0:00

You really cannot just sit back

0:02

and think generously. It requires

0:04

action. Welcome

0:14

to the one you feed Throughout time,

0:16

great thinkers have recognized the importance

0:18

of the thoughts we have. Quotes like

0:21

garbage in, garbage out, or you

0:23

are what you think ring true. And

0:25

yet for many of us, our thoughts don't

0:28

strengthen or empower us. We

0:30

tend toward negativity, self pity,

0:32

jealousy, or fear. We see

0:35

what we don't have instead of what we do.

0:37

We think things that hold us back and dampen

0:39

our spirit. But it's not just about

0:42

thinking. Our actions matter. It

0:44

takes conscious, consistent, and creative

0:47

effort to make a life worth living. This

0:49

podcast is about how other people keep themselves

0:52

moving in the right direction, how they

0:54

feed their good wolf m

1:11

Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this

1:13

episode is Barbara Bonner. Barbara

1:15

started her professional life as an art

1:17

historian and since has devoted

1:20

her career to nonprofit management,

1:22

fundraising, and philanthropy. Barbara

1:24

served as vice president of the Bennington

1:26

College and of the Cripple Whose Center for

1:28

Yoga and Health. Since two thousand nine,

1:31

she has had her own consulting company that

1:33

helps nonprofit organizations transform

1:35

their board leadership and philanthropic support.

1:38

Barbara is the author of two books, Inspiring

1:41

Courage and Inspiring Generosity.

1:44

Hey everybody, this is Chris, and before

1:46

we get started on this week's episode, I wanted

1:48

to tell you that a huge avenue

1:50

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3:00

And here's the interview with Barbara Bonner.

3:03

Hi, Barbara, welcome to the show. Thank you

3:05

so much. I love your show. Thank you.

3:07

You've written two books, one called

3:09

Inspiring Courage and the other called

3:12

Inspiring Generosity,

3:14

which are books that I

3:16

would say they're a collection of stories,

3:18

quotes, and poems, one of them about

3:21

courage and the other about generosity. So

3:23

we're gonna talk a little bit about both

3:25

of those characteristics.

3:27

But let's start like we normally do, with the parable

3:30

where there's a grandmother who's talking

3:33

with her granddaughter and she says, in life, there

3:35

are two wolves inside of us that are always

3:37

at battle. One is a good wolf, which

3:39

represents things like kindness and bravery

3:42

and love, and the other is a bad wolf,

3:44

which represents things like greed and

3:46

hatred and fear. The granddaughter

3:48

stops and she thinks about it for a second, and she looks up

3:51

at her grandmother and she says, well, grandmother, which

3:53

one wins? And the grandmother says,

3:55

the one you feed. So I'd like to

3:57

start off by asking you what that parable

4:00

means to you in your life and in the work

4:02

that you do. It's just a wonderful

4:04

parable that I've loved over the years. I've

4:07

heard it ascribed to so many sources,

4:09

from Cherokee to Buddhist uh,

4:12

And it's always really

4:15

resonated deeply with me. I

4:17

think we have a choice in every moment

4:19

and every day, which way are we going to

4:21

go? Uh? For

4:24

me, I would say certainly. As as

4:26

related to our talk later about these

4:28

two books, inspiration has

4:31

been the

4:33

feature of my life that really

4:36

speaks to feeding the good wolf.

4:39

What is it that inspires us in

4:41

our lives, whether it's in

4:44

what we choose to read, what friends

4:46

we choose to spend time with their music

4:48

to listen to. I find even when I walk my dog

4:51

in the morning and evening, can

4:53

we just take the time to really

4:55

be inspired by what's around us? And

4:58

so, as I approached writing two books,

5:01

I thought, what is the most

5:04

inspiring way to do this? What can I really

5:06

give to readers that will that will

5:09

make their lives turn in

5:11

a way that can be with them all the

5:13

time. I think that's so great. That

5:15

is a big part of why

5:18

the show exists. I think was simply

5:21

to be a I think

5:23

reminder is a less

5:26

powerful word than inspiration, but

5:28

to remember or to be inspired

5:30

by the qualities that we

5:32

want to have. And so I think remembering is

5:35

the first piece, like I want to be courageous,

5:38

I want to be generous. And then the second

5:40

piece that you've talked about is the

5:42

more that you can have that, at least for me, said

5:44

in beautiful ways, the more powerful it is.

