0:00

She's here! She's

0:03

here! I just saw her upstairs!

0:06

Who is? Adelheid, you're shaking. Calm down. No,

0:11

I must tell you. Miss Turner, the mistress's lady's maid,

0:13

is here, upstairs. Why?

0:16

Does she want her job back? No! She's here

0:18

for Mrs. Russell's opera tea. As

0:20

a guest! What? She

0:23

came in and handed me her coat, and Mr.

0:25

Church announced her as Mrs. Winter! I

0:28

don't understand. Neither do I! Wake

0:30

up! This is America,

0:30

you can be anything you want, I should know!

0:38

Hello to all of you fellow fans

0:40

of history and opulence and Aunt Agnes's

0:42

sassiest eyes. I'm Tom Myers from the Bowery Boys podcast,

0:45

and welcome back to the official Gilded Age podcast.

0:49

This is your companion to the HBO original series, The Gilded

0:51

Age, and

0:53

I'm Alicia Malone from Turner Classic Movies. Now Tom,

0:55

in the last episode we spoke about playing tennis in

0:58

suits, and the shock return of Turner. You

1:02

mean Mrs. Winterton, right? Yeah.

1:05

Well, in this episode we'll talk more about her society

1:07

glow-up,

1:08

the rift

1:10

she causes between Bertha and George, and we'll even go

1:12

to the theatre with Oscar Wilde. We'll

1:16

also be speaking to director and executive producer Michael

1:18

Engler, and costume designer

1:20

Kasia Wielicka-Mamon.

1:23

Now that we've established all those characters,

1:25

and that we know how the world works, the fun of

1:27

season two is that we watch them all playing that game and

1:29

working their opportunities and

1:36

around the obstacles each of them

1:38

has in a way that we now know as much about the world as they

1:40

do. So

1:43

what do you think, Tom? Should we get into it? Let's

1:45

do.

2:00

Season 2, Episode 3, Head

2:02

to Head, written by Julian Sillis

2:04

and Sonya Warfield, and directed by

2:06

Michael Engler.

2:08

It all kicks off with shots of delicious

2:10

cakes. The Russell House is getting ready

2:13

to host a tea in aid of the Metropolitan

2:15

Opera House, and we immediately hear

2:17

that Ward McAllister is bringing Mrs.

2:20

Winterton, and I was surprised that Bertha

2:22

is okay with this.

2:24

And it's not just because it makes good TV. No,

2:27

Bertha's okay with it because she

2:29

wants the Wintertons to take a box

2:32

at the new Met, even if they keep their

2:34

old box at the old Academy of Music. Why

2:36

not be patrons of both?

2:38

Well, George seems to think that they might be punished

2:40

for that. He says, isn't lending

2:42

status to the new house a serious

2:45

crime?

2:45

But Bertha isn't concerned, and

2:47

she feels she might actually have the upper hand

2:50

here with Turner. After all, Bertha

2:52

knows Turner's big secret. Well,

2:54

when Mrs. Winterton arrives at

2:56

the Russell, she saunters in as if

2:58

she wasn't just working there. And understandably,

3:01

everyone else in the house is shocked

3:03

to see her and that she's announced

3:06

as a guest. Adelheid runs

3:08

downstairs and screams, she's here!

3:11

By the way, Kelly Curran, plain

3:13

Turner,

3:14

is loving this. You

3:16

can just see how much fun she's

3:18

having with this role. Oh my gosh,

3:20

the faces she makes. I'm sure

3:22

have launched a thousand

3:24

memes. A thousand Turner

3:26

memes. And poor Adelheid

3:28

is really just in shock. I mean, she even bumps

3:30

into George Russell as George and

3:33

Church are exchanging knowing glances. Bertha

3:36

had warned Church about a surprise

3:38

guest, but he clearly hadn't expected

3:41

her. Although after what

3:43

he'd already learned about Mr. Watson's

3:45

story, I mean, come on, it's clear that

3:47

social mobility is alive and well

3:50

among the Russell staff. Some people are going

3:52

up and some are going down.

3:53

Yeah, I love how Borden says, in

3:56

America, you can be anything you want.

3:58

I should know. And it does seem

4:00

like the American dream to

4:03

switch classes like this, but was

4:05

that actually common for a servant to become

4:07

a lady?

4:08

I believe that that would have

4:10

been exceedingly rare, right? Which is why everybody

4:12

is speechless here. Although many domestic

4:15

workers in New York at the time probably

4:18

viewed their positions, you know, especially

4:20

in grand houses like the Russells,

4:22

as already being a step up the ladder

4:25

from where many of them had started. The

4:27

Turner becoming a lady? I mean,

4:30

that was shocking.

4:31

So there was a lot happening

4:33

at this opera tea. Bertha is now

4:35

on the board of the Met, and we hear that

4:37

the new opera house will open on the same

4:39

night as the Academy season is

4:42

due to start, which is not well

4:44

received by Mrs. Astor and Agnes.

4:47

This was a real slap in the face.

4:50

And this opening night face-off

4:52

is historically true. The new Metropolitan

4:55

Opera House opened on October 22nd, 1883, the very same

4:57

night that the

5:00

Academy of Music opened its 1883 season. And

5:05

the Met really did open with

5:07

the performance of Gunod's Faust, starring

5:11

our favorite Swedish singing sensation,

5:13

Alicia, Christina Nielsen, whom

5:16

we met in that very first episode.

5:18

Yeah, so then I suppose that opera

5:20

lovers did have to choose which

5:23

performance to go to. Mm

5:25

hmm. Okay, so in our story, the wealthy

5:27

are being forced to pick sides, the Met or the

5:29

Academy, but Bertha seems to be pressuring

5:32

Ward McAllister to also choose between

5:34

supporting her or supporting Mrs. Astor.

5:37

He's made it clear to Bertha

5:39

that he couldn't possibly cross

5:41

his mystic rose, Mrs. Astor. And

5:44

yet he sticks around to lend some

5:47

sort of support to Bertha. So he's

5:49

kind of playing both sides here, isn't he? Well,

5:51

absolutely. He's attending both tees.

5:54

Yes, he's literally playing both sides

5:56

of 61st Street. I mean, he's ducking out of Bertha's

5:58

party. sneak across the street

6:00

to Agnes and Mrs. Anster's Tea for

6:02

the Academy and quite a crossing

6:05

it was by the way. He was dodging cards and

6:07

people and horses. Very funny.

6:10

Watch your step Ward and by the

6:12

way I was also struck by how much busier

6:15

61st Street got over the past

6:17

year. And dirtier. Yeah

6:19

there's lots of activity

6:21

and that was a funny moment. It was almost as if

6:23

Ward was doing like a walk of shame

6:26

you know rushing across the road

6:27

trying not to let anyone see

6:29

him. Nathan Lane brings

6:32

so much physicality

6:33

toward. He does yeah there

6:35

was nothing inconspicuous about his

6:37

sneaking across the street. He's

6:40

immediately ushered into Agnes' party which

6:42

is being held at the request

6:45

or at the command really of Mrs. Anster.

6:47

Did you notice that Agnes keeps

6:50

calling her Lena? Yeah

6:51

she likes to use that nickname.

