0:00

Welcome to the Ode to Joy podcast

0:02

, a show where we talk about joy how

0:04

do we cultivate it , how do we maintain

0:06

it and what are the things that get in the

0:09

way . I'm your host , elena

0:11

Vox , bringing you another part of our Season

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2 series , talking all about the interviews

0:15

, and this week we are talking with Sandra

0:17

Lorring , queer Witch , interdisciplinary

0:19

Artist , choreographer and Director

0:22

of Sadhana Center for Yoga

0:24

and Meditation . I hope you enjoy

0:26

.

0:28

Hello , my dear listener

0:31

, and welcome back to another

0:33

episode of the Ode to

0:35

Joy podcast . I'm your

0:37

host , Elena Vox , and with

0:39

me today I have the sincere pleasure

0:41

of inviting on my

0:44

new friend , Sandra Lorring

0:46

. Welcome , Sandra .

0:49

Hi Elena . Thank

0:51

you , I'm so honored and excited

0:53

to be here .

0:55

Such a pleasure to have you here on the show

0:57

. So for our listener

1:00

, can you just lock

1:02

us into ? Where in the world are

1:04

you joining us from today ?

1:06

Yes , I can . I am

1:08

on Stockbridge , Mohican

1:10

, Muncie Land , Hudson , New York , near

1:12

the Hudson River , which flows both ways

1:15

.

1:15

I actually didn't know that . Does the Hudson flow

1:18

both ways ? Yes , it does .

1:21

It's a river in estuary

1:23

. It's quite amazing . And

1:26

the original caretakers

1:28

canoed and fished and

1:30

honored and had a relationship

1:32

with the river very deeply .

1:34

I'd love to spend more time learning

1:37

from that river . That's really beautiful . I

1:39

only know a little bit about it and I

1:41

know that it's gone through quite a journey , in the last

1:43

few decades as well , of coming

1:46

back to life .

1:48

Yes , that's right , and it gives life

1:50

in so many ways .

1:52

Well , where you are is one

1:54

of really the most beautiful places

1:57

I have been to and it's for

1:59

our listener who's joining us . It's about a couple

2:01

of hours from New York City . I'm

2:03

joining you from Long Island right now and

2:06

I had the pleasure of going

2:09

up to Hudson my first time this

2:11

past New Year's and

2:14

my partner and I went up . We rented a little cabin

2:16

right in sort of in this little offshoot of

2:18

the river and , of course , we wanted

2:21

to go to some yoga classes . And

2:24

he's showing me all of these studios

2:27

and we find Sadhana and

2:30

I was like , oh yeah , that's the real

2:32

deal . And we got a chat and we found you and

2:34

I saw your picture and I was like I need to go

2:36

take class with Sandra . So

2:39

, for our listeners , sandra is

2:42

the director of Sadhana

2:44

, which is a Center for Yoga and Meditation

2:46

. She's 20 years old , which is

2:49

amazing . Congratulations

2:51

, thank you . We made it so far and

2:53

I have so many questions about that journey . A

2:57

little bit more about Sandra amazing

3:00

, amazing person . Sandra is

3:02

a queer witch . It's interdisciplinary

3:05

artist and choreographer , your

3:09

movement and somatic yoga instructor

3:12

. Lover of compost , which is

3:14

phenomenal , and

3:16

the upside down also very cool . An

3:19

enthusiast of herbal medicine , which I'd

3:21

love to hear more about as well , and

3:23

a steward of a fox and bird sanctuary

3:26

also amazing . And

3:30

Sandra is an active community organizer

3:32

, and I'd also love to hear

3:35

a little bit more about your work

3:37

with moving potential , which can you give us

3:39

a little sort of description

3:41

of what moving potential is as well ?

3:43

Sure and the

3:45

potential . Quite one of the loves of

3:47

my life is a program

3:50

that brings trauma-informed

3:52

yoga and mindfulness and dance to

3:54

those impacted by incarceration

3:58

and addiction and trauma . So

4:00

we work in local jails , prisons

4:03

, recovery centers , we

4:05

work with children with an incarcerated parent

4:07

and we work with people that are

4:09

reentering after being

4:11

incarcerated .

4:13

Very , very important work , and I'm very

4:15

I mean awe that this is also

4:17

something that's so crucial and very important

4:19

that you're bringing that to the world . So thank you

4:21

, You're welcome .

4:23

My , it gives me so much . I

4:25

could go on about that , yes .

4:28

Well , we have so many , so many avenues

4:30

Talk about like this . It's like

4:32

we're like the Hudson River there's so

4:34

many places to go , which

4:37

is absolutely wonderful and a very like juicy

4:40

, delicious place to be in that

4:42

lived so much life and that you

4:44

have so much wisdom that you carry with you . And

4:47

so the topic

4:49

of the day is the

4:51

intermuse , as we're talking about on season

4:53

two of the oh To Joy podcast . And

4:56

I guess , like my first question right off

4:58

the bat , when I talk about , when

5:00

I'm thinking about you and what I know of

5:03

you from just taking classes with you , would

5:05

you say like

5:08

what part of your yoga

5:10

teaching would you say is

5:12

how do I say ? Would you say it's

5:14

like the number one avenue

5:17

that your intermuse and your

5:19

creativity comes out of and

5:21

flows out of , or would you

5:23

sort of center a different

5:25

element of yourself , or is it kind of all

5:27

woven in together ?

5:29

Yeah , thank you for that question . I

5:31

think it is woven in together . I

5:34

am a dancer , choreographer

5:36

, before I began the

5:38

yoga journey , so there's

5:41

always been movement in

5:44

my life . And

5:46

then I stumbled into a yoga

5:48

class when I was on tour with

5:50

a dance company and I was like , ah

5:53

, this is great . And

5:56

I tend to be very impulsive and I dove

5:58

in very deeply and

6:01

went to India many times

6:03

and immersed myself and

6:05

I used to try to really keep things separate

6:07

, like this is dance and this is yoga

6:10

. And then at some point

6:12

, I think with the evolution of yoga

6:14

which I'm very happy about they

6:17

merged and I became

6:20

less concerned about boundaries

6:22

of these things . And I think that's

6:24

where many of us are

6:26

now , that somatics , trauma-informed

6:30

practices , yoga

6:32

practices , movement practices

6:34

are all in

6:36

a piece , you could say

6:38

so . They inform me

6:40

, they inspire me , they're

6:43

always catching up

6:45

with each other and leading

6:47

each other on to new rabbit

6:49

holes . I love to dive deep into

6:52

topics and explore

6:55

and continue to be engaged

6:57

, and that would be the

6:59

answer . I think that it is definitely

7:01

interwoven .