5:46

And there's lots and lots of beautiful ways

5:48

to say both those things in

5:51

these books. Yes, And I think it also,

5:53

like these two qualities, it's almost a

5:55

muscle that we can exercise. I

5:58

read a wonderful quote from Earl

6:00

Straight at the turn of the year, uh

6:02

when I was sort of thinking about resolutions, and

6:04

she was quoting her mother who said,

6:07

put yourself in the way of beauty. It's

6:09

just wonderful. It's something we actually

6:11

can do, and I would just change it to put

6:13

yourself in the way of inspiration. What can

6:16

we do that brings inspiration into our lives

6:18

every day, not in such a high salutin way,

6:20

but in often a little

6:23

everyday choices they add up and

6:25

suddenly life is different. Yeah, I agree

6:27

with that a lot. I've been thinking lately

6:29

a lot about the role that art

6:32

and beauty plays in you know,

6:34

what we typically think of as self help or personal

6:36

development or whatever. And that's not an area

6:38

that's talked about a whole lot in those in those

6:40

spaces, and and it's such a big part

6:43

for me of how I keep

6:45

myself moving in the right direction is

6:47

you know, particularly music is the biggest one

6:49

for me, but but fiction, literature,

6:52

you know, it's all it's just such a powerful

6:55

way to get outside of myself

6:58

and to transcend sort of my normal,

7:01

mundane thoughts of myself. Yes, I

7:03

listened to your interview with the

7:05

wonderful wil Shwama, whom I admire

7:07

and like so much, is talking

7:10

about just that in reading that

7:13

the the impact of a book. We're different

7:16

at the end of a book than we are at the beginning.

7:18

What is that It's not just the words

7:20

on the page. It is the power of inspiration

7:23

for great books and

7:25

and for me what music I listened

7:27

to when I'm working at home, which is most of the

7:30

time. I suddenly I wasn't paying attention

7:32

to that until a couple of years ago. Now

7:35

I listened to classical music. Well, the work

7:37

changes absolutely.

7:40

So I think there is a poem

7:42

by Hafeez that you like to read that

7:45

might be a place for us to start getting into the books.

7:47

I start each book actually with a

7:50

poem by half These, the Persian poet

7:52

of many centuries ago. So I'll

7:54

start with the generosity one. Even

7:57

after all this time, the sun

7:59

never say as to the earth you owe me. Look

8:02

what happens with a love like that? It

8:04

lights the whole sky. I

8:06

thought it was a wonderful sort of exclamation

8:09

point with which to start the book. Yeah,

8:12

so let's talk about generosity. I

8:14

think we all kind of know what it is.

8:17

But if you are going to maybe

8:19

take us beyond our normal thought

8:21

of generosity deeper into the idea,

8:23

you know, what would you consider as

8:26

ways to think about generosity? And then secondly,

8:29

what would you think are ways

8:31

that we can cultivate it. I

8:33

don't think we actually all look at

8:35

it the same way. And one of my

8:38

real desires in writing the book

8:40

was to reframe

8:43

how we do consider generosity.

8:45

I think so often when we use the term,

8:47

people think of it as giving

8:50

or exchanging material goods

8:52

or money, and I think it's

8:54

not that. I think that's

8:57

often quite a very good thing to do. But there

8:59

can be any motivations for that. It

9:01

can be so that we look good to other

9:03

people. It can be because

9:06

our heart is genuinely open and we want

9:08

to make a difference in the world. And

9:11

I think that as people look at generosity

9:13

in a in a broader way, they

9:15

feel perhaps that it's more accessible to them.

