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2:02

How was that filming together? It

2:04

was that.

2:04

But it's hell. It was so much

2:07

fun. I

2:08

think that about nobody else by the way.

2:11

The the times on the show that I got to

2:13

torture people or

2:16

have crazy, like, on camera

2:18

sex with Quinn were the

2:20

most fun ever.

2:22

Yeah. You know what I mean? Debbie Allen directed

2:24

the first episode where we had to

2:27

ice smack your face then you

2:29

grab my cheeks so that I can't

2:31

speak. You're, like, hurting my face. And, oh, I

2:33

smacked him so hard. His ears was ringing.

2:35

It was I lost my earring. For, like, half

2:37

an hour. I've talked about this on other shows.

2:39

But I was like, Katie, Smack me for real.

2:41

Like, do it for real for real. And then

2:43

was like, What did you say,

2:46

Debbie? Like, I'm coming through.

2:53

Hi. My name is Katie Lowes, and I

2:56

really like this podcast. Hi,

2:58

guys. My name is Guillermo

3:01

Daz, and I just

3:03

watched a

3:04

wrap. Run across my backyard.

3:06

No. Yes. Twice.

3:10

Twice. Well,

3:16

hello everyone and welcome

3:18

back here to off the beat

3:21

I am your host, Baumgartner,

3:23

and today is a very special Daz.

3:25

Because today, we have

3:27

not won But two exciting

3:30

guests, that's right. It's a threesome,

3:33

Katie Lowes and Guillermo

3:36

Daz. I met Katie

3:38

and Guillermo for the first time today,

3:41

but they met a

3:43

decade ago on the set of

3:46

scandal. One of the most popular

3:48

Lowes, well, certainly in the last

3:50

decade, and for good reason,

3:52

it has politics. It has drama.

3:55

But most of all, it has

3:57

Katie and Guillermo. Now, they're

3:59

actually starting their own scandal podcast

4:02

called unpacking the toolbox.

4:05

I've heard the trailer and it is

4:08

fantastic. Lots of

4:10

scandal, but that's

4:12

expected. They're here today to

4:15

talk about their early days as

4:17

actors struggling in New

4:19

York, their time on scandal, what

4:21

it means to be a part of the Shondaland

4:24

universe, and both of their

4:26

most recent shows law and order

4:29

organized crime for

4:31

Guillermo and the most talked about

4:33

show of the last year inventing

4:35

Anna. For Katie. They're

4:37

delightful together. I didn't

4:40

even need to be here, but guess what? I

4:42

was. So here they are.

4:45

Katy, Lowes, and

4:47

Guillermo Diaz.

4:53

Bovlin'sque. I

4:56

love it. Bublin'sque, I

4:58

know. Bubble

5:01

and squeaker cooking every remote

5:03

and left over from the night before.

5:15

Hi, guys. Hi. Is that

5:18

Brian?

5:19

How are you? Pretty good. How

5:21

are you? I'm good. I mean, you know,

5:23

I'm lurking in the background so I hear. I mean,

5:25

we should keep the conversation going. You're

5:27

more you're going to Vegas this weekend.

5:29

That's fantastic.

5:31

I am and I know you're not like a

5:33

Vegas dude to me but, like, maybe

5:35

more and I'm always learning new things

5:37

from this friendship.

5:38

Yeah. I love Vegas. I really love it.

5:40

I mean, I can't go for more than, like, two days.

5:42

You know what I mean? But I'm excited we're

5:44

gonna see the Michael Jackson show out there.

5:47

Oh, it's so good.

5:49

I saw it. I did. Oh, nice.

5:51

Yeah. I'm super excited about that. Saw it.

5:54

And you know what's so funny. Did you guys

5:56

watch the Chris Rock special

5:58

on

5:58

Netflix?

5:59

I haven't seen it.

6:00

Well, I just

6:01

heard about it.

6:02

Yes. It got me thinking because

6:04

he was saying how, like,

6:06

people are selectively outrage.

6:10

Out or outrage, and he's like, why are we

6:12

allowed to watch Michael listen to Michael Jackson,

6:15

but we're not allowed to listen to r

6:16

Kelly. You

6:17

know what I mean? Right. Yeah. Yeah. I get that. Anyway,

6:19

whatever

6:19

you feel about that, I'm not trying to be provocative right

6:21

now, but I'm, like, I'm trying to

6:22

ask, like, you're trying to be provocative, but continue

6:25

yes. Ask

6:25

that question in myself because

6:27

I've seen the Michael Jackson show, and I love

6:29

Michael Jackson music. And then I

6:31

and I know what he's done, and then I

6:33

would never see a musical about

6:35

our Kelly. No. Totally. Same.

6:38

I just Yeah. I don't know what's happening

6:40

in my brain. Yeah. It's

6:42

crazy that he presented that and then

6:44

it makes you it really makes think. Yeah. Yeah.

6:47

And, like, everybody's different what they feel because

6:49

I have friends who are like, we'll walk off a dance floor

6:51

if Michael Jackson comes on.

6:52

Really? A hundred percent. Really?

6:55

One hundred percent, like, they are, like,

6:57

absolutely not. I don't endorse

6:59

support. Any of this music, this

7:01

person was incredibly sick and and

7:04

broke laws and hurt people and

7:06

children. And so I'm out. I'm like, fuck.

7:08

I'm a bad person. Interesting.

7:10

You're on the dance floor.

7:11

I'm just like, doing the moonwalk, like

7:13

my best impression is of I mean,

7:15

Guillermo, this sounds like kind of an indictment

7:17

of you. How are you feeling right now about

7:19

to go to Vegas and watch the

7:21

show.

7:21

Oh my god. That's right. What the

7:23

fuck man? Well,

7:24

I've seen it and was just saying I was endorsing

7:27

it because I loved it.

7:28

Right. Right. Teasing. You

7:32

guys I mean, I have to start with

7:34

what is secretly wrong with

7:37

Bellamy Young. I just

7:39

had the opportunity to work with her. She

7:41

seems way too kind a

7:43

person

7:44

There must be something -- Let's

7:47

just

7:47

work with her on.

7:48

-- we're working on a new

7:50

show, the other black girl

7:52

--

7:53

For Lowes. Yes.

7:54

I find her way too delightful.

7:58

So there must be something wrong with her.

8:00

There isn't.

8:01

Unless you

8:02

hate a vegan unless you hate vegans

8:04

or you hate animal lovers, those

8:06

would be the only famous

8:09

to check. She loves animals and

8:11

she doesn't eat

8:11

them. Okay. Other than

8:14

that, she's pretty gloriously perfect.

8:16

Yeah. No. But but you're you're feeling

8:18

your thinking is is correct

8:20

because when I first met her, I thought the same too. I

8:22

was like, this is way to like,

8:25

is this real? And then you come

8:27

to find out years later that she's that

8:29

exact same person every single day with

8:31

you and she's just though she has the biggest

8:33

heart and the most loving kind

8:36

person I

8:36

know.

8:37

She really is but she is she's

8:39

pretty fantastic. She's pretty fantastic.

8:41

She's exceptional. Also, it's like disarming.

8:44

Like, I don't know where you're from originally Brian,

8:46

but don't know, like, a lot a lot of, like,

8:48

southern bells. Like Say

8:50

I'm funny stuff. She's bellied, but Oh,

8:53

okay. So she's like, I was

8:55

like, duff. What the hell is this?

8:57

Like, I'm from New York. I've never met women

8:59

that are like that, like, Like,

9:02

she's very oh, god. Josh Milena

9:04

used to drive him so crazy on scandal because she's

9:06

a big hugger and

9:08

kiss her and very warm. Mhmm. But she

9:10

also she's just the person on

9:12

our WhatsApp, like scandal chain. She knows

9:15

everybody's birthday. Everybody's

9:17

anniversary -- Right. -- and is like so

9:19

conscious about

9:21

that it's like pretty remarkable

9:23

Is that a southern thing? You're from there, Brian? Is

9:25

that a southern woman thing? I

9:28

mean, my mom does that. So

9:30

I get that. I get yes.

9:32

Yeah. I mean, it's Blue Mountain cards.

9:35

General Blue Mountain messages generally

9:37

at this

9:37

time. get

9:38

those from my aunt Maureen.

9:39

What are those? That's a Blue Mountain message.

9:41

I don't know what that is. It's a it's basically

9:44

a it I mean, it's still

9:46

a kind gesture, which I guess guess it's

9:48

more effort than just text if that's

9:50

what Bellemeade

9:51

does. But it it is a virtual

9:53

car that you open usually

9:55

has some sort of dancing

9:58

Lowes.

9:59

Flower r. Yes. Yes.

10:01

And it says, like, wishing you a great day.

10:03

It's like an ecard, but the company

10:06

is called BlueMountain, and I that is

10:08

a classic in my family as well.

10:10

Yes. Alright. I

10:12

wanna go back to your to your childhood.

10:15

I wanna go back to your

10:17

time growing up. Both

10:19

of you, each of

10:20

you, when did you start becoming interested?

10:23

In the arts or acting. G.

10:27

Guillermo.

10:28

For me, it happened when I was in high school. I

10:30

was a a sophomore in high school, and I did

10:32

a a talent show where we did a Medley

10:34

of songs by the bestie boys.

