0:00

Hey, everybody. Welcome

0:10

to the No Film School podcast for the

0:12

week of March 20th, 2024. I'm

0:16

Charles Hay and I'm here with Gigi Hawkins. Hello

0:18

there. Jason Hellerman. Good

0:20

morning. This week, we are starting

0:22

with the Ask No Film School that we were going to get

0:24

to last week in the intro and then we never made it

0:27

to, but we're starting with this week because it's a good one,

0:29

and it's one we haven't talked about in a while, and I

0:31

think it's interesting to unpack. Then we're going

0:33

to talk about the movie that we think led us

0:35

to want to make movies, and

0:37

whether or not we think that would lead other people to

0:39

want to make movies. We're going to wrap it all up

0:42

with a new regular segment, I can't

0:44

participate in, called Lessons from Survivor. But

0:47

I love that it is out there and I

0:49

will do lessons from whatever movie I happened to

0:51

have watched last night, which is Julio Torres' Problemista

0:54

from which we can learn plenty of lessons. Yeah,

0:58

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have a mortgage and a wife and a child, and

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I did not feel nearly as

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old as like walking out the door, talking

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to a sitter, being like, we'll

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Tara. Only in theaters April 5th. First up, this

2:59

week, we had a great question from

3:01

a listener named Gavin that

3:04

I wanted to dig into and give a

3:06

surprising, maybe frustrating

3:08

answer to. So, Gavin

3:11

has a dream of being in the film industry and

3:13

we've opened their eyes to how difficult it can be.

3:15

I'm not sure if I feel good about... I

3:18

don't want to scare anybody. You can make a living in this

3:20

industry. There's plenty of stuff to do. I'm

3:23

not sure if it's in 2023 or 2024, but

3:26

I have a confidence of about 25. I

3:29

feel like next year is going to be a good

3:31

year. So, Gavin is going to make a single video,

3:35

a demo, for some investors in

3:37

a tech product. So, they

3:39

need to shoot a single scene with

3:42

an actor and a laptop

3:46

and they need to demo what's happening on

3:48

the laptop. Part of

3:50

the world that Gavin works in, and Gavin asks, like,

3:52

what should I get? What camera and

3:54

what boom and what not should I get?

3:58

For a thousand dollars. And

4:00

I'm going to answer Gavin's question, but we're going

4:03

to do this thing called burying the lead, where

4:06

I'm going to save the answer for Gavin's

4:08

question and actually say, Gavin, I don't think

4:11

for $1,000 you would be best served by

4:13

buying things. I think for $1,000 you'd be

4:15

best served by hiring someone. And

4:18

I see by the nods of Gigi and Jason that

4:20

they already knew I was going to go there. Probably some

4:22

of the listeners already knew it went, it was going

4:24

to go there. But here's my basic argument. For

4:28

$1,000, you're not going to end up with a camera

4:30

any better than the camera on your phone. And

4:34

for $1,000, you're not really going to

4:36

end up with stuff that's going to end up growing

4:38

with you as you start. If you decide to start

4:40

booking freelance shop, they're going to grow with you. If

4:43

there's one thing you should maybe get at sound

4:45

equipment, maybe you can justify buying that in that

4:47

budget, like put $200 on sound and $800 in

4:49

hiring someone. But

4:53

that would be about it. Because what

4:56

I really recommend people do is

4:58

that I recommend people buy equipment

5:01

when they have jobs regularly justified.

5:03

Where you're like booking three or four things a year where you

5:05

have to do a shoot where it's going to pay for itself

5:08

and where it can grow with you to

5:11

maybe start booking slightly bigger things.

5:15

Short of that, it takes time to get

5:17

to know your gear and to learn how to use it.

5:19

And you want to, you know, for $800, depending upon what

5:21

market you're in. But frankly, even in New York or LA,

5:23

you said, I want to hire someone for $800 for a

5:25

day. I would like you

5:28

to come out and help me shoot this thing and

5:30

camera and sound. I know a lot of

5:32

younger people that $800 a day is still a reasonable amount for

5:34

them to go out for a day to shoot

5:37

something and they'll have a camera and they'll have sound

5:39

and they'll do it. And they'll show you what they're

5:41

doing. You'll work together. You'll figure out shots. You'll have

5:43

their physical labor in addition to all of their equipment.

5:45

You'll see what they're doing. And I think you will

5:47

be much better off if that is your budget not

5:49

buying gear. I realize this is not what you asked

5:52

for. You asked for what gear do I spend my

5:54

$1,000 on? But

5:56

I'm telling you, $1,000 is like What? A $500 camera? One

6:00

hundred on a tripod and four hundred dollars and

6:02

sound. I'm going to consumers would Asians in

6:04

their own you want to or three hundred always. I'm

6:07

going to give some recommendations and I put

6:09

your but I don't think you'll be happy with

6:11

what I can recommend and I think you're

6:13

grow it really quickly him and it's better. To.

6:15

Uses an opportunity, To.

6:18

Practice what most professional filmmakers do which is

6:20

rights. The. Vast majority

6:22

I say this yeah, interoffice

6:24

surrounded with dear. But. I'm

6:26

also a teacher and I do a lot weird

6:28

stuff and Somoza have geared to play with it

6:30

of that like up. You. Know there's

6:32

great you video out there about the at the old

6:35

x ray lens the dice made the sixties the point

6:37

of it's I got one of those like. I'm

6:39

not not. Boasts working so maker it's

6:41

one of the biggest. The Bees David moment is

6:43

like I own. Free. Like meters. I bring them

6:46

in one face. That's all I on. Everything else is a rental.

6:48

Most professionals rents. Because.

