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shopify.com/ offer23. You

1:02

seem very earnest. What

1:05

are you talking about? Peggy's

1:09

work at the Globe. That's very important of course.

1:11

But I think

1:13

tonight we should just admire the bridge

1:17

and give thanks for what man has achieved

1:19

in our lifetime. Hello

1:24

and welcome to the official Gilded

1:26

Age podcast. I'm Tom Myers from

1:29

the Bowery Boys podcast and sitting

1:31

with me is Alicia Malone from

1:33

Turner Classic Movies. Hi Alicia. Hi

1:36

Tom and hello to all of

1:38

you fellow Gilded Age enthusiasts. Can

1:41

you believe that we're up to episode

1:43

seven of season two, the second to

1:45

last episode? No. Don't

1:49

worry. There is plenty more to come before

1:51

the big finale. Last week,

1:53

Tom, there was a tense standoff involving the

1:55

striking workers at George Russell's Pittsburgh

1:58

mill. Dashiell proposed... Marion

2:00

in a very public way and

2:02

Luke Forte revealed that he has

2:04

cancer. That was a lot. And

2:07

this week we're focusing on the

2:09

grand opening of the Brooklyn Bridge. We'll

2:11

be throwing a party and watching the

2:14

fireworks with awe and talking

2:16

about this major historical event

2:18

with co-producer Luke Harlan and

2:20

the talented head of the

2:22

Gilded Age Hair Department, Sean

2:24

Flanagan. Julian originally had the

2:26

idea of a rags to riches story for Jack

2:28

and that really, we all got really excited about

2:30

that and then the research team came back with

2:33

a lot of different historical examples of rags to

2:35

riches and there was all sorts of things, bicycles

2:37

and but the one that Julian

2:40

and all of us really found

2:42

exciting was this clock idea that

2:45

Jack could actually invent something.

2:48

This is Season 2 Episode

2:50

7, Wonders Never Seize written

2:53

by Julian Fellows and Sonya

2:55

Warfield and directed by Michael

2:57

Engle. The

3:07

episode begins with Bunting being rolled out

3:09

to celebrate the opening of the Brooklyn

3:11

Bridge. In real life this happened on May

3:14

24, 1883 and Tom, just like we see here, the whole city

3:18

was abuzz with excitement. Oh,

3:21

the city had been waiting for this

3:23

moment for years. Construction

3:25

on what was then called the East River

3:27

Bridge had actually started 13 years

3:30

before in early 1870. So

3:33

for more than a decade

3:35

residents of both Brooklyn and

3:37

New York City had watched

3:39

in awe as this massive

3:41

neo-Gothic suspension bridge rose out

3:43

of the East River. And

3:45

nothing like that had been achieved before. That's

3:48

right. Yeah, it's central Spanish, nearly 1600

3:50

feet. Nothing

3:52

that long had even been thought possible. And

3:55

it also straddles the East River

3:58

connecting two separate cities. I

4:01

mean, yeah, because now we think of

4:03

Manhattan and Brooklyn as being two

4:06

different boroughs in New York

4:08

City, but back at this time, they were

4:10

two separate cities. Yes, and would

4:12

stay that way until 1898. New

4:16

York City was the largest city in

4:18

the US, right? And it was comprised

4:20

of today's Manhattan and parts of the

4:22

Bronx. And it had a population of

4:24

about 1.2 million people in 1880. And

4:29

Brooklyn was the country's third largest city

4:31

in 1880 and had about 600,000 residents.

4:36

So this bridge, which was

4:38

architecturally beautiful, right, and was a

4:41

fine feat of engineering, it also

4:43

literally linked these two super important

4:45

cities for the very first time.

4:48

It created a super

4:50

city, or what Emma

4:53

Lazarus in her 1883 poem,

4:55

The New Colossus, called, quote,

4:57

the Twin Cities. And

4:59

as we saw in season one, Brooklyn residents

5:01

like Peggy had to go back and forth

5:03

across the East River via a

5:05

ferry, which was not at all

5:07

convenient. No, no, and much less

5:10

predictable. Many Brooklyn residents

5:12

worked in Manhattan, of course, but those

5:14

ferry commutes could get really long in

5:17

bad weather or even worse, they could

5:19

stop indefinitely, you know, if the river

5:21

froze. We've seen this

5:23

happen on the show before. Yeah,

5:26

I remember in the very first episode

5:28

of the show, Peggy couldn't cross because

5:30

of bad weather. So she came to

5:32

61st Street with Marion. But

5:34

now this new bridge would make commuting

5:36

a breeze. And the same

5:39

year that it opened in 1883, cable

5:41

car service started whisking passengers back and

5:43

forth on the bridge as well, which

5:45

further sped things up. And in this episode,

5:47

you know, we see the sense of wonder

5:49

the characters have for the bridge. We

5:52

just heard Arthur remark that they should

5:54

give thanks for what man has achieved

5:56

in their lifetime. Yeah. Remember

5:58

last season? We saw Edison do

6:01

the impossible. He brought a kind of

6:03

daylight to the streets and the buildings

6:05

at night. And we

6:07

saw the wonder on everybody's faces as

6:10

they absorbed that change. Well, here in

6:12

this episode, we see a similar

6:14

sense of awe, right, as our

6:16

characters appreciate how nature

6:18

has been tamed and how these

6:20

two magnificent cities have been forever

6:23

tied together. And they're here

6:25

right in the middle of it. And their lives

6:28

are changed for the better because of it. Absolutely.

6:30

But there was sacrifice and

6:32

tragedy along the way. There

6:35

was a sense of tragedy that had been linked

6:37

to the bridge for years. At

6:39

least 20 workers died during

6:41

its construction, and another 12

6:45

died in a stampede that occurred one

6:47

week after the bridge opened. And

6:49

we see, you know, Chief Engineer Washington Robling

6:52

in this episode. But we

6:54

don't see or hear about his father,

6:56

John Robling, who was the mastermind behind

6:58

the bridge and originally designed it, and

7:01

who in 1869 suffered a freak accident while doing

7:04

survey work and died. And

7:07

so the role of Chief Engineer then

7:09

passed down to his son, Washington Robling,

7:11

who had been working for his father.

7:14

And Washington was married to Emily Robling,

7:16

who is a big part of this

7:18

episode. That's right. As

7:21

we heard back in episode five, when

7:23

they were married for their honeymoon,

7:25

Washington and Emily actually toured Europe

7:28

visiting suspension bridges and construction

7:30

sites. A very romantic

7:33

honeymoon. So once

7:35

Washington took over as the

7:37

Chief Engineer of this bridge project,

7:40

what happened then? Well, he got

7:42

right to work on the sinking of the caissons. Caissons

7:45

are the pressurized chambers that dug down

7:47

into the riverbed, right, to lay the

7:49

foundations for the towers. However,

7:52

many of the men were digging

7:54

down in those pressurized caissons, soon

7:57

began getting sick with what was called

7:59

the bend. or caissons

8:01

disease and soon that

8:03

included Washington roblin as well and so

8:06

then just a couple of years here after

8:08

taking over the project from his father Washington

8:12

largely had to remain in his home

8:15

in Brooklyn Heights still directing the

8:17

project but really unable to visit

8:19

the worksite often he would

8:22

then watch the towers take shape

8:24

through a small telescope from his

8:26

home and he really relied on

8:28

his wife Emily then for the

8:30

day-to-day management of the project and

8:33

the whole world was watching including

8:36

the president of the United States

8:38

Chester Arthur who we see in

8:40

this episode yes president Arthur was there

8:42

on the opening day of the bridge May 24th

8:44

1883 there was an elaborate procession

8:49

including 14 platoons

8:51

of the 7th regiment and marching

8:53

bands and dozens of carriages the

8:56

descended 5th Avenue picked up president

8:58

Arthur at the 5th Avenue Hotel

9:00

along with governor Grover

9:02

Cleveland of New York State and mayor

9:04

Edson of New York City along

9:07

with you know several cabinet members and

9:09

city aldermen anybody who was important and

9:12

they made their way down to the bridge

9:14

and walked all the way across to the

9:16

Brooklyn side of the bridge followed

9:19

you know by throngs thousands of

9:21

people and when they

9:23

reached the Brooklyn side of the bridge the

9:25

Brooklyn mayor Seth Lowe stepped forward

9:29

and linked arms with New York mayor

9:31

Edson and the president was standing

9:33

there cheering them on and the crowd screamed

9:35

their approval it was like

9:37

a literal linking of the two

9:39

cities there yes indeed so

9:41

did the president then go to the robling

9:44

house in Brooklyn you know as we see

9:46

in the show well yeah after several long

9:48

speeches had been given on the

9:51

Brooklyn side then the entire presidential

9:53

party moved through the streets of

9:55

today's Brooklyn Heights to the robling

9:57

home on Columbia Heights Washington

10:00

and Emily sat in their

10:02

parlor, shaking hands with the

10:04

president, and countless other dignitaries.

