0:00

Even when we have a question. Almost

0:02

every question comes out of

0:04

a worldview, so it comes out of

0:06

our answers. Welcome

0:16

to the one you feed. Throughout time,

0:18

great thinkers have recognized the importance

0:20

of the thoughts we have, quotes like

0:23

garbage in, garbage out, or you

0:25

are what you think ring true. And

0:28

yet for many of us, our thoughts don't

0:30

strengthen or empower us. We

0:32

tend toward negativity, self pity,

0:35

jealousy, or fear. We see

0:37

what we don't have instead of what we do.

0:39

We think things that hold us back and dampen

0:42

our spirit. But it's not just about

0:44

thinking. Our actions matter. It

0:47

takes conscious, consistent, and creative

0:49

effort to make a life worth living. This

0:51

podcast is about how other people keep themselves

0:54

moving in the right direction, how they

0:56

feed their good wolf m

1:10

Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode

1:13

is Adya Shanti, author of The

1:15

Way of Liberation, Resurrecting Jesus,

1:18

Falling into Grace, and the End of Your

1:20

World. He's an American born spiritual

1:22

teacher devoted to serving the awakening

1:24

of all beings. His teachings are an open

1:26

invitation to stop, inquire

1:29

and recognize what is true in liberating

1:31

at the core of all existence. Based

1:33

in California, Adya Shanty teach us

1:35

throughout the US and in Canada, Europe

1:37

and Australia. This interview was recorded

1:39

live at Adya Shanty's Open Gate Soana,

1:42

located in the Bay Area. If you

1:44

value the content we put out each week, then

1:46

we need your help. As the

1:48

show has grown, so have our expenses

1:51

and time commitment. Go to

1:53

one you feed dot net slash Support

1:55

and make a monthly donation. Our

1:58

goal is to get to five of our listeners

2:00

supporting the show. Please be part

2:02

of the five percent that make a contribution and

2:05

allow us to keep putting out these interviews

2:07

and ideas. We really need your

2:09

help to make the show sustainable and

2:11

long lasting. Again, that's

2:14

one you Feed dot net slash Support.

2:16

Thank you in advance for your help.

2:23

And here's the interview with audio. Shanti

2:26

Hi Audia, Welcome to the show. Thank you Rex.

2:29

Nice to be here with you. It's a pleasure to be sitting

2:31

here with you. We are in your studio in San

2:33

Jose and it is a treat for us

2:35

as always to be able to do an in person interview.

2:37

So thanks for helping us to arrange it. I'm glad

2:40

we could pull it off together. We'll get into a lot of

2:42

your teachings here in a bit, but let's start the show

2:44

like we normally do, with the parable of the two wolves.

2:47

There's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson.

2:49

He says, in life, there are two wolves inside

2:51

of us that are always at battle. One

2:53

is a good wolf, which represents things

2:56

like kindness and bravery and love, and

2:58

the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like

3:00

greed and hatred and fear. And

3:02

the grandson stops and he thinks about it

3:04

for a second, and he looks up at his grandfather and he says,

3:07

grandfather, which one wins? And

3:09

the grandfather says, the one you feed.

3:12

So I'd like to start off by asking you what that

3:14

parable means to you in your life and in the work

3:16

that you do. Well. First of all, it points

3:19

to something very universal about

3:21

all of us. In a certain sense. I always think

3:23

of a human being as we're all sort of walking

3:26

paradoxes. In fact, I think

3:28

part of the journey is to go from a walking contradiction

3:30

to a walking paradox, you know,

3:33

And that story kind of highlights both

3:35

of those if these two forces

3:37

within us, which I often thought of as like

3:39

the light force of the dark force, and

3:41

I'm not even meaning in some like demonic sense

3:44

necessarily, but just your ordinary garden

3:46

variety. You know, you can get triggered

3:48

easy, your buttons get pushed, you, you know that

3:51

kind of stuff. We all have these forces within

3:53

our lives, and yeah, I think it is

3:55

important that we've become conscious

3:57

of what's driving us.

4:00

You know, where we're being driven from, where we

4:02

were being moved from. And I

4:04

think we also have this amazing

4:06

physical biological organism

4:09

because I think sometimes when we look at these kind

4:11

of things, it gets kind of abstract

4:13

or you don't know, how do I deal with that? How do I

4:16

make a better choice? Because really a

4:18

lot of it comes down to making better, more

4:20

compassionate, loving, wise

4:23

choices. And I think our bodies

4:25

actually tell us really clearly that when

4:28

we're not seeing something clearly,

4:30

when it's not really an alignment with reality,

4:33

whether we're lost in some story

4:35

or some interpretation or some

4:37

belief system, if it's not an accord

4:40

with what's happening in that moment, will feel

4:42

that as tension anxiety.

4:45

And that's the way that we're literally biologically

4:47

hooked up to the way the world

4:49

tells us. We're not seeing things really

4:52

clearly, because to me, that's the underlying

4:54

issue, even beyond trying

4:56

to give attention to

4:59

the better the angels of our nature,

5:02

is to kind of almost get underneath

5:05

that paradigm at the same time that

5:07

we're making wise and loving choices, but

5:09

to get to where they're really coming

5:12

from, you know. Um, and

5:14

our body helps us. Right when we're in a clear,

5:16

open, loving space, our bodies

5:19

feel clear, lacking

5:21

of tension, we feel certain ways

5:24

so often I think our bodies are best

5:26

aid in navigating this

5:30

inner territory of our consciousness. We

5:32

had a guest on I can't remember who it was at this

5:34

point whose main thought was just

5:36

watch for tension, you know, watching notice

5:38

for tension in your body as an indicator

5:41

to what you're saying that there's something else going

5:43

on there and with the tension will always

5:45

be some sort of story

5:48

or belief or inaccurate

5:51

judgment. If the story is more or less

5:53

in alignment with what is, and we're

5:55

kind of alignment it does, we feel open

5:57

and easy and and available,

6:00

and whenever we don't, we can

6:02

bet we're we're actually talking to ourselves

6:05

in some way at some level that's

6:07

putting us at odds

6:09

against ourselves. Of course, we can even

6:11

do this with the two sides of our nature, the

6:14

lighter side and the darker sides of our nature.

6:17

You don't eliminate the darkness without eliminating

6:19

the light part. It's like two sides of

6:21

one coin. I'm a spiritual teacher,

6:23

so spiritual seekers come to see me,

6:26

and one of the first things I have to try

6:28

to help orient them around is this

6:31

isn't the light winning out over

6:33

the dark. That's a good way to lead a very

6:35

you know, conflicted life.

6:38

It's really about, first

6:40

of all, being a big enough space

6:43

to start to recognize these forces within us

6:47

and being willing to recognize them.

6:49

I think that's something we'll get to a little bit later in the

6:51

interview. Is I want to talk about that.