6:50

Year has wear and tear and you up bro

6:53

it and especially in an age where like if

6:55

you have an I phone from last five years

6:57

on Android from last. Couple of years

6:59

in your pocket. But. Cameras so good that

7:01

if you're thinking our whenever timur so I can

7:03

practice I can shoot Will seek friends was always

7:06

practice. You. Probably already have

7:08

that. Same. You

7:10

wanna spend money on the gear that you

7:12

could make money with? And

7:14

like half the year my office I've made money

7:16

with in some way, shape or form, on freelance

7:18

jobs or whatever. Half of it's weird of stuff.

7:21

And. Some of that I rent because I'm like the one

7:23

person these posts to has some weird thing and there's actually

7:25

a market in renting. It. But

7:27

the. Vast new will be

7:29

way better served. By. Renting

7:32

this year. Then. You will

7:34

be by buying so why minutes and going on sugar?

7:36

You should go to your good cheer. Grid is a

7:38

local peer to peer rental platforms else. Even if you're

7:40

not the major market, if you're a major market the

7:42

real houses. I'll have the stuff I'm sure good. but

7:44

even if you're not, if you're in a small market,

7:46

Torture. Good. You can find different at that rate. The.

7:49

Other thing is like it takes time to learn how to

7:51

use your ear hair. and eight

7:53

hundred bucks will get you a person for a

7:55

day who will come out and work with you

7:58

to figure out of bed shots and don't know

8:00

there gear and they'll hand over footage and it'll

8:02

be prepped right and you'll walk away having learned

8:04

so much by that experience without having gear to

8:06

then worry about where you store and how you

8:08

maintain and if it breaks and insurance, you

8:11

will be way better off. If

8:13

you really want to do

8:16

$1,000 worth of gear, you should break it

8:18

down like 400 camera, 100

8:20

tripod, 300 sound, 200 out of light.

8:25

So you have at least a light, that's a thousand bucks.

8:28

That's not going to go very far. You can get

8:30

like a nice little Aputure MC30 or two for a

8:32

hundred bucks each. I like those lights or the MC

8:34

Pro, they're nice. I

8:37

don't know what I would say for a hundred dollars tripod. I

8:39

think Benro is probably the hundred dollar tripod and I honestly don't

8:41

know what I would say for, oh, I do know what I

8:43

would say for $300 in sound. Instead

8:46

of a boom, everybody, you've seen them

8:48

on TikTok, if you're on TikTok, I am not,

8:50

but like they're either called the Rode Go or

8:52

DJI has the DJI Go or MoVo makes a

8:54

MoVo Go and it's a nice little thing and

8:56

it's like two little wireless labs you can clip

8:59

on people's necks and the receiver. And

9:02

then for $400 by the nicest used

9:04

Sony you can get for $400, which

9:06

will be a couple of years old,

9:09

but something. Did

9:12

I say I'm wrong in any way? I think that's a

9:14

satisfying answer. I feel like you have answered

9:16

it, answered Gavin in multiple

9:19

ways. You can move forward this way

9:21

if you really want to have your

9:23

own stuff, but practically this

9:26

is the alternative. This is what would be

9:28

seen as normal. And I think

9:30

you bring up a really important point about

9:33

buying gear. It's an investment

9:35

that requires management. If you

9:37

want it to be something that you're renting out, like

9:39

the DP on my movie, he buys,

9:42

shares a camera with a

9:44

guy and they, they rent it out through rare

9:47

breeds here in LA and

9:50

sometimes they can't use their own camera

9:52

because it's already rented. So

9:55

it takes, it takes time and energy to manage that

9:57

as well. And you don't, what you don't want is

9:59

like. investment like that to be sitting

10:01

there and not being used.

10:04

I worked in commercials, you know, a

10:06

fair amount. And one of the directors I worked

10:09

for a lot used his

10:11

first like million dollars to buy a

10:13

bunch of equipment. And he said and now

10:16

he rents it from himself, you know, when he does

10:19

commercials and he was like, it's like, you know, that's

10:21

a back door way. But sans being

10:23

a millionaire, you know, I think there's a lot of

10:25

other ways. And, you know, it's funny, you know, that

10:27

was let's say like 35 years ago he's

10:30

older now, but just going off your

10:33

point, Charles, every famous DP in Hollywood

10:35

rents his stuff like through him.

10:37

They're not like, oh, I'm using my personal

10:39

Alexa or I'm using,

10:41

you know, my personal Stanley Kubrick's these lenses, you

10:44

know what I mean? It's like, no, I'll go

10:46

pay a fee, you know, rent for however

10:49

many days through whatever and then go home.

10:53

I think at the end of the day,

10:56

having gear is always fun, right? Like I want

10:58

to what I love about like grips and, you

11:00

know, you just like go over to their house and they're like,

11:02

here's, you know, here's my bag, here's my whatever. But at the

11:04

end of the day, when you're making something,

11:07

it's mostly about access and spending

11:09

the rent or spending on a person always

11:12

turns out better than many

11:14

times I've been like, what can I do with this

11:16

Canon 5D in my apartment? And like, I have no

11:18

idea what I'm doing. And I waste a weekend just

11:21

getting shots that would be, you know, practicing

11:24

for the big day instead of actually,

11:26

you know, fulfilling what my budget entails.

11:29

It's such a good question, though, Gavin, because like,

11:32

who how would you even know? Like, where would

11:34

you even know if you weren't in the industry

11:36

or knew somebody in the industry? So I'm so

11:38

glad you asked that. Yeah, no,

11:40

it's a wonderful question. I'm really grateful for it. I like

11:42

getting the riff on it. And I understand the

11:44

instinct. I have the same instinct where I was like, once

11:46

I get a camera, then I'm on my way. But

11:49

then once you have a camera, you watch how much it sits,

11:51

how much it doesn't work for you. And the

11:54

big thing, too, is that like. Obviously,

11:56

there's that famous story of Werner Herzog breaking into

11:58

the homeschool in Munich. stealing their area

12:00

35.3 and then used on his first

12:03

four features. We've all heard that

12:05

story. He tells it like well. I haven't

12:07

heard that. Yeah. He tells it in an interview. Warner.