10:07

Yes, and on the show, he's arrived with

10:09

Mrs. Astor along with several other faces we

10:11

know. So, you know, I have

10:13

to ask, in reality, was Mrs. Astor there? Because

10:16

she talks a big game in this

10:18

episode about helping Emily Roebling. Did

10:21

she introduce the president to the Roeblings? No.

10:24

In fact, according to the next day's

10:26

New York Times, that introduction

10:28

was done by Agnes van

10:31

Rijn. What? Wait. Oh

10:33

no, sorry. Just joking. Mayor

10:36

Seth Lower Brooklyn, Alicia, was the

10:38

one who introduced the president to

10:40

the Roeblings. That makes more sense.

10:43

But on our show, Bertha, who is

10:45

also at the Roeblings, watches in horror

10:47

as Mrs. Astor introduces the

10:49

Duke to the president, and she

10:51

realizes that Mrs. Astor has stolen

10:53

the Duke from herself, who actually

10:56

stole him from Mrs. Winterton. This

10:58

Duke gets around. I mean, where

11:01

exactly do his loyalties lie? Right?

11:04

But get ready, because we have

11:06

another surprise moment when at the

11:08

Roebling party, Norman Tate makes a

11:10

speech and invites Mr. Russell to

11:12

address the assembled party, but he

11:15

ends up with Larry Russell instead

11:17

of George Russell. Yeah.

11:19

Larry thanks Mr. Roebling for his

11:21

vision, and then he drops his

11:23

virtual mic by revealing that

11:26

Mrs. Emily Roebling took over this project

11:28

from her husband, enabling the construction of

11:30

the bridge to continue in his

11:32

absence. And Larry asks everyone

11:34

to raise a toast to Emily Roebling

11:37

for her enormous contribution to the

11:39

Brooklyn Bridge. Hear hear. I

11:41

would raise a glass to Emily Roebling. Yes.

11:44

And to Washington Roebling, and to his father,

11:46

John Roebling. And there were a

11:48

lot of glasses raised to them that night. Yeah.

11:52

So we've already spoken a bit about

11:54

the real Emily Roebling. Of course, this

11:56

is a TV show and Larry Russell

11:58

is fictional. speech didn't

12:00

happen. No, there was

12:02

no Larry Russell, but Emily Warren

12:05

Roblin was mentioned in flowery speeches

12:07

on the bridge. The first speech

12:09

was actually given by Congressman Abram

12:12

Hewitt. And in front of the president, he

12:15

sang the praises of John Roblin,

12:17

then Washington Roblin, and

12:19

then Emily, whose name, quote, will

12:21

be inseparably associated with all that

12:24

is admirable in human nature and

12:26

with all that is wonderful in

12:28

the constructive world of art. So

12:32

beat that, Larry. I'm

12:34

so glad that she was actually

12:36

recognized at the time. That's lovely.

12:38

She was. And by the way,

12:41

she also held the distinction of being

12:43

in the very first carriage to ever

12:45

cross the Brooklyn Bridge, like ever.

12:48

Washington Roblin had asked her

12:50

to cross it to help

12:52

understand how trotting horses affected

12:54

the bridge. And turns out

12:56

they're not a big deal. Luckily. But

12:59

a little bit later, Larry approaches Mrs.

13:01

Roblin, who predicts that they will print

13:03

that I was a wonderful wife who

13:06

served her husband to the best of

13:08

abilities. They will ignore the true nature

13:10

of my contribution. So

13:13

how was she talked about in

13:15

newspapers and in the press at

13:17

the time? Well, the day before the bridge opened,

13:19

on May 23rd, the New

13:21

York Times published an amazing article

13:24

titled Mrs. Roblin's Skill, How the

13:26

Wife of the Brooklyn Bridge Engineer

13:28

Has Assisted Her Husband, which

13:31

went on to actually claim that she had

13:33

functioned basically as its chief engineer.

13:36

Well, so she was really the chief

13:39

engineer. Well, like

13:41

most things in history, defining her

13:43

exact role is complicated. In

13:46

the 2017 biography of Washington

13:48

Roblin, chief engineer, author

13:51

Erica Wagner lists this

13:53

remarkable day-to-day list of

13:55

responsibilities that Emily was

13:57

charged with, but maintain...

14:00

pains that Washington, quote,

14:02

while he was badly affected by his

14:04

sickness, his mind was as sharp as

14:07

ever, and he was never not in

14:09

control of the work. And yet, Emily

14:12

wrote later in 1898 to her

14:14

son John that quote, but

14:16

for me, the Brooklyn Bridge would never have

14:18

had the name of Robling in any way

14:20

connected with it. Your father was for years

14:23

dead to all interest in

14:25

that work. Hmm. Well,

14:27

yeah, that really does sound complicated. Very

14:31

complicated. However you want to define

14:33

her role, I think that everybody

14:35

agrees that Emily was

14:37

absolutely vital to the bridge's completion.

14:40

And she would get more recognition over the

14:42

years. You can find her name on a

14:45

plaque dedicated to the builders of the bridge

14:47

and the South Tower that was placed in

14:49

1951. And in

14:51

2018, a part of Columbia Heights near

14:54

the old Robling home was renamed

14:56

Emily Warren Robling Way. Oh,

14:59

good. Okay, so let's switch back

15:01

to New York now, because Borden

15:03

asks Mrs. Bruce if she would

15:06

like to join him to watch

15:08

the fireworks. As he says, the

15:10

paper has noted this will be

15:13

the largest fireworks display ever. Yeah,

15:16

indeed. I mean, crowds were gathering

15:18

on both sides of the river

15:20

on balconies, on rooftops, packed

15:22

into the streets and boats on the river. Anywhere

15:25

they could see the bridge. And even here,

15:27

it's on mansions. And this

15:29

is developing into a sweet little

15:31

romance, isn't it? Yeah, I mean,

15:33

I have to say, I like them together.

15:35

It's quite sweet. And we

15:37

see here the crowd gathering ready to

15:39

watch the fireworks. I mean, this really

15:42

must have been an unforgettable evening for

15:44

both New Yorkers and for Brooklynites. Unforgettable.

15:47

The New York Times wrote that the

15:49

first rockets shot up at 8 p.m.

15:52

from the center of the bridge and

15:54

lit the sky for a full hour

15:56

ending at 9 p.m. when quote, 500

16:01

rockets illuminated the sky. The

16:03

riverfront was one blaze of

16:05

light. That must have been

16:07

beautiful. And now we'll

16:09

have to go back to the drama

16:12

with Mrs. Astor and Bertha because Mrs.

16:14

Astor's Duke stealing was in retaliation for

16:16

something that happened earlier on in this

16:19

episode. Mrs. Astor pulled a

16:21

lot of strings and pushed others

16:23

aside to offer Mrs. Russell

16:25

her own box at the Academy, which is

16:27

what she always wanted. But

16:29

Tom, this feels like a bit of

16:31

a last ditch attempt for Mrs. Astor

16:34

to ruin the Metropolitan's opera's plans. Yeah,

16:36

there's something a little desperate, right, about

16:39

how obvious Mrs. Astor's plan is

16:41

here. When George and

16:43

Bertha are talking about it later, George

16:45

tells her to not even consider the

16:48

offer. I like how he

16:50

called the Academy, quote, too

16:52

small and unambitious. And

16:54

you know, I mean, let's face it, Bertha

16:56

ain't unambitious. Exactly.