9:18

I think also when we talk about generosity,

9:20

we tend to, at least in the media, focus

9:23

on the philanthropic billionaires

9:26

and not the people leading

9:28

I hate the word, but everyday lives putting

9:30

one foot in front of the other, and yet generosity

9:33

is still their north star and that's how they live

9:35

their lives. So I chose to write

9:37

the fourteen stories in the book about people who

9:39

were not famous and doing just that, and

9:42

that interested me greatly. Yeah,

9:44

I think one of the things about generosity for

9:47

me that I have recognized

9:50

is that it's kind of a chicken

9:52

and egg, right, that that generosity

9:55

engenders feelings of

9:57

having enough and being grateful,

10:00

and then being grateful and thinking I have

10:02

enough in gender, you know, generosity,

10:04

that thing goes both directions for me, and

10:07

so you know, sometimes I'll give money

10:09

to homeless people on the street and occasionally

10:11

someone would be like, you know, that's just pointless, right

10:13

that, And and yes, from a

10:16

spending of charitable dollars,

10:18

there are surely better ways to do it.

10:20

But there's something about in the moment, responding

10:23

to what's in front of me that for

10:25

me helps me remember how fortunate

10:27

I am. So there's some degree of selfish

10:30

motivation in there, but but so much of it is

10:32

driven by that open heart.

10:35

Well, you touch a very important point, and that

10:37

is that I don't think we can actually

10:40

be generous unless we feel

10:42

gratitude. To feel gratitude

10:45

for our own lives, to feel a sense of abundance

10:47

ourselves really allows

10:50

generosity to kind of flow

10:52

from that um without

10:54

it with a sense of sort

10:56

of stinginess or that we just

10:58

don't have enough, we have to find for everything. Uh,

11:02

it's impossible to open your heart and really

11:04

be generous. And I love the example you gave

11:06

people off and say that, oh why are you giving to

11:08

someone at the subway or on the well.

11:11

There's a great quote from Barbara Aaron Reich in the

11:13

book that says, it really doesn't matter

11:15

if the person you give it to is going to

11:17

buy baby formula or a

11:20

bottle of ripple. Uh. You've

11:22

opened your heart and you've

11:24

done what moved you forward, and

11:26

from then on it's up to the

11:29

faiths. One of the things that we talked

11:31

about on the show A lot and means a lot

11:33

to me is the idea that sometimes we

11:36

have to act our way into right thinking. And

11:38

that's why for me, generosity can

11:40

be almost an action sometimes

11:43

that I can make myself do that

11:45

then brings along the gratitude. So sometimes

11:47

I'm grateful and I can be generous, but I found

11:50

that I can use it as a tool to

11:52

bring me along. So it's an action that I take.

11:54

I may not be feeling particularly

11:57

generous or grateful at the moment, but if I

11:59

somehow get my self into a space

12:01

where I act that way, then

12:03

then the feelings follow. When I was recovering

12:06

alcoholic addict and and a A somebody

12:08

used to say all the time, gratitude is an action

12:10

word, you know, from their perspective.

12:12

It wasn't just about a feeling you have that if you're

12:14

grateful, you are doing all these other

12:16

things for other people. And I just think it goes both

12:19

directions. That's very true, and I

12:21

always say that I think both generosity

12:23

and courage our activities. You

12:26

really cannot just sit back

12:28

and think generously. It requires

12:31

action as discourage, and

12:33

it doesn't have to be grand action. We can

12:35

try at it, you know, and do

12:37

the best we can. I tell people who

12:40

complain that they don't they think it's really beyond

12:42

them, so they will just move into a space

12:44

of greater generosity. Try it on for size.

12:47

You'll be surprised what happens. May

12:50

I read a quote from the Generosity book

12:52

that speaks to this. Yeah, it's one of my favorites,

12:54

and it's by a great Buddhist teacher, gallic

12:56

Rempichet my head the pleasure

12:58

of meeting and speaking, And here

13:01

it goes, when you're practicing generosity,

13:04

you should feel a little pinch when you give

13:06

something away that pinches your

13:08

stinging is protesting. If

13:10

you give away your old, worn out coat

13:13

that you wouldn't be caught dead wearing, it's

13:15

not generosity. There's no pinch.

