithal to be

1:04:29

more confident and

1:04:30

comfortable in my And

1:04:33

I think once I was able to do that, I just saw such an increased

1:04:36

like, met like, I just felt like

1:04:38

I performed at such a

1:04:40

higher level once

1:04:42

I was confident in who I am, and I knew that I had

1:04:44

people that supported me because my team made support

1:04:46

me, my coaches, support me, and love me, and

1:04:49

all that stuff. And once I, like, really saw that

1:04:51

and, like, those anxieties that we that

1:04:53

Cactus had mentioned, I

1:04:56

just had

1:04:56

to be more present and just appreciate,

1:04:58

you know, that I'm in a really good place. I'm at Duke,

1:05:01

you know, I have such a great support system

1:05:03

around me. I was able to just perform at a

1:05:05

much higher level. So it sounds like your

1:05:07

sexual identity and not and

1:05:09

recognizing that and accepting that. Was that the

1:05:12

thing that was or the primary

1:05:14

force that was affecting your athletic

1:05:16

performance? I would say

1:05:18

just that coupled with, like, the expectations I had of myself.

1:05:20

And Ethan, also, I was injured

1:05:22

my freshman year, so

1:05:23

I did get surgery the fall

1:05:25

of

1:05:25

my freshman year, and Duke,

1:05:27

cat one. tell you, Fall freshman year

1:05:29

is, like, such an important learning experience

1:05:32

as an athlete. And on top of

1:05:33

that, I was a mid filters. So,

1:05:35

like, you had two sides of the ball that you needed

1:05:37

to learn and, like, change. And when I came

1:05:40

back, they just kinda moved me to attack because I

1:05:42

just, like, thought that, like, teaching you two sides of

1:05:44

the ball in the spring was just gonna be

1:05:46

too hard. And just it it

1:05:48

was really difficult to miss that fall

1:05:50

season and and a big learning curve

1:05:52

and a big learning moment. And I came

1:05:53

into the spring and just really, really struggled

1:05:56

because I felt like everyone had

1:05:58

already gotten that process of learning out of the way

1:06:00

and I was just starting it. So

1:06:02

I think that was

1:06:04

really hard, but then also, you know, the sexual

1:06:06

identity and not being super

1:06:08

comfortable with myself and who I

1:06:09

was was really difficult. It was

1:06:11

really hard on me. Yeah. So now we're

1:06:13

real we're when you share your story, we're recognizing the the complexity of

1:06:15

events. Actually, both of you guys both of

1:06:17

you guys suffered. really

1:06:20

bad injuries. And so now you're isolated, getting

1:06:23

adjusted, for you, Anna, it

1:06:25

was your fall year,

1:06:28

and then the sexual identity component, trying to figure out your

1:06:30

place on on the team and everything.

