0:00

Who do we become when we travel?

0:02

I have never flown without wearing a suit in

0:04

time.

0:04

Who are we allowed to be? Those blue

0:06

American passports as powerful as

0:08

they are. It doesn't work the same for

0:10

everyone. And where is everybody

0:12

going? I do love to sit

0:15

near the ocean drink. Join

0:17

me, Brendan Francis Noonan for Not Lost

0:19

Chat, a travel show where we speak

0:21

with writers, actors, and others. Who all have

0:23

one thing in common, the travel book.

0:26

Listen to not lost on the iHeartRadio

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app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

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your podcast. Alphabet boys

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is a new podcast series that goes inside

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undercover investigations. In the

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first season, we're diving into an FBI

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investigation of the twenty twenty protest.

0:41

It involves a cigar smoking mystery man

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who drives a silver

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hearse. And inside his hearse, we like a lot

0:46

of guns. But are federal agents catching

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them? He was just waiting for me to set the

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trying to get it to happen. Listen to Alphabet

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There is some kind of mystical force in this

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on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you

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1:32

Rupertfeld is a production of iHeartRadio. Hey,

1:35

everybody. It's Welcome to the

1:37

next chapter presented by Baron Davis

1:39

and Schick Studios. We continue

1:42

our best of series as we

1:44

re air some of our greatest episodes

1:46

right here on the next chapter. And

1:48

today, we get to hear from former NBA

1:51

and Stanford basketball player, Josh

1:53

Childress. I chose to re

1:55

air this episode because of how moving

1:58

and revealing this interview

2:00

was about the unique challenges professional

2:03

athletes face just across their entire

2:05

careers. The money,

2:08

the fame, the spotlight, being

2:11

tall and or physically dominant,

2:13

all the things society says is really important

2:16

in life and gives us so called value.

2:18

The things people often think would help solve

2:21

all their problems. These

2:23

factors I've learned are

2:25

actually at the root of

2:27

many of the most significant problems

2:29

professional athletes experience. And

2:32

how some of these factors, the money, the

2:34

fame, spotlight, etcetera, How

2:37

some of these can actually potentially trigger

2:39

some of the mental health issues and symptoms

2:41

or even disorders that athletes

2:44

endure? And for Josh,

2:47

it was social anxiety prompted

2:50

by some of the performance issues he experienced

2:52

and also being in the spotlight after

2:54

having signed the largest contract

2:56

in European basketball history at that

2:59

time. And this interview

3:01

marked the first time he ever had

3:03

talked about his mental health issues

3:05

publicly. And I so

3:07

appreciate him not only sharing his

3:09

story to help others, but trusting

3:12

me in this show to know

3:14

that we would at least try

3:17

to handle his story with care. So

3:20

a big warm thank you once again to Josh for

3:22

opening up and sharing his amazing

3:24

journey. So here is my interview

3:26

with Josh, which we recorded in

3:28

San Francisco back in twenty nineteen.

3:59

Welcome to the next chop her

4:01

with Prim rivative. By that point,

4:03

I mean, today, I was gone. I got dizzy.

4:05

My confidence was shot. You know, I met her how to

4:07

try every triggered in the book.

4:09

And by that time, in the book, and by that

4:11

time. This is the first time

4:14

we're ever sharing this, but I really think

4:16

that I get it. Develop strong

4:18

anxiety issues,

4:20

specific social anxiety, specific

4:22

social anxiety. Hey, guys.

4:24

Welcome to the next chapter. I'm your host.

4:27

Prem's Ripipapap. This

4:29

week's guest is former top ten

4:31

draft pick in Stanford graduate who,

4:33

after spending his first four seasons

4:35

in the NBA with the Atlanta Hawks,

4:38

shocked a lot of people when he left

4:40

and signed a three year

4:42

twenty million dollar deal to play

4:44

overseas with the Greek Olympiacos. That

4:47

deal he signed in two thousand eight marked

4:50

the largest contract in European

4:52

basketball history at the

4:53

time. The player I'm talking about

4:56

is Childress.

4:59

Children's coming. So

5:06

Those six foot lead on this nine,

5:09

nothing runs. Josh

5:12

was born and raised in the, what he calls,

5:15

nice and quiet parts of Compton, California.

5:17

The city he says gets a bad rap and

5:19

is often misrepresented by the media.

5:22

With the support of his parents and two

5:24

much older brothers, Childress

5:27

found his way out of Compton, California

5:29

as he became a McDonald's all American

5:32

in high school and an AP

5:34

first team, all American in

5:36

college. Now

5:39

out of the twenty plus app please and experts

5:41

I interview in this initial phase of the show?

5:44

Josh is one of the few guests I had absolutely

5:47

no relationship with prior to sitting down

5:49

with him. My buddy, Black Trey,

5:51

who, some of you may know from various

5:54

athletic and count the dings podcast, also

5:57

grew a play in Balencompton. And

5:59

he was the one that suggested, I reach

6:01

out to Childress. Blacktray

6:03

is one of those guys. You can just trust

6:05

because he knows good people and

6:07

good stories. So

6:09

I took his advice in cold called,

6:12

Josh, or cold DM

6:15

them, I should say, hey, on Twitter. And

6:17

we immediately connected. Indeed,

6:19

it's the power of social media.

6:22

Anyways, I flew out to California

6:24

last October so we could do this in person

6:27

and we sat down for few good

6:29

hours at the athletics headquarters in

6:31

downtown San Francisco. Over

6:34

the course of this conversation, Josh

6:37

opens up about a number of personal

6:39

things, including the real

6:41

story on why he left Atlanta Hawks,

6:43

the dark side of being the highest paid

6:46

basketball player in the world outside

6:48

the

6:48

NBA, and his

6:50

own personal struggles with mental

6:52

health. Panic attack and had my episode.

6:55

I was out there on the floor. We had just come

6:57

out of the time out. I was about to check back

6:59

in. Over the last couple of years,

7:01

we've seen a number of NBA players guys

7:03

like Kevin Love, Demar DeRosen,

7:05

and Royce White shared their issues

7:08

with anxiety and depression. And

7:10

Josh is taking a courageous step forward

7:13

to contribute to that conversation. This

7:16

marks the first time he speaking

7:18

publicly about his own battles

7:20

with social anxiety. I

7:23

really hope you enjoy this in-depth conversation

7:25

with him. So That's

7:27

further ado. Let's get to it.

7:30

Ladies and gentlemen, Josh

7:32

Childress. Hi,

7:37

Josh.

7:37

Hello. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Thanks

7:40

for having me. I appreciate you making the

7:42

hour drive eyes here. Yeah.

7:44

Let I get borders. So I I

7:46

know you like shoes and kits.

7:48

Mhmm. And I don't you because

7:51

this is a super casual

7:53

show and I wanna give

7:55

athletes and whoever come on. Like, the freedom

7:58

to feel comfortable And honestly, I'm

8:00

a little selfish. I just feel comfortable as well.

8:02

But you were dressed so nicely today.

8:05

And you mentioned that you got a haircut because

8:07

you you said that you went to Stanford game

8:09

last

8:10

night, and people weren't didn't recognize

8:11

you. You can speak about your father. Yeah. I saw I

8:14

actually saw my old coach Mike Montgomery. He was

8:16

annotating the game, and I walked up

8:18

And he's like, he paused, you know, and and

8:20

he didn't really recognize. I got the glasses, you know,

8:22

I cut my hair. I cut my hair product

8:24

two months ago. What Oh my gosh.

8:27

You know, it's it's a whose time?

8:30

Who's

8:30

time? I mean,

8:31

nothing has been with you for since, like, what,

8:33

junior year and high

8:35

high school?

8:36

Yeah. About the end. And I've had obviously

8:38

varying lengths of layer, but

8:41

it's been a fro for a long

8:42

time. So

8:43

Oh, my god. Something like twenty years. I don't

8:45

know. I don't know. It's

8:47

crazy when you think about it that way. Wow.

8:49

Yeah. I'm glad I'm catching you at this time

8:52

because as a

8:54

female who has longish hair

8:56

or, like, that is huge part

8:58

of your identity -- Mhmm. -- it comes

9:00

with you. It defines

9:02

you. So you must be going through

9:04

some serious changes for you today.

9:07

You know, the voice cycle analysis, but

9:09

I mean,

9:10

But you're a psych major anyway. I am.

9:12

See, this seems to do. Majoring. I

9:15

did. So that you understood. No.

9:20

You know, I was I was going

9:22

through this period, so I I lived overseas

9:24

for a while. Mhmm. And, you

9:26

know, finding somebody to, like, do your hair sees

9:28

is always a challenge. And I went to this

9:30

period where I was wearing twists a lot, and I

9:32

was going between the twists and the fro. And

9:35

my hair just became so long.

9:37

Like, it was It might not have been as long as

9:39

yours.

9:39

Are you serious? It was it was you

9:42

you couldn't tell in the frol, but when I got

9:44

it done, it was it was long. And

9:46

so this in between period,

9:48

it just looked crazy. And it was just

9:50

hard to manage, hard to keep up. So

9:52

over the probably the last six or so months,

9:54

I was like, I need to cut it. And I just been

9:56

looking at like, I was on Google all the time looking at

9:58

haircuts and different styles and this and

10:00

that, and I finally just did it.

10:02

I think about my experience when I when I graduated

10:05

from college and I first

10:07

got into television. And that

10:09

was, like, what, sixteen years ago. But

10:12

at the time, they were, like,

10:13

rooms worked out. You're you're gonna have to change your

10:15

name. It's too ethnic people

10:18

aren't going to remember it. You're going to change your last

10:20

name. Your hair is too long. It's too some minutes.

10:22

Too sexy and sloppy. And they were

10:24

telling me all these things. You're telling me not to

10:26

be me.

10:27

Yeah. Yeah. I'm

10:27

like, that sounds really stupid, so

10:30

I actually kept my long hair.

10:32

Out of almost like rebellion just to see how

10:35

far I could go to keep it. And

10:37

I ended up keeping it for

10:39

ten plus years. Well, that's I kept

10:41

my my full

10:42

name. So I guess

10:44

it won't write it to this yeah.

