0:08

Welcome to the No Film

0:10

School Podcast. Again, Gigi here,

0:13

continuing our coverage from the

0:15

ground at Sundance. And

0:17

today we are speaking

0:19

with director Jasmine Jones

0:21

and investigator slash associate producer

0:24

Olivia Michaela Ross, this

0:26

dynamic duo behind the new

0:29

neon documentary Seeking Mavis Beacon,

0:31

which premiered at Sundance opening

0:33

weekend and will be coming

0:35

to theaters soon. The film

0:38

follows both Jasmine

0:40

and Olivia, these e-girl investigators

0:43

on this search for Mavis

0:45

Beacon or the model who

0:47

is based off of the

0:50

famous influential teaching

0:53

digital character Mavis

0:55

Beacon from Mavis Beacon teaches

0:57

typing. You know, the

1:00

story behind it and sort of the hook of

1:02

this is that the woman who

1:04

they based the model off

1:06

of is a Haitian woman who modeled before

1:09

disappearing from the public eye and was

1:12

only paid $500 for the

1:14

work where her image and likeness

1:16

went on to help the company

1:18

sell for millions and millions of

1:21

dollars. So it's a fascinating and

1:23

very relevant documentary that not only

1:25

talks about sort of looking

1:27

at how Silicon Valley has sort of

1:29

infiltrated these specific spaces. It's a very

1:32

Bay Area based story, which I love to see

1:34

it being somebody who comes from the East Bay.

1:37

But on top of that, it also is very

1:39

of the moment in terms of how the internet

1:41

plays into our lives and how it can be

1:43

something that's positive and how

1:46

we are choosing the stories

1:48

we tell and sort of what

1:50

is right around that. So if you like

1:53

this episode, I definitely recommend listening to our

1:55

interview with the team of subject and I

1:57

also am excited to hear our listeners thought

2:00

On the transformative framework justice

2:02

that these two people used

2:04

to basically redefined how to

2:06

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By the life of the savvy,

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an ambitious Colombian businesswoman, Griselda Blanco

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the underworld, Griselda Now streaming only

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on Netflix. Welcome

3:52

to the Know Film School podcast Things you so

3:54

much for being here. Would you mind introducing yourself?

3:57

And the role you played in the film. Years

3:59

think you. Thank you so much for having us. My

4:01

name is Jasmine Jones. I'm the director of the

4:03

film and also an investigator in

4:05

the film. And I'm

4:08

Olivia Mikayla Ross. I'm

4:11

co-investigator and associate producer.

4:14

So you both are very much part of

4:16

the film. We are like on this journey

4:18

with you. Before we get into the making

4:20

of the film itself, how did you two

4:22

find each other? Yeah, so

4:25

it was like, I don't know, June

4:27

3rd. I just graduated high school. I

4:30

was on the plane to Minneapolis and

4:32

met Jas and their

4:34

art collective, like social

4:36

organizing collective Bufu, who

4:39

were presenting at IO Festival, which

4:41

is like an art and technology

4:43

conference, but it happens, it's still happening,

4:45

in Minneapolis every year. And it was at Walker

4:47

Art Center. And I like

4:50

played musical chairs with the other student volunteers

4:52

so that I could be in this presentation

4:54

because I was just very inspired by just

4:58

like the kind of like specific

5:00

ethics around community organizing

5:02

as they related to also bringing in

5:04

art and technology as tools for those

5:06

things. And I was

5:08

also just like very amazed after exiting

5:10

like a very competitive high school environment

5:12

to see people who were seeking like

5:14

critically about like radical education and like

5:17

what's possible in that regard.

5:19

And so, yeah, there was

5:22

some, summer

5:25

2019, there was the With You, For You school, a

5:30

decentralized school, where like different

5:32

people from the community were like teaching classes

5:35

on like love and like

5:37

environment and the body and

5:39

like just different subject

5:42

areas. And there was like future studies and

5:44

earth studies and all of these amazing things.

5:47

And I proposed and then taught a class on

5:49

my 18th of birthday about cyber feminism. And

5:52

it was through that class that, yeah,

5:54

I think it was the first time Jaz

5:56

and I encountered each other on the more like theoretical

5:58

level. See, it's always

6:01

so weird when Olivia describes our meeting

6:03

of her being a student volunteer, because

6:05

I don't know, that just feels like it's

6:08

a very humble beginning. But for me, I

6:10

was familiar with Olivia in the way that

6:12

there's cool people you follow online and you're

6:14

like, I want to be friends with them,

6:16

they're so smart. And then, yeah, I was

6:18

editing the class that Olivia had taught and

6:21

trying to make all of the amazing

6:23

things she said fit into two minutes.

