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1:32

The next chapter with Prince Rupert is

1:34

a production of iHeartRadio. Hey,

1:37

everybody. It's prem. Welcome to

1:39

the next chapter presented by Baron Davis

1:41

in slick studios. This week's guest

1:44

is four time all American men's

1:46

lacrosse player at Johns Hopkins University,

1:49

two time NCAA champion, two

1:51

time world champion, three

1:53

time professional lacrosse champion, three

1:55

time MVP, Professional lacrosse's

1:58

all time scoring champion, Gold

2:00

Medalist, routine USA Crew. And

2:03

more recently, the co founder and president

2:06

of the premier lacrosse league

2:08

Paul Ravell. I'm

2:11

gonna be totally honest with you. I don't

2:13

necessarily have a good handle on look across.

2:15

My knowledge about it is shoddy at

2:17

best, but I do know

2:19

that if there is anyone

2:20

to know in this for as

2:22

you can tell from his lengthy resume. It's

2:25

Paul. So

2:25

when many have dubbed the greatest

2:28

lacrosse player

2:28

of all time and He's

2:30

also one of the few players that was really

2:32

able to make a living as a pro

2:35

across athlete. But

2:36

it was just last year that he announced

2:39

his retirement from, what

2:41

he describes as, this beautiful

2:43

game I love. After

2:45

a fourteen year school career

2:48

in after twenty four years

2:50

of playing. Which means

2:53

this season was his first on the

2:55

sidelines as a retired athlete. he

2:57

certainly got his hands full with the PLL,

2:59

which he co founded with his brother Mike Raebel.

3:01

You know, I think

3:04

what stands out to me about my

3:06

conversation with Paul, which was recorded

3:08

right before his ESPN documentary came

3:11

out in August, is

3:13

that The greatest athletes

3:16

in the world are

3:18

not

3:19

immune to pain. and

3:21

that some of their best moments

3:23

across their careers or even in

3:25

light actually

3:27

came from a place of pain, whether it stemmed

3:29

from an injury or a

3:31

failure or a mistake or even a huge

3:34

loss. And

3:35

that's something you'll hear Paul talk

3:37

about. his relationship with pain, whether

3:39

it be physical, emotional, or

3:41

psychological, and

3:43

how some of his most pivotal

3:45

moments and periods of his career and

3:48

his most significant victories were

3:50

inspired

3:52

by some of his worst moments.

3:55

And so we talked about this

3:56

the spectrum

3:58

where the best and the worst

3:59

moments live as well as the successes and the

4:02

pains and everything else in between and how

4:04

to pack out is actually through

4:06

acceptance of that

4:06

entire spectrum of experiences.

4:10

My hope is that From this conversation,

4:13

you will reflect on how you process, not

4:15

just your victories in life, but also

4:17

your losses and failures and what your

4:20

relationship

4:20

with pain is.

4:22

So

4:23

would that further ado?

4:25

Here's Paul Rabel.

4:49

Well, welcome to the show Paul.

4:51

Thank you so much for joining us. How

4:54

are you doing? I'm

4:56

doing well. Thanks for having me. Yeah.

4:58

think of our our season heading into play

5:00

off. So I'm I'm bouncing between New York,

5:02

LA and and every stop

5:05

across the country that we

5:07

make. I know.

5:07

Well, thank you for squeezing us into

5:10

your busiest schedule. But you

5:12

know what, what I've been doing recently is just

5:14

kind of doing kind of like a warm up rapid

5:16

fires. So would you like to

5:17

start off with that? I'm just gonna jump

5:19

right back. I didn't do it. Yeah. I would be happy

5:21

to just, like, jump into the deep end. Let's

5:25

We're gonna jump into the

5:27

shallow end and then the deep end and then back over to

5:29

the shallow end. Okay. So

5:31

first one, three words that

5:33

described you as an athlete.

5:36

Oh, I would say competitive

5:39

the

5:41

hungry and

5:43

and

5:45

unsatisfied.

5:48

unsatisfied. Great. We're

5:51

yeah. Okay. I'm gonna have to go back to that.

5:53

Favorite sport growing up.

5:56

Basketball. favorite

5:58

athlete growing up.

5:59

Michael Jordan.

6:01

Nice. Favorite sports team

6:04

growing up.

6:05

Probably the Chicago Bulls.

6:08

Okay.

6:08

Mhmm. Yeah.

6:10

Okay. Your strength

6:13

as an athlete. probably

6:15

my

6:17

I would say, well, this

6:19

isn't confined to one answer. This time is

6:21

what it sounds like. So I would say my endurance

6:24

and grit, probably some

6:26

resilience in there.

6:27

Nice. Your weakness as

6:30

an athlete.

6:31

my

6:34

temper.

6:35

Your

6:37

favorite and best moment as an

6:39

athlete. Fortunately,

6:41

there just wasn't one.

6:44

Yeah.

6:44

Yeah. It's and

6:46

and I could I could give you

6:49

Championship one and and a championship game

6:51

loss equally as

6:53

important.

6:54

Okay. So how about worse

6:57

moment as an athlete with one

6:59

of those Yeah. I know where I'm out of yeah.

7:01

They know that's that's sort of it.

7:03

Right? Is our worst moments tend to

7:07

help us wind into our best.

7:09

So if you'd sit back in reflection,

7:12

the the championship losses

7:16

or the championship losses. Okay.

7:20

I can really hit that again. So if

7:22

if if you

7:23

think about it,

7:24

the world championship loss that I had in

7:26

twenty fourteen led to

7:29

a world championship win in twenty

7:31

eighteen and a response that had in every

7:33

season between and same thing with

7:35

injury.