6:53

Yeah I mean I think it was just

6:55

used by her closest friends. I don't think we could

6:57

have gotten away with it. No. But I'm actually

6:59

kind of glad that Agnes can you know.

7:01

They're close. But Mrs.

7:04

Anster is shocked at birth's impertinence

7:07

right and pushing forward with the Met Opera

7:10

and even joining its board. It is really

7:12

a direct affront on her. She

7:14

says after all didn't I make

7:16

her what she is today to which

7:18

Agnes Snark's gratitude is

7:21

not a natural instinct in that

7:23

class.

7:24

That class. And

7:26

then Ward says no

7:28

to Morty because he's had plenty and

7:31

informs Mrs. Anster about the Met opening

7:33

on the same night as the Academy. So Mrs.

7:35

Anster springs into action

7:38

and Agnes is very ready to

7:40

help. There must be room

7:42

for two opera houses in the city like

7:44

New York. Nonsense. Now what can

7:46

we do. Give us orders. In your letter you said

7:48

you were at a task for me. Yes. Agnes

7:51

I would like you to write to the older members. Say

7:53

that you've heard a rumor that if any of them

7:55

are thinking of taking a box at the Metropolitan

7:58

their box at the Academy will be removed. Good

8:00

and here it is. I can't do it, as I

8:02

would make the threat official.

8:03

But you can. Have you got all

8:06

that, Miss Scott?

8:07

Everywhere. We'll begin the lettuce at once.

8:09

Who won't, Miss Scott? Of course.

8:11

Thank you.

8:12

I think I'll take my leave before you

8:14

start handing out weapons. If only

8:17

it was that simple. I

8:20

love how proactive Agnes is here.

8:22

I mean, we are really seeing a fighting

8:25

side to her, you know? And meanwhile,

8:27

Aurora quickly gets out of there.

8:30

She is also kind of playing both sides.

8:33

She's become quite cozy with

8:35

Bertha and obviously is close

8:37

to Mrs. Astra. Yeah, I think she's trying

8:39

to stay neutral, but I'm not sure

8:42

if that would be possible. Probably not.

8:43

So in real life, would there have been this

8:46

much hostility from the old Academy crowd

8:48

toward those supporting the Met? Well,

8:51

I think it

8:51

would have made sense if there were, right? For

8:53

one thing, we're talking about a business. An

8:56

opera house was very expensive,

8:58

still is expensive, but was very expensive to

9:00

run and often lost a lot of money. And

9:03

the Academy wanted to keep

9:05

the new families there at least coming

9:08

and supporting it financially. But

9:10

obviously the Vanderbilt and the others were tired

9:12

of sitting down in the main auditorium and looking

9:15

up at the Astra's and Rhinelanders and the rest

9:17

of them up in those 18 boxes. So

9:20

they started to leave? Yes. And

9:22

the new families leaving the Academy really,

9:24

I think, rang a few alarm bells. Mrs.

9:27

Astra would obviously lose some opportunities

9:30

to sort of strutter stuff up there, but

9:32

on a more basic level, the Academy

9:34

could lose a lot of money. It could

9:36

even shut down. And those millionaires

9:39

down in the main auditorium, as we've seen,

9:41

didn't feel any loyalty to it. They

9:44

were only too happy to head off

9:46

to the Met where they could become subscribers

9:49

and in real life pay $15,000 to

9:52

secure a box, which using

9:54

the same estimates would be around $450,000 today.

9:59

lot of money. A lot.

10:03

So back in our story just

10:05

as Bertha was wrapping up her tea, Mrs. Winterton

10:08

approaches. Wait, should we call her Mrs. Winterton

10:11

or Turner? I think we have

10:12

to call her Mrs. Winterton, right? I mean that

10:14

is what Church instructs his staff. It

10:17

is her name now.

10:18

Okay, so we'll listen to Church and it's

10:20

Mrs. Winterton from now on. Anyway,

10:23

the war between these ladies may even

10:25

be hotter than the Opera War because Mrs.

10:27

Winterton makes it clear she's not going

10:29

to roll over and simply obey

10:31

Bertha. She side swipes

10:34

Bertha with a revelation.

10:36

Yes, Mrs. Winterton drops a

10:38

reference to some sort of relationship

10:41

she's had with George Russell.

10:44

She tells Bertha, he never told you about

10:46

us? Funny, I thought that's why I was

10:48

sacked because you were jealous.

10:50

Such a low blow. And then

10:52

Bertha confronts George and is extremely

10:55

upset to learn how Turner had tried to

10:57

seduce George, which we saw last season,

11:00

by climbing into his bed naked.

11:03

Nothing happened.

11:05

As soon as I knew it wasn't you, I got out of bed.

11:07

Did she? Not immediately,

11:09

so I ordered her to leave. But

11:12

you never told me. Because there was nothing

11:14

to tell. It seems to me there was a great

11:16

deal to tell. She didn't matter to me in the least.

11:18

And there was no chance anything was going to happen.

11:21

But I knew you depended on her. It didn't

11:23

make sense to blow up the house because of her stupid

11:25

mistake.

11:26

So you allowed me to be waited

11:28

on? To have my hair arranged?

11:31

My clothes chosen? My bathroom?

11:33

My woman who'd been naked in my husband?

11:35

My disgusting... I'm sorry,

11:38

it was a bad decision. Decision! I

11:40

call that betrayal!

11:47

Wow, give Carrie Coon

11:50

all the awards for that scene. You can

11:53

just see all the

11:55

emotions play on her face. You know, there's confusion,

11:58

then there's shock and... sadness

12:00

and then anger.

12:02

Raw anger. I love how raw

12:04

that anger is. It seems so believable.

12:08

And you know, this also underscores

12:10

the relationship, you know, that a lady

12:13

at the house had with her ladies made, running

12:15

the bath and doing her hair, etc. It was

12:18

so intimate, and so much trust

12:20

was required. And that trust had

12:22

been violated by her maid and

12:24

by her husband. And I think that, I

12:27

think it catches George off guard, right?

12:29

We're not used to seeing George Russell

12:32

sorry about anything. He usually

12:35

exudes confidence and control. But

12:37

here he's clearly screwed up. And

12:40

he kind of seems uncertain about what

12:42

to do next.

12:42

Yeah, I think he was realizing he should have

12:44

told Bertha what had happened immediately. I

12:47

mean, he threw Turner out as fast

12:49

as possible. But as Bertha says to

12:51

him, you are

12:52

responsible for your own inaction. Yeah,

12:55

and George doesn't know what else he can say. Alisha,

12:58

we have seen this before. Here is another

13:01

character who is asking for forgiveness.

13:03

And it's not being granted. This has

13:06

happened to Arthur, Peggy's father.

13:08

And earlier, we even saw

13:10

Bannister tell Church that he wasn't

13:12

ready to forgive him for writing that sneaky

13:14

letter to Agnes that nearly got him fired.

13:17

So there is clearly

13:19

a theme here, right about forgiveness.

13:22

Yeah, and it's going to take a little while

13:24

for Bertha

13:24

to forgive George for this. Probably

13:27

will. Although there

13:29

is an opportunity, because by the end of

13:31

the episode, Bertha reads

13:33

that the Duke of Buckingham is arriving

13:35

in two weeks on one of the Cunard ships,

13:38

the SS Servia. Now, Mrs.