10:46

Yeah. I don't I don't I mean, they So

10:49

if you want you to conform to what is

10:51

on TV, you know, and what other people look

10:53

like and it's like, and me, you you Right.

10:56

Embrace that. Right. And I think that that's

10:58

we're seeing that at a macro level in the country

11:01

a bit, but that's a whole another

11:02

conversation. You know. Right? Don't

11:05

consider myself in any way a trailblazer. I think

11:07

I was just being cautiously stubborn.

11:10

But it

11:12

does take people to

11:15

put their foot down and say, you know what

11:17

what I'm doing is okay. I feel

11:19

like you're a little bit like that. I know

11:21

you've kinda defined yourself as

11:24

somebody who thinks outside

11:26

the box and it's wired

11:27

differently. Do you

11:29

still consider that about yourself?

11:32

To an extent, I I mean, I wouldn't say I think

11:34

outside that box. I'm just I'm stubborn

11:37

too. Right? And I have my touch

11:39

points that, you know, I make sure that I

11:41

I focus on and, you

11:43

know, I like to embrace who I am.

11:46

And, you know,

11:48

it feels very strongly about certain things

11:50

and, you know, I'm

11:52

okay with you having a different opinion. You

11:55

know, and I think that that's what makes, you

11:58

know, people great is, you know, ability

12:00

to interact and and, you know, dialogue

12:02

on different opinions and and, you know, different

12:04

topics without trying to force each

12:07

other's, you know, views on on somebody

12:09

else. So

12:10

Of what I know of you, you you

12:12

seem like somebody who is strong

12:14

in that sense of I really,

12:17

really want to be me. For

12:20

myself, you know, for example, I don't think I'm

12:22

don't think I actually have always had the confidence

12:24

to do

12:24

that. Like, now I do, at thirty eight years old. When

12:26

I was younger, I was an absolute people

12:28

pleaser,

12:29

and I

12:29

was a perfectionist. But it seems like a very

12:31

young age, you always kind of had that

12:34

thread. I guess the perfect

12:36

example that would be when made my college decision.

12:38

My two choices came down to Stanford in Kansas.

12:41

Roy William was a coach at Kansas

12:43

at the time. You know, he really did

12:45

a great job of recruiting not

12:48

only me, but my family. My my brothers,

12:50

my older brothers and my mom loved you.

12:53

And, I mean, I I thought he was great. And obviously,

12:55

he's a hall of fame coach and an amazing

12:57

person. But you

13:00

know, when I told my mama I was gonna choose Kansas,

13:02

she started crying. I mean, Stanford, she started crying.

13:05

Really?

13:05

Yeah. Like, crying tears.

13:07

She loves Roy. Yeah. You know, and

13:10

that was really hard on me. But

13:12

at the same time, I had to do what was best for me.

13:14

I I just felt that Stanford was

13:16

a better choice for me. And, you know,

13:18

it's it's hard to make that decision and

13:21

deal with it at the age of seventeen. But

13:24

I did and, you know, obviously,

13:26

you know, it worked

13:27

out. To make a decision that

13:30

is different considering the

13:32

neighborhood in the area that came from, Compton.

13:35

But also go against the wishes

13:37

of your family, especially mama.

13:39

Like, no one wants it to mama bear.

13:41

That must have been really challenging.

13:45

One of the biggest things that attracted

13:47

me to Stanford was the

13:49

guys that I would be around, my teammates. And

13:52

I felt one hundred percent comfortable

13:54

in that environment with them, you know, just a natural

13:56

fit with those guys. And that's who you

13:59

spend, you know, ninety five percent of your

14:01

time with as you know. So that was

14:03

something that I was really kinda holding

14:05

on, had nothing to do with, you know,

14:07

Stanford as

14:07

university. So

14:08

it was less about the academics and and

14:11

none of that stuff. It was just more about fit.

14:13

More about fit. So what what was your mom

14:15

like? Was she strict? Curfew

14:17

because of the circumstances, things that you may

14:19

or may not be exposed

14:20

to, or she just Never

14:22

really had to --

14:23

No. -- tell me that. I mean, you

14:25

you learn it. Right? And my

14:27

mom actually worked nights. So,

14:31

you know, that moves on me to just go go

14:33

to gym, you know, give work out in, get my shots

14:35

up, and then come home and finish my homework.

14:37

Now I had certain things after that to make sure my homework

14:39

was

14:39

done, you know, and and all that stuff. So

14:41

I didn't really have time to you

14:44

know, go and and run the streets if you will.

14:46

Noted I want to. mean What

14:48

are your first memories in in terms of

14:50

your first exposure to sports? Washington

14:52

Auto Brothers play? Basketball. Yeah. If they

14:54

basketball at the park, and

14:57

enterprise park is the name of the park. So

14:59

yeah. I just grew up there in Washington playing, like, Ms.

15:01

Lee's games, and you know, a little tournaments

15:03

and things like

15:03

that. I was probably, you

15:06

know, six or seven.

15:08

Okay. And when did you start playing?

15:10

Right around at the same time. So I'd

15:13

be on the other side of the gym. And

15:14

did you play any other sports? You're

15:16

a volleyball player. I tried. I tried playing the sport.

15:19

Here

15:19

did you draw? You're so tall. You're meant you're

15:22

just meant to be basketball. Or ball I

15:24

know you played volleyball. You're very it sounds like

15:26

you're a very Play volleyball, my senior

15:28

high school. Oh, that was okay. Yeah. I I,

15:30

you know, basketball going to

15:32

the AIU circuit for all those

15:34

years and, you know, III

15:38

was fortunate to make a McDonald's game.

15:40

And I just say, let's just try something else.

15:42

Like, something where I'm not, like, worried about

15:44

scouts looking at me, recruiting, the

15:47

body of our coach mentioned, like, he could help me with

15:49

my vertical, which which Uber doesn't wanna

15:51

increase his

15:51

vertical. Right? So so I just tried

15:53

it for my senior year and ended up doing

15:55

alright. That's good.

15:56

What other sports did you try? That's

15:59

right. Soccer, football, baseball,

16:03

And how old

16:04

I was trying to send all of No school, high school

16:06

when you're

16:07

No. TNC. No. No.

16:09

No. I'm I realized I wasn't. Very

16:11

good at any of those. So

16:13

I cut that pretty quickly. At

16:15

what point did you realize that basketball

16:17

could be future for you? It was after

16:20

my sophomore year high school. I went to the

16:22

Nike, the American camp and had

16:24

a really good camp. And that kinda just

16:27

put me on the national scene for recruiting.

16:30

And, you know, from there, it was at

16:32

the very minimum. I was gonna get a kind of sky I

16:34

never really, like, looked at, you

16:36

know, the NBA as a reality until

16:40

my junior year college. I kinda just

16:42

just try to, you know, focusing on,

16:45

you know, the task at hand, get

16:47

to college, and when I was in college, you

16:49

know, helped my team win, and then

16:52

know, my brother started to get eaten up from agents and

16:54

stuff like that, and that's when I started

16:56

to think about NBA. I find it. No.

16:58

I at this point, I've I've interviewed a number

17:00

of athletes. And I find it really interesting

17:03

that some of you guys don't even

17:06

think about playing at the professional level.

17:08

Until much later in life, which is very

17:10

different than today's

17:12

generation -- Yeah. -- where people are where

17:14

kids are like, I'm going

17:16

to get a scholarship, and I'm gonna

17:18

play professionally. And they're saying it's a six year

17:20

old. I want to be a doctor when I was a kid. So,

17:22

like, I mean, you know,

17:24

who I'll I enjoyed who, but, you

17:27

know, there was there was nobody

17:29

that I knew that played

17:31

professionally, so I didn't have, like, person

17:33

that I can last you on to and say, I wanna be him.

17:36

Did you

17:36

have did you have doctors? You So my mom

17:39

was in the medical field, not a

17:41

doctor, but you

17:43

know, I just I saw that

17:45

and then I

17:48

I read a book about being Carson

17:50

at the time. And I just thought that it

17:52

was so cool that, you know, African American

17:55

never formed, you know, the

17:57

the Siamese twin I

18:00

think it was a, you know, it was a the

18:02

brain. I'm trying to blank on

18:04

what you call it

18:05

now. Yeah. But he separated to Siamese

18:07

via through the brand. It was it

18:10

started was really

18:11

cool. So I wanted to be like, yeah. So when

18:13

did you start entertaining

18:16

options and and really looking at schools

18:19

here.

18:19

Junior year. And it's it's funny

18:21

because my junior year was probably my worst

18:23

year in high school. From a basketball

18:25

perspective. Mhmm. I think that, you know,

18:28

that the influx of

18:30

attention kinda

18:32

impacted that a bit and I I just

18:34

didn't know how to handle it. You know,

18:36

still obviously put up good numbers and all that stuff.

18:38

But I just if I'm thinking back to,

18:40

you know, what it was, that was probably

18:43

my worst year of of high school Prim

18:45

a basketball perspective and so. But

18:48

I was looking in. I was, you know, talking

18:51

talking to what well, my brother is talking to my friends.

18:53

You know, we all tried to have a a pact to

18:56

go somewhere together. Mhmm. You

18:58

know, and and, you know, we talked through that for

19:00

a while, but, you know, that was

19:02

when it it became real.

19:04

Yeah. Because there was a huge spotlight on you.

19:07

Getting all of that attention and then also

19:09

experiencing a dip in your

19:11

performance. Did that impact anything

19:13

later in life? Did that teach

19:16

you a

19:16

lesson? Did you how did you learn from that?

19:18

I didn't. That's

19:21

true. And I I've had I've had situation

19:24

since where, you know, I didn't

19:28

respond in the way that I think I could

19:30

have. But Yeah.

19:32

I mean, it's it's interesting

19:35

just, you know, when you break it down mentally

19:37

and you think about, you know, I

19:39

guess, how you could have done things differently? What

19:42

caused you to do that? Or think that

19:44

way, you know so in in high school

19:46

at junior year, after that, I

19:48

realized that there wasn't a year that I'd like

19:50

to have. And, you

19:52

know, I I doubled down on my training and

19:54

my focus and, you know,

19:56

really tried to kinda like

19:59

narrow my focus towards, you know,

20:01

have a great senior year, you know,

20:03

win a championship and,

20:05

you know, choose my my university that

20:08

I'm going to. My senior year was was great,

20:10

and I I wasn't able to win the championship.