7:36

Right? We one thing we signed up

7:38

for is athletes is

7:40

that we will get injured,

7:43

and we will experience

7:45

pain. And if

7:47

you're just like therapeutically in

7:50

relationships, if you apply the

7:52

learnings from medical professionals and

7:54

physical therapists, you actually come

7:56

out better because you learn

7:58

how to

7:59

reformat your

8:02

your

8:02

operating system. But when you think about the

8:04

game, your behaviors, nutrition, and sleep,

8:06

to hydration, to even your running

8:08

mechanics, So

8:10

all that long winded way of in

8:12

a rapid fire segment to say the

8:14

worst moments are the best moments.

8:16

my

8:17

god. That's awesome. I love

8:19

it. Well worded.

8:20

Funny its moment as an

8:22

athlete.

8:29

I

8:29

I guess I have this thing that people think is

8:31

odd and and maybe funny where I

8:33

just am so drenched

8:36

after games and we get to the locker

8:38

room. First thing I do is just take off

8:40

my Jersey and my shorts

8:42

and and that leave

8:44

my cleats on and everything because I just want

8:47

to hold the horn off. And so

8:49

I'll just kinda be, like, walking around in my

8:51

spandex and cleats.

8:53

you know, I'm surprised that

8:55

that's that's a that's a theme. And you

8:57

see it in our documentary too about

9:00

Exactly. I get it. It's

9:02

terrible, black.

9:05

I

9:05

like it. One

9:07

activity and hobby that you do

9:09

that replaces the feeling of

9:11

sport or being an athlete?

9:14

Nothing can replace

9:17

the sense of being

9:19

a professional athlete going to field of

9:22

full and inherent presence

9:25

and and a lot right on the

9:27

line. So I

9:28

think what we try to do is

9:32

fill that delta

9:34

with different, you know, moments

9:36

or hobbies or activities that can

9:38

accumulate over time?

9:39

Yeah. Well, it's really

9:42

interesting. Thank

9:42

you for doing the the rapid fire.

9:44

And, you know,

9:46

it's interesting that you say that because I feel like

9:48

it's

9:49

it's

9:50

shortly into your

9:52

post retirement career because you just retired

9:55

last year. It wasn't it's really not that

9:57

long ago, and this is kind of your first season on

9:59

the so called

9:59

sidelines. And of course, you have a lot in your

10:02

plate. So so how

10:04

is retired life going for

10:06

you?

10:07

I would say it's challenging. You

10:09

know? Like like a lot of athletes would

10:11

would probably allude to and and if they're

10:13

being honest. Because you you

10:15

miss the the competition on the field

10:18

and that kind of

10:20

alter universe that you get

10:22

to step into once a week or multiple

10:24

times a week where especially in a

10:26

modern day society of technology and

10:28

distractions as everything goes away.

10:30

And I've newly got to

10:32

experience how powerful that was

10:35

when I cofounded the PLL with my

10:37

brother Mike in that

10:39

my biggest fear in our collective

10:41

concern and even our board at the

10:43

time was you know, what is

10:46

what is the environment

10:48

going to be from a perceived

10:50

conflict of interest? for our fans,

10:52

for the players, and for you, Paul,

10:54

when when you step on the field and then

10:56

start looking at empty seats in

10:58

the stands or a sponsored

11:00

board that's all fucked up or, you know,

11:02

understanding when the time outbreaks are and

11:04

how the reps are doing and their scorecard after

11:06

the game that's gonna be processed by the front

11:08

office. Like, are you gonna be able to process all that and

11:10

still play? And and what I found was,

11:12

you know, once you shoot up and step on the field,

11:14

you everything else goes away. And and and we

11:16

talked about value of that in

11:18

sports at an early age. You get

11:20

away from the distractions, from the bad

11:22

grades, from the failed tests, from the

11:24

broken relationships, and get

11:26

on the field and you just kinda get to sort it out in

11:28

a really present meaningful

11:30

way of activity.

11:32

And that even existed at

11:35

at the co founding level in the in the

11:37

highest stakes of a pro league in his venture

11:39

back. So I appreciated

11:42

that more and more and I miss it.

11:47

Yeah, that

11:47

is really true. I think a lot of athletes

11:49

talk about that, especially for

11:51

athletes that come from more disadvantaged

11:53

backgrounds, or they're experiencing

11:55

a lot of challenges early on. They

11:57

oftentimes talk about how sport

11:59

can be that great escape.

12:01

So I think my next my next question

12:04

is because sport

12:06

was able to offer you

12:08

that that escape or

12:10

you're able to get away from things. In

12:13

the year that you have stepped

12:15

away from sport, have you noticed anything

12:17

coming back? to the

12:19

surface that maybe you were able to get

12:21

away from or just how you

12:23

manage things differently? Yeah.

12:25

I think I think you just have to and

12:28

it's part of life is evolving

12:31

and reconciling and

12:33

adapting and going

12:35

inward. So

12:37

I would say I'm I'm actually if I'm a

12:39

timing standpoint, I'm actually I've actually come out of it.

12:41

It took about, like, eight

12:43

months because it was also around

12:47

the cusp of some pretty

12:49

significant changes in my life from

12:51

location, obviously

12:53

retiring from a sport I had played for twenty four

12:55

years to having major

12:57

surgery on my knee and that

12:59

kind of put me on the sideline where I actually couldn't

13:01

walk for eight weeks So it was it

13:03

was a lot of, like, major life

13:05

altering events at once. And

13:08

it was a big reset button

13:10

for me. through through

13:12

most of twenty twenty two.

13:14

And and and,

13:16

yeah, it's just a matter of kind of

13:18

doing the work, I think.

