0:02

I'm Jason Palmer, one of the

0:04

hosts of The Intelligence, The Economist's

0:06

daily current affairs podcast. The

0:08

Economist's award-winning shows make sense of

0:10

what matters. From our

0:12

special series on China's president to

0:15

our weekly podcasts on business, technology,

0:17

and American politics, our journalists

0:19

provide fair, in-depth reporting on the

0:21

events shaping the world. Search

0:24

for Economist Podcasts Plus and sign

0:26

up to our free one-month trial. The

0:30

holidays start here at Kroger with a

0:32

variety of options to celebrate traditions old

0:35

and new. You could do

0:37

a classic herb-roasted turkey or spice it up

0:39

and make turkey tacos. Serve

0:41

up a go-to shrimp cocktail or

0:43

use Simple Truth wild-caught shrimp for

0:45

your first Cajun risotto. Make

0:47

creamy mac and cheese or a spinach

0:50

artichoke fondue from our selection of Murray's

0:52

cheese. No matter how you shop, Kroger

0:54

has all the freshest ingredients to embrace

0:57

all your holiday traditions. Kroger, fresh for

0:59

everyone. The

1:28

season of the Academy of Music is drawing

1:30

to a close. Welcome

1:35

back to the official Gilded Age

1:37

podcast for one final time this

1:39

season. I'm Alicia Malone from Turner

1:41

Classic Movies, joined by my co-host Tom

1:43

Myers from the Bowery Boys podcast. And

1:45

Tom, I'm really going to miss our

1:47

weekly chats, you know, where I grill

1:50

you about labor strikes and what really

1:52

happened during the opera war. Don't

1:54

worry, Alicia. Labor strikes aren't going anywhere. And

1:57

we will be talking extensively. about

2:00

that opera war in today's episode.

2:02

Hello everyone, yes this is the

2:05

season two finale of the official

2:07

Gilded Age podcast and it's

2:09

going to be a biggie. Now last

2:11

week we joined President Arthur at the

2:13

opening of the Brooklyn Bridge and this

2:15

week we'll be duking it

2:18

out in the opera wars and separating

2:20

fact from fiction around the opening of

2:22

the Metropolitan Opera and the downfall of

2:25

the Academy of Music. Flass

2:27

will be asking all of our

2:29

burning questions about the entire second

2:31

season of the Gilded Age to

2:33

the executive producer Gareth Neehme. Unfortunately

2:36

our Marian, she learns through this as

2:38

she learned in the first season that

2:40

there is a difference between pragmatic relationships

2:43

and true love and she knows that

2:45

she doesn't love him increasingly, she knows

2:47

that he doesn't love her, he loves

2:49

his late wife and she is I

2:51

think by the end of the second

2:53

season a wiser more sophisticated and romantically

2:55

mature woman than a few

2:58

episodes earlier. This is

3:00

season two episode eight in

3:03

terms of winning and losing written

3:05

by Julian Fellowes and directed by

3:07

Michael Engleman. And

3:17

we begin with high drama at the

3:20

Russells. Bertha opens her mail and reads

3:22

that Mrs Asta has indeed stolen her

3:24

duke and plans to bring him to

3:26

the opening of the Academy of Music

3:28

which would be a huge coup for

3:31

Mrs Asta and that opera house. Huge

3:33

coup. Bertha lets out a she's

3:36

a thief and runs down the

3:38

hall to tell George she's stolen

3:40

my duke. Now Alicia where

3:43

have we heard that line before? Oh that

3:45

would be one Mrs Winterton who

3:47

Bertha had stolen him from in the first

3:49

place although you know Tom no one can

3:52

top Mrs Winterton on the delivery of my

3:55

duke. That witch.

3:57

While running up a staircase that's true. I'm

4:00

starting to think that the Duke enjoys

4:02

all of these divas fighting over him.

4:05

And to make matters worse, Gilbert,

4:07

the Met director, a few moments

4:09

later, can hardly contain

4:11

his glee, telling Bertha that

4:13

he's leaked out the name of their

4:15

special guest for opening night and

4:18

the tickets have gone in a flash. That

4:20

means the pressure is really on Bertha

4:23

to deliver the Duke because the people

4:25

will go wherever they think the Duke

4:27

is going. Which I love the thought

4:29

of New York opera goers all just glued

4:31

to the latest news about which opera house

4:34

the Duke will be attending. And

4:36

before you ask, no, this did

4:39

not happen on opening night in 1883. This

4:42

was created for the show. Will he

4:45

be at the Academy or at the Met? The

4:47

Met, as Agnes says, is that

4:50

what we have to call the

4:52

Metropolitan? Which reminds me, Tom,

4:54

I did want to begin all of this

4:56

by asking you about the Met because we've

4:59

talked about how it was organized

5:01

and funded. But where was it

5:03

back in 1883? Because

5:05

it wasn't where it currently stands, which

5:07

is the place now known as Lincoln

5:10

Center. The original Met

5:12

was constructed between 39th and 40th

5:14

on the western side of Broadway,

5:17

which was just a little bit north of

5:20

the theater scene, which at the time was

5:22

around Madison Square and Herald Square. And

5:25

the Met's exterior was designed

5:27

in the Italian Renaissance style

5:29

and just covered in terracotta

5:31

and figurines and yellow

5:34

brick, which along with its

5:36

mammoth size gave

5:39

the Met the not so nice nickname,

5:41

the quote, yellow brick brewery.

5:44

That's not flattering at all. And

5:46

we've heard about the auditorium

5:49

with it's got the three

5:51

levels of boxes. Right.

5:54

Yeah, the Met claimed that in

5:56

terms of surface area, this audience

5:58

room was larger than any other

6:00

opera house in the world. And

6:02

in fact, as we mentioned before, it

6:04

had really been designed to show off

6:07

the audience, right? Especially those in the

6:09

three tiers of boxes. Yeah,

6:11

because really they were part of the

6:13

performance. They were, yeah. And

6:15

the auditorium took up so much of the

6:18

block, that this left very

6:20

little room for backstage or for the

6:22

wings. And those are

6:24

pretty important for operas, especially operas

6:26

with lots of sets. So pretty

6:29

much from the beginning, the Met

6:31

started leaving scenery in the streets

6:33

around the opera house, sometimes for

6:35

hours, even in the rain and

6:37

snow. There was also very

6:39

little rehearsal space. The chorus sometimes

6:41

had to rehearse downstairs in cherries,

6:43

which was the restaurant located inside

6:46

the opera house. Oh boy, is

6:49

all of that why it had to move to a

6:51

new space? Eventually, yes. It

6:53

was beautiful, but outdated. And

6:55

even after a 1906 renovation,

6:58

it just didn't work. So they looked

7:00

for a new home for decades. And

7:02

finally in the 1950s, the

7:05

Met joined forces with the New York Philharmonic

7:07

and the New York City Opera and the

7:09

New York City Ballet in the

7:12

creation of Lincoln Center, located in

7:14

the West 60s between Columbus and

7:16

Amsterdam avenues. And ground was broken

7:18

in 1959. And the Met

7:20

had its final performance in the old opera

7:23

house in 1966. And

7:25

then moved uptown to Lincoln Center that

7:27

fall. And what happened to the old

7:29

opera house? You know, the opera house we see

7:31

in the show. Well, sadly the year after

7:34

the Met moved uptown in 1967, the

7:37

old building was demolished and it was

7:39

replaced by the huge office tower that

7:41

still stands there today. Well,

7:44

back in this episode, Bertha discovers

7:46

exactly who convinced the Duke to

7:48

go to the academy, Ward

7:51

McAllister. Not a huge

7:53

shock because as he reminds Bertha, he's

7:55

always going to be loyal to Mrs.

