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1:06

I know it's silly, but

1:08

I feel rather nervous. I

1:10

mean, you're an independent

1:12

married woman, fully the equal of Mrs.

1:15

Van Lee. Of

1:17

course, but I'm

1:19

not sure Agnes will quite see that. Welcome

1:24

back to the official Gilded Age

1:27

podcast. I'm Alicia Malone from Turner

1:29

Classic Movies and we're about to dig

1:31

into episode six of season two.

1:34

And by we, I mean

1:36

myself and my co-host Tom Myers.

1:38

Hello. Hello. Hi, Alicia. And hello,

1:40

everybody. Yes, I am Tom Myers

1:42

from the Bowery Boys podcast. Happy

1:45

to be back with you all and ready to

1:47

dig. Now, in

1:49

the last episode, we swooned as

1:51

we attended Ada's wedding. We held

1:54

our breath as Bertha's big dinner

1:56

with the Duke was nearly sabotaged

1:59

and we were scared for the sun. safety

2:01

of Peggy and T. Tom Swarton in Alabama.

2:04

This week Alicia, our focus is

2:06

on labor and union as

2:08

the workers fight for their

2:10

rights against robber barons like George

2:12

Royce. So much happens

2:14

in this episode and we'll be talking

2:16

about it all with executive producer David

2:19

Crockett and we'll hear stories

2:21

about how the impressive ensemble of

2:23

actors were cast in the Gilded

2:25

Age from veteran casting directors Bernie

2:27

Telsey and Adam Caldwell. There

2:30

never was so much wealth created, accumulated,

2:32

made in such a short period of

2:34

time in the entire world history than

2:36

it was in America during that time.

2:39

You got these grand fall rooms and

2:41

these parties and this elite society but

2:43

it came from somewhere and there were

2:45

there were prices to be paid societally

2:47

and otherwise. So let's get digging.

2:50

This is season two, episode

2:52

six, Warning Shops. Written

2:55

by Julian Fellows and directed by

2:57

Crystal Roberson. The

3:05

episode starts in Pittsburgh where Bill

3:07

Henderson is leading a rally of

3:09

laborers. They are ready to strike

3:12

fighting for fairer working hours and

3:14

better conditions. Their rally

3:16

cry is eight eight eight which

3:19

means Tom eight hours for work,

3:21

eight hours for rest and eight

3:23

hours for what you will. Yes,

3:26

they're actually quoting a popular song

3:28

of the time called Eight Hours which

3:30

was written in 1878

3:33

by I.G. Blanchard with music by the

3:35

Reverend Jesse Jones. It sounds

3:37

kind of religious like an anthem. Yeah,

3:39

it was an actual song about achieving

3:42

what we might call today

3:44

a better work-life balance. It

3:47

had lyrics like, we want to

3:49

feel the sunshine and we want to

3:51

smell the flowers. We are sure that

3:54

God has willed us and we mean

3:56

to have eight hours. We're summoning our

3:58

forces from the shipyard. shop and

4:00

mill. Eight hours for work, eight

4:03

hours for rest, eight hours for

4:05

what we will. And

4:08

as Clay mentions in this episode, it's

4:11

the what we will

4:13

part that business owners particularly

4:15

objected to. So this

4:17

was a song and then it

4:19

became a chant. Yeah. And

4:21

by the 1880s, the motto eight hours

4:23

for work, eight hours for rest, eight

4:25

hours for what we will, had

4:28

been adopted by the largest labor organization

4:30

of the time, the Knights of

4:32

Labor. I remember the Knights

4:34

of Labor because we talked about them

4:37

in another episode. Yeah. And they became

4:39

really powerful in the 1880s. By 1886, in fact, a few years

4:41

after our

4:44

show takes place, they had 700,000 members.

4:48

Wow, that is huge. And here we

4:50

see George and Clay head off on

4:52

their train to Pittsburgh to talk to

4:55

Bill Henderson about the impending strike. And

4:57

we hear Clay say that he's spoken

4:59

to the governor who will send the

5:01

National Guard. So Tom, was

5:04

this unusual for the time to

5:06

have the government and the National

5:08

Guard involved in labor strikes? Not

5:10

at all. You know, more and more workers

5:12

went on strike during the Gilded Age. And

5:14

by the way, there were a lot of

5:17

reasons to strike during the Gilded Age. Police

5:19

forces, state militias, National

5:22

Guards, they'd all be frequently called

5:24

in ostensibly to keep the peace.

5:27

So it's natural that Clay and George

5:30

would assume that the troops would be

5:32

on their side. Absolutely. By the

5:34

way, stepping back here, I am just, I'm really

5:36

excited that the show went here,

5:38

you know, because this is not glamorous stuff.

5:41

And I think that that is the point,

5:43

right? The Gilded Age, the

5:45

era was exciting in some

5:47

ways, but it was also dirty. Messy

5:51

and workers were exploited,

5:53

you know, and for many working conditions

5:55

were dangerous and their working days were

5:58

very long, like 12. and

6:00

14 hours. And these

6:02

were the same workers whose physical labor

6:04

was producing these incredible fortunes that we

6:06

see back in New York. It's

6:09

interesting to watch how George operates in the

6:11

middle of all this. You know, when George

6:13

and Clay arrive in a carriage at the

6:16

house of Bill Henderson, I liked

6:18

how he made Clay essentially wait

6:20

in the car. He just puts

6:22

him firmly back in his place.

6:25

Yeah, George is going to handle this conversation with

6:27

Henderson on his own. I

6:29

mean, which given how warm and fuzzy

6:31

Clay makes me feel, it's probably for the

6:34

best. Yeah. And we

6:36

also get to see George outside

6:38

of his usual settings. You know,

6:40

Bill Henderson's house is far removed

6:42

from his big mansions, his impressive

6:45

offices, and the low camera

6:47

angle used in the scene really underscores

6:49

how claustrophobic and cramped it is for

6:51

Henderson. You know, you feel the ceiling

6:54

closing in. Yes, and it was dark

6:56

in there. And his family was larger

6:58

than George's. I mean, there was a

7:00

table full of kids sitting there crowded

7:02

into that tiny space. You have to

7:05

also imagine that George must respect Henderson

7:07

at least a little for the way

7:09

that he stands up for what

7:11

he believes in. You know, as George mentions,

7:13

they both would claim they try

7:15

to do their best. Yeah, I think

7:18

it's notable in the scene how they

7:20

both lead very different lives, right? And

7:22

yet they're so similar. You know, they're

7:24

both very strong willed people. They're both

7:26

really good at what they do. And

7:28

as we see, they're both willing to

7:30

fight for that. Absolutely. And George

7:33

seems to be affected by meeting the

7:35

Henderson family as he gets up to

7:37

leave, he says goodbye to Mrs. Henderson

7:39

and then learns that their son is

7:41

also working at his mall. Because

7:43

there were no other opportunities in the town.

7:46

You know, like so many industrial towns

7:48

at the time, these were

7:50

factory towns, everything depended on the

7:52

factory. And George steps outside, he

7:55

has a kind of tense handshake

7:57

with Henderson who can't even look him in the eyes. And

8:00

George approaches his carriage, walking into this

8:02

crowd of townspeople who barely part to

8:04

let him get through. I mean, I

8:07

didn't even know if they were going

8:09

to let him get through. It's

8:11

very unsettling for George, who discusses

8:13

with Clay back in the carriage.

8:21

Take them out today. More

8:23

soon. He has

8:25

nothing to gain. I'm giving us more time today. I'm

8:28

capable to govern and make sure about you,

8:30

Wargos. His

8:33

wife was there. His

8:35

children. Surprised they were not

8:37

at school. Is

8:41

there a school? I

8:43

know they're low, not care. Ugh.