13:20

And and I did

13:22

a lot of that work, and I

13:25

feel like, I'm in a better position now than I

13:27

was three months ago. As I've done, like, six

13:29

months ago. Yeah. I

13:31

feel feel really grateful, and I think that's part of the work.

13:33

And is understanding the gratitude tied to everything

13:35

that we're doing and and

13:38

in reflection. So that's

13:40

that's all part of. I think the equation

13:43

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.

13:45

I think I love the way you described it, but

13:47

it is it is work. It's a lot of work.

13:49

I mean, for me, as I've said multiple

13:52

times across this show and this

13:54

series. Is that for me, that work? You

13:56

know, you think it's it's over

13:58

and then like three years later,

14:00

you realize, oh, I've got more work to do. And then

14:02

for me, it was like ten years later. I'm like, oh, I

14:04

thought the work was done. And apparently, it's not.

14:06

I had some unresolved issues.

14:08

that I continue to to continue

14:10

by just working on. So,

14:12

you know, when you talk about

14:15

work and going inward, Could

14:17

you describe, especially for a lot of the athletes

14:19

out there that are listening and also coaches

14:21

and sports parents? Can you describe

14:23

in detail what that work involved?

14:25

And would it would it involve for

14:27

you? Yeah.

14:29

Well, it started for me probably

14:32

eight years ago or so when I

14:34

was a

14:35

part of a team that lost the world championship

14:37

against Canada, and that was twenty

14:39

fourteen. And and

14:41

then I got into sports psychology and

14:43

and kind of compounded that,

14:45

call it, fracture of loss with a with

14:47

an actual compound fracture in my foot.

14:50

So I went from losing one the biggest

14:52

games of my career to then

14:54

being sidelined for six months and

14:57

at the really, at the peak of my career, I was twenty

14:59

eight and playing quite well. So

15:01

sports psychology was a

15:04

big aspect of going

15:06

inward. It's it's getting supported. It's like a mental

15:08

coach. It's the same thing as having

15:10

a teacher and professor or a parent or a

15:13

mentor, a shooting

15:15

coach if you're a lacrosse player

15:17

or Uber things of that nature.

15:19

So I I had a sports

15:21

psychologist, and then I got into personal

15:23

therapy. I began

15:25

meditating. I journal quite a bit. I

15:28

I really think about my morning routines

15:30

as an indicator of whether or not I

15:32

have a successful day. And,

15:35

yeah, and then I think, like, the principles

15:37

of of healthy living, which

15:39

is rest recovery

15:41

hydration. So it

15:43

it those are,

15:45

like, the ingredients. And then I would say

15:48

a lot of the work

15:51

and the time lives around

15:54

our ability to

15:56

sit with the pain and not

15:58

try to

15:59

hubbard

15:59

covered up with

16:01

escapisms, then that

16:03

could be, you know, all different types of

16:06

vices, drinking, drugs,

16:08

sex, you know, just ways to kind

16:10

of step away

16:12

from what it

16:14

is you're, like, feeling in your fiber

16:17

And and and

16:19

change just requires and deserves

16:21

space that

16:23

either, you know, you you

16:25

have to give for yourself, your partner can give

16:27

for you, they can live there with you,

16:29

your family, your friends, and

16:32

Oh, and have friends. Friends are really important.

16:35

And and they and they show up

16:37

in in, like, the most trivial

16:40

and challenging times in

16:42

our lives.

16:42

Yeah. So your work,

16:45

the work

16:45

that you were talking about with regards

16:48

to after you retired,

16:50

the work actually began eight

16:52

years ago. So

16:53

you've been working

16:55

at at maybe in preparing

16:57

yourself for this moment, whether it was

16:59

purpose in the sense like, oh, this work that I'm

17:01

doing, less for retirement, more

17:03

for your performance as an athlete, but also

17:05

in in life. And it's so interesting that

17:07

you talk about just all

17:09

of those things and you're totally speaking my

17:12

language because I journal, I

17:14

meditate. One of my favorite

17:16

books is Miracle Morning, where It talks about

17:18

just like the foundation in the morning. You spend five minutes doing

17:20

all of these things exercise,

17:22

set your intentions for the day,

17:26

and and then also score

17:28

psychology and therapy. And when I

17:30

started doing a lot of those things, I had begun

17:32

therapy myself. So what was it you

17:34

said you were around twenty eight years old

17:36

around that time when all those things started

17:38

so what what was going

17:39

on around that time that you really

17:42

start making some of

17:43

these changes and pretty

17:45

big changes? Well,

17:47

I think you make

17:50

decisions around catastrophe or

17:52

trauma or or not my

17:54

case, I had mentioned the Louisiana World

17:56

Championship and breaking my foot.

17:58

So you go into this hole and you try to figure out how to

18:00

solve for it. And, you know,

18:02

the way that my brain works

18:05

is, like, really leans left in

18:07

in logic related to

18:10

my career. And then I I

18:12

think you know, my right side creativity

18:16

tends to find its way on the

18:18

field as an athlete or

18:20

creatively in our business. Right? kind

18:22

of oversee our media marketing and attention strategy.

18:25

So I would say, yeah. I

18:27

mean, one of the wife's paradox

18:29

and I could give you a sports metaphor

18:32

is is we tend to

18:34

not really

18:36

focus on the moments of growth

18:39

until we absolutely have to. So

18:41

sometimes it requires a lot of pain and

18:43

loss to to get on the right

18:45

track. Or my own so the sports

18:47

metaphors reminds me of an injury. Like,

18:49

we we all heard that it's really about

18:51

your rehab, your physical therapy after

18:53

your surgery. And

18:55

the

18:56

the and And that's when we're in a

18:58

lot of pain. And then we stop doing

19:00

a rehab. We don't do the physical therapy

19:03

because we're not feeling the pain anymore, and

19:05

then it will, like, come back a reminder. So by the way, you have

19:07

to do this work and the work doesn't stop.

