1:59

late 2020 that his

2:02

election fraud claims were baseless.

2:05

Trump advisers and attorneys have long

2:08

suspected that Meadows may end up cooperating

2:11

with prosecutors and have even

2:13

spitefully used the rat emoji

2:16

when discussing the former Trump top

2:18

aide in text communications.

2:22

Meadows also told the federal investigators

2:24

Trump was being, and I quote, dishonest

2:27

with the public when he first claimed

2:29

to have won the election only hours

2:32

after polls closed on November 3rd

2:34

of 2020 before final

2:36

results were even in. Meadows

2:39

has also prompted speculation

2:41

that he may look to avoid liability

2:44

in the Fulton County case by

2:46

highlighting Trump's potential culpability.

2:50

As Politico noted in September,

2:53

a lawyer for Meadows stated in a

2:55

pretrial hearing that the

2:57

infamous phone call between Trump and

3:00

Georgia Secretary of State Brad

3:02

Raffensperger contained a

3:04

lot of statements by Mr. Trump, but

3:07

included no demands to change

3:09

the vote totals from Meadows. In

3:13

a pair of Truth Social posts, Trump

3:15

said he doesn't believe Meadows would turn

3:17

on him but noted that his former

3:20

chief of staff has been threatened

3:22

with prosecution and might be

3:24

tempted by an immunity agreement. Well,

3:26

look, it's exactly the same shit he

3:28

said about me. It's exactly the

3:31

same shit he says about everyone.

3:34

Some people would make that deal, but they

3:36

are weaklings and cowards and

3:39

so bad for the future of our failing

3:41

nation, Trump said. I

3:43

don't think that Mark Meadows is one of them,

3:45

but who really knows? Trump

3:48

denied Meadows report assertions and

3:51

pointed out that Meadows defended

3:53

Trump's election complaints in his book. Mark

3:56

Meadows never told me that elections

3:59

have significant... Donald

6:00

Eisen is a CNN legal analyst

6:02

and the founder and executive

6:04

chair of States United Democracy

6:07

Center, a nonpartisan organization

6:10

advancing free, fair, and

6:12

secure elections. His

6:15

articles for the Brookings Institute and

6:17

elsewhere have made the case for why

6:19

Trump and his banned and criminal conspiracists

6:23

represent a clear and present danger

6:25

to democracy.

6:27

The former Obama ethics czar

6:29

and ambassador to the Czech Republic

6:32

joins us today to get to the heart of

6:34

exactly what's going on. So

6:36

let's go now to that conversation.

6:39

Okay, so Norm, let's start

6:42

today by discussing Mark Meadows's

6:44

immunized testimony. I know we're

6:46

going to get to my testimony

6:48

before the New York Attorney General,

6:51

our unthinkable Attorney

6:53

General, Tish James's $250 million baseline

6:55

civil fraud case. But

7:00

before we start on me, I want

7:02

to talk to you today and I want to start

7:04

by discussing Mark Meadows's immunized

7:07

testimony in Donald Trump's

7:09

election subversion case. What

7:12

does Meadows have on Trump, Giuliani,

7:16

and the rest of them that could prove

7:18

to be a knockout punch? What

7:20

Meadows has on Donald Trump

7:23

and Rudy Giuliani and

7:26

the rest of the coup crew, the

7:30

coup

7:33

coup, coup crew, is

7:38

an insider's perspective,

7:41

a bird's eye view on

7:43

exactly how the coup unfolded.

7:46

Who did what? The

7:49

skeletons that come dancing

7:51

out of the closet, the bodies

7:53

that are buried that he can exhume,

7:55

and above all, direct

7:59

testimony.

8:00

based on firsthand conversations

8:03

with his co-conspirator Donald

8:05

Trump. The federal case where

8:07

Meadows is cooperating is all about

8:10

nailing Trump. He's

8:11

the only name defended.

8:14

There are unindicted co-conspirators,

8:17

including two of those who pled

8:19

guilty

8:20

in Georgia. They're

8:22

gonna have a hard time defending

8:25

themselves when Smith comes after

8:27

them. But the main

8:30

evidence that Meadows

8:33

offers right now is what was

8:35

going on in Trump's head and proof

8:37

that he knew he lost,

8:40

unlike

8:41

Meadows and unlike you, refuses

8:44

to come clean about his prior

8:47

lies and

8:49

therefore faces

8:52

substantial criminal exposure on March

8:54

4th 2024. Trial

8:58

of the century isn't strong enough,

9:00

Michael. The trial of the millennium.

9:04

When Donald Trump

9:06

goes on trial before Judge

9:08

Tanya Chudkin and

9:11

a jury, a District of Columbia

9:13

jury here

9:15

in our federal courthouse in Washington.

9:18

Yeah and don't forget March 22nd

9:20

he's supposed to be starting the

9:23

criminal trial for the District Attorney

9:25

of New York, the Alvin

9:27

Bregh case, which clearly is gonna

9:29

get pushed back if the Washington

9:32

DC case, you know, starts first.

9:34

But again, you know, when you're when

9:36

you're plagued by as many indictments

9:40

and cases as Donald is,

9:43

sometimes

9:46

one case is going to

9:48

have to take precedence over another. But

9:51

you know ABC News on

9:53

this report that sources

9:56

had told them that Meadows

9:58

informed Smith's team. Jack

10:00

Smith is who I'm referring to, that he

10:03

repeatedly, Mark Meadows, who,

10:05

you know I have no regard for this guy, and

10:07

I told him when I was testifying

10:10

before the House Oversight Committee, I

10:12

know what you're doing, and look at what

10:14

happened to me. What do you think

10:17

is gonna happen to you? And holy

10:19

shit, four years, five

10:21

years later, since that 2018 testimony,

10:27

the shit's coming to his backyard now. But

10:31

he repeatedly told Trump

10:34

in the weeks after the 2020 presidential

10:37

election, that the allegations

10:40

of significant voting fraud

10:43

coming to them were baseless. Yes.

10:46

I mean, then, according to

10:48

the same sources, Meadows

10:50

also told the federal investigators

10:52

that Trump was being, and here's the quote, dishonest

10:56

with the public when he first

10:58

claimed to have won the election only

11:01

hours after the polls closed on

11:03

November 3rd of 2020. That

11:06

was even before the final results came

11:08

in. Yes, but

11:10

the reason that those kinds of

11:13

things are important, that

11:17

the claims were baseless, that Trump was being

11:19

dishonest, is

11:21

not just for Meadows' opinion. Oh,

11:24

in my view, the claims were baseless. Oh,

11:26

in my view, Trump was dishonest. No!

11:28

It's because he'll talk about his

11:30

conversations with Donald Trump, including

11:34

Trump reportedly admitting

11:35

to Meadows. Cassidy Edgerton

11:38

says she was present

11:39

admitting to Meadows that he lost

11:41

the election.

11:43

He knew he lost that election. And

11:45

that makes the

11:47

whole attempted coup,

11:50

the big lie, the effort to overturn

11:53

the 2020 election, which is

11:55

still being perpetuated, by

11:57

the way. The big lie is still going. Trump

11:59

talks better. all the time. That makes

12:02

all of that

12:03

evidence of Donald Trump's

12:06

bad intent. And

12:08

that's what prosecutors are going to have to prove, criminal

12:11

intent. So on the jury, the

12:14

questions are going to be, now,

12:16

did Mr. Trump, did you

12:18

believe that the election was

12:21

stolen? No.

12:23

Now, did you have, did you ever discuss

12:25

that with Mr. Trump? Yes.

12:28

What did he tell you? He told me

12:30

he lost.