8:47

Clay is really giving me evil henchman

8:49

who wants to take over the world

8:51

for himself kind of vibes. He

8:53

smells blood and he likes it. I think

8:56

he actually smirked. Didn't he? Didn't he

8:58

smile when he said neither, no, nor

9:00

care? I mean, that was

9:02

evil. So evil. And the

9:05

next time we return to Pittsburgh, the

9:07

workers have barricaded the gates. So the

9:09

so-called scabs cannot enter the mills. The

9:11

National Guard is there and shots are

9:13

fired. Yeah, these are warning shots

9:15

fired by the troops. And George demands

9:17

to be taken to the commanding officer.

9:20

And when he arrives outside, he sees

9:22

a very tense standoff between the National

9:25

Guard and the workers. So these

9:27

troops are very ready to fire their guns. So

9:30

do we know if this particular scene

9:32

was based on an actual strike? Well,

9:34

this situation immediately made me think

9:36

of the Homestead Strike of 1892,

9:41

in which the Amalgamated Association of

9:43

Iron and Steel Workers went

9:46

on strike against Carnegie Steel. Now,

9:49

when the workers walked off the job,

9:51

the company attempted to bring in hundreds

9:54

of pinker tanks. To help reopen the

9:56

plant with non-union labor. But

10:01

unlike in today's episode, the

10:04

Homestead Strike turned violent as

10:06

the strikers and

10:08

actually much of the town battled with

10:11

these Pinkerton agents. And

10:13

in the end, several agents and

10:15

several strikers were killed and dozens

10:17

more were hospitalized, you know, in

10:19

all of the fighting. And

10:21

the governor even called in a state militia force

10:23

of more than 6,000 men to restore order and

10:26

to reopen

10:28

the plan. Well, yeah, I mean, I'm

10:30

just looking online and I see the Homestead

10:33

Strike referred to as the Homestead

10:35

Riot or even the Homestead Massacre,

10:37

which I guess really speaks to

10:40

how violent it got. And

10:42

it got bad, yeah. Unlike

10:44

with the Homestead Strike when Andrew

10:46

Carnegie was actually off visiting Scotland

10:48

at the time, George

10:51

Russell was right there calling

10:53

the shots, you know, or rather calling

10:55

for the guards not to shoot. So

10:58

you say Carnegie wasn't even there,

11:00

but so who was, you know,

11:02

calling the shots in that strike?

11:05

That, Alicia, is something that I have

11:07

been waiting to tell you. I've been

11:09

kind of excited about this. Andrew Carnegie

11:11

left control of his company at the

11:13

time of the strike to Henry Clay

11:15

Frick, the industrialist and

11:17

Robert Barron, whose name, of

11:20

course, today lives on in his art museum

11:22

in New York, the Frick Collection. But

11:25

Frick the man was ruthlessly

11:27

anti-union. He hated them. And

11:30

leading up to the strike, when the Homestead

11:32

Union had asked for a raise, tried to

11:35

negotiate, he countered with an

11:37

offer to cut their wages by 22%. And

11:41

you just said Henry Clay

11:43

Frick. So are you referring

11:45

to our clay? That's

11:47

it. Yes, clay. Our

11:49

clay here in the show reminds

11:52

me very much of Henry Clay

11:54

Frick. So do you think that

11:56

this character of Clay could actually have been based

11:59

on Frick? I mean, it

12:01

seems implausible now, you know, that he wouldn't

12:03

have been based on him. That

12:05

would be some crazy coincidence. We'll

12:08

have to ask executive producer David Crockett about

12:10

this when we speak to him shortly. Yeah,

12:12

we'll have to do that. And, you know,

12:14

luckily this strike did not end in bloodshed.

12:16

If it were in Clay's hands, it probably

12:18

would have. And you see

12:21

here the tension between George

12:23

the businessman and George the family man,

12:25

because in the end he just can't

12:27

stand to see all of these men

12:29

who have families die. Yeah. And

12:31

the episode ends there, right? George is

12:34

complicated. George is conflicted. And

12:37

Clay is disgusted at George for caving

12:39

in. And do you think of George

12:41

as being a hero here or or

12:44

does he maybe have another plan up

12:46

his sleeve? Because the way the episode

12:48

ends, George gives a look to Henderson

12:50

that I read as, all right,

12:52

you've won this round, but just you wait.

12:56

I don't know. I so want to think

12:58

that George is a nice guy at heart.

13:01

Yeah. Right. But then

13:03

I remember that the actual Gilded Age robber

13:05

barons were not really nice guys. And

13:08

we have also seen George be not

13:10

nice at all several times. That's

13:13

right. I mean, he definitely has

13:15

a shadow side. Well,

13:17

back to the other big battle now,

13:19

you know, not quite as deadly, but

13:22

definitely dirty. The opera

13:24

wall. I'm referring to Mrs. Winterton

13:26

has offered to bring to the

13:28

Met some old money families from

13:30

the Academy who both wanted but

13:32

couldn't get. And she mentions the

13:35

Wilsons, the Marshalls and the Web.

13:37

Ah, yes. Remember the Wilsons, the

13:40

marrying Wilsons, including the son who

13:42

married Carrie Astor. I

13:45

don't know the Marshalls, but as for the

13:47

Web, this is probably

13:49

a reference to William Seward Web,

13:51

who had built a railroad fortune

13:53

and had married Eliza Vanderbilt, the

13:56

daughter of William H. Vanderbilt. Oh,

13:59

and as people might. remember William H.

14:01

Vanderbilt was one of the organizers of

14:03

the Met. Yes, indeed, along with

14:05

his son, William K.

14:07

William Kissen Vanderbilt, who was

14:09

married to Alva. So I

14:12

think that the show is kind of playing with

14:14

us here. The Web didn't need Mrs.

14:16

Winterton to bring them over to the

14:18

Met. They were already on the side

14:20

of the Met. Mrs. Web's dad helped

14:22

plan it. And in

14:25

fact, the New York Tribune published

14:27

an article on the opening day

14:29

of the Opera House that listed

14:31

the Web's as planning to sit

14:33

inside William H. Vanderbilt's box. So

14:36

I just don't think that

14:38

Turner could take credit for that. I'm sorry,

14:40

did I just take us off on a Gilded

14:42

Age tangent there, Alicia? He did,

14:44

but I liked it. And

14:47

how about Mr. Gilbert agreeing to

14:49

give away birth as box to

14:51

Mrs. Winterton? Yeah, which is obviously

14:53

the big drama here. Although Gilbert is

14:55

completely oblivious to the cat fight that

14:57

he's just walked into. That's

15:00

right. He's smiling away. He's completely

15:02

unaware at what awaits him as

15:05

he lights George Russell's train

15:07

for a chat. He's perfectly happy and

15:09

actually kind of proud as he tells

15:12

George how the Wintersons have joined the

15:14

Met and Bertha has, air quotes, stepped

15:16

aside to give them her box. Which

15:20

lets us see George Russell in action

15:22

again. George quickly gets serious and straight

15:24

to the point, reminding Gilbert that he

15:26

wrote the check to restart the construction

15:29

work and that if Bertha doesn't get

15:31

her box back, Mr. Gilbert

15:33

will have to repay the amount in full.

15:36

Well, I mean, it's good that George is fixing

15:38

all of these problems for Bertha, but I'm

15:41

just not sure that he has learned his

15:43

lesson about the dangers of concealing the truth

15:46

from his wife. True.