1:06:32

Mhmm. If you don't mind, you you wrote

1:06:34

such a beautiful piece and inside

1:06:36

lacrosse. Could

1:06:38

I you a little bit. Although I am now back to this

1:06:40

person, I still make it a priority to focus

1:06:42

on my mental health and my emotions. After

1:06:44

a few years of practice, I still have

1:06:47

days when question who I am and my ability to be

1:06:49

happy. But that is of all a part of

1:06:51

the process. Like I said, growth is not

1:06:54

linear. It's a never ending process of ebbs

1:06:56

and flow Although I

1:06:58

never struggled with a diagnosable

1:07:00

mental health disorder, I know plenty of

1:07:02

people that do. And over the summer going into

1:07:04

my sophomore year, my team and I

1:07:06

tragically lost a teammate and friend,

1:07:08

Morgan Rogers, to realize

1:07:11

that detrimental struggles with mental health are often overlooked

1:07:13

and invalidated because of harsh, stigma

1:07:15

surrounding mental health. So let me read

1:07:18

that again. team

1:07:20

and I tragically lost a teammate of brand

1:07:22

Morgan Rogers to suicide. And to this day,

1:07:24

that was one of the most difficult things I've

1:07:27

gone through. After Morgan's passing, I realize

1:07:29

that detrimental struggles with mental health

1:07:31

are often overlooked and invalidated because

1:07:33

of harsh stigma surrounding

1:07:36

mental I made

1:07:36

a major change to my expectation for myself after this

1:07:38

to never let people suffer in

1:07:41

silence. I wanted to tackle this

1:07:42

by removing the stigma of mental health from

1:07:45

the athletic community. The second starts with

1:07:47

the tuck it out mindset that is

1:07:49

so normalized in most

1:07:52

athletic communities. does it

1:07:53

like to read that out? To hear

1:07:55

that out loud? I mean,

1:07:57

I still really, you know, stand with

1:07:59

kind

1:07:59

of all those things that I said. I

1:08:02

I think when

1:08:02

you're younger and you're a freshman and now being

1:08:05

a fifth year and,

1:08:06

you know, I was eighteen years old and

1:08:08

I was a freshman and I'm twenty two years

1:08:10

old, I

1:08:12

think just the growth mindset that I've switched to

1:08:14

rather than just like this, tackle this, you

1:08:16

know, everything that I have in front

1:08:18

of me. It's just kind of growing

1:08:21

with each experience that I've had.

1:08:24

And I think growth being not linear, I

1:08:26

think is something that or it is

1:08:28

linear But

1:08:30

there are, like, ebbs and flows, like, within that linear

1:08:32

process. I think it's something that is

1:08:34

really important to remember and remind people

1:08:36

of. There are days, like and

1:08:39

I kind of have this like, front about myself,

1:08:41

like, that I kinda just, like, walk in and I'm like, oh, I'm so happy

1:08:43

and positive and, like, love talking to people. Like,

1:08:45

I really struggle with, like,

1:08:47

social anxiety and Ethan know,

1:08:50

going home and being like, oh my gosh. I

1:08:52

said this. I said this, like, laying away at night, like

1:08:54

thinking about, like, the interactions I've had throughout the day.

1:08:58

and I really, like, feel like

1:09:00

I mask that pretty well or when I was

1:09:02

younger, I feel like I did, but now I'm

1:09:04

a lot more open that and being, like,

1:09:06

you know what I do with things? Like, super happy, go

1:09:09

lucky, like,

1:09:10

that mask. I can remove

1:09:12

it around the

1:09:14

people that I feel supported by. And I think there are days that are worse than others where I, like, you know, struggle

1:09:16

and am feeling Duke I'm a little

1:09:18

bit anxious or on edge and just

1:09:23

the difference of being able show that to people -- Mhmm. -- versus previously,

1:09:26

I felt like I really had to hide Ethan.

1:09:28

previously public i really had to hide Mhmm.

1:09:30

You know, And it's

1:09:31

really about owning your own story and your journey and

1:09:33

your narrative and becoming comfortable with yourself.

1:09:35

Yeah. And so Anna and

1:09:37

Kath, I know you do so much

1:09:39

meaningful work associated with and I want to go back to that.

1:09:41

I want to bring Ethan into the conversation. So now

1:09:43

Ethan after hearing Anna and

1:09:45

Kat's story in their own

1:09:48

personal journeys, over

1:09:50

at UNC, it wasn't too long ago that there was a string of of suicide. So we're

1:09:52

obviously talking about just the mental

1:09:54

health implications. But what you're just

1:09:59

I'm gonna leave it open to you to engage in this Conversations how however,

1:10:02

you want, whether it's your personal experience,

1:10:05

or what you were just seeing over on campus?

1:10:08

Yeah. I think what

1:10:08

part of both Katana and I both touched

1:10:11

on this, but part of what

1:10:13

makes depression and

1:10:16

anxiety so dangerous

1:10:18

is that it convinces us of the lie that we're alone. And

1:10:20

that I think is

1:10:22

is what often

1:10:23

leads to suicidality

1:10:27

and and feelings there

1:10:29

may not be any

1:10:31

other option left.

1:10:33

the I have had

1:10:35

personal experiences with diagnoseable mental health

1:10:37

and and have found my path

1:10:39

through that. Luckily, I

1:10:43

owe that completely to the the support structures around me

1:10:45

and the the people that have helped

1:10:47

me along that journey and

1:10:49

allowed me to open up.

1:10:52

But I I have also

1:10:54

seen it in others very routes. I I think

1:10:59

UNC

1:11:00

is not unique right now on

1:11:02

in this country of dealing with the issue of

1:11:06

a mental health crisis on college campuses

1:11:08

in a crisis of

1:11:11

teen suicide, in

1:11:13

an adolescent suicide.

1:11:16

UNC had this trouble

1:11:18

last year. And this year, we've seen deaths on

1:11:20

NC States campus just down the

1:11:22

road in in Raleigh as well.