6:53

What's the role of emotion and everyday,

6:55

day to day life, you know, in an awakened

6:58

state. But let's start with with

7:00

the awakened state. More than a lot

7:02

of people we've had on the show, your teaching

7:05

this focus on this idea of awakening

7:08

or liberation or realizing the nature

7:10

of our being. You say that the question

7:12

of being is everything. Nothing

7:14

could be more important or consequential,

7:17

nothing where the stakes run so high. So

7:20

talk to me about this question of being and

7:22

awakening. What does that mean to

7:24

you? First of all, not all awakening

7:27

is the same. So that's I think really important

7:29

to make that there's there are different kinds of awakening.

7:31

Of course, awakening is starting to be used

7:34

for almost everything. You know, I awoke

7:36

into my whatever. You know that I

7:38

don't have to eat a piece of pie

7:40

today. I had a dietary awakening or something.

7:43

But in in a in a really

7:45

deep sense, awakening is

7:48

at the very least it's a fundamental

7:51

shift of identity.

7:53

And basically it's the shift of identity

7:56

out of image, memory

8:00

ideas, the way we talk

8:02

to ourselves. I'm good, I'm bad, all

8:04

those evaluations, All of that lives

8:06

in our mind right, it's all

8:09

conceptual and image.

8:12

Past futures are our images,

8:15

um, And that's really what awakening.

8:18

We wake up out of that we realize

8:20

that that actually, while it may be there,

8:22

it may even still be functioning, that

8:25

our sense of what we are

8:28

when we've had this shift is

8:30

no longer exclusively

8:33

found within that sort

8:35

of conceptual matrix,

8:38

and that's that's the fundamental sort of nature

8:40

of awakening. What we awaken two is is

8:42

a whole other matter. It can be sort of pure

8:45

awareness, it can be the unity

8:47

of all things. There can be different things

8:49

we waken too, when we wake

8:51

up out of the mental construct,

8:53

really is what it is. One of the things

8:56

that you talk about is you say, the primary task

8:58

of any good spiritual teaching is not to answer

9:00

your questions, but to

9:02

question your answers. Yeah.

9:06

Yeah, because you know, we all

9:08

walk around with a whole host

9:10

of answers that

9:12

often we don't even know that we have.

9:15

When somebody asked me a question, when a student

9:17

asked me a question, what I'm listening for is

9:21

what's the set of beliefs, in opinions?

9:24

What's the worldview that they're operating

9:26

from? And that worldview is literally

9:29

constructed out of a whole

9:31

series of answers. We

9:33

often call them beliefs, opinions,

9:36

things like that. So these are answers,

9:39

right, Our answers are actually often

9:42

what are causing us most of the suffering. I

9:44

know, you shouldn't have done that. So we have a belief

9:46

we have the world should be this way,

9:49

but it's not. You know, you should

9:51

be this way, but you're not. I should be different

9:53

that I am, but I'm not. They start out as answers,

9:56

right, I know. I know who I am, I know

9:58

who you are. I know the way the world world should

10:00

be. And

10:02

when I say to question your answers, that's what I

10:04

mean. Even when we have a question, almost

10:07

every question comes out of

10:09

a worldview. So it comes out of

10:12

our answers, right, comes

10:15

out of our belief system. You

10:17

talk about needing to be willing to

10:19

let go of those things. Even

10:22

if I feel willing, those things are

10:24

still kind of there. Right. I might be like, Okay,

10:26

I'm willing to believe that's not true, and

10:28

at the same time, there's a big part of my brain

10:31

going that's absolutely true, and I'm like, wow, now

10:33

I'm willing to believe that's not true. Oh, it's

10:35

true. And so how do you work through

10:37

that process? Because it seems like what

10:40

you're talking about is on a slightly different

10:42

level than what the conscious chattering mind

10:44

is. Yeah. Yeah, because I think

10:46

we've all had the experience of you

10:49

know, I want to change. I'm willing to change

10:51

even more than willing, I actually want to

10:53

I don't want to live according to that belief

10:56

pattern or whatever it is, and then you feel like you

10:58

can't change. It doesn't happen or it changes.

11:00

It's for a very short period of time. So

11:03

the first of all, when I say willing, one

11:05

of the things I'm really trying to get at is

11:08

we can say we want to let go of something,

11:10

and we're trying to let go of it with one hand,

11:13

and subconsciously we're desperately holding

11:15

onto it with the other hands. The reason

11:17

we do that is because the

11:19

beliefs and opinions and ideas

11:22

that we have, that is what we

11:24

construct our separate self out of.

11:27

Right, That's how we do it. Right. So

11:29

if we want to get to know each other, usually in the

11:31

conventional world, we ask

11:33

each other, you know, what are you doing, what's your background,

11:36

what's your work, are you married? Are you

11:39

you know, we're searching for all this information,

11:41

and then we want to also see what people

11:43

believe. So we're searching, often

11:45

without asking direct questions, you know what your

11:48

political affiliation, what

11:50

what your spiritual way of being? And so we're

11:52

when we're doing that, it's a natural thing

11:54

to do, but we're kind of boxing

11:56

categorizing. Yes, So a willingness

11:59

is really am I really

12:01

willing to look not only

12:03

at my beliefs really deeply

12:05

or whatever seems to be causing me

12:08

trouble? But am I also willing

12:10

to see that One of the reasons

12:12

I find it so hard to let go of those things

12:15

is because I'm literally letting go

12:17

of what gives me my

12:20

sense of myself. And even

12:22

if it's contracted, and even if it's difficult,

12:25

at least it's known, you know what

12:27

I mean? Are you willing to go

12:29

through this doorway where you actually don't

12:31

know anymore, where

12:33

you realize it's all being constructed

12:35

on the spot through image, idea,

12:38

belief, and the associated

12:40

feelings and emotions that that creates.

12:42

Am I really willing to call

12:45

that into question? And

12:48

not? Actually no, because I won't

12:50

know who I am if I actually call the whole thing into

12:52

question for a period of time, however long

12:54

that last. You've written a bunch of different

12:56

books, and one of the books that I looked

12:58

at was is it a way of liberation? I

13:01

think? And it's really you really sort of boiled

13:03

down a lot of your teachings

13:05

into a fairly practical

13:08

structure, which I found very helpful to

13:10

sort of organize a lot of what you've thought about.

13:12

And so I thought we might use that as a way

13:14

to work through some of this conversation, because

13:16

I think it really does sum up a lot of what

13:18

I've read, and a lot of other things, and and and

13:20

videos of yours that I've watched. And you talk

13:22

about there being five foundations of

13:24

spirituality, so let's

13:26

just maybe talk briefly about those and and see

13:29

where that takes us. The first one is to clarify

13:31

your aspiration. It's interesting

13:33

when I came up with that first one when I first wrote

13:35

the book, and I did a sort of internet

13:37

course on it, and I learned

13:39

something because you know, I was I was going

13:42

through those first five foundations in

13:44

one evening, and what kept

13:46

happening weeks after that as a week's

13:48

when on I kept getting emails and people calling

13:50

me saying, I'm still on the first foundation. You

13:53

know, what is my aspiration? Which is a way

13:55

of saying, what's my intention? What

13:58

do I want? The reason this came

14:00

to me many many years ago, when I was teaching

14:02

the retreats, people would come to me

14:05

and I literally have dozens of people

14:07

over a few years that

14:09

I would start asking people, so, why you here? You

14:12

know, you came to this week long retreat? What brings

14:14

you here? What do you want? What's your what's your

14:16

intention? And they usually will tell me something

14:18

that really sounds like they

14:20

got from somebody else, Right, I

14:23

I want to be enlightened? Right, well,

14:25

what does that mean? What does that mean? Or I want to be

14:27

awakened? Why do you want to be awakened?