15:48

Although I kind of think that

15:50

Bertha would be really into these

15:52

dirty details. Don't you? Yeah,

15:54

I think so. And unfortunately,

15:57

of course, for Gilbert, this

15:59

awkward conversation George has lasted

16:01

a bit longer than anticipated and

16:03

the train has literally left the

16:05

station and Mr Gilbert

16:07

is stuck riding along with George and Clay.

16:10

It was a really dirty

16:12

trick. I mean I

16:14

love the look that actor Jeremy

16:16

Seamus gives as Mr Gilbert when

16:18

he realizes that the train is

16:20

moving. He's like, oh wait

16:23

what? Huh? Anyway Clay tells

16:25

Mr Gilbert that he can ride with

16:27

them to Middleton and get off there

16:29

and from my very quick Googling efforts

16:31

it doesn't seem like Middleton was a

16:34

real place. Well, Middletown is

16:36

a city in New York State. It's about 75 miles north of

16:39

the city and it was an

16:41

important stop on the Erie Railroad

16:44

which had been owned by Jay

16:46

Gould. So perhaps that's

16:48

the reference but I do like how

16:51

dismissive Clay was you know about the

16:53

way that they've just really inconvenienced Gilbert.

16:55

I mean he kind of acts like

16:57

Gilbert just missed a subway stop. I

16:59

know. You could walk back. Poor

17:01

Mr Gilbert. Well here's a

17:04

switch from Water Romance. Ada

17:06

and Luke Forte are back in New

17:09

York after their honeymoon in Niagara Falls

17:11

which is not only close to New

17:13

York but was also as I read

17:16

it used to be

17:18

a popular honeymoon destination. Oh yeah

17:21

like the biggest North American destination

17:23

for newlyweds. It's a tradition actually

17:25

that goes all the way back

17:27

to Theodosia Burr, Aaron Burr's daughter,

17:29

who visited the falls in 1801

17:31

after marrying

17:34

Joseph Elston. And so then by the

17:36

Gilded Age here you know about 75

17:38

years later trains

17:40

from the city made that romantic

17:43

trip easily accessible to everybody even

17:45

to Aunt Ada. Yeah and of

17:47

course when I see Niagara Falls I immediately think

17:49

of Marilyn Monroe in Niagara. Of

17:52

course you do. That's your job. Yeah but

17:54

Ada and Luke go to visit Agnes

17:56

back on 61st Street. Ada is nervous

17:58

but I thought it was interesting

18:00

how Luke reminded her that as

18:02

an independent married woman she is

18:04

now fully the equal to Mrs.

18:06

Van Ryan. I mean firstly independent married

18:08

woman seems a bit like an oxymoron

18:11

for a woman in the 1880s

18:13

but tell us how Ada's

18:15

social position would have changed as a

18:17

married woman. Well for one she was

18:19

now the wife of the rector of St.

18:21

Thomas Church right that was something and

18:24

she also still had the cache

18:26

of the Brook family name. After

18:28

all as Agnes has pointed out

18:31

early on were related to the Livingstans.

18:34

And so would that have made her equal

18:36

to Agnes by society's standards you know even though

18:38

she didn't have her wealth? Well

18:40

she wouldn't have the Van Ryan

18:43

name or the money hovering over

18:45

her but she'd also be stepping

18:47

out of Agnes's shadow. Agnes

18:49

provided for Ada with her late

18:52

husband's fortune so she had

18:54

a kind of power over her as we can clearly

18:56

see on the show and that would

18:58

end. Maybe Ada wouldn't

19:00

be living as lavishly but

19:02

I don't think that'll bother her. I mean

19:05

it still seems like she's going to have

19:07

a pretty comfortable life. Yeah and

19:09

I can't imagine Ada changing at all

19:11

but I will be curious to see

19:13

if Agnes treats her with any more

19:15

respect now that she is married. Well

19:18

the tea is not going smoothly.

19:21

Agnes seems like she's annoyed by everything

19:23

including the way that Ada and Luke

19:26

are holding hands while sitting several feet

19:28

apart from each other. But

19:30

then Luke gets up to grab more coffee

19:33

for Ada and his back goes out. Oh

19:36

my gosh I knew as soon

19:38

as I saw him wince in pain that

19:40

this would be bad. It's kind of like

19:42

that idea of the check off scum they

19:45

talk about with writing that if you introduce

19:47

a gun into the story it has to

19:49

go off at some point. I

19:51

just had a feeling that that back

19:53

wasn't just from carrying Ada across the

19:56

threshold. Yeah it's been

19:58

introduced in Stormclouds. seem to

20:00

be gathering. And Luke finally sees

20:02

a doctor. Ada is very concerned to hear

20:04

that the doctor is looking into some things.

20:07

But then Tom, there's that really sweet

20:09

moment when Ada and Luke dance to

20:11

their music box and Little Pumpkin is

20:13

watching. So sweet, yes, the music box

20:15

that has been hand cranked by the

20:17

maid in the other room, playing

20:20

the lilting melody of the Blue Danube

20:22

Waltz, composed by Johann Strauss II, which

20:26

premiered in Vienna in the 1860s and

20:29

became a global musical sensation

20:31

of the time. And it's

20:34

interesting because we consider it

20:36

to be classical music to us or great

20:38

waltz of the 19th century. But at the

20:40

time of the show, it was

20:42

only about 15 years old. And

20:46

this scene feels particularly bittersweet

20:48

because later in the episode,

20:50

and oh, this is so sad, Luke

20:53

asks Marion to come over so she

20:55

can be with Ada as he tells

20:57

her his news, news which

20:59

Marion then relays to Agnes, Oscar,

21:01

Peggy, and Aurora when she gets

21:03

back to 61st Street. He

21:07

has cancer. But

21:11

how can that be? He was here the other

21:13

day. The only thing wrong with him was a bad

21:15

back. This one starts with a bad

21:17

back and then it spreads. He's

21:21

seen two doctors. I

21:24

must look after Ada. Marion

21:26

please ask Bannister to fetch me a cab

21:28

and have Armstrong come and get me ready

21:30

to go out. Or

21:33

on data, she doesn't have much luck. Oh,

21:39

that line from Oscar just crushed me.

21:41

It's such a sad twist, even if

21:43

we felt it coming. It

21:46

is heartening to see how Agnes

21:48

immediately springs into action. You know, she's

21:51

ready to race to her sister's side. Yeah,

21:54

I just felt such a lump in my

21:56

throat when Ada sees Agnes

21:58

and just burst. into tears. I

22:01

know and Agnes comforts her with, you

22:03

know, I'm here, I'm here, which is

22:07

reassuring and it feels so

22:09

real and at the

22:11

same time it also seems so

22:13

unfair. You know, it's

22:16

like Ada's little moment of freedom that

22:18

we've just been talking about is coming to

22:20

a screeching halt, right? She's going to be

22:22

right back where she started. Exactly,

22:25

I am so sad and just, you

22:27

know, a teensy bit angry that Ada

22:29

wasn't able to have just a bit

22:31

more happiness before this tragedy struck.

22:34

But anyway, we have to move on

22:36

to Oscar van Rijen and his budding

22:38

relationship with Maud Beaton because last

22:41

episode we saw him invest some of his

22:43

money into a business deal that Maud has

22:45

been involved in and this week he returns

22:47

to meet up with Mr. Crowther who gives

22:50

him a check and Tom, he's already made

22:52

money but the other investors don't want

22:54

him. Yeah, in fact, they want to buy him

22:56

out like now

22:59

and they try to do just that with

23:01

a check that is waved about and then

23:03

hand it over to him and it

23:06

must have been quite a return on investment.