13:40

Winterton had already told Bertha that

13:42

she planned to entertain the Duke when

13:45

he visited Newport. And Bertha

13:47

smells an opportunity.

13:48

Yeah, she uses George's guilt

13:50

to get him to ask his contact at

13:52

Cunard where the Duke will be staying in

13:55

New York. She's cooking up some kind of revenge

13:57

plot against Mrs. Winterton, and I am here

13:59

for it.

13:59

Yes.

14:01

But Tom, I know that Cunard

14:03

is a company that is still in operation

14:05

today with various cruises and

14:07

whatnot, but what was its importance

14:10

during the Gilded Age? Well, these were

14:12

the great days of transatlantic ocean

14:14

liners and Cunard was one

14:16

of the handful of major players along

14:19

with the White Star Line, who

14:21

would gain infamy with the sinking

14:23

of the RMS Titanic in 1912. We've

14:26

discussed how the Gilded Age elite regularly

14:29

traveled to Paris and London

14:31

and throughout Europe. Ocean

14:33

liners were their only way to cross the

14:35

Atlantic. So all of our main characters

14:37

here would have been up to speed on all

14:40

of the main ocean liner companies,

14:42

just like we are today about our airline

14:45

options. And the servian that's

14:47

mentioned here was a real liner. Cunard had

14:49

taken her into service just two

14:51

years before our show takes place in 1881.

14:54

Well, a character who is hopeful to do some

14:56

traveling segue is Peggy.

14:58

She is excited

15:00

to hear about an article T. Thomas

15:02

Fortune will be writing in Alabama

15:05

about Booker T. Washington and what

15:07

was called the Tuskegee Normal

15:09

and Industrial Institute. Now,

15:11

I don't know much about Booker T. Washington, except

15:14

that he did a lot for the education of

15:16

black people at this time.

15:17

Yes, he did. Yeah, he was an extraordinary person.

15:20

Booker had been born into slavery

15:23

in Virginia in 1856, where

15:25

he lived and was forced to work alongside

15:28

his family on a plantation as

15:30

a child. After slavery

15:32

was abolished when he was nine years old, his

15:35

family relocated to West Virginia.

15:37

And there Booker taught himself how to

15:40

read. He attended school. He made

15:42

money by working in mines. And then

15:45

at 16, he moved back to Virginia

15:47

to attend the Hampton Normal and

15:49

Agricultural Institute.

15:51

And when we say it's a normal

15:53

institute, that means it's a teaching

15:56

institution. Is that right?

15:57

That's right. Teaching teachers.

15:59

Hampton Institute dates back to just

16:02

after the Civil War in 1866. Booker T. Washington

16:06

studied here, then he attended seminary

16:08

school, and then returned to Hampton

16:10

as a teacher himself. And it was then,

16:12

in 1881, that a new school was being established

16:16

way down in the Deep South in Tuskegee, Alabama,

16:19

the Tuskegee Normal School for Colored

16:21

Teachers. Its leaders wrote

16:23

to the Hampton Institute up in Virginia

16:26

asking for a recommendation for a teacher

16:28

and principal for their new school, and

16:31

Booker T. Washington got the job.

16:32

And when was this?

16:33

He opened the school on July

16:36

4th, 1881, and first

16:38

using space that was provided by a church,

16:41

but the following year the school purchased

16:44

a 100-acre former plantation,

16:46

which was then extensively

16:48

developed and buildings were constructed by

16:51

the students themselves. So this

16:53

really was all happening at the time of our

16:56

story. It's

16:56

really impressive, and Peggy wants

16:58

to see the opening of the new dormitory herself.

17:01

She convinces T. Thomas Fortune to

17:03

take her along to Alabama. Now

17:05

he knows that this trip, A, may

17:08

cause scandal because he's married

17:10

and traveling with a single woman, and B,

17:13

that Alabama is a dangerous

17:15

place for black people to visit.

17:17

Right, and he's not the only one

17:19

worried about this. Dorothy,

17:22

Peggy's mother, is deeply

17:24

concerned as soon as Peggy tells

17:26

her about her plans to travel to Alabama.

17:29

I think she sees that Peggy has been

17:31

somewhat sheltered from all of this, because

17:34

Peggy's grown up in Brooklyn. She's never

17:36

traveled to the South. She

17:38

reminds Peggy that she's never

17:40

been South of the Mason-Dixon line.

17:43

You don't seem to understand that

17:45

once you cross that line, you are no

17:47

longer human.

17:50

So you must promise me to always stay

17:52

with your group.

17:54

Never go out alone. I can promise

17:56

that. Do not make eye contact with

17:58

any white folks.

18:00

I don't speak to them.

18:02

Even the slightest gesture or look

18:04

can be misconstrued. You're telling me to

18:06

be subservient? I'm telling you how to

18:08

stay alive. And

18:10

if it were up to me, you would not be going at all.

18:13

Well, I have to go.

18:15

I need this.

18:18

I need to show the world that there are

18:20

young, colored people really making something

18:23

of their lives. It gives me a purpose.

18:26

And if I can put my whole self into

18:28

my work, then I won't have a fair second to think

18:30

about my poor boy.

18:34

It's a very emotional scene.

18:37

And we see Peggy is obviously still

18:39

suffering and living with her loss.

18:42

And we also see a generational divide here

18:44

between mother and daughter who

18:47

have had very different experiences as black

18:49

women.

18:50

Yeah. And, you know, this is post-Civil

18:52

War. So obviously slavery had been

18:54

abolished, but there was still a lot

18:57

of racism in the South.

18:58

And in the North too. Yeah. But

19:00

especially in the South. And

19:02

it took many different forms.

19:05

But even during Reconstruction, horrible

19:08

violence and terror against blacks

19:10

was widespread in the South, committed

19:12

by individuals, by mobs,

19:15

by terrorist groups like the Ku Klux Klan.

19:18

And this included lynchings in

19:20

which blacks were killed by white mobs,

19:22

sometimes actually aided by

19:24

law enforcement. Three years ago,

19:27

the Equal Justice Initiative issued a

19:29

report that documented nearly 2,000 lynchings

19:32

of black people by white mobs that

19:34

took place during Reconstruction alone.

19:37

Another 4,500 more taking place from 1877 to 1950. Oh

19:43

gosh, it's horrific. And it's just no

19:45

wonder why Dorothy is very concerned

19:48

for her daughter. She has every right to be.

19:50

But Peggy is determined to go. Yeah.

19:53

All right. Well, just like the show, we have

19:55

to change the mood quickly because Aunt

19:58

Ada has a date.

19:59

that their proximity to the Russell House

20:02

has inspired Ada to do more hosting.

20:05

She even says as much. Jack

20:07

and Bannister, by the way, have never been so busy.

20:10

And now they are

20:12

throwing another luncheon, another party,

20:15

this time for Reverend Forte, Ada,

20:17

Agnes, Cousin Dashall, Marion,

20:20

and the Fains.

20:21

And at this luncheon, Agnes notices

20:24

how Ada is wanting to impress Reverend

20:26

Forte, who is enjoying himself. And

20:28

Agnes tries to catch Ada out

20:30

when the conversation moves to watercolor

20:32

paintings. Take a listen.