7:03

And I feel that just in the

7:06

practices that I got to have with you , that it's

7:08

sort of like this living , breathing

7:10

organism of a practice

7:12

that invites people

7:15

to really be in their own experience

7:17

and experience themselves

7:19

as this human animal in

7:22

a body . And

7:24

I was telling my partner and he's really

7:26

one year into his yoga journey , which is

7:28

very cute because he's so excited I

7:33

remember those

7:35

were the days but it's so

7:37

cute because he'll see some kind of wild

7:39

arm balance and he's a strong guy and he

7:41

wants to do all the fun fancy stuff . And

7:45

I'm so glad that I was able

7:47

to bring him to your class because I was trying

7:50

to explain to him , because your classes

7:52

, the way that you teach , is so I

7:55

want to say , like delicate and specific

7:57

and strong in

8:00

a way that I say you

8:02

really are a master teacher , because

8:04

you know , I tell him when we get

8:06

this opportunity to practice with these master

8:08

teachers , as you've learned the form so

8:11

well enough that you know

8:13

how to break the form .

8:14

Yeah , thank you for saying that . It's so

8:16

kind .

8:17

Yeah , and you bring in . It's

8:20

not just okay , ladies and gentlemen

8:22

, we're doing warrior one okay . And

8:26

making people kind of fit into this box

8:29

right , it just becomes

8:31

this free flowing kind of

8:33

movement that is , I think , so nourishing

8:35

and I think , allows people

8:37

to discover themselves in

8:39

a practice where they're not trying to fit themselves

8:42

into my body . Supposed to look like this

8:44

in this pose , but more about how do I feel

8:47

?

8:49

And I think because I've been doing yoga

8:51

for so long that I want

8:53

to teach a class that I would want to take . So

8:56

that's a tall order , because I'm picky . I'm

9:03

like I

9:05

learn a lot from classes that I don't like

9:07

and don't usually return

9:10

.

9:11

Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah

9:13

. Well , as they say , the only practices

9:16

you regret are the ones you don't do , so even

9:18

the ones we're going , you're like okay , so that wasn't

9:20

my favorite , but we learned things and

9:24

, yeah , I think what you serve is is what I call

9:26

like gourmet yoga . Yeah

9:30

, yeah .

9:32

Oh yeah , I don't know exactly

9:35

what does that mean ?

9:36

it's just tasty and delicious . You know , it's

9:41

the kind of practice where it's

9:43

very similar to the kind of practice that I teach , where

9:46

it's

9:48

like a conversation with the breath and the body

9:50

. And I love also your

9:52

queuing because it

9:54

gives people the opportunity to get curious

9:56

about how their body wants to be in a shape

9:59

, and I love your suggestions . It's , it's

10:01

, it's never Okay , we're

10:03

going to 100% do this and put

10:06

your foot here and the alignment . You know , your hips must

10:08

be squared and which , again

10:10

, I think it's important perhaps to

10:13

learn certain forms , yes , in some

10:15

ways , yes , and

10:17

then to just give people the permission

10:19

to , yeah , treat it almost like a

10:21

dance and also

10:23

just the permission that you allow

10:26

really the entire room to

10:28

be in their experience . So you

10:30

know , when I'm teaching , people kind of make fun of my

10:32

friends , make fun of me . They're always roasting me . They're

10:34

like we're always moaning in your classes

10:36

.

10:37

Oh yeah .

10:39

Well , we are definitely kindred spirits . As

10:41

soon as I saw you , I was like who

10:44

is that ? And then you helped

10:46

me . When I was like wait a minute , we

10:48

left something out and you did it , I

10:50

was like thank you so much .

10:54

Because it's the stuff of yoga teachers . Nightmares

10:56

when we're laying in bed at night . We go oh , we forgot

10:58

to do that . That was on that

11:00

side . Yeah

11:03

, yeah , so it's gourmet

11:05

yoga and I just , I highly recommend anyone

11:08

who's listening if you're in the New York area , 100%

11:10

get yourself up to Hudson . It's accessible

11:13

by train . Go , yes , it is what's

11:15

on . I would welcome

11:17

you . Wow , ok , so

11:20

let's . I'd love to bring it back to

11:22

your origins in dance

11:24

and can you give

11:26

us a little bit of a story of of

11:29

how you got into dance ? Like , bring us into

11:31

baby Sandra zone . Like when did

11:33

you first , kind of when did you feel the

11:35

muse on the wind that you you heard

11:37

the call and you might want to move my body

11:40

.