10:37

Okay. And I played Mike Dee, and it was

10:39

the first time I was on stage, and

10:41

and I just fell in love with performing.

10:44

And I thought, this is what I wanna do.

10:46

And then from that point on, I just really,

10:48

really focused on pursuing

10:51

it. I bought Backstage. There used to be a newspaper

10:53

called Backstage. And, you know, you'd

10:55

circle the auditions and open calls.

10:57

And all that stuff. I did a ton of extra

11:00

work and background work and student films

11:02

and I just I really

11:04

just wanted to to act and I

11:07

pounded the pavement, and I just I, you know

11:09

and I I just kept going. So that's

11:11

that's how it started for

11:13

me. But let me ask you this. So you you're

11:15

on a a talent show

11:17

stage. As the besty boys, like,

11:20

what what was the impetus behind wanting

11:22

to do

11:23

that? Or you just kind of conned by

11:25

your friends and doing this. Somewhat, I

11:27

didn't even I I didn't even wanna be in

11:29

the talent show, but one of the guys dropped out

11:31

that was playing my d and my friends were like, Jeremy,

11:33

Lowes. Just do this for us, do this

11:35

this solid. And I was like, alright. And

11:37

that's sort of how it happens. So I wasn't even

11:40

looking for it. I wasn't even thinking about,

11:42

you know, wanting to do the talent show sort

11:44

of fell in my lap and then it

11:46

was a it was

11:47

a, you know, really exciting surprise

11:49

that I that loved it so much.

11:51

Did you kill it? Was the audience, like, in

11:53

the

11:53

posture your hand? I haven't. I

11:56

haven't. It's recorded. Like,

11:57

I have

11:58

it. I have it. On tape. Oh.

12:00

It's on a VHS.

12:01

Yeah.

12:02

Well,

12:02

but you haven't changed it over yet?

12:04

Yeah. You gotta change it

12:05

over. There you have it. No. It changed it over to an

12:07

electronic file. Let

12:08

me tell you something. Guillermo oh my

12:10

god. You this is not gonna

12:12

survive.

12:13

No, ma'am. Alright. If you moved

12:15

it might be less accurate.

12:17

To New York apartment. This is gonna

12:19

get, you know, damaged in some

12:21

way. I know. I know. I really I'm gonna

12:23

transfer it over. There's There's a photo

12:25

on my Instagram of us three

12:27

dressed like the beastie boys from that

12:29

night. If you scroll through

12:31

on my Instagram, there's a

12:32

photo of us. Your life, my

12:34

community. Yeah. And then and then years

12:36

later, fun fact, years

12:38

later, I did a movie called Half

12:41

Baked. And Tamara Davis directed

12:43

it. And she I

12:45

couldn't believe that she was married to

12:47

Mike

12:47

D. And I got to

12:50

tell this story to Mike

12:52

D. Into Tim Davis into Dade

12:54

ship l and That's amazing.

12:56

Yeah. You have said in the

12:58

past that hiding

13:01

the fact that you were gay growing up

13:03

gave you a crash course

13:05

in

13:06

acting. Can you can you talk to me a little bit

13:08

about that or why you feel that way? It

13:10

did, man. You know, when you're when you're

13:13

growing up in in in New York

13:15

City and Washington Heights in the eighties,

13:17

you know, we I did

13:19

a lot of lying. Yeah. A

13:21

lot of lying. A lot of hiding.

13:23

A lot of, you know, just

13:26

suppressing all all

13:28

things gay that I knew I was and

13:30

and it it really

13:31

does. It makes you it made me a really

13:33

good actor because

13:34

I, you know, I just sort of, you

13:37

know, rolled along throughout my

13:39

world acting like I wasn't

13:41

gay and it just sort of helped my

13:44

and it's sort of a messed up thing to think about.

13:46

You know what I mean? Because I was was herding inside

13:48

and the fact that I was hydrating and lying

13:51

to my parents, to friends. Like, that was all

13:53

really sad to me. But it was

13:55

a it was AAA performance. I

13:57

had to keep keep doing

13:59

and keep up if I wanted to sort

14:01

of, you know, survive for lack of a better word

14:03

in, you know, where I grew up. You know, I

14:06

also think it sort of relates so much to,

14:08

like, Guillermo's had the most incredible

14:10

run of playing so many different

14:12

types of

14:13

parts, but you've played a lot of,

14:15

like, super tough, fucked

14:17

up.

14:18

Right. Like -- Yeah. Yeah. -- jail, crime,

14:21

you know, drug dealers, all this stuff.

14:23

And I I feel like it's so authentic

14:26

because it's probably taps into you

14:28

covering, growing up in like a tougher neighborhood

14:30

and, you know, pretending to be,

14:32

like, a really tough kind

14:35

of exterior person. Absolutely.

14:37

Yeah. And and you've played gay characters

14:39

in your in your career also, but

14:42

but I just think you're you're really good with

14:44

a gun. You've done so much gun

14:46

work. You've done so much.

14:48

That's so much

14:48

gun work. Can somebody pull that for the tape.

14:51

Can somebody pull that for the tape? You've done a lot

14:53

of gun gun

14:54

work. Yeah. That's That's

14:56

yeah. But you've also every time you're

14:58

in, like, a jail

15:00

suit. Like, or haven't you been because I've been in

15:01

college a

15:02

few times and you're like, this is my fifty --

15:04

This is -- Yeah. -- a million times.

15:06

Yes. Ever I've done law and order,

15:09

like, five, six times, and, you

15:11

know, five out of the six, I've been a convict

15:13

in a in a orange jumpsuit. We'd

15:15

either murdered someone or raped someone

15:18

or No. Yeah. Me

15:20

pedophile. I'm very

15:21

good for you. Yeah. There

15:23

you go. Yeah. Orange jumps. Our right is our right

15:25

of passage is doing line order. If you're

15:27

That's what I do. And especially in New York.

15:29

Right? Yeah. Yeah. And that is a rite of passage.

15:32

It

15:32

really is. Katie, what about

15:34

you? When did you start thinking this

15:36

was your path?

15:37

My god, Daz I got the bug, like,

15:40

very early I just always

15:42

was one of those you could probably tell annoying

15:45

little girls who was just looking

15:47

for attention and applause my

15:50

parents probably messed up the other

15:52

direction telling me that I was special

15:55

too often. But

15:58

In all honesty, my mom, like, always

16:00

danced as her, like, workout. Like,

16:02

I grew up in queens. And my mom

16:05

was a mover. Like, she just she's a yoga

16:07

teacher now, but she just was always a mover. So we

16:09

were always in, like, mommy, daughter,

16:11

dance class on Thursdays at, like, five.

16:13

And and I just remember

16:15

being in little like recitals when I was

16:17

34567,

16:19

and, you know, then in fourth grade. I

16:21

got Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz. Like, it just

16:24

was never I

16:26

never questioned when I was twelve. I

16:28

we I grew up right outside the city, and I remember

16:30

screaming, crying, begging my dad for an agent.

16:32

He was, like, absolutely not.

16:36

Like, he was, like, absolutely not. If you

16:38

wanna do the school plays and, you know,

16:41

community theater and you wanna go

16:43

to class, I will support that wholeheartedly.

16:45

And even if you decide to major in

16:47

it, and go to school for it. I will also

16:49

support that, which at the time didn't

16:51

realize what a gift that was -- Right. --

16:53

until I ended up going to school and realized

16:55

how many kids parents were like, there's no way.

16:58

But by the way, now that I have kids, I'm like,

17:00

they weren't wrong. But anyway, I'm wrong.

17:03

But But my dad was, like, there's

17:05

no way you're doing anything professional until

17:07

you decide as an adult that that's

17:09

the path you wanna Lowes. But, like, you're gonna

17:11

be a regular kid and So

17:14

I did every little role from Chorus

17:16

to this that. And then when I started doing

17:18

it professionally, I was like, oh my god, this sucked.

17:21

This is so hard. Like,

17:24

I didn't realize, like, I had always been

17:26

such the goody twosh shoe people, please, are,

17:28

like, the best in my class get the monologue, this

17:30

that neither thing. And then it was, like, record scratch

17:33

stop. Yes. At, like, twenty one. It was,

17:36

like, you're never working. You're

17:38

going to be a waitress for a decade. You

17:40

are gonna fucking fight for this

17:42

tooth and nail, and you

17:45

will work harder than you've ever worked for

17:47

this dream that a lot of other

17:49

people have. And it took

17:51

ten years before and also probably

17:54

fifteen auditions in front of Shonda Rhimes,

17:56

although she'll say to you, I Katie

17:58

just came in. No. No. No. That was, like, my Yeah.

18:00

Like, I thought I did go with Sean Grimes. I

18:02

had been on private practice. I had been on Chris.

18:04

I had done all of it. I had tested for

18:07

previous Lowes. But scandal was

18:09

really the thing where was like, I

18:11

can stop my side

18:12

hustle. I

18:13

don't have to nanny. I don't have to be a personal

18:15

assistant. I don't have to be fucking caterer,

18:18

all of these things. Right.