14:29

So I'm trying to get it underneath. And

14:31

what I found out I always talked with people who have

14:33

been doing serious spiritual practice,

14:36

sometimes for twenty or thirty years,

14:38

and they didn't actually know why they were

14:40

doing it when they really looked

14:42

at it. They they had in their minds

14:45

things that they were told and promised, but

14:48

when it really came down to what am

14:50

I really really here

14:52

for? I was very surprised by

14:54

how often people didn't actually

14:57

really know, which is interesting

14:59

because almost any other aspect

15:01

of our lives we would know at

15:04

least to some degree, and we need to know,

15:06

like if you go to work, you know what am

15:08

I doing today? You're you're clarifying

15:10

your intention for that day? Right, and

15:12

you have to know, and you have to know what you're doing,

15:15

you have to know why you're there, and all these

15:17

things that are very natural to us. So I

15:20

find that clarifying your intention and

15:22

your aspiration in any area of life.

15:24

It could be in relationships, it could be spirituality,

15:27

it could be work, it could be anything. This

15:29

is what provides our orientation. The backside

15:32

of that is when we start to look at, what

15:34

we start to discover is what

15:37

our orientation actually

15:39

is, because often our

15:41

orientation that actually is

15:44

is different than the one we'd

15:46

like to think. One of your lines that comes

15:48

to mind is that the ego is really

15:50

interested in two things, survival and feeling

15:52

better. Right, And it seems to me that

15:54

a lot of the spiritual search falls under the very

15:57

nebulous feeling better category.

15:59

I want to feel better, and I realized maybe

16:01

that shopping or drinking or all

16:03

the various other things don't really work, so I'm

16:06

going to give this thing a try. So that's a

16:08

very egoic aspiration. But is that an

16:10

aspiration to work from? I just I

16:12

want to feel better. That's a good question. I think

16:14

of it as not sort of okay, maybe egoic,

16:17

but it's also relevant. So

16:20

every biological being

16:22

that I've ever heard of, when you give them the choice,

16:24

do you want to experience pain or pleasure, they'll

16:27

go for pleasure. We're hooked up. It's not just

16:29

ego a DNA structure of our bodies,

16:32

right, It's part of what helps us survive. So first

16:34

of all, you just make that okay, of course I

16:36

want to feel better. Of course I want to

16:38

have the richest, most

16:41

meaningful experience

16:43

that I can have. That's totally

16:46

natural. Now we also have to

16:48

see, then, if we don't address that drive

16:51

in a wise way, how much

16:53

trouble that's gotten any of us

16:55

into. Right, that same

16:58

drive can make us, you know, drink us X

17:00

pack of beer, or put a needle in our arm

17:02

or whatever it is, you know, jump

17:04

off of high mountains with parachutes on our backs.

17:07

You know, all the two for three

17:09

on those. So

17:14

it's really learning to work with that in a

17:16

wise way. But at some point,

17:19

even though wanting to

17:21

feel better is natural to all of us,

17:23

at some point I think we

17:25

we do bump up against this limitation

17:27

with it. It can only take us so far, you

17:30

know, because when we start feeling better, we'll stop

17:32

looking deeper. If that's what

17:34

we want perfectly, okay, you

17:37

know that's we're happy with that. Fine,

17:39

But if we actually are have a deeper

17:43

aspiration, going back to your earlier question

17:46

or an intention, then it there's

17:48

a point where it has to transform. It has

17:50

to transform from only

17:52

wanting to feel better too, okay,

17:55

wanting to feel better, but also wanting

17:58

to know. For me, it would be what's

18:00

really true in any situation,

18:03

whether it's spiritual, you

18:05

know, the nature of our being, or

18:07

any other kind of truth, because

18:10

this is what can take us beyond how

18:13

we feel, if we want that more

18:15

than we want to feel better. Because some truths

18:17

make us feel much better, some

18:20

truths are kind of shocking and temporarily

18:23

WHOA, I'm not so sure I was prepared to see

18:25

that. It's like the sobering up processes

18:27

exactly. It's not exactly a pleasant process.

18:30

It's a great place to get to, but the

18:32

process cannot feel good. That's

18:35

right, that's a fantastic way to put it.

19:06

Hey, Eric, ask everybody for money.

19:08

All right, it's that time. I guess, all right, it's

19:10

time to ask for your support.

19:14

Yep to rattilely on the mic, stand. That's what your

19:16

money goes to. One of the things that goes to is keeping

19:19

Chris around here so that we get something that actually

19:21

sounds good instead of what you'd get

19:23

with me, which is me rattling the mic

19:25

stand and fidgeting with papers and all

19:27

that stuff. This week's interview with Audio Shanti

19:30

is another example of how what

19:32

you donate helps us out. We were able

19:34

to go see him live and in person

19:37

and interview him, and I think that reflects in the

19:39

quality of the interview. So your support

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definitely helps with that. The amount

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you've contributed so far has helped so much

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with that, and it really takes a big burden

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off being able to meet those basic needs

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so we could continue to use the support.

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So that's a couple examples of the way your donations

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net slash support, you

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can make a donation of any size. Please

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go ahead and do it now if you can, before

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Is that a word? Appreciative of

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your help. So thanks so much. And here

20:39

is the rest of the interview with Adya

20:41

Shanti. I don't think we're gonna

20:43

hit all five just due to time. So I'm gonna cherry

20:45

pick a couple of these, but never

20:47

abdicate your authority. That

20:50

one. You can utilize it in different context.

20:52

But I specifically wrote it again for

20:54

sort of people coming into spirituality

20:57

because it's one of these things that I noticed over and over

20:59

and over again. Now, I started teaching on fifty

21:01

four. Now, I started teaching at thirty three,

21:04

which was pretty young. And

21:06

when I was younger, you know, most of the people that

21:08

were coming to see me were older than I was.