11:41

Well , it is a little funny in that I

11:44

took a few ballet classes

11:46

I guess there's a picture of me as a rabbit

11:48

and when I was four and

11:51

I came home one day

11:53

and I said to my mother , I'm not

11:56

going back , they don't

11:58

ever let us rest . So

12:02

then I never went back until

12:04

I was working with

12:06

a beautiful company in California

12:09

. Those were the days when California

12:11

gave a grant to artists

12:13

to teach and then the grant was

12:16

also for young people to take

12:18

their classes . So I was

12:20

in class with a man named

12:22

Michael Gonzalez , beautiful artist

12:24

who's no longer with us , and

12:27

he has a company

12:29

called the Mime Caravan and invited

12:32

me to be part of the Mime Caravan

12:34

. And we did in the style of bread

12:36

and puppet and Meredith among

12:38

giant puppets and fantasy

12:41

. We started a parade

12:43

in Santa Barbara , the summer solstice parade

12:45

, which gave . We then gave

12:47

to the city and I think they're like ten thousand

12:50

people that come every year . Now it's continued

12:52

since and one

12:55

of the women in the company said come

12:57

and take this dance class , he's really

12:59

cool . And I went and I was like

13:01

that happens once in a while

13:03

, like lightning strikes , and

13:06

I'm like this is it . And

13:08

I studied with him , richard

13:11

Burroughs , and he left Santa

13:14

Barbara to . He got a job at UC

13:16

Riverside teaching dance and I said I'm

13:18

going to follow him . And so

13:20

I went because I had been taking

13:22

a gap period from high

13:24

school . I was like I'm not going to college . And then I was

13:26

like I'm going to college now Because

13:29

rich is there . And I danced with him and

13:31

I'm very impulsive again . I did

13:33

one semester and I moved to New York . I'm

13:36

going to be a dancer . And New

13:38

York said no , you're not , we

13:41

don't even care about

13:43

you at all . And I cried a lot

13:46

. And then he we were talking

13:48

on the phone and rich said I started a

13:50

dance company in California . Do you want to come

13:52

back ? And I said I'm on the

13:54

plane and I finished my degree

13:56

and I danced with him around Southern California

13:58

and then I moved back to New

14:00

York and the

14:03

experience has started flowing

14:05

. I got into different companies . I'm

14:07

a very magpie person

14:09

, anything that shiny . I danced

14:11

with many , many choreographers

14:14

I'm very grateful

14:16

and they they have an imprint

14:18

on my body to this day

14:21

and I then became an

14:23

organizer . So I started an improvisation

14:25

festival and I started underground

14:28

dance and

14:30

I never looked back

14:32

. You know , I'm still making work , I'm still

14:34

choreographing . And then on tour

14:37

, like I said , I stumbled into this yoga

14:39

class . It was called a stronger prep

14:41

. Oh my , you know , they weren't

14:44

really allowed to teach a stong

14:46

unless you were given permission . And

14:48

I was like this is amazing

14:50

. And she was Australian . And she

14:53

said , yes , it's very beautiful . And I said

14:55

do you know if there's anything like this in New York ? And

14:57

she said yes , there's a man named Eddie Stern

14:59

. And so I found Eddie

15:01

. All this was underground , you

15:04

know , there wasn't a yoga studio on every

15:06

block . There were no yoga teacher

15:08

trainings . I found Eddie

15:10

very impulsively . I studied

15:12

for a little bit . I went to India and

15:14

to study with Patabi Joyce and

15:16

just , of course , those of you in the know

15:19

, I do not condone

15:21

the behavior of Patabi Joyce

15:23

. The practice is beautiful . I did it

15:25

for a few years and then

15:27

I'm too much of a magpie , so

15:29

I just went out from there

15:31

and started piecing things together

15:34

and exploring . I did a lot of different

15:36

styles of yoga while

15:38

I was still dancing .

15:40

Oh yes , You've introduced

15:42

a lot of really beautiful little rivulets

15:45

that I'd love to go down

15:48

, because , well , it's very interesting

15:50

, I think , when it comes

15:52

to someone's yoga journey is

15:54

how people come to it and

15:56

then sort of the paths

15:59

that they take and how it really informs

16:01

them and their movement practice . And I

16:04

love how you said that you're this

16:06

magpie , that you just kind of find the next shiny

16:08

thing and you follow it , and I think

16:10

it's really beautiful to continue to follow that

16:13

sort of inspiration

16:15

. And then also just the fact

16:17

that you were

16:19

there , you were like boots on

16:21

the ground before

16:25

yoga became what it is , and

16:28

that I'm super , super

16:30

, super interested in

16:33

, and I hope that

16:35

we're able to kind of like follow this and

16:37

flow down this river in a way that

16:39

is really nourishing to talk about

16:41

for you and for me . I'm just so curious

16:44

really about

16:47

you know , you were on the scene , like you

16:49

said , when there wasn't a yoga teacher training

16:51

and there weren't . You know you had to really find

16:54

the teachers . And then the teachers

16:56

I'm curious like the teachers that you found

16:58

, because they were so few and far between they

17:00

. I'm assuming that they must have had

17:02

to have been very highly vetted

17:04

and had really put in the work , and was

17:06

it ? Was it kind of more of like a like you had

17:09

to sort of knock on the door to be let

17:11

in , kind of a thing , or yeah , you

17:13

had to go sit outside the door for a while until

17:15

they let you in .

17:16

Basically , yeah , yes , it was

17:18

like that and there I didn't know

17:20

that much but I , because of my movement

17:22

background and dance background , I knew

17:25

what felt right in my body

17:27

. So I would trust people

17:29

because of that and I

17:31

had a certain amount of faith and

17:33

confidence about trusting

17:36

that transmission which

17:38

is so magical to me . How

17:41

do you transmit a physical

17:43

practice from one person to another ? And

17:46

the Ashdanga tradition you know they're

17:48

not showing you , they're speaking

17:51

and guiding you through this

17:53

practice that you memorize and then it becomes

17:55

your own , which was very rich , so

17:58

I could take it on tour and I could do it in hotel

18:00

rooms and it really

18:02

informed a foundation

18:04

, I think , for a practice

18:07

, because a lot of people are like I'd like

18:09

to do things on my own , but I don't know where to

18:11

begin . And I totally relate

18:13

and it's it's a learning

18:15

things by heart . You know that saying

18:18

is very powerful . It's like you learn

18:20

it by heart and then you

18:22

, then it becomes part

18:24

of you .

18:26

Yeah , people talk about muscle memory

18:28

, but I love that even more . Like you learn

18:31

it by heart and then it becomes a part of you , so

18:33

that , like I said , you've learned the form

18:35

and then , once you've built this

18:38

deep connection with your body , then you can

18:40

sort of begin to color outside the lines

18:42

a bit .

18:43

A bit for sure , and I think , because

18:45

I've always created movement

18:48

and art and made up songs

18:51

as a child , and I love

18:53

how , as a child , you go into this

18:55

imaginal world that

18:57

everybody supports and then

18:59

, as soon as you get to be an adult , it's like oh

19:01

, by the way , that's over

19:04

, it wasn't real

19:06

, it's like what ? So

19:10

I definitely rejected

19:12

that , but that creativity

19:14

took over . It's like I'm

19:17

not . I'm not one to to

19:19

repeat . As you know from taking a few

19:21

classes , I don't repeat myself

19:24

much . I mean , of course , there

19:26

are things that always are the same

19:28

and you're different when you do them . But

19:31

love to

19:33

put things together in new ways

19:35

, shake things up , novelty

19:37

as a practice of mindfulness

19:39

.

19:41

And I love that you've also maintained

19:44

this sense of enchantment with

19:46

life .