6:26

And in that class on Olivia's 18th birthday,

6:28

she was talking about this concept of cyber

6:30

doulas, or someone who like stewards

6:32

a nonviolent relationship with technology. And I

6:34

was like, wait, this is the language I've been

6:37

searching for to describe me this beacon. And Olivia

6:39

also just like, in a really playful

6:41

way talked about like our relationship to

6:44

surveillance and data trauma and the fact

6:46

that these things that happen in the

6:48

digital realm have real life impacts. So

6:50

I DM Olivia and was like, Hey, can

6:52

we maybe collaborate work together? I don't know,

6:54

like, you're probably busy. And it

6:57

just so happened that this was during

6:59

the pandemic. And Olivia was very disenchanted

7:01

with doing school on zoom. So

7:04

yeah, I, I was the incoming

7:06

college class. I took a gap year after graduating.

7:09

And so I was the freshman class

7:11

of 2020 and had my first

7:13

ever college semester on zoom. And

7:16

after that, I was like, there is no way you can get me

7:18

to pay no percent on

7:20

this experience. I was very, suddenly had

7:22

so much free time. And there's this

7:24

very shiny, wonderful documentary to the maid.

7:26

I love that. It sounds like

7:29

there was this like mutual creative crush that

7:31

was happening. And you both were admiring each

7:33

other's work. And then already

7:35

we're interested in working together. It was just

7:37

a matter of somebody saying, should

7:39

we do this or let's talk? Totally. And

7:42

given that this was happening during the pandemic,

7:44

and I, you know, I'm bi-coastal, but when

7:47

shit hit the fan, I went to be with

7:49

my family in California. So really for, I don't

7:51

know if it was like the first six months,

7:53

Olivia and I, this collaboration really formed on the

7:55

screen and online. And we were like, well into

7:57

the work until we encountered each other in person.

8:00

So I do think though our relationship predates

8:03

the film, you're really watching our bond grow

8:05

and our connection grow throughout the

8:07

investigation. Can we talk

8:09

about those early exploratory conversations? The

8:11

idea of courting someone as a

8:13

creative partner is, you

8:17

are getting into a

8:19

long-term relationship

8:21

with somebody that has highs and lows,

8:23

and is really scary, and especially in

8:26

documentary, you don't know what is going to

8:28

unfold. You don't know what the story is.

8:31

How did you level, set, and

8:33

get on the same page to know what

8:35

you were working towards? I

8:38

think this is where the benefit of

8:40

not having a film career prior to

8:42

this, or really having made a film

8:45

work to our advantage, I think more than using

8:47

the language of the film industry, we were using

8:49

the language of collective organizing, and

8:51

those principles of care work, and checking in on

8:53

the person you're doing work with. Moving

8:56

at the speed of trust. Exactly. To

8:58

be honest, I don't know. We

9:01

didn't know how long this film would take, and

9:03

I'm very curious of how the conversation would have

9:05

gone if I said, hey, Olivia, do you want

9:08

to be in part of a documentary for the

9:10

next two years plus? Yeah. Indefinitely in perpetuity. So

9:13

I think that it was just

9:15

us both having this shared curiosity and being

9:17

like, we want to get to the bottom

9:19

of this question, and we weren't so caught

9:22

up on thinking about the results. We were

9:24

looking for supporters who could help us resource

9:27

the investigation, but it

9:29

really was driven by our curiosity

9:31

more than an ultimate goal. Yeah.

9:34

The setting of the film

9:37

is very interesting and very specific. Set

9:39

in the Bay Area, if you're trying

9:41

to put a label on a physical

9:43

location of where it's taking place, but of course you

9:45

go to many different

9:48

unexpected places when investigating.