12:31

Game over. Okay. So

12:34

now it's where we're going to bring

12:36

in the last couple of days

12:39

of my life, the big showdown

12:42

as the press like to call it, considering

12:44

I have not been in a room and have

12:47

not seen Trump since, you

12:49

know, 2018. Donald Trump,

12:53

in the past

12:56

has called Mark Meadows, one

12:58

of the former president's closest

13:01

and highest ranking aides in

13:03

the White House, a special

13:06

friend and a great chief

13:08

of staff. Yeah. As good as

13:10

it gets. Yeah. Now, all of a sudden,

13:12

now, mind you, in the past,

13:15

Donald has turned around and called

13:17

me brilliant, a fantastic

13:20

lawyer, a guy who can get

13:23

anything done as good

13:25

as it gets. Now, all

13:27

of a sudden, I'm the convicted

13:30

felon. I'm the rat.

13:33

I am the serial liar, the

13:36

convicted liar. And so

13:39

this is what he's going to do to Mark

13:42

Meadows. It's what he does to anyone

13:45

and everyone who

13:47

now opposes him. When

13:50

you are on his side, when you are

13:52

carrying his proverbial water

13:55

of bullshit, then

13:57

all of a sudden you're the best. You're

14:00

the absolute best. You're as good as it gets.

14:03

You're smart. You're dedicated.

14:05

You're loyal. You're everything.

14:08

And then all of a sudden, when

14:11

things aren't going the way he wants

14:14

it, you're a liar. You're

14:17

a cheat. You're a scumbag.

14:20

You're a rat. You're a felon.

14:22

You're a serial liar. And then

14:24

he gets his minion. He gets

14:26

his minions of moronic MAGA

14:30

jerkoffs around him to

14:32

start spewing the same shit. When I

14:35

sat on that stand, I

14:37

had fuckers like Chris

14:39

Caius, who's of

14:41

the three lawyers that were at

14:44

the table. He's the only truly

14:46

legitimate lawyer that was at the

14:48

table. Get up and calling me

14:51

a serial liar. I lie about

14:53

everything. Nothing that comes out

14:55

of my mouth is true. I

14:59

was going to ask him, but they wouldn't let me,

15:01

of course, because I'm merely a witness

15:03

on the stand. Well, did

15:05

I lie when I said that Donald doesn't

15:07

beat Melania? Did

15:10

I lie when I said that there is no such

15:12

thing as the P-tape? Did

15:15

I lie when I turned around and said

15:18

that Donald did not father

15:20

a child out

15:23

of wedlock with an ex-employee,

15:27

a woman who was working at one of the Trump

15:29

buildings? Are those

15:31

lies?

15:33

You can't have it both ways. And

15:35

the problem, though, is Chris Caius

15:38

is throwing away his entire career. I

15:41

mean, he'll be shit after this. And if he

15:43

thinks he's going to be the one and only lawyer

15:46

that Donald doesn't fuck over, because

15:48

Trump doesn't care that it took you years

15:50

to get your more-miced, that you had

15:52

to take exams in order, he doesn't care.

15:55

You know why? Because after Chris Caius fucks

15:58

up, and after he's like... Rudy

16:00

Giuliani's in a Mark Eastman's or

16:03

the Meadows or whoever else, he'll

16:05

find somebody else. There's in

16:07

his mind there's always another idiot

16:11

to follow him that he can

16:13

get for not a lot of money. I mean

16:15

then you have look you have that guy Cliff

16:17

Robert, I don't know he you know

16:20

personal injury, you know

16:22

whatever the hell he does, you know

16:24

small time civil litigator

16:27

and then no need for me to even discuss

16:30

Alina Haber walking back

16:32

and forth in her high heel shoes. The only

16:34

thing that was missing from that scene

16:37

was a cameraman in front of her and

16:39

somebody holding a fan because

16:41

all she was doing was playing

16:44

to him and to his ego. She

16:46

didn't care she knew this case is

16:48

fucked but somewhere along the line

16:51

these three assholes sold Donald

16:54

on a bill of goods that by discrediting

16:56

me by trying to denigrate

16:59

me casting me as a liar

17:02

a serial liar and so on that

17:05

all of a sudden they were going to make a motion

17:07

for a directed verdict. The

17:09

judge was going to grant it. Trump was

17:11

going to walk out hands in

17:13

the air like Rocky Balboa after

17:16

his first win Rocky II and

17:19

he's going to declare victory not

17:21

just on this case but on all of the cases.

17:24

It's all part of the great witch hunt

17:27

but here's what happened.

17:29

Judge turned around and said you're

17:31

choking right? He goes absolutely

17:34

denied and Cliff Robert

17:37

comes back and he asks again no your

17:40

honor you have to do it. If

17:42

if

17:43

Tish James's case was predicated

17:46

on a on a serial liar and

17:48

everything that he says has been proven

17:50

to be a lie then therefore this case

17:53

cannot exist Judge Turner said

17:55

I'll say to you again absolutely

17:58

denied. Michael Cohen is a

18:00

witness. I don't know if he's the key witness. I

18:02

don't know if I would call any of them a key witness. There's

18:05

enough documentation on

18:07

this case to fill this courtroom and

18:09

there's plenty of witnesses that are

18:11

going to come to the stand. Absolutely

18:14

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PrincetonReview.com and get ready to

18:51

rise above the competition. It's

18:55

funny because you really came to the same

18:57

bottom line as I did. You

19:00

know, I always tell people about you,

19:02

Michael, whatever

19:04

he may have said or done in the past

19:06

has always been strictly

19:09

honest with me. And

19:12

I got asked on television, I think this

19:14

week, well, why did he plead

19:16

guilty to something

19:19

he didn't do if he's so honest? And

19:21

I pointed them to Judge

19:24

Jed Rakoff's book,

19:27

Why the Innocent Plead Guilty

19:29

as a Criminal Defense Lawyer. It's part of the

19:32

systemic injustice, the pressure on

19:34

family members often

19:36

on family members

19:38

that leads to that.

19:40

Well, you know, you know, you know the story on

19:42

that. First of all, the full title on that. Yeah,

19:45

the full title on that book, though, is Why

19:47

the Innocent Plead Guilty and

19:49

the Guilty Go Free. I read it when

19:51

I was in Otisville. And just

19:54

for my listeners, I mean, because, you know, this podcast

19:56

is growing by leaps and bounds.

19:59

I want every...

19:59

I

20:01

was given 48 hours

20:04

from Friday at 5.30 p.m.

20:07

to Monday morning, 9 a.m.,

20:10

to either come in and plead guilty

20:12

or the Southern District of New York

20:14

was filing an 80-page indictment

20:17

that was going to include my wife. Terrible.

20:19

Not right.

20:20

So when people say, well,

20:22

why so, that's

20:25

the explanation there. And then

20:27

I

20:28

thought you made a very

20:32

good point on

20:34

the other question you were asked about

20:36

the way

20:38

Donald Trump gives instructions,

20:41

like a mob boss, you testify.

20:44

So the bottom line

20:46

is, this is not a jury

20:48

trial.

20:50

And that

20:53

may be because of Donald Trump's habits

20:56

in retaining lawyers. It's

20:58

not clear legally

20:59

if these attorneys were entitled to a jury

21:02

trial, but they didn't ask for one. So we'll

21:04

never know.

21:07

We'll never know if Trump could

21:09

have had a jury trial here. This judge

21:11

wasn't going to fall for those kinds

21:13

of

21:14

shenanigans, and obviously

21:16

he didn't.

21:17

Now, they're in a lot of trouble

21:21

in front of Judge

21:25

Anorgon and Goron. They're

21:29

in a lot of trouble in front of Judge Anorgon

21:33

because he

21:35

has already granted partial

21:37

summary judgment, and

21:40

the evidence that has come in is

21:42

overwhelming evidence

21:44

of

21:47

Donald Trump's civil

21:49

violations that are alleged here.

21:52

And this case could – now, there's

21:54

going to be – he's already ordered

21:58

that the – Certificates

22:01

of doing business for the New York businesses,

22:03

many of them be revoked. That's

22:06

going to be, there's been an emergency appeal that's

22:08

going to be addressed. And

22:11

he's in, I think Trump is facing the

22:13

reason he's showing up. He's paying more attention

22:15

to this trial than he is to any other

22:17

proceeding.