19:47

I have Wildly . So I don't

19:49

know why , but I'm just

19:51

as excited about teaching now

19:54

as I was when I started . And when I

19:56

started , I think back again , there

19:58

was no yoga teacher trainings . I'd been teaching dance

20:00

. So I was like , well , I'm going to teach yoga , started

20:03

in the gym at NYU and the cold

20:05

basement with fluorescent lights , and

20:07

I don't really know what I was teaching

20:09

. To be honest , I look back and

20:11

I'm like , but

20:16

I think I probably knew a little bit more than

20:18

the students who came Right , and

20:21

then the chanting went along with that

20:23

too . I'm a person that loves to

20:25

sing . There's a song that I hear

20:27

from the universe as well . So

20:30

I began chanting without any

20:32

accompaniment and I just

20:34

had to do it and people were like , oh

20:38

boy , we were doing the Gayatri

20:40

mantra and , I think

20:42

, loving it . I think there was a longing

20:44

that people have . I

20:47

think there is a longing that people have to

20:49

be connected , to be connected

20:51

to the animate forces in the

20:53

world , to sing

20:55

back to the universe , which is always

20:57

singing to us , and

20:59

that idea you mentioned about the

21:01

inner muse . I'm kind

21:03

of a person that loves to

21:06

understand the word that

21:08

I'm trying to figure out . So I was

21:10

thinking about what is a

21:12

muse , and

21:14

I want to kind of tease

21:16

that apart a little bit . I was thinking

21:18

that a muse , is it a

21:20

person ? Does it have

21:22

to be a person to be a muse

21:24

? I think it's a place where

21:27

there's creativity , where there's a

21:29

shared interest and an exploration

21:31

of falling apart , of dissolving

21:34

, of floating and then remembering

21:38

. And there's an offering about

21:40

feeding the muse . Like you

21:42

would feed your demons , you could feed the muse

21:45

. And if it isn't a person , if

21:47

it's more than a human , then

21:49

the trees become a muse and the river

21:51

becomes a muse and the breath

21:53

becomes a muse . However it

21:55

could be , then anything . So

21:58

it doesn't have to be limited to

22:01

that small definition of

22:03

there's a person that becomes

22:05

your muse . That's my reflection

22:08

on that . Teasing that apart a little

22:10

bit , I love that , yeah , and

22:13

when you invited me , you said something about genius

22:15

and I

22:18

really wanted to dive

22:20

into that word . What

22:22

does that mean ? And in the ancient

22:25

times , genius was

22:27

something that was other

22:29

than human . It was like a force that

22:32

went through you . So you don't have

22:34

to be so narcissistic

22:36

about your creativity that

22:38

there was another force

22:41

that you could want either

22:43

share credit with

22:45

for your wonderful creation . Or

22:47

you could also absolve credit

22:49

and say I guess my genius

22:52

was lame . Today , and

22:58

also the definition for me of genius

23:00

would be that it's something

23:03

that one loves

23:05

, that to be loved , to

23:07

feel love , is genius

23:09

. Or it could be the traditional

23:11

definition of that . You

23:13

get so good at something that other

23:15

people notice your genius

23:18

. They're a genius . Well , we're all

23:20

geniuses .

23:21

Thank you . Thank you for teasing that apart

23:23

and yes , that's very much part

23:27

of the conversation and I'm always curious to see

23:29

how my guests kind of interact

23:32

with this idea , because

23:34

I like to view

23:37

it sometimes as sort

23:39

of like something outside

23:41

of myself , something to inspire my

23:43

artistry , my creativity

23:46

, and I'll kind of get on these

23:48

concepts or ideas or feelings

23:50

. I'm like a Francophile

23:53

, so I love the French language and then I'll kind of go

23:55

into French

23:57

art and film and then I think

23:59

it has the ability to sort of transport

24:02

you and put you in a different mind space and

24:04

, from that place , creating

24:07

from there . And I love also what you said about

24:09

using nature as a muse , because

24:11

it's constantly having a

24:13

conversation with us if we , I

24:16

think , can get quiet enough to understand

24:19

that we're always in this co-creation

24:21

with it . Right In the moment we are . Yeah .

24:25

Being able to listen . Yeah

24:28

, yeah .

24:29

And sometimes I think people find that a little

24:31

funny .

24:31

Of course , you know what I ?

24:34

Of course . So I

24:36

talk about sitting beneath

24:38

a tree or having a conversation with a tree

24:40

or a leaf , or breathing with

24:42

a tree and listen , don't knock it till

24:44

you try it , because they have things to teach

24:47

us .

24:48

There are ancestors they're way older

24:50

than we are , first of all and they

24:52

I often go to a tree and

24:54

instead of asking a question , I'll say what

24:57

do you want me to know ? I guess that

24:59

is a question , but just listening

25:01

, and they always are so generous

25:03

, they're like think about this , feel

25:06

this here now . How

25:08

can I age gracefully like

25:11

you have ? That's a big one for

25:13

me at this point in my

25:15

life . It's like I need some

25:17

guidance .

25:19

And how interesting also , just that the trees

25:21

have different wisdom for us at different times

25:23

in our lives , different aspects of nature

25:25

. But I mean the trees , they really get

25:28

me . I mean I remember when I

25:30

was going through the process of

25:32

providing support to

25:34

my father during his dying process . I remember

25:36

sitting in the backyard and

25:38

everything around

25:41

me . There was so much how

25:43

do I say ? It was a very nebulous space because

25:46

there was no clear cut

25:48

time of well , he's

25:50

definitely going to die on this day or anything . You

25:52

know , he's just kind of in this waiting period

25:54

and this . Liminal space yeah , liminal

25:57

space , for sure . And

26:00

I remember just staring at this tree and

26:02

looking at all of its leaves and seeing

26:05

that the leaves were moving and they were interacting at

26:07

the wind , and then just looking at the trunk

26:09

and seeing how still it was

26:11

and knowing deep down

26:13

I had this sort of like it's a very simple yet

26:15

profound revelation that , even though it

26:18

looked as if it was completely standing

26:20

still and nothing was happening , that

26:22

in fact there was a lot

26:24

going on inside , that there was still growth

26:26

, even in the pause and in the stillness

26:28

, and even if it looks like there's nothing happening , there's

26:30

always I

26:32

know I'm

26:35

like why do drugs ?

26:36

I mean , I'm tripping just sitting under that

26:38

tree .

26:42

You heard it here first .

26:44

Yes , you want to have a good time

26:46

? Go find your local tree .

26:49

So good , it's so true , it's

26:51

so true .

26:52

And I wish that everybody and everybody deserves to

26:54

have that access , which

26:56

isn't so , and that

26:58

is a sorrow that

27:01

I feel about this world

27:03

. Not everybody has access

27:05

to green , to space

27:07

, to trees , to water

27:10

, and

27:12

I definitely want to share

27:15

my heart sorrow with

27:17

the situation in the world right now . The

27:19

brokenness that we've known

27:22

has been there for a long time , but

27:24

it's still shocking and saddening

27:26

about Gaza and all the

27:28

places that are at war

27:30

and the world right now , where it's

27:32

a tragic and

27:35

beautiful world . Is it not broken

27:37

and beautiful ?

