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1:02

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1:31

next chapter with Primus

1:32

Rippepat is a production of iHeartRadio.

1:35

Hey, everybody. It's prem. Welcome

1:38

to the next chapter presented by Baron Davis

1:40

and Six Studios. This week's guest

1:42

is former Olympic figure skater and

1:45

Stanford University graduate, Rachel

1:48

Flat. As in the elite athlete,

1:50

Rachel was the two thousand eight

1:52

World Junior champion, the

1:55

two thousand ten US national

1:57

champion. And then at the twenty ten

1:59

Vancouver Games, she finished seventh

2:01

overall in ladies figure

2:03

skating. So obviously, a very accomplished

2:07

athlete. And it's fascinating because

2:09

Rachel and I are following very,

2:11

very similar at least when it comes to

2:13

our post athletic careers. So

2:16

she graduated from Stanford University in

2:18

twenty fifteen with a major in biology

2:21

and than a minor in psychology. And

2:23

today, she is a PhD

2:26

clinical psychology student at

2:28

UNC Chapel where she

2:30

is focusing much of her research

2:33

and clinical training, like me,

2:35

on the mental health of athletes,

2:38

but she's specifically

2:39

looking at eating disorders

2:41

and disordered eating behaviors within

2:43

the athlete population.

2:45

Now, heading into this interview,

2:48

I

2:48

was really curious about

2:50

why her transition

2:51

from figure skating had been

2:53

relatively easy Because

2:55

based on the research I had done, including having

2:58

listened to a few other interviews,

3:01

she had talked about how her retirement,

3:03

specifically at the twenty fourteen US

3:06

national figure skating championships,

3:08

was kind of great and

3:10

memorable because she was able

3:12

to walk away on her own terms.

3:14

But, there's

3:16

a but, as you'll

3:18

hear during our conversation,

3:20

my hypothesis or assumption

3:22

about her retirement experiences were

3:25

completely wrong. on

3:28

an emotional and psychological

3:30

level, it was really,

3:33

really difficult for her to lead figure skating.

3:36

and understandably because it's been

3:38

a part of her life since she was four years

3:40

old. And

3:41

I think what's

3:42

really compelling about this commerce station

3:44

is number one, even

3:47

when an athlete

3:48

is able to walk away on their

3:50

own terms with absolutely no

3:52

regrets. The

3:53

transition from sport can

3:55

and will

3:57

most likely be hard for a lot

3:59

of athletes. because

4:01

when your life in every fiber

4:03

of your being is dedicated to this

4:06

one thing and then that thing ends

4:09

it's going to require some level of adjustment.

4:12

And we all know change is

4:14

never easy. And number

4:16

two, the second point I want to highlight from this conversation

4:18

station is,

4:20

we can't make assumptions about people's

4:22

experiences if we don't ask

4:24

them directly.

4:26

Even though Rachel had talked about retiring

4:28

from figure skating in a more kind

4:31

of positive way in other interviews

4:33

and on other shows, context

4:36

is really important. So depending

4:38

on the conversation and topic and depending

4:41

on the environment or tone and also

4:43

depending on the questions and how they were

4:45

asked, All of that might

4:47

lend

4:47

a completely different answer.

4:50

So

4:50

it's really important that we provide

4:53

the right setting and also ask

4:56

the right questions. We really want

4:58

to know the truth about something or someone,

5:00

including an athlete's retirement

5:03

experience. Really

5:05

hope you enjoyed this conversation. So

5:07

sit back, relax, and without

5:09

further ado, here's Rachel White.

5:34

Well, Rachel, it's so great to have you on the show.

5:36

You and I have got opportunity to work with

5:39

on one another.