9:51

But also this intangible,

9:54

the digital space, which is

9:58

such an interesting way to portray. that. So

10:01

I'd love to hear about like how you

10:03

built the world or infrastructure of the film,

10:05

if that makes sense. Totally. Yeah. So

10:07

I was working with an editing team. It

10:09

was myself, John Fine and Yulan Cohen. And

10:12

very quickly, I knew I'm coming from

10:14

like a video art background. I'm a

10:16

tumbler, girly. So like the idea of

10:19

playing with screens and stuff is something

10:21

that's just very comfortable for me. But

10:23

trying to figure out how to make that work in

10:25

the context of a feature film was the task for

10:28

us. So I love rules. I

10:30

love parameters. So much of the film is all

10:32

over the place. It's very dense. So

10:34

I felt like we needed a rule for

10:36

those desktops. And so the role we

10:38

created was that you need like in

10:41

the investigative footage, this fly on the

10:43

wall material, there needs to be like you

10:45

need to see the technological device that

10:47

kind of takes us into this portal

10:49

of the desktop space. It was

10:51

really interesting. This has always been just like a

10:54

language, a visual language that I use. But in

10:57

development, I became familiar with the term desktop

10:59

documentary. And I was like, Oh, yeah, that's,

11:01

that's what I've been doing here. And so,

11:03

you know, also looking at the genre of

11:05

true crime, I think there's a huge trend

11:07

of we'll just fail to be rolling in

11:10

post. And we're gonna do some after effects

11:12

with the news article where things are highlighted

11:14

and the depth of field is, and I really

11:16

didn't want to do that. So yeah, the

11:18

desktop became a really helpful tool for

11:20

us to get into some of the

11:23

research that we were doing, which is

11:25

very much influenced by Olivia and I

11:27

specific algorithms that we have trained to

11:29

be extremely black and feminist. And

11:32

yeah, and then making it feel like this

11:34

idea of desktop realism. So the windows

11:36

are appearing in a way, the tiktoks

11:38

are coming on the screen, all of that is happening in

11:41

a way that feels like you might be watching a screen

11:43

recording from the actual actual investigation.

11:46

I love that it was it was like, the

11:48

something that I had never seen or experienced before.

11:51

And another thing that I have

11:53

rarely seen or experienced before

11:56

is documentary film that so

11:59

powerfully turns the mirror on itself. And

12:02

we are in this time where the format is changing.

12:07

You bring up true crime, which specifically

12:10

crosses lines in terms

12:13

of ethics in many, many

12:15

ways. And we've had the team of

12:17

subject on the podcast before. We recently

12:19

had Gabriela Cowperthwaite who has

12:21

also showed, looked

12:23

at the ethics behind the stories

12:26

we're telling. And in the

12:28

film, one of the turning points

12:30

in the story is you two

12:32

having a conversation of, should we

12:34

be seeking out this woman? Renee,

12:37

does she want to be part of

12:40

this? And how does consent come

12:42

into the story that we're telling,

12:44

we're unfolding? And it was so

12:46

awesome that you opened,

12:48

opened up in that way. So I'd love to hear about

12:51

like, how did that sort of come to be part of

12:53

the film? Did you expect it to be part of the

12:55

narrative? And what were

12:57

you doing along the way to sort of like

12:59

engage in that conversation? I

13:02

think from the start, it was kind of always like

13:04

an initial question, mostly

13:06

because we were very aware

13:08

the desire to interview Renee was coming

13:10

from a

13:13

place of admiration and love and not

13:16

really from a place of, she

13:19

committed no crime. There is

13:21

no actual, there's no charge. The stakes

13:24

are not life and death. They're

13:26

just giving life. We

13:30

just really like you. So

13:32

there's an instance of the,

13:37

it's arguable in true crime whether people have a right to

13:39

talk to people, but in this case, we really don't

13:41

have the right necessarily to be in

13:43

her business. We're just like, no, we just

13:45

think you're cool. And so coming from that

13:47

perspective of already deep respect, there's also an

13:49

immediate knowledge of this is an autonomous person

13:52

who may very well want nothing to do

13:54

with us. And so Jasmine talks

13:56

a lot about like studying the same way that

13:58

we're kind of like engaging with. the

14:00

field of detective work and trying

14:02

to trouble that and figure out

14:04

what things do we like and want to use

14:06

and what things are actually a bit too carceral

14:09

and too weird for us to be dealing with.

14:12

We're also really inspired by

14:15

Zora Neale Hurston's anthropological legacy

14:17

and the idea of creating

14:19

offerings and being in

14:22

a relationship where we

14:24

understand the person who chooses to engage

14:26

with us as we are holding a

14:28

camera, a tool of capture in our

14:30

hands is giving us a gift and we should be

14:32

honored in that way. One

14:36

of the things you mentioned earlier

14:38

is using the language of community organizing

14:40

in filmmaking. What are things you hope

14:43

to see more in the

14:46

documentary space and people sort of leaning

14:48

into that? I think in

14:51

community organizing, you're thinking about the long-term

14:53

impacts of the things that you're doing.