19:09

Mhmm. And so it's

19:11

it's usually signaled by some

19:13

sort of pain where we start getting ourselves on track

19:15

and then the long term lesson, which is what kind

19:17

of what I learned is that, you know, while I had

19:19

started the work, I had kind

19:21

of eased up on it because I felt like, okay, I

19:24

was I was in the right direction

19:26

and had

19:27

had felt

19:29

like I had a sense of,

19:31

you know, pro level

19:34

mastery of the fundamentals and was

19:36

quickly reminded that I didn't And

19:38

so that was one of the lessons is,

19:40

like, the work just doesn't stop. So

19:42

right now, when I'm feeling better and a

19:44

little bit out of it, that's when I I should

19:46

just actually get back into it.

19:49

Howard Bauchner: Yeah,

19:50

it's so fascinating to hear you

19:53

talk about your journey and

19:55

in the short time that we have been

19:58

talking, you have mentioned just

19:59

like your experience with pain,

20:02

whether it's physical or emotional, just

20:04

general life moments of

20:06

of challenges and

20:08

obstacles. And I think that for me,

20:10

heading into the interview, I kinda like

20:12

to pose hypothesis in my mind.

20:14

And so I kind of as I go into the

20:16

the interview, I I see whether or

20:18

not that holds up. And

20:20

my hypothesis was that

20:23

you know, really out of all athletes that I've talked to,

20:25

I would have expected that your

20:27

transition from sport and your

20:29

general, like, athletic journey was

20:32

very I mean, there

20:34

it seemed like you won all

20:36

the time, and it didn't really like,

20:38

it's easy for us on the outside to

20:40

look on your resume. and just

20:42

go through all the accolades and the titles and the championships

20:44

and the NCAA titles and four time

20:46

All American and, you know, MVP

20:49

and all of those things. So so

20:51

fascinating to sit here with you. And

20:54

the things that we are talking about,

20:57

you are bringing up the losses. that

21:00

that moved you and have changed you.

21:02

And it sounds like you were, you know,

21:04

and also even when we were doing the rapid fire, you

21:06

mentioned, like, the best moments are connected with

21:08

the worst moments because the best from the worst

21:11

moments. But it's just really it's

21:13

fascinating. Howard Bauchner: Yeah, I

21:15

think

21:15

I think that

21:18

the fierce competitors and not everyone's this

21:20

way. The fierce competitors are

21:23

driven by fear and

21:26

ah and by the threat of loss

21:28

and the pain that they've that

21:30

they've experienced from that loss because they're such

21:33

fierce competitors. And it's and

21:35

it really sucks to say it's it's almost

21:37

a toxic relationship that you have with sports.

21:41

and I tried to I spent a lot of time in

21:43

sports psychology, like, learning how to shift

21:45

that because I was as ferocious of a

21:48

competitor and I could comp I

21:50

just, like, confidently and also humbly, but also

21:52

know the other side of that style

21:54

of competitor is, you know,

21:57

you you you're not well

21:59

liked. And I think

22:01

the fiercest competitor of all time is

22:03

Michael Jordan and I had mentioned that he was kind of

22:05

my sports title growing up. So I I

22:08

really studied his his behaviors and

22:10

not his wins, but,

22:12

like, how he handled himself and

22:15

he was fucking cutthroat.

22:18

And and so I've kind of seen saw

22:20

that as, like, the variable

22:23

that even the great a lot of great

22:25

athletes didn't have, and so that's kinda

22:27

where I was. And but but it

22:29

reaches a point where it just causes

22:31

it's just fraught with anomalies

22:33

and pain and sleepless nights, and even

22:35

when you win your pissed. So

22:38

that was kind of my

22:41

my mindset all the way up until

22:43

I was twenty eight, and then I started trying

22:45

to

22:45

shift it into appreciating wins

22:48

more. But I've learned

22:50

that that was just sort of my recipe that

22:52

worked. I had a coach at one point

22:54

seven offensive player to coach come in. He

22:56

was a newer coach and he was like,

22:58

man, like, you think you should be, like, more

23:00

calm before games and, like, you're a

23:02

skill player and you need to,

23:04

like, have a sense of, you

23:07

know,

23:07

maybe, like, presence or or,

23:10

like, you know, slow the play down.

23:12

And as I get I would get ready, like, I'm

23:14

fucking Ray Lewis. And

23:18

and then I was I thought a

23:20

lot about it. I was, like, yeah, maybe he's right. I just reality

23:22

was His positioning

23:24

made sense, but didn't work for me. And

23:26

and I was always super intense.

23:28

And so there were a

23:30

couple of seasons in my early thirties

23:33

where I tried to balance the

23:35

two and appreciate a game and

23:37

be more know, president

23:39

accepting of the moments good and bad, and

23:41

it just wasn't as wasn't

23:43

myself.

23:43

And so my final season, I flipped

23:45

that switch back on. I'm just you

23:47

know, bearing down and and

23:48

I had one of my

23:50

better seasons again to to finish my career.

23:52

So It's it's all to

23:54

say that, you know, it's

23:57

It's, again, one of life's paradoxes

24:00

in

24:01

that in the pain, fears

24:04

can sometimes be the best motivator, but

24:06

also a kind of an unhealthy one over

24:08

the long term. So trying to figure out where

24:10

your balance is. And but

24:12

I loved yeah. I loved like thriving in those

24:14

nerves, even notice now when I go work out in the

24:16

gym, like, it's just not quite the same.