16:59

And Mrs. Astor is so sure

17:01

that Bertha will say yes, that

17:04

in front of all the women

17:06

attending Aurora Fain's charity meeting, she

17:08

announces that Bertha now has a

17:10

box at the Academy, which confuses

17:12

everyone until Bertha clears things up. I'm

17:15

sorry, but I've thought about it and I

17:17

want to stay loyal to the map. You'll regret

17:19

it. In fact, I

17:23

feel sorry for you making a fool of

17:25

yourself in public like this. It was

17:27

you who decided to do it in front of an audience. Because

17:29

I could not have imagined you to be

17:31

so deluded as to turn me

17:33

down. Good day, Mrs.

17:35

Fain. But we

17:37

haven't started the meeting. Well, I cannot stay.

17:40

Can someone fetch my carriage? Of course. Mrs.

17:44

Astor, I'd hate to embarrass you. That's the

17:46

last thing I would want to do. I

17:49

really have a funny way of showing it. OK,

17:54

something surprised me here. When

17:56

Bertha said, I hate to

17:58

embarrass you. I thought that Mrs.

18:01

Astor would shoot back with something sassy,

18:03

but instead she says, well, you have a funny

18:06

way of showing it. And

18:08

I realized, wow, Mrs. Astor was actually

18:10

a little bit vulnerable. Yeah,

18:13

she, she definitely looked hurt and, you

18:15

know, a little embarrassed. And Bertha's way

18:17

of saying no was, was rude, but

18:19

I do think she's made the right

18:22

choice in sticking with the met. Yeah.

18:25

Even if this made everybody uncomfortable.

18:27

Did you notice Mamie Fish staring

18:30

inside her teacup? I mean,

18:32

even she was speechless. And

18:34

that's tough, you know, to make Mamie Fish

18:37

speechless. But I'm

18:39

curious, you know, Tom, what would you

18:41

have done if you were in this

18:43

predicament? Would you risk being at a

18:45

new upper house or would you, you

18:47

know, switch to the tried and true

18:50

academy? I might have tried to

18:52

get boxes at both of them

18:54

and then hide it from Mrs. Astor. And what

18:56

about you, Alicia? Where would you go? I

18:59

think I would stay at the Met

19:02

and, you know, just incur the wrath

19:04

of Mrs. Astor because

19:06

the Met seemed more modern and kind

19:09

of like a progressive choice. Yeah.

19:12

And definitely less stuffy. That's

19:14

right. Well, speaking of

19:16

taking a stand, in the last

19:18

episode, George stopped the National Guard

19:21

from firing on his striking workers.

19:23

And in this episode, we hear

19:25

that he's agreed to several of

19:27

their demands, safeguards, medical care, a

19:30

children's park and a pay rise.

19:32

And Clay is disgusted. But

19:35

George reassures him that it's all

19:37

part of this master plan to

19:39

divide the workers between skilled tradesmen

19:42

and unskilled laborers and in many

19:44

cases, then dividing between the native

19:46

born against the immigrants. He's

19:49

just going to pit everyone against

19:51

each other. And Bill Henderson is

19:53

on to him. George shakes hands

19:55

with Henderson. They have their photographs

19:57

taken together. But Henderson says the

19:59

only reason... and he accepted this deal

20:01

was because George stood up for the workers

20:03

when they could have been fired upon. And

20:06

Tom, during all of this, George

20:08

mentions the railway strikes of 77.

20:10

What happened then? Well,

20:14

that strike was massive. It

20:16

was the nation's first large-scale

20:18

industrial strike, and it

20:20

lasted six weeks. It involved about

20:22

100,000 workers on strike across the

20:24

country. And during the

20:26

strike, in July, militia men opened

20:29

fire on strikers around the country,

20:31

killing more than 100 people. A

20:35

federal judge then ordered national

20:37

troops to protect the railroads,

20:40

and the fight went all the way to

20:42

the top, as President Hayes called

20:44

in the U.S. military to end the

20:46

strike. Well, that sounds

20:48

really dangerous and violent. And

20:51

very dramatic. And later we see

20:53

how angry the other industrial titans are

20:55

that George has gone out on his

20:57

own and made this deal. You know,

20:59

they feel as if they've been forced

21:02

into following suit. Yeah.

21:04

Well, it's clear that George Russell plays by

21:06

his own rules. Yes,

21:08

he does. And so now let's take

21:10

a trip downstairs, because Banister has organized

21:12

a meeting for Jack with Mr. Shubit,

21:15

who is the secretary of the Watchmakers

21:17

Association of the City of New York.

21:19

Or, you know, Tom, why don't you

21:22

give us the German name? I

21:25

think you mean Alicia the Urmacherwein der

21:27

Stappen, New York, which

21:29

had been founded in New York in 1866 by

21:31

German-born watchmakers. Yeah,

21:35

thanks for that, my Germans. A little rusty. But

21:39

anyway, Mr. Shubit is impressed

21:41

with Jack's work. And later

21:43

Jack receives a letter inviting him

21:45

to be a member of the

21:47

Association, which means, Tom, he can

21:49

proceed with his patent. I love

21:51

it when Jack gets mail. It's always,

21:53

you know, interesting. The mailman

21:55

does this little, this one's for

21:58

you move, you know, and Jack rips in. to

22:00

it like a kid opening up a college admission letter.

22:03

And he's thrilled, you know? And

22:05

he brings, let's face it, this episode of

22:08

Jolt of Good News. He does,

22:10

and there is another piece of

22:12

good news though. Over the road

22:14

at the Russells, Watson gets a

22:16

visitor, his daughter Flora McNeil. So

22:19

just to recap what we've seen this

22:21

season with Watson and the McNeals. After

22:24

Mr. Robert McNeil learnt that his

22:26

wife's father is now a valet,

22:28

he made Watson an offer

22:30

that he would pay him a

22:32

pension on the condition that Watson

22:34

moves to California and never tries

22:36

to see his daughter or grandchildren

22:38

ever again. Which, come on, let's face

22:41

it, it's terrible, right? Or

22:43

is it somehow generous? I

22:46

mean, it sounds terrible to me, although on

22:48

the other hand, I mean, it's an offer

22:51

to live rent free with a manservant in

22:53

San Francisco. So

22:55

yeah, Watson is conflicted. But

22:58

Church tells him to wait and

23:00

hear from his daughter in person, you know, just

23:03

to make sure that this is really what she

23:05

wants. And so finally Flora arrives

23:07

to speak to her father. And as

23:09

it turns out, she doesn't want him

23:11

to be sent away. She wants Watson

23:13

to be in her life and her

23:16

children's life. But she does request that

23:18

he leave his job at the Russells

23:20

to live as the retired banker, Mr.

23:22

Collier. Which is after all his real name.

23:25

But wow, what a whirlwind. And I

23:27

found this scene, you know, between father

23:29

and daughter to be quite poignant. I

23:31

mean, they were tucked down there in

23:34

Church's office, especially when she says to

23:36

him, we'll be all right, you

23:39

and me. You know, and then

23:41

Watson tells the others afterwards, it

23:43

seems I'm to have a life

23:45

after all. Yeah, that was sweet. You

23:48

saw a real sense of hope on

23:50

Watson's face. And this brings

23:52

to an end the whole mystery surrounding Watson.

23:54

I didn't know what to think of him

23:57

in season one. Remember when he was standing

23:59

outside Flora's? house just trying to catch

24:01

a glimpse of her. But this

24:03

dedication to her and the life

24:05

he's made for himself away from

24:08

her warmed me to him.