27:39

And you've brought up something that I

27:41

was just about to go down

27:43

as well , which is sort of like how

27:46

do you in your life , how

27:48

do you maintain

27:51

that sense of enchantment when

27:54

there's this sort of juxtaposition between

27:56

that and the reality of

27:58

what we're facing right

28:01

now in this world ? And have

28:03

there been times in your life where you

28:05

didn't feel the sparkle and you didn't see

28:07

the shiny thing as the magma and

28:10

the world seemed bleak and all you

28:12

were in was it ? It was

28:14

sort of the darkness of it

28:16

, which I think is also valuable for

28:18

sure . And how yeah

28:21

, I guess sort of how have you navigated that and to

28:23

kind of get that almost sprinkling

28:25

of like fairy dust back

28:27

in those times ?

28:29

Yeah , thank you for that question . It's

28:31

a challenging question , for

28:34

sure . I definitely

28:36

believe that I started teaching

28:38

yoga and I was offering this practice

28:40

that I loved and I was receiving

28:42

so much from , but over

28:45

time I realized that

28:47

my students were teaching me about love

28:49

, and that was a

28:51

revelation . And so there's such

28:53

a commitment and , I

28:56

think , a responsibility

28:58

, perhaps a little harsh , but

29:00

I feel that I

29:02

always want to be

29:04

there for them and hold

29:07

space and co-create this

29:09

experience , which is going

29:11

through the yoga fairy door , so to

29:14

speak , going

29:16

into the woods and going through a little fairy

29:18

door , and then it's different . The

29:20

light is different , how we listen is different

29:23

, and coming together to be able to

29:25

fall apart , coming together

29:27

to be alone , these are very

29:29

inspiring ways of being

29:31

for me . So I'm always

29:34

it feels like each class is

29:36

new again sharing

29:38

what is lighting me up and then asking

29:41

them what do you think of this ? So

29:43

we have some talks , sometimes

29:45

in yoga class , which is usually unheard of . You

29:48

ask a question . Everybody's like deer in the head , like

29:50

we're supposed to speak . I

29:53

don't do that every class or anything

29:55

, but every now and then I'm like who's

29:58

with you today ? What

30:00

are you bringing in and people have

30:02

a lot to say . They always have a lot

30:04

to say and that interaction is

30:06

how we grow and how we feel connected to each

30:09

other , because it's very lonely this

30:11

period of time , perhaps all periods

30:14

of time to

30:16

be in this human form . It's

30:18

so mystifying

30:22

. So I'm trying to find the mystical

30:24

without it being mystifying , if that makes sense .

30:27

Yeah , I think you've touched on something

30:29

really important , which is that crucial

30:33

need of community as we

30:35

go through life in general

30:37

, and definitely these times where there is a lot

30:39

of really heartbreaking contrast

30:42

, where we need community to

30:44

be able to fall apart , to be

30:46

alone in and

30:48

I think that's what's so special about

30:50

a yoga class a good , good

30:53

, nice container of a yoga

30:55

class where you can go and it's

30:58

something that I've found during my travels

31:00

, no matter where I am in the

31:02

world to find a yoga class

31:04

, and then I know that I can be there and

31:06

I can witness and be witnessed without

31:09

having to say a word and

31:12

then , if I so choose , I can interact

31:14

. But I think it's something very , very special

31:16

to

31:19

be in that space and to be in spaces like that

31:21

.

31:21

Yeah , I think it has the components of

31:23

ritual and rhythm

31:25

and rigor . And I'm interested

31:28

that you said something about the

31:30

classes are strong . I do

31:33

not generally teach a gentle

31:35

yoga class . I teach a strength

31:38

building , mobility enhancing

31:41

class that's got rhythm

31:43

and it's a ritual to

31:45

me . We come in , we chant om

31:47

, we go through the yoga fairy door

31:50

, do this

31:52

ritual together . We come

31:54

out , we center ourselves because

31:56

it's very vulnerable in that

31:58

place . We center ourselves before

32:00

stepping back out onto Warren Street . So

32:03

there's also protection involved

32:05

. The mantras are protective

32:08

, the idea of

32:10

that everything isn't okay

32:13

and we want

32:15

to be aware and

32:17

hey , hamdukam anagatam

32:20

, see the trouble to come and cross

32:22

the street . Grateful

32:26

sorrow is a term Dave

32:28

Smith used . He's a meditation

32:31

teacher and I was really moved

32:33

by that that our sorrow

32:35

holds so much about

32:37

pointing to what's meaningful to us

32:40

. So there's always space in

32:42

my classes for people to feel sorrow

32:44

, to feel grief , and often there's

32:47

this toxic positivity which I

32:49

really gets my hackles up

32:51

Open your heart

32:53

these platitudes that teachers say

32:56

without really really thinking

32:58

about . Well , if you open your heart

33:00

all the time , it's too much . You

33:04

need to close . If you're doing

33:06

a chest opener , the back of your

33:08

heart is closing . So what are you

33:10

talking about ? Very particular

33:12

, there's my word thing

33:14

I want to say things

33:17

that are accurate . I want the

33:19

cues , I want them to

33:21

be inclusive . I want

33:23

the student to have agency , but there's

33:25

still a form there , so it's not free

33:27

for all , which I love , but that's a different

33:29

time . So

33:32

those are some thoughts about the

33:35

gifts that yoga has , that the

33:38

sadness can , what I've lost

33:40

, are also what I'm most grateful

33:42

for . And to avoid

33:44

that , to control that , to

33:47

try to push that away , I think

33:49

we lose a lot of information about

33:51

being human and the sorrow , as

33:54

we can imagine , could then

33:56

be matched with

33:58

joy or appreciation . The

34:00

body and mind very , very wise

34:03

given a chance .

34:05

Beautifully said . I'm looking forward to listening

34:07

to that again . Yes , I think something

34:10

you said Wow , yeah , it's good , it's

34:12

really good . It's something

34:14

you said also is like when we think of heart openers

34:17

is you know , have you

34:19

created a space , are you in a space

34:21

where , if you do crack open your heart

34:24

, does this space that

34:26

you're in , does it have the capacity to hold

34:28

what's in there as well ? Does it have

34:30

the capacity to hold the grief , or is it like

34:32

, hey guys , we're just going to do a monster

34:35

heart opener , right ?

34:37

And you're going to cry . Oh , good luck to you

34:39

. You

34:45

know , crying for three days and

34:47

the teachers nowhere to be found .

34:52

And this is something I'd love to

34:55

sort of lead into

34:57

, if you feel ready and open

34:59

to sharing your piece

35:02

of writing about ritual , because you've created

35:04

what you create in your yoga

35:07

spaces is a place where people can come

35:09

together and have that sort of

35:11

sense of safety . And then , yeah , I

35:13

am curious if you would like to just share

35:15

a few words on sort

35:19

of the importance of safety and

35:21

then how you can kind of create this

35:23

space of ritual for me

35:25

.