5:39

You know, we're co writing a

5:42

chapter on athletes and eating disorders

5:44

in disordered eating behaviors, which

5:46

is we're still in the process of it, but

5:48

how are

5:49

you doing? I am

5:51

doing really well. A little tired. The

5:53

grass school fatigue is

5:54

very real right now, but but

5:57

otherwise doing really well. You're

5:59

a couple

5:59

years ahead of me, so you're

6:02

much closer to the light at the end

6:04

of the tunnel. So you're almost there.

6:06

You're almost there. Yeah. Well,

6:09

I'm so excited to talk about you

6:11

and and hit on so many different topics,

6:13

but really, I I wanted to focus

6:16

on your transition from figure

6:18

skating. So, you know, I was kinda listening to

6:20

a couple of interviews. You've done a lot of interviews,

6:22

but couple of them that

6:24

I listened to, you mentioned that

6:26

leaving sport for you was actually

6:29

I don't wanna put worsen your mouth, but it seemed like it

6:31

was relatively easy after the twenty fourteen

6:33

nationals. But

6:35

what what was your transition like? And and

6:38

was it

6:38

easy for you?

6:40

Yeah. I think it started

6:41

easy. Alright.

6:44

Yeah. It it was really interesting

6:47

because a junior in college at that point

6:49

in time and really

6:51

had a lot of other things on my plate. I

6:53

was actually premed at that point and

6:57

really was interested in just diving

6:59

into, like, the collegiate

7:02

environment and I was a

7:04

junior class president and had

7:06

a ton of other stuff on my plate at that

7:08

point. So it felt

7:10

like an easy and natural kind of slide

7:12

into all these other things

7:14

that I had put on my plate just to kinda keep

7:16

me busy. But once I

7:18

graduated the following year, it

7:21

really hit me that I hadn't

7:23

processed my retirement at

7:25

all

7:26

and also had kind of stuck with

7:29

the the status quo in pursuing

7:31

this premed plan that

7:33

I had kind of set up since my freshman

7:35

year without really giving myself, like, the

7:37

opportunity to question that or

7:39

consider if there were alternative career

7:41

paths that I wanted to pursue that maybe fit

7:43

my interests a little bit better. So all

7:45

of that kind of came crashing down right

7:49

after I graduated. And it

7:51

was it was a difficult year.

7:54

just trying to reevaluate what I really

7:56

wanted to do and my identity as

7:59

I was no longer

7:59

a competitive athlete and

8:01

know that that's something a lot of athletes

8:04

experience when

8:06

when you're trying to figure out your life, poke sport,

8:08

especially when it's been something that has kind

8:10

of tethered and grounded your identity

8:13

and who you are as a person. So it

8:15

was it

8:15

was rough after that initial

8:17

easy transition. that

8:19

is so interesting and I'm so thank you for sharing

8:22

that. I'm so glad I I was more specific

8:24

about my question and it's that's hilarious

8:26

that I could listen to something and

8:29

and make an assumption

8:30

or or

8:31

make a conclusion about what you said because,

8:34

I guess, there is a difference because at in

8:36

that particular interview, I think

8:38

you were talking with

8:40

Selena Edmunds on her believe podcast.

8:44

And you had mentioned that

8:46

you were able to walk away with

8:49

essentially kind of no regrets and you

8:51

you had a sense of control over

8:54

over how your career ended and yet

8:57

at the same time, it

9:00

was still hard.

9:01

Mhmm. Yeah. I think you

9:04

know, if you I make this joke, but if you

9:06

look at my resume on

9:08

paper, you know, it's like, okay. It would make

9:10

sense that or

9:12

would seem as though my

9:14

transition out of sport was great. But

9:17

and I and I really did get to in my

9:19

career, on my own terms, which I am so

9:21

thankful for. I had a number of injuries

9:24

for the last four years of my skating

9:26

career and obviously balancing skating

9:28

with premed track at

9:31

at, you know, in early college was

9:33

was not easy. He doesn't say police, but

9:36

but it was still really valuable

9:38

in getting to work with the coaching team that

9:40

I adored and really supported me as a

9:42

human first and as an athlete second.