21:10

Even though I'm not the kind of person

21:13

almost just my makeup, you know, I don't

21:15

like exercising power

21:18

over people and all that kind of thing has never

21:20

been my thing. But even for somebody

21:22

like that, I would notice people coming to see

21:24

me, and I can just see in the way they

21:26

look in the vie, at the way they relate to me,

21:29

that at some level it's like they're walking

21:31

in the door and without even knowing it, they're

21:34

almost like reaching inside, taking

21:36

the best of themselves out of themselves

21:38

and hanging it on me. Right,

21:41

And so now I become their soul

21:43

spiritual authority. And

21:45

even as a teacher, I saw that doesn't

21:48

work. That's a good way to go down

21:50

a lot a lot of blind alleys. It ends

21:52

up being sort of a paradox between

21:55

in any area of life again, because we

21:57

can broaden this way beyond spirituality almost

21:59

any area. Yeah, at certain times

22:01

in our lives, you know, we are either

22:03

sort of subordinate to an authority or were

22:05

playing the role of authority. It could be just at

22:08

work, it could be sort of

22:10

you know, different areas. But if we

22:12

abdicate too much of our authority,

22:14

were actually abdicating or giving away

22:17

something of ourselves that, as

22:20

I see it, we should never actually be giving away

22:23

that final authority of what we decided

22:25

to do or not to do. Should never lie

22:27

in somebody else's hands, spiritual

22:30

teacher or otherwise. It's a very

22:32

sort of dangerous dynamic to get into.

22:35

And as you you mentioned, it's a fine

22:37

line, right, because a

22:40

lot of the spiritual practices

22:42

or teachings are, like we said earlier,

22:44

suspending our beliefs for

22:47

a point of time or to a certain amount

22:49

and following a path. And I

22:52

agree with you, I think it's a very difficult place

22:54

to find. I think the

22:57

middle is difficult to find in motion nearly

22:59

anything, which is why I'm always interested in it. But

23:01

I think that's one where it's it's very

23:04

difficult to find the right I mean I made

23:06

the sobriety analogy earlier, but I would see

23:08

that in recovery programs where people, you

23:10

know, two years sober. I'd be like, well, do

23:12

you want to do X, Y and Z, Like, I better check with my sponsor.

23:14

I'm like, that doesn't seem to be to me.

23:17

The spirit of what we're talking about

23:19

here, right, It is that advocation of

23:21

responsibility. I think a wise

23:23

authority will work in tandem

23:26

with our own inner sense of

23:28

authority. They won't completely take it

23:30

over, and we won't completely

23:32

give it up. But yet will remain open.

23:35

This is actually, I think, a lot simpler than we

23:37

often make it sound. We've all went through

23:39

lots of school in our life. You go to school,

23:41

you go to college or wherever you want to learn

23:43

science, you go to the science teacher. You don't

23:45

go to the science teacher and say, okay, now

23:47

you're a scientist. Now teach me how to

23:50

bake the best you know, chocolate chip

23:52

cookie in the world, and you know everything.

23:55

You go them for a certain area of expertise,

23:57

but you're not You're not giving them your whole

23:59

life now. Granted, a spiritual teacher

24:01

is not just dealing with a particular

24:04

Arab expertise, like you know, science

24:06

or biology or whatever. But still,

24:08

at the end of the day, I think it's much more

24:10

healthy and certainly more safe when

24:14

it looked in. Our relationship is

24:16

a little bit more like maybe

24:18

not completely, but a little bit more like we would

24:21

we've all had with our teachers. I'm

24:23

going to them as authorities. They know more about

24:25

it than I do, but I'm

24:27

not going to just do anything that that person

24:29

says I should be doing. We keep that, I

24:31

think within ourselves. That's sort of part

24:33

of taking responsibility. To what

24:36

you get with that responsibility

24:38

is you don't get to blame anybody because

24:41

you've never given it away completely,

24:44

you know, if you've always retained

24:46

your ultimate decision makings process

24:49

within yourself, you know, especially as

24:52

an as an adult. So you

24:54

talk about three core practices.

24:56

And I found this part

24:59

very interesting because a lot

25:01

of at least what I've studied

25:03

and read over many years is

25:06

meditation and meditation

25:08

in a particular style, and we're going to talk about

25:10

how you sort of veer from that style.

25:13

So let's start there. You've you've written a book

25:15

called True Meditation, and you talk about

25:17

this idea of true meditation.

25:20

How is true meditation different than

25:22

the meditation that most of

25:24

us, if we've been reading these kind of books for a long

25:26

time, are used to thinking of it. And that's a great question.

25:28

First of all, sometimes people think

25:31

when they hear their were true or read it that I

25:33

mean better than I don't mean

25:35

better than um. True is just

25:38

since my teaching is oriented towards truth,

25:41

that it's kind of a meditation that's oriented

25:44

towards that. So to me, the foundation

25:46

of meditation and it's deeper

25:48

form, you could say, very very

25:50

simple thing. Right, It is the art of allowing

25:52

everything to be exactly as it is. Now,

25:55

that's one of those things you listen to and you go, well,

25:57

that sounds really simple, and

25:59

then you said down in a room by yourself and

26:02

you watch your mind is doing everything

26:04

but allowing that moment to

26:06

be as it is, or it's talking about it, it's imagining

26:09

some other moment. If you are feeling

26:11

something you think you're not supposed to be feeling in meditation,

26:14

right, you think you're supposed to be feeling peace,

26:17

but just feeling fear or you're

26:19

being feeling anger or whatever arises.

26:22

It is simply to allow everything

26:25

and everything means everything just

26:28

to be the way it is. That's

26:31

that's the art, and it's really art because

26:33

you can't tell someone here's

26:35

how exactly to

26:37

do that, right, you can kind of get preliminary

26:40

things, you know, like follow your breath helps

26:42

you kind of get a preliminary stability

26:44

instead of every time your mind wanders,

26:46

just bring it back to the breath. But then beyond

26:48

that, it's just a deeper letting

26:52

go or letting be. And

26:54

so if someone would ask me, no matter what they

26:56

come up with, in meditation, is

26:59

if they let it be, something

27:01

really unexpected starts to happen

27:03

to anything within ourselves that we totally

27:06

allowed to be. If we totally allow it to

27:08

be, it starts to

27:10

transform and often

27:13

sort of integrates into our body

27:15

and mind and consciousness all by itself.

27:18

It's a little bit different also in the respect

27:20

that to me, I don't turn this into a technique,

27:23

but meditation is there,

27:25

and the way that I use it is to get us to have

27:27

an experiential insight

27:30

into the fundamental nature

27:32

of our own being, of our consciousness.

27:35

That's what it's really there for. So this

27:38

kind of going into meditation

27:40

with a curiosity, this is the hardest

27:42

thing for me to give a I always tell groups

27:45

of people when I say that the hardest part of

27:47

meditation to convey

27:50

is the absolute importance

27:54

of bringing your intelligence

27:57

along for the ride. So what

27:59

will often happens when people meditated,

28:01

they're just following the technique. I

28:04

have a thought, and this is what I do with it. Whereas

28:06

if we bring our intelligence with us,

28:08

they're actually not only meditating,

28:12

but we're actually in a process where we're

28:14

learning from what we see. We're watching

28:16

something in such a way that we learned something

28:18

rather than being so dedicated

28:21

to the technique. But

28:23

that's the only thing we're doing. Years ago,

28:25

I saw was a wonderful documentary of this guy

28:27

who was one of the first people that deeply discovered

28:30

the behavior patterns of wolf

28:32

And so he set himself up on

28:34

a ridgeline where a wolf pack had

28:37

a den right down below, and

28:39

this was probably five six hundred

28:41

yards maybe more than that a way, and

28:44

he literally watched them for a better part

28:46

of a year, through different four months of

28:48

the season, and he watched them,

28:50

and then he came back and he wrote this amazing

28:52

book about the behavior patterns of wolves.