7:57

Astor. Bertha asks him how much...

8:00

Duke cost to buy. And Tom Ward replies

8:02

that Mrs. Astor is giving him more than

8:04

money that she will open New York to

8:06

the Duke and you know the whole of

8:08

America. Yeah I was struck by how Ward

8:11

kind of slapped back at Bertha in this scene.

8:13

It just kind of put her in her place you know with a

8:16

little I've been at this

8:18

game rather longer than you line you know

8:20

and then and basically tells her this is

8:22

what you'll do you will take a box

8:25

at the academy. Something about

8:27

it was almost menacing you

8:29

know we're almost like mansplaining.

8:32

100% mansplaining or perhaps

8:34

Ward-splaining. Ward-splaining

8:37

yes. And

8:40

then George refuses to give more money

8:42

to the Met so you know that

8:44

leaves Bertha thinking about what she can

8:47

offer the Duke beyond money. More

8:49

on that in a minute. Meanwhile

8:52

Mamie Fish says that the newspapers

8:54

are divided on whether the Duke

8:56

will attend the Met or the

8:58

Academy. And Tom first things first

9:00

so we know that this particular

9:02

Duke was fictional right? Yes but

9:04

this is tapping into a very real

9:06

story. Royalty from the old

9:08

world did come to America

9:11

often looking for a bride with a fortune

9:13

to help them pay for their old estates

9:15

back home. And these brides by

9:18

the way were sometimes

9:20

derisively referred to as

9:22

dollar princesses. And

9:24

more about that in a minute.

9:26

Yeah we also know that

9:29

both opera houses did really open on

9:31

the same night. So was there speculation

9:33

in the press about which house would

9:35

win? Well there was chatter

9:38

about this in the society pages.

9:40

For example the Tribune published an

9:42

article the day before the opening

9:44

that states quote the burden of

9:46

society's talk during last week related

9:48

to the opera season. Where

9:51

to go is this your quite

9:53

as troublesome a question as what to wear.

9:57

So yeah there you have it. It was real. What

9:59

a burden. Which opera house to

10:01

attend? Where will I wear my

10:03

diamonds? Too many

10:05

choices. But then the

10:07

article continues to describe the rivalry

10:09

is being chiefly between the managers

10:12

of these opera houses. And yet

10:14

it says between the boxholders, things

10:17

are quote, quite friendly, which

10:19

isn't really what we see here. Definitely

10:21

not. And it also makes an

10:24

interesting point quote, the majority of

10:26

the Academy people stayed behind, though

10:28

a few of the pillars in

10:30

the old house have hedged, so

10:32

to speak, by leasing boxes in

10:35

both houses, enabling them at a

10:37

considerable cost to go to whichever

10:39

place has the greater musical or

10:41

social attraction. Just like

10:43

we see in the show, you know,

10:45

like the Feins and Mamie Fitch, and

10:48

there's some other Academy families who also

10:50

have a box at the Met. Yeah,

10:52

exactly. Well, you know, Gladys wants her

10:54

suitor Billy Carlton to visit the Russell's

10:56

box at the Met during the opening

10:59

night. But Bertha says no,

11:01

Gladys says she prefers Billy to

11:03

Bertha's Duke, but Bertha, she has

11:05

other plans. But I also

11:08

like how we see here Gladys and

11:10

Bertha, you know, carefully arranging their social

11:12

visits for the intermissions, right? All of

11:14

this in advance. After

11:16

all, the intermissions is when all the

11:18

action took place. It's very age of

11:20

innocence. The women, of course, would

11:23

have to stay put in their boxes, and

11:25

they would receive gentleman callers. And Bertha

11:27

is making it clear that Billy

11:29

won't be admitted, poor Billy.

11:32

But Bertha does show her nicer side

11:34

a few minutes later by offering two

11:37

tickets to Mrs. Bruce, who informs Bertha

11:39

that she'll be inviting Borden.

11:42

Yeah, so sweet. And hopefully this time

11:44

they won't get caught in a rainstorm.

11:47

I kind of think that they like getting

11:49

stuck together in that rainstorm. Yeah. And

11:51

soon enough, you know, the big night arrives,

11:54

the opening nights of both the Met and

11:56

the Academy, everyone is getting

11:58

ready. Bertha strides down. the

12:00

stairs resplendent in green, but Gladys

12:02

is the bell of the bull

12:05

in purple." And what a

12:07

train! In the words of Larry

12:09

Russell, where's my grubby little

12:11

sister? She's gone missing. And

12:14

then cut to Mrs. Astra and Carrie

12:16

Astra and Ward McAllister, who

12:18

are marching out to their waiting carriage, there

12:21

is no bounce in their step.

12:24

As Ward asks, are

12:26

you ready for the challenge? To

12:28

which she responds, it's time

12:31

to deliver the coup de grace. And

12:34

then when we get to the

12:36

opera houses, I love how different

12:38

the arrival scenes feel at the

12:41

Met versus the Academy. The Met

12:43

is bright, colorful, and lively, which

12:45

juxtaposes with the Academy, which is

12:47

dark, dim, and solemn. As

12:50

Oscar says, I see all of the

12:52

skeletons and ghouls are here. They

12:54

did look ghoulish. Was it

12:56

just my screen, or did everybody kind of

12:58

look green and sort of sickly? There's

13:01

a shot of the crowd and like, nobody

13:04

looks like they're happy to be there.

13:06

Yeah, it's all very dark and dingy.

13:08

However, I was kind of relieved to

13:10

see Oscar, you know, at least accompanying

13:12

his mother. They've had a rough couple

13:14

of days, so I'm glad that they

13:16

can still go to the opera together.

13:18

Well, I don't think he had a

13:20

choice, unlike Marion. Oh, yeah, she's at

13:22

the Met as Larry's guest.

13:24

And well, I mean, Bertha's guest.

13:28

And meanwhile, as Mrs. Winterton is arriving

13:30

and expecting to enter, you know, the

13:33

central box, she's instead

13:35

deposited in her off-center box.

13:38

And, you know, Mr. Winterton is just

13:40

not having any of her tantrums. You

13:43

like, sit down, sit down.

13:45

And both Bertha and Mrs.

13:47

Astra are waiting for the Duke to turn up.

13:49

We see him getting ready. The tension

13:51

builds. Where will he go? Mrs.

13:54

Astra goes into her box and

13:56

gasp. It's empty. And

13:59

at the Met, Bertha strides in like a

14:01

queen into the beautiful new upper house, which

14:03

Tom is full. I love it.

14:05

I love it. All the drama, you know,

14:08

as these women step into their boxes, Bertha

14:11

is greeted with gasps and applause. You

14:13

know, by the way, there's a lot

14:15

of gasping in this episode. Well, Mrs.