22:19

Because so much of his identity is

22:21

wrapped up in these businesses in those

22:23

certificates and being able to do

22:25

business. And because he's cheap as

22:27

can be. And I mean, if the guy's got to

22:29

have a $250 million, that's

22:32

going to kill him. That's why

22:34

he may not always have the finest caliber

22:37

of lawyer. So

22:40

let's just go back for a quick second. And I want my

22:42

listeners to understand what happened

22:44

there. Alina Haber

22:46

was the attorney who was

22:50

questioning me. And

22:54

the questions

22:55

that she was asking me are all

22:58

yes or no. You can't say

23:00

anything else other than yes

23:03

or no, which makes it different, very

23:05

difficult because doing anything

23:08

with, that has to do with Donald. It's

23:11

not always a yes or no answer. I know that

23:13

that's hard to say. It's either yes or

23:15

no. That's not true. So what happened

23:18

is she had asked me whether

23:20

or not I told the truth

23:23

when I spoke to the Senate Permanent Select

23:25

Committee on Intelligence in 2018.

23:29

And I told them that Donald,

23:31

did Donald Trump specifically

23:33

state to you that

23:36

you should

23:37

go and inflate the numbers

23:40

on his statement of financial condition?

23:43

And I said, well, no.

23:47

And that's a true answer. They kept wanting

23:49

to say, it's crazy. They want me to,

23:53

I don't know what they wanted me to do. I said

23:55

no. But then on redirect

23:58

by the New York Attorney General, by the

23:59

prosecutor,

24:03

clearly there was something that you wanted to

24:05

talk about. There's something you wanted

24:07

to say that explains.

24:11

Go ahead Mr. Cohen, explain to the court.

24:13

And what I said was, this is

24:16

not new for me when I say,

24:18

and most people acknowledge, that

24:20

Donald Trump speaks like a mob boss.

24:23

He did not specifically,

24:25

because that was the word, specifically.

24:29

He did not specifically come out

24:31

and say, Michael,

24:33

Allen, Weisselberg, I

24:36

want you to inflate the numbers on my statement

24:38

of financial condition to $6 billion. Go

24:43

into the back, figure it out, and come back to me.

24:45

He did not do that. What he would

24:47

do is say, well,

24:50

this says I'm only worth $5.5 billion. In

24:53

fact, I'm worth at least $6 billion, probably $8

24:56

billion.

24:58

Go figure it out and come back.

25:00

That's what he's saying. So is he specifically

25:03

telling us to inflate it? No. Do

25:06

we know what he wants? Yes. And

25:09

how did we know that that's what he wanted? Because

25:11

the fucker signed off on it. He

25:13

signed off on it. So you don't have

25:16

to be specifically like a mob boss saying,

25:18

hey, you know, I want you to go kill Joe,

25:20

right? Or I want you to go kill Bob.

25:24

No. You could turn around and you could, there

25:26

are many ways to think, hey, you got

25:28

to go take care of Bob. Go take

25:30

care of Joe. They know what

25:32

he means. They don't mean,

25:35

hey, go to his house and help him fix his

25:38

garbage disposal. They

25:40

know exactly what he means because

25:42

they've been around the guy long enough

25:45

to understand the code. And

25:47

that's what I explained. And

25:49

that sent Trump into a

25:52

tizzy, right? And then all of

25:54

a sudden after they moved,

25:56

because these three

25:58

idiots.

25:59

legal jerk-offs,

26:02

they sold Trump a bill of goods

26:05

that he was gonna get, a directed

26:08

verdict, there's no way that the

26:10

judge could say no. And when the

26:12

judge laughed at him, when in

26:15

court on, started to laugh,

26:17

and he goes, denied,

26:20

absolutely denied. Trump

26:23

smashes his hands on the table,

26:26

throws his hands, picks himself up, you

26:28

know, starts to walk out, secret

26:30

service was completely thrown off,

26:32

they go running after him. I mean, this

26:35

was really a shit show. Ultimately,

26:38

and I still have not been able to find

26:40

anybody that knows what really went on, but

26:42

Trump didn't leave the building right away. You

26:45

would have thought that after that, he's picking

26:47

himself. The judge wanted to see him. And

26:50

he came back, they had him in a green

26:53

room, in a waiting room, for over

26:55

an hour. Interesting. So, he

26:57

was, yeah, he was brought back. I

27:00

suspect, and especially

27:02

during the same day, as great

27:04

as my testimony turned out to be,

27:07

the guy who really stole the anti-Trump

27:10

show was Trump himself,

27:13

by going ahead and violating

27:16

the most limited gag order

27:19

that may have ever have been issued

27:21

in the history of gag orders. You

27:23

cannot talk about my

27:26

staff or witnesses,

27:29

and you just, otherwise, I'm

27:32

gonna hold you in contempt. But

27:34

like the petulant, idiotic

27:36

child that he is, he did

27:38

it anyway. And then here's the beauty of

27:40

it. Chutten, I'm sorry, and

27:43

Goron, wasn't having

27:45

any of this bullshit. And so he told

27:47

the lard ass to put his fat ass

27:49

on the witness stand. And

27:52

he made him under oath,

27:54

swear,

27:57

under the penalties of perjury, as

27:59

to he was talking about when

28:01

he went outside the courtroom and

28:04

decided to speak to the gaggle

28:06

of reporters. And he turns around

28:08

and he goes, I wasn't talking about your

28:11

law clerk, I was talking about Michael

28:13

Cohen. And the judge

28:15

didn't buy that bullshit. So

28:17

here's the crazy thing, not only did Trump

28:20

lie to the judge while on

28:22

the stand under oath,

28:26

Cai's,

28:28

Robert,

28:29

Haber,

28:31

from the reports that I read were

28:33

all swearing up and down that Donald was telling

28:35

the truth and he was talking about me. So

28:38

these fuckers who keep calling me a liar

28:41

and a perjurer and so on, who's

28:43

the one that's doing it? They

28:46

are. Well,

28:51

Michael, I've done

28:57

criminal law

28:59

practice for more than three decades.

29:01

And all you can ask is when somebody

29:03

gets involved with

29:06

a bunch of crooks, as you were,

29:08

is that they may commend, they do their

29:11

best to tell the truth

29:13

and do the right thing.

29:15

These cross-examinations

29:18

are often dramatic.

29:22

You stuck to your

29:24

guns. The judge

29:27

clearly was not swayed by their

29:29

arguments.

29:30

And I think they're going to suffer

29:32

a series of additional losses in this

29:34

case. But here's the most amazing thing. The

29:38

headlines were not about Michael Cohen,

29:40

this, that, and the other. The headlines

29:42

were about Donald Trump's lie and

29:45

his punishment that day. And

29:47

he was furious about it. Why? And

29:50

it was his rage at you that came

29:52

into this.

29:54

He got out there and he says the

29:56

judge's very part of it.

30:00

partisan, where's the effect? The judge

30:02

is very partisan, but the person sitting

30:04

next to him is even more partisan. Now,

30:07

the person sitting next to him was his law clerk.

30:09

You were sitting a distance away,

30:11

a little below, right? And

30:14

then he says, what are you talking about? He says,

30:16

oh, I was referring to Cohen. And he

30:19

had to swear under oath.

30:21

And the judge says, you, that is

30:23

not credible. In other words,

30:26

Trump lied. And he fined him $10,000

30:29

under the gag order for attacking his clerk.

30:32

And

30:32

even more important than all that, Trump

30:36

is digging his own

30:38

grave because as he continues to

30:40

do this, he's going to face more and more serious

30:43

consequences,

30:44

including eventually the judge is going to get

30:46

fed up and say, you got to need to spend the night

30:48

in jail. Well, it's funny because

30:51

I think the judge's exact words to

30:53

Trump, I don't find you a credible

30:55

witness. So it's funny because the

30:58

previous, literally two days, 16

31:01

hours of them calling me

31:03

a liar. Look, let's be very

31:05

clear about one thing. Donald

31:08

Trump, and you know, this is being the

31:11

lead attorney in the second

31:14

impeachment of Trump. First impeachment.