13:18

You're doing nothing to overcome

13:20

your stinginess. You're just cleaning out your closet

13:23

and calling it something else. Giving

13:25

away your coat might keep someone warm,

13:28

but it does not address the problem to

13:30

free ourselves from self cherishing

13:33

and self grasping. Yeah it's

13:36

yeah, yeah, it's. It certainly sets the

13:38

bar at at a different level

13:41

to be generous. It just makes me think of

13:43

I track lots of things in my life just because

13:46

it's it's a way that I have

13:48

learned to sort of make sure I'm taking care of myself.

13:50

And one of the things I, you know, keep track of

13:52

each day as whether I did something that I think is an

13:54

act of kindness. And I'm often in a debate

13:57

with myself about like was

13:59

that really kindness or was that just

14:01

basic decency? Like, you

14:03

know, did I really extend there or

14:06

did I just do like what I

14:08

should do. And it's interesting to think

14:10

of it in that way, in the way he phrases it about

14:12

feeling that little bit of pinch, And

14:15

I think in your dilemma of is

14:17

it kindness, it doesn't really matter.

14:20

It's where it comes from. Does it have a

14:22

sense of pouring forth from inside

14:24

to acting from an open heart. You

14:26

can just tell, you can just tell. Yep.

14:30

That makes me think of we're talking

14:32

about generosity and you said it's not just giving

14:34

of money or even of time.

14:37

The Buddhist idea of loving kindness, of

14:39

a loving kindness meditation where you

14:42

you know, wish everyone well,

14:44

Like I could just do it on a plane or a subway

14:47

or sitting and just kind of go around and

14:49

you know, may you be happy, may you be healthy. And

14:51

again another thing that I can do action

14:53

wise that engenders a great feeling of

14:56

generosity in me as I do it.

14:58

It's a very powerful meta aitation. Loving

15:01

gun is meditation, I think. And

15:03

you're quite right. It happens, uh

15:06

once, once we get sort of used to it and it practiced

15:08

it a bit. It comes up in all

15:11

kinds of moments in our life. I

15:13

was just on four planes and everything

15:15

was delayed and snowstorms and

15:18

a departure lounge is a perfect

15:21

place to work on loving kindness.

15:23

Do you think I could get you to read a poem

15:26

from the Inspiring Courage Book?

15:29

Oh? I could be talked into that, Eric,

15:32

Can I pick? Oh? You may sure? So

15:35

I'd like to have you read page

15:37

thirty eight Sweet Darkness

15:40

by David White. A because

15:42

it's a gorgeous poem, and B because I

15:44

got to see him read it recently at

15:46

an event and it just kind of blew me away. So

15:49

I love David White. I was

15:51

in a workshop with him last year and

15:54

I found he was the very personification

15:56

of inspiration. So

15:58

I'd love to read this poem Sweet Darkness

16:01

by David White. When

16:03

your eyes are tired, the world is

16:05

tired. Also, when your

16:07

vision has gone, no part of the

16:09

world can find you. Time

16:12

to go into the dark, where the night has

16:14

eyes to recognize its own. There

16:17

you can be sure you are not beyond

16:20

love. The dark will be

16:22

your womb tonight. The night

16:24

will give you a horizon further than you

16:26

can see. You must learn one

16:28

thing, the world was made to

16:30

be free, and give up all

16:32

the other worlds except the one to

16:35

which you belong. Sometimes

16:37

it takes darkness and the sweet confinement

16:39

of your a loneness to learn anything

16:42

or anyone that does not bring

16:44

you alive is too small

16:46

for you. So he's really talking

16:49

also about the power of inspiration, what

16:51

brings you alive. That's such

16:53

a beautiful poem. Isn't it wonderful? Yeah,

17:21

we've explored generosity. Let's explore

17:23

courage a little bit more. Talk to me about

17:27

your definition of courage

17:29

or your perspective. Well, I'll start

17:31

with in the book, I wrote

17:34

about fourteen people who lead

17:37

or lead exceptionally courageous

17:40

lives. I'm interested beyond just

17:42

the quality of courage into what it

17:44

means to lead a courageous life. And

17:47

in all of them, first of all, none

17:49

of them agree that they are courageous.