20:35

How pleasing. The showy oil

20:37

paintings of the masters normally get all

20:39

the attention.

20:40

But watercolors have a champion in me.

20:42

Oh, me too. I just love

20:45

them. Really, Ada? I'd never heard you say

20:47

that. Which watercolorist

20:49

do you especially favor? I

20:52

know you mean to catch me out, but

20:54

it happens that I admire the German painter

20:57

Adolph Mendel.

20:58

A marvelous fellow. He works

21:01

in such a range of styles. Are

21:03

they mounting a Mendel exhibition here? What

21:05

is this?

21:07

Soup.

21:08

Soup? That luncheon?

21:11

Wasn't it George IV who decreed that

21:13

no gentleman drinks soup in the middle of

21:16

the day? This is New England clam chowder.

21:18

I thought it would be a surprise. And

21:20

so it is. How did it get on my table? I

21:23

conspired with Mrs. Bower.

21:24

Why was that on, Ada? The

21:27

Reverend mentioned that he was in search

21:29

of an authentic fold of chowder here in

21:31

New York.

21:32

I believe I did.

21:34

So I set our cook to the task.

21:36

We went through quite a few receipts. I

21:39

hope you agree with her choice.

21:41

It smells delicious. Well, if

21:43

we discuss the soup any longer,

21:45

it won't be fit to drink. Quite

21:47

right, Mrs. Van Rijn.

21:52

Soup? That luncheon?

21:55

Did you ever hear of such a thing?

21:56

And to make matters worse,

21:58

it was a chowder. A New England

22:01

chowder nonetheless. I don't even have to change

22:03

my accent to say that word. Honestly,

22:06

I'm not really sure how shocking

22:08

the soup thing would have been. I was

22:10

flipping last night, Alicia, through the

22:12

Epicurean, the 1000 page

22:15

cookbook that was written in 1894

22:17

by Charles Ranhofer. Just

22:18

casually flipping through

22:20

a 1000 page book.

22:22

He was an ebook. Okay. Anyway,

22:25

Ranhofer was, he was the head

22:27

chef at Delmonica's and he included

22:29

in this book rules for dining, endless

22:32

sample menus and suggested dishes

22:35

for every type of elegant meal. And

22:37

there were several soups listed.

22:39

Yes, but for lunch?

22:41

Yes. For lunch, you suggest, among

22:43

other soupy possibilities for lunch, consomme

22:47

in cup, pea puree with croutons,

22:50

fish broth with clams, getting

22:52

hungry, something called cream of

22:54

corn, a la Herman.

22:56

Delicious. And yes, clam

22:58

chowder. And well, Oscar is definitely

23:00

not sold on the soup for lunch idea,

23:03

but Forte is happy. And by the way, I

23:05

love how Ada had an answer about her favorite

23:08

watercolorist just at the ready. Agnes

23:10

did not catch her out. But of course, Tom,

23:13

now I'm going to try and catch you out by asking

23:15

you to explain more about this painter Adolf

23:18

Menzel. What can you tell me? I mean,

23:20

I've seen a little bit of his work and it looks

23:23

very detailed almost like a photo.

23:26

Well, he painted in a range

23:27

of styles. I'm actually stealing

23:29

that from Reverend Forte. No,

23:31

he was incredibly well, well known, well regarded.

23:34

He was one of the most famous German artists

23:37

of his day, although he was also

23:39

a bit of a loner and he was socially

23:42

estranged, right from most of the outside world.

23:45

And it seems that he preferred it that way. So

23:48

yeah, I think chances are very slim

23:50

that Ada would have been able to actually meet

23:52

him.

23:53

I mean, yeah, a Reverend Forte sure

23:55

knows his stuff about Menzel. He

23:57

does. And there really does seem to

23:59

be. an attraction blooming between

24:02

Ada and Forte and Tom, we know

24:04

from the last episode that an Episcopal

24:06

priest can date and

24:09

marry. Indeed they can, unlike

24:11

Catholic priests, which Agnes, remember,

24:14

considers a blessing. But every

24:17

time that Reverend Forte and Ada

24:19

are in the same room, I mean, he's beaming,

24:22

she's swooning, right, and everybody

24:25

seems to be noticing, especially

24:27

Marianne, who just cannot seem to

24:29

contain her smile, especially as her eyes

24:31

are darting from one to the other. We

24:33

have seen this shot several times, her eyes going

24:36

back and forth. Yeah,

24:37

it's very sweet. And Marianne

24:39

does seem practically giddy at the

24:41

thought of Ada going on this date. She

24:43

accompanies Ada to the Ross Gallery

24:46

on 42nd Street. So was that

24:48

a real gallery? Do you know? I couldn't find anything

24:50

about a Ross Gallery. I had a feeling you'd

24:53

ask. So many

24:55

galleries were operating at the time in

24:57

the city, had been for decades. Groups

25:00

like the American Art Union had been holding

25:02

shows in New York since the 1840s, as

25:05

well as its competitor, the National Academy

25:07

of Design. And private galleries

25:10

abounded in the city as well. I mean,

25:12

all of the new money in New York, they needed

25:14

to buy something to put on all those

25:17

new walls. But many of these galleries

25:19

were located around 14th Street, including

25:22

the Met Museum's debut exhibit,

25:24

which was in a mansion on West 14th Street. And

25:27

there were many other galleries located around

25:30

Madison Square. Also,

25:31

it was kind of like an early art

25:33

district, like a Gilded Age art district.

25:35

Exactly.

25:38

Oh, just quickly, I want

25:40

to touch on Bill Henderson's visit from

25:43

Pittsburgh, because he's one of the

25:45

workers for George Russell's company. He's leading

25:47

the union fight for better working conditions,

25:50

better pay, more time off. And

25:53

he says that the men are working 12-hour

25:56

days, six days a week for

25:58

pittance. claims

26:00

that he is providing valuable jobs

26:02

at the going rate, it's George

26:05

that uses the term robber baron to

26:07

describe himself.

26:08

Which Henderson picks up on quickly and

26:10

George is not amused clearly. Instead

26:13

George is trying to lure

26:15

him over to management he says,

26:18

which to me signals some kind

26:20

of strategy that George is concocting.

26:23

He's clearly hoping that Henderson

26:25

might be useful you know and getting the labor

26:27

force to just give in. Yeah

26:29

I think George still believes as he says

26:31

that every man living has a price.

26:33

Another classic

26:36

George Russell line that was by

26:38

the way delivered much more naturally than

26:40

anything delivered on stage over at the Union

26:43

Square Theatre. Where many

26:45

of our favorite characters were attending

26:48

the opening night of Oscar Wilde's

26:50

play Vera or the

26:52

Nihilists. It is a big

26:55

date night

26:56

Alicia. That's right and nobody is enjoying

26:58

this play. So let's

27:01

talk about Oscar Wilde of course a very famous

27:04

Irish poet playwright wit played

27:06

here by Jordan Sebastian Waller.

27:09

Yes Wilde was only 29 at

27:11

the time of our story but

27:13

he was already famous for his witty

27:16

writing and his poetry and

27:18

even parodied in the press for

27:21

his dandy public persona. In 1882 the

27:24

year before our story he came for

27:26

a nationwide lecture tour that began

27:29

in New York City where by the

27:31

way when he arrived he allegedly told the customs

27:33

official that he had quote nothing

27:36

to declare but his genius.