1:11:27

though So these

1:11:28

are relevant issues, not

1:11:31

just for for student athletes,

1:11:33

but I think

1:11:35

anyone in the college and and adolescent young adult space.

1:11:38

Depression and anxiety, like

1:11:40

I said, are are

1:11:42

dangerous if if they go

1:11:45

unaided if people don't find the right support. And if people

1:11:47

aren't offered the right support, I

1:11:51

think it's a onus

1:11:54

on everyone whether you're a

1:11:57

teammate, you're a friend, a

1:11:59

peer, a professor, a

1:12:02

coach, an administrator to always

1:12:04

be willing to be that that hand

1:12:06

that someone needs to look out for the people around you.

1:12:12

because I think the the silence aspect

1:12:14

of it, the loneliness, it often we

1:12:16

often see depression and anxiety and

1:12:18

people that we would never expect.

1:12:22

in some of my early experience

1:12:24

with in community

1:12:26

based response to suicide,

1:12:29

especially suicide in young

1:12:31

people, is that it's the it's the high

1:12:33

achievers oftentimes. It's it's people that

1:12:35

everyone says, they were the

1:12:38

person I would have gone to.

1:12:40

if I if I needed help.

1:12:42

So it's it's insidious and it's it's hard

1:12:44

to to notice a

1:12:46

lot of the time. So

1:12:48

Often, it's not about picking

1:12:50

it out of a crowd, but just cultivating the type of relationships and

1:12:56

support where anyone at

1:12:58

any time Callahan feel open to having that conversation with you. It was such a

1:13:00

fantastic, an honest response, and I

1:13:02

appreciate

1:13:02

And I'm so glad that

1:13:07

you know, you pointed out, it is just kind of this societal.

1:13:09

And I don't maybe in many ways,

1:13:11

a universal issue University

1:13:14

experience. Right? It's not just prevalent

1:13:17

at Duke or UNC

1:13:19

or said university. I

1:13:21

mean, this is a universal thing that

1:13:23

we're seeing across the nation. And we're just

1:13:25

talking, you know, I'm not talking specifically

1:13:28

about suicide alley. I'm talking just Duke

1:13:30

mental health. Right? Because mental health is

1:13:32

not Let's, again, we said

1:13:34

it yesterday during yesterday's panel discussion. I'm going to say it again. I'm going to say it at every single

1:13:39

Conversations. Mental health not just about dysfunction

1:13:41

or illness or disorder. Right? It's just about, to me, it's just about being

1:13:43

human and living. Right? So, and

1:13:46

you're right, I think

1:13:48

that And again,

1:13:50

I wanna appreciate send my gratitude to all of you for being so courageous and and coming here on this

1:13:52

conversation. Because

1:13:57

what you were just talking about, I think a lot of people

1:13:59

can get really scared to come

1:13:59

in this conversation

1:14:01

because they don't

1:14:04

wanna get know, it's hard. It's

1:14:06

already hard enough as it is and no one wants to be blamed. And this is not a conversation about blaming anybody blaming UNC

1:14:11

about what happened. but it's

1:14:13

also about pushing this conversation forward. And for us to not sit in silence and

1:14:15

for us to not discuss

1:14:18

it, but talk about what

1:14:22

Duke we learn? So what what do you think was maybe a learning lesson from some of those things about

1:14:25

how we can

1:14:28

further help THIS

1:14:30

COMMUNITY AND

1:14:31

EVERYBODY ELSE ACROSS THE COUNTRY. I

1:14:35

THINK ONE OF the

1:14:40

largest lessons that

1:14:40

that come out of any

1:14:43

of these experiences. You know, I

1:14:45

I hate to talk about meeting these

1:14:47

kinds of experiences or the instance of a

1:14:49

a student suicide to spark action or or to find a

1:14:51

lesson. Because I think there are

1:14:53

lessons that we can take

1:14:55

from not just crisis

1:14:57

and tragedy, but just from our daily lives

1:14:59

of connecting with people and being genuine

1:15:02

in your relationships is is the first

1:15:04

step. people

1:15:07

want to connect with each other. They they want

1:15:09

to have relationships where people are open to

1:15:11

not just have the mask

1:15:14

on and be the perfectionist,

1:15:16

the high achiever, the happy,

1:15:18

go lucky person all the time. But I think the relationships we all want to have

1:15:20

are the ones where we can come in

1:15:22

on a bad day and and recognize that.