14:17

Astor is greeted with a kind of

14:20

like yawn. I mean, I think I

14:22

actually saw somebody fanning

14:24

themselves down there. It's

14:26

quite a contrast. And then Mamie Fish

14:29

arrives. You can always hear

14:31

her coming, making noise off stage.

14:34

She looks around and says, is

14:36

this it? And she is

14:38

like out of there. Because of course, she

14:41

has a box at the Met too.

14:43

So then we see the deuce getting

14:45

out of his carriage and he walks

14:47

into drumroll. The

14:49

Met. There's rapturous applause as

14:51

Mamie Fish arrives at the

14:53

Met just in time after

14:55

leaving the Academy. Ladies

15:26

and gentlemen, this

15:29

is a historic night for New York.

15:32

Of course, much work and

15:34

dedication has gone into this endeavor. And

15:37

I could reel off a list of our benefactors

15:39

that would keep us occupied until morning. But

15:42

I won't. Except to

15:44

say thank you to Mrs.

15:47

George Russell, who has

15:49

been our muse and inspiration.

15:57

Bertha is beaming. got

16:00

a dupe kissing her hand, the entire

16:02

Opera House is applauding and gasping her

16:04

every move. This is her night.

16:07

Oh yes, she is truly the queen

16:09

of this night. She also takes a

16:12

moment to whisper to George that

16:14

she was responsible for getting Mrs.

16:16

Winterton thrown out of the Academy. I

16:19

knew it all along, of course it was

16:21

her. It had to be, nobody else. And

16:24

Mrs. Astor has to accept the truth

16:26

that she has lost the Opera War,

16:28

and as Ward says, the season of

16:30

the Academy has drawn to a close.

16:33

And with that Tom, let's get into

16:35

what really happened, you know, off our

16:37

TV screens in real life. I'm

16:40

so curious, was it as we

16:42

see here, was the Academy deserted

16:44

and the Met full on opening

16:46

night? Well I think that

16:48

the show got to have a little

16:50

fun with us. The Academy was not,

16:53

in fact, a morgue that night, but

16:55

actually produced a fine Italian Opera. The

16:57

next day's Tribune carried a review of

17:00

both performances with the headline, Both

17:02

Temples of Music Well Patronized,

17:05

that stated, quote, The new

17:07

house was filled with a brilliant audience,

17:09

representing much of the wealth and beauty

17:11

of New York. The Academy

17:14

of Music also had a full

17:16

attendance, and Mr. Mapleson, the director,

17:19

expressed himself as well satisfied.

17:22

Not deserted. No. And

17:24

in another article in The Sun,

17:26

published on October 24th, Mapleson, the

17:29

director of the Academy, said that, quote, I

17:32

missed but few of the familiar faces

17:34

of those wealthy patrons of art. But

17:37

the bigger picture here is that

17:39

both opera directors were reportedly thrilled

17:42

that the evening meant that New

17:44

York was now large enough and

17:46

culturally rich enough to support two

17:49

opera houses. That really

17:51

was the big story. OK, so

17:53

then if they could support two

17:55

opera houses, why did

17:57

the Academy close? I mean, what happened next?

18:00

Well, the Academy would continue to produce

18:02

operas for a few more seasons, but

18:04

they had a problem. The

18:06

Met could offer to pay more for

18:08

their stars. And so

18:11

the Academy's top talent started drifting up

18:13

to 39th Street to the Met, leaving

18:16

the Academy to languish down on 14th Street. And

18:20

it would present its final opera in

18:22

1886, although it

18:24

would continue on presenting shows you

18:26

know, vaudeville and movies later until

18:29

it was demolished in the 1920s.

18:31

It's sad that that historic

18:34

building didn't survive. So true. Well,

18:37

we know that Bertha is partly based

18:39

on Alva Vanderbilt, who was heavily involved

18:41

with the Met. So was there a

18:44

showdown between Alva and Mrs. Astor

18:46

over these opera houses? Well,

18:49

Alva was all over the new Met.

18:51

I mean, her husband, Willie Kay Vanderbilt,

18:53

and his father, William H. Vanderbilt, had

18:55

both been on the organizing committee, as

18:58

we've discussed before. And

19:00

she had a couple of great boxes on

19:02

the parterre level. You know, the first

19:04

level of boxes. Alva had

19:06

number 28 and 30 near the center. But

19:10

not the actual center box. Ah,

19:13

this is funny, Alicia. There wasn't

19:15

an actual center box on the

19:17

first level because they needed

19:20

to accommodate the center entrance to the

19:22

ground floor to the orchestra level. So

19:25

no center box. Sorry Bertha. Sorry,

19:27

Mrs. Winterton. Was

19:29

there actually a battle between

19:31

Alva and Mrs. Astor? I

19:34

don't really think so, or at least not as

19:36

dramatic as we see portrayed on the show.

19:39

Remember how we talked last season a

19:42

lot about Mrs. Astor's role as the

19:44

gatekeeper of society? Right.

19:47

She was the one who essentially said who was in and

19:49

who was at. Yes.

19:52

And she knew that in order to keep

19:54

that role, she had to embrace some of

19:57

the new people, right? And

19:59

the new things. And that's why, Alicia, the

20:02

Astors bought boxes in

20:04

both houses. Looking

20:07

at the diagram of boxes at the Met for

20:10

opening night, Mrs. William Astor's

20:12

name was on box 9, just

20:14

next to William C. Whitney. However,

20:17

in that Tribune article that was published the

20:19

day before the openings, they

20:21

speculated that she'll probably be at

20:23

the Academy. So

20:25

then tell us where did the real

20:27

Mrs. Astor go on opening night? The

20:29

Academy, the Met? That's the

20:31

best part. She went to

20:33

Newport. She

20:36

avoided the entire drama. I

20:39

spoke to my colleague, Carl Raymond, from

20:41

the Gilded Gentlemen podcast about this yesterday.

20:44

And he underscored to me how Mrs.

20:46

Astor didn't know how it was going to play

20:48

out, right? And so she got out of town. But

20:51

she would have a commanding place at the

20:53

Met for decades, always arriving

20:56

late at 9 p.m. and always leaving

20:58

early at 11. My

21:00

kind of lady. So then both in

21:02

real life and on the show, the opening night

21:04

opera at the Met was Faust, which

21:07

as Gladys says, is all about a

21:09

man selling his soul to gain riches

21:11

and living to regret it, which seems

21:13

to me like a warning about whatever

21:15

deal Bertha did with the Duke to

21:17

get him there, basically, you know, gifting

21:19

him Gladys. Yes, yes,

21:22

back to the Duke. It does seem

21:24

like we're now drifting into the famous

21:26

story of Charles Spencer Churchill, the

21:29

ninth Duke of Marlborough, who would, of course,

21:31

marry Consuela Vanderbilt, Alva's daughter, in

21:33

1895. So

21:36

12 years after our story

21:38

here, but he was a Duke

21:40

and he did need cash and

21:42

Alva did seek him out for

21:44

her daughter. Mm hmm. Just like

21:46

Bertha on our show. So,

21:48

Tom, I have to know,

21:50

were you on Team Astor

21:52

or Team Russell this season

21:54

or Team Turner? I

21:57

mean, come on, I would never be able to say no

21:59

to Mrs. about anything and

22:02

yet Bertha is having so much more

22:04

fun. I think that probably

22:07

I'm Team Mamie Fish. I think

22:09

I would be hedging between these

22:12

two divas. What about you? Well

22:14

I'm Team Turner forever, you know. I've

22:16

got to stay true to her. But

22:19

we see here that the fictional Mrs.