20:12

I lost in in the final, but you

20:15

know, I I felt like that was a a good

20:17

send off for

20:17

me. But it

20:18

sounds like you made the adjustments because you had a really

20:20

good senior year. Yeah. So

20:22

then why do you say that you didn't handle

20:24

it or do you didn't learn from it?

20:26

Fast forward to my first year

20:28

in Greece. My first

20:30

year over there, like, you know, I signed

20:32

the largest contract in European basketball

20:34

history and

20:36

the amount of attention that

20:39

I got was overwhelming. Mhmm. And

20:41

I really struggled that year on the

20:43

court, struggled off the court,

20:46

and kind of became recuse

20:48

if you will. I just stayed in my house and, you

20:50

know, played by this amazing

20:52

house, you know, not too far from the beach

20:54

in Athens. And I was in the household

20:56

day. Mhmm. just I couldn't deal with

20:59

the the scrutiny, the pressure, that

21:01

summer came back. I doubled down.

21:03

My training, really focusing on everything,

21:05

and and had much better year in my second year

21:07

over there, you know. Had I learned kind of how

21:10

to approach that in the first year, you

21:12

know, I may have felt a bit better about,

21:14

you know, my time in Europe.

21:21

Man, III think it's it's so easy

21:23

to look back and say, well,

21:26

I gotta handle it better. But I mean, you made

21:28

the adjustments at seventeen years old

21:30

and the time you went to grace your level, you're

21:32

in your

21:32

mid-1s. Yeah. Mid-1s.

21:34

That's still young. You know, and most

21:36

people don't make those adjustments

21:38

within a year. How did you know that was the

21:40

right decision for you to go to

21:42

Stanford? From a social perspective, I

21:44

knew when I went on my visit

21:46

to Kansas, you

21:48

know, you know, there was significant

21:51

amount of, like, drinking party in.

21:54

The college Right? And I don't

21:56

drink. And I've never drank in my life.

21:58

Really? I have not. And

22:01

I had an amazing time at Stanford

22:04

on my visit there and was not

22:06

offered a sip of

22:06

alcohol.

22:07

I went on my five recurring drive. Everybody's

22:09

offering me everything. We

22:12

just it was just a feel. And I mean, obviously,

22:14

that was a major a

22:16

major impact on the decision, but, you know, I had

22:19

a a great time. I was you know,

22:21

I laughed more than I ever laughed before my life

22:23

and, you know, just a great group of people.

22:25

Alcohol wasn't part of it,

22:27

you know. And so That

22:30

was a big one. Mhmm. And then from

22:32

a from a basketball perspective, I knew that I'd

22:34

I'd have the opportunity to grow

22:37

into who I can become at Stanford a

22:39

bit a bit better. You know,

22:41

Kansas is a great program and

22:44

Roy is a great coach. But

22:46

year after year, they're getting two and three

22:48

McDonald's Americans. And,

22:50

you know, you either

22:53

performing or you're not. And if you're not,

22:55

you know, you can get pushed down that bench

22:57

and not that I didn't like competition,

23:00

but at the same

23:00

time. You

23:01

wanna

23:01

build a play? I wanna build a play and put myself

23:03

in a position, you know, to better myself.

23:05

Mhmm. And you

23:07

know, that was that was it. Did

23:09

you have any challenges

23:12

in the transition to to Stanford?

23:14

Because, you know, being a division

23:17

one student athlete, especially at

23:19

a highly academic

23:20

institution, is it's not

23:23

easy. No. Not not for me. It wasn't. No.

23:25

Not for me. It wasn't. And and Coast

23:27

Montgomery was very much of

23:29

the mindset that you're smarter than

23:31

to get in here. You're smarter than to figure it

23:33

out. Right. So there was not a ton of

23:36

you know, we didn't have study hall. We didn't have,

23:38

you know, stuff that allowed the other. There was no babysitting.

23:41

So you gotta just figure things out. And,

23:43

you know, that takes an adjustment period. Know,

23:45

me coming from where I came from, from, you know, inner

23:47

city, you know, Palo Alto, which isn't

23:49

exactly, you know, the most ethnically

23:51

diverse, you know, place in the country.

23:54

I was it was a bit of a culture shock there,

23:56

but, you know, you made it

23:58

work. This was fun about transitions.

24:00

That's why I created the shows because feel

24:02

like transitions are the hardest thing

24:04

in life because it means having

24:06

to adjust and going from the unknown to

24:08

something that's really

24:09

unfamiliar. I went to a high school where

24:12

you know, I always did pretty well academically. And,

24:16

you know, I could I could kind of finagle

24:19

my way through getting good grades. And I was in

24:21

my first class at Stanford, like we

24:23

did a did like a book analysis. They

24:25

had these abstract ideas and

24:27

they were, you know, picking apart

24:29

different words and the meanings and It's

24:31

like

24:33

I just read the story. What the hell you know

24:35

what I mean?

24:35

Honestly do. And that was like a big

24:38

wake up call. It's like, I gotta get

24:40

I gotta figure this out because this is I

24:43

don't know what the heck I'm doing here. But yeah.

24:46

That and then you know, the schedule

24:48

of, you know, being a college athlete,

24:51

you know, and people, you know, they say student athlete,

24:53

but it's flipped. And you know that

24:55

too, you know, your athlete student. Six

24:57

AM weights or seven AM weights and,

25:00

you know, practice and film and all

25:02

that stuff while trying to you

25:04

know, balance, you know, class,

25:07

and sleep, and social

25:09

life, and all that.

25:10

So, you know, that first

25:12

that first quarter first two quarters himself.

25:15

I thought my struggles in college

25:17

as a student athlete were just my

25:19

own. And to hear from so

25:21

many other athletes who played at much

25:24

higher level than I did. And do

25:26

you hear people saying they almost quit? They

25:28

almost walked out. They all transferred? A

25:30

coach, they had an issue with a coach. A coach told

25:33

them that don't want if I were

25:35

the original coach, I wouldn't have

25:37

recruited you. And sent that to an athlete

25:39

before he even stepped foot on on

25:41

campus. You know, did you have

25:43

any of those moments or what was freshman

25:45

year your your toughest? I started

25:48

out my freshman year doing well. And then,

25:50

you know, for whatever reason, coach decided

25:52

to to, you know, kind of mess with

25:54

my playing time a bit. You know, that

25:57

was difficult. Right? You go from

25:59

being the man, being McDonald's All American,

26:02

playing big minutes of the freshman, and

26:04

then not. What happened? What did I

26:06

do? You know? And going

26:08

through that process was tough.

26:10

Cozier's a brutal man. Mean,

26:12

Joseph's are brutal. Like Yeah.

26:14

I I often think how many how

26:16

many careers were ruined

26:19

because of a coach. Mhmm. Probably

26:21

a ton. You know, they know that they control

26:23

your destiny and some

26:26

guys just take advantage of that. You

26:28

went through so much stuff. A lot of your, like,

26:30

powerful transitioning. So much stuff

26:32

happened in the NBA and

26:35

knowing a little bit more about, like, why

26:37

you decide to go to Stanford and feeling

26:39

safe in that community. Mhmm. And now

26:41

you're you go to the NBA. It

26:44

like, it's gotta feel like the WOW WOW West.

26:46

Everybody's balling, everybody's competing, everybody's

26:49

drinking, everybody's doing all sorts of crazy

26:51

stuff.

26:51

I mean,

26:51

what was that so you lead after three

26:53

years from Stanford, so what was that transition like?

26:56

Fun. It was. Wow.

26:58

It was fun. It was So it wasn't overwhelming?

27:01

It was overwhelming early just

27:03

because of the coach

27:05

that I had, and I said in a in a negative

27:07

way, he was just old school because

27:10

Mike was in he came from Indiana,

27:13

you know, under the Bobby Knight regime, and then

27:15

he coasting the league under Larry

27:17

Brown. And so, you know,

27:19

it was very much AAA

27:22

vibe in the locker room and seen an

27:24

organization that, like, you know, rookies pay

27:26

their dues. And so

27:29

I remember it to his day at times where,

27:31

you know, all the veteran guys would have the day

27:33

off. And, you know, it'd be

27:36

the four four rookies, four or five rookies,

27:38

and we'd be in there running three man. Weave,

27:40

you know, this all the drills that you would run

27:42

with a full

27:42

squad.

27:43

So this is supposed to be your day off during

27:45

the week?

27:45

This was their day off. It was a doctor else.

27:48

Just

27:48

didn't get a day off during the week. We didn't get a ton of

27:50

days off. You know, it was just Ricky's payer dues

27:52

and, you know, Ricky's gotta learn

27:53

You don't have to say that, but I'll say it.

27:56

That's bad. Yeah. All day is cool.

27:58

So so that was that was

28:00

your That was our that was our rookie year. And

28:02

so myself, Josh Smith, Royal

28:05

Ivy Dante Smith. We

28:09

just we rode with it, you know, and we

28:11

just, you know, kept grinding and

28:13

You know, we obviously got better over the year,

28:16

but that was our introduction. Practice. Oh,

28:18

yeah. We

28:18

did. He

28:21

was

28:21

trained three hundred and sixty five thousand a year

28:23

versus two fifty.

28:25

So we have Or It was was fun. It was

28:27

a fun fun initial year. We

28:30

were terrible as a team. Mhmm. I think we won,

28:32

like, thirteen games, which was, like,

28:34

tied a record for one of the worst records

28:37

in league but

28:39

that's right. I met Al. The the

28:41

the moment I knew Al was a good dude.

28:43

So we had just had a and

28:46

we lost in in Indiana, and

28:48

it was a bad loss. And

28:52

we had another veteran on the team that

28:54

was mad that you know,

28:56

coach Wilson has had decided to play the rookies,

28:58

you know, significant minutes. And

29:01

so we lost her in the locker room, everybody's

29:03

getting changed, dressed whatever. And

29:06

his guy is over in the corner just just

29:08

going off about how terrible this

29:10

is, and he should begin playing time and

29:12

yada yada yada. And Al

29:14

stood up but naked

29:17

and just started going in on it. Really?