14:55

In filmmaking, I think it's like you're

14:57

just thinking about releasing

14:59

this movie, but Olivia and I, in

15:01

addition to our relationship to Renee and

15:05

her family and that legacy and also our

15:07

relationship to the materials, right? So it's like

15:09

we are not just archivists on

15:11

camera. We actually now have a rich

15:14

folder of information that we've uncovered, a

15:16

lot of details that we weren't able

15:18

to include in the film and we

15:20

really do want that to be accessible

15:23

to anybody who's interested in it. So

15:25

that's one thing. Specifically

15:29

like this transformative justice

15:31

framework that you approached

15:33

and that you

15:36

that was from the very beginning just

15:38

like in the DNA of the work

15:40

that you were doing, how do

15:42

you think that the documentary

15:45

film space, especially

15:47

again in this time where true

15:49

crime and I recently heard the new terminology

15:52

of true con. Wow, yeah, that makes

15:54

sense to do that. And

15:56

it's just there feels like we're

16:00

moving in a direction that can be incredibly

16:02

toxic and damaging and hurtful of people

16:04

and there isn't consent there. So what

16:06

are some transformative justice frameworks that you

16:08

think emerging filmmakers can take into that

16:11

space? And Olivia, you touched upon it

16:13

about just acknowledging the fact that holding

16:15

a camera is a tool of capture.

16:17

And so, yeah, I'm curious how

16:20

you think people can be better employing

16:23

these tools. Yeah, I

16:25

think it's worth it makes me want to like,

16:27

kind of track my own trajectory as a

16:29

creator. You know, I'm a millennial. One of

16:31

the art forms that I was interested in

16:34

as I was also like, becoming

16:36

a filmmaker was street photography.

16:39

And really glad I started there, because I

16:41

think that really allowed me to unpack the

16:43

ethics. There's this idea amongst street photographers. First

16:46

of all, I think it's the most extractative

16:48

art form. And it's so rude. It's premised

16:50

on the idea that if you're in a public

16:52

space, then you're free for the taking, which never

16:55

acknowledges that not everybody has access to private space.

16:57

So, and there was a dialogue

16:59

that being in community with other street photographers where

17:01

it's, well, if you take the time to

17:03

ask consent, you can't get the picture as

17:05

good. And I'm like, that's on you as

17:07

the person taking the image. If you can't

17:09

make this person comfortable, if you see something

17:11

in the wild and you want to capture

17:13

it and you can't find a way to

17:16

make this person comfortable with that and to

17:18

recreate it, then you have failed. And just

17:20

taking it without their permission is not like

17:22

a skill issue. Exactly. It's like a problem.

17:24

So I think my own relationship to consent

17:26

had been shifting through that work. And I

17:28

started to like people for

17:30

pictures and the images felt

17:32

better. And also I then

17:34

was like, Oh, but the framing is a little

17:36

like contrived. And I don't know, like you can feel

17:38

that. So I've been trying to figure

17:40

out how to ask for consent, but

17:42

still have things feel like they're alive.