23:08

Yeah, I'm dying to know how much was

23:10

on that check because Oscar is a wealthy

23:13

man but even his eyebrows raised when he

23:15

saw him out. Nobody

23:18

can raise his eyebrows like

23:20

Oscar. Yeah. Kudos to Blake

23:22

Ritzen who plays Oscar for

23:24

always keeping us guessing. But

23:27

sitting there in Crowther's office, he

23:29

thinks it over, reflects

23:31

upon Maud and then

23:33

rips up the check with perfect

23:35

check ripping sound effects by the

23:37

way. He wants to stay

23:39

in and in fact he

23:41

returns later to the office with

23:44

another check to Mr. Crowther to

23:46

invest even more even though Crowther

23:48

is uncomfortable with this level of

23:50

investment, Oscar doubles down. Yeah, and

23:53

the question that I have is whether

23:55

Oscar is actually trying to help Maud

23:58

or just himself. I mean, Mr.

24:00

Crowther seems worried about him using

24:02

Maud. Well, he's not alone, right?

24:05

Other characters have also expressed worry

24:07

about Oscar using Maud Both

24:09

Charles and Aurora Fain seem worried

24:12

and and Aurora is the one who set him up But

24:15

Oscar says that he intends to make her

24:17

happy He also seems to

24:19

enjoy dropping the name of her quote-unquote

24:21

father Jay Gould as often as he

24:24

can Um, I so I

24:26

think he's drawn by various aspects

24:28

of Maud Beaton He does seem

24:30

to really like Maud. I mean they share

24:33

a kiss at the Botanical Garden party Yeah,

24:35

that was daring tucked away under the honeysuckle

24:38

Was it wisteria? Whatever it was. It

24:40

was dreamy, but alas Alicia

24:43

dreams are cut short by

24:45

alarm clocks Working alarm

24:47

clocks. It seems that Jack's

24:49

alarm clock has at long

24:51

last actually gone off and

24:54

Not this time during lunch, but

24:56

in the morning on time Good

24:59

segue there Tom. Yes Jack has

25:01

been working on the escape wheel

25:04

so it can run without oil

25:06

and Vanister encourages Jack to apply

25:08

for a patent to protect his

25:10

invention But it costs $15 to

25:12

apply and then $20 more if

25:15

they grant his patent money that

25:17

Jack just doesn't have so Everyone

25:20

chips in including Agnes John

25:24

What is this business? Vanister has been

25:27

telling me about a clock John's

25:30

invented a type of alarm clock. He's

25:32

a plan for a patent. How exciting

25:36

We all rely on alarm clocks and most

25:38

of them don't work. I rely on Armstrong

25:40

who always sets an alarm We've all chipped

25:42

in downstairs for John to pay the patent

25:45

fee. Well, then we must contribute. I

25:48

Think I got enough money. No

25:50

one has enough money Here

25:53

are five dollars and I'll give

25:55

you three What mr. Armstrong

25:57

asked would I pay back the money if they don't give

25:59

me the patent? and I'm not sure I could.

26:01

Never mind Armstrong, I like

26:04

the idea of supporting an inventor. And

26:07

now we must go up and change. People

26:13

can surprise you, can't they? They

26:15

believe in you, and so do I.

26:19

Oh, we believe in you too, Jack, don't

26:21

we, Alicia? Yes, we do. We

26:23

would definitely chip in. By the way, the $15 in 1883

26:26

would be worth about

26:29

$450 today. Then

26:32

he would need another $600 in today's money or

26:36

so if they granted the patent. So yeah, I mean,

26:38

you can see how this would have been a lot

26:40

of cash to find. Yeah, and more

26:43

than Jack makes, I'm sure. Yeah,

26:45

definitely. So let's talk about patents,

26:47

because I know that the Gilded

26:49

Age was a real time of

26:51

innovation and invention, so I imagine

26:53

there were many patents being applied

26:55

for. So many, yeah.

26:57

I mean, inventions were transforming

26:59

society, right? Consider this, by

27:01

1860, the US Patent Office

27:06

had issued only 60,000 patents. But

27:09

by 1890, that number had jumped to 450,000. And

27:15

another 235,000 patents would be issued during

27:19

the next decade. So Jack

27:21

wanted in on that action.

27:25

And wait, this is a really jam-packed

27:27

episode because we still need to talk

27:29

about Peggy. She's back from

27:31

her harrowing experience in Alabama, and

27:33

Dorothy tells her about schools that

27:35

need help in New York. The

27:37

Education Board is trying to shut

27:39

down black schools, including the one

27:41

run by Sarah Garnett, who was

27:43

a real person. Oh yeah,

27:45

she was a real person. She was born Sarah

27:48

Smith in Brooklyn in 1831. And

27:51

in her early 20s, she became a public

27:53

school teacher at a black school in Brooklyn,

27:56

as schools were segregated by race.

27:58

And then a decade later, in 1863,

28:01

she was appointed Principal of the Colored

28:04

School No. 4 on West 17th Street

28:06

in Manhattan's Chelsea neighborhood, making her one

28:08

of the first black women to become

28:10

a principal in the New York City

28:13

school system. And this was in

28:15

1863, right at the same time that

28:18

New York was overtaken by the

28:21

anti-black mob violence called the Civil

28:23

War draft riots. Yeah,

28:25

and we talked about those riots

28:27

last season, because that was

28:29

one of the reasons that so many

28:31

African Americans moved to Brooklyn, where they

28:33

felt safer. Indeed, yes. And Sarah,

28:35

living in Brooklyn, but working here on West

28:38

17th Street, was in the school

28:41

at the time of the riots, as

28:43

white rioters were beating on the doors of

28:46

the school, trying to get inside. The

28:49

night before, mobs had burned the

28:51

colored orphan asylum to the ground

28:53

in Midtown. But according

28:56

to the New York Times, Sarah, quote,

28:58

rose to the challenge of protecting the

29:01

children under her charge. They

29:03

barricaded doors, they kept the mob from

29:05

entering and, quote, later that day, Tompkins

29:08

escorted many of the school children

29:10

safely to their homes through the

29:12

dangerous streets before heading to her

29:14

own home in Brooklyn. Wow,

29:16

she really sounds extraordinary. Yes, clearly

29:19

she was. And she would also

29:21

become active in the suffrage movement

29:23

and was a co-founder of the

29:25

National Women's Afro-American Union of New

29:28

York. She married the abolitionist

29:30

Henry Highland Garnett in 1875. Her first

29:32

husband, Samuel

29:35

Tompkins, had died 20 years before. So

29:38

yes, extraordinary and a principle in

29:40

Manhattan at the time of our

29:42

story. And in our story,

29:44

we hear that the Education Board sees

29:46

the Black schools as inferior and plans

29:48

to shut down all three schools. So

29:50

Peggy joins Dorothy at Sarah Garnett's dress

29:53

shop for a meeting and then decides

29:55

to pitch an article to T. Thomas

29:57

Fortune. But she wants another round of

29:59

applause. to cover it because

30:01

she's worried about how it may appear

30:04

if she and Fortune write every article

30:06

together. Yeah, careful Peggy. And

30:09

by the way I am also really

30:11

happy that this plot line has been

30:13

introduced. In real life today this story

30:16

is is finally receiving more attention largely

30:19

because of a years-long campaign that

30:21

has been led by historian Eric

30:23

K. Washington in New York to

30:26

to landmark the historic school building

30:28

at 128 West 17th

30:30

Street where Sarah served as principal.