28:55

So he was obviously watching in a really

28:57

intelligent way. He could have sat up there

28:59

and watch the wolves for a year, but

29:01

then said, okay, I'm just supposed to, you

29:04

know, follow my breath and just and

29:06

that's the only thing I'm supposed to do. He could have watched

29:08

the wolf pack for a year and learned almost nothing. Now,

29:11

of course I'll have people follow their breath

29:13

initially too, but it's

29:15

that no, we're watching

29:18

what happens in your own consciousness.

29:21

You're just not commenting, You're just not

29:24

you know, furthering the storyline, but

29:26

you're watching an essential way. You want to see

29:29

how the whole thing works, right, You're not analyzing

29:32

it, you're just watching it. Yeah. I think

29:34

for me, and I've been meditating on and

29:36

off for a long time, it

29:38

changed for me when I did sort

29:41

of a version of what you're describing,

29:43

which was I kind of just utterly

29:46

gave up on the result, Like

29:49

because I am not someone who settles into

29:51

meditation, well, following

29:53

my breath is a recipe for me to just

29:56

have my mind wander for an hour like it just

29:58

and so as soon as I just let

30:01

go of like that's okay, that's

30:03

if that's what happens, it's what happens.

30:05

Like I'm just gonna sit here and you

30:07

know, do my best. And and that just

30:09

being sort of more to what you talked about, like

30:11

spirit or intention or sincerity, the

30:13

whole thing sort of transformed for me into

30:16

an experience that was different when I just

30:18

let it, as you say, let it be exactly

30:21

as it was because I was so certain

30:23

something was supposed to be happening. That's a great

30:25

example, Eric, of your own experience

30:27

of what I'm talking about. I had the same

30:29

experience by the way to You know, when I

30:31

was in my twenties and trying to really

30:33

meditate in this very concentrated way, and

30:35

I had an idea what was supposed to be happening,

30:38

and and at some

30:40

point the whole thing kind of imploded, and you

30:42

know, I just had to find another

30:45

another way. Do you think that time

30:47

that you spent doing that helped lead towards

30:49

awakening? Because I sometimes wonder what the

30:51

way I meditate now is I kind of just watch

30:54

I asked myself, what I've been able to do that from

30:56

the beginning, or is it the fact

30:58

that I sort of toil in the field, so

31:01

to speak, for that time that now allows

31:03

that to happen. What do you think about that? I think

31:05

most people are going to toil in the field no

31:07

matter what you tell them. Remember what they're in spread. That's

31:10

part of it, right. The part of it is, you know,

31:12

my teacher used to say to me, when she would

31:14

always say, you know, don't try to control your

31:16

mind. I didn't even know

31:19

how not to control my mind. I

31:21

was left with the the absolute

31:23

difficult task of trying

31:25

not to try the eternal

31:28

paradox, so that I was making effort

31:30

not to make too much effort. But

31:32

some of that's like, you know, we just

31:34

have to dance our dance out a little bit, and it does

31:37

kind of set you up in a certain sense

31:39

when you do kind of start to just let everything

31:41

to be. It provides this nice contrast,

31:45

you know, you know, the contrast between really rigidly

31:47

trying to follow something and then oh,

31:50

there's this total other way to do

31:52

this. Could you theoretically

31:54

go to the other way immediately?

31:57

Theoretically, yeah, and some people can,

31:59

but times toiling away for a while,

32:02

Like anything else in life, you know, um,

32:04

sometimes you've got to toil away at it before

32:07

you ready to move on. Moving to listening

32:09

to sound, that was there was a big transformer

32:12

for me because I think get moved from trying

32:14

to do something to simply paying attention.

32:17

And then I think that opened me a little bit more

32:19

to this concept of well, if I can do that for

32:21

sound, let me just do that for everything.

32:24

Yeah. In the fact that you sound a lot

32:26

when we talk about meditation, I just said,

32:28

just just rest and you're listening, not

32:31

listening to this or that, Just

32:33

just listen, and you also mean

32:36

it more than just your ears. Yea. Our

32:38

whole bodies are sensing

32:40

instruments of existence. Right, Literally

32:42

every inch of our skin is a

32:45

sensory instrument. And part

32:47

of what happens in meditation is the instrument

32:49

gets much much more refined

32:52

and subtle. Let's move on

32:54

to another one of the practices. And I think this

32:57

is the thing for me that sets

32:59

you apart from most other teachings,

33:02

at least that I've been exposed to. And I've been more exposed

33:05

to Buddhist teachings and less

33:07

so maybe to some of the more non dual teachings.

33:09

But it's this idea of inquiry. I've certainly

33:11

heard that well do self inquiry, but I've

33:13

never been really shown how to

33:16

do it. So can you talk about what it is and

33:18

maybe what the gateway is or some

33:20

basic things about how people could do this In

33:23

the form of Buddhism that I was with

33:25

with my teacher and Zen, a

33:27

lot of it's based on questions. Spirituality

33:31

is really about dealing with the existential issues

33:33

of life. Right, Who am I? What

33:35

am I? What is God? What is life? Where

33:38

did I come from? Where am I going? The

33:40

big issues is that's really the

33:42

hallmark of spirituality. So how

33:45

do I approach those

33:47

right and think

33:49

of a question that you might have, whatever

33:52

the question might be, who am I?

33:54

And as a way to actually

33:56

utilize it, how do I work without

33:58

other than just sitting around thinking of it?

34:01

Is it's almost like you you

34:03

introduce it into your consciousness,

34:05

into your mind right in a very clear

34:07

way, right, what is it actually

34:10

in my experience right now

34:13

that I really am,

34:15

and you just drop it into your mind.

34:19

The key is then drop it

34:21

let it go, almost like if you

34:23

were to place a pebble on the top of a lake.

34:26

You just drop it and let it sink.

34:29

You know, if you're if you're ruminated

34:31

about it, if you're thinking about it, it

34:33

tends to keep you on the surface level of consciousness.

34:36

So you drop it in and then at

34:38

some point whenever the question comes back to

34:40

your mind again, you're not making a formula

34:43

where you're just repeating the question like a mantra.