1:15:26

So the first lesson is is cultivating those

1:15:29

kinds of relationships. So if you're in

1:15:31

a position of leadership, whether

1:15:33

you're a team captain, in in the

1:15:35

student athlete sense or if, you know,

1:15:37

you're a president of a club or

1:15:39

involved in some other way

1:15:42

on campus,

1:15:42

having

1:15:44

the knowledge and

1:15:46

the skills to

1:15:49

cultivate those kind of

1:15:51

relationships and supportive structures, I think,

1:15:53

is so crucial to making sure people have supportive

1:15:56

spaces to

1:15:59

turn to. And then second, you know, a little bit more on

1:16:01

the training and skills part to be

1:16:03

able to bring that is

1:16:06

I think people should seek out to the knowledge

1:16:08

to to be able to be that

1:16:10

person that people can come to.

1:16:12

So there's great

1:16:15

trainings around suicide prevention. mental

1:16:17

health first aid. We talk about, you know, CPR training

1:16:19

and and a lot of people have to

1:16:21

go through that in the

1:16:23

student athlete world. to

1:16:27

be, you know, on a

1:16:29

field and and participating in a physical activity.

1:16:31

But we should also recognize that

1:16:33

there's just as much important to having

1:16:35

that kind of training to be a

1:16:38

a mental health first aid

1:16:40

supporter.

1:16:42

supporter Yeah. Thank you. And

1:16:43

you're right cultivating those relationships,

1:16:46

creating spaces, creating resources,

1:16:49

and so Anna and

1:16:51

Kat, both of you are heavily involved in Morgan's message

1:16:53

and initiative aimed at eliminating

1:16:56

the stigma surrounding mental health,

1:16:58

especially within the student athlete community.

1:17:00

So Kat, let's

1:17:02

start with you. If you could explain

1:17:04

just a little bit about your involvement and what

1:17:06

what really this this mission is. Yeah.

1:17:09

Duke Anna had

1:17:11

mentioned earlier, we both lost a friend

1:17:13

in teammate, Morgan Rogers. She died

1:17:15

by suicide in

1:17:17

July of twenty nineteen. and that

1:17:20

was I think somewhat like earth

1:17:22

shattering at least for me because

1:17:25

I kind of was like, that could have

1:17:27

been anyone. Like, yes, Morgan struggled,

1:17:30

but it's not just Morgan.

1:17:32

Like, it could have

1:17:34

been my sister. It could like, in the right.

1:17:36

Like, it's not just her. It's, like,

1:17:39

there are other people who I was on

1:17:41

a team with her who I went to Duke

1:17:43

with her on other athletic teams struggled with some of the

1:17:45

same things, and somehow they were able

1:17:47

to get the help that

1:17:49

they needed. They were able

1:17:52

to, like, raise their hands, and Morgan was

1:17:54

not. And why was that? Like, what did she feel that didn't

1:17:56

allow her to

1:17:59

ask for

1:17:59

that help? And I think it

1:18:02

comes back to, like, with that education. And it's educating people in these positions

1:18:05

of power.

1:18:08

It's educating teammates,

1:18:09

it's educating the individual as to, like,

1:18:11

what the resources are, what different mental

1:18:13

you

1:18:16

know, anxiety, depression, what those look like, and

1:18:18

what those feel like, and try to identify them within yourselves.

1:18:20

And, you know,

1:18:23

a year later, a group of us who had, you

1:18:25

know, New Morgan in different capacities. So a few friends from

1:18:27

high school were on our

1:18:29

club team, her mom, her

1:18:32

twin sister, we got together, and it

1:18:34

was basically a conversation of not enough being done. Like, Morgan's not the first.