30:33

And happily I'm happy to report

30:35

that just a few months ago back in May

30:37

of 2023 the city's Landmarks Preservation

30:41

Commission designated the school as

30:43

a city landmark. Oh

30:45

that's amazing and I'm sure we'll be talking

30:47

more about Sarah Garnett in future episodes. But

30:50

then Tom there was Dashal's big

30:52

botanical garden party where he is

30:54

receiving a plaque for the Montgomery

30:57

Solarium and everyone wants Marion to

30:59

attend the celebrations. I mean even

31:01

the other teacher at her school

31:04

where she's teaching the underprivileged tells

31:06

her to go. And Tom we

31:08

soon find out why. Oh

31:11

boy here it comes the

31:13

awkward proposal. That just was

31:16

wrong. I mean I just

31:18

felt so sorry for Marion this

31:20

is an impossible situation because everyone

31:23

is looking at her, they're staring at her,

31:25

they're waiting for her to accept. I think

31:27

Agnes even accepts for her before she even

31:29

has a chance to say anything. I

31:32

don't know I probably would have done the

31:34

same thing if I was in Marion's shoes.

31:36

You know just said yes to avoid the

31:38

embarrassment. What do you think you would

31:40

have done? Oh yeah I would have

31:43

said yes to Dashal. I mean I

31:45

like guys with beards. I mean I'm sure

31:47

he's great. I mean it's just Marion's line

31:49

I guess I do if

31:51

that's what you want. I mean it

31:54

just it just was not the

31:57

enthusiastic. Yes you know that he was

31:59

probably in anticipating, but

32:01

she was in a jam. Yeah, she

32:03

really was. And, you know, the other thing

32:05

I was wondering as I was watching the

32:07

scene was, you know, where were the botanical

32:09

gardens at this time? Well, there were smaller

32:12

botanical gardens in and around the

32:14

city, but the New York Botanical

32:16

Gardens in the Bronx, which

32:18

we all know and love today, wouldn't

32:20

be established until 1891 on the

32:23

grounds of the old L'Orlard estate.

32:26

And by the way, the founding

32:29

officers in charge of that effort

32:31

included Andrew Carnegie, just

32:33

one year before the Homestead Strike,

32:36

J.P. Morgan, you know, of

32:38

the Morgans, and Cornelius

32:40

Vanderbilt, whose railroad actually created

32:43

a stop for the

32:45

gardens. It just always comes back

32:47

to the same families. And

32:49

the same boxes, all of them with boxes. And

32:53

Tom, in our final storyline,

32:55

we see revenge and then

32:57

resolution between the two butlers,

32:59

the English Mr. Bannister and

33:01

the American Mr. Church. Bannister

33:04

thinks that he has one up on church

33:06

when he spots him staggering home drunk after

33:08

a night out. And he's excited to send

33:11

a letter to George Russell telling him about

33:13

church's behavior as he says, is

33:15

it revenge I seek or is it justice?

33:18

And by the way, what about that

33:20

great drunken fall by Jack Gilpin, who

33:22

plays Mr. Church? It was perfect. You

33:25

just went straight down. Good thing that

33:27

boxes, you know, to break his fall.

33:30

Bannister later finds out it was the

33:32

30th anniversary of his wife's death, who

33:35

had died of smallpox at just 24

33:37

years old. So

33:39

young, you know, but luckily Bannister manages

33:41

to rip up the letter to George

33:43

before George receives it just. I mean,

33:45

that was a close call. Just

33:48

in the nick of time, I didn't think the church was

33:50

going to hand it over. No, I thought he

33:52

was going to read it when he offered to read it. I

33:55

thought, oh, here it goes. But it's going to get

33:57

awkward. Then Bannister officially.

34:00

his feud with Church, you know, shaking

34:02

his hand and forgiving him. And with that,

34:04

Alicia, we have cleared up at least one

34:06

of the dramas on the show. I'm

34:08

happy to see that the two butlers

34:11

have resolved their differences. I mean, there

34:13

is so much uncertainty happening right now

34:15

in the Gilded Age. Just let

34:18

Bannister and Church be friends. I agree.

34:20

I'm so glad that they're friends again. And

34:22

you know, with that, we need to take

34:24

a break. But we have plenty more coming

34:26

up for you here on the official Gilded

34:28

Age podcast. Yes, coming up,

34:31

Alicia and I will be talking

34:33

to executive producer David Crockett, plus

34:35

casting director Bernie Kelsey and Adam

34:37

Coldwell. So stay

34:39

listening. Welcome

34:54

to Stand Out. We

34:56

can now tell them. Captain, stand

34:59

down the truth. Company,

35:01

ready, cover. Front

35:04

rank, stand. A

35:13

very tense scene. And we're back. This

35:15

is the official Gilded Age podcast. I'm

35:17

Alicia Malone, joined by Tom Myers. And

35:20

Tom, we have a trio of special

35:22

guests. That's right. We have three

35:24

of the key crew members behind the

35:26

making of the show. David Crockett is

35:28

the executive producer of the Gilded Age,

35:30

his first TV series as EP, after

35:33

years of producing films such as

35:36

working with director Ben Affleck on

35:38

the Oscar nominated movie Gone Baby

35:40

Gone. Bernie Telsey has worked as

35:42

a casting director for many years

35:44

for both the screen and stage,

35:46

including casting hit Broadway musicals such

35:48

as Rent and Hamilton. He and

35:51

his casting director partner, Adam Coldwell,

35:53

have been responsible for bringing together the

35:56

impressive cast of the Gilded Age. And

35:58

Adam has also cast multiple other

36:00

TV shows such as Little America.

36:03

Bernie Telsey, Adam Caldwell and David Crockett,

36:05

thank you all so much for joining

36:07

us. Glad to be here. Thanks

36:09

for having us. Great to be here. We

36:11

are so excited to talk to all of

36:13

you. Now, David, season two of The Gilded

36:15

Age has already been full of

36:18

battles, right? We've got the Opera War, Bertha

36:21

versus Turner, Bertha versus George, but

36:23

the climax of today's episode, as

36:25

we just heard, is the war

36:28

in Pittsburgh between George's company and

36:30

his steelworkers. That was a

36:32

really tense scene and quite frankly, it

36:34

takes a surprising turn. Alicia and I

36:37

were speaking a few minutes ago about

36:39

the parallels with the Homestead Strike of

36:41

1892, which turned out deadlier.

36:43

Could you talk about this storyline a

36:45

bit and did you base it on

36:47

Homestead or on other strikes? Why

36:50

was this important to include? That's a lot

36:52

of questions there and the answer to

36:54

all of them is yes. We

36:57

did base it loosely on the Homestead

36:59

Strike. There were other strikes that we

37:01

used around this time that really helped

37:03

inform this story. Then of course, we

37:05

had to really look at the characters

37:07

and what we could fit in. Julian

37:09

is always trying to tell stories

37:12

that have relevance to what's going on

37:14

in the world. It makes it more

37:16

relatable to everybody, characters in

37:18

the world, if you understand them.

37:21

This storyline is just

37:24

an incredibly relevant storyline today. How

37:26

many different companies

37:28

and industries are going through some sort

37:30

of wage or labor or union issues?

37:32

Of course, I'm not just talking about

37:34

our industry of film and television,

37:36

but shipping and e-commerce and

37:38

restaurants and retailers. It's

37:41

such a relevant story to our

37:44

time. One other thing that was

37:46

also relevant to and why this

37:49

story was so relevant to George's

37:51

time and to the world

37:53

of 1883, which is what the season has

37:55

set in, is that

37:58

the first Labor Day, Day Parade, I believe

38:00

it was, was held in New York in 1882. So this is of

38:02

that time. There's great wealth

38:08

being amassed by these men,

38:10

by these robber barons. So we're kind of

38:13

in that time, in Georgia's time,

38:15

in that soup. And that's kind of where we kind of

38:17

come into it at the beginning of the season with these

38:20

men, the Goulds and the Trittens. They all

38:22

have a meeting. And they're also like, okay,

38:24

what are we going to do about this?