18:20

Meanwhile, my parents were just

18:22

always very supportive, but felt

18:24

I think really nervous. Like, I remember being

18:26

twenty eight and, like, fighting for health insurance

18:29

and, you know, driving my rhetoric

18:31

around in Los Angeles, looking at my

18:33

Thomas Guide of how to to my third

18:35

rejection of the And my parents

18:37

were like, I don't know how long this

18:40

is going to go. And to be

18:42

honest, I don't know if I I got I

18:45

respect so many. I have wonderfully

18:47

talented friends in their forties and fifties

18:49

who are still fighting that fight, and I don't know

18:51

if I would've had it in me. I don't know.

18:54

I'd like to think so, like I'm an artist

18:56

and an actor through and

18:57

through, but man,

18:59

that sucked.

19:00

Yeah. It's tough.

19:01

No. It's it's really tough. But

19:03

in terms of your path, you decided to

19:05

go to Tish that assume that's what you're referring

19:07

to and your parents supporting you

19:09

-- Yeah.

19:09

-- through Titch. You

19:11

don't believe that. Were you process based

19:14

at that point or were you or

19:16

was it about

19:18

the business? I was not about

19:20

the business. At all. I was

19:22

the weird experimental theater wing

19:24

like rolling around on the floor, working

19:26

with like thinking I was making the greatest

19:28

art that ever been created in the

19:30

Tri State area, like,

19:33

everybody got body lice. It

19:35

was awesome. Like, we

19:37

were writing our names and permanent markers

19:40

holding umbrellas, naked. It

19:42

was so crazy. Dish was so expensive. And

19:44

the best thing they ever gave they they would be like,

19:46

here's fifty bucks. Like, go make a play.

19:48

Like, you're lucky that we gave you a little black

19:51

box theater with forty seats. And,

19:53

god, did we, like, make

19:55

the most of it I thought. But my my parents

19:57

who always loved I did musicals, they came

19:59

one of my first dish plays where

20:01

I took my top off and someone had to

20:03

mess surveyed in the play.

20:06

And my and I remember my parents sitting

20:08

in the front row being like Oh

20:10

my god. My and it's a great play. It's

20:12

Beirut. Like, Mercer's Domain did it off Broadway. Like,

20:15

it's super legit.

20:15

Like, I'm not

20:16

like, it was a fucking it's a great play.

20:18

But they're, like, this is not Lowes

20:21

Happened to guys and dolls.

20:24

So Carousel or, like,

20:26

pirates of pants, and I was like,

20:28

mom, I'm an artist. Now. I am a

20:30

drama nature. This

20:32

is

20:33

drama. My boobs are gonna be out.

20:35

Thank god, the iPhone didn't exist then, you know.

20:37

Thank god. Thank

20:39

god.

20:40

I was just naked all the time, all up on

20:42

that stage. Just naked. Nick

20:44

naked with a e. You want me?

20:47

Did you guy do you feel like growing

20:49

up in New York influenced you

20:52

and your aesthetic

20:55

your career paths, your desire

20:58

to create naked art.

21:01

I think I think growing up in New York

21:03

certainly gave me

21:05

an edge that I,

21:07

you know, at the time, I don't know if I appreciated

21:10

it as much at the time as

21:12

I do now. But similar

21:14

to Katie, III joined a theater

21:16

company called Labarin. We did the same

21:18

sort of thing. We would, you know, we

21:21

had a sort of a rundown space

21:24

on 53rd Street between, like, tenth

21:26

and eleventh Avenue, and we would go

21:28

back backstage where there were bags of old

21:30

masks and costumes, and we would dress up

21:33

and do kaboukie makeup

21:35

and -- Lovely. -- and then get on the stage perform

21:37

and move however we wanted to move. And

21:39

and a lot of those artists are like Daphne

21:41

Ruben Vega, David Zayas, Philip

21:44

Seymore Hoffman, John Ortiz,

21:47

Like, it was all Steven Edley Gergis,

21:49

who is an amazing

21:51

playwright. And so this was

21:53

the group of people that I was rolling around just

21:55

like you Katie on this, like, you

21:58

know, old, like, dusty stage.

22:00

But it and again, we were we were

22:02

in in New York City in the early nineties

22:05

doing this. So it was you know, I

22:07

remember going to the theater and being like,

22:09

okay, I hope I don't get mugged. I had to walk

22:11

really fast and I have to, you know, keep

22:14

my head down, and it it was it was a

22:16

a journey to the theater hoping you weren't

22:18

gonna get jumped by someone at at at

22:20

at knife point, which happened a lot in New

22:22

York. But But again, that gave I think

22:24

that gave me a certain and all of

22:26

us in in that group gave us a certain

22:29

edge, which I love so much, and I

22:31

move through, you know, the rest

22:33

of my career even now. I I moved

22:35

around in the world with that inside me.

22:38

I I love that.

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24:57

When you get out of school and you start auditioning

25:00

for things, Guillermo for you.

25:02

Struggles early

25:03

on, did you find it

25:07

Yes. You're not on your head. Oh my god.

25:10

Absolutely. It was a you

25:12

know, I mean, talking about it now sounds

25:14

like it was something that happened very quickly.

25:16

It took I think it took even longer than ten

25:18

years for me. It was it was constantly

25:21

pounding the pavement and you know,

25:23

dealing with rejection. And again, like

25:25

I said earlier, doing I did a ton of extra

25:27

work. I was doing extra work on student

25:30

films. That's how fucking Can

25:32

you say can you say student films on

25:35

on campus? Yeah. We

25:37

curse not But yeah.

25:39

That's how that's how, like, down Lowes,

25:41

I was. But, you know, with all that set, I

25:43

loved it. I still loved it. It it was

25:45

still so much fun and and

25:47

it exciting and exhilarating to be in front

25:49

of the camera whenever I was or on stage.

25:52

But, yeah, it was a constant constant

25:54

constant struggle. Even I mean, Katie, I think

25:56

he'll agree with

25:57

me. Like, even now, it's

25:59

a constant struggle now. Had

26:00

three huge rejections last week. Right?

26:03

Oh my god. No.

26:04

God. I'm flooded. My god.

26:06

I'm still

26:07

doing this like Yeah.

26:08

I mean, just dragged over

26:11

the coals for, like,

26:12

a while

26:12

just to get, like, a big fat no at

26:14

the end of it all. It's like, oh my

26:17

god. But you know what?

26:20

I just I think you have to

26:22

be, like,

26:23

I don't know. I don't wanna say stupid.

26:26

That's not right.

26:28

But there's some, like, faith,

26:31

hope, Yeah. Diabete, whatever

26:33

it is, to think

26:34

that, like, this day is gonna be different

26:36

or this opportunity is

26:38

gonna be different.

26:39

It's different now. Yes. I think you're right.

26:42

Like, there has to be something where it's like, I think

26:44

someone might give me a shot. Like,

26:47

Yeah. I I also think what we were asking

26:49

before about the New York

26:50

Edge, I remember moving to LA and being

26:52

like, is anybody doing

26:54

any

26:55

Like, I remember, like, New York,

26:57

you're a like, you're

26:59

early to things. You

27:02

fight for your place. Like like

27:04

if this is contest of like how hard you

27:07

can work, like, I feel like New Yorkers

27:09

work pretty hard to

27:11

get what they want, you know? And I remember

27:13

moving out to Los Angeles and so many people were

27:15

calling themselves actors, but they weren't doing anything.

27:18

Like -- Right. I was like, okay, I'm

27:20

in class, and then I go to waitressing, and then I'm gonna go

27:22

to babysitting, and then I'm gonna try to meet this person, and

27:24

then maybe this casting director will have lunch

27:26

with and then maybe they'll give me a babysitting job,

27:28

and then I'm gonna go back to acting class, and then I'm gonna

27:30

try to keep my body in mental health and shape. Like,

27:32

I just remember, like, studying my auditions

27:35

and things like

27:35

that. And I started a theater company and, like,

27:38

you know, I was just, like, hustling. And

27:40

I feel like that always gave me such an edge

27:42

because there were so many people out in

27:44

LA who were just far more laid

27:46

back. And chill

27:49

I feel like people in LA were all

27:52

sort of hyper focused on, like,

27:54

a really great headshot. Yeah.

27:56

Or, like, you know, that

27:58

sort of superficial type of stuff

28:01

as opposed to, like, really, like, finding

28:03

work and working on monologues

28:06

or finding

28:06

a, you know, theater to do a plan or

28:08

stuff like that. Yeah. But I think

28:11

not just in acting or

28:13

theater, but in the world and in

28:15

in whatever business that you're in, the

28:18

amount of work outside of

28:21

doing the thing that you do to prepare

28:23

you to do the thing that you do

28:25

is so important. And doesn't get

28:27

enough credit. You hear the word

28:29

lucky a lot or, like,

28:32

right place at the right time

28:34

or you met the right person or

28:36

whatever. But I think all of

28:38

those things are a product of

28:41

all of that work that you're doing

28:43

outside

28:44

of the thing that you're trying to do?

28:46

I completely agree.