12:09

He's like, I wasn't stealing anything. That camera was meant

12:11

to be mine. I saw it and I realized it

12:13

was mine. That's

12:16

what I told the person at H&M when I

12:19

saw a tank top in seventh grade. It was

12:21

meant to be mine. It was yours. It

12:23

was mine. My mom didn't agree. Made me bring

12:26

it back. Security guard at

12:28

the mall probably didn't agree either. It

12:30

was a low point. Yeah. I mean,

12:33

every 11-year-old does that once.

12:35

They're like, oh, wait a minute. No, we pay

12:37

for products. Yeah. Yeah. Except for

12:39

Warner Herzog. Yes. I

12:41

suspect at this point where Herzog has probably made

12:43

that right with the Munich Film School. Yeah. But

12:46

that's not as good a story, so it

12:48

doesn't end up in the interview. But I

12:50

understand that instinct. But also in the digital

12:52

era, shit ages fast. Yeah.

12:54

Oh my. It is

12:56

not the same as like, for

12:59

instance, I have some weird lenses. Why

13:02

am I willing to spend money on weird lenses?

13:04

Because a lot of these are

13:06

already 40 years old, so their price depreciation is

13:08

already baked in. And I bet I'm

13:10

going to get another 40 years out of them

13:12

in some weird way unless AI erases everything. But

13:14

like every digital thing

13:16

you buy loses 40% of

13:19

its value the second you buy it because

13:21

it's digital. And in a couple of years,

13:23

it will be considered out of date. Like

13:25

it's crazy how fast digital depreciation is. And

13:29

right now, like, you know, I

13:31

have I have projects this year that are making

13:34

me buy things for the projects this year. And

13:36

even the projects I have that are

13:38

justifying the price, I'm a little bummed

13:41

because I'm like, I bet there's going to be a new one of these

13:43

next year. And like it's,

13:46

you know, so it's like it's very hard

13:48

in this period of rapid technological advance to

13:50

justify unless you are booking the regular jobs

13:52

to do it. If you're booking the regular

13:54

jobs to do it, like your commercial director

13:56

friend, obviously buying the

13:58

gear, buying The Gear. For than renting it

14:00

like four times a year. So. Once you

14:03

want real renting a thing for five times a year,

14:05

the news by force. But. You.

14:08

Gotta get the point. Rear any four five times

14:10

a year to justify the best is yet. And

14:12

as it's hard to get do it. it

14:14

does take time. I think the Russian always

14:16

is. What has to have it

14:18

now because it'll make me feel the jets you

14:20

now that I have. If I haven't I'm a

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so methods of know making stuff makes you so

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This episode as bright new by visit.

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and plan your trip at

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williamsburg.com. Or. Hopefully this

15:27

was not frustrating. Answered fathom that it's

15:29

gonna be with us. Over for next

15:31

intersection which is the movies that made

15:34

us wanna make movies. Which. Honestly,

15:36

I'm. Twenty. Five years into this

15:38

and no one's ever asked me that question before. So

15:40

is the first some have ever. Had to

15:42

answer it but Jason we're going make you go

15:45

first yet totally theory is a topic came up

15:47

with. Mostly. By random,

15:49

you know, is tennis some of the

15:51

saw my topics right when he says

15:53

yesterday was recording this yes he was

15:55

St Patrick's. And I I. Sit.

15:57

as they seek out a my family were growing up.

16:00

You know my maternal grandmother the i was kind

16:02

of excess of the boat and then i. Mean.

16:04

It was a big holiday and I remember

16:07

being in that safe fourth grade. And.

16:09

Hurry my Grandpa taking me in Philadelphia to

16:11

a movie theater called the Ritz at the

16:13

Bourse. And it was like our

16:16

independence you know, film feel like they

16:18

had. Foreign. Titles that ran their

16:20

we Went Unsolved Wait, Ned Divine and I

16:22

remember as great movie we haven't seen. It's.

16:25

Sort. About these two guys who try

16:27

to com die lottery in Ireland and

16:29

says wonderful film I remember that being

16:31

like. This. Is a

16:34

film by persistence. And. Not watching

16:36

Disney my parents. I'm not watching Indiana Jones

16:38

which you know much later I would find

16:40

out. You know what's that? It was a

16:42

big yeah Our took some craft site that

16:44

this was. this is a film the movie

16:47

and I couldn't predict it right? It was

16:49

toying with my emotions. There was. Last.

16:51

Year they were sadness that there is

16:53

for you know a touch of sex

16:56

you know which says that in for

16:58

a billion events such statistics the like.

17:00

Deeply. Thinking about that and watching the i

17:02

watched anything bad to say yes to this day

17:04

and I was like know what I see like

17:07

this is the first movie I watched it felt

17:09

like a movie that made me think like oh

17:11

there are people doing this someone team up with

17:13

these ideas. That. You know there's

17:15

like so behind the camera someone finds

17:17

doing things and best for me it's

17:19

like oh yeah that's. What? Was

17:21

the spark like I can do this. I remember

17:23

I'm going home and my son, my parents. My

17:26

parents were like. What? Happens in this

17:28

movie is to naked old many ride a

17:30

motorcycle or the best parts of it and

17:32

Roger Ebert mentions as his review is the

17:34

best case of on screen male nudity Today

17:36

in our The Funny says it's something I

17:39

always strive to be put in Others like

17:41

that To me south so formative and so

17:43

like. You can do this. You

17:45

can subvert expectations. You can have a little. These

17:47

things you know adds a touch of this in

17:50

such a bad sinus. on are banned the and

17:52

I like to this day like Arizona, Sit and

17:54

write something. It's. That movie

17:56

to the forefront of my mind and also just a

17:58

movie I love telling people to. One. That's. It,

18:01

I think it's so unpredictably fine

18:03

and. Loving. And warm

18:05

bed. Is. Deathly. Was

18:07

like oh okay like maybe I could do this

18:09

you know maybe this is something and enough for

18:11

me would be like my my pick. Overall. Men:

18:16

Just like a much more nuanced answer that

18:18

I'm going to give the first my gonna

18:20

gonna. Yeah. Why the it's

18:22

what's so funny is that. Having sex with

18:24

this question your sort of having to think back of like.