35:25

Thank , you I would love to . I wrote

35:27

something entitled

35:29

Ritual Instructions . One

35:32

be still for a long time

35:34

. Two fetch the basket

35:36

, your favorite one made of dark reeds

35:38

, oblong in shape , big

35:40

enough to swaddle a baby inside

35:42

and float it down the Nile . Three

35:44

it's too heavy to lift like

35:47

there are river stones waiting it down

35:49

. Peering inside , there's

35:51

only emptiness . Four make a fire

35:53

in the basket . Add the red sky

35:56

of the morning , mahakasha

35:58

, dripping , sweet water melted from

36:00

the recent snowfall to create

36:02

smoke . Five see how

36:04

is it much lighter now , light

36:07

enough to drag to the cleared patch

36:09

of earth . Brush the ground . Six

36:11

lay sticks in a pattern

36:13

, leaves and flowers , if it's

36:15

spring , summer or fall . Seven

36:18

add your wildness , queerness

36:20

, longing , desire , dreams

36:23

and lie face down beside the

36:25

basket , listen to the birdsong

36:27

and the tree speak . Eight add

36:30

your sister's , parkinson's , your addictions

36:32

, your fears , hatreds , cravings

36:34

. Basket is heavy again . Are

36:36

you surprised you forgot to

36:38

add love ? Do it now , it's

36:40

never too late . Nine begin to

36:43

hum and then sing from some adivistic

36:45

place , deep and guttural . Add

36:48

rocking or swaying . Sing

36:50

forever and a day . Ten

36:53

sit still in the quiet for a long

36:55

time before you leave . Pray

36:57

to the dignity in your spine , the

36:59

connection in your ribs , your

37:01

ancestors at your back , the unknown

37:04

before you Rest

37:06

in your heart .

37:08

Really beautiful . Thank

37:10

you so much .

37:12

Thank you for sharing . It's my life

37:14

raft . Honestly

37:17

, people say

37:19

how do you keep doing it over and over

37:21

? I'm like I don't know . It's

37:24

my life raft . It's not altruistic

37:26

, I'm sorry to say , but I'm

37:28

in this too , like

37:30

Mary Oliver , you stand around and you open

37:33

your arms , not like standing around

37:36

, but maybe something will come

37:38

to you some leaf or coil

37:40

of wind , some tree , because

37:42

they're in this too . It's

37:46

a fairy door

37:48

. Now . There's

37:53

a lot of joy and

37:55

laughter and making fun of

37:57

. It's all there .

37:59

It's all there and that's part of

38:01

the reason I'm just so

38:03

. I feel so blessed that

38:05

we've been put in each other's paths , because

38:08

I think there's something truly

38:11

special about holding the

38:13

wisdom that you do and maintaining

38:15

such an amazing sense of humor

38:17

and

38:20

not taking yourself so seriously

38:22

. Wow , so good

38:24

, because it's like the more we learn , the

38:26

more we realize we don't know and the more

38:28

we realize we need to learn . Maintain

38:30

that sense of continuing to learn and

38:33

continuing to be in conversation , because

38:35

you're a part of the ride . Yes .

38:37

Thank you , right , right , thank

38:41

you . So some people it's to take yourself out

38:43

of the center and some people do that

38:45

too much and it's like

38:47

put yourself in the center for a second

38:49

. That's why being prescriptive

38:52

is very dangerous . There isn't

38:54

one way . Even though we have a

38:56

lot of similarities , our different

38:58

experiences demand that we

39:00

taste things and try them

39:02

and then , like a goat , they don't eat

39:04

everything . Actually , if they eat something

39:07

they don't like , they spit it out .

39:10

Speaking of which , this is something

39:12

I'll bring us back to earlier

39:14

in the conversation , if you're willing to go down

39:16

this little rabbit hole with me

39:19

. I'm curious about

39:22

your experience in

39:25

the role of a mentor in

39:27

your life , because it's really beautiful , I

39:30

feel , in many ways . Now you are in this role

39:32

of mentor to so many people and

39:35

I'm curious about your experience

39:38

in taking on being sort of

39:40

the student and the role of

39:42

mentors in your life . And I'm

39:44

really curious about this for

39:46

other people , creative

39:48

people , which is really just all people , people

39:51

who are willing to kind of listen to

39:53

the voice and follow and

40:00

how in other people's lives

40:02

I like to study other artists

40:04

, people who inspire me , and

40:06

I love to sort of see , oh so they study

40:09

with that person , they study with that person . And

40:11

I'm curious to hear because you did share a bit about

40:13

the mentors that were in your life

40:15

, and I guess I'm sort of

40:17

curious about your experience in

40:20

having

40:22

mentors in your life . Perhaps

40:25

also what can happen what has

40:27

happened in my life too of sort of when you reach

40:29

that point where , as the goat , it's kind of like you're

40:31

eating , eating , and then you kind of get to a point where like , okay

40:34

, then you go , okay . So now my path

40:36

here has changed and I

40:38

have to have to move on

40:41

to perhaps a different mentor or shift

40:43

gears which , yeah

40:45

, I'm just curious about your experience

40:47

in that , as you've been on this lifelong

40:50

journey of having this conversation with

40:52

your inner genius , with your muse and , yeah

40:54

, the role of the mentor in your life , oh

40:56

it's big .