1:18:36

She's not gonna be

1:18:37

the last. Like, we know this

1:18:39

is an issue. what

1:18:42

can we do about it as people

1:18:44

who have watched someone we left

1:18:46

struggle and also struggled ourselves and

1:18:49

also don't understand totally what, you know,

1:18:52

should what

1:18:52

the conversation should

1:18:53

be. But, like, knowing that, you

1:18:56

know, from, like, a a

1:18:57

family perspective, like, that wasn't something

1:18:59

that, you know, were necessarily

1:19:01

talking about. Like, you know, Curt and Donna, Duke, they had no idea how to ask or talk

1:19:03

about mental health because it wasn't something

1:19:06

they had experienced when they were

1:19:08

younger. And

1:19:11

we knew there needed to be more Duke. And if,

1:19:13

you know, these student athletes weren't gonna

1:19:15

get the support at the university

1:19:17

level, like, what could

1:19:19

we be to provide an outlet. And and

1:19:21

even before Anna came in the

1:19:23

picture, like, the first thing

1:19:24

we were gonna do was

1:19:26

start a podcast. Start some sort

1:19:28

of storytelling

1:19:29

platform where people could safely come, listen to a story, and then

1:19:31

see themselves within that story

1:19:34

Ethan say, okay, I'm not

1:19:36

alone. this

1:19:38

is what this person did. Yeah. It works for them. It

1:19:40

might not work for me, but, like, I

1:19:42

noticed that there are similarities, there are parallels,

1:19:44

like, I can raise my hand and like giving

1:19:46

them courage and a safe space to come and Anna

1:19:49

really raised her hand and said, hey, I

1:19:51

have a mental and he told me

1:19:53

if this off. But,

1:19:54

like, I have a group at Duke. I'm really focused on mental health. Like, I've experienced

1:19:56

it. I wanna help start

1:19:58

this conversation. I wanna

1:19:59

bring Morgan's message

1:20:03

to Duke, how do we do that? Mhmm. And Anna raising her

1:20:05

hand and saying, like, this is an issue.

1:20:07

We need

1:20:07

to talk about it

1:20:09

and, like, we can do this together. Like,

1:20:11

stronger do we collaborate? And that's what kicked

1:20:14

off the ambassador program that now has

1:20:16

grown

1:20:16

to,

1:20:18

like, four hundred campuses, which is crazy. And I

1:20:21

always say it's crazy the amount of growth

1:20:23

because you know that there's a

1:20:26

need. Duke, you know that there is a demand

1:20:28

for this or else it would not Morgan's

1:20:30

message would not have grown as exponentially

1:20:33

as it has the past two years.

1:20:35

done job at Duke. I mean, we're so lucky

1:20:38

to to have her onboard. I mean,

1:20:40

she's

1:20:41

a rock star.

1:20:43

Thank you. No. Now I

1:20:44

I think to Kath's point, I

1:20:46

just remember texting miss Donna, actually.

1:20:48

And I was on my

1:20:51

way down to to from

1:20:54

I think it

1:20:55

was, like, going back to school from COVID. And I texted her and

1:20:57

I was, like, I just

1:20:59

wanna stop buying, like, first

1:21:02

of all, check-in, like, see how you guys

1:21:04

are doing. And then I also, like, had

1:21:06

kind of an idea. And I remember stopping

1:21:08

by and I was there literally for, like,

1:21:10

hours just because they're the best and they're the best. They really are the

1:21:13

best. And, like, Ethan such a great conversation,

1:21:15

but then Connor had mentioned Ethan name

1:21:18

of the group that we had was literally mental

1:21:20

health advocacy for student athletes.

1:21:22

Like, there was literally Duke

1:21:25

name. It was very rough. It

1:21:27

started May during the pandemic, and we had a

1:21:29

couple meetings. And I was like,

1:21:31

I really feel

1:21:34

like it should be named after Morgan, or we really

1:21:36

try to, like, inter loop Morgan into

1:21:38

this. So I had pitched that idea

1:21:40

to miss Donna, and

1:21:43

she was like, okay. funny

1:21:45

you say that because we have a nonprofit

1:21:47

that we started or we're working on starting called Morgan's message. So, like,

1:21:49

roughly, we were like, okay, Morgan's messengers.

1:21:51

Like, what do do

1:21:55

to, like, get this out there, and then that's kinda where

1:21:57

the ambassador program was born

1:21:59

from. And,

1:21:59

again, like, just the support that

1:22:02

I've had from people like Hat and you

1:22:04

know, all the people on board at Morgan's message

1:22:06

to start this program. It was the first ambassador program. It was kind

1:22:08

of like a little pilot launch

1:22:11

to see all things won. and

1:22:13

we've had it for so long and

1:22:15

it's done so well. And I mean, not not to say that, you know, I

1:22:20

don't wanna be like, oh, can you hear me?