27:38

That's a great line.

27:40

And his entire tour

27:43

which lasted 12 months was

27:45

followed really closely in the press

27:48

lampooning his rather affected style

27:50

and his manners but he still found

27:52

quite an audience. I mean he had sold

27:55

out lectures and so he came back

27:57

the next year in 1883 with his first

28:00

ever play, Vera or The

28:02

Nihilist.

28:03

Well all of the characters are happy to meet Oscar

28:06

Wilde himself but did not seem to

28:08

enjoy this play. And what we see

28:10

of that play seems a bit, shall we

28:13

say, over acted. Yeah it was

28:15

like a like a school play but the

28:17

audience was not into it. Now

28:19

there was a lot of bored fanning

28:21

right and lots of rolling of eyes,

28:23

lots of wisecracking between

28:25

Oscar van Rhine and Maude Beaton. Yeah

28:27

by the way Maude and Oscar van Rhine

28:30

they seem to share you know a similar

28:32

sense of humor like very caustic

28:35

humor. They clearly crack each other up, they

28:37

even had to be shushed. So did this

28:39

play really debut at

28:42

the Union Square Theatre like we see? Yes

28:44

Vera, his very first play

28:46

debuted at the Union Square Theatre which

28:49

was one of the city's main stages and

28:51

the story concerned something

28:53

about a poor Russian girl who joined some

28:56

revolutionaries so

28:58

not exactly a laugh riot. It

29:01

starred the actress Marie Prescott

29:03

and it opened on August 20th, 1883 which

29:07

then is ostensibly the night that we're seeing here.

29:09

Unfortunately it closed one week

29:12

later.

29:12

Well it was a fun scene

29:14

and we'll have to get some insider info

29:16

about recreating Oscar Wilde and that play

29:19

from our next guest because after

29:21

the break Tom we will talk to the Gilded

29:23

Age executive producer and director Michael Engler

29:26

as well as the costume designer who is

29:28

behind all of those breathtaking costumes

29:31

Kasha Velista-Mamone.

29:32

I can't wait. So stay listening

29:35

this is the official Gilded Age podcast.

29:49

Who is Miss Russell, one of your famous arreters

29:52

I suppose. How clever you are Mr

29:54

Wilde, yes one of the greatest of

29:56

her year. Well it seems we're

29:59

in a room full of young men. Which

30:01

is your cousin's Saturday? I

30:03

shouldn't admit it, but of course you're right. He

30:06

has his eye on Miss Beaton now. And

30:08

the young man with him? Don

30:11

Adams. He's an old friend of Oscar's. Yes

30:14

indeed, yes. Isn't that getting rather complicated?

30:17

I don't know what you mean. Oh, should you?

30:19

You're far too well brought up.

30:27

Far too well brought up, Oscar.

30:30

I love how Oscar Wilde just

30:32

cuts through time and space to see

30:34

what we all see today. Definitely

30:37

an invented moment in history,

30:40

but a delicious one nonetheless. Absolutely.

30:43

And we are back. This is the official

30:45

Gilded Age podcast. I'm Tom Myers

30:47

and I'm joined by Alicia Malone.

30:50

Joining us now are two of the creative

30:53

forces behind the Gilded Age. Both

30:55

of whom we spoke to last season, director

30:57

and executive producer Michael Engler, and

31:00

costume designer Kasha Veliska-Mamone.

31:02

That's right. Michael Engler has

31:05

a long association with the creator

31:07

of the Gilded Age, Julian Fellows, having

31:10

previously worked on Downton Abbey. And

31:12

it's very likely that he's also directed

31:15

an episode of your favorite TV show, having

31:17

worked on series like The West Wing

31:20

and Sex and the City. And Kasha

31:22

Veliska-Mamone gained notice

31:24

for her striking costumes throughout

31:26

the first season of the Gilded Age. And she's

31:29

also worked on many films, designing

31:31

costumes for directors such as

31:33

Steven Spielberg and Wes Anderson. Michael

31:36

Engler and Kasha Veliska-Mamone.

31:39

Lovely to talk to both of you again. How's it going to

31:41

be here?

31:43

Now, the last time we spoke to you both, it

31:45

was first season one of the show. Now

31:47

we're into season two. So, Michael,

31:49

given that all the hard work of establishing

31:52

this world and all the characters was done

31:54

in the first season, what does that mean

31:56

for you as both a director

31:58

and a producer of this show?

31:59

for season two? Well,

32:02

season one, you know, what's so

32:05

difficult and ambitious about it, I think,

32:08

is that you're introducing so many

32:10

characters. It's practically like a Russian

32:12

novel. There's so many characters

32:14

to learn. So you're learning who all

32:17

the players are, and then you're learning

32:19

the rules of the game. And

32:21

season one, our two main characters

32:24

in the opposite camps are

32:27

Marianne, Brooke, and

32:29

Bertha Russell. And so each

32:32

of them in the first season

32:34

is basically learning the rules of the

32:36

game from their side of the board,

32:39

let's say, you know, of

32:41

the story. And so you're

32:43

learning who all the players are. You're learning what

32:46

the rules are. You're learning what the

32:48

lay of the land is. And then

32:50

season two is now

32:52

all the markers are on the board, and

32:54

now the game is being played,

32:57

or really it was begun at the end

32:59

of the last season when Bertha

33:02

finally got Mrs. Aster to come

33:04

to her ball. And so

33:06

now she has officially gotten on the board

33:08

and can play the game. So now

33:11

that we've established all those characters, as

33:13

that we know how the world works, the fun of

33:15

season two is that we watch

33:18

them all playing that

33:20

game and working their

33:22

opportunities and around the obstacles

33:25

each of them has in a way that

33:27

we now know as much about the world

33:29

as they do. And so I think

33:31

the fun of that is we're no longer teaching

33:35

the audience

33:37

through teaching the characters how

33:40

the world works. We're now just in

33:42

it and learning and watching how each of them

33:44

will play their hands. How

33:46

about you, Kasha? I mean, does

33:48

a new season allow you, you know, to

33:50

sort of expand, you know, on the language of

33:52

the costumes that you established in the first season?

33:55

Just like Michael mentioned, the

33:57

first season was about learning.

34:00

the characters, learning the vocabulary

34:02

of the period, learning the

34:04

worlds that we are exploring,

34:07

and that there's always this amazing

34:10

excitement with that process of

34:12

entering the new world and learning all

34:14

the

34:14

principles. But once you

34:17

know it,

34:18

the second time around, it's just

34:21

an explosion

34:21

of ideas. Because

34:23

we

34:23

build so much on everything what

34:26

Michael just mentioned.

34:26

We rarely get that

34:28

opportunity in film.

34:30

In film, you're committed and you're done. You've never

34:33

had a chance of the correction. And

34:35

with this privilege of a second season, you

34:38

can build on your knowledge. That's why this material

34:40

was so attractive. We also have that dialogue

34:43

established and trust that

34:45

we establish with each other. And that

34:47

has been an amazing privilege, that

34:49

whole process.