28:49

Sometimes I'm lucky enough to go in

28:51

and I, like, talk to little like

28:53

I said, I started a theater company like sixteen

28:56

years ago. And I go in

28:58

sometimes to, like, classrooms of, like, twenty,

29:00

like, younger actors and And I'm like, what

29:02

are you doing though? Like, nine to if

29:04

this is your job, right, and

29:06

you're gonna work at least forty hours a week on

29:08

this, you should more, by the way. Like, what

29:10

does that mean if you don't have someone

29:13

paying you right now currently to act? Like, what

29:15

are the hours filled with? And and to

29:17

me, that's also, like, therapy

29:20

walking, all of that

29:22

stuff, but I'm like,

29:22

it's such a mental physical game

29:25

of, like, longevity and

29:28

stability and being able to when

29:30

the opportunity does finally knock to

29:32

be able to show up with

29:34

all of the work you've done on yourself

29:37

and on the and enacting itself

29:39

and you're ready to be there because I have also

29:41

seen people sabotage those

29:43

shit out of those opportunities like --

29:45

Oh, yeah. -- sadly because

29:48

the outside stuff that you work on

29:50

was not there. I mean,

29:51

it's wild.

29:53

Yeah. And I think, you know, I owe it, you

29:55

know, because I did I did theater

29:58

for a number of years and really thought that that

30:00

was my Your path. And

30:02

I say now when I moved to

30:04

Los Angeles, I was still an actor.

30:07

But I felt like I changed careers.

30:09

Because for me, the

30:12

the business work

30:14

outside be it, networking be

30:16

it, what's happening in

30:18

the world of film and television is

30:21

equally, if not, more important than

30:23

all of that

30:24

stuff. Yep. No. It's a

30:26

big the business side of it is also

30:28

huge. I mean, oh my god. Like you said some of these

30:30

greatest actors I went to school with,

30:33

didn't have the business head or the business

30:35

savvy of, like, how to

30:39

make a business of yourself and sell

30:42

yourself. I mean, there's also all of that.

30:44

I mean, it's it's it's

30:46

it's a lot.

30:47

It's a lot. You gotta have a very odd

30:49

combination of, like, artists and artistry.

30:52

And at the same time,

30:55

this business sense and this business

30:57

savvy of how to work it, that's

30:59

authentic and feels good to you.

31:02

I mean, I used to waitress at a restaurant and

31:04

bless her, one of my best friends used to

31:06

write her fucking website with a

31:08

real on every check because we would wait

31:10

on Ryan Murphy and the

31:12

creator of Batman and That's

31:14

in in Justin Timberlake. I mean, the freaking

31:17

everybody, this was the power hour lunch

31:19

spot. And that never felt

31:22

authentic to me. Like, I just like,

31:24

I could talk and and

31:26

be like, hey, I just had an audition, you know, like

31:28

something barely that. And I used to come

31:30

home and feel like shit that I was missing

31:32

opportunity. And she totally got a

31:34

job out of

31:35

that. She got a

31:35

nine episode recurring part.

31:38

I would've I would've gone on that on that website.

31:41

Mike. Mike that up. Right? She's

31:43

good. Like, she

31:43

went to Tesla. She's a fucking great actor.

31:47

She has since now retired from the business,

31:49

but at the time, she was

31:51

totally hustling and and so that's what I

31:53

mean to say. Like, you have to figure out how to work the

31:55

business, like, in a way that feels

31:57

good to you. For example, I was

32:00

a babysitter, Nanny, for two

32:02

big casting directors who

32:04

have both or two out of the three

32:06

only casting directors in Hollywood who

32:08

repeatedly hire

32:09

me.

32:09

Nobody else. Really?

32:11

I've said that. Like, honestly, like,

32:13

I've been babysitting and they've been family for

32:16

me for fifteen years.

32:17

Yeah.

32:18

But they wouldn't continue hiring you if you

32:20

could if you didn't deliver when you got

32:22

the job. You know what I felt to

32:24

the whole team, but they're the ones

32:26

that are the gatekeepers. Like, they

32:28

get me in there. But luckily, you're

32:30

really good. Like, if you suck, they

32:32

would have been like, oh, Daz. We got it.

32:34

Should we bring her in

32:35

again? She's really bad. You know what I mean?

32:37

Well, that that could work the other

32:39

way too. It's like, oh, don't wanna lose my

32:41

babysitter.

32:42

Yes. That's true. So

32:45

you Maybe, here's the key.

32:47

Be really nice and respectful and

32:49

and appear to be artistic

32:52

and be kind of a

32:53

shitty. Maybe

32:54

Right. But

32:54

you know what? Kind of was.

32:56

Hey, Jim. Shoot. I looked back and I'm like,

32:59

oh my god. I used to be smoking cigarettes

33:01

out of the car with, like, fling it out as soon

33:03

as I would, like, pick her from school. And then I would

33:05

take her to the zoo or whatever, but have, like,

33:07

the dude I was dating, like, come meet me

33:09

at the zoo. So I would be, like, double asking,

33:12

like, babysitting and going on a

33:14

date. I'm not kidding. Kidding.

33:16

This is news to me. I

33:18

love this story. Oh my

33:20

god. I

33:20

was twenty four and such a

33:23

idiot.

33:24

Wow. But whatever. And they know it now.

33:26

Like, I'm not I

33:27

mean, I hope they do.

33:28

If not, now they know. Now

33:29

they

33:29

know. Please keep hiring me. Keep please keep letting me

33:31

out of it for you. Thank

33:32

you. You do. For

33:35

you, Katie, well, early on,

33:38

I understand you appeared on

33:40

a couple of episodes of both the

33:42

guiding light and Daz the world.

33:45

Turns. I know

33:48

that's not ultimately what you wanted

33:50

to do for your career, but talk

33:52

to me a little bit about that experience.

33:55

Was it awful or did that teach

33:57

you something?

33:58

Yes. Well, I got this

34:00

crazy thing is I got really close on

34:02

both to having,

34:03

like, that being my first job at a college,

34:05

like contract Lowes, like four year

34:08

contract Lowes. And I always, like,

34:10

look back and being, like, oh my god, I was so upset that

34:12

I didn't get it because the money would have been great, but

34:15

I am relieved I didn't get it

34:17

because I I think maybe I would

34:19

have stayed there forever. Like, maybe we still

34:21

would know Katie Loews as who

34:23

the hell knows what their names were, but for fifty

34:26

years, we're gonna play that part. Anyway, Oh,

34:28

no. It was awful. It was so

34:30

embarrassing because on both Lowes, I

34:33

had to oh, no. One, I played a nurse that

34:35

stole drugs. And took them. So that

34:37

was exciting. That's a good part. The

34:40

other one was horrifying because I had to,

34:42

like, have one of those scenes where it's, like,

34:44

oops, see, I forgot my bathing

34:46

suit and, like, jump into a hot tub

34:48

that's a pretend lake with ferns

34:50

around it. And I just remember

34:52

feeling so, like, I was in, like, a

34:54

nude song and, like, the whole crew

34:56

was around. It wasn't a Lowes set. And it was, like,

34:59

I just didn't know at the time what that

35:01

was and I was not a

35:03

comfortable, like, sexy actor. God,

35:05

I've been naked. I've on the podcast. It

35:07

sounds like all I

35:08

do is waste of execution

35:10

and it is truly not. I had a brief moment

35:12

in my early twenties where this occurred

35:14

and it has never really again. So

35:17

But remember just feeling, like, so embarrassed

35:19

and and felt so

35:21

dumb. Like, I I was, like, uh-huh.

35:23

Like, like, just oh, god. Like, my acting

35:25

was terrible and But

35:27

whatever,

35:28

it's part it's part of it. It's it's a

35:30

really just part of the whole thing.

35:32

God,

35:32

I wish

35:32

I had it on VHS. I don't know

35:34

where III

35:35

Yeah. That would be good. I mean, I know you

35:37

only did a few episodes, but the thing

35:39

that I

35:40

Were you on Lowes? No. No.

35:42

We are on. No. But

35:45

the thing that I've always thought about it and

35:47

heard about it is in

35:49

terms of getting a crash

35:51

course of being on camera. Yeah. Soaps

35:54

to me is up another level because you're

35:56

literally being handed pages

35:59

get one shot and it's done.

36:01

Eighty pages a day they do. Yeah.

36:04

Eighty pages. They don't

36:06

block anything. Every blocking has

36:08

either three moves you could do. It's like a

36:10

dooey doe, a like

36:12

stack shot, like anything because

36:14

they can't move cameras. But it's different

36:17

than a multicam. It's not proceed

36:19

you know, it's not proceeding in staging. So

36:21

there's only a few moves you could do.

36:24

Wow. And, yeah, you get one shot. So

36:26

you cannot mess up

36:28

your lines. It's I

36:31

got those actors and also they have

36:33

to turn on the emotion and the water works

36:35

in one second.

36:37

You can't pull out the tear stick and

36:39

There are no tear sticks.

36:41

It's just

36:41

like you just go

36:42

and you're just it's really,

36:45

really a wild place. Guillermo,

36:48

you did not start on soaps.

36:51

But you did a series of

36:53

episodes on what some

36:55

consider Dark Horse's

36:58

greatest thing that ever existed

37:01

the chappell

37:02

show. Talk to me a little bit about how

37:05

that happened and

37:07

what that taught you early

37:09

on. Well,

37:12

I did a movie the movie I did with Dave Chappell,

37:14

half baked. I did that. So Dave

37:17

was, you know, liked my work

37:19

and and dug what I was doing. And

37:21

just he was like, hey, I'm doing this show.