29:19

You know, you should embrace it. You should you should, you

29:22

know, you should help them. That's your job to help

29:24

them. This is this you know, and just going

29:26

at the dude. And so they was sitting there arguing

29:28

too, but they could grow me. But

29:32

that was Al sticking

29:35

up for us. And he didn't

29:37

have to, and he did. And,

29:39

you

29:39

know, from that point on, was like, this

29:41

It's

29:42

stand up do. It's a bad doo. So

29:44

you said that, you know, your

29:47

junior year in high school, you had a lot of pressure

29:49

and and then going to

29:51

Greece. But what about

29:53

being drafted, being a top ten drafted? Did

29:56

you feel any pressure there or were you

29:58

-- Okay. Absolutely. Out

30:00

of all the moments throughout throughout

30:02

your career, where did that rank

30:04

being rookie and and being drop drafted?

30:06

What's six six overall and you're the

30:09

highest pick out of Stanford till this

30:11

day.

30:12

Where did that rank in terms

30:14

of feeling the pressure?

30:17

Top three. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

30:19

Was a one? No.

30:22

What what was number one? Was a group Three

30:24

number

30:24

one. And

30:25

what was your second one in high school?

30:26

Maybe ten. I mean, the league might be number two.

30:29

Okay. Yeah.

30:33

It's it's the nature of the business, but

30:35

you manage it. Like, everybody else does,

30:37

you go out, you have fun, you you party,

30:40

you travel, and you're, you know, you just

30:43

dealing. You know, you're not really like,

30:45

I didn't actively go and seek

30:47

help or anything. I was just

30:50

trying to survive, trying you know,

30:52

you have good games, you have bad games, you try

30:54

to hold on to the new games as much as you can.

30:57

But yeah, you just try and survive like

31:01

And I found myself,

31:03

you know, spending more time with family, you

31:05

know, but you also have your COVID mechanisms, like,

31:08

used to shop a lot

31:09

or, you know, what have you. I just

31:12

you guys deal within different ways. Everybody

31:15

everybody has a coping mechanism. I mean, it

31:17

it it always pressure always manifests

31:20

itself in some way.

31:22

This is not characteristic of

31:24

athletes or any like, across

31:26

the board if you are listening right now and

31:28

you have something that you're dealing

31:29

with, is manifesting somehow. Absolutely.

31:32

And okay. First time I have a money too,

31:34

like Right. You know, that

31:36

that definitely added to it. But,

31:39

you know, that going out and

31:42

and just this partying and you

31:44

know, all that stuff. But you

31:46

didn't drink or you don't see you

31:49

just do a go out and party still and

31:51

Just

31:51

not. Yeah. Just not drink. I mean, another part

31:53

of that too is we were so

31:56

bad as a team that

31:59

you know, that also took some of the pressure

32:01

off. We got to play we got to play big minutes.

32:03

Mhmm. You know, we developed a relationship.

32:06

And so as the year went on, you know,

32:08

I feel like I got better and better. I

32:10

think I finished that year. I

32:13

didn't make the the the rookie team the

32:15

rookie game, but I finished a year, like, third

32:17

and and double doubles behind, you

32:19

know, two centers. Like, I I felt like

32:21

I, you know, I was on track to have

32:24

finishing your strong, but have a good second year.

32:26

So you're in Atlanta for about

32:28

four years. Then comes the

32:30

decision. Where you see

32:33

in America or you go overseas.

32:35

I was just like, you know, doing some research

32:38

and there was this one interview

32:40

that you did with with PTI. And

32:42

they everybody was counting you about why

32:44

you decided to go to Greece

32:46

instead of staying here

32:49

domestically. Why in fact

32:51

did you do this? Was it purely

32:53

for financial

32:54

considerations? Or is there more to it than

32:56

that? It was a little

32:58

more toward the next. I think that, you know, obviously,

33:01

you know, the financial reasons come into play.

33:03

But, you know, it came down to me

33:07

making the decision based on on what I felt

33:09

was right. I mean, I I went

33:11

through the process of of restricted

33:13

free agency. I didn't like my options.

33:16

And, you know, Atlanta was kinda

33:19

dragging their

33:19

feet. So I made a move across

33:22

three

33:22

looking back, why did you

33:24

why did you decide to go? To go. Mhmm.

33:27

So if you're familiar with the the free

33:29

agency process in NBA, you have unrestricted

33:31

and restricted free So at that time,

33:33

I was a restricted free agent. Now I had

33:35

spent the last four years,

33:38

you know, developing myself in

33:40

Atlanta and to, you know, a

33:42

big part of that organization in that team. You

33:44

know, I had been in the running for six minute a year

33:46

for a couple of years and, you know,

33:48

really was I

33:50

felt like a, you know, a a strong

33:53

part of the core of the team. My

33:55

fourth year, my before my my fourth

33:57

year, you know, that summer, myself

33:59

and Josh Smith were trying to get, you know, contract

34:01

extensions and the current team

34:03

at the time, Billy Knight, he

34:06

told me you know, you stay

34:08

healthy this fourth year. We'll make sure we

34:10

get you done, you know, get you thing two things

34:12

sorted. Cool. So,

34:14

you know, I really locked in on you

34:17

know, my body eaten right. You

34:20

know, I went and saw a fluke to

34:22

Nike. I got because I had foot issues.

34:24

Flew to Nike. They did analysis of my

34:27

feet. Got me in the right shoes. So I made

34:29

sure, you know, for that year, I wouldn't have

34:31

any foot issues, orthotics. All that thing

34:33

was perfect. That fourth

34:35

year hits have a good year. We

34:37

make the playoffs for the first time in, like,

34:40

twenty years. City's rockin.

34:42

You know, we we take Boston to

34:45

game seven in, you know, in the first

34:47

round. They that went to title that year. But

34:51

great year -- Mhmm. -- then they

34:53

fire billings. For what reason,

34:55

I don't know. That a new guy

34:57

comes in and essentially is, like,

35:01

test the market, you know, who wants

35:03

you to go out and, you know, see what what

35:05

you come back

35:05

with. No. I understand that that's just

35:07

part of this part for the course, right, for for

35:09

the frequency process. So the

35:11

writing

35:11

was on the wall a little bit. But No.

35:13

It was more so. For me, it was more

35:15

so a slap in the face from

35:18

the perspective of, you know, I have I have

35:20

poured four years into this organization. You

35:23

know, any obviously, all

35:25

the core stuff is on the core, but

35:27

all the community engagement, anything you guys

35:29

have ever needed at me you

35:30

know, I was always the guy that was

35:32

lead on if you'd like to read to achieve and,

35:34

like, on the like, call that

35:36

stuff. Yeah.

35:36

Yeah.

35:37

And, you know, and then now this

35:39

new guy comes in I have no relationship with.

35:42

And, you know, it's just, like, a

35:44

good test market. So

35:46

it it you know, it was a little bit of AAA

35:50

jazz, and so I did.

35:52

And I went out and

35:54

waited we found a couple of teams that were

35:56

interested in doing science rates, one

35:59

of them being San Antonio Spurs.

36:02

Now Outside of

36:04

the Bulls as a kid, the Spurs are my

36:06

next favorite team. I just love Tim Duncan.

36:08

I love how I mean, he's obviously all

36:10

faint layer, but, you know, he just was no

36:12

nonsense and just surgical on the court.

36:15

And I always admired their

36:17

approach to the game. So I

36:19

met with Konstantovitch. He

36:21

told me what he thought, you know, kinda

36:23

the the role that that he he thought I would

36:25

feel And basically, I was going

36:27

to be their next version

36:30

of Bruce Poland. So, you know, kind

36:32

of developing to a a, you know, defender

36:34

utility player but just, you know, really

36:36

kinda hone in on being a point three point shooter

36:39

and add value in other

36:40

areas. But but that was the team that I you know,

36:42

that was the team --

36:43

Yeah. -- at the time too. Right? And so

36:46

you know, they shot that deal down.

36:49

Atlanta did. They shot it down. And so then

36:51

that just added more fuel to the fire

36:53

for me. And so then out of the blue,

36:55

I get this offer from Greece. My market

36:57

at that time was, like, I was a mid level

37:00

mid level guy, so it was, like, a five year

37:02

thirty three million dollar deal. And I was

37:04

gonna make that over there in three years.

37:06

I took a serious look at the deal, and

37:09

then they flew me over. And

37:12

it was summer in Athens. I was like,

37:14

oh, it's not too bad, you know. And and

37:17

so I came back. I spoke with with,

37:19

you know, with the Hawks. I met with one of the

37:21

owners of the Hawks. You know, we talked through

37:23

it. I had developed a relationship with him over

37:25

the years, and everybody kinda cautioned me against

37:27

doing

37:27

it. From

37:29

the heat Prim the box or just like other than the box.

37:32

But you know what? I do what I do.

37:34

You know? So So

37:37

I told them this was the

37:38

offer. There was no they didn't, like,

37:40

speed up their process at all. But

37:42

they ended did they not counter or did they

37:44

they No. So at the end of the day, I didn't

37:46

have a contract offer from them.

37:49

So

37:50

what's the grease? Olympiacos, the

37:52

team you're gonna be joining. Says

37:55

they signed you because they want to

37:57

win the European league championship.

37:59

Alright. You grew up dreaming of winning the NBA

38:02

championship. I questions can win in the

38:04

Euro League championship mean to give

38:06

Josh. It means a lot. It means a lot now.

38:08

I mean, I'm a part of that team, and I'm

38:11

a do whatever I have to do to try to up with

38:13

the wind. Teams can

38:16

hold a guy hostage until the

38:18

market dries up. And then

38:20

you have to settle for what they're gonna give me.

38:22

Now who knows what they would have given

38:24

me? I don't know, but

38:26

I don't know. Was that a weird

38:29

dynamic with people questioning

38:31

you why you made that decision and people

38:33

had no idea about the story

38:35

behind everything.