17:45

And then it was really through this

17:47

like collective organizing and learning from my

17:49

peers and co-founders of Bufu, Sonia

17:52

Choi, Seddam Tom, Sege

17:54

Tafessa. They, I think, grew me

17:56

because they were coming from this yeah, collective

17:58

organizing background where. care and love are at

18:00

the center of what you do. We also

18:03

were working on a documentary project looking

18:05

at Black and Asian cultural and political

18:07

relationships. As the documentarian

18:09

of the group, there were many times where

18:11

I would edit this piece and I'd be

18:13

like, isn't it powerful? They'd be like, yeah,

18:15

it's entertaining but it doesn't feel good on

18:18

a soul level. I specifically think about

18:20

a thing we were editing about the

18:22

LA riots. I had sourced

18:24

all of these archival materials to tell this

18:26

emotional story about LA riots and the racial

18:28

dynamics. They were like, yeah, no, let's

18:31

rethink this. I'm so glad we did because

18:33

years later, I was listening to a podcast

18:35

about the LA riots and I heard them

18:38

use the exact same archival clips I had

18:40

pulled in the exact same order. I

18:42

realized that even when you think

18:45

you're going to this raw material, it's

18:47

like news archive. It's like that was

18:49

captured through such a specific lens that

18:51

is so racialized, that you can try

18:53

to work with these materials and extract

18:55

it, but it's embedded into the quality

18:57

of which it was recorded. I

19:00

think that taught me a huge lesson of

19:03

also things need to feel good at the point

19:05

of recording and then they also like

19:07

how you edit it will impact if it

19:09

feels good. And so yeah, thinking about myself

19:11

or Olivia, for everyone we interview, I was

19:14

very aware that these images would be permanent

19:16

and that people would be in dialogue with

19:18

them. And I wanted to

19:20

me, like a picture of somebody or

19:22

a video of somebody is not a good picture if they

19:24

don't like it. So it's, I can't tell you look at

19:27

how good you look. I took a great picture and then you're like,

19:29

but I don't, that's not my angle. For

19:31

me, the, my skill, like

19:33

the skill that I have to keep

19:35

in mind as I'm directing this process and shooting it

19:37

is, is the subject feeling comfortable

19:39

with how they're being portrayed because they're doing a

19:42

huge gift. They're giving me a huge gift in

19:44

lending their likeness and it is not

19:46

to be taken lightly. That is,

19:49

I think, something for all emerging filmmakers

19:51

to come back to at the

19:53

end of the day. Does this feel good in

19:55

the moment? And we, we know that that is

19:57

not how it's been. I also. love

20:00

that you specifically called out the

20:04

telling the emotional story in that clip about

20:06

that or in the piece about the LA

20:08

riots and how that actually didn't feel true.

20:10

And that, you know, even if

20:12

that is an instinct, and of course, of course we

20:14

want to be telling stories and we want to entertain,

20:16

but if it's at what cost and

20:19

then pushing beyond that can get to even more

20:21

and different stories that

20:23

feel better in the film, we

20:25

see you going to

20:28

people and engaging with them in this very

20:30

human way, where it's like coming from a

20:32

vulnerable a place of vulnerability, a place

20:35

of curiosity. And I think it is also sort of this

20:37

master class and how to be creating in

20:40

a way that is with the people

20:42

that are going to be on the

20:44

screen forever. It's, it's so cool. It's so

20:46

powerful. Thank you. And I will say, we spent

20:49

a lot of time Googling, like, we

20:51

just trained ourselves on how to do a lot of

20:53

these things. So no film school was a really useful

20:55

resource when I was like, how do I set design?

20:58

Like, how do I make this headquarters? And yeah, how

21:01

do you make a movie? So thank you for the

21:03

resource because we Google, I don't want

21:05

to shut out Google, but search engines are really

21:07

what trained us in making this movie. I would

21:09

say more than any, like, higher

21:11

education, any accelerator, any fellowship, it was

21:13

truly just using search engines to figure

21:16

out what other people are saying. The

21:18

tools are at, are there. The information

21:20

is there. It's just about finding it.

21:22

I mean, it makes sense. We've got

21:24

detectives here, figuring it out. I mean,

21:27

to talk about the space in the,

21:29

in the West, West Oakland warehouse that

21:31

you created that then also becomes part

21:33

of the story, which I don't want

21:35

to reveal on the podcast. Actually

21:38

this, I didn't even think I was going to talk

21:40

about, but you've created this safe space,

21:42

this beautiful space that like in many

21:44

ways became part of the story

21:46

itself. Let's talk about nesting and like, how

21:49

can people be creating their space? It was,

21:51

it was honestly like probably one of the

21:53

most important things that we did at the

21:55

beginning because like it was COVID. So it

21:57

wasn't like we could co-work in those. co-working,

22:00

like there was no, like the coffee

22:02

shop like that, it would have gotten weird. And

22:05

so, and then there was also a sense of with

22:07

how like, how deep

22:09

the rabbit hole went. If we tried to

22:11

map things out in like Jaz's house, like

22:13

just, it would have just gotten, like we

22:16

would have lost our minds much faster. And

22:19

so I think from the very

22:21

early on, like, I think there was a

22:23

large amount of like intention setting that went

22:25

into the process of like,

22:28

we're gonna have an HQ, like

22:30

all the investigator bros do, and

22:32

it's gonna have an altar, and

22:34

it's gonna have couches. And

22:36

it's going to, we're going to

22:39

get these TVs off Facebook marketplace

22:41

and the street, and we're gonna put them on

22:43

the stack. And kind of like, creating,

22:46

I think, like a

22:48

place to spiral that felt like it could

22:50

contain all like all the

22:52

things we didn't know it would contain. And also

22:55

a place that was set up in a way

22:57

that like, we could be filming from any angle,

22:59

and not have to spend too much time like,

23:02

setting up the shot and then getting, and then

23:05

leaving our bodies because we're in like

23:07

spectator mode was also really important as well.