37:24

Come do the show with me. It just felt

37:26

like a continuation of playing like

37:28

we were playing when we did the movie. And

37:30

he he started Chapelle show, like, if

37:33

if I remember correctly, right after

37:35

the film. And it just felt like we

37:37

just kept playing. You know, we were like these just

37:39

big goofballs in doing these

37:42

like, really provocative sketches that

37:44

Dave and Neil Brennan, who is

37:46

his co writer, were writing.

37:48

You know, in one of the sketches he

37:51

the one character uses the n word over

37:53

and over and over and over and back in

37:55

the Daz. They didn't bleep the n word. And now

37:57

if you watch the episodes, it bleeped, but Oh,

37:59

wow. You know, it wasn't it

38:01

wasn't just being used frivolously. It

38:04

was used where there there was a,

38:06

you know, there was a lesson and and

38:08

behind all of it and it was so Martin.

38:10

The writing was so intelligent. And,

38:13

yeah, I just I remember just feeling really,

38:15

really lucky that that Dave gave me that

38:17

opportunity to to work on that show

38:19

with him. And it's funny because before that, I had

38:21

done a show called House of Buggin with

38:24

John Liquizamo, which was a sketch comedy

38:26

show too, which I don't think a lot people

38:28

sort of really heard about or know

38:30

about, but I feel like I I got more

38:33

training there than I did like,

38:36

maybe that sort of helped me to be able

38:38

to do a chappell show because

38:40

was a same sort thing. John Wick was

38:42

almost sort of took me under his wing and then

38:44

brought me on to the show and we would perform

38:46

it, you know, every Thursday after rehearsing

38:49

all week and -- Wow. -- in front

38:51

of a live audience and and we would

38:53

do all these different

38:54

characters. Yeah.

38:55

Lowes is one of those actors that

38:56

can literally do everything. It's so

38:59

insane.

38:59

Like I'm also the most insecure a pure

39:01

freaking actor in person you could

39:03

ever imagine. I think that's why I'm

39:05

constantly like me and Katie were talking about this

39:08

the other day because Katie's in an acting

39:10

class. And I was like, Katie, I kind of wanna go

39:12

and, you know, audit the class and

39:14

possibly

39:14

have to comment a bit just to sort of

39:16

keep keep that instrument

39:19

oiled up so I don't get super

39:21

anxious when I'm not working for long periods

39:23

of

39:23

time. You know what I mean? Yeah.

39:26

Were you aware working on the Chappell

39:28

show? Like, before it comes out

39:31

or before it starts getting the attention it

39:33

does, that what he was

39:35

doing and talking about was

39:37

different and

39:38

unique, not like any other job. Or

39:40

for you, was it a job and you got to play? Yeah.

39:42

I think it was a little bit of both. I remember

39:44

just having such a blast and everything

39:47

being so it was just

39:49

so funny. I remember just like,

39:51

truly, like, sincerely cracking up,

39:54

shooting these sketches. But then also in the

39:56

back of my head, I was like, this is this

39:58

is, like, other level

40:00

because it wasn't just some sort of

40:02

BS like comedy skit.

40:04

There was, again, there was, like, a lesson

40:06

and a point behind

40:08

all of it. So I I remember thinking for

40:11

sure that this this is something

40:12

special, you know. Last

40:14

thing, Prashant Delandah, have to bring up

40:17

the two of you on a lot of my Lowes,

40:20

it says that I was on this little show

40:22

in an uncredited role. This is,

40:24

unfortunately, for me, false, Both

40:27

of you appeared in

40:29

episodes of the Sopranos. Were

40:32

you were you Katie, by the time

40:34

you got on, were you a fan of the

40:35

show? It

40:36

was the biggest show ever. Like,

40:37

it was the biggest show ever. It was the biggest

40:39

show ever. You were aware. Yeah. I was on season six. So it

40:41

was already, like, the biggest show ever. Like, when I called

40:43

my parents to tell them I got one line on the

40:45

Sopranos, like, everyone was

40:48

speechless. Yeah.

40:51

You were on a two? Who did you play?

40:53

No. That's what I'm saying.

40:54

Because it's false credit. Right? I got

40:56

a Out a bunch

40:56

of Lowes. I don't know. And I

40:58

don't know. Who it is? Here,

41:00

Brian. That they think that I was.

41:02

It says I was in an episode of Unaccredited.

41:06

I wasn't at

41:07

all. I never was. That's

41:09

hilarious. I only got

41:11

mine because, actually, everyone just

41:13

found out from each other that we were on this

41:15

approach. I was like, we didn't know that. Yeah.

41:17

By the time got on this front is it was like a

41:19

law in order but like times a million because it was one

41:21

of the few shows that shot in New

41:22

York. So everybody was trying to get on it and also

41:24

it was the biggest show. Right.

41:27

But I had one line and Steve

41:29

Buschami was directing the episode and I had to

41:31

go to SilverCup Studios and go to the callback

41:33

and I was so nervous.

41:36

It was insane. And

41:38

I had to I smoke a cigarette in the

41:41

scene and they're I'm AJ's date to a family

41:43

wedding and a tray of like, oysters

41:45

come around. And the

41:47

the, you know, the waitstaff says,

41:49

like, would you like one? And I take a look. And

41:52

I inhale from my cigarette.

41:54

And I say, I don't eat fish, and then I blow

41:56

out the toxins. Right?

41:59

It doesn't joke why. But

42:02

I was so young. I was twenty one. It was, like,

42:04

twenty two. Like, one of my first jobs and who showed me just

42:06

really didn't want a kid coming in who didn't

42:08

smoke. So they were, like, do you smoke? And I

42:10

was, like, yes. And I'm pretty sure that's the

42:12

only reason why I

42:18

But because it was a wedding, and the whole

42:20

episode took place in one scene

42:22

in this wedding in this wedding venue

42:24

room, and I was AJ's date and I was sitting

42:27

at the family table. I was in the background

42:29

in every scene, so I shot for three

42:32

weeks. Wow. At

42:34

Lenards in Long Island, which is where my

42:36

cousin Michael got amid bombed bombed bombed

42:38

bombed bombed bombed bombed

42:41

bombed bombed bombed bombed bombed bombed

42:43

bombed bombed. Really? I hung out

42:45

with, you know, Tony Saprano in

42:47

his trip, like, the whole cast. They put us up in

42:49

hotels in Long Island. I went out with all of

42:51

them. It was real marketing fun.

42:53

And I actually became lifelong friends with

42:55

Jamie Linxigler who played

42:57

meadow. It's where we met and we've been friends

42:59

ever since. Yes. Mhmm. I

43:03

she and I are friends too. I'm surprised we haven't met.

43:06

Me too bright. In? I know.

43:09

That's very interesting.

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in every scene, so I shot first three

43:41

weeks -- Wow. -- at

43:43

Lenards in Long Island, which is where

43:45

my cousin Michael got mits bar

43:48

mitsford, AND MY WHOLE

43:50

FAMILY CAME THEY LET MY WHOLE FAMILY

43:52

COME TO SET. REALLY? I

43:54

HANG OUT WITH TONY Ciprano

43:56

AND HIS TRIT, LIKE THE WHOLE cast. They put us

43:58

up in hotels in Long Island. I went out with

44:00

all of them. It was a remarkable

44:02

fun. And I actually became lifelong friends

44:04

with Jamie Lynn Siggler who played

44:06

meadow. It's where we met and we've been friends

44:08

ever since. Yes. Mhmm.

44:12

I she and I are friends too. Surprise

44:14

we haven't met.

44:16

Me too, Brian. I know.

44:18

That's very interesting.

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47:47

Before scandal, you appeared

47:50

on two other shows you mentioned briefly

47:52

for Grey's anatomy and

47:54

private practice. Were you

47:56

all in on the Shondaland

47:58

thing before scandal, or were

48:00

these just jobs for you.

48:02

When I was like twenty four, I started

48:04

watching Grey's Anatomy because I had a best friend

48:06

who was on it. And I was like,

48:08

I gotta get on a Shonduran show. Like,

48:10

that was, like, in my head. I

48:12

was, like, I just related to those

48:14

women, more than other women on television

48:16

shows. They looked like

48:18

me. They looked like normal people.

48:21

They talked kind of fast. They

48:23

were really, like, naturalistic. And, like,

48:25

I just felt like, god,

48:27

if I could just get in front of Shonda Rhimes,

48:29

I think she might vibe my vibe.

48:31

Like, I think This

48:34

is a fit and you know what's crazy. This girl I

48:36

used to audition against all the time, Sarah

48:38

Drew, we used to always go head to head on

48:40

everything. She got April

48:42

on Grey's Anatomy. And I was like, great. Get

48:44

this girl out of here. Give this

48:46

girl a job. And in my head, I was like,

48:49

if she, like, Sarah Drew. She's definitely gonna

48:51

like me. Like, we could play sisters. So,

48:55

yeah, I had the Shonda Rhyme's

48:57

bug. Grey's Anatomy was a huge hit.