31:16

How many, oh, I'm sorry. The first impeachment of Trump.

31:19

How many lies did Trump

31:21

tell

31:22

during his four year administration?

31:27

My understanding is it's over 35,000.

31:30

They actually stopped counting because

31:33

the number didn't even matter anymore. Over 35,000

31:35

lies. That

31:41

was the assessment of

31:44

the Washington Post. What

31:46

can you say to that? What can you say

31:48

to that? What

31:51

do you do? I don't know what you say to it, but

31:53

what you do if you Donald Trump, lie

31:55

more. You deflect. Lie more.

31:59

Every single person that has

32:02

now come out and stated

32:04

that Donald is not telling the

32:06

truth, whether it's on the

32:09

January 6th insurrection,

32:11

whether it's on the voting,

32:14

whether it's on anything, whether it's

32:16

on his statement of financial condition,

32:19

liar, liar, liar,

32:21

liar, and he keeps getting his minions

32:23

to say the same thing. But you know, you brought up a topic

32:26

that I just want to ask you. And

32:29

you can't, you know Trump's

32:31

nature because you've

32:33

been around D.C. long

32:35

enough. Do you see Trump

32:37

continuing to violate

32:40

Judge Inguarron's gag order?

32:43

And if so,

32:45

clearly the fines have

32:48

no effect on him at all. $5,000, $10,000, it

32:53

doesn't mean shifting him at all.

32:56

So what do you think, I mean, do you

32:59

think that Judge Inguarron will

33:02

turn to, let's say, real

33:04

contempt? Eventually,

33:07

yes, I do. Eventually, for sure.

33:10

He is not going to, he's a tough

33:12

cookie, we saw that. He's not

33:14

going to allow Donald Trump to continue

33:16

to attack court staff.

33:19

And if Trump

33:22

persists,

33:23

he's going to end up spending

33:26

some time up in

33:28

an overnight

33:31

room. And let me tell you, it ain't going

33:33

to be like Mar-a-Lago.

33:37

It's going to have bars on it. So yes,

33:39

I think that is coming. Now maybe Trump

33:43

doesn't give a damn about $5,000 or $10,000, except

33:46

he's so cheap, Michael, he's so cheap, so

33:49

maybe he does. But I think that, you

33:51

know,

33:52

Trump knows where this is headed. He may

33:54

think it helps him.

33:56

He may think the mugshot

33:58

helped him led to one of his biggest.

33:59

biggest fundraising days.

34:01

He may think being stepped back, as we

34:03

put it, is

34:06

good for him, good for his brand.

34:09

But I do think that's where we're headed. And

34:11

I think the DC judge needs to turn

34:14

her gag order back on. She's paused

34:16

it pending additional

34:18

legal considerations. Stay, it's

34:20

called. No, turn

34:22

that back on. He's attacking Mark Meadows.

34:26

He's attacking witnesses. He's

34:28

attacking people

34:31

right and left.

34:32

No. He's attacking

34:35

witnesses.

34:37

He's attacking people

34:42

right and left. No. So

34:45

that's what I wanted to ask you, because the

34:48

gag order is not just,

34:50

I mean, it is a limited gag order,

34:52

but it wasn't just for the judge's

34:55

law clerk and staff. It's

34:57

for witnesses also.

34:59

This

35:00

Mandarin Mussolini scumbag

35:04

walks out the courts, the court

35:06

doors, and the first thing he's doing

35:08

is he's attacking me again. When is

35:12

somebody going to start to protect the

35:15

witnesses? You have to be insane

35:17

to even accept a fucking

35:20

subpoena. If the court's not

35:22

going to protect you, look, say

35:25

whatever you want about Donald. He's

35:27

insane. He's

35:30

loose-lipped. He doesn't care about

35:33

the law. He's willing to violate even

35:35

the gag orders. Fine.

35:38

That's fine. But he's doing

35:40

so at the expense and at the

35:42

detriment of witnesses.

35:47

It can't be allowed, and that's why

35:49

Judge Chutkin

35:50

needs to follow the toughness

35:53

of Judge N'Goran

35:55

and turn this, turn

35:57

her gag order back on. That

36:00

was direct witness intimidation

36:03

when he told Mark

36:05

Meadows

36:07

that, you

36:10

know, first he praises Meadows,

36:12

right?

36:14

He's nice to him. And

36:16

then he tells Meadows

36:19

in the text, then he says,

36:21

but anybody who, but

36:23

all caps, when

36:25

you think about it, after

36:28

being hounded like a dog for

36:31

years, told you'll be going to jail. If

36:33

you say bad things

36:35

about Trump, we won't put you in prison.

36:38

If you make up really horrible stuff,

36:40

we'll put up a statue. Some

36:42

people would make that deal, but they are weaklings

36:45

and cowards and so bad for the future.

36:48

Well, we know Mark Meadows did make that

36:50

deal. So he's attacking

36:52

him.

36:53

And that is a threat when you have somebody

36:56

with the power of Donald Trump,

36:58

when you have the man who

37:00

has did the will be wild

37:02

tweet about January 6, summon

37:05

the mob. Then

37:07

he lit the fire with his

37:09

speech on the ellipse and he threw the burning

37:12

torch at the

37:14

Capitol where it became a conflagration.

37:18

Those social media postings

37:20

are very, very dangerous

37:23

and everybody understands what he's

37:25

doing there. That's a shot across the bow

37:28

against Meadows. And I think it's terribly

37:30

wrong. And it is. But

37:33

the point I was really trying to make is

37:36

what he what he does is he

37:38

didn't just do it to Mark Meadows.

37:40

He did it outside the courtroom

37:44

about me. He did it before I was even

37:46

coming in on the second day to

37:49

sit on the stand.

37:51

And while I respect the judge

37:54

for really holding Donald more than

37:56

anybody else to accountability,

37:59

yes, he did.

37:59

it for his law clerk because

38:02

as Judge Angoron said, the

38:06

things you're doing Donald, it's

38:08

going to get somebody hurt or worse,

38:10

killed. What about the witnesses?

38:12

This is the point I've been making all along.

38:15

It's something we've been talking about now on

38:17

Mayor Culpin, on my political beat down.

38:19

It's something I talk about on the press. I

38:22

was on with MSNBC, with Nicole Wallace,

38:24

I was on with Reverend Al, with

38:27

Laura Coates on CNN. I've

38:30

been with on ... I'm like, my safety

38:32

is in jeopardy because

38:35

of Donald Trump's mouth and

38:37

it shouldn't be that way. And Judge Angoron

38:40

should have really ripped him a new asshole,

38:42

certainly much bigger than what he did.

38:45

Look, let me give you another one. So not

38:47

only does he attack me in one of his

38:49

latest ones, he attacks Maggie Haberman

38:52

too. He writes, the New York Times

38:54

and a third-rate reporter named Maggie ... You

38:56

saw that? Known as Crooked

38:59

H. Flunky, who I don't speak to, going

39:01

out of their way. That's

39:03

actually an old one. That was actually a good

39:06

one, where he actually is going out there to

39:08

destroy me and our relationship

39:10

and so on. I mean, there's so many

39:12

of these emails where it's

39:15

just one attack on me

39:18

after another, and

39:20

after another. And he just

39:23

doesn't know how to stop.

39:25

But he has now another one

39:27

against me and with Maggie and

39:29

this one. Someone

39:32

has to turn around and explain

39:34

to him, it's not going to be his lawyers.

39:37

I don't know who the hell it's going to be, but

39:39

somebody has to do it and they need

39:42

to do it ASAP. Because

39:45

he actually, again, speaking like

39:47

the mob boss that he is, he

39:49

wants somebody to get hurt.

39:52

That's who he is. That's what he wants. That seems to be the danger.