18:27

Like I remember being really young and we were

18:29

watching a movie. There's a werewolf in it and

18:32

I was asking the friends to define the difference

18:34

between a movie in a cartoon. Oh, I'm I'm

18:36

like. I remember that moment of like, what is

18:38

the difference Like why is one like photographed in

18:40

one? Strong like trying to unpack that? I remember

18:43

that. but I think the movie that actually. Had.

18:45

The most impact on me wanting to

18:47

do this. And. It's interesting because I

18:49

don't have bad self reflexive memory you have

18:51

of like recognizing it as a movie. But.

18:54

I do remember becoming Tissue the

18:56

obsessed with the movie Clue. Oh

18:58

yeah was the movies I watched

19:00

so often. And one of,

19:02

I mean there's so many toys of Clue

19:04

but Clues? A movie that has so much

19:06

joy in. Dancing. Wish on Run!

19:09

Yet. Recognizing the genre is a thing and

19:11

playing with it and having fun with it.

19:13

And you know, if you haven't seen Clue

19:15

famously as Multiple Endings Yep, and playing with.

19:18

Painting. And pay off. And what are we putting to

19:20

make each of those endings the Justified? I

19:22

remember having so much joy with the dance

19:24

of those and things as a child. Is

19:27

I think that that has a lot to do with

19:29

what. Interested

19:32

me in story and character genre which is

19:34

you know, the kind of things that make

19:36

you want to work and movies where you're.

19:39

You're fascinated in sort of unpacking it

19:41

and polio apart. And see

19:43

how old's the pieces go together. That

19:46

would be the thing that I look back on and,

19:48

like out, yeah, that was that the the messy little,

19:50

not that I got really wound up. Yeah

19:52

that until recently on today is exist on

19:54

you tube right? like in the like. Making.

19:57

Love to live in an onion finely sorta

19:59

thing. that, you know, I'll be 37

20:02

soon. Like I remember distinctly being like

20:04

FYE in the mall and like going

20:07

to like their book section,

20:09

which is like, you know, it's like movie or

20:11

four year entertainment is what FYE stood for, which

20:13

I didn't learn to that store

20:15

closed decades, decades after they

20:18

disbanded. But going and like

20:20

looking for books on movies that maybe they carry

20:23

or like in a Barnes and Noble and like

20:25

the $5 bin being like, how do they do

20:27

these things? And then I feel like everything's

20:29

a YouTube click away. But I like distinctly

20:32

remember like ordering books. I

20:34

was wondering, Charles, were you did you were you like, did

20:36

you have like clue swag that you were

20:39

just watching over and over? I mean, there was

20:41

no, there was,

20:44

what's the word that was popular for transmedia,

20:46

the concept of transmedia, where you're like, Oh,

20:48

there's also going to be behind the scenes.

20:50

I knew I wanted to be a filmmaker

20:52

before I ever saw behind the scenes how

20:54

to video DVDs, TV, I didn't get a

20:56

DVD player until I was in film school.

20:59

So I had already moved to Los Angeles

21:01

before the concept of watching ancillary media in

21:03

support of like, how something was I already

21:05

knew I wanted to be a filmmaker before

21:07

I read my first IMDB trivia page. Yeah,

21:09

I remember it was the Godfather. And I

21:11

was like, Holy shit, there's all this stuff

21:13

about that. I had no idea that like

21:15

the Godfather was special and that not every

21:17

film would have 480 trivia entries. But I

21:22

remember just reading it and reading it

21:24

and reading it being like there's so much here. So

21:27

I I'm probably in that last wave

21:29

of people that very much just had

21:32

the end product of

21:34

cinema. Yeah, just had the like, Oh,

21:37

this is the thing. And I was curious about

21:39

that. But I had no avenues whatsoever

21:41

into any behind

21:44

the scenes video, any content, any

21:47

interviews, anything, like none of

21:49

that existed in my youth.

21:52

My entry point in that in sort

21:54

of that behind the scenes content, it was

21:57

always what was living within

21:59

the VHS. So sometimes

22:01

before there'd be a little teaser, sometimes

22:03

after. And

22:06

the sort of entry point for me, I

22:09

think starts with Shirley Temple. I

22:12

believe my grandparents had a whole box

22:14

set of all the Shirley Temple movies

22:17

and they give me one for every holiday.

22:19

So I was sort of being piecemeal

22:22

fed these stories and

22:24

they would always have sort of

22:26

a teaser before and after, but

22:29

I never was

22:32

one to be like, you know, thinking

22:34

about the process of making

22:36

the movies necessarily beyond seeing the behind

22:38

the scenes stuff. But I think I

22:41

connected so much as a

22:43

kid with the idea of

22:45

being inserted into these stories. And

22:47

I was very, very drawn to these stories

22:50

with kids where the stakes

22:52

were high and the stakes

22:55

were real. And

22:57

there was this unpacking of emotions and this

22:59

true darkness in a lot of these older

23:03

films. And the other thing

23:05

I watched a lot were the old Little Rascals, where,

23:08

you know, these kids, these kids

23:10

against these mean adults. And I

23:12

was very drawn to that darkness.