48:59

And, like, maybe the offense. Like, there were comedies,

49:02

but there weren't a lot of dramas where the

49:04

leading ladies weren't, like, fucking

49:07

alien gorgeous. You know? And I was like,

49:09

I can't I knew that that wasn't

49:11

my type. You know? Like, I just wasn't

49:14

gonna be able to do that. And then I saw

49:16

Grey's and I know, Susandra O

49:18

and Chandra Wilson and and not that they're not

49:20

fucking gorgeous and Meredith Grey

49:22

and and they're all fucking

49:24

gorgeous. But they were like also something

49:26

else going on and I was like, okay,

49:29

I relate.

49:30

So yeah, it had been in my

49:32

head. What about you,

49:35

Guillermo? Were you a fan of the

49:37

Lowes, Grey's Anatomy, or

49:39

private practice, any other? And I do do just

49:41

wanna note that for like a decade,

49:43

Grace Adami aired on the

49:45

opposite of the office. So I just wanna know

49:47

what you were watching on Thursday

49:49

nights at nine o'clock. Guillermo.

49:52

I I was a huge fan of Grey's Anatomy.

49:55

Oh, there you go. There you go.

49:57

Yep. But now the office,

49:59

like, my family is obsessed with the

50:02

offense Same. -- whenever I get back on

50:04

the same. Oh, drop it. Have

50:06

it on in the background. Not

50:07

that. It's not on the start.

50:09

As of the greatest shows of all

50:10

time. One

50:11

of the greatest shows of all

50:11

time. Oh, no. So, yeah, I was a fan

50:14

of race anatomy for sure.

50:15

You were. Yes. Yeah. Were you trying to

50:17

get in the show I mean, No. I mean, look,

50:19

it's sort of a

50:20

I was just trying to get a job.

50:22

Yeah. Exactly. I mean, but do you remember

50:25

your experience auditioning?

50:27

I do. Yeah. It was very it was, you

50:30

know, I had one audition. I

50:32

I was I was very reluctant

50:35

to audition for the role because I

50:37

didn't understand why they wanted to see me

50:40

in the character description was, you

50:42

know, he was a lot older and sort

50:44

of described as a nevish older

50:47

guy who was obsessed with figurines. And

50:49

I was like, what the hell is going on?

50:51

Why am I going in for

50:52

this? He was all pissed. He's never gonna get this

50:54

in my fifties. I'm not one fifties. And

50:56

now I'm fifty one, and I'm like, fifty

50:58

is the new twenty six, like, you know.

51:01

But I had that one audition and and I

51:03

just went for it and and,

51:05

yeah, I've tested for other shows and

51:08

it's been the most grueling and

51:10

nerve racking

51:10

experience. I'm sure Katie can agree

51:13

with me.

51:13

Oh, I just want to But the fact

51:15

that Shonda did not put us through that

51:19

fresh hell of testing over and

51:21

over was so

51:22

nice. Wait. Talk to me about this.

51:24

What are you talking about? There's no testing.

51:27

No.

51:28

didn't test for her. She didn't test anybody.

51:30

I mean, their what they did was

51:32

they would make an audition tape in Linda

51:34

Lowes off face and her, you know, Linda Louie cast

51:37

grays and cast scandal and cast private. And

51:39

she would make the tape in

51:41

the office and Shonna would have her pick

51:43

and Linda would have her pick. They would be the same person.

51:46

And they would send it to ABC Studio

51:48

Network to be nice for, like, approval.

51:51

But, like, they just sent the tape that you made

51:53

in the room. You never had to go to studio

51:55

or network and do the scene

51:56

again. That's amazing. Brian

51:58

is like, yeah. It was and

52:00

he said why? Because Linda

52:02

is married to Jeff Perry who played

52:04

Cyrus on scandal, but

52:06

Linda loves actors. And

52:09

she's just, like, not gonna fucking do

52:11

that. Like, that's not her at a certain

52:13

point when they could when they got to place

52:15

of success that they did not have to do that with

52:17

ABC, they did not. And we benefited

52:20

from it. Yes. We did. My

52:22

god. Now I really

52:25

wanna get into this chandelier.

52:27

No. That is that is

52:29

incredible. That is unbelievable. Yeah.

52:31

It's insane. It's really

52:34

like, I auditioned once in the room, Chonda

52:36

gave me a redirect. Audition. I did the scene

52:38

again. They taped both takes. And then two

52:40

weeks later, she called me into the office for what

52:42

I thought was me going

52:44

to audition again. And she

52:47

was sitting in the room, and I

52:49

it was weird, and there was a tape going. And I was like, okay.

52:51

Should I start the scene? And she was like, oh, no. You don't have to.

52:53

I've already sent the tape that

52:55

you made two weeks ago to studio

52:57

and network, you've already been approved and I'm going

52:59

to give you the part. And they videotaped

53:02

it and I started ugly sobbing beyond

53:04

epic believe Brian, like boogers, not

53:06

I mean, I was running for my fucking babysitting

53:09

job from family who didn't believe in diapers where the

53:11

baby was just pooping in between my legs over

53:13

toilet. And and

53:16

I had the sides in my bag

53:19

for another audition the next Daz.

53:21

And I remember just, like, after

53:23

they told me, and I was hysterical crying.

53:25

My didn't even

53:26

know. Nobody knew.

53:27

Wait. Why did she call you back in? They wanted this

53:29

video to take your response. And it's off of the scenes

53:32

DVD of season one. And I looked like

53:34

a five year old. And

53:37

I had to sit in my car. I remember

53:40

after ICE was sobbing. And I was like, what do I do now? And

53:42

she was like, well, wardrobe is gonna call you, and there's gonna

53:44

be a table read. And I was like, there's gonna be

53:46

table read.

53:50

And then she was like and I said, this is the best

53:52

day of my life, and she was like, but you just got

53:54

engaged. I was like, this is way better.

53:58

Like, my Asian was a horrible and a panic

54:00

attack. I'm so scared to get married, but I've been

54:02

fighting for this my whole life. Like Oh

54:04

my god. And even

54:06

then, you know, like, I think what was so and

54:08

I'm sure I've been it was probably similar with

54:10

the office actually. Like, we were never

54:12

like, oh, yeah. We're getting picked up again.

54:14

Yeah. We're a hit show. Like, we were all

54:17

so fucking

54:19

tired and grateful to have a job

54:22

and never ever took

54:24

for granted like we were a shoe in. So

54:27

and she had something. She's caught on our podcast

54:29

and said, you know, she had a no asshole. She called

54:31

our previous couple bosses to

54:33

vouch for us and our

54:35

behavior and our personalities. Oh,

54:38

who? Yeah. She was pretty

54:40

serious about putting together a group

54:42

of, like, nice people.

54:45

Well, based on what I've heard from Bellemeade, everyone

54:48

was. They were it's really

54:50

gross. It's just gross. Like, the press

54:52

used to come up to us and be that ad events and be

54:54

like, do you guys hang out with anybody else? Because

54:56

we would just sort of

54:57

be with each other at all these many younger

55:00

days or with Yeah.

55:01

After, like, eight years, they'd be like, but

55:03

can you guys go talk to, we'd be like, no. We only

55:05

just, like, love each other. It

55:08

was pretty magical from the

55:10

audition all the way through. That's

55:12

just so crazy. Like, the shoot the other

55:14

shoe never dropped. Girl was like, and that's

55:16

when everything went south. Nope.

55:19

Right.

55:20

One of the things that Bellemeade said to me

55:22

was that the the

55:24

cast of scandal was like a

55:26

bunch of theater kids.

55:28

Totally. I also think theater

55:30

people for you I think too.

55:32

Like, I think theater people have this

55:34

sense of the ensemble. Like,

55:36

it's something bigger than your

55:38

own singular performance. Which

55:41

I I think is such a healthy way

55:43

for a long running television show. It

55:45

it makes it so that, yes, I mean, Kerry Washington

55:48

was obviously the star of scandal. But,

55:50

like, storylines move around

55:52

so much when you've been on the show. And I

55:54

think so much of, like, theater background

55:57

is, like, this is an ensemble. This

55:59

is, like, their storyline this week, and my

56:01

storyline next year. And, like, you know,

56:03

just really understanding that you're part of a

56:05

much bigger

56:06

thing. Was there any conscious

56:09

conversation about

56:12

differentiating it from

56:15

other shows about politics that

56:17

had existed before.

56:19

You mean, like West Wing or something? Well, yeah,

56:21

like West wing. I mean Nadia was obsessed

56:23

with she was a huge west wing fan.

56:25

Okay.

56:26

And I remember when Malena walked on to set,

56:28

judge Malena. It was the only time I've seen her starstruck

56:30

in the last. Fifteen

56:32

years. God, it was so crazy

56:34

to be on a political show then, wasn't it? Gee,

56:36

God. Yeah.

56:38

Yeah. But I don't even don't even remember any

56:40

other I didn't watch West Wing, but I don't even remember

56:42

any other what were the other political shows

56:44

that were were there even any others

56:46

on at the

56:47

time? Well, no. I mean,

56:49

v came on after two. Yeah.

56:51

And I was all offended at the same time.

56:54

I remember reading some article in The New York

56:56

Times maybe or the LA Times where, like, as

56:58

soon as Trump got elected, Veep

57:00

ended and Sean had chose to end scandal

57:02

because she was, like, I'm I'm doing

57:05

terrible job quoting this. But she said something like, it's one thing to

57:07

write political show when all the lights are on in Washington.