40:57

I have to say I'm always

41:00

at the feet of so many different

41:02

people . A lot of them they don't know

41:04

that . It's

41:08

like I'm your friend but you don't know that

41:10

. So

41:12

definitely women

41:15

, in particular women writers

41:18

. I did a three-year

41:20

program with Judith Schmidt

41:22

and Alexis Johnson about trauma

41:25

and neuro science

41:27

and they really

41:29

were mentors to me . I

41:31

looked towards incredible

41:33

black women

41:35

and black farmers in my region

41:38

as mentors working

41:40

with the land , and it

41:43

goes on . It kind of goes on and on . You

41:45

know , like I'm always . I'm

41:48

an eternal student , as

41:50

many of us are . I

41:52

study all the time . I

41:54

read . Pandemic was

41:56

really a time when I

41:58

just I love the library

42:01

. I would have this . They have

42:03

the thing where you could order online

42:06

and then they would put it your books in a paper

42:08

bag and you can go pick them up and

42:10

they would draw little pictures on the bag . It was very cute

42:13

and I would order like 10

42:15

books and of course , I wasn't going

42:17

to read them all , but I would just like hold

42:20

them . I would just hold one and then I would

42:22

give it back . So books

42:24

are a mentor to me . Writers

42:27

, poets , mary Oliver , those

42:29

that many of us follow , but

42:32

my own study with a

42:34

fan of Ritual , josh

42:37

Schreie . I love

42:39

Iyana Young and her podcast

42:41

for the wild , so

42:43

you know that's

42:45

an endless question

42:47

. I'm always at the feet of someone

42:49

and giving them credit , because I have

42:52

very few original ideas in

42:54

my humble opinion . I just am caught

42:56

by people's brilliance

42:58

. I mean , thinking gets a bad rap

43:01

and meditation , I'm like thinking

43:03

, is what created these incredible

43:05

things , so

43:07

let's not throw it all out with

43:10

the bathwater , if you know what I mean . And

43:12

I just received the grant

43:15

dance grant where the

43:17

grant is for process , meaning

43:20

I don't have to make a piece , but

43:22

I did have to choose a mentor . So

43:24

I know I'm so excited

43:27

. Ann Carlson , and an incredible choreographer

43:29

in this country , has agreed to be my

43:31

mentor . So I'm looking forward

43:34

to the next bit of time , having

43:36

my process shaken

43:38

up ready . Shake

43:41

me up .

43:42

That's it . That's it . It's like the moment

43:44

we sort of feel that we're

43:46

becoming too rigid , it's like , oh , we got to

43:48

break the form again , add in something .

43:49

Yeah , challenge me , challenge

43:51

me , and then I'm going to turn around and challenge

43:54

you . I'm going to pass on

43:56

that gift .

43:58

Beautiful . I'm curious

44:00

. Also , in your

44:02

work of passing on your gift , I

44:05

would like to hear a bit about the

44:08

work that you're doing with moving potential

44:10

.

44:12

Yeah , see , now that's where I just light

44:14

up like a recent

44:17

incandescent bulb . Again

44:20

, I went in because I thought I

44:22

could be useful and

44:24

share yoga and then I learned so

44:26

much about love with

44:28

these elegant , eloquent

44:31

, enthusiastic people that

44:33

have been thrown

44:35

away . The

44:37

system should be abolished

44:40

and , in the meantime , trying to make

44:42

it more humane , create a space

44:45

where people can feel

44:47

they can say , without

44:50

fear of being punished

44:53

, what's on their mind . We write

44:55

a lot , we do these wild

44:57

dance improvisations . I'm working with men

44:59

in a medium security prison teaching

45:02

them dance . For goodness sakes , I can't even

45:05

get men to come to class that aren't

45:07

incarcerated . So I am in love

45:09

with them and we

45:13

, I think , might eventually make a piece

45:15

, but they teach

45:17

me and we have created , created

45:20

, co-created this space where

45:22

one of them said this is

45:24

the only place I don't feel like a convict

45:27

and it breaks my heart open

45:29

in the best way . Every time we

45:31

do meditation , we talk about grateful

45:33

sorrow , we talk about everything

45:36

, and they write beautifully

45:38

and we share , and then they do

45:40

authentic movement and they do

45:42

trust falls and they learn

45:45

a phrase and they walk around

45:47

and then they crawl around the floor

45:49

and it's just

45:52

wild to

45:55

me , and every Thursday I can't

45:57

wait . I'm like what's going to happen today

45:59

? What's going to happen today ? But then now

46:01

there's a team of us , so there's teachers in

46:03

recovery . We did the first in

46:05

the nation yoga teacher

46:07

training for women in a mandated recovery

46:09

center . There have been trainings

46:11

in prison and jail perhaps , but

46:13

not in a recovery center

46:16

and so far eight women have graduated

46:18

with their teaching certificate

46:20

and that is huge

46:23

in terms of confidence

46:25

and raising their , their

46:27

wrestling with their self loathing

46:30

and self worth . So

46:33

it is , I'm

46:35

just running along behind it . I did

46:37

start it and it's just been

46:39

growing and growing . And it's

46:41

still just small , it's local , but

46:43

I'm excited and

46:46

honored and have yet to see

46:48

where it will continue to go , but

46:50

I'm there with it .

46:53

I'm curious was there anything about

46:55

diving into this work initially

46:57

that surprised you , having

47:00

been a teacher

47:02

of yoga and dance for

47:04

so long and then being sort of in a different environment

47:07

? Was there anything that surprised you or anything

47:09

that you had to sort

47:11

of unlearn or learn

47:13

in this new space ?

47:16

Sure , and that reminds me . We do

47:18

a yoga program

47:20

at my studio and it's called the Untraining

47:23

Reframing , because we really are untraining

47:25

ourselves a lot . Honestly , I thought

47:27

I would go into the prison and that everybody

47:30

your worst nightmare would sit

47:32

there with their arms crossed and be like

47:34

, yeah , and that was so

47:36

surprising . They weren't like that at all

47:38

. They were like hmm

47:40

, and asked me good questions , what do you want

47:43

from us ? And they

47:45

push me like why are we doing

47:47

this ? And then others will chime

47:49

in because she's the teacher and she said so

47:51

. That

47:54

might be true , but I have a better answer for you

47:56

here . We're doing this because and

47:58

it surprised me how much

48:00

they let their guard down and

48:03

I realized that that's not

48:05

what's happening outside of that class the

48:07

rest of their day in that institution

48:11

, it's about breaking people down

48:13

and it's not about

48:15

rehabilitation , although these

48:17

programs are changing that and

48:20

helpful . But there's a lot of resistance

48:22

, a lot of pushback from inside

48:24

the system Like why these people should

48:26

be punished , they shouldn't have these

48:28

programs . So it's something

48:31

, it's really something .

48:33

Yeah , I feel like there's a lot of depth

48:35

in that conversation to

48:38

have and I'm hoping perhaps we can

48:40

revisit this in another conversation

48:43

as well .

48:43

That sounds great yeah there's a lot .

48:45

There's a lot there .

48:46

Yeah , thank you so much for having me

48:48

. Thank you what ?

48:49

an absolute pleasure

48:51

. I

48:55

sort of interesting as I was thinking of closing

48:58

questions for you . I'm

49:01

always interested to hear from others

49:03

about sort of what's kind

49:06

of on their sort

49:08

of inspiration board of

49:11

their minds , of their hearts at

49:13

this time . If

49:15

you could sort of picture like these are the things

49:17

that light me up , like if your

49:19

heart and mind were like a Pinterest board of

49:21

textures and sounds

49:23

and tastes and colors and languages

49:26

or anything like this , could

49:29

you pull a few that are really

49:31

lighting you up , like what's something

49:33

?