17:52

That seems to come as a definition

17:54

with being courageous. Everyone says I

17:57

didn't do anything special. I only

17:59

did what is put in my path. Anybody

18:01

would have done it. I

18:04

think that happens because a courageous

18:06

act calls out in us

18:08

a sense of our truly authentic

18:11

self. It doesn't feel like we're doing anything

18:13

that's a huge reach. We're just stepping forward

18:16

into who we really are. We sense

18:18

a a need, something

18:20

that has to be done, and we step into

18:22

it without thinking. It's really spontaneous.

18:25

Nobody overthinks courage, and

18:27

the stories time and again have that resonance.

18:30

And then, as I say, it's not

18:32

really about the moment when

18:35

someone goes into a burning building to save

18:37

a child. It's what happens

18:39

to that person afterwards. They're

18:41

living in a new place, in a new orientation,

18:44

the world is different. Courage

18:46

becomes then something that is part of them and

18:48

something uh that sort

18:51

of a lens through which they see their whole

18:53

lives. Uh. It changes life

18:55

and it changes the people around us. You

18:57

also mentioned that a lot of what

19:00

enables these people to be courage is the is

19:02

the life they lived before

19:05

the courageous act, or the way they viewed

19:07

the world or you know that there was

19:10

there was more than just the act of courage to

19:12

who these people were. Yes, I think as

19:14

I get them to look back on their lives,

19:17

which is very hard because as I say, they

19:19

don't fess up to being courageous.

19:21

There is a sense of of authenticity

19:25

in their lives, of being able

19:27

to speak truth to power, of

19:30

uh, taking on an adversary,

19:33

of standing up for the bully in

19:35

the playground when they were a child.

19:37

It's practiced throughout their lives in seemingly

19:40

small ways. And then something,

19:42

an event happens in which perhaps

19:44

the grand gesture is called forth. But

19:47

they can look back and say, oh, that happened,

19:50

Yeah, that happened. That

19:52

was certainly true of Tim da Christopher,

19:54

who is a great environmental

19:57

activist who went to prison

19:59

for two years for his environmental

20:01

activism. He says he's not courageous

20:03

at all, but in fact he was always just

20:05

speaking his truth and then he got

20:07

to really speak it very loudly and

20:10

pay for it and pay for it. Yeah.

20:12

Another inspiring there's

20:14

lots of inspiring stories. Is there's

20:16

no way I'll get this said right. But Edith

20:19

and Lowett, Yes, lutu loot

20:23

loot Velman's is that correct? Is

20:25

correct? You tell us a little bit about them. Well,

20:28

I'm happy to because they're both very

20:31

close friends and it was such a

20:33

joy to be able to shine a spotlight on them,

20:36

although they're both very modest and they fought

20:38

me a bit. Uh. Edith

20:41

is now ninety two, UH

20:43

and she's Dutch. She was in

20:47

Holland as World

20:49

War two broke out and her

20:52

family was taken away to concentration

20:55

camps. She was hidden by a Protestant

20:57

family. Uh.