24:19

Because of course, there's no one on

24:21

the other side of it. imaginarily

24:23

that I'm thinking about. So

24:27

anyway. Yeah. I mean,

24:28

I think that you are certainly not

24:31

alone. I think the one of the biggest struggles

24:33

for athletes

24:33

is losing that sense of purpose

24:35

and structure. So then you go into training. You've

24:37

been training your whole life. with

24:40

a a goal in mind because there's a match

24:42

or a game coming up. And then now all of a sudden,

24:44

you're like, what am I really doing? And how

24:46

is my how's my strength and

24:48

conditioning program going to fit

24:50

who I am today? because it's not like I'm really

24:52

and there's no game or match coming

24:55

up. So when you

24:57

talk about pain, what

25:01

is your relationship today

25:03

with

25:05

with

25:05

pain, whether whether it's physical or emotional? Well,

25:08

I'm still in a

25:08

lot of pain from the surgery

25:11

that I had. It was it was pretty major

25:13

I had cartilage reconstruction.

25:15

And so that had built been

25:17

building up over time. I knew once I retired, then

25:19

I would have that that major surgery.

25:22

and it's like a fourteen month recovery. So there's

25:24

there's actual physical pain that I

25:26

have on a day to day that

25:29

I'm not unaccustomed to.

25:31

I've had a lot of surgeries over

25:33

my career. And

25:36

then I would say my, you know, my

25:38

relationship with pain

25:41

just like

25:43

metaphysically and and

25:47

from a I mean, I mean, mainly

25:49

from a mental standpoint is I have I have a

25:51

I have a really good relationship with it. I

25:53

I'm I'm driven from it. And

25:57

And I'm I I kind of

25:59

look at it through

26:01

a

26:01

lens that is

26:04

unique given my experience

26:06

as a pro athlete and that most

26:09

of our

26:11

most of

26:12

our goals that we set for

26:15

ourselves are some

26:17

of the

26:17

most highly unlikely to achieve, you

26:19

know, get the becoming

26:22

the best at what you do is

26:25

incredibly unlikely. Even,

26:27

you know, dialing that back

26:29

to being a top recruit in the country as a

26:31

high school to being in first team all American

26:33

in college, to then wanting to be a multiple

26:35

time first team all American in part of the year. It's

26:37

just unlikely. Mhmm.

26:40

But in sport because there's, like, a linear

26:42

growth curve. And so the more you put in,

26:44

the more likely you can achieve, if

26:46

you have that kind of

26:48

twisted mindset where I'm just gonna fucking go

26:51

do it. Then and

26:53

then you're able to achieve it. Like, I

26:55

mean, it's led to what I would

26:57

surmise says, and my brother's a an athlete too

27:00

and he's my co founders. I mentioned to

27:02

y'all. I was surprised to, like, you

27:04

know,

27:04

even having

27:05

to go at building the PLL. Most people would

27:07

like to continue a break. And

27:09

so there's there's a level of

27:12

of

27:12

the

27:13

the you know,

27:15

acceptance and understanding

27:18

of the pain ahead to accomplish something

27:20

that's unique than his low odds

27:22

of likelihood of conversion. that

27:25

I I thrive in. So that

27:27

would be the kind

27:29

of the metaphysical approach and and experience

27:31

I have with pain. Yeah.

27:33

Thank you for for answering that. I I guess the the

27:35

reason why I asked that is because I think the transition that

27:37

you're going through right now and the

27:39

shift in roles

27:41

I would imagine brings up not

27:43

only just a level of adjustment, but

27:47

for the general population of

27:49

athletes, it brings up a lot of discomfort. you

27:51

know, to to not be an athlete anymore. And

27:53

then now you're the cofounder and

27:55

having to run the PLL full

27:57

time. as opposed to doing that

27:59

and also being

27:59

an athlete, which as you talked

28:02

about, maybe it was, in some ways, it

28:04

was easier to balance maybe

28:06

because you could kind of step on the field and have that distraction.

28:08

So, you know, how how

28:10

did that experience in your relationship

28:12

with pain and what you learned from

28:15

that? how is that helping you now as you're

28:17

during your post retirement career?

28:21

I think

28:24

I would say that,

28:25

you

28:27

know,

28:27

you know

28:28

the the the learnings from

28:30

the workplace

28:33

are

28:33

actually really

28:35

transferrable to

28:37

becoming a better

28:37

athlete on the field. And I was I

28:40

was lucky to have that

28:43

intermix of of learnings while I was still

28:45

playing. You know, I I was building the

28:47

league and and playing and figuring out

28:50

a lot of, like, inner workplace dynamics

28:53

and relationship building

28:54

and but

28:56

appropriate management around, like, career

28:58

trajectory and life trajectory and things like

29:00

that that we have to have, I

29:03

think, a better and

29:04

more empathetic approach in

29:06

the workplace than you do in

29:08

the locker room. And

29:12

and so, you know, I've I've I've I've

29:14

I've said this before, but I I really

29:16

think that you

29:18

know, student athletes get great balance from

29:21

what they're learning in the classroom and what they

29:23

can apply to the field. And

29:26

I think athletes that are now in this

29:28

modern age, more entrepreneurial and getting exposure

29:30

as investors or venture

29:32

partners to deals can

29:34

again, take some of those inner workings and dynamics

29:37

and apply them to what they

29:39

do as athletes. I think

29:41

we see it even with Tom Brady. He he

29:43

he seems to be at this

29:45

stage of his career, very,

29:47

very, very regimented, and

29:49

he understands the value of

29:51

that. I mean, in business, we create OKRs.