38:27

We're all having this problem and nobody get

38:29

weak because if one of us

38:31

gives, then we're all going to have to give. So that's

38:34

kind of where our story begins over the

38:36

first couple episodes. Yeah. And it also

38:38

kind of takes the show

38:40

in another dimension, because it isn't

38:42

just upstairs and downstairs. It's also

38:45

this other layer of where this

38:48

money behind the ballrooms, where

38:50

does it come from? Never was so

38:52

much wealth created, accumulated, made in such

38:54

a short period of time in the

38:56

entire world history than it was in

38:59

America during that time. So

39:01

with all of that, yeah,

39:03

you got these grand ballrooms and

39:05

these parties and this elite society,

39:07

but it came from

39:09

somewhere and there were prices to be

39:11

paid societally and otherwise. And can

39:14

you just answer a question that popped up earlier

39:16

in our conversation here? In

39:18

the Homestead Strike, Andrew Carnegie

39:20

placed control in the hands

39:22

of Henry Clay Frick. Correct.

39:26

Is it a coincidence that his

39:28

name just happened to be Clay?

39:30

I think not. No, it's

39:33

not. And I think what you'll see, and

39:35

you can see it already in this season,

39:38

and there's truth to that relationship between Andrew

39:40

Carnegie and Frick, the real

39:42

people. There was a friction in

39:44

their relationship. They both had many of

39:46

the same goals, but they also

39:48

looked at the world very differently. And I think

39:51

that sort of is set up

39:53

here in that Clay is pretty

39:56

upset with George, and he has one way to

39:58

do it. Clay's way is... to press

40:00

on and people get hurt,

40:03

people get hurt. You know, that's not my problem. We're

40:05

going to succeed. And so there's a lot of similarities

40:07

there. Yes. Good to pick up on that. I'm glad

40:09

you did. You know, it is so

40:11

rare for the Gilded Age to have

40:13

almost an action scene, this very tense

40:16

battle scene. So, David, what went into

40:18

the staging and the planning of

40:20

shooting this scene? Oh, it was

40:22

a it was a huge endeavor. Our team was

40:25

great for that. Crystal Roberson, the director of this

40:27

episode, came on early to prep for this because

40:29

it was such a big thing. And

40:32

so once we found that location and

40:34

then sort of tried to

40:36

design both the visual effects around

40:38

it, but also how are we going to tell that

40:40

story? That

40:42

story could have been it could have

40:45

been 20 pages long. There were battle

40:47

lines drawn in the Homestead Strike, and

40:49

it really was sort of

40:52

a fortress that was surrounded and

40:54

being defended and with Pinkertons or

40:56

militia coming to to attack. So

40:58

we had all of those, all

41:01

that history, all of those analogies, all of

41:03

that, that to work with, and then trying

41:05

to morph that into a three or four

41:07

minute sequence took a lot. Yeah, it was

41:09

a great fun. It was it was a

41:11

real challenge. And of course, you

41:13

have a cast who is able to do whatever

41:15

you throw at them. And Tom

41:17

and I have talked a lot about how

41:19

many great theater actors are in the cast

41:22

of the Gilded Age. And, you know, I

41:24

remember when there was such a divide between

41:26

TV actors and movie

41:28

actors and also theater actors and

41:31

screen actors. And many of these

41:33

actors are veteran theater actors, but

41:35

ones I've never really seen on

41:38

TV before. So, Bernie, I

41:40

was wondering, is there still that divide? Do

41:42

you think about theater versus screen?

41:44

Not anymore. I mean, I remember growing

41:46

up in casting. There was definitely the

41:49

divide. There was even a divide between

41:51

L.A. and New York. Yeah. And now

41:53

it's all one because there's so much

41:55

television happening and so much good television

41:57

that everybody wants to be working. So

42:00

the theater people can really work in television

42:02

now, especially with the limited series that are

42:04

happening. You know, it's not 22 episodes, it's

42:06

12 episodes or 16 or it's eight. So

42:11

it allows so many people in the theater to

42:13

do a television show in between

42:16

doing theater gigs. And this one specifically,

42:18

like everybody wanted to be on it.

42:21

Right from right from season one. I mean,

42:23

Adam, we have so many

42:25

stories of everybody calling and

42:27

wanting to be considered for it. And

42:29

coming in and being game for the play

42:32

of it, being provided with the playground of

42:34

all these different roles, especially for women of

42:36

a certain age. That was really lovely

42:38

that they were excited about a lot of these roles, singing

42:41

each other in the lobbies and celebrating

42:43

opposite each other that they were like so excited

42:46

and had a great time in the room. And

42:48

a lot of it goes to Michael Engler, too,

42:50

who comes from theater. Yeah, he wanted this to

42:52

be his repertory company, you know,

42:54

and whether they had five episodes or 20

42:56

episodes, like let's just

42:58

get all of our favorite New

43:00

York actors and put them

43:02

somewhere in the Gilded Age, you know. But

43:05

the Washington Post founded all of

43:07

the Tony Award winners and nominees.

43:10

Did you see that? 56 in season one, 56 nominations

43:12

and 22 wins. Listen,

43:16

we were doing that in our own office. You

43:18

know what I mean? I mean, it was thrilling

43:20

and exciting. And then it became like, oh,

43:22

sorry, you don't have one. We can. But

43:26

that was only between us. But

43:29

no, it's, you know, it's the creme of

43:31

the creme. What are some of the benefits

43:33

of having trained stage actors in a show

43:35

like this? I would say that the biggest

43:37

overlap would be in the experience

43:39

with language, right? Like there are

43:41

plenty of amazing actors who don't

43:44

necessarily feel right for a certain period. Although

43:47

this is in classic text, a

43:49

lot of these people have had experience with classic

43:51

text and have studied it being in shows where

43:53

they've had to embody a character from

43:55

a different time and place that

43:58

makes Julian's dialogue sing and feel.

44:00

grand but still real. It's

44:02

been really fun to see the core

44:04

cast develop their characters even more in

44:07

season two. I've loved watching Ada's storyline,

44:09

although this episode was so sad. So

44:11

David, you know, why'd you

44:13

have to break our hearts like this? Can't Ada have

44:16

just a little bit more happiness, please? We

44:18

have a very large cast, and

44:20

we are able to get some of these

44:22

actors for periods of time. You

44:24

know, we can't have everybody for a run of show of all

44:26

the years we hope to go. So that's

44:28

one reason. The other reason is it's a really

44:31

nice and sort of true arc to

44:33

the time. I mean, we see these

44:36

people who live these lives. I mean,

44:38

if we really got into the ditty-gritty,

44:40

people are being run over by carriages

44:42

on a daily basis on these streets.

44:45

People are falling ill, you know,

44:47

as Peggy, we saw with Peggy's

44:49

son and the adoptive mother, you know,

44:51

scarlet fever. I mean, that ran through

44:53

Philadelphia around this time. We're not having

44:56

to create those stories. They just happened.

44:58

So there obviously wasn't the modern medicine and

45:01

the modern things. So these things happened and

45:03

were relatively common. Yeah.

45:06

And Cynthia Nixon is great casting as

45:08

Ada because I feel like this is

45:10

a different role to ones I've seen

45:12

her in before. She's very soft. And

45:14

it seems like she loves this

45:16

character. You know, is she involved in

45:19

creating the storyline? Does she get excited

45:21

about that? You know, Cynthia

45:23

is always really involved. She frequently

45:25

really kind of reads through her

45:28

story, the arc of her story,

45:30

and will have those conversations with

45:32

Michael and with me and on

45:35

occasion with Julian. We will go over and

45:37

over that with her. So she cares deeply

45:39

kind of about all

45:41

of the individual beats, the individual

45:43

moments for Ada are very close

45:45

to her. Not that they're not for everybody else,

45:48

but she takes that extra level of really sort

45:50

of digging in on a regular

45:52

basis with us all about it.