9:45

So I was finally able to and

9:48

my career without being injured with

9:50

a great team at my side, feeling

9:52

really supported. And for that, I will

9:54

always be like extremely

9:56

grateful because it just helped

9:58

me feel like I could walk away

9:59

from skating and my competitive

10:02

career feeling really at peace.

10:05

But, yeah, it's just it's so

10:07

interesting because, you know, it's like I had all this

10:09

stuff that I thought I would wanted

10:11

to do I had all these things lined up for

10:13

me right after I graduated and right after

10:15

I retired with bunch of shows. And,

10:18

yeah, and I just really tried to keep myself busy.

10:21

And that point didn't necessarily realize,

10:23

like, the importance of dealing with kind

10:26

of

10:26

the emotional fallout of of

10:28

retirement.

10:30

So what was that emotional experience for

10:32

you? What was the most difficult part about it?

10:35

There

10:38

are a lot of things that were difficult. I mean,

10:40

part of it, I think the one

10:42

of the most important things to

10:45

that experience for me was understanding

10:48

that I could kind

10:50

of redefine success in my

10:52

life.

10:54

What I was so worried about was this

10:56

feeling of having to start over from scratch.

11:00

And, you know, I didn't necessarily realize

11:02

at that point that I,

11:04

you know, I had all these incredible skills

11:06

from skating and from being in sport and,

11:08

you know, that transferred to real

11:10

life. But I just had

11:13

a very narrow idea

11:15

of how those how those skills kind

11:17

of fit into sport. And

11:20

so I was really worried about you know,

11:22

people kind of this external perception

11:24

of of how

11:26

I would move beyond skating,

11:28

and I felt this pressure to kind of immediately

11:30

jump into the next career and be really successful.

11:34

And so the idea yeah.

11:36

Yeah. So the idea of like starting over

11:38

was terrifying. And

11:42

then kind of dealing with this secondary,

11:44

like,

11:44

oh, crap. I don't really wanna go to medical

11:46

school. Now what? Well,

11:49

I yeah. Those those two things kind

11:51

of as A12 punch really

11:53

just they're me

11:54

for a loop. And so I felt

11:56

really depressed. I felt this loss of identity.

11:59

I was really, you know, I was concerned with what

12:01

was coming next. So

12:03

there's lot of worrying that was happening.

12:06

So, yeah, just I kinda sat with that

12:09

for the better part of the year and

12:11

them

12:12

was not really at a point where

12:15

I felt open enough to kind of share that

12:17

with even my closest

12:19

inner circle. and my boyfriend

12:21

at the time he's done my husband and I just you know,

12:23

I was like, I know I gotta keep this front

12:25

up. I gotta show everyone that I'm doing

12:27

great. And even with him, there

12:29

were times where I just finally, like, had

12:31

to kind of let those walls down. And,

12:34

yeah, it just was really scary to do that

12:36

and be so vulnerable when in an

12:38

athletic setting. You're so you're hot

12:40

to not really show that and demonstrate that.

12:43

Obviously, things are starting to change there, but

12:45

kind of when I was going through sport, that was the

12:47

overarching sentiment was to not

12:50

show your vulnerability. So, yeah,

12:52

so it was a lot of different things. It was complex.

12:54

was yeah,

12:56

just difficult to kind of navigate and feel

12:58

really isolated in working

13:01

through that. And, yeah,

13:03

fortunately had a lot of great people

13:05

who I

13:05

finally started opening up to

13:08

both athletes and non athletes and

13:10

just kind of took the the advice

13:13

and the

13:13

support that was really helpful over

13:15

that period and was

13:18

finally able to kinda start moving through that.

13:20

So, yeah, it was it was a rough go

13:23

over a little bit there, but finally made

13:25

it out the other side. I didn't feel like I'm doing really

13:27

well now. Girl, I hear you.