38:36

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know,

38:38

the fans in Atlanta hated

38:41

me. I mean, it was like, why would you

38:43

leave? We did this, but it was like,

38:45

I wanted to be there. You know, I

38:47

I really truly did, you

38:50

know. And and it was more hurtful

38:52

because of the fact that we went

38:55

from thirteen to twenty

38:57

six to, you know, I think, forty something or

38:59

high thirties to playoffs, you

39:02

know, in the span of four years. And,

39:05

you know, you fire the guy that put

39:07

the team together and you, you know,

39:09

you bring in this new guy who For

39:12

what? If we hadn't been winning and we hadn't

39:14

made the playoffs and done it, like, I understand.

39:16

You gotta make changes. You gotta, you know, do what you gotta

39:18

do. But we had a good solid core

39:20

group of guys. You know, myself,

39:23

Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, Marvin Williams,

39:25

Mike Bibby was on the squad at that time.

39:28

John's opportunity. So we had

39:30

a good a good unit. Why? Why

39:32

worked that

39:33

up? So that this is around two thousand

39:35

eight -- Mhmm. -- when you when you move over to

39:37

Greece. Yep. And then and

39:39

then little does anyone

39:41

know. You go over there. You're like, Michael

39:44

Jordan.

39:48

And we'll we'll a lot of attention

39:50

was more so because of the contract.

39:52

You know, that was that was

39:54

the the big deal and the fact that it

39:56

was such a a big deal here. He

39:58

was a guy who was, you know, leaving in

40:00

the prime of his career to go,

40:02

you know, go overseas And,

40:06

you know, this is obviously

40:08

before social media was really

40:09

big. Yeah. Myspace, you know, which was

40:11

like the the the popping thing in

40:13

fact, dear.

40:14

What was it myself? But

40:17

yeah. And so I'd always been able to kind

40:19

of, I guess, still remain

40:22

private to an extent. You know, I've always been

40:24

a private person, and and I've always

40:27

like to kind of you know, kinda stand

40:29

the shadows a bit. And so I'm

40:32

on front street front front center over

40:34

there every day, every night.

40:36

I'm walking the streets I got,

40:38

you know, my team's fans, other team's

40:41

fans, you know, stopping me,

40:43

saying stuff. It was just for

40:46

for engineering

40:46

person, it was it was

40:49

really really difficult to deal

40:50

with. Do you think there would have been

40:54

that much of attention if

40:56

your contract wasn't that

40:57

big? No.

40:58

Not at all. It was because

41:01

it was the biggest contract and your

41:03

opinion history. That's gonna be a

41:05

weird experience when

41:10

like, your your personal information is

41:12

out I know it happens all the time with athletes,

41:14

and I think that media

41:17

and and fans we

41:19

take it for granted, and it becomes part

41:21

of the business and information Prim

41:24

a personal perspective. And I like, I wanna highlight

41:26

this because it's something that we don't talk about.

41:28

But it's like everybody knows how much

41:30

you make.

41:31

This works. The absolute

41:33

works. And it's like It's

41:37

a true invasion of privacy, you know.

41:39

And, like, I guarantee you

41:41

if I walked into an office and asked somebody

41:43

how much money they make was his salary. They

41:46

look at me like I was crazy. Yeah. You know? And

41:48

yet, you know how much I make. It

41:51

just it it sucks.

41:54

You know, also only loss. I

41:56

wish it could change, but it won't.

42:00

But, yeah, just something

42:03

that, you know, is is always

42:05

gonna be an issue for a professional

42:08

athletes just because, you know,

42:11

It's just the the other side

42:13

of it and the negativity it brings to

42:15

guys, you know, is not ideal.

42:17

When you talk about the negative negativity

42:19

with with guys, it sound

42:22

it sounds like you've you've seen it impact

42:24

people

42:24

uncertain. Ma'am, myself too, I mean, can I

42:27

say that to say? You know, you

42:29

got family, friends, you

42:32

have, you

42:34

know, people who try to set people up. You

42:36

know, you have all those those kind of

42:38

parts of

42:38

it.

42:39

And they're like, well, I know what you're making, you know,

42:41

or, you know, I know you can

42:43

pay me because you

42:44

know, I know You know, and -- Yeah. -- it's that

42:47

side of it that that I get

42:49

to deal with as well. We simplify the

42:51

athlete Prim athlete experience as

42:53

fame, money, resources,

42:56

opportunity, playing

42:58

a game. Who doesn't love that?

43:01

But there's a lot of complexities that

43:03

come with that this lifestyle. And

43:06

a lot of it has to do with your

43:09

information. Your financial information is out

43:11

there. And now we have people coming out of

43:13

the woodwork and reaching out to

43:15

you. Because they know what

43:17

you have. Mhmm. And that must be that

43:20

must be disconcerting and confusing because you don't

43:22

know who you can trust and And overall,

43:24

right. Especially if you're an

43:26

introvert. Yeah.

43:27

And, you know, you're dealing with, you

43:30

know, financial advisers who take advantage.

43:33

Agents who take advantage, you know,

43:36

family and friends who expect

43:38

you to input the bill for everything, you

43:42

know, women. You

43:45

know, you start to go down the list, you know, potential

43:48

people trying to get you invest in things.

43:51

And, yeah, it's just it's tough

43:53

to navigate, especially as as a young

43:55

guy who, you know, is coming

43:57

into a situation where you probably didn't have much

43:59

money. And your your parents probably

44:01

aren't, you know, incredibly

44:04

financially literate. Yeah. I mean, to navigate

44:06

that is is really of of many

44:08

many guys who, you know, making good money,

44:10

but I live in check

44:12

to check. You know, it's tough to go

44:14

from you know, you're making 235,

44:17

ten, fifteen million dollars a year

44:19

to nothing and, you know, you throw

44:21

in, you know,

44:24

a child or, you know, a baby mom,

44:27

you throw in a divorce, you throw

44:29

in, you know, family friends, couple of

44:31

bad -- Mhmm. -- major fees, couple of bad investments.

44:35

You know,

44:37

it TNC happen. And

44:38

that happens all the time. happens all the time,

44:41

but people don't understand that because they

44:43

haven't lived it you know, I mean,

44:45

you look at lottery winners. Oh,

44:47

yeah.

44:48

A large majority of them go broke

44:50

within the first few years.

44:51

They blow through it and, like, yeah. And,

44:54

you know, nobody ever says, look

44:56

at those dog lottery winners. You know, us look at

44:58

the dumb athletes. You know, how could they

45:00

how could they blow that money? It's

45:02

just a lack of financial literacy. And,

45:04

you know, we don't learn that in school.

45:07

You know, we learn, you know,

45:10

pythagorean theorem and acute

45:12

angles, you know, and like stuff that

45:14

has has no impact on my everyday

45:17

life, but we don't learn anything about

45:19

taxes or investing or

45:22

budgeting or you asked

45:23

that? For relationships. For relationships

45:25

or, you

45:26

know, Any any of

45:27

that? Two, three of the most important things

45:30

to be able to highly function in life, and yet

45:32

we don't learn that in school. So

45:34

when you have all of this attention and your

45:36

stuff is out

45:37

there, and then the

45:39

wall just has to go up and

45:41

and it did because you said that you

45:43

you just hung out in your house all the

45:45

time. Yeah. It did. Because

45:47

you're kinda easy to spot

45:49

in a crowd.

45:50

Especially when I have my hair too. Yeah.

45:52

Got it. Maybe with the haircut, you might

45:54

lose a little bit now. But

45:56

yeah. I mean, you must have just wanted

45:58

to to hide Yeah.

46:00

And I did did for

46:03

a year. And then part of that too, so that

46:05

that same year, my my dad passed away. And

46:07

that added to me hiding

46:09

and to the difficulty of

46:12

of the season and, you know, feeling

46:14

guilty and and, you

46:16

know, not being here with

46:18

happy and all that

46:19

stuff. And so, you know, it's got all

46:21

that stuff combined, really made it

46:23

a difficult year.

46:25

Right. Because he was back here in the US,

46:29

but

46:29

it must've been hard because you're overseas.

46:31

Yes. It was.

46:32

It was. Did you was that a thought process

46:34

of this

46:37

must have happened for reason or or

46:39

maybe I shouldn't have gone overseas or

46:42

It was No. I mean, it

46:44

was you know what?

46:47

I TNC, obviously, I wish he was still here.

46:49

But you know, it's

46:52

a part of life and this is a part of the

46:54

the decisions that he you know, as

46:56

as a man. I felt guilty from

46:58

the perspective that you know, he got

47:00

car accident, but he had been drinking.

47:03

And that's the reason

47:05

I I never never drank. But

47:09

part of that was, you

47:11

know, had he not been drinking, maybe

47:13

just getting to that accident? But

47:16

my guilt came from the fact that after the accident

47:18

and it was a pretty rough accident, I

47:21

didn't come home to see

47:23

him. He had surgery and he was, you know,

47:25

on the road to recovery. So I thought,

47:27

okay. Great. I'll, you know, I'll get home

47:29

to see him when, you know, when my season's over.

47:32

And then pneumonia said he had

47:35

to be passed. And so then that was

47:37

really, really rough to

47:39

deal with.

47:43

And so you had that with the stress

47:45

of a season and all the other

47:47

things that, you know, you had going on. And,

47:49

you know, I think as athletes, people

47:52

expect us to be superheroes and just

47:54

play through it because we're getting paid a lot

47:56

of

47:56

money, but it's not

47:58

the case. That was rough.

48:01

How long did it take you to

48:04

get through that? I mean, what happened in the the

48:06

next upcoming? Because it sounds like it

48:08

sounds like, you know, listening to as I'm

48:10

putting together your your

48:12

journey, that sounds like it was probably one

48:15

of the toughest moments in your

48:17

life. Yeah. It was.

48:20

And that

48:22

then created, like, a a little

48:24

bit of a sad downward spiral.