34:50

Yeah, I'm curious just speaking

34:53

specifics for one second. If

34:55

any of the looks of the costumes

34:57

for any of the characters have changed

34:59

in a way that we might notice. I mean,

35:01

here we are only in episode three of season

35:04

two. But do you think that

35:06

we as an audience might be able to take note

35:08

of any changes in the

35:11

way that anybody is being dressed?

35:14

I think so, but it's very much driven by the

35:16

story. I mean, the story is the main

35:19

motor that drives those changes. And

35:21

what

35:22

comes with this also is this

35:24

further knowledge that we as a team,

35:27

because I always say this show is

35:29

built by a giant team, team of

35:31

amazing assistant designers, makers.

35:34

We

35:35

all, we had pretty

35:37

much the same team that was

35:38

in the first season. We all

35:40

grew, we all learned. So I

35:42

think what you will have a chance to see is

35:45

a story supported by

35:48

visual design

35:49

and the design

35:52

is just deeper, better,

35:54

more sophisticated, more complex.

36:00

we've already seen. In fact, the very opening

36:02

scene in season two is

36:05

all of the characters putting on their fabulous hats

36:07

to go to church and then the Easter parade

36:09

and such. I mean, just amazing.

36:12

Alicia and I were wondering what went into designing

36:16

all of those dresses and hats for all

36:18

of those characters and not to mention, you

36:20

know, all of the extras as well. Well,

36:22

I was going to say it began with

36:25

there were so many events in that

36:27

world that we are exploring. And

36:30

Easter in that period was such an important

36:32

time in New York. So we thought this

36:34

would be a wonderful way as well as stimulating

36:36

the question, oh, what would be happening

36:39

in New York where every one of our characters

36:42

on both sides of the streets

36:45

upstairs and downstairs, right? And everybody

36:48

is all doing what's

36:50

one event on the same day and then

36:52

reveal that it's Easter and

36:54

then get into all that once we've established

36:57

all the elements of the world, you

36:59

know. And so we also knew

37:02

that one of our

37:03

strong suits

37:05

is the incredible detail

37:08

and, you know, lush vividness

37:11

of the costumes and particularly the

37:13

women's hats. And we thought what a perfect

37:16

way to bring everybody back in, enjoy

37:19

the world, rediscover our

37:21

people and our settings and our relationships

37:24

before we went into that. And then as

37:26

usual, Kasia and her team

37:29

and the actors really went through what

37:32

does that mean to them on that day?

37:34

Are they, for some people, it's just

37:36

a pure social thing. For some people, it's

37:38

showing off their money or their

37:41

dress or their fashion

37:43

sense. For some people, it's

37:46

a more austere religious

37:48

kind of thing. And also

37:50

everybody's at a different place in their story.

37:52

So we wanted it to somehow express where

37:55

they were emotionally. We wanted to

37:57

be able to kind of get into it and then get

37:59

the stories going.

38:00

Kasia, for you, when you saw

38:03

that scene or you first heard about that scene,

38:05

was it daunting? Were you excited?

38:07

Yeah,

38:08

I think we all looked at

38:10

each other, our whole design team, we looked at

38:12

each other and we just started laughing because

38:15

we knew the scope of that scene

38:17

and the challenge of it, how enormous

38:20

it was and always the starting

38:22

point is

38:23

the research. So I always

38:25

dive deep, deep, deep

38:27

into the research to support the story

38:29

that we've been given and then it

38:32

was the discovery of how

38:34

big can we go and we knew that we

38:37

have a place to

38:37

go big based on this historical research

38:40

and then involve all of our phenomenal

38:42

makers

38:43

for our principles

38:45

and it was just a beautiful dance,

38:48

it was just an amazing fun process

38:51

and what is the most

38:53

amazing part that Michael

38:54

gives me so much courage of exploration

38:57

and

38:57

has so much visual support

38:59

and I must say that our visual

39:01

language is so exceptional that

39:03

we understand each other within a second, he's

39:05

got a great sense of humor when I push

39:08

it too far and we know that we need to pull

39:10

back

39:11

and there's always just this,

39:13

we have this really fun language

39:16

of discovery and support

39:18

and I feel so amazingly

39:20

supportive and then we have this incredible

39:22

team of makers

39:24

who know how to interpret

39:26

my abstract watercolor

39:28

drawings and the research and the dialogue

39:30

that we have, it's a very, very

39:33

tight dialogue that we have during the creation

39:35

of the pieces, it's like

39:37

an organic growth that

39:40

involves a lot of people, a lot of talented

39:42

people and the actors and

39:44

it's just like a wonderful

39:46

process.

39:47

Yeah, the actors, I mean Michael

39:50

as a director I know it must help to have a cast

39:52

filled with award-winning actors

39:54

and in this episode, number three,

39:57

we have this incredible scene between

39:59

birth and death.

39:59

and George, where Bertha confronts

40:02

George over his betrayal. What

40:04

do you do remember about directing

40:07

Carrie Coon and Morgan Specter in that

40:09

scene?

40:10

Well, it was definitely the

40:13

most intensely

40:15

emotional scene that the two of them

40:17

had together. You know, sometimes

40:19

I think in a way it's easier to yell at somebody

40:22

you don't care about than it is at somebody

40:24

you do care about. And I think for

40:26

him to find that he was

40:28

trying to do the right thing by

40:30

not bringing it up and

40:32

how that turned into the wrong thing,

40:35

I think it's not even just that it was a betrayal,

40:38

but it was that this woman who,

40:42

so little in a way, could

40:44

have such power over her by

40:47

having a kind of intimate knowledge that

40:49

Bertha didn't have. And so, honestly,

40:52

with actors like that, you first

40:54

go in and not say very

40:57

much and see what happens.

41:00

In the end, you know, what I've learned about

41:02

situations like that, the more

41:05

I can stage it with them

41:07

in a way that most

41:10

of the shots in the scene will

41:13

go through most of the scene, the

41:15

better it will be, because they don't

41:18

have to say, okay, with this shot, we're just going to, we

41:20

only need to pick it up from where they

41:22

get to play the whole scene all the way through.

41:25

And that is, especially when

41:27

you have great theater actors

41:29

like them, they appreciate that because

41:33

each time they do it, they're finding new things,

41:35

new subtleties in the performance. If

41:38

you set it up in a way that they can

41:40

find it by themselves and not have it

41:42

be too broken up or,

41:45

in a funny way, too much discussed,

41:48

which isn't the same as saying we don't discuss it

41:50

or get into the

41:52

details as we go. But,

41:54

I mean, I think we gave ourselves a lot of time

41:56

in the schedule to shoot that scene that

41:58

day, ended up only using

42:00

half of it.

42:02

Yeah, wow. I mean, you just watch

42:04

Carrie Coon's face in that scene and you

42:06

see all of the various emotions play

42:09

out, everything that she's thinking.

42:11

You know, what impresses both of you about

42:14

Carrie Coon and what she brings to Bertha?