13:29

I mean, identity check, transition

13:31

check, emotions check. not,

13:34

you know, coming from a sport culture where

13:36

we're taught in condition to

13:39

push them aside and really compartmentalize.

13:41

check. And then being learning how to be vulnerable.

13:44

Like, I think that's, like, you you know,

13:46

the comvert oh, that topic comes

13:48

up so much in in my interviews about, like,

13:51

what skills do we develop

13:53

in sport that really is

13:56

important within that context and

13:58

to achieving a certain amount of performance. And

13:59

then how do we have to, like, retrain ourselves

14:02

when it comes to, like, our personal lives, especially, like,

14:04

intrapersonally? I think I'm just,

14:06

like, blown away at the

14:09

information

14:10

that,

14:11

you know, looking at learning a little bit more about

14:14

your background, reading what's on paper,

14:16

which obvious is not only representative of how,

14:18

you know, who the person is. Mhmm. But then

14:20

hearing some of these interviews. And I was,

14:22

like, really like, my hypothesis was totally

14:25

wrong. Like, I've really thought

14:28

that, you know, because in some of these other

14:30

interviews and I also wanna give credit where credit

14:32

is due, I I listen to Molinas, interview

14:35

with you. I also listened to another interview

14:37

with the pediatric sports medicine podcast.

14:39

Mhmm. Both great interviews

14:41

and, you know, you also talked about

14:44

your parents and how they really, you know,

14:46

focused on developing you as a person.

14:49

Mhmm. And yet I'm, like, still shocked

14:51

that you

14:53

had a difficult time because in those interviews

14:55

and those conversations, it did come off

14:57

as though the transition

15:00

while hard you were able to,

15:03

like, really navigate. So I guess the next

15:05

question is is that Is

15:07

it how the person asks? Or is it

15:09

that we really need to be asking the

15:12

the the right questions in in terms of or

15:15

how different questions lead to different

15:17

answers. Mhmm.

15:18

If that makes sense. Yeah.

15:20

I think so to some extent. Right? Like,

15:22

The way in which we're talking about transition out

15:24

of sport is different in different

15:27

context. One

15:29

of the things that I think when

15:32

we're talking about transition out of sport,

15:34

it can feel hard

15:37

to kind of present

15:39

that you know, in the

15:41

right setting. It's like, you know, when we

15:43

when we've talked about this kind of offline,

15:45

you know, there's certainly this mutual understanding

15:48

of, like, what that experiences really like.

15:50

and

15:51

And when you're talking about

15:54

it publicly, when you're talking about it

15:55

personally, Like, sometimes there's

15:57

just different frames that can be helpful

16:00

for different folks. So, you know,

16:02

certainly with, you know, with talking with the

16:04

Paulina, you know, there's lot of

16:06

information around, like, what that experience

16:08

was, like, from truly, like, skating

16:10

lens, and then how that kind of translates

16:13

to, like, what I'm doing currently

16:15

as a clinical site PhD student who's

16:17

done eating disorder. So,

16:20

you know, it's

16:21

definitely a matter of timing.

16:23

It's a matter of the types of questions that are

16:26

asked. And it's matter of, like, how

16:28

people wanna frame this subject. You know, think

16:30

sometimes there's this pressure to

16:33

present

16:34

that, again, like, everything was just

16:36

fine in Danny when you were tired,

16:39

you know. Mhmm. And I

16:41

you know, as I have

16:44

gone deeper into, like,

16:47

practicing with clients and learning

16:50

certain, you know, psychology treatment models.