45:54

How can you get better than that? She was very

45:57

much involved in the casting of Robert Charlendred. Adam

46:00

could talk a little bit about that, but they

46:02

have a history together from doing plays,

46:05

you know, 30, 40 years ago

46:07

almost. They were teenagers, they

46:09

did something. But this was a reunion of

46:11

sorts. And I think and hope that that

46:14

warmth between them and that chemistry between them really

46:16

plays into what we needed to

46:19

accomplish for the story in a very short time

46:21

of establishing this connection and these

46:23

gentle souls uniting. And

46:25

hopefully we care for them. And

46:28

it's tough as they get bad

46:30

news. I'm curious about the casting

46:32

process. I mean, for season two,

46:34

you have an established ensemble. Is

46:37

the process any different when you're bringing new

46:40

people in, you know, like Robert Sean Leonard or

46:42

Laura Benanti? I mean, do you have to

46:44

see how they fit into the bigger ensemble

46:47

in a different way? Sure. I

46:49

think that the biggest thing about season two is

46:52

that one, we had less time. We had a great amount

46:54

of time for season one for pulling it together. But

46:56

then also because season one's process had

46:59

been so extensive and we talked about

47:01

so many people and considered

47:03

so many people, there's quite a

47:05

lot of people in season two that were very

47:08

much in the mix in some way

47:10

or discussed previously. So the

47:12

shorthand was faster of, oh, well,

47:14

we already know that Michael and Julian or

47:17

the team loved this person. And

47:19

what about when you're using or when

47:21

you're casting a real life character? You

47:23

know, we've seen already obviously Caroline Astor,

47:25

Ward McAllister, T. Thomas Fortune.

47:27

In this season so far, we've met

47:30

Booker T. Washington and even Oscar Wilde,

47:32

right? These are real people. What

47:34

considerations go into casting them?

47:37

I mean, are you basing it on

47:39

how much an actor looks like what

47:41

we know the person looked like at

47:43

the time? How does that work? Certainly

47:45

a component of it. That

47:47

there's, it's like a flavor. You

47:49

know, you wanna have a recognizable flavor, I think,

47:52

you know, so that the audience can, oh,

47:54

I see what they're doing or I see what

47:56

this story that they're telling. You know, it's not

47:58

an exact look alike, but. Enough of I

48:01

think Nathan Lane brings his own flavor I

48:05

love watching him in this role. Why?

48:07

Yeah, it's really fun because

48:09

he fits right in and he's the opposite

48:11

of anyone He's playing with you know, whether

48:13

it's either side of the

48:16

street He fits in and he was really

48:18

enthusiastic about learning as much as he could

48:20

about the period and

48:22

about the character and bringing that discussing that

48:24

with with Michael and Julian and having questions

48:26

about it and Very carefully

48:28

considered everything in the dialect as well. How

48:30

hard he's trying to get it. Absolutely right

48:32

for what should be David How

48:35

does your job intersect with Bernie and

48:37

Adams are you there in the audition

48:39

rooms are watching the self tapes? How

48:41

involved do you get in the casting

48:43

process? Well, I talked to Bernie and Adam

48:45

for better or for worse I'll let them be the

48:48

judge of that. It seems like almost every day exactly

48:52

But I'm helping the process as much I

48:54

it is not my area of expertise I

48:57

probably bring somewhere between point five and

48:59

point seven percent Let me do the

49:01

math real quick of the ideas to

49:03

the table But they you know between

49:06

Michael and Bernie and Adam They're

49:08

really bringing those people to the table and then

49:10

we're going through I'm part of

49:12

that group But it's really those three who

49:14

are the core of our casting group and one

49:16

of the biggest reasons we're in New York or

49:18

we film in New York and HBO was so gracious

49:20

to place the show in New York is because of

49:23

this deep well of incredibly

49:25

talented and Properly

49:27

classically trained actors. So

49:29

the pool is is

49:32

deep So we're constantly I would

49:34

say I'm probably most in

49:36

the helping to shuffle around and say maybe this

49:38

person for that or let's give these Three to

49:40

Michael or to Julian and let's keep that person

49:42

for this and and that sort of thing So

49:44

I will say that one of the most exciting

49:46

things for me is I Watch

49:49

copious amounts of television and film and all

49:51

of that is and that's where my background

49:53

is But then you come and you see

49:55

people just in this season alone

49:57

like Jeremy Shamo's who? who

50:00

plays Mr. Gilbert from the

50:03

Metropolitan Opera. And I didn't know

50:05

him from before, but yet his

50:07

performance is so specific and perfect that

50:09

now I've learned that whole thing and

50:11

that whole fun. We joke, one

50:14

of my favorite lines from the season is when

50:16

Mrs. Aster comes up to him

50:18

at the beginning of the season and says, I

50:21

think Bertha says, oh, do you know

50:23

Mr. Gilbert? She says, oh, you're grubbing

50:25

up money for the Metropolitan Opera House.

50:27

And he's not flattering, but true. So,

50:32

we have this, it's Laura Benanti, Matilda Lawler,

50:34

of course, Robert Schallender, who we all know

50:36

from his many roles, but there are the

50:38

other Chris Denham, David Fur, who you all

50:41

know, I know, but I

50:43

don't know the way Bernie and Adam know.

50:45

And it's so rewarding and wonderful. I hope

50:47

the audience experiences a lot of that, which

50:49

is they get to know these people in

50:51

a different level. So we're incredibly fortunate. Specifically

50:54

with this show, what's great

50:56

about having David on the team, even

50:59

before we get the actual scripts

51:01

or the actual description from Julian

51:03

or Michael, because David's

51:05

involved in all of those script plots

51:07

and outlines, he'll give us a heads

51:09

up about, there's gonna be this

51:11

guy and he's gonna be there because he needs to

51:13

do this, that and the other. He

51:16

starts to give us a sense of the

51:18

character so we can start thinking

51:21

way before we even need

51:23

to, so that we can narrow it down

51:25

by the time we have to show Michael and Julian

51:27

and Gareth, and that's

51:29

what his choice is. But it's great having

51:31

David as that conduit in between. Inside

51:34

man, informant. Yeah. Yeah. David

51:37

is good at maneuvering through all of the steps

51:39

and getting us the information we need, which is

51:41

often changing on a daily basis, but he and

51:43

his team are amazing at helping us out and

51:46

predicting what's going to happen and what's essential to

51:48

happen in the next 24 hours. In

51:51

this episode, Henderson, the union

51:53

boss, there's a moment

51:55

where he shakes George's hand outside of his

51:57

house, the look on his face.

51:59

So good. It's like so good and it

52:01

just it says a million words.