23:14

And I remember very

23:16

viscerally playing pretend, but playing as if

23:19

I were in a movie. So somebody

23:21

was watching me and I'd be going

23:23

through these movie

23:25

like scenarios where like, well, all my

23:27

parents are dead and I am alone

23:30

and I have to survive. And

23:33

that was, I think, my

23:35

first schematic for ultimately

23:37

being a director. I was also a very

23:39

bossy little kid who would make people play

23:41

other parts. So, you know, if I was

23:44

at Nicole Wilberdean's house as

23:47

a guest, I'd say, okay, you be the boy, I'd be

23:49

the girl and we're going to play this

23:51

scenario out. And like that was like, and then

23:53

if she was at my house, I'd be like,

23:55

okay, it's my house. So you be the boy, I'll

23:57

be the girl. We play out the

23:59

scenario. It very clearly had a lot of taste but it was

24:01

a lot of like. Following. The

24:04

story trajectory of these darker said stories

24:06

and other one that comes to mind

24:08

is the Secret Garden and where it's

24:10

like these things where they are hidden

24:12

secrets in it's all these characters withholding

24:14

information and that drama and character layers

24:16

like I was. Put. It

24:19

with these like dark overhangs like I

24:21

was always. Claim that outs.

24:23

I don't think it was until

24:25

I was in middle school and

24:27

I was watching the Royal Tenenbaums

24:30

by myself sneaking it. did I?

24:33

Start. To think that it's possible

24:35

that I could potentially. Crossed.

24:38

Something and seen the mechanics of.

24:41

And I put about this before, but

24:43

I remember this thoroughly ceiling. The

24:45

that. The. Pain of Luke

24:48

Wilson character when he

24:50

is attempting suicide and.

24:53

Being. Feeling that pain but also

24:55

feeling this curiosity because it was

24:57

says stylized in that marriage. Which.

24:59

Was so bizarre. Was. So

25:02

satisfying an interesting to me. And that's when

25:04

I said to be like oh you can

25:06

sickness saying that said. Aesthetically appealing

25:08

in a way that is so

25:10

unexpected and mary it with this

25:12

darkness. And that's when I started

25:14

to like. Create.

25:17

Create outside of just plain pretend

25:19

and and and it's always comes

25:21

back to this idea of. Putting

25:25

myself in the shoes of the protagonist

25:27

and being in this dark place in

25:29

that visceral connection and I think there

25:31

is like and escapism that I got

25:33

as a kid. That I continue

25:36

to come back to. I think that's why whenever I'm

25:38

creating something, it's always like. Starts.

25:40

From a very dark character place with

25:42

lots of layers of cigarettes and. And.

25:45

I go back. Actually recently

25:47

watched. The Secret Garden and I'm

25:49

like this is. dark and

25:51

weird and this again the stakes are real

25:53

the very first thing that happens is their

25:55

parents die in a fire and she stuff

25:58

under a bed and it's beautiful and And

26:00

I like actually am kind of nostalgic

26:02

for that time where the

26:05

we weren't sanitizing kids stories We

26:07

were letting letting them Letting

26:09

the kids sit with it and I think that's healthy Yeah,

26:13

so I'll give you both a follow-up question to make it even

26:15

harder Here you

26:17

have let's say you have a hypothetical friend and they're

26:19

like, oh, I'm not really into movies Like

26:21

what should I what should I watch to get

26:24

more into the cinema if you will? What

26:26

are you going like what how do you show them? What

26:28

do you show them? They have your friend like if you're

26:30

gonna like go back in time and talk to young Gigi

26:33

Is there a wet like is there a movie you

26:35

would show her sooner or different things like that or

26:37

young Charles? Young Charles sounds like a

26:39

young child Have

26:41

you young Sheldon for sure? Young

26:44

Charles, I mean first off what

26:47

how do you end up with a friend who's

26:49

not into movies? I don't you know what? It's

26:51

all LSE. Yeah, exactly Yeah

26:55

So I don't love them, you know, yeah my

26:57

my brother who is a

26:59

sophomore in college. He Said

27:04

he didn't really like movies that much like we

27:06

we sat him down and forced him to watch

27:08

Jurassic Park and He

27:10

wasn't loving it and I think and meanwhile my

27:13

dad's like standing in the kitchen watching and scared

27:15

But doesn't want to get close because he's too

27:17

scared He fights very easily but for

27:19

Luke I I took him and I forced

27:21

him to see parasite in theaters so

27:24

something that I think for

27:26

somebody who's wary of Movies

27:29

I or cynical of them I

27:31

think I like to you

27:33

know show them something that's tongue-in-cheek and

27:35

dark and weird and Luke says

27:37

it's his favorite movie I don't know how many other

27:40

movies he's seen But you know,

27:42

he has watched he has watched but I I

27:44

think something I try to show them something That's

27:47

modern and self-aware Yeah,

27:49

that's an interesting question I

27:51

had never really thought about that but it is sort of

27:53

a challenge to think like oh you're Either

27:55

you're very into like specific forms of television

27:57

or you're very into video games and what?

28:00

What is your gateway drug to recognizing

28:02

cinema as a thing? The first movie

28:04

that comes to mind is actually, the

28:07

reason why it comes to mind is it came out when I

28:09

was in college and I remember a friend watched

28:11

it and I remember her talking about it later and

28:13

it was clear it was the first movie that

28:16

she was like, wait, there's more

28:18

to this movie than just like,

28:21

and it was being John Malkovich. And she got like

28:23

obsessed with it. She went back and saw it again

28:25

like a month later in theaters because that was back

28:27

when art movies could play in theaters for like three

28:29

months. I think it is a good movie in that

28:31

it works very well on a surface level of being

28:33

very funny and it's got movie stars and they're doing

28:36

stuff in Malkovich's hilarious, but there's also subtext and nuance

28:38

and themes and there's stuff to unpack and dig into

28:40

and I think that could be a good gateway drug.