24:10

I was so relieved that Flora wants

24:12

her father in her life and

24:14

Borden and Mrs. Bruce are also very

24:16

happy for him. Yeah, it's been nice

24:18

watching their friendship develop, all three

24:21

of them. You know, I feel

24:24

like Watson is going to really be missed. Okay,

24:27

well, let's go to the Scots now

24:29

because they are continuing their push to

24:31

stop the black schools in New York

24:33

from being closed by the Board of

24:35

Education. Mr. Fortune is there

24:37

and reassures the crowd at their meeting

24:39

that the Globe will publish articles praising

24:42

the teachers, though they worry that won't

24:44

be enough. As Sarah Garnett points out,

24:46

to keep the schools open, they need

24:49

to increase the numbers of their pupils

24:51

and specifically, they need to involve white

24:53

students so that the board actually cares.

24:56

Some parents are upset about the

24:58

idea of desegregation, which from what I

25:00

understand, Tom, is true to what actually

25:03

happened. Yes, in real life, as

25:05

we mentioned last week, New York State

25:07

was preparing in the 1880s to

25:10

integrate these segregated black schools into

25:13

the city school system. And

25:16

this was controversial, even with black

25:18

parents, you know, some

25:20

of whom were wary of sending

25:22

their children to integrated schools. How

25:25

would their children be treated? Right? Maybe it

25:27

was safer to keep them

25:29

at a black school where they didn't

25:32

run the risk of being talked down

25:34

to or disrespected by their teachers or

25:36

their classmates. So, yeah, some

25:38

parents and teachers were asking if they could

25:40

at least preserve some

25:42

of these black schools, give

25:45

them an option. And in this

25:47

episode, there's a realization that they

25:49

may need to enlist the help

25:51

of white teachers, which gives Peggy

25:53

an idea, the idea of involving

25:55

Marion. Marion speaks at a board

25:57

meeting, lending her support to the

25:59

courts. and Mr. Patrick Ryan, an

26:01

unemployed teacher of Irish heritage, says

26:03

he would like to join them.

26:06

And then Tom, amongst all of this, Dorothy

26:08

remains concerned about Peggy's relationship with Mr.

26:11

Fortune, and Peggy is also a little

26:13

worried when they share a toast, declaring

26:15

down with the Board of Education, and

26:18

the chemistry between them is bubbling.

26:21

Yeah, they both clearly admire

26:24

each other, you know, professionally and

26:27

personally, obviously. And

26:29

when Peggy drops something on the ground, and

26:31

she's leaving, and voila, you know, the two

26:33

of them wind up in this very kissable

26:36

position, Peggy actually

26:39

squirms away. You know, I feel like

26:41

in this scene, Peggy could hear her mother's

26:43

voice, you know, and Peggy decides to

26:45

get herself out of there. Yeah,

26:47

she's tempted, but she resists. And

26:50

okay, Tom, I've been putting

26:52

off talking about the next storyline, but there's

26:55

no way around it. We have

26:58

to get to Reverend Luke Forte's

27:00

story, really the end of Reverend

27:02

Luke Forte's story. At

27:04

a luncheon celebrating Marion and

27:06

Dashill's engagement, Luke collapses, and

27:09

Agnes insists that they set up a bed

27:11

for him. And Agnes calls for

27:13

the family doctor, Dr. Lewis, who

27:16

admits to Ada and Agnes that

27:18

Luke is in really bad shape, and

27:21

shouldn't leave the Van Ryn house. When

27:24

Luke wakes up, he sees Agnes

27:26

by his side reading the Bible.

27:28

And here we have another touching

27:30

moment, right, between Agnes and Luke.

27:32

When Luke tells Agnes that he now

27:35

thinks that he was selfish to marry Ada

27:37

at his age, Agnes disagrees with

27:39

him. Yeah, she has really

27:41

changed her tune since their wedding announcement,

27:43

and has seen how much happiness and

27:46

love that Luke has brought to Ada's

27:48

life, although his life will

27:50

be short. He has changed Ada

27:52

forever. And he asks Agnes

27:54

to look after Ada, to which she replies,

27:57

Well, of course I'll help her. She's my

27:59

little friend. sister. I mean this is

28:01

a lovely scene. Agnes is

28:03

still the big sister. She

28:06

even tells Luke to go back to sleep. They

28:08

somehow find a way to have a little chuckle

28:11

together before Agnes pauses and

28:13

you see her take the whole thing

28:15

in. It's quite a moment. Later,

28:17

the church curate, Timothy, arrives to

28:19

pray with the whole group and

28:22

starts crying. He obviously

28:24

cares deeply about Luke and I was

28:26

wondering, you know, what is a curate?

28:29

I have no idea. What do they

28:31

do? Well, in the

28:33

Episcopal Church, a curate is an

28:35

assistant to the priest or the

28:37

rector. Remember that it was Timothy

28:39

who married Luke and Ada. And

28:41

so while everyone else is out partying

28:43

for the opening of the Brooklyn Bridge,

28:46

Ada keeps vigil at his bedside and

28:48

gives Luke permission to let go. Hi.

28:54

My darling, it's

28:58

all right if you go now.

29:05

I'll be fine. Being

29:08

loved by you has made me strong. Thank

29:12

you. For

29:15

what? For

29:18

loving me back. How

29:22

could I not? It's

29:26

so tender and sad. So

29:30

sad. Yeah, I still can't believe that

29:32

we're losing Luke. We only just got

29:34

him. Yeah, it's not what anybody expected,

29:36

including us, you know, the audience. But

29:40

it also underscores that these were volatile

29:42

times at all levels of

29:44

society. And as this incredibly sad

29:46

situation is playing out, we're also

29:48

watching the Brooklyn Bridge festivities, you

29:50

know, the parties and the fireworks

29:52

filling the sky and the exuberance

29:54

and hope and life, all

29:57

of it playing out at the same time. But

30:00

Ada is consumed with sadness, you know,

30:02

keeping watch over her dying husband. By

30:04

the way, in fact, there is a

30:06

very memorable moment when a shot of

30:08

the fireworks dissolves into

30:10

Luke's bedroom. You know, we

30:13

literally are going from

30:15

life to death in one second. It's

30:18

poetic. And, you know, the moment that

30:20

really kills me is when Ada wakes

30:22

up to find that Luke has passed

30:25

and she leaves the room collapsing into

30:27

Agnes's arms. No words are spoken.

30:30

Everyone is distressed, including Marion, who

30:32

bumps into Larry arriving home after

30:34

the Brooklyn Bridge party. He

30:36

offers to take Marion on a walk and, you

30:39

know, whenever I see these guys together, I

30:41

just think I like them. They

30:44

work. Yeah. And

30:46

here he is showing himself to be a really good friend.

30:49

It also struck me that this scene

30:51

starts with Dashal leaving, you

30:54

know, and with Marion holding everything

30:56

in. But when she

30:58

sees Larry and starts talking to him, she

31:00

opens up and she actually cries. They

31:02

have an honesty in their

31:05

friendship. It's a real bond. That's

31:08

so true. And there was one

31:10

member of the Van Rijn household who

31:12

missed both Luke's passing and the opening

31:14

of the bridge, Oscar.

31:17

He bumps into George Russell on the

31:19

street. He says he hopes things won't

31:22

be awkward between them. Oscar seems to

31:24

believe that he's shown up George Russell,

31:26

that the company he invested in has

31:28

outbid George's company. And perhaps,

31:30

you know, he's hoping that George would now

31:32

second guess turning Oscar down as a prospective

31:35

husband for Gladys. But

31:37

poor Oscar, George kind of looks at

31:39

him like he's crazy. He's

31:41

never heard of Castor Bridge Pacific Company

31:43

and says that if he hasn't heard

31:46

of them, they mustn't be

31:48

of any consequence. Oscar

31:50

immediately rushes over to Mr. Crowther's

31:52

office, barges in past a lonely

31:55

security guard, only to

31:57

find the office empty. spooky

32:00

Twilight Zone empty. Yeah,

32:02

and you know, very quickly Oscar realizes

32:04

that he's been had. And

32:06

when he goes to talk to more beaten,

32:09

she's disappeared. Oscar has

32:11

lost his entire family's

32:13

fortune. And Tom more beaten

32:15

was not who she said she was. She was

32:17

a con artist. Such a

32:20

good twist. This you know, this

32:22

was a wild couple of minutes

32:24

and quite a reveal. And it's

32:26

based on fact. What do you mean?