49:33

You . You're lighting me up right

49:35

now . Your

49:39

sweater is lighting me up . I love

49:41

great wild clothes

49:44

. I love textures like velvet

49:47

and crushed velvet , lighting

49:50

me up thinking about seeds

49:53

and what might be planted this

49:55

year . Lighting me

49:57

up about what am I going to do

49:59

with this movement process

50:02

. That's supposed to shake me up . So

50:04

, and to be honest , there's a certain

50:07

flatness I feel

50:09

right now with when I

50:11

have to titrate the news and

50:13

I read I'm not turning away

50:16

, but , wow , I read the

50:18

news and then I feel flattened

50:20

and I just have to go lie down

50:22

. So I've been lying down a lot

50:25

, resting , doing

50:27

yin yoga . So

50:29

it's complicated . It's complicated

50:31

. Yeah , my son

50:33

is an inspiration . He's in

50:36

school and he's talking

50:39

about all this stuff and learning

50:42

and quite , quite fun . So

50:44

I'm blessed . And then I have a rascally

50:47

dog . That's a trauma dog

50:49

. She's really something . So we

50:51

have quite a connection when we're

50:54

just alone together . But that's

50:57

some of it , I think . Plants

50:59

and water .

51:01

I love that you've included it all . I

51:03

love that you included the

51:05

shiny bits and also

51:07

shiny but different , different , different color

51:09

of things , and also just sharing

51:12

the fact that you're giving yourself that

51:14

permission to digest

51:16

and to rest . It's really

51:18

really huge , and I think it's very useful

51:21

right now as well , as let's not let's

51:23

not turn away from it . How can we witness

51:26

it to the degree that we can and

51:28

then also make sure to take care

51:30

of ourselves as we ?

51:31

right , how could we not be exhausted

51:33

by this ? Yeah , yeah

51:35

, but

51:38

somehow we get up and we try again we

51:40

try again . You

51:43

know it's like every

51:45

morning I light my candle and I bring

51:47

the light in .

51:48

That's it . I'm going now and it's

51:51

just that one little bit of light that I have

51:53

in the morning and in the evening .

51:55

It's like let's just have a little bit

51:58

of light illumination

52:00

.

52:00

Yeah , we'll have to sing together sometime

52:02

.

52:03

I can't wait . I love

52:05

to sing . I

52:08

love to . So , that

52:10

being said , do you have

52:12

anything you'd like to share

52:14

of upcoming programming

52:16

that we can let people know about

52:19

? Anything coming up that you want

52:21

to keep people in the know

52:23

about ?

52:24

Yeah , thank you for asking . I

52:26

don't have . I have a retreat that I'm doing

52:28

in Mexico but it's full

52:31

, which is exciting , very

52:34

exciting . And

52:36

then how to be thoughtful about

52:39

going into another country

52:41

and another culture more like a pilgrimage

52:43

than a tourist trip , so

52:46

thoughtful about that . And

52:48

then , just , I'm just regularly teaching

52:51

and teach a lot . And

52:53

yeah , the website you

52:55

could see , there's the website for moving

52:58

potential , there's the website for the studio

53:00

. And there's

53:03

a lot of other people doing stuff at the studio

53:05

. I just can't believe how much activity

53:07

is happening again after

53:09

those times we were

53:11

shut down .

53:13

Yeah , which is a whole other conversation . I

53:15

want to hear what you're talking about , like

53:18

your studio and your studio

53:21

, yeah , Nice . There's just

53:23

so much to talk about , but

53:26

there is . You've really created a beautiful

53:29

space . That I think is

53:31

just very welcoming and what you're offering

53:33

is truly special . And

53:35

it's if anyone is like

53:37

kind of wants to , I don't know like

53:40

have a taste of what I call , I mean , what

53:42

is real yoga ? What's a real yoga ? Like

53:45

listen , this is it .

53:50

Give a shout out to my parents

53:53

and my grandmother , who

53:55

were community builders

53:57

, and you know my mother

53:59

would drag people off the street , basically

54:02

, and say you want to come over for a Friday night dinner

54:04

. So that was

54:06

instilled in me . That that's all for

54:08

one and one for all .

54:11

And that's definitely what you've created is something

54:13

truly special where

54:16

, like the moment I walked in , people are hugging

54:18

each other . You know , we were only there for

54:20

three days and they're like I don't know . I was like

54:22

, yeah , you know , it's just .

54:26

You don't have to hug anybody when you come

54:28

, but you could .

54:31

It's available to you if you need a hug . If

54:34

you need it imagine there's someone there who will

54:37

give you a hug . That's why it is

54:39

. And it's very much to themselves

54:41

, and we respect that , of course . Of

54:43

course and that's I think it's something really

54:45

beautiful is that people have the opportunity to

54:47

just be who they are , come as

54:49

they are , and to be welcomed and

54:51

accepted just as they are .

54:55

Yes , likewise .

54:58

We could just keep going . We

55:01

could just keep going for an hour or

55:03

two .

55:03

We're on podcasts .

55:06

We'll definitely have you on again because

55:08

there's so much more I'd love to hear

55:10

from you , because you really are someone

55:13

very special . So I very much

55:15

, I bow to you and all

55:17

of the wisdom that you carry and thank you

55:19

so much for coming on and sharing that

55:22

. Thank you , take

55:24

good care . So much love . Yes

55:26

, and to our dear listener

55:29

, we'll have all of the information

55:31

in the show notes so you can check out

55:33

the website . There's a lot of practices

55:36

you can also tune into that

55:38

are on the website and also you do

55:40

the classes on Zoom as well . So

55:43

that is available . Thank you , all

55:47

right , sandra . Thank you , thank you so much

55:49

for coming onto the show . It's been a sincere

55:52

pleasure . Thank you for inviting me . Be

55:54

well , all right and

55:56

my dear listener , this has been another

55:58

episode of the Ode

56:01

to Joy podcast .

56:04

Thank you so much for tuning into this latest episode

56:07

. Dear listener , it is my sincere pleasure

56:09

to be bringing you these conversations

56:11

every week and , hey , if you

56:13

enjoyed the show , I would so appreciate

56:16

hearing from you . If you

56:18

have a moment , why not go ahead ? Leave

56:20

us a review , let me know what you think and

56:22

, if you're feeling generous , perhaps you throw in a couple

56:24

of stars . I'll talk to you again

56:26

very soon , sending you so much love

56:28

.