34:45

But when it comes back to your mind you can

34:48

you can consciously repeat it again. But

34:50

do it like you're dropping a pebble on the top of a

34:52

leg. Just drop it in and then let it go, because

34:55

that allows the question to go very

34:58

deeply into your unconscious right,

35:01

that's where the transformation, that's where revelation

35:03

comes from. That's where it's going to happen. So

35:06

if we analyze it too much, it keeps

35:09

us on the surface level of consciousness. If

35:11

we drop it in it can have

35:13

great depth. I mean writers deal with this,

35:15

for instance, all the time they get to a point

35:17

they don't know what to write anymore, writer, and

35:21

where do they do? You know, they just have to sit

35:23

right at that edge. They're

35:25

sitting at there and they want to write the next word

35:27

or the next sentence, but they can't yet find

35:30

it, and they just have to sit at that

35:32

edge. And often they have to let go of

35:34

trying to figure it out, and then all

35:36

of a sudden has probably we've all discovered

35:39

you let go of trying to figure something out, and then

35:41

oh, there it is. So

35:44

that's requires at

35:46

least a rudimentary level of faith to

35:48

to just let let these questions go into

35:50

us. The other way you seem to approach

35:53

in Krein, I'm trying to find the quote

35:55

here you say, as a guiding principle to progressively

35:57

realize what is not absolutely true

36:00

is of infinitely more value than speculating

36:02

about what is and so what I've heard

36:04

you do or seen you do an inquiry is sort

36:06

of check out, Well, I'm not this,

36:09

I'm not that, And so there

36:11

is a intellectual piece to some

36:13

degree. Absolutely, That's

36:15

the nice thing about it is in an inquiry

36:18

you don't have to leave your mind behind. It's

36:21

not there's nothing anti intellectual

36:23

about it, but you're you're joining the

36:26

intellectual mind with the contemplative

36:29

kind of spirit. So you're right when

36:31

you ask a question, what we're really utilizing

36:33

the question for is not so

36:36

much simply to get an answer, but

36:38

to dislodge all the other

36:41

beliefs that we already have in there. So you

36:43

just start to look at like, am I my thoughts?

36:46

Well, my thoughts are always changing

36:48

there here at the moment, and they're gone. One moment

36:50

I have a nice thought about myself. An hour later,

36:53

I might have a bad thought about myself. It's

36:55

always changing, right, and

36:58

yet there's the sense that something is noticing

37:00

all this change. Good thought, bad

37:02

thought, mediocre thought. Okay,

37:05

I obviously can't be limited

37:07

to those thoughts because they can disappear. I

37:10

might even be able to meditate and get into a space

37:12

temporarily where I have no thought at all, and

37:15

yet whatever I am is still

37:17

there, So I must not be my

37:19

thoughts. Now that's just the

37:21

beginning. But if someone took that

37:24

seriously, I'm

37:27

not my thoughts. Okay,

37:29

Now what are you all of a sudden?

37:32

You have no idea? Right? You literally

37:34

don't know. I'm not bad, I'm

37:36

not good, I'm not right. I'm not wrong. Man,

37:39

woman, someone's son, someone's mother,

37:41

someone's daughter, you know, spiritual

37:43

unspiritual material. All the defining

37:46

characteristics are ways that

37:48

our mind is talking to itself, and

37:51

you are there, whether you're talking to yourself

37:53

in any of those ways or all

37:55

of that ceases, so it starts

37:57

to show you I must

38:00

essentially something about me isn't

38:02

to be found in any construct

38:04

that my mind could come up with. I

38:06

mean, that's a game changer right there, to really

38:09

get it on a deep level. Yeah, it

38:11

is, And I think the challenges to

38:14

know it versus or to understand it

38:16

deeply versus intellectually knowing it.

38:19

That's where we come back to not abdicating

38:21

your authority, and is spending more

38:23

time and inquiry one of the ways

38:26

that that realization

38:28

goes deeper. Well, that's what

38:30

triggers it an unresolved

38:32

deep question is often what triggers

38:34

are awakening. So

38:37

I've seen if all we do is inquire, it

38:40

can get very heavy, right, It

38:43

can easily get just very analytical.

38:46

If all we do is meditate, we

38:48

might get really good at it and get into nice states,

38:50

but there may not be that that element

38:53

that creates that almost like a spark, right,

38:55

a spark of insight. I've found

38:58

that when these two are combined mind, then

39:01

they tend to be stronger than either one of them

39:03

by themselves, you know. So

39:05

that's why I say I often call it a contemplative

39:08

inquiry, so that the inquiry

39:11

is trying to see uproot

39:14

the beliefs and identities that we currently

39:17

have. Right, But

39:19

it's not it's trying to uproot them, but it's allowing

39:22

the deeper revelation of whatever our nature

39:25

maybe to come all on its own. But

39:27

there is a danger with it, of course, any time we utilize

39:30

our mind, there's the danger we'll just start sit around

39:32

thinking about it all day. And you use contemplation

39:34

as a different practice also, So you've

39:36

got meditation inquiry and you talk about

39:38

contemplation. How is contemplation

39:41

different than what we've talked about with meditation

39:43

and inquiry. Contemplation is admittedly

39:46

the least of the three in importance

39:49

actually, but if I didn't see it as important,

39:51

I wouldn't have put it there. But contemplation

39:54

is when you, you you know, if you're if you're reading something

39:56

or listening something and something really strikes

39:59

you. You know, um,

40:01

I mean, spirituality is full of the especially

40:04

in Zen these very sort of striking phrases.

40:07

You know, this isn't a particularly striking one,

40:09

but just to say right that

40:11

who I am isn't to be defined by any

40:13

thought, image, or idea if you just kind

40:16

of contemplated it and you

40:18

didn't really think about but you just contemplated

40:20

the phrase and you just let it be with you.

40:23

And you only do this with things that

40:26

really capture you. You know, when you get captured

40:28

by an idea or a question and

40:30

it kind of seizes you, those

40:33

are the things that are useful for contemplation.

40:36

It's just a phrase that you hang out with and

40:38

it again, whatever that word

40:40

or phrase is, if you just kind of hang

40:42

out with it, it also has a way

40:44

of going deeper than just the

40:47

conscious mind and evoking

40:49

something different because This is what we're attempting to

40:51

do here, right, We're evoking insight

40:53

or revelation. It's what it's all about.

40:56

These are three means of evoking

40:58

insight. H

41:27

I think it's your most recent book is about

41:29

the Jesus story. Yeah, it's

41:31

really you describe it as a Jesus

41:34

story is a map for awakening, and it's a whole

41:36

book, and we're not going to cover it, but maybe

41:38

share a little bit about what you find

41:40

so compelling in the Jesus

41:42

story that ties to everything else

41:44

that we've been talking about. Well, the thing that to me

41:47

one of the most compelling things about the Jesus

41:49

stories here you have at least kind of

41:51

more from an Eastern perspective. Here

41:54

you have an enlightened guy and he goes

41:56

through this life experience and

41:59

almost none if it goes the way that

42:01

one would think it should go, right, certainly

42:03

as disciples like should not end on the

42:05

cross in tortuous,

42:08

agonizing death at a very

42:11

young age. Right, there's already this

42:13

sort of very mysterious

42:15

component, unlike a lot of the

42:17

Eastern view. And that's an

42:20

over simplification of the Eastern view, of

42:22

course, but that Jesus is

42:24

very much a person of the world. In

42:27

the world is no, he's no retiring. Buddha

42:29

doesn't seem to struggle in the same way,

42:31

at least in the stories we hear or depicted

42:34

in the same way, predominantly interested

42:36

in creating a monastic order, because

42:39

most if you listen to all the all the scriptures,

42:42

most of them are oh monks, right,

42:44

He's talking to a whole group of monks. And so

42:47

he taught to a bigger, wider

42:49

spectrum of people than just a bunch of monks.