22:21

Astor has lost this fight. So what

22:23

do you think is next for her

22:25

and for Ward? Well no

22:29

spoilers here but in real life this

22:32

was only 1883. They weren't going anywhere. Alright

22:37

now back to the Van Rynes. They're

22:39

still reeling over the news of Oscar

22:42

losing their family fortune to Maud Beaton

22:44

and have told the downstairs staff they'll

22:46

have to look for new jobs. The

22:48

only member of the staff that doesn't

22:50

seem too worried about all that is

22:52

Jack because he has received his patent.

22:55

Oh man and when this good news

22:58

kind of jumped across the room downstairs

23:00

everybody erupted with cheers. It was

23:03

really a burst of you know much needed

23:05

happiness. Well for everybody

23:07

except Armstrong of course. Of course.

23:10

Alright so let's talk now about

23:12

the fight for the Black schools

23:14

to stay open. Arthur Scott gets

23:16

wind that the date of the

23:18

Board of Education's meeting has been

23:20

switched without their knowledge and he

23:22

rushes over to his home where

23:24

Sarah Garnett, Dorothy, Peggy, Mr. Fortune

23:26

and the other volunteers are getting

23:28

all of their documents ready. Yeah

23:30

he races in and yells they've tricked us

23:33

and within 20 seconds that entire

23:35

group has packed up their papers and

23:37

rushed off to the school board meeting

23:40

which is in progress and Sarah's group

23:42

demands to know why the three black

23:45

schools are being closed when they have

23:47

applications for more students and teachers than

23:49

they can accommodate. Well luckily they

23:51

managed to save two out of the three schools

23:54

from closure and now they also know how to

23:56

deal with this if it happens in the future

23:59

and Sarah Garnett says that they should all be

24:01

glad. But Tom, can you tell us what happened

24:03

in real life? Well, it's actually

24:05

quite similar. In real life,

24:08

the state legislature passed a

24:10

law to abolish these, quote,

24:12

colored schools by 1884. And

24:14

it was signed by Governor Cleveland, although

24:16

the governor also signed a special bill

24:18

that allowed two of the black schools

24:21

in New York City to continue operating

24:23

largely as they had been. And that

24:26

included Sarah's Colored School number

24:28

four, which became Grammar School

24:30

number 81. And the

24:32

New York Times reported that by 1888, at

24:36

least some white students were

24:38

enrolled at Sarah's school, although

24:40

enrollment had dropped. But this,

24:42

according to Sarah, was largely due to the

24:44

fact that many were now just attending schools

24:46

that were closer to their own homes. So

24:49

they just didn't need to travel across the

24:51

city to get to her school. That's

24:54

right. And her school

24:56

closed in 1894. And

24:59

she would move over to the other

25:01

historically black school that was now called

25:03

Grammar School 80, which remained open until

25:05

about 1900. By

25:08

the way, I loved the scene back

25:10

at the Scots house, you know, after

25:12

all of this success, when it became

25:14

clear that Arthur has, as Dorothy put

25:16

it, done well today, I just

25:18

I thought it was so sweet,

25:21

you know, to see Dorothy and Arthur just

25:24

kind of giggling, you know, and just

25:26

very loving. It felt good. Yeah,

25:29

you're right. I mean, he's, he's earned

25:31

her trust back again. And that was

25:33

a really lovely moment between them. And

25:35

you know, just talking about Peggy for

25:37

a minute, she it seems

25:40

like she's taken on her mother's advice

25:42

about finding a life of her own

25:44

and not getting involved with the married

25:46

T. Thomas fortune. Because Tom, she's decided

25:48

to leave the globe. Yeah,

25:50

and this big revelation happens while the two

25:53

are strolling in Central Park. And

25:56

fortune tells her that he'll hate to see her go

25:58

as well all the others. She

26:00

is determined and she

26:03

drops another one of this episode's

26:05

big philosophical lines. She says, me

26:07

too, but bad timing shapes our

26:10

lives. And then

26:12

she walks off, I mean clearly sad, but also

26:15

it seems like she is now free from this

26:18

temptation. Absolutely. And you

26:20

know, there's another woman who wants a life

26:23

of her own, Marion. She

26:25

thinks a lot about Dashal and whether she

26:27

wants to be engaged to him, whether she

26:29

wants to be just a wife and not

26:32

a teacher anymore, and whether he truly loves

26:34

her or if he's still in

26:36

love with his deceased wife, Harriet. And

26:39

after a night of thinking, she comes

26:41

to a decision. I

26:43

cannot marry you. What? I

26:46

can't be your wife. I wouldn't be right. I'm sorry.

26:49

But I thought you loved me. I

26:51

thought you loved

26:54

Frances. I do love Frances. And

26:57

I am so sad if this is disappointing

27:00

for her. Then why are you doing it? Because

27:02

I don't think we want the same things. Or

27:06

even the same life. I

27:09

want a life like everyone else's. But

27:11

I don't. Or

27:13

not yet. I want to do some

27:15

good in the world before I settle down. I

27:19

don't understand. No

27:23

he doesn't understand, which is the whole point.

27:26

I mean he's such a great guy, but when

27:28

he came over earlier to visit and

27:30

generously offered to pay for the entire

27:33

wedding, he of

27:35

course called Marianne Harriet. And did you

27:37

see Marianne's face when he said that?

27:41

That was the moment that I knew it was over. Yeah,

27:43

and Ada noticed it too.

27:45

So she wasn't surprised by

27:47

Marianne's decision. I loved Ada's reaction

27:50

and how she kind of read the whole scene.

27:53

She saw Dashiel stumble out of the

27:56

parlor without Marianne. She didn't react

27:58

like I would have. What happened? She

28:00

just – Ada just

28:02

kind of like smiled serenely

28:04

and said, well, I

28:07

suppose that means you've told him. She

28:10

always knew, didn't she? Nothing gets

28:12

by Ada. But Agnes' reaction

28:14

to Marian's reveal that the

28:16

engagement is off was quite

28:19

unexpected. This one took me

28:21

by surprise when she said, even

28:23

I don't expect you to marry to please

28:25

me. That was just – it

28:27

wasn't what I was expecting. But of

28:30

course, remember, Agnes had a miserable marriage.

28:32

So she's probably more sympathetic than we

28:34

give her credit for. Although

28:37

she does offer Marian some advice

28:39

or perhaps it's a warning, now

28:42

you have two strikes against you,

28:44

Marian. The second more public than

28:46

the first, you can't afford another.

28:49

And then, remember, time passes

28:52

quickly. Don't throw your

28:54

life away. That one

28:56

really stopped me. I mean, there's some real life

28:59

coaching in this episode. And

29:02

this clearly sticks with Marian

29:04

too. Marian

29:06

who has grown so much more

29:08

independent and determined over these two

29:10

seasons. She really has. And

29:12

now, Tom, that means Marian

29:14

is fancy free, single,

29:16

and available to kiss

29:19

Larry Russell. Finally!