57:09

But when all the lights are off in DC and we don't

57:11

know what the fuck is going on anymore, I can't

57:14

write any I can't do this world anymore.

57:16

It was one of the reasons she's,

57:18

like I mean, she always knew that Scanna

57:20

would have beginning middle and end, but I

57:23

know that that did not help things at

57:25

all. Yeah, it was crazy.

57:27

I remember the cast always being dropped into DC

57:30

for White House correspondent dinner and it was saying

57:32

we all got to meet Barack Obama and Michelle

57:34

Obama and Michelle Obama is all telling us that

57:36

we she watched scandal all day and it's her,

57:38

like, thing to do on weekends. And I've just

57:40

about died on the floor. Like, I just was

57:42

like, this is insane. Yeah.

57:45

Yeah. Your

57:48

characters, you guys had little

57:50

romance? At one point -- Oh,

57:52

yeah. -- a very a very

57:55

dark, dysfunctional chaotic

57:59

romance, on air quoting, if you would

58:01

even call it a romance. I think it was more

58:03

of

58:03

a, I don't know, like a crazy sort

58:06

of connection that they had and they just

58:08

lusted after each other and

58:10

We sleep like crazy motherfuckers. Like

58:13

-- Yeah. -- so Garibo plays a

58:15

spy towards killer, but he takes

58:17

me under his wing, and I get really good also.

58:19

And then we bone town USA for,

58:21

like, a bunch of while. But it's like I I

58:23

was being jealous. I was pretty jealous.

58:25

I was being delicate for a purpose. So

58:28

insane. And How was that filming

58:30

together?

58:31

It was that. But it's hell.

58:35

I say that about nobody else by the

58:37

way. The the times

58:39

on the show that I got to torture people

58:43

or have

58:44

crazy, like, on camera sex

58:46

with Quinn. We're the most

58:48

fun ever. You know what I mean? This

58:50

real Debbie Allen directed the first episode

58:53

where we had to, like,

58:55

I smack your face, then you

58:57

grab my cheeks so that I can't speak.

58:59

You're, like, hurting my face. And, oh, I smacked

59:01

him so

59:01

hard. His ears was ringing. It was awful.

59:04

My earring for, like, half an hour. I've talked

59:06

about this on other Lowes. But I was like, Katie,

59:08

smack me for real, like, do it for

59:10

real for real. And then I was like, what

59:12

did you say, Debbie?

59:14

Like, I'm trying to because, like, we

59:17

had been friends for three years already

59:19

and done three seasons when our characters

59:21

took a turn to get together. So we

59:23

had a lot of actually, like, accurate conversations

59:26

where we were like, we gotta use a lot of

59:28

tongue. Like, these two are

59:30

not this classic movie

59:32

star TV kissing bullshit where

59:35

her

59:35

hair Oh, no. Just a lot of lip. Like,

59:37

we're fans of that. Like, we love watching

59:39

Kerry and fits fits in Olivia do

59:41

that. But for Quinn and Hock, they

59:43

beat to a different drum. They're super

59:45

weird, super kinked out.

59:48

They torture people for fun. So we

59:50

were like, these to feel authentic

59:53

to them, we have to be weird.

59:56

Yeah. And thank God, we were so Lowes,

59:58

and I we felt really safe and,

1:00:00

like, able to go there because I I actually

1:00:02

think it would have been really weird. Had

1:00:04

Quinn and Hock just sorta

1:00:05

done, like, p g thirteen

1:00:08

sort of five, like, they were weird.

1:00:10

Yeah. I also feel like I don't know if I would've been

1:00:12

able to if we would've been able to do this if

1:00:14

it wasn't you and

1:00:15

I. Like, I I know I I wanted to oh

1:00:18

my god. Oh my god. No. If I had a different actor

1:00:20

that I was working with, I was playing Quint. I don't know

1:00:22

if I would have felt so comfortable or to

1:00:24

be like, hey, Katie. Like, let's Really?

1:00:26

But I didn't ask you. Yeah.

1:00:29

I didn't even ask

1:00:30

you, but I did. I stood on you. But then

1:00:32

afterwards, I was like, oh my god. I'm so sorry. You were

1:00:34

like, I don't care.

1:00:35

Well, Yaron, we had already had the conversation

1:00:37

left. You didn't do anything. Like, you were

1:00:39

so gay. We just felt very

1:00:41

safe and and Did

1:00:42

you have a safe word? No.

1:00:44

Wow.

1:00:47

What so wait. Did

1:00:49

you take it further than the writers

1:00:52

had

1:00:53

intended. Yes.

1:00:55

I think so.

1:00:56

I think so too. Yeah. But they like They

1:00:58

wrote

1:00:58

weird shit. So, like, we had already

1:01:00

licked each other's faces

1:01:03

Right. He had pulled my teeth

1:01:05

out with dryers.

1:01:08

That had already been in the script.

1:01:10

So it's like Yeah. And

1:01:13

maybe they didn't write spit or slap

1:01:16

or -- Right. -- that kind of thing, but

1:01:18

we had already gone to some

1:01:20

really freaking weird dark

1:01:22

places, but I do think we took it further

1:01:24

than what they wrote. Yeah.

1:01:26

Seven years together -- Mhmm. -- very

1:01:28

difficult. To say goodbye.

1:01:31

How was it for you

1:01:33

all? I I feel like it

1:01:35

was difficult to say goodbye to the show

1:01:38

But it wasn't difficult to say goodbye to

1:01:40

the I mean, it was difficult, but

1:01:42

I felt like they're gonna be in my life forever.

1:01:45

So that didn't feel like I was like there

1:01:47

was I was experiencing a loss as

1:01:49

far as the actors. But the show, I was

1:01:51

I was I mourned I mean,

1:01:54

playing puck for a long

1:01:55

time. I'm still mourning it. He's the

1:01:57

greatest character of all time. You know, we were

1:01:59

really lucky, Shonda had told us a year

1:02:01

before that it was ending,

1:02:03

so we had a lot of good buys.

1:02:05

We had a lot of last things.

1:02:07

I feel like I

1:02:09

actually was kind of relieved like

1:02:12

as weird as that is. just felt like

1:02:14

we did it. Like, we did it well.

1:02:16

We did the goodbyes well. We played

1:02:18

our parts well. No one everyone

1:02:20

left on amazing terms. Like, I just was so

1:02:22

proud of us that we all, like, laid our heads

1:02:25

on the pillow at the rack being,

1:02:27

like, we fucking did that show.

1:02:29

I was, like, so proud. And not

1:02:32

to say that it would have taken a turn, you know, I

1:02:34

think we could have done it for a million more years,

1:02:36

but we really finished on a high, and that's

1:02:38

what Shonda wanted, And I do think

1:02:40

it would have been different to be on a political show

1:02:42

under a different presidency. I do.

1:02:44

Like, I think, you know, we

1:02:46

were sort of in this wonderful

1:02:49

bubble of --

1:02:49

Yeah. -- like

1:02:50

Obama and the world looked different and it

1:02:53

was pre pandemic and -- Yeah. -- so

1:02:55

I'm sort of glad it ended where it did

1:02:57

and they gave us so many chances to say

1:02:59

goodbye. Yeah.

1:03:00

Nice. We're watching episodes now

1:03:02

of the show and Katie and I are like, it's

1:03:05

so much crazier in real life than we

1:03:08

were ever on the show, politically wise,

1:03:10

that you're right. I don't know if it would have

1:03:12

if it would have even, you know, resonated

1:03:15

with people, it would have been like

1:03:16

vanilla. Yeah. How would I mean with

1:03:18

all the crazy stuff that's going on? Yeah.

1:03:20

Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know.

1:03:22

I think we got out with our with our

1:03:24

heads held high and and we should be

1:03:26

grateful for

1:03:27

that. You have a new podcast

1:03:30

unpack active tool toolbox

1:03:32

-- Yeah, Brian. -- about scandal. What

1:03:34

what made you wanna dive back

1:03:36

into it? Would you just miss each

1:03:38

other? To office, ladies.

1:03:40

Okay.

1:03:41

And I was listening to all these other and

1:03:43

I was like, yo, someone is definitely

1:03:46

gonna jump on this scandal thing, and it should

1:03:48

definitely be me, Guillermo. I

1:03:51

had already had a podcast for

1:03:53

five years called Katie's crib that's also reduced

1:03:55

by Shondaland audio and it's parenting podcast

1:03:58

and it was the first one they had underneath Shondaland's

1:04:00

audio department. Yeah. So I just

1:04:03

called them and I was like, Do you think you could do a

1:04:05

scandal rewatch? I feel like we have a hundred

1:04:07

and twenty four episodes. The gladiators have

1:04:09

been bored out of their minds with no content

1:04:11

for years since we went off the air.

1:04:13

Guillermo and I love to hang out anyway, and

1:04:16

we're funny and cute even though you don't see us,

1:04:18

our voices are delicious. Let's

1:04:20

do this. And I pitched it before I

1:04:22

even had, like, a yes from I didn't even tell

1:04:24

you about it. You

1:04:27

knew I was gonna be, like, hell yeah. So,

1:04:30

I mean, he's the busiest actor and he's

1:04:32

very, very in demand and everybody wants

1:04:34

him. But I was like,

1:04:34

dude, you could just stay at home. In.