42:51

But I think a lot of his teaching was around

42:54

that he didn't go and jump into

42:56

the politics of the day. We

42:58

could say, in fact, he was a very

43:01

skilled maneuver of

43:05

you had to be in the good graces of

43:07

certain politicians so that

43:09

they would kind of give you a place to stay and not

43:11

give you trouble. And he was actually

43:13

quite good and skillful at

43:16

working his way through certain

43:18

politics of the time, whereas Jesus

43:20

was the opposite. He's confront of right.

43:23

If he sees his injustice, he's

43:25

going to confront it directly and

43:28

energetically and very vigorously.

43:31

So this is a different archetype

43:33

of enlightenment. One of them is

43:35

a very transcendent archetype,

43:37

right of the aesthetic of the renunciate,

43:40

and then the Jesus story you have almost its

43:43

polar opposite, right,

43:45

the enlightened person as almost

43:47

like as as activist and

43:50

not just a little you know, uh,

43:54

overly nice activist. He could get

43:56

upset, he could get angry, he could get

43:58

afraid. But here's the thing,

44:01

yeah, the same, the thing that throw things

44:04

around. The most surprising

44:06

thing about that story, though, to me, was

44:08

that in almost every other spiritual

44:11

story that I know of, especially

44:13

the well the well known ones in spirituality,

44:16

the enlightened guy or the enlightened woman right

44:19

ends up to be the hero that

44:22

they seem to go through life without ever

44:24

encountering much, if any, of the suffering that most

44:26

everybody else does. They're almost

44:29

hovering above it

44:31

in the stories that were getting once the story

44:33

gets told. But as

44:35

we all know, there's a great difference between

44:37

a story in real life, whether we're ordinary

44:40

person, whether we're enlightened. The enlightened

44:42

person's life is going to be very different than

44:44

the story. Okay, So I've

44:46

just found that very very compelling

44:48

that they kind of this Eastern and Western view

44:51

kind of complement each other and make things

44:53

whole. We touched on this earlier and I wanted

44:55

to get back to it, and this leads this kind of right to

44:57

it, which is and I know this is a question

45:00

at you know, if somebody who has awakened

45:02

is seeing the world in a different way and somebody who's

45:04

not, it's different. But the thing that I'm

45:06

always curious about is

45:09

what is life like for

45:11

awakened people? Because I think

45:14

we have this sense we talked earlier about this idea

45:16

if I want to feel better, right, And I think a

45:18

lot of people, myself included, for a long

45:20

time pursued spirituality

45:23

and believed that somehow the day would

45:25

come when I would transcend

45:28

it all and I wouldn't have

45:30

no more problems. Everything's gonna

45:32

be fine, right. And I think as I've gotten older, I've

45:34

gone that's nonsense, right, I don't believe

45:37

that's true. But what is it that happens

45:39

because it's clearly you

45:41

know you told your story about your stomach troubles.

45:43

I mean, as a person who's awakened, you go

45:45

through challenges in life, life is still there. How

45:48

is it different though than people who are not

45:50

in that state are. It's something I'm always

45:52

very interested in. It minimizes

45:55

the suffering component, right,

45:57

It doesn't get you out of difficulty, So

45:59

no thing I liked about the Jesus story doesn't get

46:01

you out of difficulty, doesn't mean you get

46:03

a You know that life starts treating you

46:06

in a special, nice way. You

46:08

know you're still living life. Everybody

46:10

else is living and you know you

46:13

life is the way life is it. It

46:15

has all the elements of beauty

46:17

and tragedy

46:19

that anybody else's life would be.

46:21

I think, at least on a superficial

46:24

level, that it

46:27

definitely minimizes suffering. You

46:29

don't have this self that you have to

46:32

constantly uphold to yourself

46:34

much less anybody else.

46:36

This thing doesn't have to be protected all the time,

46:38

because often what we're protecting is our idea

46:40

of ourselves and by suffering.

46:43

I think we've made the distinction on the

46:45

show. We certainly, I certainly didn't think it

46:47

up, but between pain and suffering, right, pain

46:49

being You're going to have pain and suffering,

46:51

at least the way that we talk about it is everything

46:54

you layer on top of that, all the stories

46:56

that you layer on top of that is that primarily

46:58

what we're talking to out. Yeah.

47:00

Yeah, it doesn't get you out of pain, but

47:03

it's going to minimize suffering tremendously.

47:06

I mean there's other things that go along with

47:09

that, but a sort of a subjective feelings

47:11

sense that would be I think

47:14

accurate on a perceptual sense.

47:16

It's just seeing life more as a continuous

47:19

whole, as sort of one whole thing that's

47:22

that's moving, that you don't feel separate

47:25

from. So what does that actually mean?

47:27

You know, that feeling of being a human

47:29

being, a little tiny human being in this

47:32

immensity of life. That's

47:34

kind of the ego perspective. And when I say

47:36

ego, I don't mean that as a disparagement.

47:39

It's just a particular way to experience

47:41

the world. One of the difficulties

47:43

of the ego one is is we imagine

47:45

that that's the only way to perceive

47:48

life, right, But when we're

47:50

going through life from the ego perspective,

47:52

we feel like we're one little person in

47:54

this immensity of life and we're

47:57

just negotiated the best we can. And

47:59

some people seem be really good at it, and some people

48:01

seem to be really terrible at it, and

48:04

that's one of the perspectives that really

48:06

kind of falls away, that you don't really feel

48:08

sure there's still a human being moving

48:11

through the world through this immensity,

48:13

but it no longer feels life, doesn't

48:15

feel other anymore. You

48:17

describe awakening as this,

48:19

it's sort of just it happens. It's

48:22

this very spontaneous thing, and it's

48:24

a moment. It's a it's a thing that occurs.

48:27

Is there a graduality in this? Is

48:30

there a you know what I don't

48:32

have that, you know, I'll called the fireworks,

48:34

right, I don't have the fireworks, but

48:37

I'm moving my way towards

48:39

this less and less attachment

48:42

to the thoughts, to the beliefs that you know. Is

48:44

there a graduality in this that is

48:46

useful? Absolutely? I

48:48

mean not every

48:50

awakening is you know, a

48:53

mind blastingly you

48:55

know, explosive moment. It

48:57

can kind of creep up on you. I've had

49:00

bowl even right in there, right at the moment

49:02

of their realization kind of see

49:04

it as like I'll be darn

49:07

really really, you

49:10

know, and somebody else's like they can hardly function,

49:12

you know, they're so their mind so blown out.