16:52

It's like I also recognize,

16:54

like, the power of vulnerability now

16:56

in these kinds of interviews. And

16:58

you know, while

17:00

I want to support

17:03

my clients the best way possible, you

17:06

know, through those,

17:06

like, evidence based frameworks At the same

17:08

time, like, I also have to do my

17:11

own digging to understand,

17:12

like, my vulnerabilities, my biases,

17:14

whether that from the export context

17:16

of multicultural

17:17

backgrounds. Like, you

17:19

know, it's just there's a lot of different

17:21

avenues that

17:23

this work kind of allows

17:25

you to do. And and

17:28

so, yeah, I think there's a lot of different complexities

17:30

and nuances to this conversation that

17:33

the more I kind of distance

17:35

myself from my own retirement, the more I can look

17:37

back and reflect and understand, like, yeah,

17:39

I was actually really struggling, and I have

17:41

to kind of own up to that. Yeah.

17:45

I mean, because you're

17:46

you're much

17:48

younger than I am, but you

17:51

I think around your time

17:53

was when I started I actually

17:55

just started therapy. And so

17:57

it seems like in terms of, like, processing

17:59

your retirement,

18:00

you're actually further along in the timeline

18:03

than I am because I

18:05

was really

18:06

I

18:07

just I was tired. I was

18:09

I knew what I was doing wasn't right,

18:12

and I didn't realize that so much of it

18:14

was connected to just

18:17

having to leave sport and leave that identity

18:19

and redefine yourself and it is is really,

18:21

like, starting over. I mean -- Mhmm. --

18:23

sure, like, our skills will will

18:26

transfer. Mhmm. But, I mean, no

18:28

matter what we do, we're kind of we

18:30

are. We're starting from scratch, really, at least

18:32

from a skill development perspective. You know,

18:34

whether it's medicine, whether it's in

18:36

psychology, where somebody else even go into

18:38

investment banking, you gotta start

18:41

somewhere, and I think that is, that's

18:43

an overwhelming thing because maybe

18:46

you have reached such a high level.

18:49

You started figure skating a what? Like four?

18:51

Yeah. Yep. That's all I knew.

18:53

So that

18:54

Yeah. Yeah. So

18:56

what what period when you reflect

18:58

back on your experience? I know you mentioned that

19:00

year after graduating. Mhmm. Do

19:03

you remember a specific moment that was,

19:05

like,

19:05

man, this is this

19:07

is brutal. Like, I don't know what to do. I don't know

19:09

what to do next.

19:10

Yeah. There there's

19:13

one snapshot in killer that I well,

19:15

probably too, snapshots

19:17

that I have kind of

19:19

logged in my brain. I was like, those were definitely

19:21

moments where I was

19:24

really having a hard time. One

19:26

was I was sitting with Eric,

19:29

my my no husband, and we were just kinda

19:31

sitting

19:31

on a couch at at

19:34

my apartment, and I

19:36

was coming to terms of the fact that

19:38

I didn't want to follow through with applying

19:40

to medical school. And

19:45

even though that was the context of the conversation,

19:48

what was really happening was I

19:51

was struggling with kind of this identity piece.

19:53

Like,

19:54

what do I do now? You know,

19:56

like, who am I without? this,

19:59

you know, kind of prescribed

19:59

academic path and

20:02

without this, like, sport

20:04

background that has just when I

20:06

was going through high school, when I was going through college, like, everyone

20:08

was like, oh, that's the Olympic ice skier. And

20:11

and so that was how I even knew myself

20:14

in many ways. And I just

20:16

remember sitting there just

20:18

balling with him. And, you

20:20

know, I didn't necessarily share at that point

20:22

with him that I that

20:25

was kind of the real piece

20:27

of that conversation,

20:29

but it was kind of couched in this

20:31

medical school conversation.

20:33

and probably

20:35

didn't have the language -- Yeah. -- how

20:37

to articulate that. I certainly didn't.