39:55

That is the danger. And I think that

39:57

was a direct threat.

39:59

that he issued against Meadows.

40:02

And I think he was playing games with the judge's

40:04

law clerk.

40:06

Uh, and the judge called him on it. I

40:08

like judge in Goran. Uh,

40:11

he's tough and you know, he didn't have some

40:13

long litigation process.

40:15

The first time Trump attacked his law

40:18

clerk, he immediately called

40:20

everybody before him, slapped the gag

40:22

order down and he's enforced

40:24

it ever since. I

40:27

like that. And it's escalating. That's

40:30

the way that can be a lesson for

40:32

everybody.

40:34

You know, uh, that's how,

40:36

but I do think that Trump has the most

40:38

formidable set of, uh,

40:41

justice seekers

40:44

and officials when you look

40:47

around. Um, and I'll

40:49

tell you,

40:50

there's some exceptions, but judge,

40:53

uh, and Goran judge Chutkin

40:56

has already said Trump is not,

40:58

uh, presidents are not king and Trump is

41:00

not president. She's ruled against them before.

41:03

Those are good judges.

41:05

Um, the judge McAfee,

41:08

some people were wondering that the guy

41:10

who has the Georgia case, Oh my God,

41:12

he's

41:12

a former prosecutor. He's only been on

41:14

the bench for a few months. He runs that courtroom.

41:17

Like he's been there for 50 years.

41:19

He's been terrific.

41:21

Um, I think the

41:24

one, uh, place where there

41:26

have been some, uh, questions,

41:30

uh, about the judge,

41:32

uh, is, uh, the

41:35

one who has the Mar-a-Lago

41:38

classified documents case, Eileen

41:40

Cannon, but still she

41:42

has not relaxed her May

41:44

trial date.

41:46

That will be the test. Will she stick

41:48

with that date or not?

41:50

Uh, so, uh, you know, it's

41:52

some very good judges and then

41:54

look at the prosecutors.

41:56

Um, Oh, I

41:58

forgot judge Marshawn. the Alvin Bragg

42:00

case, he's been terrific.

42:02

Trump has attacked him. And then the

42:04

prosecutors are very good.

42:07

You have Tish James who's doing

42:09

the civil case. She's in

42:11

New York AG, very tough, very strong.

42:15

Jack Smith is a ferocious

42:20

prosecutor, known as one of the

42:22

toughest. He was prosecuting

42:25

war criminals

42:27

in the Hague. He's well suited

42:29

to go after Trump. Then

42:34

you have Fannie Willis. She's

42:36

indomitable. She's racking up the guilty

42:39

pleas. And

42:42

Bragg is terrific. I

42:44

mean, these are some excellent, excellent

42:46

judges and prosecutors. So

42:48

Donald

42:49

Trump is meeting his match, Michael.

42:51

Yeah.

42:52

So let me then ask you this

42:55

because clearly Donald

42:57

can't control himself in this case.

43:00

How does that bode for when the

43:03

criminal trial start in earnest?

43:06

I mean, look, as you've

43:08

said, and everybody hopefully understands,

43:10

this New York attorney general civil

43:14

fraud case is civil.

43:16

This is all right now about how

43:18

much? Yeah. This is a money

43:21

case. This is not about, this

43:24

is not about a prison or anything.

43:27

You know which ones are the other four that

43:29

you just mentioned? Yeah. Those

43:31

are all criminal cases. I

43:34

don't see any

43:36

of the judges in the

43:38

four criminal cases putting up

43:40

with any of this bullshit. Yeah.

43:44

Yeah, I think you're right. And

43:47

that's why I think Donald Trump, even

43:49

before conviction, is probably

43:51

going to be facing

43:53

some time to think about

43:58

his dangerous

43:59

Ugly,

44:02

and in my view, contemptuous.

44:07

Contemptuous in the legal sense. They violate

44:09

the law. And

44:11

he can be punished, including in

44:13

the extreme cases where you build this kind of

44:16

a record. That's what Judge

44:19

and Goren is doing, and he's doing

44:21

it so brilliantly. He's

44:23

building a record so when he says, well,

44:25

you're going to have to spend the night in and

44:29

there'll be an immediate appeal to

44:32

the to the second department, right? The

44:34

second department takes the appeals out of

44:36

that court. The

44:41

appellate judges will say, no, there's

44:43

a record here. We're not going to give Donald Trump

44:45

a break. So that's what's

44:47

going on. And of course,

44:50

what's remarkable about our conversation

44:52

is,

44:53

look, I've litigated a lot of cases involving

44:56

Donald Trump. I've opened

44:59

hundreds of files, legal matters

45:01

involving him. Everything

45:03

from the impeachment to the emodiments

45:06

case to kind of litigation

45:09

against his administration to

45:12

amicus briefs and many of the major

45:14

criminal matters. But

45:16

you're

45:18

in the middle of it because you

45:20

stepped up and you did the right thing. And it's

45:22

not pretty. It's not easy.

45:24

I'm sure that was not fun being on

45:27

the stand, but you're doing your best to

45:29

do the right thing. And

45:31

I admire that tremendously,

45:34

Michael. I really do. And of course, it's remarkable

45:37

that you have me on your podcast where we talk

45:39

about it because it's living history.

45:42

Yeah. Well, look, one of the things

45:45

that we were trying to get introduced, interestingly

45:47

enough, and the judge

45:50

didn't allow it in, which I was a little bit surprised

45:52

at because Alina

45:54

Haber spent an incredible

45:57

amount of time going through.

46:00

the SDNY's memorandum,

46:02

Sentencing Memorandum. What

46:05

we wanted to do is introduce

46:07

my Sentencing Memorandum. And

46:10

I would ask all of my listeners, Google,

46:14

Patrillo, P-E-T-R-I-L-L-O,

46:17

Sentencing Memo on behalf

46:19

of Michael Cohen. And if you look to like

46:22

pages 15 through 18, it

46:25

talks about the

46:28

tax evasion. It talks about

46:30

how there are elements in

46:32

law to tax evasion

46:35

and that not one of those elements existed

46:37

in my case. And the HELOC

46:40

is even stupider. That

46:42

was the, I mean, that was the

46:44

sixth count that was brought against

46:47

me, where I had 20% of

46:50

debt on my property and that the property

46:53

was worth 10 times the amount to the

46:55

HELOC. How could the bank

46:58

have been misrepresented when

47:00

I'm not even the one that filled it out? It was filled out

47:03

by, you know, by my banker, this

47:05

guy Gary Farrow over First Republic.

47:07

And I had had a HELOC on the

47:09

same property for a decade

47:12

before that. The whole thing is just absolutely

47:14

crazy. And so we were trying to get that

47:17

introduced. Chris Ties gets

47:19

up and, you know, you didn't know who was actually doing

47:21

what. All three of them, they all wanted

47:23

to make their statements. Why? Because

47:26

they're all playing to a party of one. But

47:29

you know what? Done with that.

47:32

I want to go back to what's going

47:34

on in the other matter. Right. And

47:37

I want to talk for a second about the plea deals. Yeah.

47:40

George Aiken. George Aiken. By

47:43

Jenna Ellis and Sidney Powell.

47:46

Because that appears, I mean, it's just

47:48

as ominous as the one that

47:51

Mark Meadows pled to. So

47:53

if you would, just with me and my listeners.

47:56

He doesn't plead. He's cooperating. Correct.

47:59

I apologize. You're right. He's cooperating. So

48:01

just discuss with me, if you would, what

48:04

their testimony could expose Trump

48:06

to. Well, it's very interesting because

48:08

when you put together

48:12

Powell

48:15

and Chesbrough

48:18

for starters,

48:20

you pull the rug out from under

48:23

both legs of Trump's defense.

48:26

And then while

48:28

he's wobbling, Ellis really knocks

48:32

the knockout, strikes the knockout

48:35

punch. You know, the attack

48:37

on the 2020 election

48:40

by the Ku Ku Ku

48:42

crew,

48:43

that's

48:46

a we refer to that as a Cohenism.