48:27

It's probably too strong one time, but

48:30

there was definitely a little bit of a

48:32

a spiral. After that happened,

48:34

I came home for the funeral, spent some time here

48:37

and then went back, you know, and finished

48:39

the season. I came home, that

48:41

year, like I I mentioned before, was not

48:43

a great year for me. From a basketball

48:45

perspective, I came home, I, like,

48:49

didn't tell anybody where I lived. You

48:51

know, I I kinda stayed away from

48:54

everybody really and just kinda

48:56

lived in the gym. And, you

48:58

know, was training hard and was really

49:00

kinda locked in on that, got

49:02

over there, and had

49:04

a much better year. But I was also

49:09

gonna be angry all the time. And

49:11

I was, like, cussing up my

49:13

coaches, just on

49:16

edge a lot. Mhmm. And that's not really

49:18

my personality, you

49:20

know. And that was kinda, I think, just

49:22

to the manifestations of everything

49:24

that have been happening, you know,

49:26

through that year, I also or

49:29

right after my dad passed, I went on, like,

49:32

a a spending spree hours of this mentality

49:34

that, like, you know, you can't take it with you.

49:36

You know, life can be going and invested. On

49:38

that end of my life, I was doing that on the

49:40

other end. I was, you know,

49:43

angry and just coping, you know,

49:45

the best I could. Following that, I

49:47

was like, I need to get back home. So

49:50

the year finished, I

49:52

ended up signing a five year deal with

49:54

with Phoenix Suns. And

49:57

was really excited about the chance to kinda

49:59

be be home, be close to the family, all

50:01

that stuff. And

50:04

then you know, Phoenix ended up

50:06

being probably like the

50:09

the worst part of my career. The

50:11

worst part of my career, you know. And I

50:13

say that laughing,

50:16

but it it really

50:18

I mean, that that was the demise

50:20

of my NBA career. And

50:23

how so?

50:25

I think, you know, I went into situation anticipating

50:29

fitting in better to a team than it

50:31

I did. You know,

50:34

I I took the

50:36

opportunity and the contract and all that stuff.

50:38

And I was like, okay, great. I'm I'm home for five

50:40

years. I got this. This is this. You

50:42

know, and and I went went to a team

50:45

that, like, I just didn't fit on very well

50:47

Prim a playing perspective. Like, the the team

50:49

as a as a whole was great. The guys were great.

50:51

You know, you have some hall of fame guys, but

50:54

also do some quality genuine boots.

50:57

But yeah. I mean, like, I've always

50:59

my my entire career. I was a slasher. I was,

51:02

you know, I get into the lane. I get fast breaks.

51:04

You know, I do that. And then I

51:07

get into a team where it's like, alright. Cool.

51:09

We will need you to sit in the corner. I didn't do

51:11

that very well. Then it just kinda warm

51:13

on me. And warm and warm me my confidence,

51:16

you know, continue to deteriorate. And

51:19

that was the first time my career I didn't play

51:21

didn't play much. Like, Grant

51:23

and I was I was kinda backing up Grant

51:25

Hill. Mhmm. He was an amazing player.

51:28

And former or or Melo Duke

51:30

Yeah. I took a blue devil. But,

51:33

you know, I wasn't just in a situation where

51:35

it's the first time I didn't play. And

51:38

I took her hard. And I just

51:41

I felt like I could just never really get

51:43

back over the hump. Mentally

51:46

being there. And, you know,

51:48

it was just a a rough rough two years

51:50

for

51:51

me. And, you know, you think about

51:53

Everything.

51:54

You know, everything that I kinda had going

51:57

on. And then this happens.

52:00

And, yeah, just I

52:02

just couldn't recover.

52:04

Yeah. I mean, that's that's a lot because it's

52:07

you

52:07

know, you have the Atlanta situation, you

52:10

feel a little slight at there, a little burns,

52:12

you're like, okay. So I'm gonna go overseas, and

52:14

then you've got the pressure, and then you

52:16

have the personal situation happen,

52:18

and then maybe, you know,

52:20

you decide to come back to America partially

52:23

because of that. And then that's

52:25

a tough basketball situation. I

52:28

don't know how did you how did you

52:29

handle? How did you recover from it?

52:32

Have you recovered from it? Yeah. I

52:34

mean, like so I was at two years. And

52:37

then they ended up administering me.

52:40

And then I signed a

52:42

deal that next year in in Brooklyn.

52:45

By that point, mentally, I was gone.

52:48

Like, I just I mean, my

52:50

confidence was shot. You know, no matter how I

52:52

tried every trick in the book. And

52:54

by that time, And this is the

52:56

first time when we were sharing this, but I

52:58

really, really developed some

53:00

some strong anxiety issues specifically

53:03

social anxiety. And so

53:05

even being on the court for me was a

53:07

trigger. It was a major trigger, actually. You

53:11

know, and I I just I just really struggle

53:13

with that. And I I fought

53:15

the medication route. I really wanted

53:17

to find a way to, like, you know, deal with it

53:19

naturally and kinda get through it. You

53:22

know, I'm really there's a sign on. I'm really happy

53:24

that guys are coming to speak out about mental

53:26

health in the league right now. I mean, I don't care when love

53:28

is doing it. DeMarco Rosen is

53:30

doing, you know, few other guys. But

53:33

you know, at that time, I really, really

53:35

wish I would have had, you know,

53:37

someone to talk to or an outlet about

53:40

that. And not

53:42

not because I was, you know, probably still being

53:44

the NBA, but more so because

53:46

I needed help, you know. And and

53:48

then as as an athlete

53:51

as, you know, kinda like the head of my household,

53:53

like, where do I go for help? You

53:55

know? People

53:58

don't still fully

54:00

comprehend the difficulty

54:02

of dealing with mental health. You know,

54:05

and it's still kind of viewed as like, alright.

54:07

This is don't be depressed or

54:10

don't be anxious. Like, why is you know, Anybody

54:13

who's dealt with it and all of us, you know,

54:15

is as easy as ever done. After

54:18

Brooklyn ended up going

54:20

back to Stanford. So I said,

54:22

you know what? I'm gonna finish my degree. You

54:25

know, if if this is it, it's

54:27

been a good run. You know, it hasn't

54:29

it didn't finish the way would like. I

54:31

would have liked it to finish, but, you

54:33

know, I'll

54:36

be alright. Right? I'll I'll make make my

54:38

way. So I went back to

54:40

Stanford and went to finish my degree in

54:43

that time. And it's amazing, by

54:45

the

54:45

way, when you go back to school, like, much better

54:47

you are at it. I love you.

54:50

I care so much more and you're

54:52

able to process it differently.

54:55

It was it was you know, I I took,

54:57

like, a bare minimum of eight -- eighty. --

54:59

underground. Like, I was taking, like, twenty units

55:01

in the system in a quarter, like, I was

55:03

questioning. But anyway, so

55:06

finished my degree. But in that time,

55:08

I was I was sleeping

55:10

with the team. And I was, like, I could still

55:12

play, man. All the crap that kinda

55:14

went with, you know, the business out of basketball

55:16

for me over the last few years has gone

55:18

out the window. I was just in the gym, open with

55:21

know, some young guys and and was enjoying

55:23

it after that I went to Australia. And

55:26

so that's that's That was that was the transition.

55:28

It was, like, It was like, you know, alright,

55:30

I'm gonna stop. I'm gonna get my degree, you

55:33

know, kinda focusing on this next phase of

55:35

my

55:35

life. And then being in the gym again

55:37

with the the Stanford team,

55:40

it restarted?

55:40

It restarted the the love of the game. I

55:42

wanna go back and

55:45

and talk about what you shared, and thank you

55:47

for for sharing that. And I think you know

55:50

when we were talking about the essence

55:52

of the show. And and even though the

55:55

premise of my shows is talking about live transition.

55:58

The thing that I've learned in talking to other

56:00

psychologists and sports psychologists, and I think

56:02

it's a portrait for everybody to know is that

56:04

everybody thinks that mental health has to do with

56:07

mental disorders, and illnesses,

56:10

and psychosis, and it's not. It's

56:12

it's happiness and well-being

56:15

and high performing and functioning, and

56:17

also on the other end of the spectrum.

56:19

Mhmm. And we all live on one

56:21

place of the spectrum. And we all go up and down.

56:24

So, like, that's a hundred percent

56:26

my my message right

56:28

now. So

56:31

with the with social anxiety, and

56:34

now that you have the opportunity to

56:37

to share with people about what that

56:39

is. So how does it manifest

56:41

itself? And what are some of the symptoms?

56:44

Crippling. I mean, it'd be quite

56:46

frank blunt about it. You know,

56:48

I I really remember moments

56:51

where, you know, I'd be in the game

56:53

on the court and you

56:55

know, I'd go to shoot a shot

56:57

and I was so I

57:00

mean, my body was just locked up or,

57:02

like I mean, I I can't remember how many

57:05

times the air balled a year. Like, it was just it

57:07

was, you know, I was so nervous

57:10

all the time. And I I felt like

57:13

the entire planet was, you know,

57:15

watching me that year ended up,

57:17

like, not shooting any free throws that entire

57:19

year. Because I was so nervous

57:21

about going to this retail

57:23

line and having everybody look at me.

57:25

The crippling nature of

57:28

of what I was dealing with you know,

57:30

obviously, was all mental. There may have been some physical,

57:32

you know, maybe some imbalances, you

57:34

know, my body. Yeah. I just I couldn't

57:37

shake it. I couldn't shake in. I

57:39

I tried and I tried and I tried seeing

57:41

different people here and

57:42

there. You know, I tried If

57:44

you go to psychologist, therapist.

57:46

Yeah. I did. I did. And

57:48

and nobody was able to help you. Really?

57:52

It made me think about how

57:55

strong and powerful my mind is.

57:57

That, like, I could I could create

57:59

this whole scenario, something

58:01

that I just at a really difficult time

58:03

shaking, you know, was then impacted my

58:06

my entire being, if you will. Did

58:08

somebody

58:08

tell you the difference between an

58:10

anxiety attack and disorder versus

58:13

social anxiety? I

58:15

just, like, do research. looked it up online

58:17

and and I mean, I had anxiety attacks.

58:21

You know, and and I dealt with that,

58:23

you know, the best I could.