32:28

Well, Maude was based on a few famous

32:30

female con artists of the day. Most

32:34

notably on Cassie Chadwick, who

32:37

really conned a list of bankers

32:39

into giving her millions of dollars

32:41

because she very effectively played the

32:43

part of a glamorous society woman

32:47

who had a secret. She

32:49

was, she whispered, the illegitimate

32:51

daughter of Andrew Carnegie. And

32:53

also just like the rumors that

32:55

you know, Maude was Jay Gould's

32:57

daughter. Exactly. Yeah. I

33:00

just finished a new biography of Cassie that

33:02

came out last year called Greed in the

33:05

Gilded Age by William Elliot Hazelgrove. And

33:08

the author really underscores how

33:10

relatively easy it was for people to

33:13

construct brand new identities for themselves at

33:15

this time. No social media.

33:19

It had its benefits. Yes. People

33:22

were untrackable. And like Maude, Cassie

33:24

was brilliant. And she had this

33:27

alluring quality that seems to have

33:29

made men, in this case bankers,

33:32

believe her and write her checks, you

33:35

know, just believing that Carnegie's fortune was

33:37

always right behind her, which

33:39

of course it wasn't. Very similar

33:41

to here. And you know, Paul Oscar

33:43

is devastated. He visits John Adams and

33:45

he tells John that he'll report this

33:48

to the police, but that it's unlikely

33:50

he'll be able to prove that a

33:52

crime has been committed. So

33:54

do you think there would have been any

33:56

type of legal action that Oscar could have

33:58

taken to get it? his money back? Well

34:01

if Maud was anything like Cassie, that

34:04

money had probably been spent. Right,

34:06

and the Van Rinds have really

34:08

suffered. This is not long after

34:10

Lucas passed away and Oscar arrives

34:12

back home to deliver the news

34:14

to Agnes. He tells her that

34:16

he invested their money in a

34:18

company that doesn't exist and that

34:20

more beaten also doesn't exist. Agnes

34:23

stares at him in disbelief.

34:27

Go and get our money back. I can't. There's

34:31

no recourse. The money is gone and

34:33

so is she. How

34:35

much did you lose? Nearly

34:39

all of it. You've

34:45

just got a feel for Oscar here. He has

34:47

been duped and now he has to sit there

34:50

in front of Agnes and the rest of them.

34:52

I mean he is

34:54

humiliated. Yeah, I mean Oscar

34:56

made a poor decision but he liked Maud

34:58

and so essentially he lost all of his

35:00

money and his second

35:03

chance at marriage in one fell

35:05

swoop. It's brutal. And

35:07

I have to say I really liked the music

35:09

in this scene because it creeps

35:11

up and it feels haunting underneath

35:13

Oscar's reveal. It's just like building

35:16

and building to the end of

35:18

the episode. And what an

35:20

episode. I mean that was a

35:23

big, big episode. I have so

35:25

many questions for our special guests.

35:27

Oh, me too. So join us

35:30

here on the official Gilded Age

35:32

podcast as we chat to co-producer

35:34

Luke Harlan and the head of

35:36

hair, Sean Flanagan. Well,

35:53

Mr. Trotter, I will

35:55

see what I can do in terms of your membership. My

35:58

membership, sir. of the

36:00

Urmakavreinde Stadt, New York. You

36:03

clearly know more about clocks than many of our

36:05

members. Hooray

36:07

Jack! Let's give that moment

36:09

some tiny applause. Welcome

36:12

back to the official Gilded Age podcast.

36:14

I'm Alicia Malone with Tom Myers and

36:17

Tom Jack is now a member of

36:19

the the Urmak, the Urmak, I don't

36:21

know how do you say it, the

36:23

clock, the clockmaker. You mean

36:26

the Urmakavreinde Stadt, New York

36:28

Alicia? Yes very well done. Well

36:30

our guests will be able to fill

36:33

us in on the kind of research

36:35

that went into Jack's storyline plus the

36:37

Brooklyn Bridge scenes and all of the

36:39

incredible hair we see on the women

36:42

of the show. They are Luke Harlan

36:44

and Sean Flanagan. Luke is a director

36:46

and producer for film television and theatre

36:48

and as the co-producer of the Gilded

36:51

Age he's responsible for overseeing all of

36:53

the storylines and the team of historical

36:55

researchers and Sean is the head of

36:58

the hair department on the Gilded Age,

37:00

a very big job and he's been

37:02

working in the hair department of films

37:04

and television shows for over 20 years.

37:06

You may have seen his work on

37:08

Mad Men, Rock of Ages and The

37:10

Irishman among others. Luke

37:12

Harlan and Sean Flanagan, thank you so

37:15

much for joining us today. You're

37:17

welcome. Thank you for having us. I

37:19

get to do this with Luke, I'm so excited. And

37:24

Luke we just want to thank you for

37:26

being a friend to this show. I know

37:28

you and Tom have been in touch over

37:30

the past two seasons and you've really helped

37:33

us with a few of the historical details.

37:35

So I'm interested to learn from you about

37:37

your job as the co-producer, how you oversee

37:40

and keep track of all the storylines. I mean

37:42

what is that like on a show like this

37:44

that has so many stories? Yes,

37:47

there are, I can't even

37:49

count how many stories there are. How many

37:51

storylines, how many characters, how many characters intersect

37:54

and how many different stories come and go.

37:56

It is kind

37:58

of mind-boggling and baffling. the

38:00

kind of theme of my job is to make

38:03

sure that the story, every single

38:05

moment, is being told so that

38:09

there is the journey from beginning to end for

38:11

not just the entire story, not just the

38:14

arc of the season or the arc of the show itself, but

38:16

also each character storyline as

38:19

well. So that when we're in pre-production and

38:21

the writers are working and we're kind of

38:23

creating story, we make big charts and all

38:26

sorts of graphs and things that really kind of show

38:29

you or show us kind of, oh,

38:31

this is where we need to be at this point or at

38:33

the end or this is where this is going. And then when

38:36

we're actually shooting, it's about

38:38

every single take, every shot to make sure

38:40

that what's happening in that moment is actually

38:42

telling that greater story. And

38:44

then in post-production, it's about making

38:47

sure that that full arc of the thing is

38:49

being told all the time. It's especially true in

38:52

season two when there's so many storylines like Oscar

38:54

and Maude. And it's like we have to be

38:56

so careful about what information is given at what

38:58

time so that no one gets ahead of it.

39:01

There's also a lot of history

39:03

in these stories too. So how

39:06

do you supervise all of the

39:08

historical research? Well,

39:10

we have an amazing team

39:12

of expert historians. And

39:15

if we see as we're working with Julian

39:17

and Sonia on kind of storylines and what

39:19

we want to talk about, different

39:22

events that are happening during the year that we're working on this,

39:24

then I can go to our researchers and say, hey,

39:27

can we get some more information about, say, the Brooklyn Bridge?

39:30

And then those researchers who are amazing come

39:32

back with loads of information, first

39:34

source material stuff, stuff that's

39:36

like amazing information for us

39:38

to have, especially for Julian to look

39:41

at. And from that material

39:43

that our researchers are able to gather

39:45

for us, that we can

39:47

figure out where the entertainment is. The

39:50

drama. The drama, exactly. What inside

39:52

of this real story of these real

39:54

people, what can we take out that

39:56

actually is the meat of that drama, right? you

40:00

in here, you are the head

40:02

of hair for the show. So for people

40:04

who are not familiar with that role, could

40:07

you tell us more about your

40:09

role on the Gilded Age? This

40:11

job was kind of a gift and it's like my

40:13

role basically is to

40:16

facilitate the design process

40:18

that Michael, our director wants, Julian wants, and

40:21

as well as the producers in the stories.