48:49

Tried to equal your

48:51

rhetorical splendor. The

48:55

attack on the 2020 election

48:57

was based on one

49:00

to sit on two legs. One

49:02

was the facts, Donald Trump claiming

49:05

he actually won the election.

49:08

The other one was the law. He

49:10

says, you know, because I actually won

49:12

the election or because there's these questions,

49:15

I can get these phony electoral certificates

49:19

and use them to pressure Mike Pence

49:21

to

49:23

not to recognize the actual

49:25

winner on January 6th.

49:27

So

49:30

that's factual and illegal. Well,

49:35

Sidney Powell was the number one

49:37

purveyor

49:38

of the false factual

49:40

assertion that Donald Trump actually won

49:43

or that there were serious questions.

49:45

He didn't win and there were no questions.

49:47

She's now pled

49:49

guilty. So that's a pulls

49:51

one leg pulls the rug out

49:53

from under one leg. Then the other leg,

49:55

the law. Ken Chasrow was

49:57

the architect while he's. guilty

50:00

to what conspiracy to file

50:02

false documents, the electoral

50:05

certificate.

50:06

So that pulls the rug out from under the

50:08

other leg. Then comes

50:11

Jenna Ellis along and she

50:13

alone among the three, she says, I'm

50:15

going to provide full cooperation.

50:18

And she volunteered to the judge. She was

50:20

misled. So

50:23

I think that she will be a devastating

50:26

witness against Donald Trump when she gets

50:28

on the stand and she says, no, that

50:30

was not true. I was misled.

50:34

I no longer stand by that. I wouldn't

50:36

have done it if I had known. She

50:39

cried. She was emotional.

50:42

I mean, that is going to

50:44

really hit a jury.

50:47

But it's not only

50:49

Donald

50:49

Trump that she's going to harm

50:52

and these other witnesses will testify

50:54

to. It's also Rudy

50:56

Giuliani because these are three lawyers

50:59

who worked for a fourth lawyer

51:01

who was in charge, Rudy Giuliani

51:04

and Ellis,

51:06

cheesebrow, Powell. I mean,

51:08

Giuliani must be

51:11

really squirming because

51:14

they can devastate him. But

51:19

reportedly, the

51:21

prosecution isn't interested in doing

51:24

a plea with him yet. He's

51:26

going to have to agree to jail time, in my

51:28

view, if he wants a plea. So I think

51:30

it's bad for Trump. It's bad for Giuliani.

51:33

It's bad for Eastman. And

51:35

Meadows had better cut a deal

51:38

in Georgia because they hang him too.

51:40

Yeah. So let me ask you a question then because he

51:43

brought up an interesting topic

51:45

right about cutting deals.

51:48

North, do

51:49

you see a scenario

51:52

where

51:53

you ultimately see

51:55

Trump realizing that

51:58

he's fucked? He's going to prison. It's

52:00

gonna be found guilty if

52:02

he lets these cases go to trial,

52:05

but instead

52:07

cuts his own deal, pleads

52:10

guilty for whatever

52:12

the deal may ultimately be. Do

52:14

you think that Jack Smith would even

52:17

entertain a Trump deal at

52:19

this point, or do you think that Smith,

52:21

because look, you said it first, he

52:24

is a ferocious prosecutor.

52:27

Do you think he's just gonna want to push the case

52:29

all the way? No. If

52:31

Trump is willing to

52:33

accept jail time and plead guilty

52:36

and accept responsibility, Jack Smith

52:38

would consider a plea.

52:40

But Michael,

52:42

I know Trump from litigating against

52:44

him. You really know him. What are

52:46

the odds that he's gonna do that

52:49

before the election? Zero,

52:52

in my opinion. Zero.

52:54

Yeah, I would say the answer

52:57

to that is slim to

52:59

none and slim left the building.

53:01

Yeah. I mean,

53:03

this is his only way out. He

53:06

sees the presidential run.

53:09

He sees the presidency as

53:12

his get out of jail free card. That's

53:14

it. And without it, he

53:16

realizes that his ass is cooked

53:20

and he's gonna lose everything. And

53:23

so specifically, forgetting about losing

53:25

just all of his money, he's gonna

53:27

also lose his freedom. Yeah, totally. Totally.

53:31

There's zero chance. So let me give you the sense. Zero.

53:34

Wait.

53:35

Zero until after

53:37

the election.

53:39

If Trump loses the election and

53:41

if there's no Republican who wins with

53:44

the hope of pardoning Trump,

53:46

then he probably,

53:49

then it becomes a non-zero.

53:52

I don't know what the odds are, but

53:55

it's not as long as he

53:57

thinks he can get in the White House or another Republican.

53:59

can,

54:01

or a third party candidate can, get

54:03

in there and pardon him.

54:05

He's not pleading

54:07

to anything.

54:09

But when all

54:11

odds are

54:14

against him, when any chance

54:17

is removed from the table

54:20

and you have another term of Biden, you

54:22

know, at that point he might say, yes, I'll

54:25

plead. The problem is

54:26

that that will be post conviction. There

54:29

won't be very good deals.

54:31

Right.

54:32

That's true. So then let me ask you

54:34

it this way. As the

54:36

prosecutors continue to work their way

54:38

up the food chain, right, because they've

54:41

gotten so many of the minor players

54:43

to flip, then going after

54:45

the bigger fish, I mean, they've

54:48

largely succeeded now in

54:50

that, right, with Sidney Powell

54:52

and with Chesbro and Jen Ellis.

54:55

Do you see a scenario

54:58

where Rudy Kaludy, drunken Giuliani,

55:02

really

55:03

faced with going to prison for

55:05

a very long time? You see right now,

55:08

he's still walking around. He's

55:11

still carrying Donald's

55:13

dirty water. Yeah. When

55:16

he is ultimately going to be confronted

55:19

with going to prison for a long time

55:22

and Trump refusing

55:25

to fucking help him and to help to

55:27

defray legal costs. Do you

55:29

think Rudy will flip on Trump

55:32

and ultimately become a star witness?

55:35

And if so, what

55:37

does this then do to Trump?

55:40

Rudy Giuliani is going to face

55:42

increasing pressure to plead. This Troika

55:45

of Ellis,

55:47

who he described as his number two.

55:49

Think of how much he has on him.

55:51

Chesbro worked with him. Powell worked

55:53

with him. That's going to put the pressure on

55:55

him. He's running out of money. He's having a

55:58

lot of other problems.

55:59

He can't pay his bills, he can't hang on

56:02

to lawyers.

56:03

He got some

56:05

country lawyer representing him who

56:08

lives three hours outside

56:10

of Atlanta now in this criminal case.

56:12

The pressure is going to be in too intense.

56:15

Giuliani is going to flip, and that

56:17

is really going to put the screws to Donald

56:20

Trump.

56:20

But still,

56:22

Trump is not going to budge until

56:24

you get past November 2024. He's

56:27

going to be playing for that prospect

56:29

that a Republican gets elected

56:32

and pardons him maybe. He's a Republican

56:35

candidate. He pardons himself

56:37

for orders DOJ to drop

56:40

the case federally. If he were to

56:42

plead in the state case, it would compromise

56:45

that federal play.

56:46

So don't expect him to do anything until

56:49

after November 2024. After

56:51

that, I think

56:53

the prospect of Giuliani

56:56

turning on him, all these others, there'll be

56:58

many more cooperators in the state

57:01

case by then. There'll be others

57:03

like Meadows cooperating in the federal

57:06

case. It becomes a non-zero

57:10

chance, as I say, that

57:12

he cooperates now. Until

57:14

he actually, if he loses the Republican

57:17

nomination, turn

57:19

to a third party race,

57:22

Michael Cohen

57:24

knows that better than

57:26

I do, as I've said. I will say

57:29

this,

57:30

Michael, about your Trump

57:32

prognostication abilities.