49:14

And the nice thing is that at the end of

49:16

the day, how powerful that experiential

49:20

quality is. What I've seen means almost

49:22

nothing, give a year or

49:24

two later. And it's just as

49:26

likely that the person that kind of had it occur

49:29

like I'll be darn. That's

49:31

a real surprise, and someone that had

49:33

a mind blowing you know, it's often

49:36

the person that has the I'll be darn two

49:38

years later. Often it's more significant.

49:41

We've brought sobriety up a few times. But

49:43

you know, in the A A Origin story, right, Bill

49:46

Wilson had one of those shining yes

49:48

moments, right. And but in the A

49:51

A book they in the back they put

49:54

from William James from the Varieties

49:56

of religious experience, they put that, yes,

49:58

some people have that at but most

50:01

of you will have I don't have the

50:03

word right, but a um gradual,

50:06

a gradual spiritual unfolding. Most

50:09

people will have some a gradual spiritual

50:11

unfolding. The again, we run into

50:13

paradox because the suddenness

50:16

of it, like I say, suddenness

50:18

can be I'll be darn, or

50:20

it can be you know, something much much

50:22

much bigger than that. But there is this sort

50:24

of fundamental shift that's that's

50:27

not a progressive thing, it's anymore

50:29

than it's a knowing. Yeah, like

50:31

when you wake up in the morning, when you got you know,

50:33

when you first open your eyes, right,

50:36

either you're awake or

50:38

you're asleep. Yeah, there's groggy

50:41

in between. But even groggy is awake.

50:44

You know, it's not asleep anymore, it's you're

50:46

groggy. So there's there's a there's

50:48

a very definite transition.

50:51

The transition just doesn't always have to feel

50:53

explosive. And after

50:55

the transition, the results for

50:57

some people, like I said, a couple of years

51:00

later, it'll almost be like a dream that they

51:02

almost have no connection to. Although

51:05

I've never met anybody that had a real awakening

51:07

that wouldn't even if they felt

51:09

like a lot of it, that perspective faded,

51:12

that it wasn't still viewed as one of the more

51:15

fundamental moments of their life.

51:18

But it can go it

51:20

maybe not that office right or

51:22

somebody. Usually it's it's somewhere

51:24

in between. You know, it just sort

51:27

of disappears more or less and

51:30

somebody just living in a very abiding

51:32

state of of clarity. Let's

51:34

say, after that moment, the other of

51:37

the people are somewhere in between. Even

51:39

when you know that the self

51:42

separate self as an illusion. It doesn't,

51:44

it doesn't. It's no guarantee that

51:46

that experience of separation isn't

51:48

going to come back. In fact, for overwhelmingly

51:52

most people over it's

51:56

gonna it's gonna come back, and that's

51:58

that's going to be part of their actual nous,

52:00

even after that

52:02

big revelatory moment. So enlightenment

52:05

is a term that means lots of different things to lots of

52:07

different people. But we're sort of talking about

52:09

that. You're you're describing that

52:12

that's not the end of the game. In

52:14

some senses, that's the beginning of a

52:16

different game. Yes, it's the end of

52:18

one game, and it's the beginning of another one. And

52:20

if it's really true, then

52:23

one of the greatest hallmarks of awakening

52:26

is the sense of seeking. Seeking

52:28

Anything the seeking and the seeker

52:30

falls away, that's one

52:33

of the greatest things. And that's an immense relief

52:35

because we don't really understand how psychologically

52:38

weighty that is until it's

52:40

gone. Right, But that doesn't mean just because the seeking

52:42

is gone, that all the truth revelations

52:45

gone. There can still be a lot more to see

52:48

and you can still engage in

52:50

your whole spiritual life, which

52:52

is actually nothing other than life

52:54

itself. But you can still

52:56

engage from that from a point where you're not seeking

52:59

anything. It becomes more an exploration

53:02

than a seeking seeking means I

53:04

want to get from here to their exploration

53:06

is more like I want to see what's going on around

53:09

here. There's certainly a lot of exploration

53:11

and do even after read awakening

53:14

so controversial question that you don't have to answer,

53:16

but too psychedelics play a role

53:19

because they certainly cause what would be described

53:21

as for a lot of people, a spiritual awakening.

53:23

It's brief, it's limited, it's

53:26

induced, but

53:28

it seems to be significant. Although

53:30

I know, you know, I did psychedelics at

53:32

a point in my life where I wasn't seeking truth.

53:34

I was seeking a good time, right, and

53:37

they had a powerful

53:40

thing, But I don't think they influenced the rest of my

53:42

life in a dramatic way. Yeah.

53:45

Yeah, and for some people they do. For

53:47

some people, you know, hallucinogenics have

53:49

been very powerful door openers

53:52

show and I think one of the most beneficial

53:55

things for people that I talked to because it wasn't

53:57

the route sort of I went through, but

54:00

but um not that I haven't had any

54:02

psychedelics, I know what the experience is much

54:04

younger in my life. Um,

54:06

but I can. It's often a door opener

54:09

all of a sudden they realize, my God perception

54:11

is moldible. It's not this

54:13

thing that's frozen solid

54:16

like I thought it was. It's actually much

54:18

more malleable than I ever imagined.

54:20

And sure people can have spiritual awakenings

54:23

when they're under the influence of

54:25

a of a drug. You know, a lot of it

54:27

disappears with the drug, and eventually

54:30

the transition will need to be made. You

54:33

know, less we just we're

54:35

well, only feel like we're in an enlightening state when we're

54:37

high, you know that, which leads to

54:39

some bad consequences. I can attest to you

54:44

keep chasing that. You know, yes, that's

54:46

right, because at the end of the day, even though

54:48

we've been the way we've been talking, it might

54:51

suggest there are experiential

54:53

byproducts that happen. They can

54:55

be happiness, joy, relief, whatever.

54:58

But itself, it's not

55:00

an experience. That's the difference,

55:03

is it. Most everything else is a spiritual experience

55:05

that has a definitive time of beginning,

55:08

middle, and end, and even awakening.

55:11

The experiential byproducts have

55:13

a beginning, middle, and end. But

55:15

what we waken two, that's

55:18

the truth, and that

55:20

truth is there regardless of

55:22

how you feel. So ultimately,

55:25

the awakening isn't about a

55:28

state, even though it has these states

55:30

that are sort of generally speaking associated

55:32

with it, right, which gets

55:34

back to that ego of I want to feel

55:36

that right and what it

55:38

means when I want to feel that, which means I want

55:41

to feel as good as humanly possible,

55:43

preferably all the time, no

55:45

matter what exactly. Yes,

55:49

and we're utilizing that in spirituality.

55:52

But the differences you're just not being held captive

55:54

to it. If you're held captive

55:56

to it, then you're doing anything that gives

55:59

you a temper or a bump in the way

56:01

you feel, and that you know that ends

56:03

up to be a like chasing your

56:05

tail, you know. Well, thank you so much. I

56:07

think that's a great place to wrap up. I've

56:09

really enjoyed the conversation. I've really enjoyed

56:12

getting to read and know your work and listen

56:15

to you, and I think this is a been a great

56:17

episode. So thank you, Thank you, Eric. I've had to

56:19

kick with you if

56:39

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