29:54

which are, like, your your

29:56

quarterly goals and and,

29:59

you know, it stands for objectives and

30:01

key results, but it's how we measure

30:03

the success of respective

30:05

busy business units and requires a

30:07

lot of planning. And and

30:09

then you can put together workflows and project manage

30:12

better to those okay hours, and it's just

30:14

a way to to gauge success

30:16

and also reward success and

30:18

growth. And

30:20

so in sports, good coaches

30:22

and managers, essentially, are putting together

30:24

OKRs if they if they have good

30:27

game day plans. And in across what

30:29

that would be is like, okay. We wanna clear the

30:31

ball ninety five percent. We want

30:33

to have a sixty

30:35

percent save percentage. We wanna win

30:37

sixty five percent of draws. our

30:39

power play wants to sit at forty

30:41

percent. And during the week, you're working to

30:43

achieve those. And after the game, you're seeing, okay, do

30:45

we hit these OKRs? then that

30:47

can, like, boil down to how you're

30:49

performing and training as an athlete, week

30:51

to week, quarter over quarter, year over

30:54

year. So I think Yeah.

30:57

It took your question in a different direction,

30:59

but

30:59

but I

31:00

but I would say that, you know, there's

31:02

there's was we talked about there's kind of

31:04

pain and resilience and and

31:07

the psychology of of

31:09

transition and and

31:11

even, like, corollaries between an

31:13

athlete and a business person.

31:15

And then there's the, like, the data

31:18

that we can learn from that

31:21

we can also apply in in either

31:23

industry? It

31:24

sounds like your your process you've

31:27

you've figured out a process. or

31:29

just how to deal how

31:31

just to navigate various

31:35

challenges or try to strive

31:37

and achieve a so,

31:39

you know, I'm

31:42

curious about what you have found

31:45

out about the

31:47

non lacrosse

31:49

athlete

31:50

or person that you are. Like, who

31:53

is Paul beyond lacrosse? And also,

31:55

what what are you good at? because I

31:57

I remember listening to your

31:59

conversation

31:59

with Greg Olson on his

32:02

youth, Inc. podcast, and it was it was

32:04

such a great conversation. I

32:06

wanna offer credit where credit is

32:08

due. But you mentioned just

32:10

the the

32:12

interesting point about you just had

32:14

mentioned, I'm gonna paraphrase here, like, find

32:16

the find what you're good at

32:18

or find what you're best at because

32:21

If you can become really good at

32:24

what you're good at,

32:25

it becomes

32:26

your passion. And I never

32:28

heard anyone really describe that before.

32:31

So I'm curious about what what you've

32:33

found that you're good at

32:35

in this position today, maybe as

32:37

a president, co founder,

32:39

entrepreneur, outside of the cross? Well,

32:41

I would start

32:41

by saying that there there's

32:44

all there's more that I'm that I'm unqualified

32:46

and not good at than than

32:49

good. And it's important. And I

32:51

think that a lot of data would suggest

32:53

that having a cofounder and started a business if

32:55

you're out there starting businesses is

32:58

on a multiple far

33:00

greater and and more likely to

33:02

success than than being a sole

33:04

founder. And Mike, my brother, who's

33:06

our CEO of the PLL, is is

33:08

kind of a serial entrepreneur. Kinda

33:10

at a high level is

33:12

incredible manager and operator, which

33:14

enables me to to focus on, you know, the public

33:16

facing side of the business, which is media marketing

33:19

attention and kind

33:21

of conversion related to such.

33:24

So I would say

33:26

that I I am

33:29

i am I think I'm

33:32

uniquely talented at

33:34

the

33:37

at

33:37

storytelling. and

33:39

and and,

33:41

you know, how that has come

33:44

to life for

33:46

me as as an athlete. And

33:48

then how that, you

33:50

know, it makes its way into what we

33:52

do with the P0L

33:55

in a lot of ways, it's, like, tied to the

33:58

documentary that we're

33:59

releasing called Fade of Explorer and

34:03

ESPN films.

34:05

is the distributor, and we had

34:07

gotten into TriBeCa earlier this summer, and

34:09

and it you know,

34:11

in in

34:12

a in

34:13

a unique way. It's a story unto itself, but

34:15

it also, you know, will describe

34:18

those differences in a lot of

34:20

detail behind the scenes between Mike and myself and

34:22

the challenges that you and I are talking

34:24

about today. And so

34:26

it's I think it's a it's a it's

34:29

probably, like, the the If I were

34:31

to give an I when question, like, given an example

34:33

of a good story is is this

34:35

film that's coming out. But,

34:39

yeah, how take complex narrative and

34:41

just fill it down to

34:43

o to a version

34:45

or versions that

34:48

are carefully articulated to

34:51

subset of demographics. And

34:53

there's never been more

34:56

opportunity to do that in unique ways with the evolution of the

34:58

internet and social media and different

35:00

forms of media, including streaming

35:04

now. And that's that's the type of stuff that excites

35:06

me, especially around a sport where you

35:08

have stakeholders like the

35:11

game itself to your

35:14

fans, to your coaches and GMs, to your players,

35:16

to the teams, to the

35:18

moments throughout the season, to the

35:20

history of the sport, which is Native Americans.

35:23

So there's there are endless opportunities

35:26

to talk about what

35:28

I have a passion for.

35:31

which is sport, which is business, which

35:33

is community, and

35:36

and be able to articulate

35:38

that to others who also share

35:41

in that passion.

35:42

Mhmm. Mhmm. Have you noticed, by

35:44

the way, congrats on the documentary and

35:46

ESPN films and also the new

35:50

partnership also with ESPN and the PLL.

35:52

So, you know, there's certainly a lot of things

35:54

going on for you there, so congrats on

35:56

that. Thanks.