1:04:37

So in. Yeah.

1:04:40

That's awesome. Yeah. I know you're not

1:04:42

on Twitter that much anymore, Katie, but I still

1:04:44

am. And the amount of people that

1:04:46

are listening to the podcast and

1:04:48

are flipping out over it and are so excited

1:04:51

about it and have started to rewatch

1:04:53

scandalous. My heart is

1:04:56

remarkable. The other thing Brian, like

1:04:58

the office, that everyone's, like, watching it

1:05:00

now, and you're probably getting, like, Grey's

1:05:02

Anatomy, has all these new teenagers that

1:05:04

are literally starting Grey's Anatomy from the beginning.

1:05:06

The office is having the same thing. And

1:05:09

scandal, I didn't know until

1:05:11

us re watching it. One hundred

1:05:13

percent holds up. Yes.

1:05:16

And works and is

1:05:18

wonderful ride of TV.

1:05:20

And I'm just like, it's on Hulu. You guys

1:05:22

can stream this. Like, I'm watching all the

1:05:24

other hot shows that are nominated for every fucking

1:05:26

Emmy under the sun

1:05:27

and, like, Skit feels a great

1:05:29

show. Yeah.

1:05:32

Is it fun to go back and rewatch? Do

1:05:34

you remember it? It it was

1:05:36

it was a scary at first to think

1:05:38

about having to go and start to watch

1:05:40

all these episodes. But now so much time has passed,

1:05:43

I feel like I'm watching someone else, and

1:05:45

that's really really nice. Do you

1:05:47

know what I mean? Like, I feel like I'm a true scandal

1:05:49

fan now a gladiator. And

1:05:51

I'm able to just enjoy it, you know,

1:05:53

without any of

1:05:55

my critical brain jumping in and

1:05:58

being like, why did you do that like that or why

1:06:00

did you say that line like that? I'm I'm

1:06:02

just sitting back and enjoying it and it's so

1:06:04

freaking good. And I'm so good.

1:06:06

You're so good. Oh, good.

1:06:09

No. I was

1:06:09

thinking.

1:06:10

It's also the perfect amount of time. Like,

1:06:12

I think, it's been ten years.

1:06:15

Since the first season. So we're I

1:06:17

don't I'm like, who is that?

1:06:19

Like, this is so

1:06:21

long ago. And like you said, I don't really remember

1:06:24

a lot of this scenes that I

1:06:25

shot, but I do remember the

1:06:28

behind the scenes stuff.

1:06:29

Right. There he is. Yes. Yeah.

1:06:31

Same. That's awesome.

1:06:33

That's awesome. Yeah.

1:06:34

You're awesome, Brian.

1:06:35

You're awesome, Brian. Stop

1:06:38

it. Keep going. As

1:06:41

Katie mentioned, Guillermo, you're the busiest

1:06:43

man in television

1:06:45

recently, law and order organized crime.

1:06:49

How was that? It was

1:06:51

it was was trippy, but at the same

1:06:53

time, it's a universe that I

1:06:55

always feel comfortable in when

1:06:57

they invite me back back and it was

1:06:59

a blast. And and, you know, and in and in this

1:07:02

law and order organized crime, I was

1:07:04

not playing a criminal. I was playing a --

1:07:06

Yeah. -- a detective. Look at you.

1:07:08

Which which were nice.

1:07:10

Baby has grown up. Oh, yeah.

1:07:13

But he was still he was still unconscious.

1:07:15

Like, the character was sort of crooked internationally.

1:07:18

Yeah. And and I got to,

1:07:20

you know, to act with Chris Maloney

1:07:22

and and Morrishna Hargate

1:07:24

and iced tea because there was a lot of crossover

1:07:27

with a lawnmower SBU. So it was

1:07:29

it was really really fun. And don't know if

1:07:31

I'm going back. was occurring on the show. I don't know if

1:07:33

I'm going

1:07:34

back, but Life of

1:07:35

an actor, folks. Life of an actor. Yeah.

1:07:38

Yeah. And

1:07:41

Katie, you, of course, were

1:07:43

in the most talked about

1:07:45

show of twenty twenty

1:07:47

two inventing Inventing Anna.

1:07:50

Shondaland. Yeah. Thanks for having

1:07:52

me. To the Shondaland universe,

1:07:55

were you surprised

1:07:58

by all of the

1:08:00

discussion of that. It's so

1:08:02

bizarre to me. People are like the most

1:08:04

obsessed with that story of all time. I truly

1:08:06

was not. I've talked about this with Shauna. Like,

1:08:09

she's obsessed with the story and people are obsessed with

1:08:11

an adulty. I'm like, this bitch is

1:08:13

a psycho and a sociopath

1:08:15

and not kind and broke

1:08:18

laws and, like, get her out of here. Like, I don't

1:08:20

understand. But I I don't know.

1:08:22

People are upset. I mean, people talk to me every day I

1:08:24

get a text

1:08:24

message. Like, did you hear what's happening in with Anna Delphi? Like,

1:08:26

she's doing this out. I'm like, I don't care.

1:08:28

They gave her a goddamn show. She got

1:08:30

They gave her a goddamn show. No. No.

1:08:33

This is a criminal. Yeah. She's a criminal. I

1:08:35

don't I I never was, like, that

1:08:37

obsessed with, look, I was so thrilled to

1:08:39

be part of the story, and I'm so glad the

1:08:41

show was wildly successful. And Julia

1:08:43

Garner, I would act with her if she was

1:08:46

reading the phone book. She's so genius and

1:08:48

Clifford Cox and Anna Klumski, and

1:08:50

I mean, the cast was ridiculous. And of course, Sean

1:08:52

did the writing was wonderful. And I got to

1:08:55

play a part that was so

1:08:57

difficult and I got to go to Morocco for a

1:08:59

month and stay in the hotel where my character was

1:09:01

calm and I took my whole family and it was the shit.

1:09:04

That's awesome. I feel like that was my

1:09:06

swan song playing twenty seven year old,

1:09:08

like I-forty.

1:09:12

Me too. Like, I can't.

1:09:15

Yeah. Like, whoa. It's

1:09:17

so fascinating, though, because

1:09:19

there were couple of years ago, it was the

1:09:21

the murder doc serious

1:09:23

stuff. You know, there was the, you know, both

1:09:26

murder and the Wisconsin Town.

1:09:28

I can't remember what it

1:09:29

was called. Like, that was the thing. And then last

1:09:31

year, it was like all of the

1:09:33

con things. And I have to say

1:09:35

-- Yeah. -- I'm a dropout. The

1:09:37

dropout

1:09:38

that you -- Uber. -- vanting

1:09:40

the the Tinder swindler.

1:09:41

The Tinder swindler. Yeah. Yeah. All of these

1:09:43

stories about these people who are

1:09:46

just horribly deceptive

1:09:49

people doing terrible things to people.

1:09:51

And I'm a little bit like you where

1:09:53

I'm

1:09:54

like, I don't understand why we just don't

1:09:56

take these people and lock them away.

1:09:58

I don't either. I yeah. I was it was

1:10:00

never a big thing for me, but That was

1:10:02

like for the job. Well, it was a great show with

1:10:04

a great performance by you and

1:10:07

I

1:10:08

had to cry a lot. Seriously?

1:10:09

He was good to cry a lot. A lot.

1:10:11

And but you got the stick. So you

1:10:13

did you didn't back in the stick all day.

1:10:16

You didn't back in the I have, like, an hours

1:10:18

worth of takes. And me with that one, if that and

1:10:20

then I'm like, Teraustin.

1:10:22

Yeah. Yeah. I don't care who

1:10:24

knows it.

1:10:26

You guys are awesome.

1:10:28

Thank you so much for taking the time to hang

1:10:30

out with me

1:10:31

for You're awesome, Brian. There are awesome.

1:10:34

Unpacking the toolbox if

1:10:37

you're a scandal fan, or even

1:10:39

if you're not --

1:10:40

Yeah. Totally. -- right now, check

1:10:43

out the podcast because that will

1:10:45

enable you to definitely check out

1:10:47

scandal. You guys thank you

1:10:49

so much. Come back anytime. Thank

1:10:52

you, Brian. Thank you. Bye bye. Bye, everybody.

1:11:06

Katie, Guillermo. You guys are

1:11:08

the best. Thank you so much. Good luck

1:11:11

on the podcast unpacking the

1:11:13

toolbox, and thank you so much

1:11:15

for joining me. And telling me the

1:11:17

juiciest scandal ever

1:11:20

because that is definitely what just happened.

1:11:23

Listeners make sure to tune in to their

1:11:25

podcast and come back here next

1:11:27

week. For more stories off

1:11:30

the beat, it can't come soon enough,

1:11:32

and have a great week, everyone. Off

1:11:43

the beat is hosted an executive produced

1:11:46

by me, Baumgartner, alongside

1:11:48

our executive producer, Ling Li.

1:11:50

Our senior producer is Diego Topia.

1:11:53

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1:11:55

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1:11:57

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1:11:59

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1:12:00

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