23:09

And I know it does. Yeah,

23:11

no, I think it circles back to your question

23:14

of what collective organizing principles came

23:16

into play. And for us, if you

23:18

have a project, you team up with

23:21

a local nonprofit or grassroots organization in

23:23

order to amplify that cause because we

23:25

never have the resources we need. So

23:27

like, just this idea of finessing, scamming is like

23:30

very top of mind and being like, also

23:32

aware of we add a lot of value

23:35

to these nonprofits. Like, we are like, you

23:37

can work with us and you've got blackness

23:39

covered, queerness covered, youth culture. And

23:41

so also understanding that though we

23:43

may not have these crazy like

23:46

accolades that our bodies being in these spaces

23:48

inherently makes them more thorough and more radical.

23:50

And so that is what we pitched on

23:52

is reaching out to these nonprofits, where we

23:55

saw that they didn't include people like us

23:57

and saying, Hey, let us help you enact.

24:00

your mission statement. And

24:02

that's, I think, coming at people without understanding where

24:04

it's like giving them both the benefit of the doubt,

24:06

but just saying the quiet part out loud, which is

24:08

you need us, and we will make you

24:10

better for it. So yeah, I think I would

24:14

encourage any makers to just also

24:16

think about outside of the institutional

24:19

support, these larger institutions. And yes,

24:21

you can get a camera package from Panavision,

24:23

and that's great. And you should apply for it. But also, who

24:25

do you know who you can borrow

24:27

their camera? And yeah, like you don't

24:29

need a $700 Astras light, you can

24:32

also just figure it

24:35

out with a bulb from the dollar store. And so

24:37

yeah, I think that you can buy

24:39

in return, you can buy really, that's a big

24:41

thing. Another thing I'd like to shout out just

24:43

slightly pivoting for like filmmakers that are just starting

24:45

out is something, if I could

24:47

do it again, I don't think I felt like

24:49

the moment we had resources, we just had to

24:51

ask. So it's like the moment neon approved this

24:54

project, we're on the go. And I don't think

24:56

I need to ask to test things,

24:58

you know, we just have to do this.

25:00

So the idea of testing cameras, testing lenses,

25:02

doing color tests, all of those things were

25:04

things I didn't know to ask for that would

25:06

have saved us a lot of time and money. Yeah.

25:08

So I would say I think when you're

25:11

at the start of your career, and you just feel

25:13

like ingratiated to these people, it's hard

25:15

to ask for what you need. And people assume

25:17

that you're just asking for what you need.

25:19

So I do think like advocating and letting

25:21

people know, there are so many times in

25:23

the process, I said, Hey guys, I'm a

25:25

first time filmmaker. I don't know how this

25:27

works. Explain this to me. Raquel Savage, I

25:29

believe, but Raquel who did our graphics, this

25:31

was Salt Press. I really appreciate it. We

25:33

were talking in post production.