40:23

I basically oversee the design

40:25

process. I literally will pull

40:28

reference photos. I work with Kasia and Patrick,

40:30

our amazing costume department, who usually are ahead

40:32

of the game with me as far as

40:35

design process. So I take my lead a

40:37

lot from where the costumes are

40:39

going, which entail they are

40:41

working a lot more with

40:43

Michael and the story because they're having

40:46

to produce the look prior

40:48

to us coming in. So

40:51

with my team, I generally will give

40:53

them a guideline of what the design

40:55

process or what I see the show

40:57

looking like. And I let

40:59

my team like Christine, Tim, Jonathan, my

41:01

main team, if I didn't have those

41:03

people, I wouldn't have the show. This

41:06

job, we all were very cohesive and became

41:08

a very tight unit. And I think that's

41:10

what the magic of the show was for

41:12

us. Everyone got to put their

41:14

artistry on it, but we kept it within

41:16

a frame line. So everyone kind of understood

41:18

the vision. And we were allowed, we allowed

41:20

everyone to do their craft. And once we

41:23

understood each other's language, they

41:25

let us run. Well, it's interesting because

41:27

Luke was just talking about doing all

41:29

this historical research. So you and your

41:31

team are also doing all of this

41:34

research and you're pulling all these ideas

41:36

together. And then are you

41:38

like sketching something and presenting the director

41:40

with different ideas of what the characters

41:42

could look like? Not generally,

41:44

you know, there's historical references that will

41:46

pop up. So we'll actually have images

41:49

sometimes of these characters, which

41:51

I would always run into Luke's office sometimes. And he'll

41:53

pull out a book and he'll be like, Oh, yeah,

41:55

here's this storyline. Here's this. So this is where this

41:57

character comes from. But I went to a lot of

41:59

Harper's Bazaar magazine. magazines, all the old magazines

42:01

from the time, and there were these beautiful

42:03

pencil sketches of like the costumes and the

42:05

hair, and they're all pencil sketches. So all

42:08

those magazines had such a beautiful sculpture

42:10

and style to them. So they may

42:12

not be completely accurate to what people

42:14

think the period is, but we actually

42:16

have the references from the costume sketches

42:18

and fashion images, and we went that

42:20

direction, which made it a lot more

42:22

glamorous, which was really, really fun for

42:24

our crew. And so much

42:26

fun for all of us to watch.

42:29

I mean, there's so many impressive, intricate

42:31

hairstyles for the women of the Gilded

42:33

Age. And what about wigs?

42:36

How do you decide who gets a wig? Well,

42:38

the women all get wigs mostly because

42:41

I need the length. Like in episode

42:43

seven with Mrs. Roebling, her hairstyle is

42:45

her hair, but there's also a ton

42:47

of pieces that I colored

42:49

to match her own hair. So it's her hair incorporated

42:51

with a lot of pieces to give me the volume

42:53

and length. So all

42:55

the women need to have some sort of length or pieces

42:58

put on because a lot of

43:00

women in this period had hair switches or

43:02

braids or extra hair that they would build

43:04

into their hairstyle. So that's where the

43:06

size and the volume and the shape comes from. We're

43:09

all storytellers, you know, every single person

43:11

on this show. And so

43:13

I love watching Sean work because there's ways

43:15

that hair tells the story. Like

43:17

the way that women show their

43:19

hair in public says something about themselves and

43:22

says something about what they're trying to make

43:24

society feel about them. What

43:27

Christine, like my assistant, she's my right hand. I couldn't

43:29

do this job without her. What she

43:31

does with Carrie's hair, I just love. I

43:33

mean, it's like we've originally, we've said, let's

43:35

play with Carrie's hair being a little more

43:37

sophisticated, not so overly curled in

43:40

style. So she's got more of a wave

43:42

to it. We kept Carrie much more smooth

43:44

and sophisticated feeling compared to the Van Rinds

43:46

because they're much more

43:48

original to the period. So we've got

43:50

more texture and curl. So it just kind of

43:53

separated that group. So

43:55

there's those little tweaks that we play with

43:57

in the design process that just naturally develops

43:59

because that we get to know the characters, you get to

44:01

know the story. What you mentioned,

44:03

Carrie Kuhn, Bertha, and I'm thinking of

44:06

the scene in this episode,

44:08

in episode seven, where Bertha and George are

44:11

quite intimate. It's late at

44:13

night, she's in her nightgown, they're kissing

44:15

and cuddling. She's talking about striking workers

44:17

in Pittsburgh, but it's intimate. Tom,

44:19

that's a really unique example because that

44:22

scene actually wasn't originally supposed to be

44:24

in the bedroom at night. And

44:26

it was due to just logistical scheduling

44:29

issues and likely because of COVID. And so

44:31

if I remember correctly, that scene was actually

44:33

supposed to be kind of an evening scene

44:35

in the drawing room, but because we couldn't

44:37

have that set that day, we moved it

44:39

tonight in her bedroom. And actually, now that

44:41

I watch it, I'm like, that scene should

44:43

always hit. Like that is that scene now.

44:46

But it speaks to the flexibility and collaboration

44:48

on set that like, in last minute, we

44:50

were able to say, this has to move

44:53

here. And we all gather forces and figure

44:55

out how to make it work.

44:57

And not just make it work, but

44:59

now you can see how that challenge,

45:02

that problem in quotations actually created something

45:04

that I think works so much better

45:06

and really lets us in to Bertha's

45:08

vulnerability. Like, we

45:11

don't always get to see Bertha being vulnerable.

45:13

And it's really wonderful when we are able

45:15

to. Well, Luke,

45:17

in this episode, number seven, obviously, there's so

45:19

much history in it. But I

45:21

just want to talk about the big

45:23

moment that this has all been leading up to

45:26

the opening celebration of the Brooklyn Bridge. And it's

45:28

a scene that is interesting because it seems

45:30

like it touches nearly all of the

45:33

other characters and storylines at that moment.

45:35

Can you tell us what went into

45:37

crafting that storyline and why it's important

45:39

to you? Yeah.

45:42

And you talk about this moment when kind

45:44

of all the storylines converge. And that's something

45:46

that we try to look out for whenever

45:49

we can. You remember in season one,

45:51

there was a lighting ceremony, Thomas

45:53

Edison. That was when so many storylines converged.

45:56

And it's also, logistically, it's just a moment

45:58

when we can actually... have

46:00

a lot of characters together. It

46:03

didn't exactly work in the same way

46:05

for the Brooklyn Bridge because it's fractured. And

46:07

so that becomes really important storytelling-wise because

46:10

not only does it link all our characters

46:12

up, but it also grounds

46:15

us in a certain moment in time and

46:17

not a fictional moment. This was a real

46:20

event. And the opening of the

46:22

Brooklyn Bridge, it was the biggest celebration New York

46:24

had ever seen, literally. There were, I

46:26

mean, hundreds of thousands of people that were

46:29

arriving by boat, by train, by everything

46:31

into the city. And there was so jam-packed that

46:33

day that you could not move around. The

46:36

accounts of the river on that day were that there were so many

46:38

boats that no one could move. And it

46:40

was just, this was the

46:42

moment of New York City. And

46:45

so it felt so right to us that this was

46:47

going to be kind of a moment that, of course,

46:49

everything has to stop because

46:52

everybody in the world, it seems,

46:54

was watching the bridge that day.

46:57

And so when we talk about kind

46:59

of grabbing everything out and getting all

47:01

these storylines to converge in this moment, it

47:03

does, you have to kind of work backwards

47:05

almost, right? If we're at the end of

47:07

episode seven and we want everyone to be

47:09

there at the same time, then that means, okay,

47:12

we have to make sure that Oscar

47:14

can't get a cab on that day, and

47:16

that works into his storyline. We have to

47:18

make sure that Peggy's going to Brooklyn because

47:20

there's a rooftop party, but it's not just,

47:22

we can't just say, we need

47:24

to have a rooftop party. It's like, why?