29:21

Finally! In a

29:23

nod to season one's finale, Marian

29:25

and Larry are crossing over 61st

29:27

Street from the Russells to

29:30

the Van Rines. They climb the

29:32

stairs. They chat about being friends for life.

29:35

She rings the doorbell. He quickly frowns as

29:37

he realizes that he's got to act quick.

29:40

He steps up and she falls in and they

29:42

kiss. Finally. Finally! I

29:45

was so excited. I'm all

29:47

for Larry and Marian. Larian,

29:50

shall we say. Larian! Long

29:53

live Larian. But

29:56

moments later, because we haven't had

29:59

enough breaking news. Larry drops

30:01

the bombshell that he wants to go

30:03

into business with Jack. And

30:06

this results, I think, in the

30:08

best jaw drop of the season when

30:10

Jack's eyes bulge out and his jaw

30:13

drops several inches. So it's very

30:15

well played by Ben Allers. Yeah,

30:17

he has a very expressive face.

30:20

So, you know, Marion is rushed inside

30:22

where Ada has been waiting to share

30:24

some big news with her and Agnes.

30:26

And we've seen throughout this episode how

30:28

hopeless Agnes' financial situation is. She has

30:30

no choice but to sell the house.

30:32

She has to put her clothes away

30:34

and possibly wear baggy clothes if she

30:36

can't keep the ladies made. Yes,

30:39

we have watched, you know, this

30:41

new financial reality sink in with

30:43

Agnes and the others, including the

30:45

staff. And we should

30:48

mention that we've seen Peggy show

30:50

sympathy for Armstrong, which then inspires

30:52

Agnes in another touching moment in

30:54

this episode to ask Armstrong

30:56

to stay on. It's

30:59

a nice scene, although Armstrong always

31:01

kind of walks that line of receiving

31:04

our pity and enraging us at the

31:06

same time. That's true. But Ada's big

31:08

news is that Luke

31:10

Forte, her recently deceased husband, left

31:13

her a huge amount of money.

31:15

Surprise, surprise, his grandfather made a

31:17

fortune in textiles, a business which

31:20

has kept going, kept adding wealth,

31:22

and Luke has barely touched it.

31:25

So that means Ada is rich. And

31:28

I'm wondering, do you think this is

31:30

what Luke meant when he told Ada

31:32

that she was Agnes' equal? Because, I

31:34

mean, really, she was a married woman

31:36

and she was a wealthy married woman

31:38

at that. So clever.

31:41

And so cryptic. And so

31:43

surprising. I mean, Howard Dynamics

31:45

are spinning around the van

31:48

Rijn parlor. And

31:50

Bannister enters, the whole staff has been up all

31:52

night, and he gets

31:54

the bombshell news from a

31:56

clearly delirious Agnes. inherited

32:00

a sum from her late husband so we

32:02

will not be moving and all of your jobs

32:05

are safe. Hallelujah!

32:08

And if I may say so, what

32:10

a relief! Please

32:12

feel free to tell them downstairs. Miss

32:19

Ada? Yes? Is

32:21

that your wish? Well,

32:25

yes. Please

32:28

tell them downstairs. Thank

32:31

you, Bannister. Yes, ma'am. Thank

32:34

you, Mum. This

32:36

was a fantastic scene. I mean,

32:38

you see the looks of realisation

32:41

slowly make their way across the

32:43

faces of Agnes, who is confused,

32:45

Ada, who is thinking through what

32:48

this might mean, and Marion, who

32:50

is just positively gleeful. Well, it

32:53

seems like Bannister caught on quickly. Yeah,

32:55

and Agnes isn't about to let go that

32:57

easily. She says, well, I still own the

32:59

house. And I mean, yeah, that's true. She

33:01

does. Yes, but only

33:04

because she now doesn't need to sell

33:06

it. And plus, as Marion says, yes,

33:09

but Aunt Ada will be paying their

33:11

wages. I really liked

33:13

how Ada cryptically says, things may be

33:15

a little different in the future, Agnes,

33:17

but I'm sure we'll work it out.

33:21

And as Ada smiles, you know,

33:24

assessing her new unexpected

33:26

power, season two comes

33:28

to a close. What

33:30

a final five minutes. There are

33:32

so many questions, so

33:34

many delicious possibilities, so many

33:37

unexpected twists. What will it

33:39

mean to have Ada in

33:41

charge? Oh, we're going to

33:43

have to wait to see. And perhaps,

33:45

you know, we can get some clues

33:48

from our special guests. Our final episode

33:50

for this season of the official Gilded

33:52

Age podcast continues after this break, and

33:54

we'll be breaking down the entire season

33:57

with all of that drama with the

33:59

Exacto. a producer of the Gilded

34:01

Age, Gareth Neame. Stay with us. I

34:14

love New York. I love everything about it. Good.

34:19

I'd hate for us to have to say goodbye. We'll

34:22

never say goodbye. We

34:25

know far too much about each other's lives, not

34:27

three friends' problems. Don't

34:30

open the door, Jack. Don't open. Let

34:33

him kiss. Tom, we've been waiting for

34:35

this since season one. What

34:37

a build-up. Well, we

34:39

will definitely have to ask our guests

34:41

about that in a moment. We are

34:43

so lucky to be joined now by

34:45

the executive producer of the Gilded Age,

34:47

Gareth Neame. Gareth is

34:50

an acclaimed television producer who

34:52

worked with Lord Julian Fellows

34:54

to create the highly successful

34:56

TV and now film series

34:58

Downton Abbey. Following their

35:00

work on Downton, he and Julian Fellows

35:02

turned their attention to America with the

35:04

Gilded Age. Over his

35:06

career, Gareth Neame has won BAFTA

35:08

Awards, Emmys, Golden Globes. He was

35:11

also the recipient of the Producers

35:13

Guild of America's David L. Wolper

35:15

Award and has received an Order

35:17

of the British Empire for his

35:19

services to drama. Gareth Neame,

35:21

it is a pleasure to have you back

35:24

on the podcast and as our special final

35:26

guest this season. What an honour.

35:28

And I'm a big fan of the

35:30

show from the first season, so glad to

35:32

be back. Thank you. We're honoured and we're

35:34

so happy to have you here. And

35:37

before we get into everything that happened to

35:39

the characters over the past eight weeks, I

35:42

would just love to take a step back

35:44

for a moment and talk about your job

35:47

as the executive producer of the Gilded Age.

35:49

Can you talk about your job? How do

35:51

you work together with Julian on the show?

35:54

Well, I guess we should go back to

35:56

how this all started. And of course, Julian

35:58

and I were working on it. working on

36:01

many seasons of Downton Abbey. We

36:03

turned it from a TV series to

36:05

a film franchise quite successfully, I'm pleased

36:08

to say. But back, if I backtrack,

36:10

you know, some years to probably midway

36:12

through the run of Downton, we

36:15

could see what a massive success the show

36:17

was in the United States, much

36:19

more than had it ever been predicted

36:21

by us and everyone, I think.