42:17

Well, she brings a fearlessness to

42:19

it. She just wants to know

42:22

what that character wants and wants

42:24

to do, and she'll go for it,

42:26

you know? And so I find it more

42:30

often than not, I find

42:32

myself learning more from her about

42:35

it than I would say than she does from me. And

42:38

then I may fill in a certain

42:40

fact or piece of information that

42:42

might be historical or

42:45

an example of something that

42:47

might give her a little more detail

42:49

on something. But I

42:51

think that's my favorite part about her, is she's

42:54

just unafraid. And then

42:56

also she's so unselfconscious. She'll just

42:58

try anything and then afterwards say,

43:01

oh, that turned out kind of

43:03

big. Is that okay? And you'll say, yes. Okay,

43:05

great. Then we'll move on. She doesn't

43:08

have a strong feeling about this is how

43:10

it should go. And if it doesn't, I won't

43:13

be happy with it.

43:14

She is incredibly

43:16

funny. Like we're so looking

43:18

forward to Carrie coming for fittings

43:21

because we always have a great

43:23

time of not

43:25

only creating the image

43:27

for her, but also the experience

43:29

of that creation is

43:31

just so fun.

43:33

Because there's something about this organic

43:35

exploration.

43:35

She continuously explores

43:38

and has open

43:38

mind and embraces

43:41

the newness. And I think that that goes

43:43

so much with her character. I mean, this is a character

43:45

who morphs, who changes, who

43:48

embraces newness. Carrie could

43:50

not be a better collaborator for that.

43:52

One character who I would love to know

43:54

how she engages with on

43:57

set of course is Turner, or

43:59

the former. Turner today's

44:01

Mrs. Winterton. We were so

44:05

so excited obviously to see that she was

44:07

back on the show and

44:09

cautious she got a complete costume

44:11

overhaul. I mean she got a character overhaul

44:14

as well. We're curious you know how

44:16

her costumes

44:20

reflect her new status

44:22

in the world. What went into

44:24

you know your team creating

44:26

this new look for Turner

44:30

quote-unquote Winterton.

44:31

It was the exploration

44:33

and extraordinary joy of creating

44:36

this character for Turner and

44:37

and the thought that

44:40

I had was the conclusion

44:42

of all the elements was to create

44:45

an image that is resonating

44:48

something

44:48

extraordinary conservative

44:50

very restrained at

44:52

the same time beautifully feminine.

44:55

She's a

44:56

doctor.

44:57

At the same time she

44:59

knows the rules as we discovered in season

45:02

one she's frequently the advisor

45:06

to Bertha of what to wear how

45:08

to wear. Through her travel

45:10

she has this innate elegance

45:13

sense of elegance and sense of good taste

45:15

that

45:16

she gets to manifest. So I

45:18

think that her image is so deeply

45:20

motivated by her previous journeys and

45:23

her natural

45:23

sense of

45:26

what is valid in the

45:28

image making that that

45:30

was a just fun discovery

45:33

of how to blend this knowledge

45:36

of conservative choices femininity

45:39

and creating an image that is very different

45:42

than everybody else in our

45:44

story.

45:45

So I love

45:47

how she turned out actually. I

45:49

think it's going to be a really enjoyable

45:52

enjoyable journey with

45:55

Turner. And Michael it seems

45:57

like Nathan is also really having

45:59

a very

45:59

fun time playing Ward. I mean,

46:02

for the audience, I laughed out loud during the scene

46:04

in this episode where he's sneaking across

46:07

the street, you know, and he's going directly from Bertha's

46:10

fundraiser over

46:12

to Agnes' Academy of Music tea

46:14

with Mrs. Astor, and he's sort of dodging, you

46:16

know, at one point, I think, a horse and carriage. He's

46:19

very physically funny, isn't he?

46:22

You know, I love always reminding

46:24

the audience that these two

46:26

worlds are literally across the street

46:28

from each other. And I thought there was something

46:31

so funny about the fact that

46:33

literally he's playing two sides of the street

46:37

in the same moment. And so

46:39

we thought there was something bold

46:42

and humiliating and

46:45

ridiculous about it. The

46:48

beauty of so much of what Julian

46:50

creates is in these incredibly

46:53

detailed, nuanced,

46:55

witty scenes between people,

46:57

you know, in rooms, in drawing

47:00

rooms, at dining tables. And that the

47:02

actual rough and tumble of the world

47:04

of New York in that period is

47:06

nice to have a constant backdrop

47:09

to it all.

47:10

Well, I also liked, in

47:12

this episode, we get to see more of Mrs.

47:14

Blaine and her costumes.

47:17

I mean, her dresses are just beautiful.

47:19

There's one which has very intricate

47:21

designs, the neckline, just

47:23

gorgeous to watch. And in contrast

47:26

to a character like Turner, if he was trying

47:28

to be more conservative, there is a

47:30

sexiness about Mrs. Blaine. So

47:32

can you talk about this character and

47:35

what you wanted her clothes to reflect

47:37

about her? From Blaine,

47:40

I think that it was the idea of the design

47:42

was to create beauty, find

47:45

that line of sexiness and

47:47

respect. I was very much

47:49

interested

47:50

in creating the sexiness within dignity

47:53

of that character

47:55

and the unusual circumstances

47:58

that the script provided for it.

47:59

So

48:01

I think that it was very much about finding this

48:03

beauty of the shape and

48:06

opening. I mean, small opening goes

48:08

very far in that period. In

48:10

a day dress, an opening

48:13

means a lot. Compared to

48:15

Turner, who was always this high neck,

48:18

created this image of high neck and

48:20

conservative attire, nevertheless, still

48:23

very feminine.

48:24

For Blaine, opening up

48:26

in that shape was

48:28

a demonstration of seductiveness. Yeah,

48:30

exactly.

48:31

I wanted to say one thing about

48:34

Mrs. Blaine, too, because I think

48:36

part of the story we were telling, you

48:39

know, it's interesting, in this season, we're

48:42

only on episode three, but we know that

48:44

Larry is having this relationship

48:47

with this older woman, and

48:49

Marion is having a relationship with an

48:51

older man, and how

48:54

completely differently those are viewed

48:56

in that society. And that

48:58

it's absolutely appropriate for Marion,

49:01

and it seems completely scandalous

49:04

for Larry. And so the idea of

49:06

this woman who isn't found

49:08

in some ways by a lot of the rules,

49:11

because now she's independent, she's a widow,

49:14

she can live her life as she wants.

49:16

I mean, there will be some consequences, but

49:19

somehow her fully

49:21

expressing her sexuality,

49:25

it

49:25

steps over the line. And the double standard.

49:28

Exactly. Which is the double standard. While

49:31

you were talking about them, I was thinking of one place

49:33

we saw them all together in this episode

49:36

was at the theater, the amazing theater

49:38

scene. We haven't even gotten to that yet.

49:41

The Oscar Wilde night premiere.

49:44

I'm wondering about a number of things from what

49:47

it's like to create a look and a costume

49:50

and dress for a historical figure

49:53

like Oscar Wilde. Did you know what he looked like? But

49:55

also just how many people were

49:58

in those shots? You had a whole.

49:59

audience, you had actors and then

50:02

you had the reception afterwards. Does

50:04

it seem like that just have hundreds of costumes?

50:07

One of the benefits of season two is that

50:10

we now have a lot of stock. And

50:12

so when you have a huge scene

50:14

like that, you don't have to make every

50:16

single thing from scratch like we did

50:19

the first season. I think what

50:21

they do so brilliantly is focus on

50:24

our main characters and then enough

50:27

people who we can put around our main

50:29

characters near to them that

50:32

we're seeing a lot of new things and beautiful

50:34

things that relate to that situation. And

50:37

the further away from our

50:39

characters and the wider the shots are

50:42

things that we may have used before and slightly

50:44

changed or you know

50:47

like that. Now some of that is also visual

50:49

effects. I think we have 200

50:52

extras that day. It's something like that. Still

50:54

a lot. It is a lot. It's a lot.