21:00

And as it happened, uh, the

21:02

family housed a Nazi soldier

21:04

in the adjoining room. So she lived in

21:06

that hiding place for a

21:09

year and a half. She quite coincidentally

21:11

went into hiding the day that and Frank went

21:13

into hiding, so she would say

21:16

that that experience did not really require

21:18

courage. But she's lived her life

21:20

since then with great courage,

21:23

with great determination, wanting

21:25

to make the most of life, wanting to be

21:27

optimistic and hopeful and uh

21:30

and became a psychologist and

21:33

helped others. Her husband

21:35

Loot. The day that the Nazis moved

21:37

into Amsterdam,

21:39

he got hold of a small

21:42

lifeboat that could take

21:44

four people, and he pulled

21:47

together forty four close

21:50

friends and neighbors Jews who were

21:52

going to be clearly carried away,

21:55

and they all got in the boat and headed

21:57

out into the North Sea, not knowing that they

21:59

would live. They were picked up by a British

22:02

boat the day after. Tremendous courage,

22:05

and then two years later Lute

22:07

was part of the Death March of

22:09

the River Kuai in Thailand for two

22:11

years as a prisoner of the Japanese. So

22:14

you would think that someone like that would become

22:17

dissolutioned or bitter or hard.

22:19

Instead, he was one of the most

22:22

humorist, gracious, optimistic

22:25

people I've ever met. Became

22:28

quite ironically the chairman

22:31

of Hill and Nolton, the great PR

22:33

firm, and really invented the field of

22:35

public relations. It's interesting.

22:38

It's always been interesting to me what terrible

22:40

experiences like the ones that they both went through

22:43

can do to you. And in both of them it

22:45

um just increased their courage

22:47

to live wonderful, meaningful lives.

22:50

Yeah, I'm very much fascinated by

22:52

what causes some people to come

22:54

out of very difficult experiences

22:57

better, stronger, um using

22:59

them grist for the mill, and

23:02

what causes other people to um

23:05

not be able to do that. We hear about

23:07

post traumatic stress, but they also something

23:10

we don't talk much about as post traumatic growth,

23:12

which happens in people. I mean, that's another

23:15

phenomenon that's just not discussed. But but

23:17

trauma can be or a very difficult

23:19

situation can be a catalyst

23:22

to tremendous growth. It can. And

23:24

we hear so often that or I

23:26

have in researching both books that uh,

23:29

you know, a good and happy and secure

23:31

childhood is the basis for being

23:34

able to live into both qualities. I

23:36

don't think it's true at all. I think

23:38

it it can be quite the opposite.

23:41

Um, I don't know what it is but it's

23:43

not that. There's

24:07

a quote in the Courage Book

24:09

that I really like because I think it

24:12

it spins this a little bit on its

24:14

head, and it says, courage is what it

24:16

takes to stand up and speak. Courage

24:19

is also what it takes to sit down

24:21

and listen. Winston Churchill,

24:23

Well, we don't. We don't do enough listening, that's

24:26

for sure, particularly in this world of ours

24:28

right now. I think in both generosity

24:31

and courage, listening is

24:33

a very key quality. How

24:36

can we know what's called for possibly

24:39

unless we listen. And yet so

24:42

much of our contemporary culture is

24:44

about talking, being forceful,

24:47

getting the last word in. I

24:49

find, particularly in my own business life, which

24:52

is working with institutions largely raising

24:54

money, that people think that that's an

24:56

area in which you just have to be smarter

24:58

than the last guys say the last word,

25:01

be aggressive. My experience has been

25:03

the best listener wins the day. Yeah.

25:06

I think that is the case in in a

25:08

lot of different fields. Certainly in the sales

25:10

work I've done in previous

25:12

parts of my life that's definitely been sort

25:15

of the secret weapon. And in leadership, I

25:17

mean, when we look at at all

25:19

forms of leadership. I'm thinking now of government.

25:22

Uh, we did have quite a wonderful

25:24

president in our last president who was

25:26

capable of listening and being

25:29

compassionate and really hearing. I

25:31

hope that happens again. Yes,

25:34

I think you know we're talking about where

25:36

did these qualities come from? Page

25:39

five, the Buddhist teacher Pema Cho

25:41

Dren says, deep down in the human

25:44

spirit, there is a reservoir of

25:46

courage. It's always available,

25:48

always waiting to be discovered. I

25:51

think that's true. It also

25:53

speaks to people who can't explain why

25:55

they're courageous, that there is something

25:58

simply untapped that lives

26:00

there that at a certain moment

26:02

is called forth Um.