36:24

So we were aware that there was a

36:26

whole American angle to this story. And in

36:29

fact, Julian had written a pilot

36:31

script many, many years ago of a show

36:34

about the Vanderbilt's. And that series

36:36

didn't progress. And I think it was rather limited

36:39

by the fact that it was based

36:41

on a true story. It was the story

36:43

of the Vanderbilt. So obviously didn't leave room

36:45

for fictional invention. And that

36:47

project never proceeded. But I think the idea

36:49

was there. And so we

36:51

talked about pursuing a project

36:53

about New York's Gilded Age. We

36:56

had to really wait for Julian to finish

36:58

writing all of the episodes of Downton. So

37:00

the show was as a concept, it was

37:02

parked for a long time. And he wrote

37:05

the pilot script for Gilded in 2018.

37:08

And it had a few stops and

37:10

starts and was eventually set

37:12

up at HBO. So I was really I

37:14

was heavily involved in developing the series with

37:17

Julian in the first place and setting it

37:19

up at HBO. And

37:21

what's my working relationship with him? I suppose

37:23

I might suggest I'm

37:25

his editor. He's the writer.

37:28

I'm the person who gets to read his stuff

37:30

first and say, yes, yes,

37:32

no, maybe, you know, all of this and

37:34

hopefully give constructive feedback that helps to build

37:36

the stories into what they are. What

37:39

is it like then being two Brits

37:41

who are producing a show shot in

37:43

America for essentially American audiences

37:45

about American history? Do you think it

37:48

does take that outside of perspective to

37:50

capture the kind of the real truth

37:52

and the nuance of what was happening

37:54

during the Gilded Age? Well,

37:57

yes, I think I

37:59

think there's a characters

40:00

are all fictional, but every now and again,

40:02

we would meet a real character from history

40:05

and that really helps anchor the stories, it

40:08

places them in a context. And we've used

40:10

quite a similar device here, although I think

40:12

actually we've used way more real characters from

40:14

history than we did on Downton. Obviously,

40:17

it gives us the best flexibility with the

40:19

story, telling that our principal characters are all

40:21

fictional. So they can be amalgams. George is

40:23

an amalgam of about two or three different

40:25

Robert Barons and Bertha is an amalgam of

40:27

at least two society

40:30

ladies. But by having characters like, a

40:32

supporting character like Ward McAllister, he can

40:35

be a real character from history and

40:37

really anchor or Mrs. Astor and that.

40:39

So they're more supporting characters of the

40:42

real heroes and heroines. But

40:44

yeah, I mean, for example, I knew

40:46

nothing about the Emily Robling story until

40:49

Julian showed me a first outline of

40:51

the ideas for that episode. Immediately, I

40:53

looked it up and I thought, this

40:55

is a really fascinating story. It's completely

40:57

contemporary, 2022, 23 of our times. It's

41:02

an absolutely fascinating idea.

41:04

And as the character says, you know, nobody

41:06

can know that there was a woman engineer

41:09

behind this bridge because no man would ever

41:11

walk along it. And I

41:13

just think these are stories that are

41:16

real stories that are as good as anything

41:18

you could invent and feels very true

41:20

to us. Yeah. And there's

41:22

also a lot of real events being

41:24

woven into the fictional events this season.

41:27

We see, you know, a

41:29

lot of battles. We have the unions

41:31

versus the robber barons. And

41:33

then of course, you have Bertha versus

41:35

Turner and Armstrong versus Peggy, the Board

41:37

of Education versus the Black schools. So

41:40

would you say that all of these conflicts that

41:42

we see in the show

41:44

are a result of the amount of change

41:46

that was happening during the Gilded Age? Yes.

41:49

I mean, it was the industrialization

41:51

of the nation was, of

41:53

course, what allowed America to overtake Great Britain

41:55

as the sort of dominant power of the

41:58

world. It may have been one of the most important

42:00

periods of modern history. You know, that

42:02

huge growth of industry and spreading west

42:05

across the nation, the railroads, the

42:07

steel, the shipbuilding, created these

42:09

wealthy individuals, created the need for the workforce

42:11

on a level that had never been seen

42:14

before. And thus the trade

42:16

union movement is born of that. So

42:18

yeah, it's absolutely fascinating

42:21

era. And those stories are so contrasting, aren't

42:23

they? I love the way we go from

42:25

the Henderson meetings, the

42:27

union meetings, straight into the

42:29

opera wars. You know, they're all moments of conflict

42:32

and very, very different ends of the scale. Yeah,

42:34

that's always the fun part for us on

42:36

the podcast too, pivoting from, you know, one

42:39

moment to another in a way that works.

42:41

I mean, another element that we have to have

42:43

and that you certainly gave us this season is

42:45

romance. Although several of

42:48

those didn't really work out in the

42:50

long term. I mean, I'm thinking Ada

42:52

and Reverend Luke Forte, Dachil

42:54

and Marian, and of course, Oscar

42:56

and Maude. But

42:58

could we talk about Dachil and Marianne for a second? Alicia

43:01

and I have been talking about this sort

43:03

of sense of unease that we felt with

43:05

their relationship really, you know, as the audience

43:08

from the beginning, was that

43:10

intended? Was it was it intended that

43:12

they feel just a little bit off?

43:15

And were we never really supposed to

43:17

like this setup? I think it contrasts

43:19

with the first season where she has

43:21

followed her heart and made a great

43:24

big mistake. She spends much of season

43:26

one telling her aunt that she's right

43:28

and they're wrong as young people usually

43:31

do. I think she's hurt

43:33

and ashamed at the end of the

43:35

first season. And we meet her in

43:37

the second season where perhaps slightly more

43:39

measured Marianne is prepared to take advice.

43:41

And I think all young people, most

43:43

young people have been in these positions, haven't they,

43:45

where they're trying to navigate relationships

43:48

and that sometimes you know best. And

43:50

then sometimes you are open to the

43:52

opinion of others, be that friends or

43:54

older relatives. And I think she thinks

43:56

I did it on my own and

43:58

I got it spectacular. wrong. And

44:00

here is this perfectly eligible husband. So I

44:02

think to, you know, in the 1880s, that

44:06

potential match wouldn't have seemed unusual.

44:08

And I think there were

44:10

fewer marriages made for love than they

44:13

were in the 20th century. And

44:15

fortunately, our Marian works out. She

44:18

learns through this, as she learned in the first

44:20

season, that there is a difference between pragmatic relationships

44:23

and true love. And she knows that she

44:25

doesn't love him increasingly. She knows that he

44:27

doesn't love her. He loves his late wife.

44:31

And she is, I think, by the end of

44:33

the second season, wiser, more

44:35

sophisticated, romantically mature woman

44:38

than a few episodes

44:40

earlier. Yeah. And as

44:42

you mentioned, there's that contrast with Aunt

44:44

Agnes, right? And their views on marriage

44:46

and Agnes even sort of in that

44:49

terrible scene in the Botanical Garden, you

44:51

know, saying, Yes, I do. She basically

44:53

said I do for Marian from

44:56

the audience. But then by the end of this

44:59

episode, you know, when Agnes has gotten the news

45:01

that Marian has broke off the engagement, she

45:04

surprised me. I mean, she said, I even I don't

45:06

expect you to get married to somebody you don't love.