35:58

When you talk about the storytelling

35:59

aspect, have you noticed

36:01

when you look back at your

36:03

career, did that traits

36:06

and that skill? Could you

36:07

find that in your

36:10

game? Because I think

36:10

I asked that because I think the one

36:12

question I've that's recently come to

36:15

mind for me is, are there similarities between who people are as athletes

36:17

and who they become afterwards?

36:19

Is there a

36:22

similarity?

36:23

Yeah. I think so.

36:24

I I mean, I used to think about my

36:27

repetitions against

36:29

the wall as you

36:32

know, in the wall is is essentially, like, our version of practice on

36:34

the cross as you get outside with your sticking ball

36:37

and you find a brick wall and you have passes

36:39

against it and you work on

36:42

your skill. I used to think of

36:44

that

36:44

more around kind of process

36:46

and math, and

36:47

then I've learned that it was there

36:49

was also art to it. and

36:52

creativity, and being able

36:54

to create your own practice

36:56

routine, but also explore different

36:58

ways of of playing. I

37:01

had a chance to sit down with Kyrie

37:03

Irving recently, and and he was kind

37:05

of describing his style of play

37:07

as an artist.

37:09

But to get to that, you have to also have the

37:12

fundamentals. Right? To be able

37:14

to slash through the lane like Kyrie

37:16

does with both hands, you can't do

37:18

that and distinctively

37:20

without having the principles mastered.

37:24

So I think the best

37:26

athletes or the best business people in the

37:28

world have a great

37:30

combination of of math and

37:32

science with with art and

37:36

creativity. And And the

37:38

process is your math, and and then

37:40

the the art is your

37:42

ability to innovate and

37:44

creatively solve critical challenges in

37:47

ways that textbooks don't teach

37:49

us, but a wide

37:51

set of of knowledge

37:53

across industries can. So

37:55

that that

37:56

create that

37:59

creativity, would

37:59

you call

38:01

yourself highly creative? Is

38:02

that or I mean, I

38:05

think, look, if

38:05

if I call myself highly creative one day, I

38:07

I feel incredibly uncreated the

38:10

next. So

38:12

It's I I think I strive to

38:14

be a creative person. Mhmm. And

38:16

there's as we talk about other

38:18

things, just work that goes into it.

38:22

Mhmm.

38:22

Well, I asked that because I was wondering, I was gonna my next

38:24

question on what's gonna be, well, if

38:26

you do identify yourself or at least

38:28

the want to be creative and like

38:32

the idea you could be creative. What is your what

38:34

is going to be your next

38:36

masterpiece in this next

38:38

chapter of your life? Well,

38:40

I

38:41

well i think think getting right

38:42

into the P0L is my focus

38:45

over the next five, seven

38:47

years. We have

38:50

so much We have so much ground to cover, and we have

38:52

really high ambitions

38:54

for where we can take the league in our teams

38:56

and and grow the profile of the game

38:58

internationally. and and, of course,

39:00

domestically. And there are so

39:02

many different avenues of chipping

39:04

away at that and mentioned our

39:06

film, but then there's follow on

39:09

unscripted concepts that we have that we're

39:11

working on to obviously improving the live game,

39:13

the broadcast there, the event experience

39:16

for our fans. how we're

39:18

kind of omnichannel across the calendar

39:22

and and and really how we're

39:24

inspiring ourselves and inspiring

39:26

our audience. that is a a

39:28

plateful and it happens to intersect around a lot

39:30

of the things that I love. So I

39:33

feel really grateful for that. Mhmm.

39:34

So that that's your vision

39:36

moving forward and then taking

39:38

the vision and looking reflecting back

39:41

a little bit. I remember earlier

39:43

in the interview you mentioned that the hardest part was probably the first eight months

39:45

after retiring. So around that

39:50

eight month

39:51

juncture, how

39:53

did

39:53

you find closure,

39:56

and how did you say goodbye to

40:00

the cross? I

40:01

suppose, like, the

40:02

the the

40:04

goal the key for me is

40:06

is

40:08

a lot of things is is not living in the binary around,

40:11

like, turning the page and

40:13

finding closure. I

40:16

think that

40:16

we can read up on relationships. And

40:18

most actually don't get a sense of

40:21

closure, but most

40:23

relationship

40:25

therapist called LCFTs,

40:27

they will suggest

40:30

that closure

40:32

is just this, like, thing out there that

40:34

society tells

40:35

us would be great to have,

40:38

but what actually is

40:40

it in way of value to

40:42

growth? And I think

40:44

it's more about creating space

40:48

and understanding and compassion

40:50

for yourself and your experience as

40:52

you go through this. And also,

40:56

you know, not

40:57

having to

40:59

oblige to historical

41:02

standards, especially in sport. I mean,

41:04

sports really the only industry

41:06

with a ask for a

41:08

definitive answer around retiring. Right? Like, in business,

41:10

at least when Mike

41:13

and I finish with the

41:15

PLL will probably take a lot of time off and then go start a new

41:17

business and go invest in

41:19

other companies and

41:22

you

41:22

look at the the arts and entertainment field, musicians, and actors. Like,

41:24

they take a lot of time off in between

41:26

projects and some of them gears, and then they're

41:29

gonna go act again and know,

41:31

when when's Daniel Day Lewis doing his next film? He's

41:34

amazing. And we're not, like, are you

41:36

retired? And so all the

41:38

bullshit in sports and I

41:40

think in in life in a lot of ways, we'll

41:42

try to push us in a direction of,

41:44

like, making a decision or

41:46

or coming up with, you know,

41:48

an out come or or an And the truth

41:50

hard is hard is that there there

41:52

really isn't

41:54

very many and life,

41:57

like, definitive outcomes that make us feel all of a sudden

41:59

comfortable and and okay with

42:01

moving on. Now all that

42:03

said, I I'm still in

42:05

lacrosse. So I'm uniquely positioned

42:08

where I know that a lot a lot of other

42:10

athletes are friends of mine that have

42:12

retired or are like, they

42:14

step away from the game entirely, and they go do

42:16

something totally different. And

42:18

that's a different

42:20

type of reconciliation

42:22

than

42:23

in transition. I I'm

42:26

on the field still every weekend. So I'd

42:28

see these guys compete. I used to feel their

42:30

level of competition. It's not

42:32

the same. But but I'm still

42:34

kind of in

42:34

it, and I appreciate that. And and,

42:38

you know, when I

42:39

get to

42:41

kinda feel

42:42

the normality of doing

42:44

all that now?