47:26

It's not just because of the bridge, but

47:28

also because Peggy needs to reconnect with her

47:30

parents. And then same thing with downstairs.

47:33

You know, this is the moment when

47:35

Borden is, we're

47:37

trying to like develop this relationship

47:39

a little bit more. And so we

47:42

move that up to the roof and all of these things,

47:45

it's fun, right? Because there's individual

47:47

story reasons to get everybody

47:49

to converge on a certain moment. And then there's

47:51

the greater story reason of that

47:53

this is, a New York

47:55

City moment. and

48:01

Reverend Forte. Yeah. Julian wanted

48:03

to have these things happen

48:05

simultaneously. And it's, it actually,

48:07

when I'm watching the episode,

48:09

I kind of, I'm moved

48:11

so deeply at Luke's death

48:14

because it's coinciding exactly with

48:16

this huge celebration. That juxtaposition

48:18

actually makes it hurt more.

48:21

That scene with Agnes and

48:23

Ada, when she comes out of the room,

48:25

it just, it gives me the chill still

48:27

because it's like watching them live, doing it.

48:30

There were crew people crying, just because you

48:32

become so attached to the characters and

48:35

you forget the cast is so brilliant

48:37

because they can suck you right into the character.

48:39

And that's what I find so amazing about watching

48:41

some of these actors. And they're no words. Yeah.

48:43

She doesn't even panic. They break my heart. No,

48:45

nothing. Yeah, because Agnes is such

48:47

a cold woman, but you really, she isn't.

48:49

There's a softness to Agnes, which I just

48:52

find beautiful. I'm interested to

48:54

hear about creating the

48:56

look of Mrs. Astor and her hair.

48:59

What went into that? Because I believe that

49:01

she had a wig that was quite famous.

49:03

I don't know if it was at this time. She

49:05

was wigged, but she'll, I mean, also colored hair.

49:07

She colored her hair very dark. We've got photos

49:09

of Mrs. Astor. So we do know that that's

49:12

accurate. Donna is such

49:14

fun because she's very particular what she likes and she's

49:17

got an idea what she likes. And so it kind

49:19

of takes some of the pressure off of us trying

49:21

to make the actor happy because we know what she

49:23

wants. And it's accurate because it looks

49:25

so great on her with the curls and the

49:27

tight front. And that's something we don't change on

49:29

her. And it just elevates her level to a

49:31

little bit more polish and class. We just kept

49:33

her very, very clean because we're doing

49:35

a drama and entertainment piece. We want to make

49:38

it look beautiful. And so we just cleaned everything

49:40

up. We took the style and just polished it

49:42

all. And for each of the characters, do

49:44

you have a series of wigs

49:46

already set in hairstyles or

49:48

do you recreate new every time?

49:50

The wigs are always set the night before.

49:53

There's a whole process of cleaning the lace

49:55

and getting it all set. But

49:57

because the styles are so tight.

50:00

to the side of the head. We, I

50:02

personally found it very difficult to get

50:04

that really tight, clean line without

50:06

actually dressing the hair on the actress every day.

50:08

So we'd get the wig prepped, we'd get the

50:10

actor's hair wrapped up tight under a wig cap.

50:12

I would send them off to makeup, makeup would

50:14

do their magic, they'd come back to me, the

50:16

wig would go on, and I would probably spend

50:18

another 20 to 30 minutes with each

50:20

character redressing the hair. So

50:23

we put the hair up every single day. Yeah,

50:25

there was a great interview with Morgan

50:27

Spector who said during the first

50:29

season, he was saying

50:32

like, I usually hate my face, but Sean

50:34

Flanagan and Nikki Lederman, the makeup department head

50:36

you mentioned, have created a look for this

50:38

guy that makes me feel at home. So

50:41

what is it like for you to

50:43

see these actors transform into their characters

50:45

once they have everything set, the costumes,

50:47

the hair and the makeup? The

50:50

first couple of times you put a wig

50:52

on an actor and especially this period, they're

50:54

so dressed up, you look at them in

50:56

their street clothes and think, oh, what

50:59

have I done? And

51:01

then they get to the costume and then they get

51:03

on the set and then you're like, wow, it works.

51:06

And that's what I think has been really fun

51:08

about this job. Like Christine Baranski, God love her.

51:10

She's a character, she'll come in, she'll

51:13

get her hair prepped, she is a dream to work

51:15

with, she sits down, she doesn't bother, she looks up,

51:17

she's just like, wow, this is fun. And

51:19

then she'll pop on her aviator

51:21

glasses and she'll walk out in her cool little

51:23

clothes, and you're like, oh my gosh, the same

51:26

thing with Louisa. She decided to color her black,

51:28

so almost dark, dark brown. And

51:30

of course, I'm like, okay, you're a blonde, I got a wig, how

51:32

am I gonna hide this? But when you

51:34

start doing it, then it's just hysterical to watch

51:36

them in period, in contemporary and you're like, okay,

51:39

this is gonna be fun. But once they get

51:41

into their costume and on set, it

51:43

all just magically just becomes it. I

51:47

mean, it's just fun to watch. Another

51:49

story that we've been following for

51:51

weeks now is this developing romance

51:53

between Oscar van Rijn and Mod

51:55

Beaton, which he mentioned before. episode,

52:01

you know, from the audience's perspective, we

52:03

almost feel as if we'd have we've

52:05

had the rug pulled from under our

52:07

feet, right? We have been had by

52:09

Maude. Can you

52:11

tell us about constructing that that

52:13

storyline and how you sort of

52:15

baited us along over many, many

52:17

episodes here? A

52:21

team effort. I mean, it's even just you

52:23

saying right now that it feels like you

52:25

had the rug pulled out and that you've

52:27

been had makes me so happy because

52:29

so much work right from from

52:32

so many people goes

52:34

into making sure that that moment

52:36

will land because what will

52:39

happen hopefully is the audience gets to this

52:41

spot. This happens. We feel this

52:43

way. And then maybe we go back and

52:45

watch again all the interactions with

52:47

Maude beaten. And the

52:50

fun of that will be to see, oh, right.

52:52

Maude never did come out of

52:54

that house. Yeah, she always waits out the

52:56

front. Yeah. Or like, you

52:58

know, the little hints about where's Maude

53:00

right now? She's oh, she's visiting a

53:03

sick aunt in Newport or something like

53:05

this. Every single moment and

53:07

every single line and every single

53:09

look really from the actor Nicole

53:11

too is calculated to make

53:14

sure that the story

53:16

being told up until this moment is that

53:18

Oscar is going to take this woman for

53:20

a ride. And that's going

53:22

to be that's going to be what it is. It's going

53:25

to be Oscar being Oscar. And so there

53:27

was a lot of moments where like David

53:29

Crockett and Michael Engler and I and Julian

53:31

and others would sit, be kind of be

53:33

together and try to literally

53:36

go through every single one of

53:38

these moments and think, wait, are

53:40

we giving anything away here? Should we

53:42

actually move these scenes into

53:45

different spots? Or should this actually go

53:47

to episode four that so that when

53:49

we get to this moment in episode

53:51

seven, no one in the audience hopefully,

53:53

right, is ahead that no

53:55

one suspects that there's not something that's

53:57

going to get in the way of this moment of the rug.

54:00

being pulled out because that's where

54:02

the joy of this storyline

54:04

is. We've just been sort of led

54:07

along for several episodes that Sheila,

54:09

they say that she's Jay Gould's

54:11

illegitimate daughter. It's like we're following

54:13

that and then you do something

54:15

completely different with her. There's

54:17

quite a few different examples of con

54:20

artists that we looked at. The one

54:22

particularly was a woman who went by

54:24

Cassie Chadwick and the whole

54:26

idea of being, of posing

54:29

as the illegitimate daughter of a rich

54:32

robber baron was her thing.

54:34

Of Andrew Carnegie. Yeah, Alicia and I

54:36

were just talking about Cassie and

54:39

the amazing parallels here. So it was

54:41

Cassie then a direct inspiration for Moll.