25:36

And she just said, Okay, guys, explain this to

25:38

me like I'm a five year old. And I

25:40

think that's just a great prompt. So

25:43

that like you not knowing something, it's not

25:45

on you. It's not like you have this

25:47

like inferiority complex, but just naming like this

25:49

is where I'm at. And this is the

25:51

information I need help figuring out. And hey, we're

25:53

all a community here. We all have the same

25:56

interest. Help me figure this out. Right. That's

25:58

such an interesting depth to identify and

26:00

it feels like often

26:02

so daunting as an emerging filmmaker, especially

26:04

if you're entering a space where

26:07

it's like, oh these people have like a ton

26:09

of films and I don't, like, should I, well,

26:11

I don't know what I don't know. And

26:13

to be able to articulate that, what, what

26:15

were some of the, like, when

26:17

were, when did you realize, for example, I,

26:21

I could have asked for to test

26:23

lenses. Was that just something in

26:25

conversation? Realizing the lenses we had were incredibly

26:27

hard to focus with, which, you know, plays into

26:29

the dreamy quality of this film. Yeah. Yeah. But

26:31

I think, yeah, it's, I

26:33

think we pitched this

26:35

film and when you're in the pitching stage, you're like,

26:37

I'm the best person for the job. I'm so

26:39

smart. I'm so brilliant. I'm so qualified. And you

26:42

have to, and

26:44

you are like, you know, totally. Yeah. And not

26:46

to discredit that, but it's, I think it's also,

26:48

then once you get past the pitch stage and

26:50

people have greenlit it, it's really hard to admit,

26:52

like, I actually don't know how this works. And I was

26:55

kind of like, I was like emphasizing

26:57

like my prowess a little bit more, like,

26:59

now let's talk for real about where we're

27:01

at. Yeah. So yeah, I think I was,

27:03

I was really lucky in terms of the

27:05

team that I was surrounded with. The moon

27:07

is literally, that's my family. There are members

27:09

of my family. And so I felt very

27:12

comfortable being like, guys, I don't know what's

27:14

going on here. And then with

27:16

neon too, there was a lot of understanding

27:18

when it came to giving us

27:20

time to figure it out. And also they emphasize,

27:22

we think this is interesting, regardless of

27:24

the outcome of this investigation, we

27:26

think what you're doing is really interesting. And

27:29

you know, that manifested when

27:31

two years ago they're like, so are we ready

27:33

to submit the film to Sundance? And I was

27:35

like, can I have more time and having to

27:37

negotiate for those things and realizing that from the

27:39

outside it's, oh, they invested this money and they

27:41

want the return of the investment. And we have to release it. And like,

27:43

when you actually talk to them as a person and you're like, this

27:45

could be better if we could just sort it out more. And

27:47

then being like, yeah, that's totally fine. So

27:49

I think for me, just being able, I

27:51

think asking for what you

27:53

really need and also the reality that you

27:55

want, what you want. And the reality is

27:58

like our intuitions were not that. far

28:00

off. So there would be a lot of things that

28:02

I would doubt myself in the process or really

28:04

quietly be like, maybe I might need this later.

28:06

And then a month goes by and you've spent

28:08

money and it's okay. I actually did

28:10

need that. And so for

28:12

example, like just in

28:14

post production, we needed a space to edit, we no

28:16

longer have the headquarters. And so asking them like, Hey,

28:18

maybe I could get a space to edit. And then

28:21

the edit took very long and

28:23

being like, Oh, shit, should have asked

28:25

for my own editing system. So that I could do

28:27

this from home. And then having to be like, Hey

28:29

guys, I know we just spent a lot of money

28:31

running out this space, but can I also get a

28:34

system and then being like, okay.

28:36

And so I think it's like, on

28:38

the outside, I was like really intimidated because it's

28:40

like thinking about it from that financial

28:43

perspective of they've invested so much in me, I

28:45

have to prove that I'm good for it. But

28:47

also, everybody just wants the film to succeed. So

28:49

you have to ask for what you need. And

28:51

you can't like make yourself smaller in those moments,

28:53

because you just end up costing more money. So

28:56

the longer it takes for you to ask for the

28:58

thing that you suspect you might need, the more it

29:00

costs you and then you're just going to ask for

29:02

it in the end anyway, probably or regret that you didn't

29:04

ask for it. Yeah. Thank you for being

29:06

so transparent about that in particular. I

29:08

am in a similar situation in post

29:11

and I'm like, I need more time

29:13

and I need to ask for it. And

29:15

it's really scary for the exact reasons

29:18

that you're outlining, but it's okay. And it's

29:20

okay for it to be scary

29:22

at two to feel scared to ask. That's

29:24

how I feel anyway. Okay. So the film

29:27

has, it's here at

29:29

Sundance and I'd love to hear how the,

29:34

now that it's been in front of an audience, what

29:36

the reaction is and how, how you, how,

29:39

what it is, what it has been like to have it out in

29:41

the world. I

29:44

really was, I think the thing most that most surprised me

29:47

about what I enjoyed about the premiere is

29:49

like sitting on a crowd of people like

29:52

who were like laughing at the things that like

29:54

I thought were pretty funny and

29:56

like, like sign the things that

29:58

like were a little disappointing. and

30:00

I felt very like, so typically,

30:02

wow, cinema, really unites

30:05

the human race. We all bleed,

30:07

we all feel. That's so great.

30:09

Wow. The way, wow, I just feel

30:11

so connected to every human

30:13

being in this room laughter, just nights.