42:45

Mhmm. Last

42:47

question, what what

42:49

have you learned in

42:51

leaving sport during this transition that

42:53

you think is is a very

42:55

important

42:56

life lesson.

42:59

Well,

43:04

I

43:05

think that we

43:06

that's we

43:09

whether

43:09

we're in sport or any

43:12

field.

43:12

the You

43:14

should try to

43:16

understand and think through the pros and

43:18

cons of it. And

43:21

sport has so

43:24

many advantages from a young

43:26

age to participating

43:28

in it or coaching or, you

43:30

know, being a fan of sport. There's

43:32

the tribalism and community of it. There are the there's a leadership, lessons,

43:36

resilience, work ethic, process,

43:38

artistry, a lot of stuff that

43:40

we've covered. commodity

43:42

and relationship building and stuff.

43:44

And then there's also the the toxic elements of

43:46

it, like the doggy dog, the

43:50

the fear that is kind of, you know,

43:52

stoking the flame, the

43:55

never enough, the kind

43:57

of the tyrannical or

44:00

narcissistic element of having to be the

44:02

best. So all that stuff, you know, when you

44:04

become

44:06

a

44:06

pro, can

44:07

can, I think, lean negative

44:09

to character development. So I

44:12

think, like, you know, there

44:13

i haven't been

44:15

like, being okay with with

44:18

with understanding at least the

44:19

way I approach life is I talk

44:21

about the entire spectrum

44:24

by people,

44:24

and I've learned this in sport the hard way, which is, you

44:26

know, if we talk about losing this game, we're gonna lose.

44:28

Or if we talk about, you know,

44:32

we're gonna get

44:34

fucking killed.

44:35

And and where

44:38

missing

44:38

is like, sorry you feel

44:40

that way. It's a possibility. And if we don't explore

44:42

possibility, what's gonna be our game plan if we

44:44

are down three nothing? because everyone's been down

44:48

three nothing. And so, like, you're actually shorting your likelihood

44:50

to win. And so when I think about

44:52

a decision with our company or a

44:54

decision that I've made as

44:56

an athlete, just explore the spectrum of pros and cons,

44:58

and and you're just gonna be better prepared.

45:00

And and maybe that's the answer. It's a good

45:02

question. It's hard

45:04

to, like, leave the

45:06

podcast with somebody profound,

45:08

but but preparation,

45:10

I

45:10

think, is is what a lot of people

45:12

would

45:12

the kind of point me

45:14

in in doing

45:16

maybe better than than the

45:18

mean as I prepare really, really

45:21

well and I care deeply about my preparation. Howard

45:23

Bauchner: No, thank you for

45:24

taking the time to thoughtfully work

45:26

yourself through that. It's a

45:30

difficult a very open ended question, but I think I took away from

45:32

it. This the spectrum of

45:34

the experience of the pros

45:36

and cons, the highs and lows,

45:39

because I you're right. I think we live in

45:41

a society where it's like, we just want the

45:43

good and we just want that side. But you can't

45:45

have the love without the hate in my opinion. You

45:47

can't have the good without the bad has

45:49

to be the full

45:50

kind of, like, dichotomous experience.

45:53

Yeah. Well, probably Trust me, you'll experience

45:55

that when you watch our film. you'll be

45:57

like, this guy is equally maniacal,

45:59

and he is, like,

46:02

in a contradictory way present,

46:04

but, like, constantly

46:06

tensioned and it and

46:08

it's a difficult it's a really,

46:10

really difficult watch for

46:13

me And I thought that the film was awful and

46:15

and then more people than

46:18

than not thought it was good.

46:20

So I I think that almost

46:22

was good. The vulnerability in it will hopefully map

46:24

out if those of you who are listening to

46:26

this show then decide to

46:28

watch it. Alright. Well, let us

46:30

know where we can watch it and

46:32

when. Yeah. So ESPN

46:34

plus exclusively beginning on August twenty

46:36

ninth, and then it's gonna be on ESPN

46:38

on September fifth teeth and ABC on

46:40

September eighteenth. Howard Bauchner:

46:41

Great. So if you want to see Paul and his

46:44

cleats and just his spandex, I

46:46

guess, that is

46:48

the date. August twenty ninth, everybody is gonna go to ESPN

46:50

plus for one reason or

46:52

another.

46:52

Alright, Bob.

46:54

Well, thank you

46:55

so much, and opening up and

46:57

sharing your story. We wish you the best of luck, and we will all be tuning in not

46:59

only into your podcast, but also the

47:02

PLL and also

47:04

the documentary.

47:04

Awesome. Thank

47:06

you for having me. Really hope you enjoyed today's

47:09

conversation. Just a friendly reminder that you

47:11

could also

47:11

watch the full version of all these episodes

47:14

on YouTube

47:16

just search for our show the next chapter with Prim's Repapapap.

47:18

And also subscribe to

47:20

us,

47:20

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47:22

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47:24

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47:26

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