28:43

So like a 90s kind of like we've got

28:45

our celebrities but we're trying to do something a little

28:47

different. We're trying to do, we're trying to like be

28:50

more interesting but it sort of makes

28:52

fun of itself and it

28:54

recognizes the potential to be pretentious and dances

28:56

with it. I think there's something interesting in

28:58

that. I mean, the real danger

29:00

is yeah, if I had a friend who was like, I'm

29:03

not interested in the pretentious movies you're into and I only

29:05

wanna watch like, I

29:07

don't know what I would make fun of, it is a tricky

29:09

thing because you know, I mean, I'm sure everybody

29:12

saw it, went around to people or everyone knows I

29:14

like the Fast and the Furious movies. So everyone sent

29:16

me screenshots of Chris Nolan talking about how much he

29:18

likes them and I was like, of course

29:20

he likes them. Chris Nolan loves cinema and the Fast and the

29:22

Furious movies are cinema. And it's

29:25

like, yeah, Tokyo Drift or Fast Five would

29:28

also be on my list of like, let us watch, like if

29:30

someone said to me they didn't watch movies I would be like,

29:32

well, we have to watch Tokyo Drift and you have to tell

29:34

me that again. Cause I cannot imagine

29:36

a human with two

29:39

lungs, two ears and two eyes

29:41

and a heart not loving

29:44

Tokyo Drift. Like I don't even like

29:46

cars, I'm a biker but Tokyo

29:48

Drift is just like, it's cinema and

29:52

magnificent cinema. So

29:54

I, you know, yeah, that is an interesting question. I don't

29:56

run into, I mean, I teach at the film school and

29:59

I live in Brooklyn. So I don't run into a

30:01

lot of the like I don't really and I spent the rest of

30:03

my life in LA like People like

30:05

movies, but you're right. There are those people out there who

30:07

like I don't really like this. I put him What

30:10

about a short pier nearby to tell them

30:12

they could take a long walk on you

30:14

know, it is something I go

30:16

back. I'll go back to my childhood again. This is just gonna

30:18

be my therapy for the week But I

30:20

remember my mom sometimes she would go out of town for

30:22

work for the weekends and we'd I Have

30:25

a brother me my brother my dad my dad would

30:27

make the one dinner He knew how to make which

30:29

was he called hellerman hash, but it was just fake

30:32

beans and hot dogs You

30:35

know and then we would go rent movies

30:38

to watch, you know And he always said he's

30:40

like these are the movies your mom We don't

30:42

have to tell her what we watch because she's

30:44

not interested in these kinds of movies But it's

30:46

because they're rated R in enemy. No, it was

30:48

fully like like mom's away Exactly

30:51

and I like to think you remember the weekend

30:53

we watched the lawnmower man in Terminator

30:55

and I'm just like Weird

30:59

the lawnmower man is and how being like a

31:01

child I was like, I don't get this at

31:03

all But I of course understood the

31:05

Terminator it was terrifying and everyone, you know,

31:07

I go back and I think like Something

31:11

contemporary works. I would find something that feels

31:13

like modern ish, but they believe but it's

31:15

like Oh, you should see this because it's

31:17

part of the cultural lexicon, right? Pairsite's a

31:19

fun pic because like oh like at

31:21

the time and I still think you know, partially

31:24

it's part of it's part of existing You should know

31:26

this, you know, and that's why I go back

31:28

to like the Godfather, right? It's like, okay like That

31:32

that's a great movie But it's also long so it's hard to

31:34

get someone to sit for that long to

31:36

watch something like that So right I

31:39

had to pick anything. I do think it's like

31:41

what's a short, you know at like what's

31:43

an action movie? That's that's there in two hours and

31:45

I'll literally go back to like this

31:47

or remembering the Terminator as a kid I'll

31:50

be back, you know all these things that

31:52

you know, the practical effects. So it's either

31:54

that or Jaws, right? I think Jaws

31:57

is a movie that feels universal. That's

31:59

classic enough but with modern enough

32:01

storytelling that you see it bridges

32:04

both things. And it'd be hard

32:06

to pick against Spielberg in that category, right? But

32:09

if I had to encounter an

32:11

alien from another planet or a Gen

32:14

Z person who didn't like movies, those

32:16

are the picks. I think it's how do you get your

32:18

hooks in them early and do different things? And one

32:21

of the one

32:23

of the laments I have probably

32:25

is the more, you know,

32:27

the younger generations going more

32:30

towards this sort of minutia of watching

32:32

movies, right? Like Paramount released Mean Girls

32:34

on TikTok and it was just, you

32:36

know, let's say like 100 TikToks that

32:39

you could watch one minute of the movie on, you

32:41

know, a minute and 30 seconds and I like union

32:44

pay aside and residuals. I just, it kind of

32:47

like broke me a little bit because what's amazing

32:49

about Mean Girls is how much it builds and

32:51

how much you feel like you're on a roller

32:53

coaster and watching a minute of it, you're like,

32:56

wait, who's Katie, Patty, right? Like, what's going on?

32:58

What are these things? It

33:00

is tough. And I go to a lot of

33:02

movies in Los Angeles and I like frequently don't

33:04

see a lot of young people there. But I will say like one

33:06

of the best times I had recently was seeing anyone

33:09

but you, the Glen Powell, Sidney Sweeney,

33:11

and it was packed with people, young

33:13

people, like, I guess who loves

33:15

Sidney Sweeney and love Glen. And I was like, Oh,

33:17

it is fun. It's fun to hear them squeal

33:19

at these rom com moments or different things.

33:21

Like, it is like the joy of movie

33:23

going. And I hope they keep going in

33:26

packs because you couldn't get that at home, right?

33:29

If you're watching with your girlfriends, your guy friends

33:31

or your mixed group of

33:33

friends at home on your couch,

33:35

like that's not, it'd be a fun

33:37

movie to watch, but it's special in theaters, you

33:39

know, like that's why I made 250 million bucks.

33:41

Like, it's fun to watch with a

33:43

group and I hope more people try to

33:45

access that, you know, find that

33:48

access point or entry point, especially the

33:50

younger generations. Shout out

33:52

to all the matinee loners

33:54

that I watched it with where we also

33:57

laughed and squealed and had a good time. And like

33:59

I came out. Like me them about

34:01

fun. Experiences.