58:25

But I was always nervous about medicating

58:28

just because I feel like you know, you get dependent

58:31

on that and then

58:33

then what? You know? So III

58:35

tried to to manage you

58:38

know, and try to kinda get through it. At

58:40

the end of the day, like, from a basketball perspective,

58:42

it didn't really work. But, you know,

58:45

I feel like I've come through it and and better

58:47

for it now versus,

58:50

you know, if I would have been, you know, taking pills

58:52

as as way to to get through

58:54

it. So

58:56

Just several days ago, a

58:58

player revealed for the first time to

59:00

publicly that that he tell with anxiety

59:03

attacks as well while while he was playing. Mhmm.

59:06

And it's a it's really big issue. I just

59:08

visited with doctor Faram Dr.

59:10

William Barton, who's the new mental health director

59:12

for the MEPA. And I told

59:15

I said, I don't want to be ignorant and say

59:17

that any sport deals

59:20

with different pressures or there's

59:22

certain symptoms or situations

59:25

that are characters like of each sport. But it seems

59:27

like for some reason, basketball,

59:30

NBA players. There's just a lot

59:32

of issues

59:34

with anxiety. I

59:37

and I said, I don't know why,

59:39

and I asked him if if he in his

59:41

research, if he has noticed any

59:43

differences, but he said not necessarily,

59:46

but he certainly said that culture,

59:50

structure,

59:52

that all impacts everything. Do

59:55

you is there something about basketball

59:58

and the nature, the traveling, the

1:00:01

the number of games, longer

1:00:03

season --

1:00:04

Mhmm. -- versus any

1:00:06

other sport. The

1:00:08

culture of of the league

1:00:10

is not the culprit. Let's say

1:00:12

if we're in for example, if you're a football player,

1:00:15

you know, while everybody is watching

1:00:17

it, you also still have

1:00:19

a helmet that, you know And

1:00:22

turn on and turn on their teammates out there. Right.

1:00:24

And, you know, best of what you have, you know, for the guys.

1:00:26

But culturally, I don't think it's easier. I think

1:00:28

it's just the pressure of performance

1:00:32

financial component of it. I think the

1:00:34

media and fans, I

1:00:37

would venture to say they're probably most

1:00:40

of the guys that deal with it are also probably

1:00:43

a bit more analytical -- Yes. --

1:00:46

you know, maybe a little,

1:00:49

yeah, more cerebral, maybe little more introverted,

1:00:52

you know, who, you know, just

1:00:54

didn't think of us of, you

1:00:55

know, and it just it becomes a,

1:00:58

you know, a snowball effect where, you

1:01:00

know, they're then thinking about everything

1:01:03

and the wrong things and they

1:01:05

can't shake it. These discussions no

1:01:08

one has answers to, but they're important

1:01:10

discussions to have we can become

1:01:12

more understanding and compassionate, and

1:01:15

also we can do something about it. Mhmm. If

1:01:17

Lamar comes out and then

1:01:19

Kevin Love, they're there's

1:01:22

slight differences. You know, Kevin Love

1:01:24

TNC about his his panic attacks during

1:01:27

the post season and Marjorie Rosen talked

1:01:29

about his depression. And then we had

1:01:31

the situation with Royce White. And

1:01:33

then an NBA player that admitted

1:01:35

to having an anxiety

1:01:37

attack. But he didn't end up getting

1:01:39

help either. Why not? Well,

1:01:42

you know, part of it is is

1:01:46

who do you go to? You

1:01:47

know, you you go and and and this is this

1:01:50

kinda gets back into the nature of

1:01:52

professional sports. If you go to

1:01:54

your team and say, hey, I'm dealing with something.

1:01:57

I really need some help. They

1:02:00

may help you, they may not. But then

1:02:02

they're gonna utilize that against you when it's

1:02:04

contract time. You can't go

1:02:06

there. You

1:02:07

know, most of the time, you know, you probably

1:02:09

can't go to family for it because not

1:02:11

everybody's family understands

1:02:13

the nature of of mental health and, you know

1:02:15

And

1:02:16

also,

1:02:16

they might be a part of the problem. And they might

1:02:18

be. Right. And so you

1:02:20

know, you could potentially go to your

1:02:23

agent. Maybe, you

1:02:25

know, maybe they can help. But, you

1:02:27

know, there aren't a ton of people that you can reach

1:02:29

out to now, you know, you can try and find yourself.

1:02:33

You know, maybe that's the way to go, but then you're,

1:02:36

you know, you're trying to find a needle in

1:02:38

the haystack and, you know, figure out who

1:02:40

who can help you through this issue. You

1:02:44

know? So I think it's amazing

1:02:46

that the NBA has now implemented this

1:02:48

program. You know, it gives guys a safe

1:02:50

place to go. You know, I

1:02:52

could help. I really, really wish he was around

1:02:54

when I was I was in a league. It's something that

1:02:56

I think is more and more guys like Kevin

1:02:58

and Demar, you know, come and speak

1:03:00

about come out and speak about. I

1:03:02

know you start to see that you know, there are guys

1:03:05

that are at the highest level they deal with it. You

1:03:07

know? So maybe it is more comfortable to,

1:03:09

you know, to for for people to come out and

1:03:11

and have those discussions. But you

1:03:14

know, until, you know,

1:03:17

athletes, specifically, younger athletes

1:03:19

can find that place of

1:03:22

of comfort and and trust,

1:03:25

you know, it'll still be a a major issue.

1:03:28

Mhmm. mean, and I my assumption is

1:03:30

that you know, if you went to your

1:03:32

coach about it, you know,

1:03:34

it'd probably just tell you to

1:03:36

stop being a punk and toughen up and

1:03:39

mean, you know, that's that's how that's how

1:03:41

goes. So yeah.

1:03:44

I mean, it's it's a It's

1:03:46

a space, but it's also, you know, space that

1:03:48

I think there's lot of room for improvement. And,

1:03:52

you know, hopefully, more and more people

1:03:54

come out.

1:03:55

Speak about it and and are able to, you know,

1:03:57

make that change. Where are you

1:04:00

with in terms of experiencing

1:04:02

any more attacks? Did it just happen a couple of

1:04:04

times? And Yeah. Something that I think you'd you'd

1:04:06

deal with, you know, over

1:04:08

the course of your life. I'm I'm a lot better

1:04:11

now. And obviously

1:04:13

not playing helps, but

1:04:16

that wasn't the the the cause

1:04:18

for it to to, you know, kind of dissipated

1:04:20

as it has. But it's

1:04:22

learning more about myself, learning what triggers

1:04:24

it, learning how I can, you know,

1:04:26

try and implement things to, you

1:04:29

know, if

1:04:31

not remove, I guess, minimalize,

1:04:34

you know, those thoughts. And

1:04:36

also just trying to to take myself too seriously.

1:04:39

You know, we get caught up in trying to be

1:04:41

perfect a lot. Mhmm. And,

1:04:44

you know, social media has definitely

1:04:46

impacted that in a negative

1:04:48

way. You know, everybody on social media

1:04:50

is living their best life. Yeah.

1:04:52

And it's like Hashtag less.

1:04:55

Are you really? Yeah. Probably

1:04:57

not. But, you know,

1:05:00

kinda sifting through all the junk and just

1:05:02

kinda focusing on, like, what really matters

1:05:04

family, friends, you know, you

1:05:07

know what you're passionate about. First trigger is,

1:05:09

like, perfectly speaking. Mhmm. You know, so

1:05:11

being, like, being on a stage like

1:05:15

that. It was really tough

1:05:18

for me. And that's a tough thing for

1:05:20

a lot of people, but well, that carried over

1:05:22

from me out to the court. So, like, when I was, like, the

1:05:24

center of attention to an extent, you know,

1:05:26

you know, you just

1:05:28

just get little tense or whatever. So I

1:05:30

had to go into games specifically

1:05:32

when I was in Australia and and also

1:05:34

Japan. Just making sure

1:05:36

that I understood, like, winter

1:05:39

moves, good or bad, I'm

1:05:41

still me. I still have a family that loves

1:05:43

me. You know? And

1:05:45

and I started actually before every

1:05:47

game. I started writing down

1:05:50

the things that I was thankful for and,

1:05:54

you know, my goals for the game, ninety

1:05:57

nine percent of the time and nothing to do with basketball.

1:06:00

It was just, you know, about just being in the moment

1:06:03

and enjoying, you know, the fact

1:06:05

that I'm able to do this still. I wanna

1:06:07

do it at a high level. You

1:06:09

know, and just trying to stay healthy through it

1:06:11

all and and all that. So at the end of the day,

1:06:13

you know,

1:06:16

sounds a bit morbid, but nobody's gonna

1:06:18

survive in any way. So watch this. You know,

1:06:20

like, I mean, when you when you

1:06:22

kind of break it down,

1:06:24

you know, just enjoy it. Yeah.

1:06:27

So I feel like that's a constant Indian coming out.

1:06:30

It's like it's like that's

1:06:33

that's a very direct way of looking

1:06:36

at things and very rational.

1:06:38

But thank you for sharing --

1:06:40

Yeah. --

1:06:41

all of that. What are you doing these

1:06:43

days? What am I

1:06:45

doing? I've been heavily involved

1:06:47

in, you know, kind of investing at a bunch of

1:06:49

different things over the years. And I've

1:06:51

kind of narrowed that focus down on the real estate

1:06:53

myself and my former

1:06:56

college teammate and roommate that

1:06:58

was Justin Davis. Who founded a company

1:07:00

called Laspire. The Laspire

1:07:02

Group. What we've done, what we're trying

1:07:04

to do is to go into

1:07:06

communities of color, and

1:07:09

under resource communities, if you will, and

1:07:12

impact change. So doing that

1:07:14

through real estate, investing in development,

1:07:17

and, you know, you hear the term gentrification a

1:07:19

lot these days. And

1:07:21

so we wanna make sure that we're able to go into

1:07:23

these communities and empower the

1:07:26

residents and the community stakeholders to

1:07:29

be able to take advantage of better

1:07:32

opportunities, better facilities, better housing.

1:07:35

You know, and just uplift those communities. So,

1:07:38

mister, my passion

1:07:40

and my focus for the last year or so --

1:07:42

Mhmm. -- and That's

1:07:45

all I was just kinda coming about now. I

1:07:47

mean, you're gonna be fine. You're you're a

1:07:49

smart smart guy. You

1:07:52

got your degree.