26:04

That's always been fascinating to me.

26:07

And when I read hers her quote,

26:09

I think that's true. There's a wonderful

26:11

quote. While I'm unquotes, then we'll go where you

26:13

want we We started the first

26:15

book with a Huffy Is quote. Here's

26:17

here's one that starts off this book.

26:20

Fear is the cheapest room in the house. I'd

26:23

like to see you living in better conditions.

26:26

So true, like, if

26:28

we could choose, why would we choose Yep,

26:32

And there's a as you're talking. It strikes

26:35

me that Pema Chodren quote made me think

26:37

of this, that there's a correlation between

26:40

generosity and courage.

26:42

I think. I think there is a you

26:45

could say it's an openness of spirit, but it

26:47

has it also has something to do with feeling

26:49

like you have enough and you are

26:51

enough, or you are strong enough. I

26:54

think that there's a there's a strong correlation

26:56

between the two two. To

26:59

really act courageously, you

27:01

are your your your

27:03

orientation is turned outward, your

27:05

interest, you feel connected to, uh,

27:08

the larger world. You're basically

27:11

altruistic in wanting to You're not

27:13

You're not doing a courageous act because it

27:15

feels good to you. You're doing it because it is

27:17

for someone else. It has a greater impact.

27:20

That is an act of generosity. Um.

27:23

And likewise, to be truly

27:26

generous at times, you have to

27:28

have a good deal of courage. People

27:30

will try and talk you out of it. Um,

27:33

people will put you down for it. Uh.

27:35

It's something that comes from

27:37

your own deepest convictions, and

27:40

sometimes you have to stand up to people

27:42

who are going to try and talk you out of that.

27:44

Yeah. I found that to be an interesting challenge

27:48

in my own life. That I just look at, and I

27:50

think it's a comment on culture in general,

27:53

but also a comment on me. Is it all? Occasionally,

27:56

you know, in a in a in a work situation

27:58

or any kind of situation, I'll think, like, I

28:01

want to ask that person if they're doing okay,

28:03

or I want to say something really nice to that

28:05

person, or I want to and there's a

28:08

fear there, there's a hesitation,

28:10

and and so sometimes it does. You know, it

28:12

does take courage just to even for me to

28:15

do the little silly thing

28:17

that is very generous but seems like,

28:19

for whatever reason, is not easy

28:21

to do. I know exactly what you mean,

28:24

and I think it speaks to um

28:26

to both qualities being

28:29

ones that can be practiced, you

28:31

can practice in very small ways. I've

28:34

generally found that reaching

28:36

out to someone, uh,

28:39

with a generous act or a courageous

28:41

act is very rarely

28:43

not Uh. It may

28:46

not be acknowledged, but it's always appreciated.

28:49

Uh. And why not? What's the

28:51

alternative? You know? Yep?

28:53

If we want to live lives of greater meaning

28:55

than just step forward into it. Also,

28:58

I think it doesn't neither one has to be

29:00

the grand act. Uh. I

29:02

tell people just move in that direction. Just

29:04

move in that direction. YEA,

29:07

Well that's a that's a refrain

29:10

on this show all the time. Tiny steps,

29:12

steps, baby steps, you know, just

29:15

do something. Start as small

29:17

as you need to, but

29:19

start. I agree. In

29:22

the Courage book, there's another quote. I

29:24

don't have it in front of me, but it's a quote I've always

29:26

loved, which is like, you know, a ship

29:29

is safe in Harvard, but that's

29:31

not what ships are for exactly exactly.

29:34

We take such comfort in our security

29:37

in life. Uh. And then there

29:39

can be sort of a lightful moment

29:41

when we realize that, oh, it's

29:43

only once around the track and life is really

29:46

two lead a

29:49

life of meaning, uh. And

29:51

the lead a life of meaning means you have to put

29:53

yourself at risk. You have to step forward.