52:03

It just says the whole thing right there

52:05

I have to shake this man's hand But

52:08

I don't have to give him the underlying

52:10

respect that a handshake with this man would

52:13

deserve and it's just the way he looks

52:15

Away, I completely agree. I'm so

52:17

glad you saw that. I'm just rewatching it recently

52:19

saw that and and It's

52:22

really something Morgan as George is so is so wonderful

52:24

And it's the first time we get to see him

52:26

really out of his element from the

52:28

world that he's used to versus Versus

52:31

all of the people in the town

52:33

and the conflict that he's up against

52:35

over the Botanical Garden where Marianne is

52:38

She's in such a tough spot right

52:40

getting this very public proposal from Dashall

52:43

I am curious David how we

52:46

the audience are supposed to feel

52:48

about this relationship I mean, she's

52:50

clearly conflicted. We're conflicted. He's a

52:52

nice guy, right? But

52:55

how are we supposed to feel I think you

52:57

put it really well and it's a word I

52:59

think we used a lot which is she's in

53:01

a spot. She's in a real spot I think

53:04

it's a bit underplayed on on our show the

53:06

reality of the fact that Underplayed because we I

53:08

think we follow so many women's storylines and all

53:10

of our characters seem so active with

53:12

so much going on But

53:14

the truth is that Marianne she

53:17

wouldn't have had many options. I mean from the beginning

53:20

Literally the first episode Agnes and Ada her

53:22

you know The ants came in and they

53:25

implied she could help out with some

53:27

charities But really it was that

53:29

and she should meet some young people because she's

53:31

gonna need to find a husband I mean, that's

53:33

her life life's work And then you know I

53:35

think back to the end of the season when

53:37

Marianne is talking to Peggy end of the first

53:39

season and she's you know She doesn't have some

53:41

burning passion. She doesn't want to change the world.

53:44

She just wants to be busy She wants to

53:46

do something she wants to contribute and she doesn't

53:48

want to wait for her husband Throughout the season

53:50

as she when she teaches when she's in that

53:52

classroom with those girls she can relate to them

53:54

And I think Marianne I think Louisa who

53:56

plays Marianne kind of shines in those moments.

53:58

She really kind of spread her wings

54:00

and then Dashill comes along and he's not

54:02

a bad choice. He's not a bad guy.

54:05

He's, he ticks a

54:07

lot of boxes. Perfect on paper.

54:09

Yeah, he does. He's perhaps

54:12

not the most exciting. Handsome.

54:14

But he is handsome as Agnes

54:17

points out. Good father. Good father

54:19

and she really enjoys rich. She

54:21

experiences Dashill's daughter

54:23

and she is at the end of the day

54:25

she is Marian so she kind of bops into

54:27

the botanical gardens. She's a little late but she's

54:30

there and then you know Dashill

54:32

in his moment pulls her up and

54:35

gets on a knee and you

54:37

know she starts to tear up. She looks

54:40

at Frances. She looks at her

54:42

aunts and maybe even on the corner Larry has

54:44

a little look of like what the heck's going

54:46

on here and you

54:49

know she gives the answer every guy wants to hear.

54:52

Well if you really want me to, she's

54:59

in a real spot. He

55:01

also don't forget kind of like put down her

55:04

career in this episode. I know I did not

55:06

like that. You're

55:08

not a real teacher but we had

55:10

to be reminded like you know that

55:13

Dashill, that wasn't unusual. That was like what 98%

55:15

of the guys would have

55:17

said. It's not yeah but I mean of

55:19

course you want to be a mom and

55:21

raise my kid and wait for me at

55:23

the end of the day. I mean who

55:26

wouldn't want that you know so yeah no

55:28

it's rough. Yeah but Marian's face

55:30

there. I mean what an amazing

55:32

expression. Adam we were

55:34

reading in Variety that you knew

55:36

Louisa Jacobson prior to casting her

55:38

as Marian. Oh yes we

55:41

knew her basically through Yale drama school

55:43

is what she was graduating from and

55:45

our office again from Castellana Theatre we

55:48

cast her in a production at Williamstown

55:50

Theatre Festival. So that was our

55:52

first experience with her. She was an audition reader for

55:54

us in the past when

55:56

she really wanted to to be immersed into We

56:00

also had cast Ben Ollers, who plays Jack

56:02

in the same production. So they had met

56:05

each other. Ben I had met

56:08

at University of Michigan when he was still a student.

56:10

I was doing a master class with them and

56:13

getting to see how talented he was. I

56:15

thought of him for Williamstown's, Williamstown Theatre Festival.

56:17

And he auditioned and was cast in

56:19

that. And then to that,

56:21

I mean, it's really remarkable to see

56:24

the way people grow and Louisa as

56:26

well. David, what impresses you

56:28

the most about Denae as an actress? Because

56:30

just this season alone, we've seen Peggy go

56:32

through grief. I

56:34

mean, she's dealt with horrific racism and

56:36

possibly falling in love with a married

56:39

man. I mean, she does it so

56:41

well. Denae just kills it on every

56:43

level. I mean, her character, as you mentioned, yeah,

56:45

Peggy is going through so much. And

56:48

at her simplest level, she's not unlike

56:50

Marion. She's a young woman trying to

56:53

find her place in the world. But

56:56

she's got so much more going against her,

56:58

so many more challenges going against her. So

57:00

yeah, to see her kind of take on

57:03

those challenges. She doesn't have to have all

57:05

of the lines in the scene or have

57:07

to have all of the moments. But

57:10

she is telling you so much, you know,

57:12

at the Van Rine household or at Booker

57:14

T. Washington's table. She is telling you so

57:16

much with a word, a key phrase

57:19

here, an expression there, and is

57:21

really doing it without all of those lines.

57:23

And then conversely, on the flip side, once

57:25

she gets to those moments with, you know,

57:28

sitting with the adoptive father of her

57:31

son and learning about that loss or

57:33

in the barn with fortune, being chased

57:35

by a mob or

57:38

even milking a cow.

57:41

So she delivers it with grace and

57:44

emotion and humor. I mean, again, she's got

57:46

it all. And again, if we could just

57:48

hear her sing, I think it would bring

57:50

it all full circle. We've

57:53

got to make that happen. Wow,

57:56

this has been really insightful. Thank you

57:58

all so much for your time. David Crockett,

58:00

Bernie Chelsea and Adam Paltwell. Thank you

58:02

for being here. Thanks for having us.

58:04

Thank you. Great fun. Great

58:07

fun. Wow, Alicia. Such

58:13

an interesting conversation and I just have

58:15

to say I'm so happy that David

58:17

cleared up the whole Clay, Clay Frick,

58:19

Henry Clay mystery. There

58:22

was a connection there. Yeah, you

58:24

were right as always. You're so good

58:26

at spotting these things. And you know,

58:28

right at the end there, they spoke

58:30

about Denae Benton singing. And before we

58:32

started recording, we were talking about how

58:35

many musical stars there are in this

58:37

cast. I mean, wouldn't you love to

58:39

see a musical episode of the Gilded

58:41

Age? We would just keep asking them

58:43

for it until it finally happens. At least one

58:45

episode, a very special Gilded Age Christmas or

58:48

something. They can make this happen. Yes,

58:51

let's do it. Well, unfortunately, we

58:53

have to wrap it up for today. But

58:55

don't forget that you can see new episodes

58:57

of the HBO original series, the Gilded Age

58:59

Sundays on Max. And then make

59:02

sure you tune into our podcast, also

59:04

available on Max or wherever you get

59:06

your podcast. Speak to you next week. Bye

59:09

bye. This

59:21

has been the official Gilded Age podcast,

59:23

written, hosted and produced by David. Produced

59:25

by Alicia Malone and me, Tom Myers.

59:28

Our supervising producer is Andrew

59:30

Pemberton Fowler. Our editor

59:33

is Trey Booty with special thanks

59:35

to Michael Gluxat and Savon Slater

59:37

from HBO, and Hannah Pederson

59:39

and Amy Machado from Pod People. Listen

59:43

to the official Gilded Age podcast

59:45

after each episode airs on Max

59:47

or wherever you find podcasts. Want

59:50

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59:52

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59:54

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59:59

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1:00:01

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People. Pod

1:00:10

People! Hi

1:00:13

everyone, this is Tom. For more

1:00:16

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1:00:18

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1:00:22

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On The Bowery Boys, we

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