57:34

So people should listen to Michael when

57:37

he makes

57:38

an analysis of what Trump is going to do.

57:41

It's funny, because you're not the first person

57:44

who I've heard say that. If he doesn't

57:46

get the nomination, he's going to go

57:48

third party. So

57:51

let me give you my perspective on it.

57:54

I don't think so. If he,

57:57

now he may threaten it so

57:59

that no other Republican or

58:01

the Republican Party has

58:03

no choice but to accept him

58:05

as the nominee. Again, at

58:08

least now he is a 50-50 shot

58:10

of becoming president and saving his

58:13

ass. First of all,

58:16

which would be the third party? Going for

58:18

the Independence Party? I don't think so. That's

58:20

already taken. Right?

58:23

What's he gonna go for? The Green Party? Here's

58:26

the reason why I say I'm not buying

58:29

it. Because in order to get on the

58:31

ballot in all the states,

58:34

especially now as a

58:36

Green Party or whatever party, the Donald

58:39

Party, whatever third party that

58:41

it's going to be, you're gonna

58:43

have to spend an enormous

58:46

amount of money. Now

58:48

people may turn around listening to this and say,

58:50

yeah but he has that ability. He's

58:53

already raised and has money

58:55

sitting in the kitty. Well here's the

58:57

difference. A lot of the

58:59

money that's sitting is in the super

59:02

PAC. And if you read

59:04

the fine print on the

59:07

super PAC, you know what it says? 90%

59:12

of all monies received to the super

59:14

PAC. Donald has

59:17

total discretion over

59:19

that money. It does not need to be

59:22

used for political purpose.

59:24

It doesn't need... He can keep

59:26

it. That's how he's paying to fix his airplane

59:29

or to fly around on the aircraft. 90

59:32

cents of every dollar that these

59:35

idiots are giving to him in the PAC. Basically

59:38

you're giving it to Donald to keep for his pocket.

59:41

He is not going to spend that

59:43

money which he considers his

59:45

and that could be the only money that he ultimately

59:48

gets left with. He's not

59:50

going to spend that in order to

59:52

get onto a third party,

59:54

you know, as a third

59:56

party nominee when he knows

59:59

that there is zero. zero chance that

1:00:01

he could win, zero.

1:00:03

You were the first person to say

1:00:06

to me when I was interviewing you in the

1:00:08

earliest days of the impeachment at

1:00:10

the beginning of 2019, because

1:00:13

I wanted to impeach

1:00:16

on some of these

1:00:18

the 2016 election

1:00:21

interference through hush money payments,

1:00:23

you have evidence on that, some of the financial

1:00:26

frauds, particularly using his White

1:00:28

House position to perpetuate his financial

1:00:31

empire on such

1:00:33

a

1:00:33

false,

1:00:35

allegedly fraudulent basis.

1:00:39

I interviewed Michael, I

1:00:41

came to New York and I always, I love to

1:00:43

tell the story. Michael said to me, Norm,

1:00:45

one other thing you got to watch out for.

1:00:47

You're not asking me the right question.

1:00:50

What is that Michael? I'm

1:00:52

paraphrasing. He says, you've got

1:00:54

to watch out for the 2024 election. That

1:00:58

guy is not going to leave the White House willingly.

1:01:01

We're going to have, and I'm paraphrasing, non-peaceful

1:01:04

transfer of power. I put the exact words

1:01:07

down in my book about the impeachment, a

1:01:09

case for the American people, because they were so important

1:01:12

and it really got me thinking. And later on

1:01:14

when I was doing all my work on democracy

1:01:16

protection, in part it was because Michael

1:01:19

warned me. So folks,

1:01:21

when he talks,

1:01:23

listen.

1:01:24

So Norm, let me jump

1:01:26

into something else here for a sec, because I want to talk about

1:01:30

section three of the 14th amendment,

1:01:32

which says that a public official is

1:01:34

not eligible to assume public

1:01:37

office if they, and the quote is,

1:01:39

engaged in insurrection

1:01:41

or rebellion against the United

1:01:44

States. Do you see any

1:01:46

possible scenario where this

1:01:48

would keep Trump off the ballot?

1:01:50

That will be, we will know much more

1:01:53

about this by the next

1:01:55

time I'm on your podcast, Michael,

1:01:57

because that's the question that's being litigated.

1:01:59

in several places around the country

1:02:02

now, the first trial will be in

1:02:05

Colorado starting shortly. Certainly

1:02:08

the things that Donald Trump did

1:02:10

were as bad as the

1:02:13

acts of insurrection that some of those

1:02:15

who were barred from

1:02:18

office in the 19th century

1:02:20

after the Civil War.

1:02:23

What Trump did is as much

1:02:25

an insurrection as what they did. But there's

1:02:27

a lot of legal uncertainties and

1:02:30

it's important

1:02:32

that it's being tested.

1:02:34

That question is really for the courts, so

1:02:36

we should keep a very sharp eye out on

1:02:39

how they adjudicate it. But I have written

1:02:41

about

1:02:42

the powerful fit

1:02:44

between the 14th Amendment and

1:02:46

the conduct of Donald Trump.

1:02:49

The January 6th Committee thought DOJ

1:02:51

should prosecute him for insurrection. And

1:02:54

you have some fantastic lawyers

1:02:56

who are litigating this matter. My

1:02:59

former colleagues at CRU, which I

1:03:01

co-founded, CRU is bringing the case. Now

1:03:03

we're just going to have to see what happens. Yeah,

1:03:06

and so look, as the hour comes

1:03:09

very quickly, you know that whenever

1:03:11

we spend time together it always goes by quickly.

1:03:14

Just for the last question, I want to switch

1:03:16

gears one last time and I want to

1:03:18

discuss the election of this new

1:03:21

House Speaker, MAGA

1:03:23

Mike Johnson. Do you

1:03:25

think that he'll

1:03:28

prove to be a stabilizing

1:03:31

figure in the party? Or do you think

1:03:34

that he'll just move the Republican

1:03:36

House further to the right and

1:03:39

continue to normalize the

1:03:41

MAGA agenda? And I say this

1:03:43

because anyone

1:03:45

that gets praised by Matt Gaetz, you

1:03:48

know is far right and is a far right

1:03:51

fucking lunatic. And listening

1:03:53

to this guy talking about Jesus

1:03:56

and

1:03:57

and

1:03:59

versus Wade and the fact that, you

1:04:02

know, no woman should be permitted

1:04:04

in abortion. I mean, I

1:04:06

start to think to myself, holy

1:04:09

shit, this is not the guy

1:04:11

that I could see being

1:04:13

a unifier of the Republican

1:04:16

Party unless all the Republicans

1:04:19

in the party are the same

1:04:21

as them.

1:04:22

The future of

1:04:25

MAGA Mike

1:04:26

is able to

1:04:28

be forecast by his past. I

1:04:31

got to know him on the first Trump impeachment.

1:04:33

He's soft spoken.

1:04:35

He's cordial. But Trump had

1:04:37

no ferocious and in my view,

1:04:40

no more dishonest, no

1:04:42

more ferocious, no more dishonest

1:04:46

defender than Mike

1:04:48

Johnson.

1:04:50

Don't be fooled

1:04:53

by that mild demeanor.

1:04:55

He is a hardcore

1:04:58

MAGA follower. You want more proof?

1:05:01

He led the congressional effort

1:05:03

to file

1:05:04

an amicus brief in the United States Supreme

1:05:06

Court saying Texas could sue to throw

1:05:08

out the votes for

1:05:10

Biden in Pennsylvania,

1:05:13

even though Biden clearly won. It

1:05:15

was nakedly

1:05:16

anti-democratic.

1:05:17

Even the Supreme Court dominated

1:05:19

by Republicans laughed

1:05:22

it out of court, refused to consider it. That's

1:05:25

who we're talking about here. So

1:05:27

yeah, I do not think he's going to be a stabilizing

1:05:31

influence. I think he's going

1:05:33

to be a dangerous one. We got to be sharp.