29:56

You have to make those gestures

29:58

small or large, Uh,

30:00

that resonate with you

30:03

and with the people around you. So how about

30:05

we wrap up with you reading

30:08

another poem of your choosing from

30:10

either book. It's a page and a half.

30:12

If we have time for that. Do the Wendell

30:14

Berry poem. It's the one of it. It's the one

30:16

that people tend to sort of swoon over when

30:19

I read it. In in book talks.

30:21

So if if that's good, I will.

30:23

It speaks to many qualities beyond courage.

30:26

But to me, I put it up front because

30:28

it is kind of the

30:31

the gong that sounds what I

30:33

want to sound as we start. Manifesto

30:36

The Mad Farmer, Liberation Front by

30:38

Wendell Berry, Love

30:41

the quick, profit, the annual raise,

30:43

vacation with pay, want

30:45

more of everything ready made. Be

30:48

afraid to know your neighbors, and to

30:50

die, and you will have a window

30:52

in your head. Not even your future

30:55

will be a mystery anymore. Your

30:57

mind will be punched in a card and

30:59

shut away in a little drawer. When

31:02

they want you to buy something, they'll call you.

31:05

When they want you to die for profit, they'll

31:07

let you know. So, friends,

31:10

every day, do something that won't compute.

31:13

Love the Lord, love the world, work

31:16

for nothing, Take all that

31:18

you have and be poor. Love

31:20

someone who does not deserve it. Denounce

31:23

the government and embrace the flag.

31:26

Hope to live in that free republic

31:28

for which it stands. Give

31:31

your approval to all you cannot

31:33

understand. Praise ignorance

31:36

for what man is not encountered, he's

31:38

not destroyed. Ask the questions

31:40

that have no answers. Invest

31:42

in the millennium plants sequoias.

31:45

Say that your main crop is the forest

31:48

that you did not plant, that you will

31:50

not live to harvest. Say

31:52

that the leaves are harvested when they have rotted

31:54

into mold. Call that profit

31:56

prophesy such returns. Put

31:59

your faith in the two inches of hummus

32:01

that will build under the trees every

32:03

thousand years. Listen

32:06

to carry on. Put your ear

32:08

close and hear the faint chattering of

32:10

the songs that are to come. Expect

32:13

the end of the world. Laugh.

32:16

Laughter is immeasurable. Be

32:18

joyful, though you've considered all the facts.

32:21

So long as women do not go cheap

32:24

for power, Please women more

32:26

than men. Ask yourself,

32:28

will this as by a woman satisfied

32:31

to bear a child? Will this disturb

32:33

the sleep of a woman near to giving birth?

32:36

Go with your love to the fields, Lie

32:39

down in the shade, Rest your head

32:41

in her lap. Swear allegiance

32:43

to what is nighest your thoughts. As

32:46

soon as the generals and the politicos

32:48

can predict the motions of your mind, lose

32:51

it, leave it as a sign

32:53

to mark the false trail the

32:55

way you didn't go. Be like the Fox

32:58

who makes more tracks than next the Serai.

33:00

So I'm in the wrong direction practice

33:03

resurrection. Yeah, I love that. Every

33:05

day do something that doesn't compute. I

33:07

do too. That's so good

33:10

and so hard to do sometimes. Yeah, well

33:12

it's nice to get permission for it, isn't it.

33:14

Yes? Yes, well, Barbara,

33:17

thank you so much for taking the time

33:19

to come on. I really enjoyed both books. As

33:21

I mentioned earlier, they're They're beautiful books,

33:24

lots of quotes, poems. They're more than

33:26

just like a book you sit down and read. They're the kind

33:28

of thing that you can pull off the shelf, look at get

33:30

inspiration from. So thank you so much

33:32

for the books and coming on the show. My great

33:34

pleasure. Thank you, Eric, take care, bye

33:37

bye.

33:54

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