54:45

Yeah, absolutely. Some people call it the

54:47

greatest bank heist in all of history.

54:50

Our day and age it would be hundreds of millions of dollars that

54:52

she got. And so it's

54:55

fun to bring in this person into our story.

54:57

Even if we don't follow that story along and

54:59

know what happened, we'll never know what happens to

55:01

Mon Beaton. Does she come back? But

55:03

to have that character pop into our

55:06

story and pop out and then the

55:08

audience, if they want to, can go

55:11

look into this woman or think more about what

55:13

that is. But it's fun to kind of have

55:16

these real people or these people based on real

55:18

people infuse the story a

55:20

bit. Yeah, that's true. And

55:22

it's so fun to learn about

55:25

the real history behind these characters.

55:27

I'm also enjoying Jack's storyline this

55:29

season. He's becoming an inventor. And

55:32

I know that, Luke, you do a

55:34

lot of research yourself. So what went

55:36

into making that storyline believable? Yeah,

55:38

I really took this one on because I

55:41

am a nerd. So proclaim.

55:44

And you know, Julian originally

55:46

had the idea of a rags to

55:48

riches story for Jack. And

55:50

that really, we all got really excited about that.

55:53

And then the research team came back with a

55:55

lot of ideas of just different

55:57

historical examples of rags to riches. And there was

55:59

all sorts of things. bicycles and any

56:01

other kind of invention. But the one

56:04

that Julian and all of us really

56:06

found exciting was this clock

56:08

idea that Jack could actually

56:11

invent something. And so I got

56:14

connected with the Horalogical Society

56:16

of New York, which Julian

56:19

actually put into the script, the

56:21

Ermacher Herinderstadt. And

56:24

so I asked some of the experts

56:27

there, like what's actually a historical example

56:29

of something that someone like Jack could

56:31

have created. So we found an example

56:33

in history of this escape wheel. It

56:35

was something that someone like

56:38

Jack, if Jack, say,

56:40

was exceptionally brilliant at this

56:42

without even knowing it, right,

56:44

then that's what the story becomes is that Jack

56:46

has this innate ability that he

56:48

didn't know that no one knew about. And that's

56:50

what's so beautiful about it is that

56:53

he kind of he kind of on accident comes up

56:55

with this. But in order

56:57

for us to really kind of figure

56:59

out what that actually meant, the actor

57:01

Ben, Alders and I got to actually

57:03

go to a clockmaking class at the

57:06

Horalogical Society. We sat there together, the

57:08

two of us and actually put a

57:10

clock together. Wow. So that we could

57:12

understand what actually an escape wheel

57:14

is. It's really not easy to understand unless

57:16

you're sitting there putting one together and really

57:18

trying to understand what makes a clock tick.

57:21

Literally, yeah. Literally. And so then when

57:23

we're on set, and we're doing that

57:26

scene, we're not guessing at anything. This

57:28

is the actual thing. I geek out

57:30

about it. Yeah, I would

57:32

too. And you know, earlier,

57:34

Tom and I were talking about the

57:36

sad death of Luke Forte, which I

57:38

definitely did not want to happen. Luke,

57:41

how did you work with the producers

57:43

and the writers to introduce his illness

57:46

without giving anything away? Right. It's

57:48

another one of those things you

57:50

have to be careful about. Because I remember

57:52

again, sitting down with everyone and kind

57:54

of mapping this out. I think part of it

57:57

was making sure that in every episode is at

57:59

least And

58:01

that, as you go, there's not only more of

58:03

it, but it gets more intense. So

58:06

the first episode, it might be very mild

58:08

lower back pain. Then it's, you

58:10

know, oh, I hard to sit down. And then

58:13

it's, oh, when I carried Ada over the threshold,

58:15

that really hurt. Oh, you should go see

58:17

a doctor about it. No, no, no, it's nothing. And

58:19

then the next episode it's, okay, I saw a doctor.

58:22

He said it was nothing. And it's so that we

58:24

keep, we keep that story moving all

58:26

the time. And we keep that concern moving all the

58:28

time. But we also are

58:31

showing the characters perspective on it. Luke

58:33

thinks it's not a big deal, but Ada is

58:35

always like pushing a little harder because Ada might

58:38

have a sense that there's something more there. Okay.

58:41

Well, we have to talk about all

58:43

the opera drama. Okay. This whole season

58:45

is building to a battle

58:48

between Bertha and Mrs. Astor over these

58:50

two opera houses. No

58:52

spoilers, please. But can you just

58:54

talk about your research into the

58:56

opera wars? What drew you to

58:58

this particular conflict? That's all

59:00

Julian when it comes to this wanting to set up

59:02

the opera war as a big thing

59:05

for season two. And you might

59:07

remember from season one, I think it's

59:09

in episode six maybe, when it's just

59:11

Agnes and Ada and others sitting around

59:13

and someone just says, oh, what about

59:15

the opera war? Right. And

59:18

everyone throws it off and kind of says, oh,

59:20

that's not going to be a big deal. That

59:22

was a Julian set up in season one for

59:24

a season two. And so

59:26

it's always been on his mind. And

59:29

so when we started all doing

59:31

research and gathering research for season two,

59:33

what the research team and I found

59:35

that was really exciting when we found

59:38

it was that

59:40

these two opera houses opened on the

59:42

same night. And that

59:45

just felt like one of those things you find

59:47

in research that's like, it's a guess. What? Are

59:49

you serious? That's real.

59:53

Too good to be true. And

59:55

then something I take that information and I give it to you

59:57

and it's like here, Julian, what did you

59:59

know this? And he's like, oh my goodness. And

1:00:02

so of course that it just seems

1:00:04

like, of course, that becomes the thing that becomes

1:00:07

the way that you set these two

1:00:09

sides up against each other is it's

1:00:11

not just about, it's not

1:00:13

just about an opera house, if it's going to succeed

1:00:15

or not. It becomes about what side are you going

1:00:17

to be on? And

1:00:19

that's good. And

1:00:21

that's good storytelling. Well, this has

1:00:23

been really fascinating. So Lou Carlin and

1:00:25

Sean Flanagan, thank you both for your

1:00:28

time. Thank you. Thank you. Tom,

1:00:34

that was so interesting. Can

1:00:36

you imagine Lou Carlin and

1:00:38

Ben Arliss attending a clockmaking

1:00:40

class? How cool. They

1:00:43

really got deeply into their research, you know, and

1:00:45

I'm just thinking of all of those plot lines

1:00:47

that Luke and his colleagues were staying on top

1:00:49

of and how to make them all converge on

1:00:51

this one night that we saw in the show.

1:00:54

Not to mention all the hair. All

1:00:56

the hair. I mean, Sean talking about how he

1:00:58

first saw the wigs with the cars while they're

1:01:01

wearing their modern clothes and how he was worried

1:01:03

that it wouldn't actually work. But of course, once

1:01:05

you get them in the costume and the makeup

1:01:07

and on the sets, it's beautiful.

1:01:09

Absolutely. As is everything that you can

1:01:12

see in the new episodes of the

1:01:14

HBO original series, The Gilded Age, Sunday

1:01:16

on Macs. And then be

1:01:18

sure you tune into our podcast, also

1:01:21

available on Macs or wherever you get your

1:01:23

podcasts. Thanks for listening.

1:01:25

Bye, everyone. This

1:01:36

has been the official Gilded Age

1:01:38

podcast, written, hosted and produced by

1:01:40

Alicia Malone and me, Tom Myers.

1:01:43

Our supervising producer is Andrew

1:01:45

Pemberton Fowler. Our editor

1:01:47

is Trey Booty with special

1:01:49

thanks to Michael Gluckstadt and

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Sivan Slater from HBO and

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the Gilded Age in New York City,

1:02:30

I invite you to check out

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my podcast, The Bowery Boys, co-hosted

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with Greg Young. On

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The Bowery Boys, we talk about

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Gilded Age society and culture, as

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well as architecture, immigration, politics

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and the events that shape

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the city. That's The Bowery

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Boys. Listen wherever you get

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podcasts.