30:16

Yeah. In

30:18

my really mushy way, I was like, I feel so

30:20

close to everybody in this room right now.

30:24

I think a lot of

30:26

folks have been like, are you nervous? How do

30:28

you feel about being at sometimes I predominantly feel

30:30

like a lot of love. I

30:32

mostly feel, wow, like we were like super

30:34

so far, like we've been like watching the

30:36

film and rooms, kind of when we have

30:38

this like a very immediate circle of people.

30:41

And like, none of that cycle of circle

30:43

of people has double, triple 10 times

30:45

the size it was and it

30:47

is still liable to get much larger. The

30:49

fact that most people who encounter it are

30:52

like, receive it so warmly has been like

30:54

really, really wonderful because it's just wow. Maybe

30:57

the speaking trend. Yeah. Just getting

30:59

bigger and bigger and that's really nice. Yeah.

31:02

I want to shout out there were a few black

31:04

femme sitting in front of us at the

31:06

premiere. They did not know that Olivia and I

31:08

were sitting behind them and what a

31:10

treat they vocalized every thought. And

31:14

so just like what a magical experience, like

31:16

hearing them in real time be like, oh,

31:18

look at Olivia, she's so nice. Oh, I

31:20

like the music. Ooh, they're going next to

31:22

this place. And okay, so is that Renee's

31:25

son calling? What's going on here? It was

31:27

amazing and that's something that I didn't know

31:29

to look forward to. And then

31:31

yeah, my whole family was at the premiere. I

31:34

come from a family of brilliant people, but

31:37

I am the first filmmaker and being

31:40

an artist is kind of a different thing. And

31:42

so getting them to see what it means to

31:44

be a filmmaker on this scale and walk the

31:46

step and repeat. And yeah, having a room

31:48

full of people laugh at my dad's dad

31:50

jokes is like the best thing in the

31:52

world. So for me, I think it's, yeah,

31:54

I'm perpetually waiting for the other

31:57

shoe to drop where I'm like, wow, this is like so surreal. I'm

31:59

really, I'm really excited on Tuesday we have a

32:02

screening, a high school screening, and that's

32:04

where the truth will come out because

32:06

it's a group of people that were

32:08

all born after May the Speaking

32:10

was super relevant. After me, I'm not even

32:12

high school. I know and I'm like, this

32:15

is our true test. Now we'll see what

32:17

lands. So I'll circle back a little bit.

32:19

Okay, okay. Well,

32:22

congratulations and I hope that you are absorbing

32:24

all of this love for the film. And

32:26

because watching it, I felt the love you

32:28

put into it. And it's amazing to

32:31

see it come to life and be

32:33

out in the world. Yes,

32:35

thank you. And good luck on your film and on

32:37

posts. And I would just like to say, give them

32:39

hell. You know, ask them what they want. Let them

32:41

tell you no. Let them tell you no a few

32:43

times. Also, it's you're already in post-production. So what are

32:45

they gonna do? You know, get what you need. Be

32:48

like, hey, if this takes longer, it's actually. Yeah,

32:51

and fight us. Be like, I talked to the team from

32:53

Speaking May the Speaking and they were saying, so yeah.

32:56

Yeah, that's for anybody in the audience. Thank

32:59

you so much. So much. Thank

33:01

you, appreciate it. Thank

33:11

you so much, Jasmine and Olivia, for

33:13

joining us during their busy Sundance premiere.

33:16

I'm so thrilled to hear that No

33:18

Film School has been a resource for

33:20

you two. And that

33:23

you and the work you're doing are setting

33:25

a standard for how others

33:27

can be telling stories in

33:29

meaningful and ethical ways and

33:32

still have an amazing time

33:34

doing it. I love that you're

33:36

fighting for the story and

33:38

your own space and doing it in a

33:40

way that is, you know, it's such a

33:42

joy to be around you both. So I'm

33:44

really excited for this film. I can't wait

33:46

for it to be out in the world. We'll definitely check

33:48

in with you when it is out in

33:51

the world and congratulations. You

33:53

can like, rate and subscribe to the No Film School

33:55

podcast across all podcast platforms. You can

33:58

also get more No Film School. and

34:00

Sundance coverage at nofilmschool.com.

34:03

Finally, you can follow us

34:06

on social media at No Film

34:09

School. And you can also follow Jasmine

34:11

and Olivia and their work on

34:13

social media. They have a great social

34:15

media presence that's tied to this film.

34:17

Thanks for listening.