45:09

So maybe they're actually closer

45:11

to the same viewpoint. And

45:14

Agnes, of course, has gone on a huge

45:16

journey across these eight episodes. You

45:19

know, that relationship with her sister has sort

45:21

of gone full circle, I think, particularly over

45:24

the marriage, you know, that sense

45:26

of selfishness and a sense of

45:28

abandonment. But that wonderful moment

45:30

when she does, of course, arrive at the

45:33

church and will ultimately support her

45:35

sister and is the stauncher supporter of

45:37

her at all, of all when

45:41

Luke is dying. Yeah. And

45:43

of course, she has her own story. I mean,

45:45

she has her own backstory with her own marriage.

45:48

She did marry somebody she didn't

45:50

love. Yeah. Yeah. Someone pretty awful. It sounds

45:53

like We talked about the romance that

45:55

didn't work. Let's talk about the one that did

45:57

work. I Mean, the payoff here. Finally, after two

45:59

seasons. You know in

46:01

the last almost the last seen

46:03

we see finally Marion and Larry

46:05

kiss on. We've been really

46:07

hoping for this since the end of

46:09

season one, and did did you sort

46:12

of have you construct that duties the

46:14

audience a little bit without giving too

46:16

much away throughout the whole thing and

46:18

set it up? It's the opposite of-oh

46:20

really. I mean we. We want this

46:23

to happen. Well. That the this

46:25

is a sort of how style that Julian

46:27

Alive used before and at that time. if

46:29

you remember the early seasons of Downton Abbey,

46:31

you had the whole marry messy thing. We

46:33

managed to keep that going to. The.

46:36

Least two season two seasons before they

46:38

he proposed to her. So what would

46:40

you said tom about Lowry and Marion

46:42

and that in the idea that everyone

46:44

thought from the beginning the says this

46:46

is actually the ideal partnership will cause

46:49

that's exactly what we want to hear

46:51

the audience say we want that the

46:53

sort of tension this the sexual romantic

46:55

tension that comes from these characters as

46:57

if we designed it right and if

46:59

we'd cost at well that the audience

47:01

of picking up these things just as

47:04

in real life we notice all friends.

47:06

Who cooks or marry the wrong people than

47:08

miss out on the people that they should

47:10

have married in a we see this everywhere

47:12

we look at. This is great. saying it's

47:14

with is a fascinating about humanity. So yeah

47:17

it's great that the audience think they should

47:19

get together and would have to see in

47:21

the third season. Maybe what? you know what

47:23

does happen between them You give this to

47:25

us in the very last scene of the

47:28

last episode we have to always has the

47:30

Were Now yeah it's like there's a certain

47:32

bittersweet quality to those yang and when that

47:34

we have to wait. Well, that

47:37

series television I suppose.

47:39

Ssssss. Well. As Peggy

47:41

also had a whirlwind of the seasons

47:43

is as she went through a lot

47:45

this season and I know that to

47:48

name Benton was quite involved with a

47:50

character last times. do you work with

47:52

some of the past especially now that

47:54

they are sale as a million with

47:56

their characters? This season. that's the

47:59

real joy for the second seasons

48:01

compared to third seasons, because you usually

48:03

have most of the scripts of the

48:05

first season done before you start because

48:07

you have to have a roadmap. But

48:09

those are just words on a page.

48:11

Nothing actually has been crystallized, nothing exists.

48:13

So the characters as written in the

48:15

first season are inventions and by the

48:17

second season, of course, they're fully formed

48:19

characters and performances. That then informs the

48:21

way of second series and all future

48:23

seasons are written. And

48:26

the character becomes a bit of the actor

48:28

and a bit of what the writer originally

48:30

conceived of and they evolve. And ultimately

48:33

the individual actor is the principal

48:35

custodian of those characters. And

48:38

you mentioned Denae and yes, I mean, she's

48:40

formed a great bond with Erica Dunbar and

48:43

they discuss these historical stories, get

48:45

the context right. So yeah, they

48:47

are involved. I mean, it would be wrong to

48:49

say that it's in any way written

48:52

by a committee of actors and the actors themselves would

48:54

be the first to say that is not how it

48:56

happens. But there is this sort of shared

48:59

ownership between the writers, producers

49:01

and the actors of those characters. And

49:03

we all shape

49:05

them in those different ways. But the

49:07

job of each actor is just that

49:09

one character and to be the guardian

49:11

of that character. Well, another

49:14

character who finally came into his

49:16

own this season was Jack or

49:18

John rather, who really

49:20

developed becoming an inventor no less

49:23

and is going into business with

49:25

Larry Russell. Can you tell us

49:27

about Jack's journey this season? The

49:29

very heart of the show is obviously the social

49:33

manner and the social behavior of New York

49:35

society. That's the very heart of it. But

49:37

we are trying to depict a much

49:40

wider impression of America

49:42

at that time. And of course, the

49:44

Jack story is another one of the

49:47

big American dreams and the big

49:49

American stories. He's got nothing. He's

49:51

a poorly paid, poorly educated young

49:53

man, but he's got ambition. And

49:56

so that idea of a young man who has an invention and

49:59

can make something From it. The mention and come

50:01

from nothing To be a Man

50:03

Devitt Amount of Industry is a

50:05

different story from Georgia as but

50:07

nonetheless absolutely at the heart of.

50:09

Of the American Story Yes, the

50:11

American Dream. Melee Internet that you

50:14

can make anything of yourselves for. And

50:16

speaking of see night and at the

50:18

end of the that the gop her

50:21

law This season's Mrs. Russell has beaten

50:23

Mrs. Asda. She's had that's triumphant opening

50:25

of the Met with the do in

50:28

her box and you know made me

50:30

face tells her American society has been

50:32

reborn tonight's and your at the very

50:34

heart of it. So what does this

50:37

mean for Mrs. Asda and the old

50:39

Gods moving forward? Universes journey

50:41

ends the So season as a

50:43

member of society and ends the

50:45

second season as really the head

50:48

of society So we we have

50:50

seen her a sense now and

50:52

we will see Misses Us does

50:54

in. A further decline of the

50:56

campaign between these two teams are

50:58

continues. So. What has changed for Mrs.

51:00

Russell? You know what? what could be next for

51:02

hat? maybe? Well I think with

51:05

power comes responsibility and when you get

51:07

to the top as a new one

51:09

other place to go. So she'll she'll

51:12

mid. I have some ups and downs

51:14

with assistance have to wait or I

51:16

was his Ss Bullock across across Sixty

51:19

first Street of Van. Ryan says there's

51:21

been a lot of drama, right? Agnes

51:23

has seen her fortune wiped out and

51:26

eight of course the devastating loss of

51:28

her husband. But then she comes into

51:30

her own surprise fortune by the end

51:33

of. This episode, and you know,

51:35

watching this one thing happened, watching

51:37

the loss of fortune and beginning

51:39

of another. It's kind of like

51:41

the Gilded Age world that we

51:44

knew years sort of spawn and

51:46

realigned unexpectedly with Ada. At

51:48

It's Center Sarah even Bannister differs

51:50

eight at the end of this

51:52

episode. Two new talk about that

51:55

twist building that twist and kind

51:57

of what has happened. When again,

51:59

these. The complete bolt thousand a story

52:01

or you set up a world and

52:03

then you completely turn on said as

52:05

you say. And and that's what we

52:07

have here. It's a it's classic Julian

52:09

Fellowes the moment you refer to which

52:11

is. The banister. Immediately understands

52:14

that this means effectively his boss. This

52:16

change because you have to follow the

52:18

money cause it's it. takes a little

52:20

longer for it to sink in. With.