34:03

Together and then there is one grandparent couple with

34:05

a grin solder. there was like they were all.

34:07

They turn to each other for that. some fun.

34:10

I think you bring up a really good points

34:12

Jason though. like if you're trying to find him

34:14

and free movie or like a bring somebody in.

34:17

Movie yeah Make sure that it's

34:19

not something that you love because

34:21

of like a nostalgia thing right

34:23

as that is not gonna wind

34:26

farms and influence. people into movies.

34:28

Like it has to be sending that. They're.

34:30

Going be surprised and delighted by

34:32

and that and then and then

34:34

maybe follow up with like the.

34:37

The. One way I can say now you like this

34:39

movie. You're gonna love this one!

34:43

Yeah. Absolutely. Grey's

34:46

Anatomy. The most iconic things where

34:48

the drama is that along with

34:50

answers to the biggest cliffhanger were

34:53

from her that will zone and

34:55

ring finally find happiness together. Meredith

34:57

returns along with fences like Arizona

34:59

You Can Now Sir and every

35:01

episode of Ways Ever on Hulu

35:03

and new episodes next day. What's

35:06

new episodes of Grey's Anatomy? Thursdays

35:08

at Nine, Eight Central on A

35:10

B C and Stream on Hulu.

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35:45

This. Are pivot into survivor time.

35:48

I. Think. Okay

35:50

said. This is a segment and it's a

35:53

short segment that we're doing during the season

35:55

Forty Six of Survivor, and it's what lessons

35:57

can we get. From. This. Nine.

36:00

narrative show about Survivor.

36:02

Here's my takeaway. In

36:05

this week, there was a character, or a

36:07

character, a human being who was real and

36:09

was living in a

36:13

totally different world than everyone

36:15

else in the show. In

36:19

this heightened drama, this is just a

36:21

person who feels emotions and

36:23

is so psyched to be on

36:26

Survivor, but I just don't think is

36:28

playing the game strategically. It's going into

36:30

this dynamic. I'll say maybe my

36:32

least favorite human of all time

36:34

to ever be on the show.

36:37

It's not fun to watch,

36:39

and it's also creating drama

36:41

that doesn't feel earned at

36:43

all. So I think that brings me

36:45

to a lesson about every

36:49

character. Obviously, there's

36:51

situations where you

36:53

have the odd man out, you have the straight man, you

36:55

have the crazy person. If

36:59

somebody is feeling these extreme feelings

37:01

and it's not earned, and everyone

37:03

else is like, what's going on?

37:06

It just feels soapy and boring.

37:09

I think that's a good one. One of the things I

37:12

thought is this week, the

37:14

person you just talked about, everybody,

37:18

they're on a chopping block. If you can't stand

37:20

a person, you're going home. If you're stuck on

37:22

an island, that's the person going home. But Survivor,

37:24

what I think it does well is,

37:26

it has unpredictable twists and turns. What happened was

37:28

someone on a different tribe hurt their arm

37:31

and had to be medically disqualified. So this

37:33

person just gets to stick around another week.

37:35

I'm sure the producer somewhere are fist pumping

37:38

because they know, hate watching

37:40

and having a big loud characters, whatever.

37:43

I thought it was like, what a twist

37:45

that you couldn't foresee coming that was

37:47

earned. This guy

37:50

falls on his arm or whatever. You're like, uh-oh,

37:52

here it is. Not even dramatic.

37:54

He sleeps funny on his arm. He

37:57

sleeps strong on his arm and pinches the nerve where

37:59

he doesn't work anymore. Now new horror

38:01

that I'll live with every night. Fact that

38:03

you know that that's sort of unpredictable twisted

38:05

sales of a bad person? Out we see

38:08

that Alzheimer? that happens a Game of Thrones

38:10

frequently. Like? Isn't that something we see like

38:12

that has a grill? narratives? Application

38:14

and some analysts. he had people do enough. I

38:16

like sir shows A Game of Thrones does it

38:19

all the time rights ago at this Person's Gonna

38:21

Die but actually they get bailed out as. Soon.

38:24

As he's doing this, where are you know? We

38:26

like all these people. they got to the Sept

38:28

she blows about whatever makes what he wanted influenza.

38:30

This may lead to be enough. You're.

38:33

Always find these landing points I think. When.

38:35

I'm watching his reality shows. I'm

38:37

always thinking, whoa, what's. Their. Cuts

38:39

to make us feel the same motions

38:41

that film and tv I write like

38:43

term that narrative stuff is like what

38:45

are those beats that translate or that

38:48

are when quote universal they think. What

38:50

You said. Is. To write that big chair

38:52

to with Sega motion? like what? Are. Like

38:55

we. Have a visceral reaction? That person? I

38:57

mean, I. I. Think about like movies

39:00

and Tv and like villains and food you

39:02

hate Whose weird the scene dune Two Thousand

39:04

Butler Cherokee just like. This guy's a

39:06

freak in I like that collective a D C

39:08

or fine. You. Feel the same things

39:10

as a give them big things to do and

39:13

then it's also like how to use as big

39:15

things to advance. His character is now uses his

39:17

van. It's quite. That. I think of your

39:19

produce that tv show your love in it is the

39:22

like out this is. I could put him in every

39:24

promo so. I don't watch Survivor

39:26

but I will say I work in an

39:28

office and everyone was discussing this week's episode here

39:30

this morning. So. For. Whatever

39:32

it's worth, this week seem to be a big

39:34

week for people. In. Our

39:36

like two weeks same who doubts where where

39:38

who knows we're supposed? To

39:41

do watch the movie last I get to go

39:43

on as a date. Oh I don't like I

39:46

see the new hello or as will be a

39:48

problem Mister Amazing Tilda Swinton performance. He's fantastic. You

39:50

know it's it's. The. Biggest lesson is

39:52

just like. The beauty and power

39:54

of observation about the world's like there's

39:56

many wonderful things about the movie. But.