50:57

But then we move them around the theater for

50:59

the few wide shots where we make it look

51:01

full and you know and all of that.

51:04

And then there's the whole research of just what

51:06

that production would have been like.

51:09

The set, the costumes

51:11

for the set, the acting style.

51:14

We wrote lots of reviews. There's a fantastic,

51:17

absolutely historically written New York

51:19

Times review of how terrible that

51:22

play was and that production.

51:24

And so we read those things and we thought well what

51:26

does that mean? How would we

51:29

see it versus how did they see it given

51:31

what the style of the time was, what we

51:33

know about it. And so all

51:36

of those things kind of came together

51:38

to give shape to what that whole evening

51:41

would be like including the play within

51:43

the play.

51:44

Yeah. Kasia, when

51:46

you are dressing a character that is based

51:48

on a real person and you said you have a lot

51:50

of documentation of what he looks like,

51:53

is it about trying to make it exact

51:55

or still doing an interpretation of

51:57

that character? It is always.

51:59

interpretation because we have a different

52:02

actor, different body and a different story

52:04

setting. But it's the research

52:07

is definitely the crucial

52:09

part of it because you have to evoke the essence

52:12

of that character. So taking elements

52:14

that evoke that character and that

52:17

sometimes is difficult to describe what exactly

52:19

it is to evoke this essence because

52:21

you translate so

52:22

much that our actor was quite

52:24

different than Oscar Wilde himself.

52:27

But I feel that finding those details

52:29

of what Oscar Wilde was wearing at that

52:31

time and the particular details

52:35

of some elements but it always

52:37

becomes this combination of translation

52:39

of figuring out a new language but nevertheless

52:42

I always say if it's soaked in reality

52:45

it resonates reality

52:47

and then you have the spirit

52:48

of that character.

52:50

Well then in addition to the audience scene

52:53

you know in this episode we also have

52:55

all the actors up at the Newport

52:57

Casino. So would those

52:59

stock costumes have actually worked in both

53:02

scenes?

53:03

Newport Day is

53:04

very much designed for

53:07

the summer, hot

53:09

summer days

53:11

in a seaside.

53:13

So it's a lot of very lightweight

53:16

cottons, gauzes, linens

53:20

that would be bright like light

53:22

bulbs in the scene like a theater. So

53:24

the Newport stocks are very separate. We

53:26

kept them

53:26

on especially for season one to create

53:29

this

53:30

image of New York versus

53:32

Newport which was very much driven by

53:34

the paintings like me and Michael we

53:36

looked through endless amount of paintings

53:39

and the impression that those paintings

53:41

created and that there was already that transformation

53:44

of what do you do with a period. You

53:46

do what the painters did. They created

53:48

reality that was already a

53:51

step away from the reality

53:53

itself. They beautified

53:56

things. and

54:00

looks. One more character

54:02

who seems to be going through some kind

54:04

of a transformation herself in this episode

54:07

is Aunt Ada, and it's

54:09

a really lovely moment at the end of this episode

54:12

when they meet up at the watercolor exhibit and

54:14

we see her in this beautiful peacock

54:17

blue dress with floral accents. Tasha,

54:19

can you tell us about this dress and how

54:22

it might sort of reflect, you know,

54:24

this moment of transformation for Ada?

54:26

What was beautiful

54:28

about this story of

54:30

Ada in the second season?

54:33

We

54:33

discovered a romantic side

54:36

of Ada. That side that

54:38

we didn't see, we saw her as a charity

54:41

servant, as a spinster,

54:43

a woman who stepped back from that

54:45

romantic involvement in her

54:47

life. It was a discovery of femininity

54:51

still within the character of Ada. How

54:53

do you build on that image and just bring

54:55

the femininity to

54:57

her costumes? And it was just

55:00

this beautiful collaboration with Michael,

55:03

Julian,

55:03

and with Cynthia who opened

55:05

that vocabulary and I think that that

55:08

focus was

55:09

how do we bring this romanticism

55:12

appropriate for her age and for her character.

55:14

I mean she's a very mature woman

55:16

in a very interesting

55:18

moment of her life when she discovers romance and

55:21

as the story

55:21

builds up it's also

55:24

I strategize

55:24

very carefully the color

55:26

play

55:27

of for her character within the

55:29

story and I think it's built up as this

55:32

puzzle of emotional journey

55:35

within the romance.

55:36

There's so much being communicated visually

55:39

in this show with the costumes and the sets

55:42

and then there's the wonderful dialogue on top of that.

55:45

So Michael, as a director

55:47

do you have to then allow

55:50

the dialogue and the costumes and the sets

55:52

to shine and sort of hold back on adding

55:54

your own visual flourishes

55:57

and cinematic

55:58

camera moves? Absolutely.

55:59

the costumes and the setting,

56:02

you know,

56:04

tell a big part of the story. And

56:06

so there are a lot of times

56:09

where we would just say,

56:12

and a lot of it comes into the editing,

56:14

where we say, you know,

56:16

there

56:17

are times when you want to be on the close-up of

56:19

somebody because what they're going through is complexly

56:23

conveyed on their face. A

56:26

lot of times we say, no, no, let's keep it wide,

56:29

because what we're learning about

56:31

is how the whole world is functioning.

56:34

There are times when we

56:36

are absolutely simple and

56:39

straightforward and very

56:41

conservative in our approach to

56:44

the filmmaking aspects of it, because it

56:46

is really only about the acting. And

56:49

then there are times when we let other things

56:52

come to life.

56:55

Well, Michael Engler and

56:57

Kasia Velips-Kamamon, thank you

56:59

so much for creating that world and letting us

57:01

in. And we really appreciate your time today. Thanks

57:04

so much, it's been a pleasure as always. I

57:12

think I could listen to Kasia talk about costumes

57:14

all day. I love what you said about Turner

57:16

and how she would have had a knowledge of fashion

57:18

being a lady's maid. Yeah, and how

57:21

she also designed costumes for characters

57:23

based on their sort of internal palette.

57:26

And just amazing, almost as amazing as Michael

57:28

moving 200 extras around

57:30

a theater to make it seem full. Amazing!

57:33

Well, that brings us to the end of this

57:35

episode of the official Gilded Age podcast.

57:37

But we'll be back with more of the history

57:39

behind the fiction and more interviews

57:42

next week. Yes, and don't forget that you

57:44

can catch the new episodes of the HBO

57:46

original series, The Gilded Age Sundays

57:48

on Macs, and then listen to

57:51

our podcast, also available on Macs,

57:53

or wherever you get your podcast. So we'll

57:55

chat to you then.

57:56

Bye-bye.

58:07

This has been the official Gilded Age podcast,

58:10

written, hosted and produced by

58:12

Alicia Malone and me, Tom Myers.

58:14

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58:17

Pemberton Fowler. Our editor

58:19

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58:21

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58:23

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58:26

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58:29

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58:57

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