52:23

Agnes she doesn't betty thing necessarily. the

52:25

anything particularly will change, but Banished understands

52:27

Media Li and it's all. It's almost

52:29

like an election isn't at the moment

52:31

that the election this is won or

52:33

lost. You know that the loser has

52:36

to concede defeat. well, at something housework

52:38

anyway. At

52:41

Him And I just I think it.

52:43

Yeah, it's not. It's not just the

52:45

dynamic between the two sisters. It's then

52:47

against it's classic cellos. It's see The

52:50

Outsider. It's the Servants pointed Years who

52:52

gets it. Gets there quicker and

52:54

and up and sees how. All

52:57

the rules of suddenly change and I think

52:59

it's the most I mean you, you tube

53:01

you like this. The Marion and Larry hurt

53:03

when that's great but I happen to love

53:05

this. This is how they would how they

53:07

will get out and and any means into

53:09

the great thing for a serious television when

53:11

you want to run multiple seasons and the

53:13

how do you keep the sing going? How

53:15

do you keep interesting? How do you stop

53:17

things getting repetitive which is always the challenge

53:19

and if you throw something completely upside down

53:21

of course it just to think about it

53:23

seems to play between Agnes Neda, they all

53:25

our have to be completely. Different. And.

53:29

But again, we're going to have to wait and see what happens. Next.

53:33

Nightmare. Girth to We

53:35

speak for a moment about Mod Beaten. Me:

53:37

Kids assists. She actually made

53:40

us feel sorry again. For.

53:42

For Oscar Van Ryan which is

53:44

not that easy to do that.

53:46

Could you tell us about the

53:48

inspiration behind Mod and and developing

53:50

the story line? There were several

53:52

female swindlers who might have served

53:54

as inspiration pets. And tell us

53:56

that mud? It's a sort of

53:58

mainstay of unions, right? that when somebody

54:00

is down on their luck, they tend to be

54:02

really down on their luck. He gets beaten up.

54:04

He decides he has to, I've got to get

54:06

my life. I have to have a mainstream normal

54:08

life. I need to have a wife and I

54:11

need to have a place in society. So

54:13

glad is, we already know from season one

54:15

that he's got interest in that direction. So

54:17

he tries to pull out that through, that

54:20

goes nowhere and he accepts that and then

54:22

meets Maud and thinks, she could be absolutely

54:24

perfect. And then that of course goes wrong

54:26

as well. And leads, of course by the

54:28

end of the season to the loss of

54:31

the family's entire wealth. So

54:33

it's that sense. I mean, we saw

54:35

it with the character of Lady Edith,

54:37

for example, in Downton who for multiple

54:39

seasons, everything went wrong, every single, because

54:41

there are people like that in life.

54:44

Fortunately for Edith, things do go right

54:46

by the final season or so. And

54:49

thus it is with Oscar as well. I mean,

54:52

he's not getting a break yet, but maybe he

54:54

will eventually. Are you going to give him a

54:56

break in season three? Notice

54:59

I said, maybe he will get a break. Well,

55:03

when you look back over season

55:05

two, I'm wondering like, what

55:07

are you most proud of or what

55:09

do you hope to leave audiences with?

55:12

So I'm really pleased with the show that

55:14

Julian and I have been able to open

55:17

the eyes of a mainstream

55:19

broad American domestic audience into

55:22

the story of where you

55:24

guys came from and how

55:26

modern America was built. The

55:29

other big difference between Downton and

55:31

Gilded Age is that Downton is all about the

55:33

dying of the light. It's about the end of

55:35

an age and the end of an era. The

55:38

Gilded Age is a show about the future. It

55:40

may actually be set deeper in history than obviously

55:42

Downton is a 20th century show. This is a

55:44

19th century show, but

55:46

Gilded feels far more modern than

55:48

Downton. Downton has motor cars and telephones and

55:50

things that we don't have in Gilded Age,

55:53

but Gilded Age is in New York City

55:56

at its biggest period of change

55:58

and industrial. and

56:00

political revolution and or

56:03

societal revolution. The great thing is that

56:05

we've depicted it on screen, we brought

56:07

awareness to it and as a lover

56:09

of history like you guys, you know,

56:12

I just love telling these stories and

56:14

that's the piece I'm most happy about.

56:16

Thank you for creating that

56:19

world and bringing 19th century America to

56:21

life and thank you for joining us

56:23

and congratulations on completing season two of

56:25

the Guilders. Thank you. Well, it was

56:27

a joy to do and it's always

56:29

a great pleasure to talk to you both.

56:31

Thank you. Wow,

56:37

it is always so interesting talking

56:39

to Gareth and I now

56:42

feel Alicia actually more

56:44

excited than ever about season three.

56:47

Where, oh where are they going

56:49

to take these many storylines? I

56:52

know, I can't wait to see

56:54

what happens with Bertha after her opera

56:56

success and how Larian's develop. Well,

57:00

judging from what Gareth just told

57:02

us, the series will probably continue

57:04

to surprise us. What a

57:06

season this has been, what a roller coaster.

57:08

I just, I feel so

57:10

lucky to have watched it all and talked

57:13

it all through with you Alicia. Thank you

57:15

so much for joining me. Oh,

57:17

thank you. I mean, it's been so

57:19

much fun to talk about operas and

57:21

an Agnes with you Tom. So

57:25

many opera boxes to talk through. And both

57:28

of us hope that you all enjoyed your

57:30

trip through the Guilded Age season two.

57:32

We loved having you with us. Yes,

57:35

we did. Thank you all so

57:37

much for listening. Until next time.

57:39

Bye-bye everybody. Bye. Bye. This

57:50

has been the official Guilded Age

57:53

podcast written, hosted and produced by

57:55

Alicia Malone and me, Tom Myers.

57:57

Our supervising producer is Andrew Andrew

58:00

Pemberton Fowler. Our consulting

58:02

producer is Grant Rutter. Our

58:05

editor is Trey Booty with special

58:07

thanks to Michael Gluckstadt and Sivan

58:10

Slater from HBO and Hannah Pedersen

58:12

and Amy Machado from Podpeople.

58:15

Listen to the official Gilded Age

58:17

podcast after each episode airs on

58:19

Macs or wherever you find podcasts.

58:22

Want even more extra content and behind the

58:24

scenes moments from the Gilded Age? Follow

58:27

us on Facebook and Instagram

58:29

at GildedAgeHBO to join the

58:31

conversation today. The official

58:34

Gilded Age podcast is

58:36

a production of HBO

58:38

in partnership with Podpeople.

58:40

Podpeople. Hey everyone,

58:43

this is Tom. For more

58:45

information on the Gilded Age in New York

58:48

City, I invite you to

58:50

check out my podcast, The Bowery

58:52

Boys, co-hosted with Greg Young. On

58:55

The Bowery Boys, we talk about

58:57

Gilded Age society and culture, as

59:00

well as architecture, immigration, politics,

59:02

and the events that shape

59:04

the city. That's The Bowery

59:06

Boys. Listen wherever you get

59:08

podcasts.