1:07:54

You're fairly smart. Went to

1:07:56

Stanford.

1:07:57

Just

1:07:58

so I'm smart sometimes. Yeah. You're gonna

1:08:00

be you're gonna be okay. Did you get a chance

1:08:02

to

1:08:05

to close it out yourself? Did you get

1:08:07

a chance to -- What? -- to April. was

1:08:09

in Japan. Okay. So I played this

1:08:11

this year in Japan.

1:08:13

And,

1:08:14

yeah, it was the last game in the season, and I

1:08:17

was just, like, Let

1:08:19

me back up. Yeah. Because I had

1:08:21

another last game that I thought was

1:08:23

my last game, which was

1:08:25

last year. So there was a there's a team

1:08:28

that came over from Israel and they play

1:08:30

in NBA

1:08:30

games. Mhmm. You know, the preseason. And

1:08:33

so I

1:08:34

was like, you know what? If I'm done this

1:08:36

year, I wanna go out,

1:08:38

like, on an NBA court. So I started

1:08:40

my career, in my pro career, I'm gonna finish

1:08:42

it up. And so we

1:08:45

went out and we played the we played

1:08:47

in Sacramento Kings and had

1:08:49

a great

1:08:49

game. Like like I was carefree.

1:08:51

I didn't, you know, care about anything. Did anybody

1:08:54

know it was her last game? Like, did you talk

1:08:56

about it. Did you of course,

1:08:58

with your

1:08:58

personality, you're not gonna announce it. Yeah.

1:09:00

Right?

1:09:01

So really It was like my last two, but

1:09:03

that was the the first of two. So

1:09:05

I had, like, eighteen and seven and, like,

1:09:08

you know, authentic as these young guys who,

1:09:10

you know and I was, like, this

1:09:12

is a great way to go out. Right.

1:09:15

My children so bad.

1:09:18

Yeah. So I did that.

1:09:21

And then the next thing I'm trying to clarify is

1:09:23

ended up whatever reason the coach ended

1:09:25

up playing us less. He wanted to play his

1:09:27

team would be more of that game. But

1:09:29

I felt really good about just walking away

1:09:32

like that, you know, knowing that I could still play

1:09:34

at that level if given the opportunity,

1:09:36

but also really feeling good about

1:09:39

having gone through when I went through, you know,

1:09:41

that last portion of my MB career, and

1:09:43

I go out there and, like, you

1:09:44

know, have a good game. It

1:09:46

just was a great feeling. Yeah.

1:09:49

And then And then

1:09:51

you came back. And then I came back. After that,

1:09:53

you know, I had a pretty good relationship with my coach

1:09:55

over in Japan. And they

1:09:57

were struggling a bit. And

1:09:59

he said, Josh, he actually didn't

1:10:01

offer the contract to me. He he asked

1:10:03

me about some other players. Okay. And

1:10:07

I was like, it's a nice

1:10:08

contract. It was

1:10:10

a fake.

1:10:11

And he got such stop. Damn, man. I

1:10:13

guess. Okay. I get into it. And so what

1:10:15

I went I went over to Japan. I played

1:10:18

there this last year. And

1:10:20

then my last game was, you

1:10:22

know, April end of April. And

1:10:25

I had a really good game. And once

1:10:27

again, I just I let go and play freely

1:10:29

in.

1:10:31

Knew that it was gonna read my last last

1:10:33

game. So So how does it feel?

1:10:36

It was good. Because I remember several

1:10:38

years ago, it it was some sort of

1:10:40

documentary. And I think at that point,

1:10:43

you said, I'm not

1:10:45

happy with how things

1:10:47

ended. I was still kind of fresh

1:10:49

off of the NBA since

1:10:51

then. I've grown a lot.

1:10:53

I've learned lot about myself. I have,

1:10:55

you know, played in some really cool

1:10:57

areas. I met some great people in

1:10:59

Australia. Experience

1:11:02

was amazing. Going away and meeting people.

1:11:04

I have some lifelong

1:11:06

friends, you know, from that experience. Yeah.

1:11:08

I mean, I'm good. If I

1:11:10

may, suggest something, and

1:11:13

this is only for you to do with

1:11:15

yourself, but it's something that my therapist

1:11:18

often tells me to do anytime

1:11:21

a chapter closes, but to

1:11:23

write a letter to

1:11:25

basketball. Just

1:11:29

talking about what it meant

1:11:31

to you, where it took you,

1:11:34

and, like, say, you're good bias

1:11:36

to it. I

1:11:38

get so emotional. Like, even just saying

1:11:41

it because it's such a it doesn't

1:11:43

matter what it

1:11:44

is. Whether it's a

1:11:46

company, a person, an

1:11:49

experience. It's hard

1:11:51

to sometimes let go. It's hard like, get closure,

1:11:53

because closure. So you wanna hold

1:11:55

on and you wanna, like,

1:11:58

have control over, you know. Enclosure

1:12:01

is never

1:12:03

it never goes the way we want it hardly

1:12:06

ever does, you know.

1:12:07

I'll try that.

1:12:08

Because it's that's what it is though. Right? It's kind

1:12:10

of a relationship. Yeah. For

1:12:14

most of my life. So yeah. Yeah.

1:12:16

I mean, since I was, like, seven.

1:12:19

So she was almost thirty years.

1:12:22

As we close this out, often

1:12:25

ask athletes what kind of advice

1:12:27

do they have for others out there

1:12:30

in terms of we're making a transition away

1:12:32

from basketball. You can answer

1:12:34

that. Or I would

1:12:36

pose what do you want people to

1:12:38

know about Josh. Sure, Chris.

1:12:43

Nothing. No. They

1:12:45

might so give it to you, the younger guys. Or

1:12:47

guys just going through transition would be

1:12:49

just not early. You're gonna fail at some things,

1:12:52

so fail fast and, you know,

1:12:54

fall forward into the next one. You

1:12:57

know, try a bunch of different different

1:13:00

things. You know, I I tried to venture capital

1:13:02

thing for a bit. I tried, you know, I've

1:13:04

tried real estate, I've tried I thought

1:13:06

about franchising. I've tried all,

1:13:09

you know, different types of investing and

1:13:11

things that I wanted to do. I never

1:13:13

tried coaching, which I don't think I'd be very good

1:13:15

at. But Try everything. Latch

1:13:17

on to a few mentors. Mentors

1:13:20

that will push you. Step outside

1:13:22

of your your comfort zone. You know,

1:13:24

we we get kinda caught

1:13:27

up in in dealing with only other

1:13:29

athletes or basketball players, you know,

1:13:31

get to know people outside of your space. And

1:13:36

embrace that is gonna end. You

1:13:38

know, it's just a matter of when, you

1:13:40

know, and and try and figure out you

1:13:42

know, kinda how to get

1:13:45

the ground running when it does.

1:13:47

I'm actually an incredibly goofy person.

1:13:49

I'm only that way around people that you

1:13:51

know, trust and feel good about and

1:13:54

keep my life private, which it is important. Mhmm.

1:13:56

But, you know, now as I step into this

1:13:58

next phase, you know, I'm

1:14:00

actually, like, talking about doing some marketing

1:14:02

and branding and, you know, creating

1:14:05

content, like, said that I

1:14:07

would never have done before, but I

1:14:09

I feel like it's important that people just get

1:14:11

to see me for who I am and and

1:14:14

just get to know me as more than, you

1:14:16

know, the guy with the afro who, you know,

1:14:18

had the the jump shot that they made fun of all

1:14:20

the time. Like, you know, there

1:14:23

I hear that all the time. Like, oh, you got this shot,

1:14:25

Mary Anne. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I I've heard it

1:14:27

before. Okay. Hey. We don't need to hear

1:14:29

your recycled joke. Is is stretch. I'm

1:14:31

just gonna kinda continue let that that

1:14:33

go where it goes, you know, and let people, you

1:14:36

know, get an understanding for whoever they am and what

1:14:38

I'm about. So maybe

1:14:41

this is a bad question. Why did you decide

1:14:43

to -- Why does

1:14:44

yeah. -- why did you decide to do this?

1:14:47

I'm trying to to change.

1:14:49

I'm trying to change how I approach things. I'm

1:14:51

trying to be more open to

1:14:53

things like this, you know, and and

1:14:57

you know, I don't know if my story

1:14:59

will help anybody. But if it

1:15:01

does, that would be amazing. And maybe I'm

1:15:03

able to connect with people and try and help them in

1:15:05

other avenues with, you know, how I

1:15:07

deal with mental health or real

1:15:09

estate or, you know, professional

1:15:12

sports or whatever it may be. Yeah. I'm

1:15:14

just trying to be more open to opportunities

1:15:16

and and tell my story.

1:15:20

He did today.

1:15:21

Clearly, I don't talk too

1:15:23

much. I'm sorry

1:15:25

I kept you here. That's good. That's good. But it was

1:15:27

so good because I was, you have such an interesting

1:15:30

story. I feel like people

1:15:32

know bits and pieces of you. They don't know all of

1:15:34

you. And I feel like It doesn't

1:15:36

teach you. So

1:15:37

Yeah. TNC you for coming on the show,

1:15:39

Josh. It's Sherry. Thanks for having me.

1:15:44

A big warm, thank you to gosh

1:15:47

for, as he said, being more open

1:15:49

to things like this and sharing not only his

1:15:51

story, but the ups and downs

1:15:53

he faced wild playing basketball. The

1:15:56

fact that he said, he usually doesn't talk this much.

1:15:58

I hope it means I did an okay job in

1:16:01

making him feel comfortable enough to

1:16:03

share his journey. Thanks

1:16:05

for listening to the next chapter. Feel free

1:16:07

to let me know what you took away from

1:16:10

today's conversation. You can find me on

1:16:12

Twitter and Instagram at Prim

1:16:14

underscore sarepepapapap. Really

1:16:25

hope you enjoyed today's best of episodes.

1:16:27

Stay tuned as we prepare for season

1:16:30

three of the next chapter can hardly

1:16:32

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1:16:34

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more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit

1:17:09

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Who do we become when we travel?

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