20:40

And I don't think I even had the insight

20:43

yet at that point, like, I just knew

20:45

that yeah. Like you said, something was just

20:47

off and I felt broken and I

20:49

remember talking about this in a in another

20:51

view and also in another interview and also

20:53

with my PhD adviser. We're

20:56

talking about how sometimes sport

20:58

can feel like a really terrible

21:00

kind of divorce or even like

21:02

a death of like part of yourself, especially

21:04

if it's something that you have you

21:07

know, it's just, like, ingrained in every fiber

21:09

you're being. It's just who you are. And

21:12

and so that felt like one

21:14

of those moments where I really came to terms

21:17

with that. And then there was

21:19

a second point where

21:21

I was going in to go coach one morning

21:23

and this was kind of in that same, like,

21:25

year time span. I was

21:27

going in to go coach before I was

21:29

starting to work at a research lab. And

21:32

I remember pulling into the parking lot,

21:34

and it was, you know, like, five thirty, six o'clock

21:36

in the morning, completely dark outside. I

21:38

was sitting in my car and I just couldn't get out

21:40

of my car. I was like, I can't go

21:43

into the rank this morning. And,

21:45

you know, I was really upset the mom

21:47

of the the skater was supposed to go

21:50

coach, like, pulled in next to me after

21:52

coming in and with some Star Wars copy.

21:54

And she just saw me sitting there, and she was

21:56

like, you need to go home. You

21:58

need to go home and you need

21:59

to just take the day off and, like,

22:02

take care of yourself, you know. And it

22:04

was one of those, like,

22:06

just

22:07

really empathetic and compassionate moments where I

22:09

was like, thank you so much. Like, I didn't even need tell

22:11

you what was happening. You just and you're

22:13

like, you you need to,

22:16

like, take some,

22:16

you know, kinda TLC time

22:19

to yourself. And I was so

22:20

so thankful for her

22:22

in that moment because it just was like, okay.

22:25

If someone sees me even though they don't

22:27

necessarily

22:27

know what's going on, they're seeing me in their under like,

22:29

their understanding that it really hurt and

22:31

struggling right now. So, yeah, those are the

22:33

two kind of snapchats boys come to my mind

22:36

when I think about, like, that period. And,

22:40

yeah, I just feel so

22:42

so grateful that I had really

22:44

good support systems in place

22:47

with Eric and with my family and with some of

22:49

my friends who just

22:52

knew that even

22:53

though I was struggling and even if I wasn't

22:55

sharing

22:56

a hundred percent of what was happening

22:58

at that point in time that they

23:00

would be there for me. And --

23:02

Yeah. -- either whenever I was ready

23:04

to talk about it, So,

23:06

yeah, it was it was really

23:08

interesting and fortunately, like, giving

23:10

them giving me that space and time allowed

23:13

me to, like,

23:14

take the pressure off and figure

23:16

out what was next. And that

23:18

started kind of this whole that

23:21

kicked up this domino effect of

23:22

me starting to do

23:24

research in this evening disorder digital

23:26

tech lab in the Bay Area and

23:29

completely falling in love with the research

23:31

and with clinical work and then deciding now

23:34

to pursue PhD

23:35

in in clinical psychology. So

23:37

I'm yeah. You know, I think it all

23:39

worked out like it was supposed to even though

23:41

it was full period for sure?

23:44

It always does kind of hopefully, you

23:47

know,

23:47

I can't say that for everybody's

23:49

journey, but I think for the most part a lot things

23:51

do all into place, and they they eventually

23:53

work out. And think the thing that

23:56

is that's important to realize is,

23:58

like, the thing the the path of

23:59

of the pieces falling into place

24:02

is not just all the

24:04

bright and sunny and happy and shiny

24:06

aspects. Right? Like, the part

24:08

of the process is the struggle and

24:10

the adversity and the really,

24:12

really bad moments.