1:05:36

Well, I totally agree. I

1:05:38

mean, I look at him and all I see

1:05:41

is a wolf in sheep's clothing. That's

1:05:43

really all that I see. He's trying to, as you said,

1:05:46

portray some sort of a very

1:05:48

even hand. The problem that

1:05:50

the Republicans have is

1:05:53

greater than what

1:05:55

most people think. It's

1:05:57

exactly what happened to Texas.

1:06:00

McCarthy, right, where

1:06:02

it only takes a couple of people

1:06:04

to turn around to say, you know what, this shit

1:06:06

just ain't working for us and

1:06:08

they get together and they put in

1:06:11

the, you know, impeachment,

1:06:13

they vote of no confidence and

1:06:15

next thing you know, once again, the

1:06:17

House doesn't have a leader. But you know,

1:06:19

Norm, I just want to say to you, you know, you

1:06:22

are the final, listen

1:06:26

to this one, you are the final guest

1:06:29

on this specific RSS

1:06:31

feed for Maya Culpa. We're actually

1:06:33

moving the RSS feed over

1:06:36

to the Midas Touch network.

1:06:38

To get all the new episodes,

1:06:42

you're gonna have to then just subscribe

1:06:44

to the new RSS feed. The

1:06:46

link for the new RSS feed is

1:06:49

in the description. So when you

1:06:51

come back next, you'll

1:06:53

be on the new Midas Touch network

1:06:55

RSS feed for Maya Culpa podcast.

1:06:58

Friends, join

1:07:01

us on the new Midas network RSS

1:07:04

feed as one of the friends of the pod

1:07:08

and friend of Michael. There's no

1:07:10

better way that

1:07:11

you can spend your podcasting

1:07:15

attention than hanging out with

1:07:17

Michael

1:07:18

and his friends of

1:07:20

whom I consider myself to

1:07:22

be. As do I. As do I. So Norm, my friend,

1:07:25

let me as always say thank you for joining

1:07:28

me. Thank you for your insight. Boy,

1:07:32

boy, do we have a lot to talk

1:07:34

about. There's just too much going on all

1:07:36

at the same time from Maine

1:07:38

to Israel to Ukraine,

1:07:42

you know, to our national politics,

1:07:45

to the fighting. I mean this is

1:07:47

just, it's just really too much. So

1:07:49

I ask everybody take a deep breath.

1:07:53

Things will be okay together

1:07:55

as the Maya Culpa podcast listeners

1:07:59

and speakers. supporters. Together we

1:08:01

will fight this. We will ensure that 2024

1:08:05

there will be a massive blue tidal

1:08:07

wave that runs over the

1:08:10

entire Republican party and

1:08:12

that we will take back more houses.

1:08:15

We will take back more states. You

1:08:17

know, we will take the House back. We'll continue

1:08:19

to control the Senate. And yes, Joe

1:08:21

Biden will be president in 2024.

1:08:24

So my friend Norm, thank you my brother

1:08:27

and I will see you and I'll be speaking to you

1:08:29

very soon. Thank you, Michael.

1:08:31

See you soon. You got it, pal. And

1:08:35

now for today's Mayakolpa. I'm

1:08:37

struck by how Donald Trump compared himself

1:08:40

to Nelson Mandela. I mean, let's

1:08:42

forget for a moment

1:08:44

that he is a deeply racist

1:08:46

bigot and consider the possibility

1:08:48

that Trump is a persecution complex

1:08:51

and actually really sees himself as

1:08:53

a political prisoner being targeted

1:08:56

by a corrupt government. The

1:08:58

former president is portraying himself

1:09:01

as a bulwark against a deep state

1:09:03

that he claims is weaponized against

1:09:06

him as well as his supporters. You

1:09:09

see, look, the idea that he

1:09:11

is a political martyr who is being

1:09:13

unfairly targeted by the Biden administration

1:09:16

despite 91 charges

1:09:19

across his four criminal indictments.

1:09:21

I mean, look, I'm going to say it my way.

1:09:24

It's fucking ridiculous. But

1:09:27

it does strike a chord with his base who

1:09:29

truly believe that despite all

1:09:31

the evidence that Trump is innocent,

1:09:35

it's part of a larger and quite frankly,

1:09:37

dangerous sensibility that the

1:09:39

government is against them as well. You

1:09:42

see, Trump is spinning

1:09:43

a web of lies and inciting

1:09:45

his base to rally behind him

1:09:48

as he builds himself up into this martyr.

1:09:51

Behind those lies is the prospect

1:09:54

for more violence. Take

1:09:56

this startling statistic. One

1:09:58

in three Republicans Americans believe that

1:10:01

true American patriots may

1:10:03

have to resort to violence to save the

1:10:05

country.

1:10:07

The former president falsely

1:10:09

claimed

1:10:10

that the former Joint Chiefs of Staff

1:10:12

Chairman General Mark Milley committed

1:10:15

treason and suggested,

1:10:17

get a load of this, that he be executed,

1:10:20

called for police to shoot

1:10:21

shoplifters on site and

1:10:24

using language that mirrors Nazi

1:10:26

eugenics. And he claimed that migrants

1:10:29

illegally crossing the southern border

1:10:32

are poisoning the blood of our country.

1:10:36

We're building up to something big and ugly

1:10:38

and Trump knows how to manipulate people

1:10:41

to get

1:10:41

in touch with their worst and their most

1:10:43

basic instincts.

1:10:46

If he is pushing this notion that

1:10:48

he is being unfairly persecuted

1:10:50

on top of a stolen election, he

1:10:53

is lighting a fuse that is going

1:10:55

to

1:10:55

explode and make January 6 look

1:10:58

like a Boy Scout jamboree. Trump

1:11:01

has never respected the norms of political

1:11:03

behavior and there's little reason to

1:11:05

think gag orders will provide meaningful

1:11:08

guardrails either. The

1:11:10

day is fast approaching when someone

1:11:13

picks up a gun or builds a fucking

1:11:15

bomb and then seeks to follow through

1:11:17

on Trump's words. If

1:11:20

and when that happens, he will say that

1:11:22

he did not specifically direct

1:11:24

or cause the violence and he will probably

1:11:26

escape without criminal charges

1:11:29

and the blood will be on his hands

1:11:31

yet again.

1:11:33

And as always my friends,

1:11:34

thanks for listening. May

1:11:38

your colpis brought to you by audio up. My

1:11:40

name is Tarjan L.S.J. Media, written

1:11:43

by Jimmy Kjellenek. Our editor

1:11:45

and managing producer is Lisa Orkin.

1:11:47

Our executive producer is Jared

1:11:49

Gustaf, Jimmy Kjellenek and myself

1:11:51

Michael Cohen along with Phil Alberstadt.

1:11:54

It may be a new day politically but

1:11:57

nowadays the landscape is more confusing

1:11:59

than ever.

1:12:00

Donald Trump may have lost the battle for the presidency,

1:12:03

but in many

1:12:03

ways Trumpism is still winning

1:12:05

the war on the state and local level. May

1:12:08

it help

1:12:09

us here, South guide you through the wilderness,

1:12:11

and keep them informed. And let's face

1:12:14

it, we all want Trump, Rudy,

1:12:16

and the rest of these seditious

1:12:17

traitors to see justice

1:12:20

that's ultimately driving you into the state.

1:12:23

And try to get the

1:12:26

real process that will ultimately

1:12:28

see them behind bars. May it help,

1:12:31

and let the

1:12:32

truth.

1:12:53

Donald Trump is a true

1:12:56

self-honored man. He's

1:13:00

a powerful, powerful, and he's

1:13:02

a powerful man. And he's a powerful man.

1:13:07

May it help, and let the truth. May

1:13:09

it help, and let the truth. It's

1:13:12

coming down and down. And

1:13:14

he's going down and down and

1:13:16

down and down and down and down. And

1:13:20

he's a powerful man.