1:22:22

Can you hear me? Okay. Sorry. I don't

1:22:23

wanna be like, oh, Morgan's message has, like, changed

1:22:25

the lives of so many people on

1:22:27

Duke's campus, but, like, really

1:22:29

think it Ethan. And people have really telling it has too. Yeah. And I think people have

1:22:31

really told us directly, like, how

1:22:35

much it's changed just

1:22:38

in my small circle, the lives of student athletes at Duke just to see that it's being talked about and to have

1:22:40

a space where they

1:22:43

can be like, hey, I

1:22:45

have a shared experience. I I'm

1:22:47

a anxiety talk performance anxiety in

1:22:50

our next meeting. People

1:22:52

feel not

1:22:54

as alone, you know. And especially on

1:22:56

the men's side of athletics, we really need

1:22:58

more talked about, especially from men's mental health,

1:23:01

Ben's Mental Health in athletics is

1:23:03

just not talked about enough. And we're working on partnering

1:23:05

with November, which is like that where people grow their

1:23:08

mustaches for processing,

1:23:11

testicular cancer health,

1:23:12

and then it's also for men's mental health.

1:23:14

So we're working on this November kind of

1:23:17

partnering with them and I just think that's an aspect that we

1:23:19

can continue to grow and work on, but

1:23:22

this ambassador program has changed the lives

1:23:24

of so many

1:23:26

and, you know, I was

1:23:27

in my conversation with and mister Kurt. They

1:23:29

were saying, you know, Morgan really liked the idea

1:23:31

of being a sports psychologist. So I think it's

1:23:33

really cool that we get to do the work

1:23:35

that she wanted to do. and I

1:23:37

just feel very honored and blessed to be part of something so

1:23:39

amazing with so many amazing people. That's

1:23:43

so cool.

1:23:43

I mean, as the both of you talk about

1:23:46

this and spreading the word and

1:23:48

providing a platform

1:23:50

and a space for to talk about

1:23:52

this. Even if they're not talking about to engage in the space

1:23:54

the way they want, I just get chills because, you

1:23:58

know, you're

1:23:59

you're doing angels and angels work, you know,

1:24:02

and and that's that's just so that's so amazing.

1:24:04

And I think you're right. I think

1:24:06

we

1:24:06

need to talk about it. So you

1:24:10

know, there's this concept that people clinicians, some clinicians have talked about, so it's like contagion.

1:24:12

So I'm going to

1:24:14

read Ethan definition of it.

1:24:17

because it's one that I'm still

1:24:20

learning about admittedly. Okay? The definition of suicide contagion

1:24:22

is exposure to suicide or suicidal behaviors within one's

1:24:24

family peer

1:24:27

group or media reports of suicide, and that that

1:24:29

influences others

1:24:30

to end their own life or attempting

1:24:32

suicide. So

1:24:34

there's diff different views of

1:24:36

this. So basically, to break it down in

1:24:38

layman's terms, it's the thought of

1:24:41

just talking about suicide. actually somehow

1:24:44

increases other people's likelihoods

1:24:46

of thinking about it

1:24:48

or actually

1:24:50

attempting and

1:24:50

executing the act of killing themselves.

1:24:53

So I

1:24:54

immediately was a

1:24:56

part of a separate

1:24:59

conversation that was part of a broadcast. And

1:25:04

before we

1:25:04

began our show,

1:25:07

there was a conversation of

1:25:09

this. And the belief was that

1:25:10

we can't we're not gonna talk about

1:25:13

it on

1:25:16

today's show. and it was about

1:25:18

student athletes.

1:25:18

And it was shortly after we had we saw the string of suicides across

1:25:22

the combination the

1:25:24

nation. And

1:25:25

I didn't know what to say. You

1:25:27

know, I've I've been in broadcasting for eighteen years and I was like, well, I'm just a doctoral

1:25:32

student. You know?

1:25:32

So what am I gonna say? So we didn't

1:25:35

for the

1:25:35

next thirty minutes, we didn't talk about it. In everybody,

1:25:37

it was like the

1:25:38

elephant in the room. Right? So,

1:25:42

and I come

1:25:43

from a background where not

1:25:45

talking about it didn't help.