24:15

And And I think

24:17

that there's something particularly in

24:19

American and Western society where it's like, oh, we would

24:21

just want, like, the happy part, you know,

24:24

and but this other part is

24:26

is really critical. And so thank you for

24:28

sharing those two moments. So what a gift from

24:30

that mother, like, that she, like, noticed

24:33

that from you. And then the death component

24:36

Yeah. I mean, I always kinda mentioned that old

24:38

adage of every athlete dies twice, the

24:40

first occurs upon retirement. And

24:42

that that Adage has been around for for

24:44

decades. So -- Mhmm. --

24:46

you know, coming into

24:48

this interview, I've I've kinda had from

24:51

an anecdotal perspective like this, this

24:53

idea that Olympians, Olympic athletes

24:55

specifically seemed to really

24:57

struggle in leaving sport maybe

24:59

compared to others. Do you feel that's

25:02

what do you feel about that

25:03

thought or hypothesis?

25:05

Yeah. I it's

25:07

probably true. I mean, you know,

25:09

putting my research hat on, I'm like,

25:12

But,

25:15

like,

25:15

clinically Mhmm. Let me go look at this right

25:17

now. I know. is

25:19

these are the many hats that I wear on daily basis.

25:21

Right? But, you know, it's also really cool

25:24

to kind

25:24

of have those different perspectives now. But,

25:26

yeah, of course, anecdotally,

25:27

you know, I think a lot of

25:29

Olympians and Paralympians and athletes

25:31

who are just at that

25:32

top point o one percent of

25:35

sport

25:36

you have to be incredibly committed

25:39

and dedicated to

25:42

be at that level. And so

25:45

you know, sometimes there's, like, obsessive components,

25:48

there's, you know, this this

25:50

really intense commitment to

25:53

not only the amount of time

25:55

and effort that it requires, but just

25:57

the emotional, like, a dedication

25:59

and, yeah, kind of this identity piece.

26:02

Like, you have to believe that this is

26:04

what you are meant to do and that's

26:06

who you are.

26:08

So I think those kinds of combinations,

26:11

like inherently one themselves, to

26:15

really having to take lot of time

26:17

to disentangle

26:18

from that

26:20

experience. and even

26:23

kind of the personality that it requires,

26:25

you know. It's funny kind of going through

26:27

this program sometimes some of my

26:30

friends are like, wow, you seem you know, like, sometimes

26:32

these late athletes, like, I would imagine you

26:34

being so intense and, like, so,

26:36

you know so, like, with

26:39

it and and really committed and

26:41

competitive. I'm like, oh, yeah. Don't worry. That

26:43

part's this still there. That

26:45

hasn't gone away. Yeah. But

26:47

now it's just, you know, now I

26:50

I am

26:50

able to balance that

26:51

part of my identity and personality and

26:54

and that kind

26:55

of I can tap into that when

26:57

I need it because I knew that I have

26:59

that in my back product packet from

27:01

from my experiences in sports. So Yeah.

27:03

So all that to say, I think I think sometimes

27:06

that can kind of lend itself to

27:08

a more difficult transition out,

27:11

especially when

27:12

it inherently just the amount

27:14

of time that it takes to achieve that

27:16

that level in sport minimizes

27:19

the amount of time that you could pursue other

27:21

things in your life. So yeah.

27:23

You

27:23

know, you gotta fill the gaps. You have to

27:26

rebuild a little bit. You have to rediscover

27:28

who you are. and

27:30

it takes a lot of strength and vulnerability and,

27:33

like, willingness to do that because sometimes

27:35

people aren't able to retire on their own to neurons,

27:37

which I think, complicates that picture

27:39

even more.

27:40

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're right. I

27:42

think that the voluntary retirement versus

27:45

involuntary retirement certainly affects

27:47

how people will leave for it. But I

27:49

think it's even AAA

27:51

powerful and significant

27:53

point that even for somebody like you

27:56

who've reached such a high level and achieved

27:58

the success that you did. And in many

27:59

ways, while your last performance may have

28:02

not been the perfect one or

28:04

what not, but it sounds like you really had control

28:06

over your narrative, but still even

28:08

then Mhmm. -- it was still

28:11

hard for you. And so then that

28:13

hopefully, that validates other athletes' experiences.