39:59

One of the thing. The movie does

40:01

exceptionally well is it observes?

40:03

Very closely and with detail a world

40:05

that we know and have not seen.

40:08

In such detail so you know it is

40:10

about. An. Immigrant from El

40:12

Salvador, trying to survive a New York and

40:15

taking a job working for a art critics.

40:17

Who. Was most successful in another New

40:20

York. And is still living in this

40:22

me or. Driving the bands

40:24

they bought when they were successful

40:26

twenty five years ago. And

40:29

the detail were. Duel

40:31

I I will frequently get annoyed at messy detail

40:33

work in a movie like I i walk and

40:35

removing wall behind by we loved it and I'll

40:38

be I can on car or like I mean

40:40

by that watch or like utter of like I

40:42

love production design and like one of the many

40:44

things the problem mister got right is the detail

40:46

work is phenomenal. So. Like you know,

40:48

there's a scene where they're trying to find something.

40:51

a man path for purse and everything in her

40:53

purse is perfection. And. More like. It

40:55

is just you know. these are the things

40:58

that make a. Fifteen. A

41:00

portrait of a place in time in

41:02

a way that gives you a sense

41:04

of and authenticity and connection. And

41:06

and feels real and like obviously the movie

41:08

is a fantasy. the big elaborate be effect

41:11

sequences. Craig's list is embodied in a in

41:13

the form of a person who talks like

41:15

a fantasy but I feel like those fantastical

41:17

elements worth so much better because of the

41:19

grounding in reality for the moment that are

41:21

so firmly grounded. I'm not this is the

41:24

name of the movie so extending the things

41:26

but there was an action movies like send

41:28

years ago sauce with i thought a fantastic

41:30

suffered cdr but there was like up a

41:32

story from it. were some people like six

41:34

a thing. And they

41:37

clearly just included the screenwriting templates. We

41:39

screenwriting you can totally right type of

41:41

like you care to six as a

41:43

little thing with this or whatever. But.

41:45

Then you should hire a consultant to like

41:47

help you really violent. Exactly what they should

41:50

do. and they clearly just shot the screenwriting

41:52

temp. The. Clearly like no

41:54

one on several staffing think as

41:57

a little. And I was like

41:59

battle was fought. get this right and it said

42:01

so much about the whole film to me. Yeah.

42:04

It's like, no, the CGI

42:06

element that they're fighting against would feel

42:08

way more real to me if you

42:10

made them fixing the broken machine feel

42:12

more real. Yeah. If you cemented that

42:15

in actual reality that made sense, I

42:17

would buy the other more because

42:20

it's about that. So there's much

42:22

to recommend problem is the performances

42:24

are great. There's some true

42:27

laugh out loud moments, but the big takeaway for

42:29

filmmakers is just detail work. It's

42:31

just observation. It's just a

42:34

filmmaker should never be bored because you should walk out on

42:36

the street and just take notes on what you see because

42:39

you can recycle it into something where,

42:42

man, some of the observations, some of the things

42:46

are just so pure

42:49

about the movie and the

42:51

laser vision it has that I think

42:53

everybody should take that away for their

42:55

work. It's so

42:57

satisfying that exact thing when you're like,

42:59

yeah, they would have like

43:02

those 2007 Warby Parker glasses. Nothing

43:08

takes me out of it more when it's

43:11

wrong. I'm like, that

43:13

person would never or that woman would

43:15

never wear those heels to

43:17

this event where she has to walk around,

43:20

you idiots. Well, it can

43:22

also sometimes be really satisfying where

43:24

you're like, they wouldn't have that. Then halfway through the movie,

43:26

you're like, oh, that's why they have that. The

43:30

famous example of that is Lost when

43:32

season three or season four, they were doing

43:35

one of the Lost flashbacks and he had

43:37

the wrong phone. Like everybody, we

43:39

used to watch Lost together in film school or maybe

43:41

this after film school. I remember. I remember someone being

43:43

like, no,

43:46

they wouldn't have had that phone. That wouldn't have

43:48

existed. Then the end of the episode it turned out it

43:50

was a flash forward after the island. We all exploded. Incredible.

43:54

Shout out to our Stephen

43:56

Williams podcast interview, one of

43:59

the producers. of Lost. Oh,

44:01

this is, I want to come back

44:03

to the satisfying little, the satisfying

44:06

details of movies because there's so much

44:08

good stuff there. But shall

44:10

we wrap it up? Yeah.

44:14

Folks are on the internet. I'm not really on the

44:16

internet anymore. I'm kind of done with

44:18

it. Where are you guys on the internet? I'm

44:21

on Instagram at Lost in Graceland.

44:23

And tomorrow we have our Intimacy

44:25

Coordinator Roundtable, which is a fascinating

44:27

hour and a half long conversation

44:29

that I'd say is one of

44:31

our, you got to listen to

44:34

this, everyone. I

44:36

can't wait to listen to that. I know.

44:38

I'm pressing download now. I'm at

44:40

Jason Hellerman across the Twitters and the

44:42

or X's or whatever we're supposed to

44:44

call it now. And Jason at nofilmschool.com,

44:46

if you have questions

44:49

or comments or whatever, happy to,

44:51

happy to read. If you hate a director

44:53

or a movie we wrote about, I

44:56

don't care. You could save those emails. Someone wrote me

44:58

a really long email that we got on Saturday and

45:00

I thought I was in trouble for half of it

45:02

and the other half. I was like, oh, I like,

45:04

there's nothing I could do. If you don't like a

45:06

certain director and I wrote about it, write your

45:08

own article. That's all I've got for you. I

45:11

know you mentioned the email that you're listening. You

45:13

seem very lovely. I don't care. Right.

45:18

Your own article is such a great like come back.

45:21

I feel like the next time somebody hunks at me

45:23

in traffic, it would be like

45:25

write your own article. Yeah, do it.

45:27

Yeah. Incredible.