1:25:47

So, that didn't work. So

1:25:49

I'm I feel like we need to

1:25:51

talk about it. Can I just get your general thoughts on would you say? And how would you

1:25:53

be a part of this discussion

1:25:55

when somebody says, We

1:25:59

can't talk about it because we think

1:26:01

that that might

1:26:02

influence others. I

1:26:04

hi this is

1:26:05

really interesting because

1:26:07

I have a, like, very clear perspective

1:26:09

on this and background is my one

1:26:11

of my brother's best friends,

1:26:15

his he lost

1:26:15

his brother. His brother died by suicide. And

1:26:16

my mom was at the funeral. This is when

1:26:19

I was in high school,

1:26:20

I wanna say, and

1:26:22

she was talking to the dad. and the dad was like, you know,

1:26:24

I asked him every single

1:26:26

day. Do

1:26:26

you like,

1:26:29

are you

1:26:31

going to tried under, like, today. How are you

1:26:31

feeling? And I asked him that

1:26:34

because I was involved with therapy,

1:26:36

like, all these things, and she he

1:26:38

he said to my mom, like, I

1:26:41

know I'm not putting that

1:26:43

idea in his head. If it is there, it's there because he's thinking

1:26:48

about it. And he has access to

1:26:50

the Internet. He has access to all these different thoughts. And my mom took on the perspective of, like,

1:26:52

instead of being fearful that

1:26:54

I'm giving my child this idea,

1:26:58

I'm giving my child the opportunity to

1:27:00

voice if they are having

1:27:02

thoughts about it. And

1:27:04

so that's how we approached

1:27:06

it, and that's how I kind of approached it

1:27:09

as like, are you struggling? Are you thinking

1:27:11

about hurting yourself? Because chances are if you're

1:27:13

saying it to someone, if

1:27:14

they are, they're thinking about it already.

1:27:16

You aren't introducing this. You're

1:27:18

not inventing a

1:27:19

vacuum. Right? it's like this

1:27:22

idea is out there in the open and I feel really passionate about

1:27:24

Lee if we don't talk about it,

1:27:26

people aren't gonna feel safe with raising

1:27:28

their hands. Right? Like, if

1:27:30

we're not

1:27:30

having these conversations, like, loneliness

1:27:33

depression, they thrive in the shadows. They thrive inside our

1:27:35

minds. And when we vocalize and we think

1:27:37

through and we talk through

1:27:40

and we talk

1:27:43

to people we feel safe with, that's when we get

1:27:45

out of that loneliness in our

1:27:47

head.

1:27:47

So I feel passionately

1:27:50

that like it needs to be a conversation because you're not

1:27:52

introducing it for the first time. And if

1:27:54

the more you know and the more

1:27:56

you can tell about their reaction of, like,

1:27:59

Oh, no. Like, when

1:27:59

people get cagey, right? Like, if a friend gets

1:28:02

cagey when you're like, are you gonna hurt yourself?

1:28:05

That's a sign that, like, maybe you need

1:28:07

to talk to someone

1:28:07

else to get them help. So I yeah.

1:28:09

I I don't think I

1:28:12

think

1:28:13

not talking about it is one of

1:28:15

the worst things you can do in my opinion. Thank you for

1:28:16

saying that. We need to hear and I

1:28:19

know that took a lot of

1:28:21

guts and courage for you to say that. But people need

1:28:23

to hear this. There's a lot of people that believe

1:28:25

in this. And this is not to say that

1:28:27

this concept and construct

1:28:31

is not true But it's how we

1:28:33

talk about it. Right? because we can have a productive conversation about it where it can

1:28:35

be helpful and

1:28:39

informative and educational. Right? And so I

1:28:41

I think the suicide contagion aspect, they're kinda seeing that it has to do more with the media

1:28:43

reporting and how it

1:28:47

is reported or broadcasted to to the general society.

1:28:49

So, Kath, thank you so much for for

1:28:51

pointing that out. Ethan, do

1:28:54

you have any thoughts about this? Yeah.

1:28:56

I've seen suicide contagion, and

1:28:58

I couldn't agree more with Kat. I mean, every

1:29:00

instance that I've

1:29:03

seen of suicide contagion happens,

1:29:05

not because people were talking about suicide or or people were opening

1:29:08

up that

1:29:10

Conversations, but because they

1:29:14

were intimately exposed to someone they knew or appear,

1:29:16

someone within their

1:29:19

direct community. And it Ethan

1:29:23

normalizes the idea that suicide is

1:29:25

an option for for people

1:29:28

who are

1:29:32

experiencing hopelessness. So I

1:29:34

have never heard of an instance that talking about suicide or asking

1:29:37

someone if