28:16

Like, no matter what, it's just it's

28:18

probably going to be really hard.

28:20

And so I think my next question for you

28:22

within the context of this topic

28:24

is,

28:25

how were you able to recover and

28:27

repair?

28:27

And hopefully, I framed the question

28:29

less about, like, finding your next purpose

28:31

because Right? Because

28:34

it's like, I don't want I don't want even

28:36

though what I did too is, like, immediately jump into

28:38

the next thing. Right. Maybe from, like and

28:40

it's, like, oh, I'm totally fine. Like, oh, I'm not.

28:42

But from maybe, like, a more psychological emotional

28:44

perspective, how did you recover and repair?

28:47

Yeah. I mean,

28:51

sometimes I think it was

28:53

the well, I think it was a number

28:55

of things. One of the

28:58

key components, so and I

28:59

keep coming back to this was like that social

29:02

and family support. Their

29:04

willingness to

29:07

not push me when I wasn't ready

29:09

to talk about it. I think was

29:11

really helpful in like

29:14

I said, before kind of alleviating some of that

29:16

pressure to to fix it

29:18

right away. You know? I'm I'm such a problem

29:21

solver that I'm like, Here are

29:23

the next steps that I need to do and, you know, great.

29:25

It'll be all sorted out and, you

29:27

know.

29:27

And so I I think that was one

29:29

of the first experiences for me where I

29:32

really had to start listening to my emotions

29:34

and and

29:37

acknowledge the fact that there was some grief and

29:39

loss in

29:40

in that process. And, you

29:42

know, even I can think about a a time

29:44

when I remember, like, making the bed upstairs

29:46

a couple months ago, and I just had like, some

29:48

realization about my my

29:50

career and that retirement process.

29:53

And it was one of those moments where I was like, wow.

29:55

Yeah. I really was struggling. Like,

29:57

I -- Yeah. -- this wasn't even willing to

29:59

acknowledge that sometimes because

30:02

I wanted to Yeah,

30:05

I just wanted to move on to what was next.

30:07

And so I think

30:09

there's that social support, there's that willingness

30:12

to like experience

30:14

those emotions and

30:17

kind of be and sit with yourself

30:19

in that, but also

30:21

giving yourself, like, the time and the space.

30:24

I

30:24

I think I was less inclined

30:27

to do that because of who

30:29

I am and my

30:31

and my desire to just problem solve and

30:33

move on. But

30:35

the in

30:37

looking back, the when I was really

30:39

taking the time, like, taking that day

30:41

off after, you know,

30:43

trying to go to coach and just not

30:45

even being able to get out of my car.

30:48

That was one of those days where I

30:51

had good insights. I had good reflections and

30:54

spent some time just kind of cataloging, like,

30:57

some of these experiences that I've had and reflecting

30:59

both positively on

31:01

on Mike's skating career, but also understanding

31:04

that there were a lot of challenges. And

31:07

and that it wasn't just good or bad.

31:09

Right? Like, there was so much gray in

31:11

that and so much color in that experience.

31:14

So Yeah. So I think the social

31:16

support, the willingness to kind of sit

31:18

with it and taking that time and

31:20

space. Those were kind of the

31:22

three things that I think really

31:23

helped me navigate some of that.

31:26

Yeah. And the social support is so

31:28

really

31:29

so so important. And some of that social

31:31

support is is kind of having

31:33

to reach out. Right?

31:35

And and I think that's a really hard thing

31:37

that I really had to I mean, even

31:39

still today at forty one years old,

31:41

I'm still having to retrain my

31:43

mind because as a tennis

31:45

player, it's like, I can't

31:47

reach out. Like, we don't have any coaches. We're

31:49

not allowed to be coached typically -- Mhmm.

31:52

-- you're by yourself for the most part. So

31:54

for me, it's it's a skill that's

31:57

that's ever of evolving.

31:58

Really hope you

31:59

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32:02

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